Bob Perry

Dave's perfect sailboat

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Dave, I think it's exciting that you think electric/hybrid propulsion has matured enough to give it a go. I'd love to know what guys like DDW on the forum here think. I've read a little about the Torqeedo hybrid drive systems, which seem to me somewhat promising. But I think these things are still bleeding edge.

 

On main roller furling, I don't think it's a layup for you. I have a system I've refined and is ideal for my sailing. But I'm in a reliable area for wind in the summer, 15 to 20 knots. I love being able to roll out the sail to what suits the conditions. In your area I imagine it's often a choice between all the canvas or motoring. A good slab system is likely best, with the stowage-fussing for the main the only meaningfully practical consideration. I'll tell you that I've spent ungodly sums getting my main furling to where I'm satisfied with it.

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...

Jim Betts recommended NEK (?) instruments and pilot but I had never heard of them.

...

 

If you can afford NKE, they are really good. NKE has been refined over the years as it is the instrument and pilot of choices for people racing singlehanded in mini, figaro, ORMA and IMOCA. It is really robust stuff. I would rather have a NKE system with less features just for the "trust" factor.

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Dave, I think it's exciting that you think electric/hybrid propulsion has matured enough to give it a go. I'd love to know what guys like DDW on the forum here think. I've read a little about the Torqeedo hybrid drive systems, which seem to me somewhat promising. But I think these things are still bleeding edge.

 

On main roller furling, I don't think it's a layup for you. I have a system I've refined and is ideal for my sailing. But I'm in a reliable area for wind in the summer, 15 to 20 knots. I love being able to roll out the sail to what suits the conditions. In your area I imagine it's often a choice between all the canvas or motoring. A good slab system is likely best, with the stowage-fussing for the main the only meaningfully practical consideration. I'll tell you that I've spent ungodly sums getting my main furling to where I'm satisfied with it.

 

Of everything on the boat the diesel - electric drive is the one that I am most excited about. I can see going down to the dock and motoring out of the breakwater under electric drive with no diesel smell [which makes my wife sick], no diesel sound, and no diesel vibration. The Volvo DC genset should put as much juice back into the batteries as I suck out motoring at 8 kts. I would only need the genset if If want to motor a long way at high speed.

Bob has designed in [8] 400amp 6 volt batteries for a 48 volt system for the electric drive, and I am hoping for a reduced 24 volt electrical system to run most of the other equipment on the boat with the same battery bank when I am not using the sail drive.

About the main furling, I have a feeling the easy reef will be to just roll up the jib and sail under mail alone. The main will be about 465 sq ft [without roach] and I think Bob wants to go with full battens [?, not sure yet], so I can see possibly never reefing the main up here in the sailing months. A good foolproof slab reefing system led to an electric winch should be all I need.

I am just going to trust Bob Perry and JIm Betts on a lot of this stuff.

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...

Jim Betts recommended NEK (?) instruments and pilot but I had never heard of them.

...

If you can afford NKE, they are really good. NKE has been refined over the years as it is the instrument and pilot of choices for people racing singlehanded in mini, figaro, ORMA and IMOCA. It is really robust stuff. I would rather have a NKE system with less features just for the "trust" factor.

According to a few people who seem to know, B & G have upped their AP game, so both are quite similar performance for performance shorthanded racing now. NKE has almost no presence here in Aus, so there would need to be a good reason to choose them here. Not sure how well supported they are around Dave, but it will be less than is available in and around France for sure.

I think NKE is still cheaper than B & G, for similar level gear.

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Hey Dave,

 

Lovin the choice of electric propulsion... I think it was Glacier Bay that was developing an interesting system a couple of years ago...could be worth looking into. Also, any thoughts about prop selection?

 

You mentioned planning on main only as your first reef option. Although the main on a f40 is probably a bit bigger(fathead and overlaps back stay)than what Bob drew for you, you've still got a lot of mainsail.

 

About 15years ago I switched to a Harken track and batt car system with a fully battened main and haven't looked back. I'll give you a couple of totally unbiased advantages.

 

1) Safety. I can drop my main in a heartbeat if need be and keep my mainsail contained within the Lazyjacks.(Sure you can drop your main w/o using your boomfurler in case of a jam but it'll be all over the place if short handed w/o Lazyjacks.

 

2) I have full battens stitched in right at both reef points. Once a couple of reef lines are tied the stability that the battens provide makes it pretty easy to tie the rest of the reef lines or make finer adjustment to get it just right.

 

3)Full battens gives a great shape to the 1st or 2nd reef. If it's blowing 40 I'll sometimes reef at the dock and get out there. As your gonna be daysailing reefing 1st and shaking it out later is an easy option for you.(This might depend on how protected your mooring//slip is) Knowing that your rig is set up to find a groove in higher wind situations gives you more options.

 

4) Motorsailing high into the wind under main only with full battens is a huge bonus(even reefed). A slight luff/bend in the battens and limited help from the engine is a great mode that is difficult to achieve w/o full battens. In your area this is worth considering.

 

5) With a properly tightened lazyjack and full battened mainsail, it is pretty easy to fold the mainsail 'on the way down'.

 

Disadvantages

 

1) The battcarrs can stack up pretty high on a big sail. Boom height at the gooseneck should allow for this factor.

 

2) Decide whether your battcarrs will live with your sail or the mast. If with the sail and they come off the mast from time to time DO NOT LOSE bearings...they pop out easily(carry spares)(wrap battcarrs in cellophane if folding and storing)...they will jam if accidentally run with less than allotted #...most people keep them on the mast when stored

 

3 Track should be periodically inspected where track sections meet. I usually do this at the beginning of each season and have only once found a slight nic that wasn't really gonna hold up the battcarrs but filed it down a little. Also, there's a slight chance the bolts that fasten the track to the mast loosen enough to obstruct the battcar. Neither of these have been an issue but still like to keep an eye on them.

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Lovin the choice of electric propulsion... I think it was Glacier Bay that was developing an interesting system a couple of years ago...could be worth looking into.

Interesting indeed. As in "may you live in interesting times."

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Rule,

 

I'm pretty sure it was Glacier Bay I was talking to maybe 8 yrs ago about their deisel electric systems if memory serves me...are they no longer in business?

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Hey Dave,

 

Lovin the choice of electric propulsion... I think it was Glacier Bay that was developing an interesting system a couple of years ago...could be worth looking into. Also, any thoughts about prop selection?

 

You mentioned planning on main only as your first reef option. Although the main on a f40 is probably a bit bigger(fathead and overlaps back stay)than what Bob drew for you, you've still got a lot of mainsail.

 

About 15years ago I switched to a Harken track and batt car system with a fully battened main and haven't looked back. I'll give you a couple of totally unbiased advantages.

 

1) Safety. I can drop my main in a heartbeat if need be and keep my mainsail contained within the Lazyjacks.(Sure you can drop your main w/o using your boomfurler in case of a jam but it'll be all over the place if short handed w/o Lazyjacks.

 

2) I have full battens stitched in right at both reef points. Once a couple of reef lines are tied the stability that the battens provide makes it pretty easy to tie the rest of the reef lines or make finer adjustment to get it just right.

 

3)Full battens gives a great shape to the 1st or 2nd reef. If it's blowing 40 I'll sometimes reef at the dock and get out there. As your gonna be daysailing reefing 1st and shaking it out later is an easy option for you.(This might depend on how protected your mooring//slip is) Knowing that your rig is set up to find a groove in higher wind situations gives you more options.

 

4) Motorsailing high into the wind under main only with full battens is a huge bonus(even reefed). A slight luff/bend in the battens and limited help from the engine is a great mode that is difficult to achieve w/o full battens. In your area this is worth considering.

 

5) With a properly tightened lazyjack and full battened mainsail, it is pretty easy to fold the mainsail 'on the way down'.

 

Disadvantages

 

1) The battcarrs can stack up pretty high on a big sail. Boom height at the gooseneck should allow for this factor.

 

2) Decide whether your battcarrs will live with your sail or the mast. If with the sail and they come off the mast from time to time DO NOT LOSE bearings...they pop out easily(carry spares)(wrap battcarrs in cellophane if folding and storing)...they will jam if accidentally run with less than allotted #...most people keep them on the mast when stored

 

3 Track should be periodically inspected where track sections meet. I usually do this at the beginning of each season and have only once found a slight nic that wasn't really gonna hold up the battcarrs but filed it down a little. Also, there's a slight chance the bolts that fasten the track to the mast loosen enough to obstruct the battcar. Neither of these have been an issue but still like to keep an eye on them.

The main is going to be about 17.5' on the foot and 53' for the P. What do you think of that as a mainsail?

I like the idea of a full batten main and lazy jacks if I am not going to go roller furling boom.

I did like the idea of no sail cover so I could just zip down to the boat and be ready to go in a few minutes.

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Dave

 

In terms of size and shape of your main I'll leave that to BP...your in good hands.

 

Regardless of shape and size...you'll be able to use full battens if you want them.

 

As for reef points...try to discuss likely wind range. For example 0-25knots full main...25-35knots 1st reef...35-45knots 2nd reef...>50 knots 3rd reef/storm sail/no sail. These are just rough numbers...if you go with just two reefs go deep on the second one. I should also clarify that my reef points are actually just below the batten so the batten kinda straddles on top of the boom when reefed(your sailmaker will know what to do).

 

Taking a sail cover off should be a pleasurable experience! And takes a couple of seconds! Putting it back on sometimes not so much. One thing to consider is even if you're hoisting at the mast, is running an extra length of main halyard back to the cockpit for the takedown.

 

If you're double handed in the right conditions the best/easiest time to get a super neat fold is on the way back in while the main is still all the way up(no sloppy rehoist at the dock) The helmsman can ease the sail down in foldable sections while the crew assists with a couple of ties. With practice and well tightened lazyjacks you can get a pretty good fold solo and w no ties(ease the first third or so and drop the rest).

 

To get a decent look w the cover you'll want to throw a couple ties on and ease off the jacks that you cranked so tight to get the good fold(also you'll want them somewhat loose for the next hoist).Get some slits cut in your sail cover where the jacks meet the boom. Oversize the cover slightly for a flatter look. It'll go on like a charm and will look so good you'll gladly spend the extra 5 minutes.

 

I don't know where I heard it but one Grand Prix/Rolex type owner finally turfed his >150k or so boomfurler and called it an overpriced sail cover.

 

Cheers

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Joli,

 

When I think "ugly skirt thing", I think of this with the Sunbrella cover all too noticeable and truly ugly at the foot of the sail. I don't see that in the photo of your ship. Please explain?

 

stackpack_web.jpg

That's exactly what we have Semi but when sailing we typically roll it up and pull the spectra lazy cradles forward. We made some modifications to it, we use a continuous loop for the zipper so we can zip/unzip from the back of the boom and the main halyard lives on the headboard, we pull it back at sails end. It's literally a 2 minute job to set or strike the main. We also added hayracks/boom wings to support the sail when, striking or reefing. The sail weighs a couple hundred pounds so this is a very important feature for us. Having that damn thing spill over the boom is not a good thing, it's very bulky, hard to get to with the dodger and bimini in the way and 6 foot off the deck. It's imperative the sail stays on the boom. Here is a good picture of the boom wings and the lazy cradle (AKA ugly skirt things). With the big frac rig Dave is going to have and a sizable main, I highly recommend hayracks or a park avenue boom from Offshore.

 

Thanks for that picture Joli, I have been pondering adding them to my boom. Kim

 

Kim, an additional reason that we added the boom wings was for our mooring covers, they require clear real estate above the mainsail to deploy. The lazy cradle and lazy jacks were in the way but when we loosened them to clear the area the main would flop over the side of the boom. With the wings the main sits nicely on the boom and the mooring covers can be used. The lazy jacks are simply pulled forward.

 

at%20a%20mooring_zps1glhdrl1.jpg

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Dave,

 

A stackpack (which includes lazy jacks) combined with battcars or equivalent and an electric halyard makes for a pretty easy raise. As Joli mentioned earlier, it's not hard to put a loop on the zipper that runs the length of the boom so you can open or close the cover anywhere along the boom. I've got that setup on my boat and like it very much. If you want to see it in person, just PM me. Combined with a V or Park Avenue style boom, sail handling will be very easy.

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Dave, in about a week or so my boat will be in Anacortes, I can give you a demo of the lazyjack/Doyle stackpack system if you want to see it. That is a smallish main so lots of ways of dealing with - but the stackpack is pretty convenient.

 

Glacier Bay is still in business, but doing military work and truck air conditioning now - no boat stuff as far as I know.

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Of everything on the boat the diesel - electric drive is the one that I am most excited about. I can see going down to the dock and motoring out of the breakwater under electric drive with no diesel smell [which makes my wife sick], no diesel sound, and no diesel vibration. The Volvo DC genset should put as much juice back into the batteries as I suck out motoring at 8 kts. I would only need the genset if If want to motor a long way at high speed.

 

 

Just another thought here for you to consider: The more I looked at electric propulsion with a diesel "genset" to put the juice back in, the less sense it made to me--- IF I'm going to have a diesel onboard, why not go for a hybrid system where the diesel can provide propulsion AND/OR recharge the 48v bank? What you are describing is a "series" setup and what I started to ponder was a "parallel" setup. I had a local machinist come up with a mechanical clutch so that I could disengage the prop shaft when I wanted to run the diesel to turn the electric motor into a giant alternator and recharge the bank but didn't want the boat driving around in circles on my mooring (technically, I guess what I ended up doing is called a "series/parallel" setup). I installed a great little Isuzu 3 cylinder (which was cheaper than what I was looking at in the dedicated genset scenario) and can now choose electric propulsion (great around the dock and just getting to my sailing grounds) or diesel propulsion (longer bouts of steady motoring (but its a SAILboat….) or battling a bad current. YMMV as they say.

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Glacier Bay boats?

 

Recently he had a ad going for a cabinet maker at a new boat company he was getting going up in Burlington.

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Dave, in about a week or so my boat will be in Anacortes, I can give you a demo of the lazyjack/Doyle stackpack system if you want to see it. That is a smallish main so lots of ways of dealing with - but the stackpack is pretty convenient.

 

Glacier Bay is still in business, but doing military work and truck air conditioning now - no boat stuff as far as I know.

 

That would be terrific, I would like to take you up on that. I plan on driving to Anacortes next week to talk to Jim Betts and the Electric Yacht dealer up there.

What would be a good day?

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Of everything on the boat the diesel - electric drive is the one that I am most excited about. I can see going down to the dock and motoring out of the breakwater under electric drive with no diesel smell [which makes my wife sick], no diesel sound, and no diesel vibration. The Volvo DC genset should put as much juice back into the batteries as I suck out motoring at 8 kts. I would only need the genset if If want to motor a long way at high speed.

 

 

Just another thought here for you to consider: The more I looked at electric propulsion with a diesel "genset" to put the juice back in, the less sense it made to me--- IF I'm going to have a diesel onboard, why not go for a hybrid system where the diesel can provide propulsion AND/OR recharge the 48v bank? What you are describing is a "series" setup and what I started to ponder was a "parallel" setup. I had a local machinist come up with a mechanical clutch so that I could disengage the prop shaft when I wanted to run the diesel to turn the electric motor into a giant alternator and recharge the bank but didn't want the boat driving around in circles on my mooring (technically, I guess what I ended up doing is called a "series/parallel" setup). I installed a great little Isuzu 3 cylinder (which was cheaper than what I was looking at in the dedicated genset scenario) and can now choose electric propulsion (great around the dock and just getting to my sailing grounds) or diesel propulsion (longer bouts of steady motoring (but its a SAILboat….) or battling a bad current. YMMV as they say.

 

 

I think these things are worth giving careful consideration. Your setup is the Prius to Dave's Chevy Volt.

 

Anom, what do you use for a regulator when using the electric motor as an alternator? Is there a special setup?

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Of everything on the boat the diesel - electric drive is the one that I am most excited about. I can see going down to the dock and motoring out of the breakwater under electric drive with no diesel smell [which makes my wife sick], no diesel sound, and no diesel vibration. The Volvo DC genset should put as much juice back into the batteries as I suck out motoring at 8 kts. I would only need the genset if If want to motor a long way at high speed.

 

 

Just another thought here for you to consider: The more I looked at electric propulsion with a diesel "genset" to put the juice back in, the less sense it made to me--- IF I'm going to have a diesel onboard, why not go for a hybrid system where the diesel can provide propulsion AND/OR recharge the 48v bank? What you are describing is a "series" setup and what I started to ponder was a "parallel" setup. I had a local machinist come up with a mechanical clutch so that I could disengage the prop shaft when I wanted to run the diesel to turn the electric motor into a giant alternator and recharge the bank but didn't want the boat driving around in circles on my mooring (technically, I guess what I ended up doing is called a "series/parallel" setup). I installed a great little Isuzu 3 cylinder (which was cheaper than what I was looking at in the dedicated genset scenario) and can now choose electric propulsion (great around the dock and just getting to my sailing grounds) or diesel propulsion (longer bouts of steady motoring (but its a SAILboat….) or battling a bad current. YMMV as they say.

 

 

I think these things are worth giving careful consideration. Your setup is the Prius to Dave's Chevy Volt.

 

Anom, what do you use for a regulator when using the electric motor as an alternator? Is there a special setup?

 

 

I want to know all about this setup too. Sounds like you've done some very clever stuff. Start a new fred on the subject?

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Start a new Fred? :)

I am planning on a sail drive, not a prop and shaft. How would you connect the diesel engine directly to the saildrive?

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Yanmar SD20 hybrid saildrive:

post-25831-0-50612100-1461645634_thumb.jpg

 

Not sure if it provides the electric propulsive power you want though. I think the electric motor + diesel generator + large battery bank I think you described gives you the ability to use a good size electric motor and an isolated generator which will be quiet when you need to use it.

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What electric motor where you expecting to use?

 

I am a bit skeptical of the marketing literature of many of these companies, who list their "horsepower equivalents" quite optimistically. As an example one lists their motor as equivalent to a 40 hp diesel, yet rates it at 17 KW continuous input (which is 23 hp, and that's input, not output). Reminds me a little of the compressors at Home Depot of a few years ago or the vacuum cleaners you can get there now: "develops 5 hp" was the nomenclature. Which is a physical fantasy.

 

You do seem to have the ideal use in mind for an electric drive, it will be interesting to hear how it plays out.

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Joli,

 

When I think "ugly skirt thing", I think of this with the Sunbrella cover all too noticeable and truly ugly at the foot of the sail. I don't see that in the photo of your ship. Please explain?

 

stackpack_web.jpg

That's exactly what we have Semi but when sailing we typically roll it up and pull the spectra lazy cradles forward. We made some modifications to it, we use a continuous loop for the zipper so we can zip/unzip from the back of the boom and the main halyard lives on the headboard, we pull it back at sails end. It's literally a 2 minute job to set or strike the main. We also added hayracks/boom wings to support the sail when, striking or reefing. The sail weighs a couple hundred pounds so this is a very important feature for us. Having that damn thing spill over the boom is not a good thing, it's very bulky, hard to get to with the dodger and bimini in the way and 6 foot off the deck. It's imperative the sail stays on the boom. Here is a good picture of the boom wings and the lazy cradle (AKA ugly skirt things). With the big frac rig Dave is going to have and a sizable main, I highly recommend hayracks or a park avenue boom from Offshore.

 

Thanks for that picture Joli, I have been pondering adding them to my boom. Kim

 

Kim, an additional reason that we added the boom wings was for our mooring covers, they require clear real estate above the mainsail to deploy. The lazy cradle and lazy jacks were in the way but when we loosened them to clear the area the main would flop over the side of the boom. With the wings the main sits nicely on the boom and the mooring covers can be used. The lazy jacks are simply pulled forward.

 

at%20a%20mooring_zps1glhdrl1.jpg

 

If you split your mooring cover into 2 pieces those being port and starboard, you can run a bolt rope along the side of the cover and epoxy a track along each side of boom. The result being you do not have to touch the lazy jacks or actually anything at all as they would all be above the mooring covers. Pulling a smaller cover along a track is much faster and easier than climbing over a boom especially when knees don't work all that well in an advancing age.

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Start a new Fred? :)

I am planning on a sail drive, not a prop and shaft. How would you connect the diesel engine directly to the saildrive?

 

Ed likes Fred, what can I say. I just typed in a longer response to your question and it didn't post..... so, the short version: I don't know the answer to your question about saildrives and a parallel setup. Clearly, the clutch arrangement I used wouldn't work in that application. I'll be out your way in June if you'd like to meet up and chat electric propulsion.

 

KDH: My software control unit handles the recharging when using the diesel to turn the electric motor as a giant alternator. I'm not sure it is that precise or that it offers very sophisticated charging "profiles." I deliberately started with a small, lead acid bank because I wasn't certain it made sense to splash a lot of cash on a advanced battery technology like lithium at this point.

 

In general, I would agree with DDW's skepticism about a lot of what one reads/hears about the technology. But, I'm happy investigating the possibilities.

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Anomaly, would you be comfortable posting any details about your clutch setup? I'm very interested to see what you came up with.

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Anomaly, would you be comfortable posting any details about your clutch setup? I'm very interested to see what you came up with.

 

I'll ask my machinist buddy if he wants to go public. A lot of thought/head scratching went into it (in the end, his solution is wonderfully simple and solid) and I think he may ultimately want to market it on a wider scale. His call.

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What electric motor where you expecting to use?

 

I am a bit skeptical of the marketing literature of many of these companies, who list their "horsepower equivalents" quite optimistically. As an example one lists their motor as equivalent to a 40 hp diesel, yet rates it at 17 KW continuous input (which is 23 hp, and that's input, not output). Reminds me a little of the compressors at Home Depot of a few years ago or the vacuum cleaners you can get there now: "develops 5 hp" was the nomenclature. Which is a physical fantasy.

 

You do seem to have the ideal use in mind for an electric drive, it will be interesting to hear how it plays out.

I am planning on using a QT20 electric motor from Electric Yacht and a Volvo Saildrive. EY says it will spin an 18" prop, but I don't know what pitch they recommend. My understanding is electric motors have more torque and have full torque at all rpm ranges?

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KDH: My software control unit handles the recharging when using the diesel to turn the electric motor as a giant alternator. I'm not sure it is that precise or that it offers very sophisticated charging "profiles." I deliberately started with a small, lead acid bank because I wasn't certain it made sense to splash a lot of cash on a advanced battery technology like lithium at this point.

 

This was my thinking also. We are planning on using AGM batteries. When they wear out I will take another look at what is new. Why buy a battery with a 20 year life span but that will be obsolete in 10 years?

I am excited about the regeneration of the electric drive. Not sure how much the drag will be, since means turning the 4 bld Max Prop to charge the batteries.

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I imagine using a stanard prop charging through a sail drive will be pretty draggy. I also can't figure out how to lock a folding Max Prop in the open position while sailing so it will spin, that is kind of what they are made not to do. Perhaps they make a product with that function. In the end it might be better to use a dedicated hydrogenerator for charging, less drag and less abuse on the primary drive system. Most can be kicked up out of the water which woud be a plus in light air or when the batts are full.

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AGM life span is very dependent on whether you use these batteries under partial state of charge conditions. In other words the more often they are fully recharged to 100% before use - the longer their life. So - you need to properly size the charging sources. For example Lifelines do best with charge capacity approaching 40% of C/20 available and in no case should the charge source be limited to less than 20% of C/20. 30% is a pretty sensible compromise. Generally you need 14.4 vdc and 13.4 vdc for CV phases and that means a decent regulator like the Balmar MC 612. By the way temperature compensation is a must with AGM Same thing goes for your shore charger. It is highly unlikely you can anything like 10 20 years out of any AGM but it is remotely possible with Rolls flooded (wet) cells.

 

Generally, you really should think of the 'electricals' as a system - not as individual components. You need to size and control the charge sources to work with the battery bank you put in service and that bank should be sized based on your expected use - daily energy consumption. AGM and a gourmet charge system are pretty much overkill if you simply move from slip to sailing and return to slip. Fact is AGM have nothing over wets except a seriously improved rate of charge acceptance.

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What electric motor where you expecting to use?

 

I am a bit skeptical of the marketing literature of many of these companies, who list their "horsepower equivalents" quite optimistically. As an example one lists their motor as equivalent to a 40 hp diesel, yet rates it at 17 KW continuous input (which is 23 hp, and that's input, not output). Reminds me a little of the compressors at Home Depot of a few years ago or the vacuum cleaners you can get there now: "develops 5 hp" was the nomenclature. Which is a physical fantasy.

 

You do seem to have the ideal use in mind for an electric drive, it will be interesting to hear how it plays out.

I am planning on using a QT20 electric motor from Electric Yacht and a Volvo Saildrive. EY says it will spin an 18" prop, but I don't know what pitch they recommend. My understanding is electric motors have more torque and have full torque at all rpm ranges?

 

I'm also following along the hybrid drive topic with interest.

 

DC Electric motors have their greatest torque at zero speed, and it falls off linearly until there's zero torque available at the maximum speed. That 'maximum speed' will reduce as you add load like geartrain and bearing friction - plus pushing water out of the way. Peak power happens at the halfway point between the two, but peak efficiency is above 80% of max speed.

 

What this means is that they have lots of 'oomph' at low speeds, and at full throttle, you end up at a balance between available torque and load. The main load being related to the velocity of the boat squared (or is it cubed?)

 

Compare to gas or diesel engines, which have little torque available at idle, a peak torque at mid rpm's, and reducing torque above that, but generally peak power at highest rpm. We're all used to this torque curve from driving cars, it's kind of a natural transition to marine drive.

 

I would expect that driving an electric boat would be a bit different; That high torque at low speed means you don't have to guess at how much to 'goose' the throttle to give the boat a little push, such as when docking. Or bang the transmission in and out of gear. But it also means you don't get as high a top speed as you might with an 'equivalent' fuel engine. All these things make comparing something like horsepower difficult.

 

 

And to expand on what Kiwanda said...

 

A battery's capacity is called 'C'. For example, "225 amp-hours".

But that doesn't mean you can get 225 amps for one hour, or 2250 amps for 1/10 hour. In fact, if you discharge a lead-acid battery in 3 minutes (i.e. Battlebots), you only get about 20% of C. AGM's do better in this regard too, up to maybe 40%.

 

They base the capacity on draining the battery over 10 or 20 hours; so the example battery above can provide 11.25 amps for 20 hours. That's also called C/20. Of course getting all that out is very bad for the batteries, so for long life, you don't want to regularly discharge below about 40% of the capacity. So 11.25 amps for 12 hours is what you should plan on for that battery (or 5.6A for 24 hours - slower is almost always better).

 

It's also confusing because 'C' is also used to describe current, especially charging. A wet lead-acid doesn't like being charged faster than a fraction of 'C' - maybe only 10%. That is, you shouldn't try to charge that example battery at 225 amps, but rather 20 or 30A. Ok, maybe not the best example, but for smaller batteries this can be an issue. With AGMs, you CAN charge at a full C of current (or more).

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Dave

 

Before you commit I would have a talk with the folks at Dyno Battery in Seattle particularly including your hybrid drive plans. These people know their stuff.

 

Incidentally, Dyno does not make anything except wets however they make the best mid price wets and I doubt their opinions will be influenced by the fact they confine their manufacturing to wets only.

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Joli,

 

When I think "ugly skirt thing", I think of this with the Sunbrella cover all too noticeable and truly ugly at the foot of the sail. I don't see that in the photo of your ship. Please explain?

 

stackpack_web.jpg

That's exactly what we have Semi but when sailing we typically roll it up and pull the spectra lazy cradles forward. We made some modifications to it, we use a continuous loop for the zipper so we can zip/unzip from the back of the boom and the main halyard lives on the headboard, we pull it back at sails end. It's literally a 2 minute job to set or strike the main. We also added hayracks/boom wings to support the sail when, striking or reefing. The sail weighs a couple hundred pounds so this is a very important feature for us. Having that damn thing spill over the boom is not a good thing, it's very bulky, hard to get to with the dodger and bimini in the way and 6 foot off the deck. It's imperative the sail stays on the boom. Here is a good picture of the boom wings and the lazy cradle (AKA ugly skirt things). With the big frac rig Dave is going to have and a sizable main, I highly recommend hayracks or a park avenue boom from Offshore.

 

Thanks for that picture Joli, I have been pondering adding them to my boom. Kim

 

Kim, an additional reason that we added the boom wings was for our mooring covers, they require clear real estate above the mainsail to deploy. The lazy cradle and lazy jacks were in the way but when we loosened them to clear the area the main would flop over the side of the boom. With the wings the main sits nicely on the boom and the mooring covers can be used. The lazy jacks are simply pulled forward.

 

at%20a%20mooring_zps1glhdrl1.jpg

 

If you split your mooring cover into 2 pieces those being port and starboard, you can run a bolt rope along the side of the cover and epoxy a track along each side of boom. The result being you do not have to touch the lazy jacks or actually anything at all as they would all be above the mooring covers. Pulling a smaller cover along a track is much faster and easier than climbing over a boom especially when knees don't work all that well in an advancing age.

 

You can also simply run a zipper along the bottom of the lazy jack cover on each side and zip the covers on.

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The QT20 is 27 hp input, so probably low 20's output. That should be fine for most things, not going to cruise at 8 knots but who does anyway. I think the only problem might be powering into a heavy wind and sea. I've got 75 HP, for 99% of the use I bet I never go above 20. The Volvo charts show about 15 hp at my cruising RPM, 6.5 knots typically.

 

You can get a maxprop to drive the shaft. Shift to reverse while sailing (forward) before shutting off and it will drive the shaft until you drive the shaft in forward again.

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The QT20 is 27 hp input, so probably low 20's output. That should be fine for most things, not going to cruise at 8 knots but who does anyway. I think the only problem might be powering into a heavy wind and sea. I've got 75 HP, for 99% of the use I bet I never go above 20. The Volvo charts show about 15 hp at my cruising RPM, 6.5 knots typically.

 

You can get a maxprop to drive the shaft. Shift to reverse while sailing (forward) before shutting off and it will drive the shaft until you drive the shaft in forward again.

I would like to hit 8 kts in flat water with no wind. EY has said it is possible with a DC genset to recharge the battery bank.

I know that I am jumping into the deep end of the custom boat process with this drive system but there are so many advantages I want to give it a try. I wonder if a bigger electric motor is the way to go?

EY recommends the QT20 for boats 42' and 22,000# which puts it right at my boat, not to mention that my boat is long, light and lean. It should be a very easy hull to drive through the water.

I guess I am going to find out one way or another.

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Really interesting part of the build. Thank you so much for sharing all the info, Dave. I am pondering an eventual swap to electric and this has really helped me organize my evaluation.

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I'm not actually considering repowering my boat, but when I run the numbers I am unimpressed. I can see the value for very occasional use but on the sailboat we sometimes spend a day or so powering through light or contrary winds so operating range is a concern. With that in mind, I look at the energy density of diesel fuel vs battery:

 

Diesel fuel gives about 40kW / gallon. Diesel engines are about 50% efficient. Let's say at slow cruising speed (4 kts?) we lose another 50% efficiency. This gives us about 10kW / gallon usable energy. One gallon of diesel weighs 7.5 lbs and has a volume of 231 cu in.

 

A typical lithium battery (Mastervolt MLI Ultra 24/5000) has about 5kW capacity. It weighs 128 lbs and has a volume of 2688 cu in.

 

It would take two of these batteries to match the usable power of one gallon of diesel fuel. In the same volume as these two batteries I could carry 22 gallons of diesel. The batteries would weigh 256 lbs, while that gallon of diesel would weigh 7.5 lbs. With reasonable tank sizes, the fuel tank weight is relatively inconsequential.

 

My boat carries 100 gallons of diesel, and while I've never run out, it's been close. To power for extended ranges I would need to have a diesel co-generator. While a properly-sized generator will be smaller and lighter, and probably more efficient, by the time you get to actually turning the propeller I suspect that it's a wash at best.

 

With these numbers I don't see an electric drive in my future. I sometimes use a Torqueedo electric outboard for the dinghy, but that's a completely different useage. I also have a small gas outboard for when I need the range.

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Are you familiar with the Lion Class yacht Siandra, which a couple called Perryman have been cruising round the world for years? They did an electric conversion about five years ago, and changed back pdq. It was a less sophisticated setup than these hybrid ones you've been talking about, but one fact I remember from it was that the notion of recharging while under sail using the prop was pretty much a non-starter.

Their story will probably respond to Ogling. They're very likeable (in print at least) and good writers.

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I'm not actually considering repowering my boat, but when I run the numbers I am unimpressed.

 

 

 

I can't see it working well for a long or even short distance cruising boat. But Dave has said he is daysailing and occasionally overnighting. For that I thing it is beginning to get practical, if still expensive.

 

A cruising boat could use electric with a 100% duty cycle diesel generator providing the energy, but it can't be as efficient as turning the prop directly, seems to have few advantages and many disadvantages.

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On a long distance boat, if you are not into carrying a lot of diesel and thus only motor around harbours, it might make sense as you more often need a battery charger than a mean of propulsion.

 

Nevertheless, most people motor quite a lot...

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I'm not actually considering repowering my boat, but when I run the numbers I am unimpressed. I can see the value for very occasional use but on the sailboat we sometimes spend a day or so powering through light or contrary winds so operating range is a concern. With that in mind, I look at the energy density of diesel fuel vs battery:

 

Diesel fuel gives about 40kW / gallon. Diesel engines are about 50% efficient. Let's say at slow cruising speed (4 kts?) we lose another 50% efficiency. This gives us about 10kW / gallon usable energy. One gallon of diesel weighs 7.5 lbs and has a volume of 231 cu in.

 

A typical lithium battery (Mastervolt MLI Ultra 24/5000) has about 5kW capacity. It weighs 128 lbs and has a volume of 2688 cu in.

 

It would take two of these batteries to match the usable power of one gallon of diesel fuel. In the same volume as these two batteries I could carry 22 gallons of diesel. The batteries would weigh 256 lbs, while that gallon of diesel would weigh 7.5 lbs. With reasonable tank sizes, the fuel tank weight is relatively inconsequential.

 

My boat carries 100 gallons of diesel, and while I've never run out, it's been close. To power for extended ranges I would need to have a diesel co-generator. While a properly-sized generator will be smaller and lighter, and probably more efficient, by the time you get to actually turning the propeller I suspect that it's a wash at best.

 

With these numbers I don't see an electric drive in my future. I sometimes use a Torqueedo electric outboard for the dinghy, but that's a completely different useage. I also have a small gas outboard for when I need the range.

 

 

 

That's pretty much what I found when I investigated having FRANCIS be an electric boat. I had a large Torqueedo 2.0 Cruise on my 30 Square Metre boat and really wanted to make FRANCIS electric. I REALLY tried to make it work, but if you want to cruise anywhere around here in the summer (say from Seattle to the San Juan Islands) you can not do it with electric.

 

To have any reasonable range you need the energy storage of diesel. You have to go to the complexity of diesel-electric to get the range necessary around here. And if you install a diesel generator, you have wandered away from the joy and idea of electric.

 

I have owned and driven a pure plug-in electric car, and my electric 30 Square Metre charged its batteries via solar cells. I am an experienced electric vehicle/vessel owner. Once you add an internal combustion engine to the mix you might as well forget being electric. The entire purpose of electric is to eliminate the internal combustion engine.

 

Just my opinion, I wish Dave well, but I would not (and did not) go down the path he is going. I really tried to make it work, but reality reared its head and I stuck with the practical solution.

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When I was a kid my dad used to have a small cruising boat with an outboard that was "gasolineholic". We could only carry about 20 litres of petrol thus our range was may be 20 or 30NM at best. We used to sail as much as possible, sometimes miss tidegates by lack of wind and motor the last few miles (entrance channels can be long in North Brittany). I think that now, if you go "pure" electric, you need to accept to sail like this, it can be done but nowhere near as convenient as a diesel inboard.

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I, too, considered electric for all the reasons anyone wants it and a few extra ones too. For daysailing locally, in Anacortes, it would work. I found with my last boat that I all too often only ran the engine(s) for 15 minutes to get outside the marina. Really tough on diesels and I did feel bad about it. But if it was overnight, then everything changed. I used more electricity with lights, heat and electronics. It was 'always' flat calm for some (not insignificant) period of time and a diesel rectified everything.

 

For a daysailer, what got me, was that I wanted it to be wood and I anticipated going to things like the Wooden Boat Festival in PT. Without diesel, I'd have had to allow two days or more and pick my weather because that 30-45 miles from Anacortes just was too far to ensure motoring if the wind didn't fill in. Oh, I'd probably sail some portion but I knew I needed to be able to have power on the other end getting into a marina. I can't imagine anything worse than being on the last useable amperage and being just outside the marina....

 

Small, non-cruising daysailer, that stays in a marina and never goes more than 15 miles from home? Yup, electric is sweet. But it wasn't my Conditions of Use.

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Sounds like the Prius hybrid type solutions solves most of the issues people have with electric drive. Direct diesel power when you need it, electric power for the other 75%. Just like on the Prius, designing the transmission is the tricky part but it sounds like ddw figured out something.

 

One big advantage that I no one has mentioned yet is the ability to use the huge electric capacity of an electric/hybrid boat for other things... Microwave, beer cooler, bumping stereo, movie projector on the foredeck for the kids.... Whatever

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I am hoping that with a DC diesel generator I can charge the batteries as fast as the Electric motor drains them. My concern would be would I be able to motor upwind and up tide in bad weather if I had to. I know this an experiment and a gamble but I would sure like to give it a try.

Sounds like the Prius hybrid type solutions solves most of the issues people have with electric drive. Direct diesel power when you need it, electric power for the other 75%. Just like on the Prius, designing the transmission is the tricky part but it sounds like ddw figured out something.

 

One big advantage that I no one has mentioned yet is the ability to use the huge electric capacity of an electric/hybrid boat for other things... Microwave, beer cooler, bumping stereo, movie projector on the foredeck for the kids.... Whatever

I am hoping that with a DC diesel generator I can charge the batteries as fast as the Electric motor drains them. My concern would be would I be able to motor upwind and up tide in bad weather if I had to. I know this an experiment and a gamble but I would sure like to give it a try.

 

Sounds like the Prius hybrid type solutions solves most of the issues people have with electric drive. Direct diesel power when you need it, electric power for the other 75%. Just like on the Prius, designing the transmission is the tricky part but it sounds like ddw figured out something.

 

One big advantage that I no one has mentioned yet is the ability to use the huge electric capacity of an electric/hybrid boat for other things... Microwave, beer cooler, bumping stereo, movie projector on the foredeck for the kids.... Whatever

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Sounds like the Prius hybrid type solutions solves most of the issues people have with electric drive. Direct diesel power when you need it, electric power for the other 75%. Just like on the Prius, designing the transmission is the tricky part but it sounds like ddw figured out something.

One big advantage that I no one has mentioned yet is the ability to use the huge electric capacity of an electric/hybrid boat for other things... Microwave, beer cooler, bumping stereo, movie projector on the foredeck for the kids.... Whatever

This my thought too. If I can step the 48v system down to 24v I can run all kinds of gear and just recharge the battery bank with the genset.

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Dave,

 

A large DC generator can charge the batteries as quickly as you draw it down but the size of the generator has to be huge. Let's assume your normal cruising speed is going to draw 15kw or power... So you need at least a 15kw continuious generator to keep even (ignoring efficiency losses). If you need 15kw of propulsion power and only have a 10kw generator then you are pulling 5kw from the batteries with battery size determining how long you can do so.

 

Frankly I have run these number over and over, and the only way it really works is to have two generators onboard. A large one for propulsion, and a smaller one to recharge the batteries and for house loads. But at this point, you might as well hook the larger generator to the drive shaft anyway.

 

Does Bob have propulsion estimates yet? Knowing how much power is necessary at a given speed would go a long way to figuring this out.

 

I am hoping that with a DC diesel generator I can charge the batteries as fast as the Electric motor drains them. My concern would be would I be able to motor upwind and up tide in bad weather if I had to. I know this an experiment and a gamble but I would sure like to give it a try.

Sounds like the Prius hybrid type solutions solves most of the issues people have with electric drive. Direct diesel power when you need it, electric power for the other 75%. Just like on the Prius, designing the transmission is the tricky part but it sounds like ddw figured out something.

One big advantage that I no one has mentioned yet is the ability to use the huge electric capacity of an electric/hybrid boat for other things... Microwave, beer cooler, bumping stereo, movie projector on the foredeck for the kids.... Whatever

I am hoping that with a DC diesel generator I can charge the batteries as fast as the Electric motor drains them. My concern would be would I be able to motor upwind and up tide in bad weather if I had to. I know this an experiment and a gamble but I would sure like to give it a try.

Sounds like the Prius hybrid type solutions solves most of the issues people have with electric drive. Direct diesel power when you need it, electric power for the other 75%. Just like on the Prius, designing the transmission is the tricky part but it sounds like ddw figured out something.

One big advantage that I no one has mentioned yet is the ability to use the huge electric capacity of an electric/hybrid boat for other things... Microwave, beer cooler, bumping stereo, movie projector on the foredeck for the kids.... Whatever

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Dave, have you read Nigel Calder's articles published by Professional Boatbuilder? He did a series of maybe four articles over the last couple years about electric and diesel-electric propulsion. It's heavy reading but covers a lot of bases.

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I've 'been there done that' with electric propulsion motors on a cat I designed 11 years ago and know the consequences and pitfalls. Simple math will tell you that if you have 20 KW propulsion motor if you desire 'steady state' motoring then you need at least 30 KW genset. Our cat had 2 9 KW electric motors which were great but a 15 KW genset and it was always at a deficit and things gradually degraded. Lots of unseen inefficiencies in the loop, beware!

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The problem with electric propulsion is that energy density of batteries is poor compared to diesel so you can't store enough for a sustained trip without recharging.

 

 

400px-Energy_density.svg.png

 

That said, I use a lead-acid battery and trolling motor to dinghy out to the lake boat and just recharge it when I get back. If I tried to do a circumnavigation of the entire lake that way, I would run out of charge.

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What do you think of the idea of having the generator be moveable from side to side - thereby creating righting moment. It could swing like a canting keel, but inside the hull. Lots of challenges on top of the electric/runtime issues mentioned so far, but also some benefits from increased righting moment using weight you have to carry anyway.

I know that it would be a scary thing to have a few hundred kg's swing inside the accommodation, but with proper layout and engineering I think it could be done. And it should still be less scary than having a canting keel.

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I went up to see Bob on Friday to work on my boat [LUCKY GIRL] and we had a great time. He is really busy. We have basically finished the drawing stage and are now specing out the boat. Anyone remember the three lists you make for a sailboat-the stuff you want, the stuff you need, and the stuff you can afford?

Anyway, I hope to go up to see Jim Betts with Bob on Thursday and nail down a start date of [hopefully] August 1st, and a completion date of [really hopefully] July 31, 2017. Jim said it would take a year to build. We are trying to keep the boat a simple daysailor/weekender but with high quality.

One thing that has just blown me away working with Bob is that he is so good at what he does that he is going to end up saving me more money in building the boat than I will end up paying him to design it. I am not sure this would be true of every client, but one way to look at it is that Bob is saving me so much money in the construction of the boat that in the final analysis with regards to the cost, his design fee is free. Think about that. A custom sailboat that is so affordable the design fee is not a real cost. And I get exactly what I want. Not that Bob works for free, his fee is $150 an hour, but he saves me $200 or more an hour in building costs.

I have to admit I am in kind of a daze right now. 11 years ago I was lying unconscious in a hospital bed with the doctors telling my wife to pull the plug, and now here I am on the cusp or realizing a 50 year old dream. A little hard to believe.

After much back and forth we are going to go with a Schaefer roller furling boom. Right now the plan is to bo with a 3cly Volvo DC genset to charge 8 6v 400 amp batteries to drive the electric motor.

Bob said [i think] that the used Farr 40 rig fits my boat to within 1/4" , so this will be a real savings.

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What do you think of the idea of having the generator be moveable from side to side - thereby creating righting moment. It could swing like a canting keel, but inside the hull. Lots of challenges on top of the electric/runtime issues mentioned so far, but also some benefits from increased righting moment using weight you have to carry anyway.

I know that it would be a scary thing to have a few hundred kg's swing inside the accommodation, but with proper layout and engineering I think it could be done. And it should still be less scary than having a canting keel.

Well, the diesel engine is under the cockpit in an isolated engine compartment, to avoid smell and noise. That was the very first requirement of the design. No room to mount it except bolt it down under the cockpit floor under an access hatch.

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What do you think of the idea of having the generator be moveable from side to side - thereby creating righting moment. It could swing like a canting keel, but inside the hull. Lots of challenges on top of the electric/runtime issues mentioned so far, but also some benefits from increased righting moment using weight you have to carry anyway.

I know that it would be a scary thing to have a few hundred kg's swing inside the accommodation, but with proper layout and engineering I think it could be done. And it should still be less scary than having a canting keel.

Well, the diesel engine is under the cockpit in an isolated engine compartment, to avoid smell and noise. That was the very first requirement of the design. No room to mount it except bolt it down under the cockpit floor under an access hatch.

 

Well - it was more of a general remark, not so much a suggestion for your project. I guess I allowed myself a little thread drift. Looking at how the five or more "Bob Perry" threads I follow drift and interact I don't feel guilty.....

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Tacking the generator. :D

 

I remember reading about a disabled guy who sailed in his wheelchair - the crew mounted some sort of athwartship track for his chair and would tack him.

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Electrical isolation will be vital in your case. So now is the time to evaluate any possible stray current effects - no matter how theoretical. Volvo insists its drives are isolated from the vessel and the motor thus to limit the possibility that DC might pass through the drive. Do not overlook consideration of the hull material in this analysis particularly if carbon might be involved. There is considerable research suggesting AC is a destructive threat as well. You should certainly include a true isolation transformer in your plans..

 

One imagines Perry and Betts will have already thought things through but the matter bears special attention since you plan electric propulsion to power the drive leg.

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Electrical isolation will be vital in your case. So now is the time to evaluate any possible stray current effects - no matter how theoretical. Volvo insists its drives are isolated from the vessel and the motor thus to limit the possibility that DC might pass through the drive. Do not overlook consideration of the hull material in this analysis particularly if carbon might be involved. There is considerable research suggesting AC is a destructive threat as well. You should certainly include a true isolation transformer in your plans..

 

One imagines Perry and Betts will have already thought things through but the matter bears special attention since you plan electric propulsion to power the drive leg.

Thanks very much.

After a lot of thought we decided that for what I wanted and the budget I had to work with that we will be using e-glass and epoxy and not carbon fiber. If I had another $50,000 laying around to put into the project I would be using CF, but I don't.

Also, I would really like to try the electric motor, and that is going to cost some dough too.

Still, I think it will be a great boat.

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Going with epoxy is far more important than going with carbon fiber. Good decision. Already looking forward to the build pictures !

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Very interesting and exciting Dave. Thanks for sharing all of this with us and I am looking forward to seeing the photos when the build starts. I love it when dreams become real.

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I went up to see Bob on Friday to work on my boat [LUCKY GIRL] and we had a great time. He is really busy. We have basically finished the drawing stage and are now specing out the boat. Anyone remember the three lists you make for a sailboat-the stuff you want, the stuff you need, and the stuff you can afford?

Anyway, I hope to go up to see Jim Betts with Bob on Thursday and nail down a start date of [hopefully] August 1st, and a completion date of [really hopefully] July 31, 2017. Jim said it would take a year to build. We are trying to keep the boat a simple daysailor/weekender but with high quality.

One thing that has just blown me away working with Bob is that he is so good at what he does that he is going to end up saving me more money in building the boat than I will end up paying him to design it. I am not sure this would be true of every client, but one way to look at it is that Bob is saving me so much money in the construction of the boat that in the final analysis with regards to the cost, his design fee is free. Think about that. A custom sailboat that is so affordable the design fee is not a real cost. And I get exactly what I want. Not that Bob works for free, his fee is $150 an hour, but he saves me $200 or more an hour in building costs.

I have to admit I am in kind of a daze right now. 11 years ago I was lying unconscious in a hospital bed with the doctors telling my wife to pull the plug, and now here I am on the cusp or realizing a 50 year old dream. A little hard to believe.

After much back and forth we are going to go with a Schaefer roller furling boom. Right now the plan is to bo with a 3cly Volvo DC genset to charge 8 6v 400 amp batteries to drive the electric motor.

Bob said [i think] that the used Farr 40 rig fits my boat to within 1/4" , so this will be a real savings.

Great project and a lovely boat design, Dave. Congratulations. Love to follow the build process, as it happens.

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Bob and I are going to meet up at Jim's shop in Anacortes this morning. I am bringing up the spreaders and other mast parts to the used carbon fiber Farr 40 stick that Bob found for me for $4000. I bought it from Eric Bentsen, a marine surveyor here in Seattle who had bought it for a project that never got started. He was a very nice guy and offered to help Jim if he needed it.

We are going to get a better look at the mast, since neither Bob or Jim have ever seen it. I heard that someone had backed into it with a fork lift but I couldn't see any damage while it was surrounded by other masts but I was told it would be an easy fix.

We will be using the Schaefer in-boom furling.

I will also be talking to Jim about the hybrid diesel/electric propulsion system. I am planning on using the QT20 motor from Electric Yacht with a 400amp 48 volt battery pack and Volvo diesel DC generator [probably the 27 hp 3 cly]. The guys at EY have complete confidence that the QT20 has enough power to push my 20,000# boat as they has used it on 22,000# to 24,000# boats in the past. Those were with shaft and prop setups - they told me that the sail drive is 10% - 15% more efficient based on their experience. If I can get 8 kts at max thrust I will be more than happy, since I plan on motoring at 7 -7 1/2 knots.

The propulsion system is the most exciting part of the project. I already know the rest of the boat will be perfect.

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Bob and I are going to meet up at Jim's shop in Anacortes this morning. I am bringing up the spreaders and other mast parts to the used carbon fiber Farr 40 stick that Bob found for me for $4000. I bought it from Eric Bentsen, a marine surveyor here in Seattle who had bought it for a project that never got started. He was a very nice guy and offered to help Jim if he needed it.

We are going to get a better look at the mast, since neither Bob or Jim have ever seen it. I heard that someone had backed into it with a fork lift but I couldn't see any damage while it was surrounded by other masts but I was told it would be an easy fix.

We will be using the Schaefer in-boom furling.

I will also be talking to Jim about the hybrid diesel/electric propulsion system. I am planning on using the QT20 motor from Electric Yacht with a 400amp 48 volt battery pack and Volvo diesel DC generator [probably the 27 hp 3 cly]. The guys at EY have complete confidence that the QT20 has enough power to push my 20,000# boat as they has used it on 22,000# to 24,000# boats in the past. Those were with shaft and prop setups - they told me that the sail drive is 10% - 15% more efficient based on their experience. If I can get 8 kts at max thrust I will be more than happy, since I plan on motoring at 7 -7 1/2 knots.

The propulsion system is the most exciting part of the project. I already know the rest of the boat will be perfect.

Dave, Erik Bentzen is a stand up guy and VERY talented on virtually anything related to sailboats. He has been VERY helpful on FRANCIS LEE. He was also my insurance surveyor when we built her. Great guy to have on your team. Kim

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During the design and build process it might be wise to include a motor mount for the appropriate diesel to sit on. If electric doesn't work out as you hoped the mount would already be in place. Pluck the electric motor and drop in the Volvo. It might even be a good option for resale?

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Electrical isolation will be vital in your case. So now is the time to evaluate any possible stray current effects - no matter how theoretical. Volvo insists its drives are isolated from the vessel and the motor thus to limit the possibility that DC might pass through the drive. Do not overlook consideration of the hull material in this analysis particularly if carbon might be involved. There is considerable research suggesting AC is a destructive threat as well. You should certainly include a true isolation transformer in your plans..

 

One imagines Perry and Betts will have already thought things through but the matter bears special attention since you plan electric propulsion to power the drive leg.

Thanks very much.

After a lot of thought we decided that for what I wanted and the budget I had to work with that we will be using e-glass and epoxy and not carbon fiber. If I had another $50,000 laying around to put into the project I would be using CF, but I don't.

Also, I would really like to try the electric motor, and that is going to cost some dough too.

Still, I think it will be a great boat.

 

 

Have you considered hemp or e-glass + CF in strategic places?

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We are looking at a variety of electric options at this time. No decision has been made. Today's visit to the yard was mostly to check out Dave's mast. I had some carbon cutter business but I can multi task. The spar looks very good and Dave has all the pieces needed to put it together. My next job will be to measure it and compare the measurements to those on the drawings from the Farr office. We knew there was some damage to the stick but it tok us quite a while to find it. It's very minor. Jim Antrim will be up next Friday and he will give it a once over.

 

I'll post some CF cutter pics on that thread when I get them downloaded. I'l post some on the origami thread too just to piss of the knotted knickers group. Can't let them go the day without something to whine about.

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I'll post some CF cutter pics on that thread when I get them downloaded. I'l post some on the origami thread too just to piss of the knotted knickers group. Can't let them go the day without something to whine about.

 

Just in case you need your knickers ironed. :rolleyes:

 

Ragsschooner.jpg

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During the design and build process it might be wise to include a motor mount for the appropriate diesel to sit on. If electric doesn't work out as you hoped the mount would already be in place. Pluck the electric motor and drop in the Volvo. It might even be a good option for resale?

Great idea, Dave is using a saildrive anyway, so glass in the integrated engine mount, and fabricate the electric engine supports so they use the existing Diesel engine mounts.

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I'll post some CF cutter pics on that thread when I get them downloaded. I'l post some on the origami thread too just to piss of the knotted knickers group. Can't let them go the day without something to whine about.

 

There's just no hiding your malicious intent, is there Bob - it's been obvious to me for many years. On these forums, you are a rude fucking prick.

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There's just no hiding your malicious intent, is there Bob

Wow. someone needs a humor transplant. stat.

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I really hope my boat thread doesn't turn into another ugly shit fight. I have worked very hard for 50 years to get a custom BP boat, I just want to enjoy the entire process.

Just speaking for myself, Bob Perry is going a fantastic job on my boat, better than I had ever hoped.

Anyway, very exciting day as I met with Jim and Bob at the yard and we looked at the used carbon fiber Farr 40 stick. It sure is a lot taller than my Tartan 37 mast, and it has to get even taller. Jim will have to add [i think] about a foot to the heel to get the gooseneck as high off the cabin trunk as we need.

post-116445-0-25470300-1464969643_thumb.jpg

post-116445-0-83675900-1464969692_thumb.jpg

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Here are a couple of more shots. The mast just seems to go on forever.

When I got the mast I also got the four spreaders and all the hardware.

The mast is set up for rod rigging.

post-116445-0-84608000-1464969878_thumb.jpg

post-116445-0-75202200-1464969889_thumb.jpg

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I think next week we should take the 100' tape measure and check the mat dims against my drawings and see exactly what we have for bury.

Sounds like more boatyard fun to me.

Jim Antrim will be at the yard on Friday I think. It would be great to be there when he first sees the cutters. He has been a big part of the project as he will be on your project too.

I don't mind going up Thursday and Friday. Your call Dave.

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I am up for meeting Jim on Friday morning.

Here is a close up of Bob's final lines drawing that Jim will be using for the mold.

Bob told me he spent more time on this sheer than any other boat, and I know we went around and around on the bow profile.

My point to Bob was that "Hey, it's a custom boat, why do we want it to look like just any other boat with a straight stem and an 37 degree IOR bow? Let's do something different."

So Bob went into his bag of tricks with his lines drawing program [which is one of the most fun things to play with, I lost track of the hours we spent playing with my boat on that program] and created this beautiful bow.

It is not old style with lots of speed robbing overhang or plumb like all the modern boats, just moderate and graceful and just what I wanted.

I included the bow plan and the sections and the specs to show how the bow all came together.

I love it.

Oops.

I guess you can only attach .pdf as a download and not a thumbnail like a .jpg, so I attached both. The ,pdf is a higher resolution drawing.

I am a real rookie at this stuff but sure having a lot of fun.

cp44 cad 6-2-16 bow and sections.pdf

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What the heck, here is a close up of the stern.

What is funny about this is after Bob had done all the prelims I showed them to my wife. She took one look for about three seconds, and asked me "Where is the washer/dryer?"

I was stunned and asked her "Why do you want a washer/dryer on a daysailor or weekender?"

She came back and said if I wanted her on the boat, it was going to have a washer/dryer. I want her on the boat and having a good time at the annual Perry Rendezvous every August up at Port Ludlow for three days.

So I went up to see Bob, who told me that if Bokhee wanted a washer/dryer on the boat, we had better find a place to put one. Those things weigh 140 # and are a huge box [by my criteria], and they have to be vented. We looked everywhere on the boat and failed until Bob cut the boat in half athwartships and added about 4 1/2 inches to the LOA and about a foot and half to the waterline. Then we put the W/D under the head cabinet but facing the main cabin. More Perry magic!!

So between that and having to add 2" to the life raft locker under the cockpit sole aft, the boat grew to 44.11' LOA and 38.17' LWL.

But everything fits and most important my wife has her W/D and to be honest I can see the pleasure in having a warm dry fluffy towel to use after every shower. So I can live with it.

stern and body plan 2-16.pdf

post-116445-0-55268900-1464980067_thumb.jpg

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What the heck, here is a close up of the stern.

What is funny about this is after Bob had done all the prelims I showed them to my wife. She took one look for about three seconds, and asked me "Where is the washer/dryer?"

I was stunned and asked her "Why do you want a washer/dryer on a daysailor or weekender?"

She came back and said if I wanted her on the boat, it was going to have a washer/dryer. I want her on the boat and having a good time at the annual Perry Rendezvous every August up at Port Ludlow for three days.

So I went up to see Bob, who told me that if Bokhee wanted a washer/dryer on the boat, we had better find a place to put one. Those things weigh 140 # and are a huge box [by my criteria], and they have to be vented. We looked everywhere on the boat and failed until Bob cut the boat in half athwartships and added about 4 1/2 inches to the LOA and about a foot and half to the waterline. Then we put the W/D under the head cabinet but facing the main cabin. More Perry magic!!

So between that and having to add 2" to the life raft locker under the cockpit sole aft, the boat grew to 44.11' LOA and 38.17' LWL.

But everything fits and most important my wife has her W/D and to be honest I can see the pleasure in having a warm dry fluffy towel to use after every shower. So I can live with it.

 

please don't tell my wife that those exist....

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The best answer when your wife asks "where is the washer/dryer?" is "What color would you like."

 

Hey, things like this are what makes this a custom design.

 

When Dave leaves my office he usually says, "It's perfect! I can't think of anything I'd change."

My response is always, "Yeah, right Dave."

It's a slow and thorough refinement process and that will continue right up to the time the boat is finished.

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Assuming you mean one of the all-in-one washer-dryers, and you seem serious, have her try one first. We had one in our little apartment and then we put it on the Columbia 43 we bought and lived on until common sense prevailed, and it was fairly useless. We called it 'the wrinkler'. Love your story and plans by the way, Dave.

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Owen:

Yes, it's the all in one vented variety. I have had good luck with the vented ones but not good luck with the non vented variety. Dave has devised a clever way of venting the machine. Dave won't say it but he has worked very hard making sure that every feature of the interior has been thoroughly researched and refined. Still it's always a learning process.

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My wife actually uses one of those hand crank washing machine jobbies on the boat.

I offered to fit a washer dryer and she declined. I think she's secretly going to just go ashore when we're permanently cruising and hire out the laundry...

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My wife actually uses one of those hand crank washing machine jobbies on the boat.

I offered to fit a washer dryer and she declined. I think she's secretly going to just go ashore when we're permanently cruising and hire out the laundry...

 

And there's nothing wrong with that... sounds like she's a keeper!

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My wife actually uses one of those hand crank washing machine jobbies on the boat.

I offered to fit a washer dryer and she declined. I think she's secretly going to just go ashore when we're permanently cruising and hire out the laundry...

French toast girl + hand crank washing machine... Sold!

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Here is the drawing of the layout that shows the washer/dryer.

It hides behind a door that opens up into the main cabin. The door swing is not shown, I am going to use lift out hinges so the door is easy to remove if necessary.

The door to the head opens both ways so I can leave it open an swinging in, or open out to make it easy to get in and out of the head.

You can also see the battery banks P&S for the electric motor under the P&S settees.

post-116445-0-10859300-1465005265_thumb.jpg

head and washer dryer.pdf

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Here is the head and washer dryer in profile.

By the way, as far as I have seen Jim Betts is every thing Bob says he is as a builder.

All the drawers and lockers forward of the pilot berth and settee is the pantry opposite the galley.

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head and washer profile.pdf

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Here is the galley and forward stateroom. The stateroom is large because I wanted to leave room to add a small second head on the starboard side in the future if needed.

What I like about this arrangement is you not only have the head aft by the companion way, but the area opposite the fwd galley [which would be where the head would normally be] is more useful as a pantry and more open that the more normal hanging lockers. I already have two large hanging lockers in the fwd stateroom and a huge wet locker aft in the head.

The door to the fwd stateroom is a custom water tight door that will look just like a normal stateroom door with hidden locks. Hopefully.

The storage area under the fwd berth is for occasionally used sails.

Bob called me today and said that while he was working on the joiner sections he found room to move the stove another 4" outboard.

Bob does it again!!!!

post-116445-0-95738600-1465006210_thumb.jpg

galley and forwadr stateroom.pdf

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