couchsurfer

....got stung by the 'WASZP'?..OD foiler...

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Is $12-15K really the point at which parents decide they'll go out and get one for their youth? They'll want to make sure that in 6 months time it doesn't get boring and they decide to move onto the next $12k hobby. Also, if that's so I need to have a lot more savings in the bank for when my daughter reaches that age. And are there really no $12k Mach 2's around? Moth's seem to be be $5k Bladeriders that everyone tells you to stay away from or $25K Mach 2's. So I get there's a middle ground, but I really question this "youth market" line.

Me too. Especially if by youth you mean teens. 18 to 23 on their first job plus a loan from there perents maybe.

Only very few parents would buy their teen child a boat for that kind of money. My guess. Amac might have other data.

29er are often club boats, at least in the clubs i know of. And parents only buy a new boat for very talented and committed children. The average teen does it for a year or two then goes on to football, girls or drugs or whatever. The one's who stick are very few.

Exactly my concern. Now there's probably a good few from the mccaunaghy circle reading this thinking that we all ask too much and that 15 grand is about as far down as they can reach without going bankrupt. It's probably the case that they can't go any lower. However, the vast majority of consumers can't afford a 12 grand boat either. At least in the USA, middle class incomes have been stagnant for 30 years while the number of "chronic luxuries" we are expected to purchase (iphones, laptops, netflix accounts, data plans, cable plans) has skyrocketed. This means that mass market disposable income has radically shrunk. I have a suspicion that mr.mcdougal knows this. If so, "youth market" means the children of the Mercedes Benz driving adults who buy new M2s every year. All in all, even that is a worthwhile effort. Sailboat manufacturers have been moving away from middle and low income customers for a long time, and the wazp really doesn't signal a significant change. It looks cheap compared to everything else, but that just tells us how badly out of whack everything else is. This is what I get for studying economics in college....

 

DRC

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Is $12-15K really the point at which parents decide they'll go out and get one for their youth? They'll want to make sure that in 6 months time it doesn't get boring and they decide to move onto the next $12k hobby. Also, if that's so I need to have a lot more savings in the bank for when my daughter reaches that age. And are there really no $12k Mach 2's around? Moth's seem to be be $5k Bladeriders that everyone tells you to stay away from or $25K Mach 2's. So I get there's a middle ground, but I really question this "youth market" line.

Me too. Especially if by youth you mean teens. 18 to 23 on their first job plus a loan from there perents maybe.

Only very few parents would buy their teen child a boat for that kind of money. My guess. Amac might have other data.

29er are often club boats, at least in the clubs i know of. And parents only buy a new boat for very talented and committed children. The average teen does it for a year or two then goes on to football, girls or drugs or whatever. The one's who stick are very few.

Exactly my concern. Now there's probably a good few from the mccaunaghy circle reading this thinking that we all ask too much and that 15 grand is about as far down as they can reach without going bankrupt. It's probably the case that they can't go any lower. However, the vast majority of consumers can't afford a 12 grand boat either. At least in the USA, middle class incomes have been stagnant for 30 years while the number of "chronic luxuries" we are expected to purchase (iphones, laptops, netflix accounts, data plans, cable plans) has skyrocketed. This means that mass market disposable income has radically shrunk. I have a suspicion that mr.mcdougal knows this. If so, "youth market" means the children of the Mercedes Benz driving adults who buy new M2s every year. All in all, even that is a worthwhile effort. Sailboat manufacturers have been moving away from middle and low income customers for a long time, and the wazp really doesn't signal a significant change. It looks cheap compared to everything else, but that just tells us how badly out of whack everything else is. This is what I get for studying economics in college....

 

DRC

I agree 100%,from a southern europe perspective.

 

I plaude unconditionally to Amac initiative to make a more affordable OD moth, but I suspect that,especially at the beginning,you'll see more adults that youngsters buying the boat.

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Different markets in different parts of the world. AUS and GBR have good dinghy club scene with privately owned boats and more potential teen saiors than USA where small boats are more club owned.

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The mach2 2nd hand market will mature and the prices will come down, there is a fair turnover at the top of the fleet to fuel that, also buyers of 'new' that could not or did not carry on.

Also reckon there's a good chance the waszp will suit non-youth as much as (?or more than?) youth

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WASZP sighting. Black rock. No wind = no sailing. Heard website is going up early July.

 

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Different markets in different parts of the world. AUS and GBR have good dinghy club scene with privately owned boats and more potential teen saiors than USA where small boats are more club owned.

 

Yep. Quite a few 29ers at my club and they are not club boats. There are quite a few sailing families that wouldn't baulk at this kind of expenditure on a youth boat. Families on a higher than average income, by all means.

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...as much of many of us would like it to be, sailing is about as far from an every man working class sport as you can get before you start buying horses or go karts. Even Lasers are to expensive for a majority of people to buy.

There are still plenty of numpties with plenty of cash to spank on all kinds of stuff though...and to use more economics jargon there are a lot more middle class people in the world now than there were 10-20-30-40 years ago thanks to the growth of the BRIC countries...

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There are more millionaires in the United States than ever before. The number of households with net worth of $1 million or more, excluding their homes, is at a record 9.63 million, according to a new report.Mar 13, 2014

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just proving a point that the potential pool of purchasers for a 15k sailing toy for kids is still bigger than the population of a lot of countries.

 

What do all those Opti parents spend after the kids turn 14 and they no longer are spending 50k/year on their program?

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just proving a point that the potential pool of purchasers for a 15k sailing toy for kids is still bigger than the population of a lot of countries.

 

What do all those Opti parents spend after the kids turn 14 and they no longer are spending 50k/year on their program?

They usually transition into high school sailing / junior race teams in club owned 420s Or FJs. I don't think you are going to get a lot of parents to spend that kind of money on a new class that doesn't have 300 boat fleets they can brag about their kid sailing in.

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Are you really suggesting that only millionaire family are going to buy this? Haha just because there are 9 million millionaires you don't get to say the possible market is 9 million people! If that was the case you could make the argument for any niche product you can think of has having a "market".

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Guys this is a sailing boat its not a mass market product. Its not junk food or soft drink where they add sugar and colour to water and charge you 1000 times the cost to pay for the huge marketting campaign.

Sailing is a small niche, foiling is a small part of that niche. There are plenty of people in the developped world with enough money and interest in fast boats.

The WAZP is not going to sell like Lasers did in the heyday.

Mac and Mac have built and sold nearly 1500 moths in the last 8 years, more than anyone else in the 80+ year history of the moth class. They do not plan to stop making and selling Mach2s but I think they would like to sell even more WAZPs.

The WAZP may take a few sales away from the Mach2, and from a few other youth oriented boats but it also might hold some people in our sport who would otherwise drift off to somethng a bit more exciting, and if that makes the total number of sailors larger then it wil lbe a good thing for our sport in general.

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i still don't understand the "youth orientation". millionaires or not...

I just doesn't make sense to me right now. But I'd enjoy to be proven wrong. I'm sure they thought about it thoroughly!

Anyway, where does this "youth market" orientation thing come from anyway? The homepage is not online.

Is it just some BS somebody posted here on SA?

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Are you really suggesting that only millionaire family are going to buy this? Haha just because there are 9 million millionaires you don't get to say the possible market is 9 million people! If that was the case you could make the argument for any niche product you can think of has having a "market".

 

Read more carefully. I was responding to an earlier post claiming that there are too few people with real money to make a market for something like this boat. It's simply not true, and my statistic proves that there are a lot of fucking people with money to blow on 15k toys for their kids. Hell, my sister's kids (and she is by no means super rich, just a good corporate atty) have 100k worth of plastic shit before they reach 7.

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Lot of cool ideas! Can't wait to see it live on Friday, to see how controls are rigged.

It seems it has only ride height adjuster and no gearing or wand lenght adjustment.

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I really like the rig, dunno why we haven't seen more of this.

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From the new website gallery:

 

z4ig9.jpg

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I spoke with him about this too. Have a look at whales, closely.

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Forget the feathers, the WASZP web site says they will not be on the final production version.

Josh used them and Josh goes fast, but not because of the feathers.

I suspect the detail design is pretty critical and making them in nylon might open up the posibility of getting them bent and really messing up the whole design concept.

 

There is plenty more in the details of the Waszp well worth studying, plenty of innovative ideas, some borrowed, some refined, some new. Making things work well while simplifying manufacture and operation, very clever boat. Lots of interest and I hope lots of orders. If I did not already own two moths I would be ordering one for myself.

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The angle of the boom gives an idea of the proportionality of leech vs foot tension required by the sail. It looks a little ungainly being so high up but if that is the geometry required then so be it.

I wonder if alternate sail plan forms were considered which would have resulted in a more balanced loading between leech and foot, ie a higher clew?

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Looks like a lot of fun. Sadly foilers are not suitable at a lot of smaller inland clubs in the UK.

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The video ceased playing at 26 min in-anybody else experience that?

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The video ceased playing at 26 min in-anybody else experience that?

 

A problem in all versions, needs another upload after checking the source file for problems.

 

Just as things started to get interesting about the tips.

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Is it going to come in a box like the Mach2? really thinking about putting some money down on a build spot.

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I guess do phil. I said of the problem to the FW staff a couple of hours ago; hopefully a correct version will be up soon.

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a new mach 2 is what? around $17,000? if this thing really is going to be selling for half the price of a mach 2. $8500 it could absolutely stand to be the proverbial "peoples foiler" shit a new club 420 costs $8500. yes it will be heavier and slower than a mach 2 but if enough people buy into it they could well be racing as their own OD fleet separate from the high dollar, high performance moths. a lot of time, effort and money have gone into this boat. I don't they're gonna fuck it up with poor marketing.

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The quoted $17K for an M2 is $US ex China, so add freight, taxes, and if you are going to race seriously quite a few extras. In Australia that now adds up to over $AUS30K, so probably $US24K. If the WASZP comes out at half these figures delivered its still going to be good value.

AMAC always said the target price was 150% of a Laser, Not sure what that is now but even if its twice the cost of a Laser it will still attract lots of buyers.

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Looks like a lot of fun. Sadly foilers are not suitable at a lot of smaller inland clubs in the UK.

I promise to never sail my waszp at any smaller inland clubs in the UK. :P

 

Me too actually.

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I had a look at the boat (already disassembled) this afternoon, before they packed-it up.. It seems Pretty well executed :)

 

Hull-wise, It looks somethng between a Mach2 as an Exocet; mast hole is reeally deep, almost to the bottom of the hull.

It seems to have just two lines set-up, outhaul and downhaul, + ride height adjuster.

 

I took a couple of shots with the phone, but they don't look good.

 

They are already getting 300$ fees for the build slots, and they have already got 40/50 reservations in these couple of days. some of these are from guys racing moths here in Malcesine.

 

Overall, really nice boat :)

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Looks like a lot of fun. Sadly foilers are not suitable at a lot of smaller inland clubs in the UK.

 

Sadly you missed the bit where Amac says it's designed to also work very well as a lowrider with the main horizontal foil removed. Likely there will be a class rule that sailing in less that 5 or 6 kn of breeze will require the non–foiling setup. Maybe you also missed that the stayless rig means better dead–down–wind performance (i.e. Laser style sailing by the lee). Also, there's beefed–up volume near the stern courtesy of some step chines, probably to add stiffness for the rudder gantry but a by–product is better pitch stability in lowrider mode.

 

So it might be a bit of a weapon in very light air.

 

It surprises me that the biggest rig is 7.7m. I would have expected a full 8.25m, especially if designed for 100kg crew. But I guess he knows what he's doing…

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Looks like a lot of fun. Sadly foilers are not suitable at a lot of smaller inland clubs in the UK.

Sadly you missed the bit where Amac says it's designed to also work very well as a lowrider with the main horizontal foil removed. Likely there will be a class rule that sailing in less that 5 or 6 kn of breeze will require the nonfoiling setup. Maybe you also missed that the stayless rig means better deaddownwind performance (i.e. Laser style sailing by the lee). Also, there's beefedup volume near the stern courtesy of some step chines, probably to add stiffness for the rudder gantry but a byproduct is better pitch stability in lowrider mode.

 

So it might be a bit of a weapon in very light air.

 

It surprises me that the biggest rig is 7.7m. I would have expected a full 8.25m, especially if designed for 100kg crew. But I guess he knows what he's doing

UK inland sailing is mostly on very small (as in really really small, could only be a couple of 100m in both directions) and sometimes very crowded ponds. Most of the UK is quite flat and inland sailing does not necessarily mean light winds. However it typically mean gusty winds.

Being way faster than all the other boats on such a water might be fun for a bit but i wouldn't buy a wasp for that.

a lot of the UK dinghy racing takes place on such lakes, reservoirs and ponds.

besides i wouldn't buy a foiler to use it as a non foiler.

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But anywhere in the UK is ony an hour or two from the coast, so there surely has to be somewhere reasonably close which is better to sail.

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^

There's a club on a puddle 15 minutes from me but I drive 60 minutes to sail on the coast. Plenty choose to do the same. Quite a few own caravans or 2nd homes near the coast and make a family weekend of it.

It's just a statement of the bleeding obvious that this boat is unsuitable for small inland clubs in the UK, it's always been thus for fast boats. The existing Moth hot-spots here are coastal clubs for a reason. The same goes for most (not all) cat sailing.

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Most of the UK is quite flat

 

Not really. Scotland and Wales are still part of the UK and apart from the central belt of Scotland are not notably flat. Most of northern England is hilly or mountainous, most of SW England is covered with steep little hills.

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Well of course it is not dead flat. There are hilly regions, there are mountainous regions. The southern hills don't really get in the way of the wind for what i know.

In many parts of the country you get good inland breeze, not like here in Switzerland.

Of course it's all relative.

It's not really lake garda either.

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The quoted $17K for an M2 is $US ex China, so add freight, taxes, and if you are going to race seriously quite a few extras. In Australia that now adds up to over $AUS30K, so probably $US24K. If the WASZP comes out at half these figures delivered its still going to be good value.

AMAC always said the target price was 150% of a Laser, Not sure what that is now but even if its twice the cost of a Laser it will still attract lots of buyers.

A almost fully optioned Mach 2 cost me $28k last year when the AUD was buying about 90c us, so I expect now over $30k as you say. Because some costs are not reduced such as freight, transport box, etc I suspect that it will end up closer to $20k in Aus, but still within the reach of a lot more people than $30k.

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My guess:

Move the wand a tiny bit further forward,

Add volume low down for heavier crews.

Eliminate flat surfaces, and add curves due to low tech, low cost laminate.

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The website quotes a target price of US$11,600 delivered but excluding any import duties and tax. That is looking like AU$ 18K including everything

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A keen WASZP owner could easily upgrade their rig to composite wings and foils to lose some of that weight.

 

I doubt that you'd save more than a couple of kg and spend maybe $5 to $7k or more (especially for foils). There are two upgrades that might make sense: full 8.25m sail and adjustable wand. I'm surprised it doesn't have the latter as standard.

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If you're going to upgrade a waszp just buy a Farking real moth! It'll probably be cheaper, almost certainly deliver more speed and it won't defeat the one purpose the waszp has- one design cheapo foiling!

 

Also,all the decent UK inland spots have strong,growing moth fleets. Grafham,queen Mary has about 15-20,Draycote and now rutland.

The puddles rightly stick to boats from the 18th century.

 

I agree about the small sail size vs moth. I thought they would have a 9sqm option for the 90 kgs people but maybe they want to keep it tame for a while rather than scaring people off.

 

Good to hear they've got pre-orders. That said it'll crush the second hand demand for mach 2s which will probs cost me a fortune. Oh well

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wow -- lots of really intelligent design choices. http://www.waszp.com/the-details

 

A keen WASZP owner could easily upgrade their rig to composite wings and foils to lose some of that weight.

 

What's the thinking behind the concave bow sections?

 

Upgrading a freestanding mast and sail would not be cheap .

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If you're going to upgrade a waszp just buy a Farking real moth! It'll probably be cheaper, almost certainly deliver more speed and it won't defeat the one purpose the waszp has- one design cheapo foiling!

 

Pointless discussion, IMO. I don't think the Waszp is intended for this at all. It's a stepping stone platform, not an upgradable platform.

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If you're going to upgrade a waszp just buy a Farking real moth! It'll probably be cheaper, almost certainly deliver more speed and it won't defeat the one purpose the waszp has- one design cheapo foiling!

 

Pointless discussion, IMO. I don't think the Waszp is intended for this at all. It's a stepping stone platform, not an upgradable platform.

I think that already the simpler rigging and the OD concept would spur some interest. There're a lot of sailors who would prefer a less top of the line package for more hours on water

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it will be interesting to see if existing moth sailors buy one for its simplicity, or will the top end speed difference be a deterrent ?

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If you're going to upgrade a waszp just buy a Farking real moth! It'll probably be cheaper, almost certainly deliver more speed and it won't defeat the one purpose the waszp has- one design cheapo foiling!

Pointless discussion, IMO. I don't think the Waszp is intended for this at all. It's a stepping stone platform, not an upgradable platform.

I think that already the simpler rigging and the OD concept would spur some interest. There're a lot of sailors who would prefer a less top of the line package for more hours on water

 

Agreed. I would rather sail a boat than work on it.

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One target group could be kite- or windsurfers who want to return to sailing. More fun in less wind

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wow -- lots of really intelligent design choices. http://www.waszp.com/the-details

 

A keen WASZP owner could easily upgrade their rig to composite wings and foils to lose some of that weight.

 

What's the thinking behind the concave bow sections?

 

Upgrading a freestanding mast and sail would not be cheap .

 

 

bad choice of words, by 'rig' I meant 'setup'. I assume the mast is already CF, and meant they could drop weight on the wings and foils.

 

I see this 'upgrading' as a possible stepping stone to a full moth to help absorb the costs. Then when you take the plunge, the wings and foils can go with you.

 

.. but yes, as many have said, the OD aspect is worth keeping.

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My guess:

Move the wand a tiny bit further forward,

Add volume low down for heavier crews.

Eliminate flat surfaces, and add curves due to low tech, low cost laminate.

 

thanks - I'm guessing 3. is the important bit. 2. is achieved with slab sides (as is 1. ?)

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One target group could be kite- or windsurfers who want to return to sailing. More fun in less wind

 

Guesstimates on take off wind requirement? More importantly the upwind number.

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What do existing mothies think? Mixed opinions afik.

 

Probably most see it as a cheap option for moth newcomers, juniors or masters, but still within the moth class.

Some would see it as their next moth, somethng which goes as well as they do and still lets them race with the same back half of the moth fleet and costs a lot less money.

 

A few might see it as a big new class which will take over form the moth as the glamour class at the expense of the moth, but I do not see this.

Some see that concept as a big threat to the Moth class and something to be discouraged.

 

I doubt many existing moth sailors switch a new separate one design class. Too many moth sailors are development orientated, even if its only rig developments. Such developments will inevitably make the WAZP's look and performance out dated.

 

That is not to say that such a class will not happen and become successful based on sales of WASZPs to people wh have never owned a moth.

 

The Moth class will certainly accept WASPZs being registered and raced as moths, which is where they will be raced until they sell enough to the one design buyers.

 

The HobieCat and Laser spent big on marketting in the 70s and stole the market, none of their competitors have managed to match them since with arguably much better boats. It was too late the gap was filled. I do not see the WASP matching that success, but it should sell enough to ensure AMAC can retire comfortably, which he has openly stated as one objective of the project.

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Sailing as a moth at a moth regatta they will be welcome as long as they have a moth sail numbers and class logo, and are paying class dues.

 

The obvious thing would be to add and additional 8.25m sail that fits the wazsp, in "moth" spec. The biggest challenge though once sailing as a moth would be to resist the temptation to start "tweaking" ...

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In that case they already got the class logo and membership. :D

At the end of the day a sold waszp is a sold waszp. Just a problem if the OD group shrinks too much.

 

Looks like the rest of the keynote is dead, bummer.

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Is that big yellow clumpy thing at the mast/boom join going to measure as a Moth? And is the wand allowed in mixed fleet racing or is it a breach of rule 52(?)?

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The yellow thing will measure in if its sewn to the sail and if it does not go below 5.185m from the top of the mast. Otherwise a good pair os scissors will fix it.

 

The wand is banned by RRS 52 on everything unless the class rules amend RRS52. So far only the Moth class rules amend RRS52 afik. I am sure the WASZP rules will include the amenment when they are drafted. Same deal for the S9 and Whisper production catamarans which also have wands.

 

And even if the class rules allow wands, if the SIs for an open event do not specify compliance with class rules then any of these boats could be disqualified if RRS52 was enforced. One day its going to blow up into a big bun fight when it will be time for RRS52 to be rewritten again. At present things like dinghy rudder or centreboard blades being held down/up with shock cord could also be in breach, if anyone got really silly about it.

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Even with an 8.25sqm sail, would a waszp even be remotely competitive with a decent moth?

 

Kind of looks to me like it would have no chance, even despite Amac saying about his non-foiling race which is pretty irrelevant nowadays.

 

If it had no chance would anyone bother coming to a moth event. Maybe a couple? In my experience not many people, other than the REALLY keen who intend to upgrade soon, stick at many events with an old moth that can only come in the back 10% in races.

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Even with an 8.25sqm sail, would a waszp even be remotely competitive with a decent moth?

No. The small rig will probably be pretty quick upwind in a blow (though still slower than a well sailed "real" Moth), however it won't have the legs downwind.

 

If it had no chance would anyone bother coming to a moth event.

Yes. There is a small but growing band of scows that turn up to Nationals. There are plenty of others who know they have no chance of winning or even being in the top half of the silver fleet, but they enjoy sailing the boat. If only people who thought they could win turned up, there'd only be 15 boats at a Worlds.

 

I bet there will be a lot of fiddling with the tips. Soft extensions that provide more lift at low speed, then twist flat at higher speeds seem interesting. Similar tricks are already being done with windsurfer fins.

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I remember the days when I didn't have a current Moth and turned up to the Tide Ride in Em's Fat Bottom boat on Ninja foils, completely un tested and went pretty damn well.

 

Pretty sure a well sailed Wazp will do fine. Just maybe not win stuff. And theres only 2 people winning stuff anyway isn't there?

 

 

Even with an 8.25sqm sail, would a waszp even be remotely competitive with a decent moth?

 

Kind of looks to me like it would have no chance, even despite Amac saying about his non-foiling race which is pretty irrelevant nowadays.

 

If it had no chance would anyone bother coming to a moth event. Maybe a couple? In my experience not many people, other than the REALLY keen who intend to upgrade soon, stick at many events with an old moth that can only come in the back 10% in races.

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Could you have more fun scoring DFL in some other class?

I travel to get DFL in ancient slow SMODs. I would sign up to play if there were some around.

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There's a lot of detail (including the weight) in their website : http://www.waszp.com/the-boat

 

GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS

Length: 3.35m

Width Packed: 43cm

Width Folded: 1m

Width Sailing: 2.25m

Draft launching: 20cm

Draft low riding: 1m

Draft foiling: You choose!

Overall weight: 48 kilos fully rigged with foils

Minimum foiling cruise wind speed: 5 knots

Minimum lift off wind speed: 7 knots

Top speed: 23 knots+

Fun factor: Massive

Target production start: Q4 2015

Target price: $US 11,600 (delivered excluding any import duties and local taxes)

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The lightest moths I have weighed were 32kg. That was a few years ago, a stock Mach2, a Prowler Zero and Luca's Skalpel. Now with longer stiffer foils, stiffer masts and booms plus fairings I would suspect they weigh a few extra kgs.

 

Getting the waszp to 48kg with alloy foils and wings is a good effort for half the money.

 

AMac said the hull only weighs 16kg, which is pretty good for a low tec laminate. The last hand laminated foam/carbon moth hull I made weighs 15kg, Getting less requires factory skills and equipment and usually prepreg carbon.

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Can the rest really weigh 32kg? I guess the wings will be quite heavy (and maybe the inertia helps, tightrope walker style).

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Estimates only:

Mast: 3kg for unstayed 60mm OD mast

wishbone: 2

sail: 3

foils: 3 each of the 4 alloy components

wings 13kg, 6 alloy parts at 2kg plus some fittings

ropes, tramps, controls, wand, fittings 3 or more

gantry 2 but could be more.

TOTAL 32 plus 16 for the hull, 48 as quoted.

 

Like all moths, the hull is the easiest and simplest part.

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i am thinking so much thought has gone into this boat - there has to be a logical reason(s) for smaller than max sail size.

 

maybe the free-standing/wishbone rig set up or engineering ?

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This boat addresses several of the reasons I didn't get a moth when I was looking to get a new boat. $25-30k for a 1 person boat is fairly insane. Same as a new Whisper foiling cat, same as a new 5o5, same as an 80's Porsche Carrera. I point out the Porsche because the (typically) kind of guy interested in foiling si usually interested in other go fast, fiddly hobbies.

 

Back to the Wazsp.

 

Cost about right (see above). Right sround what I paid for my Weta

Huge plusses for a guy in his 40's wanting to try foiling:

Ramp launchable- no crazy sideways over the head or dragging. Besides the fact that where I sail launch areas can't accomodate, the shoulder is iffy sometimes.

No carbon stays to slice me like cheese.

Variable wing angle to help learn to foil. I don't expect to be a ninja on the first time out.

Simple design, one design concept. WIth family committments, I need a high sail: fiddling ratio

Multiple rigs: Daughter just starting junior sailing. SUre is a lot more interesting than an opti.

Still a moth. Sure I may not be in the top of the fleet at a Moth Worlds. So what? I swim masters even though I will never be in the top heats at Nationals there either. Go to Australia/ Lake Garda/ San Francisco/ The Outer Banks. Sail in a big fleet. Meet cool guys and gals. Get separate trophies as a fleet within a fleet. Go home happy

 

The light air features will also work well in the area I sail since it is usually light most of the summer.

 

BP

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Does it *need* to be that narrow. I know it helps with take off speeds, but it's gonna be mighty tippy, especially at low speed, for a "kid off the beach".

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Does it *need* to be that narrow. I know it helps with take off speeds, but it's gonna be mighty tippy, especially at low speed, for a "kid off the beach".

I did't measure it but it felt a bit widerthan a mach2,more similar to an exocet I'd say

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, same as an 80's Porsche Carrera. I point out the Porsche because the (typically) kind of guy interested in foiling si usually interested in other go fast, fiddly hobbies.

 

 

What, never

 

mothAndCar

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AndreasE_NO, that is NOT a Carrera. The 991 is a great car (: But where do you put the moth crate? Roof rack?

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AndreasE_NO, that is NOT a Carrera. The 991 is a great car (: But where do you put the moth crate? Roof rack?

 

Well it is a 911/991 Carrera S, so at least it has a carrera badge :) and it is a truly great car 85K miles and no major issues so far (knock on wood)

 

I could not get myself to put a trailer hitch on it, but the wife is more than happy to swap cars the days i go sailing.

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AndreasE_NO, that is NOT a Carrera. The 991 is a great car (: But where do you put the moth crate? Roof rack?

 

Well it is a 911/991 Carrera S, so at least it has a carrera badge :) and it is a truly great car 85K miles and no major issues so far (knock on wood)

 

I could not get myself to put a trailer hitch on it, but the wife is more than happy to swap cars the days i go sailing.

 

You guys are proving the point I argued at the top of the page.

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I'm not a 1% er, but compared to everything in California. A 2nd hand moth is pretty affordable. And it is on a whole different level than my previous keelboats. So sailing budget is significantly down and fun factor is up.

 

Perhaps time to get back on topic. Who here would buy one? I'm on the fence, want to see something in real life first. The repair-to-sail ratio is the main attraction, cost compared to a new boat 2nd (I'm to heavy and not a good enough sailor to win anything in a moth anyway :)

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