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frede

pilothouse boats

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I'm interested in pilothouse sailboats, both production and custom, and thought I would start a thread for people to post examples they find particularly successful. Here is one of my favorites among production boats, the Vilm 41ds designed by Judel/Vrolijk.

 

post-3637-0-52214100-1420742377_thumb.jpg

 

 

post-3637-0-21404000-1420742558_thumb.jpg

 

 

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This pilot house boat sails just fine. I am also working on a PH version of Dave Coopers new 43'er. I see no problem designing a PH boat that both sails and motors well.

Marlin3_zps23513c1d.jpg

Marlin5_zps8eda6af6.jpg

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This one seems to sail well:

 

100_3501.JPG

 

Even when pushed hard by Bob and Tricky in 25+ knots, gusting to 32 as a series of squalls passed through.

 

100_3591.JPG

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The boat in the opening post looks like a raised saloon boat to me, not a pilot house. To me these are two different things.

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3902613_-1_20120420154716_0_0.jpg&w=600&

 

How 'bout ugly. Seabird 37 PH. We used to say: You have to roll down the windows to reef.

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Better?

 

SCEPTRE41_info_Page_1.jpg

Great boats. I new the designer/builder very well. It's a PH but the low profile made it difficult to see effectively as a pilothouse inside steering. Later models forego the lower station completely and used a good autopilot w/a jogger. A lot of them have a hard dodgers as an after market item. I'd have one those in a nano second and have kept there value well.

 

Sorta the precursor of the DS models that popped up over the past 15-20 years. Now boats shows are lousy with them. I talked to Hein (the designer) in '81 what I thought and besides being a dutchman he was a smart innovator without getting weird about it. I told him that i think you have a winner Hein. It did IMHO.

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Better?

 

SCEPTRE41_info_Page_1.jpg

Great boats. I new the designer/builder very well. It's a PH but the low profile made it difficult to see effectively as a pilothouse inside steering. Later models forego the lower station completely and used a good autopilot w/a jogger. A lot of them have a hard dodgers as an after market item. I'd have one those in a nano second and have kept there value well.

 

Sorta the precursor of the DS models that popped up over the past 15-20 years. Now boats shows are lousy with them. I talked to Hein (the designer) in '81 what I thought and besides being a dutchman he was a smart innovator without getting weird about it. I told him that i think you have a winner Hein. It did IMHO.

 

He wasn't really all that innovative - there were all kinds of deckhouse/pilothouse boats built around here back then - they are perfect for the rain.

 

Hein just did the best job of it.

 

Remember the Discovery 42 & 47, the Cooper 316, 353, 416 & 535, the Endurance 35 by the DeKleers, that ugly Seabird you posted, the Saturnas, Pacific Pilots etc. etc.?

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I'm not talking about that particular design being innovative but just the way of doing things during from the get go to build. Through Crown 34's to the 43. A lot of his ideas were smart and elegant for the simplicity. "I should of thought of it" smart. Maybe he copied some stuff but a lot of it stuck.

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Thanks Valcour. I do like the look of BJ's PH boat. It's tough in 35' but not impossible.

 

Bob, there was a 40 PH (Baba or Panda maybe) sitting at a dock near us for a couple months. In 40' you really had the room to make it really work.

 

But I do really like what you did with ours.

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I believe the pilothouse boat that sails best (when we restrict ourselves to a non-Maxi size) would be the Luffe 43 DS

 

78e63ff3778bd7bdd0cfc1ccd5e9c82b.640X480

 

I know no other pilothouse (deck salon to be more precise) with such a racy gear...

Slightly underwhelming layout, though...

 

 

full.jpg

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I really like the Babas, Bob got those proportions just right.

The Sceptre 41 is another favourite, although this particular example is a little...flashy (to be polite). It's also at the very top of the price range at $219k CAD.

You'd have to factor in a paint job in addition to the purchase price unless you were either colour blind or didn't give a shit.

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1988/Sceptre-41-2773118/Sidney/Canada#.VK71B3uBuT8

 

4840685_20141010105055717_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

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It was a foggy day as we left Pt. Townsend to cross the strait to Victoria. This would be our first crossing. The winds start out moderate to light, so we are motor-sailing out of Townsend as we set up on a port tack, course set a little higher than Victoria. Soon the engine is off because the winds are up to 17-20 or so. Brigadoon tears along well, in the moderate swell, her genoa and main pulling is to just over 7 kts. It's foggy and getting colder but the wind is strong and driving us well.

 

All the sails are trimmed right and the boat is pulling well to windward.

 

I step into the pilot house, placing my hand in the inside wheel just as Kerry hands me a hot cup of tea. My environment goes from roaring noisy and cold to almost dead quiet and conformtable. All I can hear is the bow of Brigadoon cleaving the swell, along with the solid breeze in the rigging.

 

I sit in the pilot house chair, sip my tea and enjoy the next few hours; warm, dry and with a boat driving well.

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48landb1p01.jpg

48landb1p02.jpg

A guy on my dock has one of these. He's living aboard and keeping it afloat but the motor's shot and it hasn't left the slip in ~5 years. I'd love to see what she's like out on the water.

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autoimage-5516_BoatPic_Main.jpg-400-300.

 

swin ranger - perfecto at 22 feet

 

Dylan,

I'll see you and raise you a CP23:

23ph-drawing.png

 

https://www.com-pacyachts.com/trailerable-cruisers/compac-23ph.html

 

 

surely that boat falls over when the tide goes out

 

the Swin ranger stays upright - an ideal place from which to observe birds

 

http://cache.apolloduck.com/image_bin/268770_7.jpg268770_7.jpg

 

D

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I was working on Dave's boat and I had this idea, how would it work with a pilot house. I'd keep as much cockpit as I could and try to retain good sailing performance but I wanted a place to get in out of the rain and operate the boat.

Cooperpilothouse1-8-15_zps8e3c7171.jpg

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autoimage-5516_BoatPic_Main.jpg-400-300.

 

swin ranger - perfecto at 22 feet

 

Dylan,

I'll see you and raise you a CP23:

23ph-drawing.png

 

https://www.com-pacyachts.com/trailerable-cruisers/compac-23ph.html

 

 

surely that boat falls over when the tide goes out

 

the Swin ranger stays upright - an ideal place from which to observe birds

 

http://cache.apolloduck.com/image_bin/268770_7.jpg268770_7.jpg

 

D

Well, you got me there but can the Swin do this?

 

23-PH-Launch.jpg

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Here is the layout to the PH version of Dave's 43.56'er. I drew this with myself in mind. Not my bank balance.

Cooperphlayout_zps90b15e61.jpg

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Here is the layout to the PH version of Dave's 43.56'er. I drew this with myself in mind. Not my bank balance.

Cooperphlayout_zps90b15e61.jpg

The terminology is probably a little fuzzy, but isn't that more of a deck saloon rather than a pilothouse?

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I believe the pilothouse boat that sails best (when we restrict ourselves to a non-Maxi size) would be the Luffe 43 DS

 

78e63ff3778bd7bdd0cfc1ccd5e9c82b.640X480

 

I know no other pilothouse (deck salon to be more precise) with such a racy gear...

Slightly underwhelming layout, though...

 

 

full.jpg

I'd challenge that.

 

The Elliott Tourer series has produced some awesome pilothouse cruisers.

http://elliott-marine.com/e1450t.html

http://www.elliott-marine.com/pdfs/elliott14tourer/idealhappiness.pdf

Elysium (the one in the above link) now has a carbon rig and race sails. A pretty awesome boat

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But you can't see forward out of that very pretty Tourer series. From inside that windshied window would be a 6" slit. For my needs you have to be able to see forward enough to weave your way through the logs of Puget Sound. That means, due to ergonomics, the PH has to be a bit higher than your eye would prefer.

 

Legs:

Not for me. That layout has an inside steering station and good visibility forward. That makes it a "pilot house" in my book.

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Bob, do you mean like you did here?

 

PANO_20120520_102236.jpg

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Jenner,

 

That photo of your is a great summation of this whole thread and just how Bob gets the gist of this sort of thing. (And many others as well...) I could have rendered this view, but wait, that design was well before I started doing that sort of stuff. Funny how Bob can do all that 3d trickery in his head and has been doing so for decades before the 3d tools were even available. One of the reasons why I love collaborating with him on the 2d/3d level. I do a killer render and then I realize that Bob has already seen it in his head!

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Norfolk Rebel Sailing Tugboat

nrbybob.jpg

 

 

Fisher 37:

307.jpg

 

Nordhavn

35.jpg

 

 

LOA

57' 5"

LWL

52' 6"

BEAM

16' 7"

Draft

7' 00"

Displacement:

95,000 lbs.

 

So it's SA/D is about 4?

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Bolger Motorsailer



(I'm not sure if the yellow blotches are actually on the boat, or if they are an artifact of the scan.)

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(I'm not sure if the yellow blotches are actually on the boat, or if they are an artifact of the scan.)

 

It's a scanning issue, they should have used a half-tone filter while scanning.

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I was working on Dave's boat and I had this idea, how would it work with a pilot house. I'd keep as much cockpit as I could and try to retain good sailing performance but I wanted a place to get in out of the rain and operate the boat.

Cooperpilothouse1-8-15_zps8e3c7171.jpg

 

Bob, you have ruined my week. I had assumed that there was no good way to design a good looking pilothouse boat around 40 feet, and now you post this? Even the interior arrangement is just as I would have it. I see you also stretched my 40' to 43.56', but that's what I expected ;-)

 

Beautiful boat.

 

Starkers

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Here is a 1650 Elliott Tourer.

IMHO it seems to come across as being a neurotic design.

For such a large yacht it produces very little "liveaboardability".

One settee a longitudinal galley and a bit of nav.

Nice hull and rig but I still prefer the hard dodger option that enables you to keep a traditional interior lay out.

QvnV8hD.jpg

Uw1Ztgu.jpg

Vya8wLL.jpg

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I was working on Dave's boat and I had this idea, how would it work with a pilot house. I'd keep as much cockpit as I could and try to retain good sailing performance but I wanted a place to get in out of the rain and operate the boat.

Cooperpilothouse1-8-15_zps8e3c7171.jpg

Bob, you have ruined my week. I had assumed that there was no good way to design a good looking pilothouse boat around 40 feet, and now you post this? Even the interior arrangement is just as I would have it. I see you also stretched my 40' to 43.56', but that's what I expected ;-)

 

Beautiful boat.

 

Starkers

+1

 

To my eye, the PH version looks better than the original.

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I believe the pilothouse boat that sails best (when we restrict ourselves to a non-Maxi size) would be the Luffe 43 DS

 

78e63ff3778bd7bdd0cfc1ccd5e9c82b.640X480

 

I know no other pilothouse (deck salon to be more precise) with such a racy gear...

Slightly underwhelming layout, though...

 

 

full.jpg

 

This is a great boat I didn't know. Thanks for sharing!

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Almost forgot these things. Used to work on one - Nauticats. Should maybe be NautiBoxes?

2004nauticat44PH.jpg

 

Nauticat-44_thumbnail_227835_5_800_14169

 

Island Packet:

156192.jpg

 

And then someone realized it need not have sails

132442_102_pic.jpg

 

Cape Dory

2199809_1.jpg?1270933766000

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Here is a 1650 Elliott Tourer.

IMHO it seems to come across as being a neurotic design.

For such a large yacht it produces very little "liveaboardability".

One settee a longitudinal galley and a bit of nav.

Nice hull and rig but I still prefer the hard dodger option that enables you to keep a traditional interior lay out.

Elliot comes from a very different design past to most cruising designers, as a kiwi who started with sporty trailer sailers like the elliot 7s and 780s

Andrew%20Barney%20flying%20through%20the

554054_583810154995795_1799804379_n%20Sm

 

and bigger racing boats like Maximus and Mari Cha

sport2_420x278.jpg

Maximus_small.jpg

 

I am not surprised his interior layout is different, but I am sure it works for its owners

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Here is a 1650 Elliott Tourer.

IMHO it seems to come across as being a neurotic design.

For such a large yacht it produces very little "liveaboardability".

One settee a longitudinal galley and a bit of nav.

Nice hull and rig but I still prefer the hard dodger option that enables you to keep a traditional interior lay out.

Elliot comes from a very different design past to most cruising designers, as a kiwi who started with sporty trailer sailers like the elliot 7s and 780s

 

 

 

and bigger racing boats like Maximus and Mari Cha

 

 

 

I am not surprised his interior layout is different, but I am sure it works for its owners

Here are two interiors.

Same size yacht.

Elliot and Salona.

I would personally go the traditional lay out rather than have the size and storage constrained pilot vista.

avMYhUc.jpg

7B2NIph.jpg

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The Salona you show an interior picture of isn't a pilot house yacht, so I am unsure of what you are getting at?

The elliots are, I expect, some of the lightest PH cruising boats around, so will appeal to a certain niche of sailors

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The Elliot's allow you to see what is going on outside, even when inside. The traditional layout has you boxed down below?

 

I have stayed about that 1650, celadon, but not sailed on her. Beautiful boat, sails VERY well (beat us anyway). Have done a few thousand miles aboard a 1450, if I was ever thinking about a keelboat, rather than cat, I'd want of of those. It's like a cruising cat with one hull....

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In 2012 SWMBO and I delivered our buddies Cabo Rico 400 from Casco Bay to Essex. Much to our surprise, something that looked like a bathtub didn't sail like one.

 

IMG_0089.jpg

 

IMG_0578.jpg

 

A problem if the design puts all the seating within the deckhouse is you loose all the available space under the sidedecks, which ends up as storage only.

 

IMHO Holman & Pye designs are the prettiest deck saloons. eg: Oyster 485

 

Oyster485.jpg

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Don't be silly ranti. MARY CHA is a Briand design.

As for cruising designer doing high performance boats, nothing new there.

ICONVanIsle_zpsac860a3a.jpg

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I was working on Dave's boat and I had this idea, how would it work with a pilot house. I'd keep as much cockpit as I could and try to retain good sailing performance but I wanted a place to get in out of the rain and operate the boat.

Cooperpilothouse1-8-15_zps8e3c7171.jpg

Bob, you have ruined my week. I had assumed that there was no good way to design a good looking pilothouse boat around 40 feet, and now you post this? Even the interior arrangement is just as I would have it. I see you also stretched my 40' to 43.56', but that's what I expected ;-)

 

Beautiful boat.

 

Starkers

+1

 

To my eye, the PH version looks better than the original.

 

To me the rake of the pilothouse aft harmonizes nicely with the bow, which has a beautifully subtly spooned shape. The stern, which looks a bit abrupt in profile view, becomes less prominent.

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Bob, you have ruined my week. I had assumed that there was no good way to design a good looking pilothouse boat around 40 feet, and now you post this? Even the interior arrangement is just as I would have it. I see you also stretched my 40' to 43.56', but that's what I expected ;-)

 

Beautiful boat.

 

Starkers

+1

 

To my eye, the PH version looks better than the original.

 

 

To me the rake of the pilothouse aft harmonizes nicely with the bow, which has a beautifully subtly spooned shape. The stern, which looks a bit abrupt in profile view, becomes less prominent.

 

 

To my eye, the length of PH makes it too dominant.

 

I'd like to see a hard dodger version.

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The Dutch love em.... most I see have the familiar horizontal tricolour of red, white, and blue flying off the stern..

 

We met a lovely couple on one yellowish superstructre deep blue hull....while docked in Utsira, Rogaland. Can't remember the exact make but it was a 60ft+ vessel, and they'd sold all and had sailed extensively higher Lat's and all of Europe for five years or so. They wanted to sell it soonest and buy a cottage and retire to a shore based life... they were both defo well into there 70s..

 

K&M... make somet similar....

 

Luxury-yacht-Anabel-sailing.jpg

 

http://www.charterworld.com/news/tag/km-yachtbuilders

 

 

And back in June while on that Najad delivery… there were loads more of other PH boats sittin’ pretty in the first marina as you enter Ijmuiden. Not sure how they fair in warmer climes?…. But solidly safe they be…

 

A one off custom build (Stephens Waring) in wood SV Isobel..is on sale in the USA at $2m dollars a tad pricey, the interior is great for a couple but not if they have married friends…that like to spoon in a berth…

 

A vid’ here:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS4aR2eP8LY&feature=youtu.be

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^^^

I have an American friend who's married to a Dutch woman. There were post-docs in the US and trying to decide whether to accept professorships in Seattle or Amsterdam. They looked at the historical weather data and he claims they were nearly identical in solar irradiance, rainfall, and temperature. I haven't confirmed but having lived in Seattle for 25 years and having visited Amsterdam over a dozen times, I'm inclined to believe it. Both cities also love their pilothouse yachts.

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Bob, do you mean like you did here?

 

PANO_20120520_102236.jpg

For such a low profile that's a pretty nice view. Nice.

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Legs brought up a good subject yesterday concerning whether a boat was a PH boat or a "raised salon" boat. Not sure it matters but as I walked the dog last night I did some deep thinking. I can remember many years ago, 40 years ago, maybe more, when we had "raised salon" boats but we just called them "boats". A few came to mind:

 

Bill Garden's OCEANUS

Kettenburg K-50

Calkins 50

Islander Freeport 41

Seaborn's SEA FEVER and HELENE

Garden's DISCVOVERY, DECISION, PENIEL and ZIA

 

And, those are just West Coast boats. We didn't have the term "raised salon" back then. But they were not considered PH boats. My point is, I guess, that the type we call a "deck salon" is far from being a new type.

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Cape Dory

2199809_1.jpg?1270933766000

 

What cape Dory is that? From that angle the hull looks very similar to my IP31.

post-37611-0-94408400-1420814747_thumb.jpg

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I agree, the dutch are very good at PH. Nice to see how each of these three designers finds his unique answer to the task, top-down: Koopmans, Dykstra, van de Stadt

200547_16c.jpg

Bestewind-50-Yacht-Princess-of-Tides-des

1.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

The Dutch love em.... most I see have the familiar horizontal tricolour of red, white, and blue flying off the stern..

 

We met a lovely couple on one yellowish superstructre deep blue hull....while docked in Utsira, Rogaland. Can't remember the exact make but it was a 60ft+ vessel, and they'd sold all and had sailed extensively higher Lat's and all of Europe for five years or so. They wanted to sell it soonest and buy a cottage and retire to a shore based life... they were both defo well into there 70s..

 

K&M... make somet similar....

 

Luxury-yacht-Anabel-sailing.jpg

 

http://www.charterworld.com/news/tag/km-yachtbuilders

 

 

And back in June while on that Najad delivery… there were loads more of other PH boats sittin’ pretty in the first marina as you enter Ijmuiden. Not sure how they fair in warmer climes?…. But solidly safe they be…

 

A one off custom build (Stephens Waring) in wood SV Isobel..is on sale in the USA at $2m dollars a tad pricey, the interior is great for a couple but not if they have married friends…that like to spoon in a berth…

 

A vid’ here:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS4aR2eP8LY&feature=youtu.be

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Joli:

I think that is because often the PH is an add on to a normal layout below. That takes a big chunk of available cockpit area. Under way everyone wants to be in the PH if it's too cold or wet on deck. On Dave's PH version of his boat I kept the cockpit long but I started from there.

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yacht-Dharma-nav-img-4.jpg

Beautiful lines on a modern boat. Looks fast, too. Does it have a wheel inside? What is it?

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yacht-Dharma-nav-img-4.jpg

Beautiful lines on a modern boat. Looks fast, too. Does it have a wheel inside? What is it?

 

It's Farr-Nauta 95ft Dharma, Southern Wind Shipyard. Made in E-Glass and Kevlar, she has been around the world and to Antarctica.

 

Does not have a wheel inside, also you don't really pilot from down below as the windows are too high. There's nav station and all kind of autopilot control down there. Here is a video I took during a delivery:

 

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Given a choice between a pilot house with a small cockpit and a full cockpit boat with a canvas enclosure I would opt for the later. An enclosure can be opened or removed, not much can be done with a small cockpit.

 

That said, I do understand the reasoning behind the pilot house in colder climates.

 

Palm trees or ice bergs......

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Matagi,

nice photos

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I guess you would call that a deck saloon. That's a pretty exposed steering position for Antarctica, no? Or is there enough visibility and steering below? I'd imagine you'd wan't to be on deck when problems arise.

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I guess you would call that a deck saloon. That's a pretty exposed steering position for Antarctica, no? Or is there enough visibility and steering below? I'd imagine you'd wan't to be on deck when problems arise.

Well, it's not the most protected cockpit I've sailed on, but it's still surrounded by culmings and has safeseating/steering arrangements.

I don't know if it's suitable for antarctica, but they went there without losing crew

 

yacht-Dharma-nav-img-5.jpg

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Cape Dory

2199809_1.jpg?1270933766000

What cape Dory is that? From that angle the hull looks very similar to my IP31.

attachicon.gifrsz_dsc_4534.jpg

The CapevDory motorsailers were designed by Clive Dent, their in-house designer. The under bodies are significantly different from a straight sailer.

 

dent worked for a lot of good companies over the years.

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4865955_20150103111110278_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

 

How'bout dis? Pilothouse "and" a bridge. 3 stories - no waiting!

 

Ish - Ya, that Scepter 41 with neon green trim is affecting it's value IMHO. It was originally 259K and looking at the spec it should have snapped up all a long time ago. Rare to the market so it's rare it's sat.

 

In your area there was an X-372 "Lemon Xtract" with yellow X-Yachts cove stripes etc Nice people but Neils Jeppesen just hated to shoot one of his designs in yellow, I mean hate and he originally he wouldn't do it. It sat in the pre-own market for quite some time. After a year of buying it the new owner it had a new paint job by Cletus Currie making it X-Yacht blue again thank Xmas.

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As I look though this thread, I will keep reminding myself of the difference (yes, they do exist) between a boat that was designed as a sailboat with a pilot house and a motor sailer with a pilot house.

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Quite correct Bj - Yes, there is a difference between them although a little blurry once and awhile. With the Lancer I was just having some fun with the rest of the class. Horrid boats that are king chopper gun build and fun fur interior - in bulk. It was the 70's and the oil crisis so everybody and their dog were building sailboats against a Tolly 40 454's gas pots; a bit scary at teh pump in those days.. A couple of their designs weren't half bad like the 36 that was taken off Bill Lee's design "Chutzpah" but I think that's where it stopped. Most of them were designed from the inside out looking "out" the windows.

 

Hmmm.. .sounds like a recurring theme these days. It's like Deja vu all over again.

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a Tolly 40 454's gas pots; a bit scary at teh pump in those days..

 

Yeah - gas had gone up to $0.60 or $0.70 a gallon - terrifying. :lol:

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The Fantasi 44 from Sweden was at the Annapolis Show several years back. A true pilothouse with inside helming. Well built and nicely appointed but pricey at the time. I think few boats made it to the US.

 

Ronbo

post-15939-0-10658200-1420829368_thumb.jpg

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I would not be happy if the guys on my design team and I have had as many as four started calling the designs they worked on their designs. Not sure that Briand needs and help with hull shape. He's pretty darn good.

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Bob,

Are you talking about MC lll (R/C ketch that Briand & team designed,) or MC lV (Canting keel schooner that Elliott & team designed)?

The picture above is lV.

TB

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Nothing from down below??

 

 

yacht-Dharma-nav-img-4.jpg

Beautiful lines on a modern boat. Looks fast, too. Does it have a wheel inside? What is it?

 

It's Farr-Nauta 95ft Dharma, Southern Wind Shipyard. Made in E-Glass and Kevlar, she has been around the world and to Antarctica.

 

Does not have a wheel inside, also you don't really pilot from down below as the windows are too high. There's nav station and all kind of autopilot control down there. Here is a video I took during a delivery:

 

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Pilothouse on L'Oceane 40

With settee to port opposite inside steering station.

 

post-32003-0-44698600-1420842975_thumb.jpg

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Don't be silly ranti. MARY CHA is a Briand design.

As for cruising designer doing high performance boats, nothing new there.

Ahh, I see I missed the note on the Elliot website saying Greg was a PART of the team.

The point I was trying to make with Elliot's experience is that he has spent most of his time drawing up fast, light boats for southern hemisphere owners. Those are his strengths, and his interpretation of a PH cruiser reflects that.

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The Salona you show an interior picture of isn't a pilot house yacht, so I am unsure of what you are getting at?

The elliots are, I expect, some of the lightest PH cruising boats around, so will appeal to a certain niche of sailors

Hey Rant, I was using those pictures to visually emphasise the loss of usable space one gets from a PH design compared to a traditional layout.

"Bob the Jowl" has also pointed out with his posted design that cockpit length was important to making a PH work.

Greg Elliott has a great eye undeniably all I am questioning is at 16.5m does the interior represent a functional and practical use of space.Remember its going to cost you $1.5m Kiwi roubles second hand.

In a lot of PH designs the cabin trunk forward raises or rolls in height to take up the shortcoming created by" pinching" and in many cases some of the most usable exterior deck space is lost.

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