Bob Perry

Dave's perfect sailboat

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Been away for a couple of days, and have to catch up on 150 posts, chatty Cathys.

 

Kim, I have an alloy rig about 16" shorter thar a Farr 40 rig so I looked at getting one as an upgrade only to find it was going to be quite a bit heavier, although I can't remember how much. My sailmakers said the advantage would be in the stiffness so we could run a squaretop main.

 

Bob, I was told at my polytechnic course when I was an apprentice to allow 1 square inch of vent area per hp as a minimum.

 

Also suggest that tubes glassed into the structure or stanchions, which work very well, hold a bit of water which discolours the stainless and can leave streaks, at least it did on my last boat. The solution I have used on my current boat is to glass in solid glass rods which stick out of the deck approx 8" which the stanchin slides over. This way no water can sit, and you can use off the shelf stanchins. Ymmv.

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Hinckley integrate attachment points for a snatch block into the stanchion bases so I can use Ish's trick to get the lead outboard.

 

103618_1_zoom.jpg

Tylaska shackles are cast 17ph, I think when I talked with the owner he told me they also hip them but I was drinking rum at the show so it's a little fuzzy. I suspect the Hickey cast stanchion base is a very good quality casting and up to the challenge of caring a pretty hefty load, maybe not a blade in 35 know but probably everything else.

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Alcy:

Thanks for the tip on vent size.

 

No, our stanchions will not be down in sockets. We will install a 7/8" pin that protrudes 6" out of the deck. The stanchion will go over that pin. Nothing to collect water. Basically what you now have. We have already chosen our off the shelf stanchion.

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How long is your outboard track usually Bob, when compared with the inner track? In my mind it would be pretty short, with less need for it when the jib is partially furled.

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Ranti:

Generally I make them about the same length with consideration to rolling the jib up partway at times. I don't have a rule. I eyeball it and run it by the sailmaker.

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Hinckley integrate attachment points for a snatch block into the stanchion bases so I can use Ish's trick to get the lead outboard.

 

103618_1_zoom.jpg

These are the same stanchion bases used on my lowly J-boat. We use sliding eyes on the tow rail t-trackwhen we sheet outboard. Snatch block and short sheet and we are good to go.

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Been away for a couple of days, and have to catch up on 150 posts, chatty Cathys.

Kim, I have an alloy rig about 16" shorter thar a Farr 40 rig so I looked at getting one as an upgrade only to find it was going to be quite a bit heavier, although I can't remember how much. My sailmakers said the advantage would be in the stiffness so we could run a squaretop main.

Bob, I was told at my polytechnic course when I was an apprentice to allow 1 square inch of vent area per hp as a minimum.

Also suggest that tubes glassed into the structure or stanchions, which work very well, hold a bit of water which discolours the stainless and can leave streaks, at least it did on my last boat. The solution I have used on my current boat is to glass in solid glass rods which stick out of the deck approx 8" which the stanchin slides over. This way no water can sit, and you can use off the shelf stanchins. Ymmv.

My mast weighs 288 pounds.

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Hinckley integrate attachment points for a snatch block into the stanchion bases so I can use Ish's trick to get the lead outboard.

103618_1_zoom.jpg

These are the same stanchion bases used on my lowly J-boat. We use sliding eyes on the tow rail t-trackwhen we sheet outboard. Snatch block and short sheet and we are good to go.

Like this

post-4794-0-46253400-1460863854_thumb.jpg

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Am I missing something. Which attachment point is stronger?

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Hobs:

I hear "Chingadera" at the boat yard all the time.

Yep, that one's been around for many years. I heard it many times in the early seventies at Yankee Yacht's shop.
Yup, 'cept it chingadera was usually preceded with the word "pinche".

 

Shop Spanish is fun, Bob should throw " pinche chingadera" around when he's at the yard talking to the guys about a particular part.

 

Next stop is a tyvek suit, respirator and a sanding tool!

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Hobs:

"Shop Mandarin" was also fun in Taiwan. I'd com back to my hotel after a long day at the yard and I'd get busy trying out my new Mandarin words I had learned that day. I was usually met with, "Where did you learn that?"

" I learned it at the boat yard." "You shouldn't say that." "Oh. De bu chee." ( I'm sorry)

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I can imagine some one learning English on a site here. Poor hotel staff trying to explain that cunt is not a polite pronoun, and that fuck is not grammatically required in every sentence.

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So as long as we're sorta on the topic....

 

Our 30' Ballad has long inboard trracks, large headsails, and outboard track on the aft part of the toe rail/bulwark. Inboard tracks curve inboard even more near the shrouds:

 

10656452224_6edea25e50_z.jpgdeck2013 by Robert Mcgovern, on Flickr

 

Would another 4' section of 1" track on the toe rail, forward of the last outboard section & nearly max beam, come in way handy for attaching barberhauls or short sheets on reaches? We don't want to end up with this problem:

14080077-1.jpg

 

What the hell, it's an IOR boat -- might as well exploit the beaminess & get some leach tension on. We're gonna pull those hull/deck bolts & re-bed them anyhow; so would you buy undrilled track, or fill the existing boltholes & drill new ones to fit pre-drilled track spacing?

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The picture illustrates that it's not only a sail track issue. The sail can't be set with the leach that far forward because it's a decksweeper. True reaching sails are cut with a high clew.

 

They should use a whisker pole to hold the clew well off the boat.

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The picture illustrates that it's not only a sail track issue. The sail can't be set with the leach that far forward because it's a decksweeper. True reaching sails are cut with a high clew.

 

They should use a whisker pole to hold the clew well off the boat.

Our clew will be cut higher (also the tack, due to roller furling), but I wonder if outboard tracks are still worth doing?

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Semi:

I have done a lot of racing but I have never used a spin pole or "jockey" pole to get the clew outboard. I'm not saying it's not a bad idea but it's a bit radical.

 

PS:

I thought you were Lug Man. Now you are Clew Man? You will definitely need a bigger office at the WLYDO.

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but I wonder if outboard tracks are still worth doing?

 

One of the things Bob and I have talked about is that it is going to be much, much cheaper to have Jim do something on the boat rather have to do a retro fit down on the water [at least 50% cheaper], so my inclination is to have Jim do as much as possible and affordable.

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Jib tracks will be discussed in depth with the sailmaker. We will undoubtedly come up with the correct combination.

 

If I can baby sit my 2 and 4 year old grandkids for four hours I sure as hell can take care of Dave's jib tracks.

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A whisker pole, tight reaching???

You bet. Lower the pole car to near level with the upper lifeline and clip on. On that blue boat a pole of around 6ft would be about right. You need a new sheet led outside of the lifelines and off you go.

 

It works, especially in a big breeze.

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A whisker pole, tight reaching???

You bet. Lower the pole car to near level with the upper lifeline and clip on. On that blue boat a pole of around 6ft would be about right. You need a new sheet led outside of the lifelines and off you go.

 

It works, especially in a big breeze.

 

Yeah, no thanks.

 

I have never seen it either Bob, and I think it is a bad idea. I see much broken alloy tubing in the future.

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Jib tracks will be discussed in depth with the sailmaker. We will undoubtedly come up with the correct combination.

 

If I can baby sit my 2 and 4 year old grandkids for four hours I sure as hell can take care of Dave's jib tracks.

Yep.

 

Don't know why it is such a big deal. Track is cheap. Go long.

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A whisker pole, tight reaching???

You bet. Lower the pole car to near level with the upper lifeline and clip on. On that blue boat a pole of around 6ft would be about right. You need a new sheet led outside of the lifelines and off you go.

 

It works, especially in a big breeze.

 

Yeah, no thanks.

 

I have never seen it either Bob, and I think it is a bad idea. I see much broken alloy tubing in the future.

 

I only did it for 30 years and broke nothing. Hey, what would I know?

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The reality is, if this means anything to you, that Dave does not sail like this. So dream on.

 

I have always referred to this as an old man's boat.

I think I should clarify that it is a lazy disabled old man's single hander.

But I think it will still be fun and fast.

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But it needs to say that on the back of the t-shirt...so the boat you just blew past can read them easily :rolleyes:

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Right on Dave.

 

You could sheet your jib to your street address and you'll still blow right by them.

LOL

 

We need thsirts, "It's a Perry"

 

Sign me up for one of those!

 

P.S. someday I'll get a Genny and get to use my long outboard tracks.

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A whisker pole, tight reaching???

You bet. Lower the pole car to near level with the upper lifeline and clip on. On that blue boat a pole of around 6ft would be about right. You need a new sheet led outside of the lifelines and off you go.

 

It works, especially in a big breeze.

 

Yeah, no thanks.

 

I have never seen it either Bob, and I think it is a bad idea. I see much broken alloy tubing in the future.

 

I only did it for 30 years and broke nothing. Hey, what would I know?

 

 

 

Did you do it racing or cruising? I am not entirely sure but I think that it is not race legal. Works great though, I am not quite sure why it was banned. It isn't new at all, Manfred Curry talks about it in his book.

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A whisker pole, tight reaching???

You bet. Lower the pole car to near level with the upper lifeline and clip on. On that blue boat a pole of around 6ft would be about right. You need a new sheet led outside of the lifelines and off you go.

 

It works, especially in a big breeze.

 

Yeah, no thanks.

 

I have never seen it either Bob, and I think it is a bad idea. I see much broken alloy tubing in the future.

 

I only did it for 30 years and broke nothing. Hey, what would I know?

 

 

 

Did you do it racing or cruising? I am not entirely sure but I think that it is not race legal. Works great though, I am not quite sure why it was banned. It isn't new at all, Manfred Curry talks about it in his book.

 

 

I believe that the VOR 65's use that concept. Don Feng broke theirs at one point - or at least the deck fittings.

 

I also didn't think it was legal for ordinary racing. Isn't there something about the pole having to be on the opposite side of the main boom ?

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I think that in sailing legalese it is called an outrigger but I am not sure how you differentiate a pole from an outrigger from a rule point of view (may be it has to be attached to the mast to be a pole or as you say, it has to be opposite side of the boom). Yes I remember also the VOR 65 had them but may be the class rule amended this. It is probably all in the RRS.

 

A bit OT, but I remember a boat being DSQed for taking ages to gybe with 2 poles.

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There used to be a rule that a spin/whisker pole had to be on the side opposite the boom, but it went away. Or, at least it did, and I'm not aware of it coming back. We non-spin racers should be allowed some fun.

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Vo65 amended the rules to allow those outriggers. Not legal in normal racing, and I can't be arsed to find the rule on my phone.

 

Biggest problem I see with them is what happens when you get a gust and the clew hits the water? Lots of ugly loads, and a lot more likely than a windward pole hitting the drink

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Of course using a whisker pole while racing is legal. Sheeesh! You guys don't think I would recommend anything illegal do you? See rule 50.3©.

 

It only works in a narrow wind range between roughly 70 and 90 apparent and only with a large 150% (or so) jib. It won't work at all with a non or barely overlapping jib. Since the huge range of A sails has come in you don't see so many boats doing it. It works well on a boat that only has one A sail that is a little full and won't set at 70 apparent.

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50.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast. 50.3 Use of Outriggers (a) No sail shall be sheeted over or through an outrigger, except as permitted in rule 50.3(B) or 50.3©. An outrigger is any fitting or other device so placed that it could exert outward pressure on a sheet or sail at a point from which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would fall outside the hull or deck. For the purpose of this rule, bulwarks, rails and rubbing strakes are not part of the hull or deck and the following are not outriggers: a bowsprit used to secure the tack of a sail, a bumkin used to sheet the boom of a sail, or a boom of a boomed headsail that requires no adjustment when tacking.

 

(B) Any sail may be sheeted to or led above a boom that is regularly used for a sail and is permanently attached to the mast from which the head of the sail is set.

 

© A headsail may be sheeted or attached at its clew to a spinnaker pole or whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set.

 

 

Clearly legal by clause ©. However, it must be attached at the clew. I guess the classic outrigger has the sheet running through it to a clew off in the distance.

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Yup, used them when racing PHRF in JAM fleets or when conditions or crew didn't warrant putting the spin up. Have a whisker pole for ours that I'm not sure what I'd do with if not for using it to pole out the genoa. Really handy when wanting to sail wing on wing with the 155 up.

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Slick:

I think we are talking about using the pole on a reach, on the same side as the boom just to get the lead outboard. Not wang and wang.

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Thanks semi, it is all clear now. Funnily in French we don't really make the difference between spinnaker pole and whisker pole and when you were all talking of whisker pole I was thinking jockey pole.

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I have done it with a spinnaker pole before in NFS races and when cruising once in a while. Inbd pole end needs to be higher on the track the closer to the wind you go. Use pole end lift, downhaul and topping lift to adjust lead. it's a little bit harder to get a good lead angle if you use a whisker pole with no topping or downhaul. In light air it works well to keep the whole sail working.

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Thanks semi, it is all clear now. Funnily in French we don't really make the difference between spinnaker pole and whisker pole and when you were all talking of whisker pole I was thinking jockey pole.

 

I think spinnaker vs whisker pole is all in the usage, not in the pole, though you are subject to length constraints. To pole the jib to leeward you really want an adjustable length whisker pole. Also, the shrouds get in the way, pesky devils.

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Yes the shrouds limit you. Not to bad with a non overlapping jib and although I have used it with a 125% genny it is a hassle with overlapping sails.

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Of course using a whisker pole while racing is legal. Sheeesh! You guys don't think I would recommend anything illegal do you? See rule 50.3©.

 

It only works in a narrow wind range between roughly 70 and 90 apparent and only with a large 150% (or so) jib. It won't work at all with a non or barely overlapping jib. Since the huge range of A sails has come in you don't see so many boats doing it. It works well on a boat that only has one A sail that is a little full and won't set at 70 apparent.

 

class rules can change that

 

one situation in particular that needs to be checked is that under some handicap/rating systems, a boat that is rated as a centerline asymmetric boat - a boat that tacks an asym spinnaker to a sprit or to the bow - is not allowed to use a pole, even for their jib.

 

ORR just changed this for the upcoming bermuda race, so that now a centerline asym boat can bring a pole and wing their jib if it gets to windy for a spinnaker. in previous races this was not permitted.

 

i think that mostly under phrf, if you are using your non spin rating, you can always use a pole on your jib, but i am not sure what happens if you are using your spinnaker rating and you are rated with a centerline asym - i guess you can carry a pole to use on your jib, but i would check

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A whisker pole used as a whisker pole see a fraction of the loads a true spin pole sees. The biggest load on your spin pole is hard reaching with the pole,on the headstay. You will not do that with a poled out whisker pole.

The whisker pole can be much lighter than the spin pole. There is almost no compression on the whisker pole.

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Yup, in fact a lot of purpose-made whisker-poles can be extended; push-button to lengthen or shorten like an umbrella stand. No where near as strong in compression as a spinnaker pole needs to be.

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I drove to Bob's office today and watched him do some reconciliation on all the different drawings. The poor guy must have hundreds of different files on my boat. I hope he doesn't run out of hard drive before we are finished.

 

Bob and I were specing out the boat today and I got to thinking about all the sailing experience here on CA and wondering about how to tap into that knowledge. I would like to throw the specs on line and hear back from anyone with good/bad experience with the gear.

Jim Betts recommended NEK (?) instruments and pilot but I had never heard of them.

Maxwell RC-10 anchor windlass?

Nova Kool refrigerator and freezer?

Leasure furl vs Scheafer vs V boom (Jim's recommendation)

Dickinson stove -propane?

Anyone ever use MarineDeck 2000?

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Nke is the instrument brand you are thinking of. They and B & G are the top two manufacturers of racing autopilots. Both are top notch, finding who can provide local support might become a factor.

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I've had direct experience with the Scheafer 3100 furler for three years. Prior to that, the PO put it to hard use for three years. It's held up great and only requires a quick freshwater flush of the drum bearings every year.

 

When you say Dickinson stove, do you mean the cooking appliance or the bulkhead heater? If the latter, I can recommend it highly based on my experience on a prior boat. The coaxial chimney makes it very efficient because the combustion air on the way in is preheated by the exhaust on its way out. This also keeps the chimney cool to the touch and all moisture and combustion gasses leave the boat, plus no O2 depletion inside. Plus it's nice to see the flames. Some units have a slightly buzzy fan, but that's the only caveat. Having said all that, my current boat has hydronic heat and I'm never going back.

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If I recall you are not going to race the boat so having the latest/greatest instruments may not be as important as ease of use and product support. I have all Raymarine and although they have their detractors I have found them to be intuitive to use and overall reliable. I did have trouble with a chart plotter but product support was helpfull and it was replaced at no cost even though I was not the original owner. The replaced unit also had issues (different than the first one), and was again replaced. It was a hassle but got done at no cost to me. This model chart plotter was known to be a problem and has been updated in the product line. The insrtruments, sensors, VHF, AIS and evo autopilot are working well.

 

Like IStream states above the Dickinson folks make a good bulkhead heater, I know little about their cooking stoves. My last boat had a bulkhead heater, I just installed a Webasto forced air diesel heater and will never go back to a bulkhead unit. On a boat your sized forced air or hydronic is the way to go.

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Catching up on threads after a while away from CA ...

 

I have a feeling that a hard dodger is in the distant future, but for now I am going to try and make a soft top fold-down dodger, so on the few days when it is nice in the Pacific Northwest I can fold the dodger down and catch some rays.

 

I can see the attraction of a hard dodger in the rainy PNW, and I can also see the attraction of being able to have a fully open cockpit -- both for sunny days, and for the times when you want to feel the elements against your face.

 

So why not combine the two with a folding hard dodger?

 

CA regular DDW has designed a very elegant robust folding dodger for his ingeniously original boat Anomaly. If I was building a custom boat, I'd want something like that included at design stage, so that the deck layout accommodated it neatly.

 

AFAICS from the photos I have seen, Anomaly's dodger has some very carefully calculated geometry for the folding mechanism, but is relatively simple in construction. It looks way better than a soft dodger both when raised and lowered, and it should also be much more durable.

 

Here are are some photos I grabbed off one of DDW's photosets:

 

post-51350-0-33066200-1461435597_thumb.jpg

 

post-51350-0-76345900-1461435608_thumb.jpg

 

 

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I agree that DDW's dodger is ingenious but it doesn't provide the kind of enclosure that makes for comfortable fall/winter/spring sailing in the PNW. Because it has to stow unobtrusively, the windows are low and the roof doesn't extend very far back in the cockpit. A hard dodger that extends from forward of the companionway opening to about halfway down the cockpit is what I'd consider just right. You can get all the sun you want at the rear of the cockpit and all the cover you need at the front plus plenty of solar panel real estate.

 

A great luxury is to put a second MFD with autopilot control just to port or starboard of the companionway. That way you can take shelter up there and drive the boat without getting rained on and with warm air coming up from the open companionway (another reason to splurge on hydronic heat). If you can get throttle control too, you're in fat city but it's not necessary and would be an expensive upgrade over a single manual teleflex cable at the wheel. I'm also a big fan of Makrolon or rigid windows.

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Nke is the instrument brand you are thinking of. They and B & G are the top two manufacturers of racing autopilots. Both are top notch, finding who can provide local support might become a factor.

Thanks very much. I am thinking that I will not need the latest and greatest electronics. I had heard of B&G, Jim thought NKE would get me my best bang for the buck. I had been thinking of Raymarine autopilot and instruments.

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I've had direct experience with the Scheafer 3100 furler for three years. Prior to that, the PO put it to hard use for three years. It's held up great and only requires a quick freshwater flush of the drum bearings every year.

 

When you say Dickinson stove, do you mean the cooking appliance or the bulkhead heater? If the latter, I can recommend it highly based on my experience on a prior boat. The coaxial chimney makes it very efficient because the combustion air on the way in is preheated by the exhaust on its way out. This also keeps the chimney cool to the touch and all moisture and combustion gasses leave the boat, plus no O2 depletion inside. Plus it's nice to see the flames. Some units have a slightly buzzy fan, but that's the only caveat. Having said all that, my current boat has hydronic heat and I'm never going back.

Jim and Bob were thinking of a V boom, but all along I had in mind the Scheafer system. I have only heard good things about it. Jim told me he thought I might lose 40% efficiency. I hate that thought, but I love the convenience of a roller furling boom.

Do you think you lost 40%?

I was planning on using both a two burner Dickinson stove/oven and their larger fireplace. I have that fireplace on my Tartan and it is about the most used piece of equipment on the boat. Ditto on the buzzy fan, I thought it was just old.

I am also going to put in a hot water heater system on the boat. Jim was recommending a Webasco diesel hot water heater.

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Catching up on threads after a while away from CA ...

 

I have a feeling that a hard dodger is in the distant future, but for now I am going to try and make a soft top fold-down dodger, so on the few days when it is nice in the Pacific Northwest I can fold the dodger down and catch some rays.

 

I can see the attraction of a hard dodger in the rainy PNW, and I can also see the attraction of being able to have a fully open cockpit -- both for sunny days, and for the times when you want to feel the elements against your face.

 

So why not combine the two with a folding hard dodger?

 

CA regular DDW has designed a very elegant robust folding dodger for his ingeniously original boat Anomaly. If I was building a custom boat, I'd want something like that included at design stage, so that the deck layout accommodated it neatly.

 

AFAICS from the photos I have seen, Anomaly's dodger has some very carefully calculated geometry for the folding mechanism, but is relatively simple in construction. It looks way better than a soft dodger both when raised and lowered, and it should also be much more durable.

 

Here are are some photos I grabbed off one of DDW's photosets:

 

attachicon.gifDDW - Anomaly - hard dodger folded.jpg

 

attachicon.gifDDW - Anomaly - hard dodger raised.jpg

 

 

Interesting idea. I am not sure what I will end up at this point. I like the idea of a fold down dodger for when I am sailing by myself, but raised when I am sailing with my wife. She has problems with sun exposure. She wants a hard dodger. Bob has said if I want a hard dodger I should think hard about it at this stage of design, which I think is a very good idea too.

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IStream:

A hard dodger that extends from forward of the companionway opening to about halfway down the cockpit is what I'd consider just right. You can get all the sun you want at the rear of the cockpit and all the cover you need at the front plus plenty of solar panel real estate.

 

I agree. I was planning on bringing the dodger back about 3'6" from the end of the cabin trunk. That would allow my wife plenty of room to put her feet up on the seat. I was even going to put in a kind of hammock restraint so she won't roll a round when I have to tack. That also makes room for 2-4 people to get mostly out of the rain.

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A great luxury is to put a second MFD with autopilot control just to port or starboard of the companionway. That way you can take shelter up there and drive the boat without getting rained on and with warm air coming up from the open companionway (another reason to splurge on hydronic heat).

 

Can I just use a wireless remote for the auto pilot? Never had one before so no experience with them.

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Hi Dave,

 

If you can't control the AP directly with the MFD, I'd go with the wireless remote along with the MFD so you can see the charts and radar/AIS when piloting from under the dodger. I don't know if you plan to install a bow thruster but if you do, definitely get a wireless remote for it too.

 

My apologies on furler, I thought you were talking about the jib furler rather than a boom furler for the main. I'd take Jim and Bob's advice on this one. For the kind of sailing you're talking about doing I don't think you'll be doing much furling in anger so the expense in both dollars and efficiency of a furling boom is too high in my mind. Single line reefing gets a bad rap but it's not hard to set up a smooth single line reefing system that's operable from the cockpit and doesn't require lots of strength or fussing. If you combine that with a deep first reef point in your main, it'll serve 99% of your reefing duties on the Sound and save you a bundle of money to put elsewhere in the boat.

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Last I knew "V boom" was a Hall Spars product and not a furling boom at all. I don't think anyone uses Shaefer for booms any more. Start with the idea of a Leisure Furl. PM me.

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Catching up on threads after a while away from CA ...

 

I have a feeling that a hard dodger is in the distant future, but for now I am going to try and make a soft top fold-down dodger, so on the few days when it is nice in the Pacific Northwest I can fold the dodger down and catch some rays.

 

I can see the attraction of a hard dodger in the rainy PNW, and I can also see the attraction of being able to have a fully open cockpit -- both for sunny days, and for the times when you want to feel the elements against your face.

 

So why not combine the two with a folding hard dodger?

 

CA regular DDW has designed a very elegant robust folding dodger for his ingeniously original boat Anomaly. If I was building a custom boat, I'd want something like that included at design stage, so that the deck layout accommodated it neatly.

 

AFAICS from the photos I have seen, Anomaly's dodger has some very carefully calculated geometry for the folding mechanism, but is relatively simple in construction. It looks way better than a soft dodger both when raised and lowered, and it should also be much more durable.

 

Here are are some photos I grabbed off one of DDW's photosets:

 

attachicon.gifDDW - Anomaly - hard dodger folded.jpg

 

attachicon.gifDDW - Anomaly - hard dodger raised.jpg

 

 

Interesting idea. I am not sure what I will end up at this point. I like the idea of a fold down dodger for when I am sailing by myself, but raised when I am sailing with my wife. She has problems with sun exposure. She wants a hard dodger. Bob has said if I want a hard dodger I should think hard about it at this stage of design, which I think is a very good idea too.

 

 

Planning it early makes a lot of sense. Any sort of dodger will be constrained by decisions on deck gear location, and a hard dodger even more so.

 

I take Istream's point about Anomaly's dodger not extending very far aft. I don't know whether that was a design preference of DDW's, or whether it was a product of other constraints. But it may be possible to design a hard dodger which came further aft ... or even to develop a sort of hybrid which was solid forward, but with a soft extension which could add another 18" to the rear. I rather like the idea of a two-speed dodger like that.

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Dave, if you are planning on using the AP just to hold a course while you go and make a cup of tea, in light and moderate conditions, you should be fine with raymarine. If you expect to use it sailing downwind, in some breeze and wave action, strongly think about the nke or b&g. The general chartplotter and basic instrument stuff is good on ray, but sailing specific functions like intelligent ap while surfing waves is not their area of expertise.

WHL, who used to pop up here whenever instruments were mentioned, would be the man to speak with.

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I just committed to a full house of B & G instruments, Zeus2, etc, etc. plus with the wifi transmitter you can duplicate the plotter and/or any MFD on an iPad. I also will have two Dickenson P12000 bulkhead heaters for cabin heat. Since I won't already have diesel on board, a hydronic or forced air furnace isn't in the cards. However, my previous Hurricane hydronic system was great but.... High electricity usage and high complexity. The bulkhead heaters solve both those issues.

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It might make sense to talk to Jim Betts and Bob about a bulkhead heater working on your size boat. If it seems iffy to heat it durring shoulder season use going with a forced air or hydronic system might make more sense. It will be much easier to plan for and instal durring the build than after. Also keep in mind these systems do not need a chimney above deck, they can be vented out the topsides or transom with small fittings. Finally I think your wallled off engine room is a good application for this type of system since one of the downsides of a forced air system is they can be noisy, but could be nicely isolated on your boat.

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Re: My folding hard dodger - there were limitations as to how far it could come back due to geometry of folding, but also in my cockpit any further back and it would get in the way of passing in front of the binnacle. It has been great but make no mistake, it was not designed for the PNW but rather California or tropical type weather. I'm very happy to have it, but if I was building a boat for the PNW it would have a full pilot house (and might even be a trawler :blink: ).

 

If you do hydronic heating, consider an ITR Hurricane.

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I've had direct experience with the Scheafer 3100 furler for three years. Prior to that, the PO put it to hard use for three years. It's held up great and only requires a quick freshwater flush of the drum bearings every year.

 

When you say Dickinson stove, do you mean the cooking appliance or the bulkhead heater? If the latter, I can recommend it highly based on my experience on a prior boat. The coaxial chimney makes it very efficient because the combustion air on the way in is preheated by the exhaust on its way out. This also keeps the chimney cool to the touch and all moisture and combustion gasses leave the boat, plus no O2 depletion inside. Plus it's nice to see the flames. Some units have a slightly buzzy fan, but that's the only caveat. Having said all that, my current boat has hydronic heat and I'm never going back.

Jim and Bob were thinking of a V boom, but all along I had in mind the Scheafer system. I have only heard good things about it. Jim told me he thought I might lose 40% efficiency. I hate that thought, but I love the convenience of a roller furling boom.

Do you think you lost 40%?

I was planning on using both a two burner Dickinson stove/oven and their larger fireplace. I have that fireplace on my Tartan and it is about the most used piece of equipment on the boat. Ditto on the buzzy fan, I thought it was just old.

I am also going to put in a hot water heater system on the boat. Jim was recommending a Webasco diesel hot water heater.

 

 

Dave - I have one word for you - Lazyjacks. I haven't used the new style in boom furling but I've used in-mast and old style roller boom as well as lazyjacks on three boats and lazyjacks are easier, work just as well, cost way less and don't interfere with or limit the shape of the sail.

 

Re: the Dickinson stoves - if you mean galley stove I think the best recommendation is that virtually every fishboat north of California has one onboard. You need an alternative, cooler cooker in the summer but for the rest of the year you've got dry cabin heat, cooking and hot water all from an idling diesel stove.

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Hi Dave,

 

If you can't control the AP directly with the MFD, I'd go with the wireless remote along with the MFD so you can see the charts and radar/AIS when piloting from under the dodger. I don't know if you plan to install a bow thruster but if you do, definitely get a wireless remote for it too.

 

My apologies on furler, I thought you were talking about the jib furler rather than a boom furler for the main. I'd take Jim and Bob's advice on this one. For the kind of sailing you're talking about doing I don't think you'll be doing much furling in anger so the expense in both dollars and efficiency of a furling boom is too high in my mind. Single line reefing gets a bad rap but it's not hard to set up a smooth single line reefing system that's operable from the cockpit and doesn't require lots of strength or fussing. If you combine that with a deep first reef point in your main, it'll serve 99% of your reefing duties on the Sound and save you a bundle of money to put elsewhere in the boat.

That seems like the way to go to me, too. I am hoping that I don't even have to reef the main, just roll up the jib and sail under mail alone.

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I'm relieved to hear that you are moving away from the furling main.

 

It seems to me that it would be a terrible pity to go so much trouble and expense creating a perfect sailboat, and then spend lots more money to deliberately cripple it by throwing away 40% of the drive from the mainsail. That's like launching the boat with a bottom covered in weed while towing a string of fenders behind you and chucking cash over the stern at your drogue.

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I've never understood why anyone would need anything more complex than conventional slab reefing. You can always have one of those ugly skirt things (bet that's got a name and bet it's not a monosyllable) to hold the bits together if you want.

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I'm relieved to hear that you are moving away from the furling main.

 

It seems to me that it would be a terrible pity to go so much trouble and expense creating a perfect sailboat, and then spend lots more money to deliberately cripple it by throwing away 40% of the drive from the mainsail. That's like launching the boat with a bottom covered in weed while towing a string of fenders behind you and chucking cash over the stern at your drogue.

 

Have you ever used a modern furling boom? You seem quite misguided about loss of drive.

 

Think of the tradeoffs with a roller furling jib. To me with a furling boom they're similar, with the difference that reefed sail shapes when reefing to a batten are no-compromise.

 

It's easy to reef so it's done more frequently, leading to more efficient and comfortable sailing.

 

Also, it eliminates all the spaghetti associated with slab reefing. To my thinking rolling is less complex than slab.

 

unnamed%201_zpsjdalmck6.jpg

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Roller furling's the work of the devil on both foresails and mainsails, although I understand that for many boats reefing the headsail is a necessary evil. I should make it clear from the point of the main, I make the point from a position of ignorance and prejudice combined!

 

Maybe I ought to take this one along to the argument clinic, and put my head in to the jib furler clinic as well.

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I've never understood why anyone would need anything more complex than conventional slab reefing. You can always have one of those ugly skirt things (bet that's got a name and bet it's not a monosyllable) to hold the bits together if you want.

The ugly skirt things work very well. Here it is rolled and tucked away.

 

P10405891_zps268f5ba8.jpg

Here it is deployed.

IMG_3759.JPG_zpsdulupbl9.jpg

 

It makes setting and deploying the main a non issue for the two of us.

 

Dave might consider hayracks/boom wings for his boom, they along with the ugly skirt thing and lazy jacks, make larger mains much more manageable. IMHO

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Oo, what a nice boat. I should know what it is but I don't. Is it a Swedish inspired thing or a sled inspired thing, or am I barking up the wrong mizzen altogether?

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Hi Ed, Canadian inspired by C&C. It's about as far removed from being a sled as can be, 65,000#'s vs ~24,000#'s but it is fairly quick, -36 in PHRF.

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It's true that the 'ugly skirt thing' is muy ugly but it is dead simple to use quickly and short handed. I hate looking at them but they are the best solution overall. (Dollars/ease of use)

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Joli,

 

When I think "ugly skirt thing", I think of this with the Sunbrella cover all too noticeable and truly ugly at the foot of the sail. I don't see that in the photo of your ship. Please explain?

 

stackpack_web.jpg

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Joli, I see the telltale signs of a Spectra laminate. My switch to Radian has worked out great so far.

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Hi Ed, Canadian inspired by C&C. It's about as far removed from being a sled as can be, 65,000#'s vs ~24,000#'s but it is fairly quick, -36 in PHRF.

 

tee hee - that's how good my eye is. The low freeboard deluded me: that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. Canadian who?

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Joli,

 

When I think "ugly skirt thing", I think of this with the Sunbrella cover all too noticeable and truly ugly at the foot of the sail. I don't see that in the photo of your ship. Please explain?

 

stackpack_web.jpg

That's exactly what we have Semi but when sailing we typically roll it up and pull the spectra lazy cradles forward. We made some modifications to it, we use a continuous loop for the zipper so we can zip/unzip from the back of the boom and the main halyard lives on the headboard, we pull it back at sails end. It's literally a 2 minute job to set or strike the main. We also added hayracks/boom wings to support the sail when, striking or reefing. The sail weighs a couple hundred pounds so this is a very important feature for us. Having that damn thing spill over the boom is not a good thing, it's very bulky, hard to get to with the dodger and bimini in the way and 6 foot off the deck. It's imperative the sail stays on the boom. Here is a good picture of the boom wings and the lazy cradle (AKA ugly skirt things). With the big frac rig Dave is going to have and a sizable main, I highly recommend hayracks or a park avenue boom from Offshore.

 

staysail_zpsf2vkc4c8.jpg

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Joli, I see the telltale signs of a Spectra laminate. My switch to Radian has worked out great so far.

Doesn't that just piss you off KDH, it's hard to justify throwing away a very nice North Sails spectra main because of mold. We keep saying next year we're gonna call Al and buy a radian main, then I look at the shape and go hmmm. Other then the mold it's a nice main. I feel like Rip Torn.

 

main.jpg

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Hi Ed, Canadian inspired by C&C. It's about as far removed from being a sled as can be, 65,000#'s vs ~24,000#'s but it is fairly quick, -36 in PHRF.

 

tee hee - that's how good my eye is. The low freeboard deluded me: that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. Canadian who?

 

Bruckman built C&C. There's a whole lotta boat below the waterline, easy to think the boat is lighter.

 

Old photo, it now sports a new bottom, 5 coats of epoxy and 3 coats of VC Offshore.

 

IMG_20140504_113054_6471_zpsa69685da.jpg

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I just committed to a full house of B & G instruments, Zeus2, etc, etc. plus with the wifi transmitter you can duplicate the plotter and/or any MFD on an iPad. I also will have two Dickenson P12000 bulkhead heaters for cabin heat. Since I won't already have diesel on board, a hydronic or forced air furnace isn't in the cards. However, my previous Hurricane hydronic system was great but.... High electricity usage and high complexity. The bulkhead heaters solve both those issues.

 

Will enough heat rise to the bridgedeck to make that semi-comfortable without baking the crew out of the hulls?

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Mylar sails = moldy sails. Especially in the PNW.

 

If you do lazy jacks (and have much of a roach) the hayracks seem like a good thing. It helps keep the batten ends from getting caught in the lazyjacks as you hoist. I usually end up spending another minute or so on each hoist steering back and forth getting the battens free. I may do hayracks in the future to try to mitigate that.

 

On the ugly bag on the boom thing, the Doyle version has extra cloth attempting to hold the bag up against the sail while sailing at full hoist. That makes it look tidier (especially if the bag is white) but prevents rolling it and tucking it like Joli shows. Also in reefed positions it will blow up with sail bunt and air. My mainsail also weighs a lot, as Joli says you want that controlled on top of the boom all of the time. Next time I would consider the trough boom with a cover attached to the wings - it seems like that puts all the pieces together.

 

Here in white, made as small as possible, it looks better to my eye than the large blue ones you often see:

 

Helmview.jpg

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Mylar sails = moldy sails. Especially in the PNW.

 

If you do lazy jacks (and have much of a roach) the hayracks seem like a good thing. It helps keep the batten ends from getting caught in the lazyjacks as you hoist. I usually end up spending another minute or so on each hoist steering back and forth getting the battens free. I may do hayracks in the future to try to mitigate that.

 

On the ugly bag on the boom thing, the Doyle version has extra cloth attempting to hold the bag up against the sail while sailing at full hoist. That makes it look tidier (especially if the bag is white) but prevents rolling it and tucking it like Joli shows. Also in reefed positions it will blow up with sail bunt and air. My mainsail also weighs a lot, as Joli says you want that controlled on top of the boom all of the time. Next time I would consider the trough boom with a cover attached to the wings - it seems like that puts all the pieces together.

 

Here in white, made as small as possible, it looks better to my eye than the large blue ones you often see:

 

Helmview.jpg

I like the foldable hard top DDW, very creative!

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I'm relieved to hear that you are moving away from the furling main.

 

It seems to me that it would be a terrible pity to go so much trouble and expense creating a perfect sailboat, and then spend lots more money to deliberately cripple it by throwing away 40% of the drive from the mainsail. That's like launching the boat with a bottom covered in weed while towing a string of fenders behind you and chucking cash over the stern at your drogue.

Have you ever used a modern furling boom? You seem quite misguided about loss of drive.

 

 

I was referring to Dave's quote of Jim Betts at post #657. Jim had warned Dave of the 40% loss.

 

Think of the tradeoffs with a roller furling jib. To me with a furling boom they're similar, with the difference that reefed sail shapes when reefing to a batten are no-compromise.

 

The jib is a rather different issue. On a fractional rig like Dave's the jib is a much smaller percentage of the overall sail area than the bigger foretriangle + overlap on your 35yo-old-design boat. Efficiency losses in the smaller job on the more modern boat are not so critical. It's unlikely that Dave's boat would take more than a few rolls in the jib until conditions got quite extreme, whereas in the same wind ranges a masthead lapper will frequently be used with a significant reduction in area.

 

I'm also not persuaded that even the battened boom furling is a no compromise option. Sure, the sail isn't a roachless board like like an in-mast furler, but its still flatter and less roachy than a main set up for slab reefing.

 

It's easy to reef so it's done more frequently, leading to more efficient and comfortable sailing.

 

Also, it eliminates all the spaghetti associated with slab reefing. To my thinking rolling is less complex than slab.

I'm sure that the roller is less complex to use, but it relies on a single mechanism whose points of failure are unlikely to be repairable at sea.

 

With a well set-up slab system, reefing is not a drama. And if anything goes wrong with a slab system, it is all relatively easily repaired or jury-rigged at sea -- unlike a roller, which could jam with the sail in any position.

 

 

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Since Dave's boat is planned to have a Farr 40 rig he has the benefit not having to be the first to figure some of this out. I doubt many Farr 40's are cruised but sail area, weight etc are known entities. Kim's boat has the same rig and I do not think he has any stowage gear behond easy jacks. Kim's cruising sails were made by a very good local loft so they could tell you the specs. My main is smaller but with spectra easy jacks and a tide's marine sail track system it is not hard to handle. If the jacks are left deployed slots and flaps can be added to the removable sail cover and this will keep the sail on the boom without wings or racks. I do not know how high off the deck Daves boom will be and that will influence some of these decisions.

 

Dave will be sailing in the same local area as we do, my boat has a sa/d of 21 and 7 foot draft so is more on the performance side of things and we almost never reef. I do benefit from from having a althletic wife who does not mind healing a lot and there are times it would be better to reef but we tend to just power on. Overall the reefing advantage of a roller boom would not be a big deal in our area so the convience of not having jacks and a sail cover is more important.

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Joli,

 

When I think "ugly skirt thing", I think of this with the Sunbrella cover all too noticeable and truly ugly at the foot of the sail. I don't see that in the photo of your ship. Please explain?

 

stackpack_web.jpg

 

That's exactly what we have Semi but when sailing we typically roll it up and pull the spectra lazy cradles forward. We made some modifications to it, we use a continuous loop for the zipper so we can zip/unzip from the back of the boom and the main halyard lives on the headboard, we pull it back at sails end. It's literally a 2 minute job to set or strike the main. We also added hayracks/boom wings to support the sail when, striking or reefing. The sail weighs a couple hundred pounds so this is a very important feature for us. Having that damn thing spill over the boom is not a good thing, it's very bulky, hard to get to with the dodger and bimini in the way and 6 foot off the deck. It's imperative the sail stays on the boom. Here is a good picture of the boom wings and the lazy cradle (AKA ugly skirt things). With the big frac rig Dave is going to have and a sizable main, I highly recommend hayracks or a park avenue boom from Offshore.

 

staysail_zpsf2vkc4c8.jpg

Thanks for that picture Joli, I have been pondering adding them to my boom. Kim

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