couchsurfer

....got stung by the 'WASZP'?..OD foiler...

Recommended Posts

Maybe I missed it but I would expect him to have a full prototype before planning for production. Are there videos or trials by some pros to confirm it as a sweet ride? He could have used the proto to build the buzz or is he worried about ripoffs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe I missed it but I would expect him to have a full prototype before planning for production. Are there videos or trials by some pros to confirm it as a sweet ride? He could have used the proto to build the buzz or is he worried about ripoffs?

That's not exactly how things work in moth land. To build one boat on this scale tooling gets made and the tooling can be used for 1 or 100. ( or until the tooling dies ) Most of the prototyping work is done as development on the previous design and any one off hand built development parts are productionised. If you look at Amac's TFW session from last year he goes straight from 3d to metal moulds, and focuses on up front design work and then in the field development in lieu of lots of on the water prototyping prior to production. (Typical development class thinking.) Build a platform, and then develop it.

 

With the Wazsp, that development will lock down pretty quickly and only Amac will do it before any boats are sold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ron last boat he developed has transformed the class and global dinghy performance thresholds, its the mach2 do some research

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anyone watched the AMac video through to the end? I couldn't hear a lot of it. ANy big take-aways that aren't available on the website?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's see...

 

He worked hard to make the hull work in low riding mode. Volume down low in the bow to minimize the digging in and chines aft so you could go to the back and put the rudder down. The test sails today for the waszp show that the design ideas are working in reality. The bow doesn't dig like a mach2, instead the bow cuts through and pops back up. Result, better low riding and better recover when coming off the foils.

 

AMac also wants a wind limit for the foils. So in light wind you would just be in low riding mode without the foils and everyone would be out with the same setup.

 

The prototype at the event hasn't been on the water yet. It was the first boat out of the production molds I think he said. He said it's not fully sorted yet so it wouldn't be out during the foiling week event.

 

The foil tips are a work in process. He falls back to the simple end cap idea but doesn't want to give up on the "feather" tips yet.

 

The wishbone boom was working well in testing. It allows the bottom of the sail to get closer to the deck because it's easier to duck a soft sail than a low boom, a un-intended consequence.

 

The current boat is the 4th redesign in 5 years. Advances in the mach2 effect the waszp, like the low speed foils for the mach2 are the same profile being used here in aluminum form.

 

Seems like there was something else, but it's been a few days since I watched it. Simpler, safer and less twitchy moth seems to be what this boat is all about. I go back in forth between, wow would that be cool, and I must be crazy to think I'll ever get it on it's foils. As of 7/24 they have 10 weeks of pre-orders.

 

Cheers, Kevin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Kevin.

 

I'm excited about the boat too but also vacillating between that and wondering how long it would take me to get the hang of foiling. Not excited enough to reserve a build slot, but curious enough to watch how the class develops. It looks like it answers all of the issues I had about getting into moths but I want to see how the last 5-10% of the development (foil tips, class structure and rules, sails, etc.) works out before I'm all in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If your current ride is a Wetta, a skinny Moth will be a serious challenge. Certainly it can be done, but you'll need to approach it with the right mindset and a good coach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If your current ride is a Wetta, a skinny Moth will be a serious challenge. Certainly it can be done, but you'll need to approach it with the right mindset and a good coach.

I get so pissed off reading this sort of comment.When i worked for Bladerider, I used to give test sails to lots of first time Moth sailors. Some were Olympic sailors who took to it straight away but most were regular sailors from all sorts of far slower and easy to sail boats. Yet they all had one thing in common - they all got up on foils and also got home without the need to be rescued.

 

If you can sail other boats properly, you can learn to sail a Moth. You would be surprised just how many "average Joe's" bought boats and lived to tell the tale, mostly with no coach at all. There are enough videos around, written stuff plus friendly advise for it not to be a problem! Boats have improved a lot since the Bladerider and you can be sure that anything from Amac will work very well. So don't listen to people who try to blow it up out of all proportion. Be sensible, 20 knots is too much wind for a first sail :D, do some homework first and expect to swim a fair amount. But don't be intimidated and go for it. YOLO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hehe, Simon, thanks for the vote of confidence.

I feel like sailing 5o5s has prepared me fairly well to step into and adapt to most high performance boats. I realize a moth or Waszp will be an adjustment and there will be a learning curve, but if I can hike as hard as I did on a sunfish and go, say, 20 knots instead of 4 or 5, I'll call that a win.

It also looks like the Waszp website has several placeholders for tips, trick and instructional videos. Once the final details are set and production starts, I get the impression AMac will get some hot shots to show us how it's done and putter around with the boat to figure out tuning settings.

I'd rather carpe the diem than YOLO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to put the use of "carpe diem" in perspective :D

Few years ago Francesco Totti (football player born in Rome who has always played there) was interviewed by an italian journalist at the end of a football match:

 

Question :"quindi, Francesco, come si suol dire "carpe diem"" (so, Francesco, it happened just as they say, "Carpe Diem")

Totti's Answer: "mi spiace, non parlo inglese" (Sorry, I don't speak English)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

nothing more cool than when old brits say YOLO

FML! Now Clean is taking the piss out of me for trying to inject some humour to the end of a serious post. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More points to add to Simon's voice of encouragment.

 

Most people who consider them selves competant sailors will lean to sail the WASZP. These include people who can complete a race in a Laser or similar small boat in 12 - 15kts without even nearly capsizing or even spinning out. These include anyone who has sailed a sailboard and leaned to lean back against the wind in the sail.

 

There are some types who will find it difficult to learn on a moth:

These would include those who go out on their laser, sunfish or similar only ever on their summer holidays and only when the wind is less than 10kts. More skills at balance and sail trim will be needed.

Those who need to board their boat while its tied to a dock, arrange their picnic and then hoist the sails, a moth is not that type of boat.

Those who's only sailing has been grinding in a winch and sitting on the windward rail.

These people need to try some small boat racing first or get a very good coach.

 

The WASZP or any moth requires some fitness. The mainsheet never stops moving, both arms need to have the stamina for this. At the start you will not only be doing numerous push ups, lifting your body onto the centreboard to right the capsized boat, but you will also be doing repeated leg presses when its upright to move your body weight and keep the slow moving boat upright. If your body can not cope with this for a few hours you will find it very hard to progress.

 

But once you have got past the slow speed part and the boat raises onto the foils everything becomes much more stable, remarkably stable. Then things happen much faster and manoevers become the next challenge. By then you are hooked and learning to gybe and tack will come in stages, depending on how much time and effort is committed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

If your current ride is a Wetta, a skinny Moth will be a serious challenge. Certainly it can be done, but you'll need to approach it with the right mindset and a good coach.

I get so pissed off reading this sort of comment.

[…]

 

Whatever.

 

Your post goes on to pretty much agree with what I said. I've seen otherwise capable hopefuls who thought it was easy give up in disgust. Setting expectations is important. If my comments talked him out of it he was never going to make it, but I suspect I haven't and he will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

agreed, most young brits still say carpe diem in such circumstances.

 

Years ago there was an advert from (British) Hunter with a line.......Granny says, life is not a dress rehearsal.

 

Most young Brits say carpe diem do they? Gosh, the schools must be better than I thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

agreed, most young brits still say carpe diem in such circumstances.

 

Years ago there was an advert from (British) Hunter with a line.......Granny says, life is not a dress rehearsal.

 

Most young Brits say carpe diem do they? Gosh, the schools must be better than I thought.

 

 

 

'tis true, they probably don't. Many wouldn't know what facetious means either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I first started building my moth in 2008, I had never seen a moth before except in pictures and videos. When I launched the boat the first time I was guessing how to rig some of the parts and had just a vague hope that many of the systems I built would actually work. The only thing I took with me on my first sail was the information that I’d gleaned from the internet and the encouragement from the online moth community and SA. I was foiling on my first day (until some parts broke) and attempted a foiling gibe on my second day. When people ask me “is that hard?” I say it’s like riding a bike. If you try to learn how to ride a bike as an adult, it will be tricky and you will fall but you’ll figure it out after a while. Once you feel the balance of the boat it really isn’t difficult (except foiling tacks, those are feaking impossible). Once you fly there is no going back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to admit, I had to look up 'dummy spit'. I'll have to try and use that one.

 

@atefooterz, I've learned long ago to take advice and coaching from anyone who has been there and done it before. I have found time and again that there is at least one thing new I can take away from the session. Jumping into moths/Waszp I expect that it would be more than that.

 

I'm hoping to get a taste of foiling in Duck, NC next month at Weta US Nationals in a Whisper. I anticipate awesomeness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WASZP Bites - August 2015

 

Hello,

 

Thanks for subscribing to the first of what we hope will be many brilliant WASZP class newsletters!

 

As you may know if youve read about the WASZP (and you will know if you are one of the many people whove ordered one), the WASZP is the worlds first one -design foiling single-hander.

 

Destined to be a major International class in the very near future, its for sailors just like you and me - particularly those who want to sail a cutting edge boat without the associated effort and costs linked with development classes.

 

This, together with to a lower buying price, means that WASZPs will stay fun for ever and that means of course that so will you!

 

So the purpose of this newsletter is to keep you up-to-date during the count down until manufacturing begins and we will start by just mentioning the official launch of the WASZP in June, where fittingly Andrew (Amac) McDougall revealed the boat at Foiling Week on Lake Garda.

Photos courtesy of Dr. Lojz

 

 

 

 

When youve designed the Mach2, the most successful International Moth design ever, you are probably the only guy capable of developing an affordable one-design peoples foiler, and this became apparent when Andrew started his presentation.

 

Within hours the WASZP website went live and soon third party websites were broadcasting news about the boat.

 

If you havent already seen the new website or want to show a friend click here And then come join the thousands of Facebook page fans here

The WASZP Class Association

 

Shortly the WASZP class international association will be launched and it will be the central point for WASZP owners to communicate.

 

We want the class to be run by the sailors, and also to be the governing body of the class.

It will feature:-

Events

Results

Rules

The WASZP Nest sign up for training days!

Access to technical articles, hints and tips and an ask the expert feature.

WASZP forum

Gallery

Sailor and fleet register

Association shop

Classified ads

Boat register/history

Documents and forms

 

Prototype WASZPs are now taking off at under 7 knots of boat speed, which is very similar to the seven times World Championship winning Mach2 Moth.

 

Top speeds in excess of 20 knots are being seen regularly which is a little bit faster than we wanted the boat to go, but still.

Build Slot Reservations

 

Currently 94 build slots have been reserved by sailors from 17 countries.

 

International from the start, the first WASZPs will be going to Australia, Bermuda, Canada, France, Germany, Great Britain, Japan, Italy, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Singapore, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Arab Emirates and the USA.

 

So far we are booked for the first 13 weeks of production with the production rate increasing over the first four months to 12 WASZPs per week.

 

Reserving a build slot couldnt be easier and is risk free (if you change your mind we will refund you the $330 AUD). If you want to know more click here.

What's Your Poison?

 

Or specifically what is your favorite WASZP color? Please help us decide on what colors to offer by completing this online survey (takes 2 minutes) and we will let you know the result in the next newsletter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just read this entire thread and read the WASZP website. In a couple years my wife will allow me to buy a new boat (just bought an Aero, so have to wait awhile). Had been thinking of an RS 100, or maybe even an RS 700. But after reading up on the WASZP, and especially the low presumed sale price (~$12,000!!!), I'll have to see where this boat is in 2 years. If still alive and doing well, I don't think I could resist. Looking forward to seeing how things develop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

received same email as above, I was just thinking WASZP needs to get a bit more active in the marketing department.

 

marketing looks a little home built to me - let the boat builders/designers do what they do best

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think they are working hard on getting the boat right, foil tips and so forth. The details of the last 5% of most projects can sometimes take as much time as the first 95% of the project.

 

I am eagerly looking forward to see how the boat and the class develops though.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

received same email as above, I was just thinking WASZP needs to get a bit more active in the marketing department.

 

marketing looks a little home built to me - let the boat builders/designers do what they do best

Why would they spend good money on marketing when they already have as much interest and demand as they could want for this stage of the project. They already have over 100 build slots filled while I am sure there are many times that waiting until we see the final product. It would be rather silly to spend money on marketing that isn't needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like they are selling a few

 

Saw this on FB today:

www.waszp.com/blog/the-waszp-100

 

Just watch out that these are not actual sales; people just committed 300$, which are fully refundable. I know a couple of Italian guys who booked it but may not commit to the final purchase for example.

In any case, I love the idea and from what I've seen and heard it really looks like a good boat.

Michele

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally some new video and photos.

Mothies may be able to comment on how it looks sailing ?

 

www.facebook.com/thewaszp

 

Good! if what they say is true performance is quite interesting as well; I don't want to judge before trying, but it may seem that compared to current moths they've gone the way of higher lift foils and flattish rig (without stays they have probably a narrower rig range); so they're close to a moth upwind, being able to flatten the sail/straighten the leach, but they're significanlty slower down, with more foil drag and less rig power.

If that's the case, it looks like a good strategy :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I’m one of the 100-odd who’ve paid the refundable deposit and I absolutely intend to go ahead and buy one.

For those who were speculating up-thread about who the market is for this boat I can provide a solitary data point, and at 51 I am way past being part of the youth market. I’ve been following the development of foiling boats for years but never seriously considered trying it myself. And then the waszp came along.

I see it as an opportunity to give the foiling thing a go while my knees still work and my teeth are all my own. I know it may prove to be a folly, as my fitness and skill levels may stop me even sailing the thing for fun, let alone racing it. But I love the concept and the fact that they’ve reduced several of the main barriers to entry - especially the complexity, fragility and cost of a “real” moth. And I’ll never have the time or the technical chops to pimp the boat, so one-design works for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SeanPurdy - that pretty much sums up my interest/age as well. If I weren't so dead set on working up to skippering an RS700 (a long-time dream), I'd have already plunked down my Waspz deposit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The performance figures posted on the WAZSP site indicate it will not be able to race with the moth fleet with any hope of being competitive with even the back half of any reasonable fleet. The performance seems to be a touch below even the Bladerider / Prowler era. But I am sure AMAC knew that before he started the project and I am sure that that will not and never was going to be his target market.

 

The three posts above give a better indication of who will be interested, people with a foiling dream who have an aversion to the moth class. I suspect that at least initially most of these may well be in the more senior age group than the teanagers the project was initially planned for. Getting these seniors into groups to have some class racing will be the first challenge. I think that the teanager sales will come only after the class has been established as a viable one design. Parents will be more averse to buying a joy ride novelty boat. The seniors may initially come and race with the moths but will be so far behind the will unlikley do it for long.

 

The crew in the videos is either AMAC or Kohei who are both under 80kg. Its behaving well in light/choppy conditions but seems to need a bit of encouragement to get out of the water, but there is not much wind. It does not look fast even in these conditions, and is only beam reaching if you look at the gybe angles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^^ 3rd to DTA and SeanPurdy

4th

 

If there were regattas within 5-6 hour drive i would go without regard to my/the boats competitive ability.

As long as i wasnt a hazard to the rest of the fleet I would go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

 

...^^....if you're anything like the character in your avatar....YES,, you are a hazard! :mellow:

 

 

...I'm glad someone finally figured out how to recycle all those wishbone booms that kick around every sailing club :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The performance figures posted on the WAZSP site indicate it will not be able to race with the moth fleet with any hope of being competitive with even the back half of any reasonable fleet. The performance seems to be a touch below even the Bladerider / Prowler era. But I am sure AMAC knew that before he started the project and I am sure that that will not and never was going to be his target market.

 

Probably unavoidable given the build constraints, but also intentional because IIRC they always wanted to limit the speed of the boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure I like being called a "senior".

 

My aversion to the moth is mostly cost, but also a healthy dose of convenience (dragging/carrying on its side to launch) and safety (stays injuries).

 

I'd be game, like Dex Sawash, to drive a bit to get to regattas. As it is now, the 4 regattas I can get on the calendar are 12, 5, 4 and 3 hours away so that's not much of a change. Heck, if his location is correct, we can practice/ train somewhere in NC. Moths are pretty scattered in the US so a drive is going to be necessary no matter what.

 

I'm probably going to give it at least a year to see how the boat and class develop. As much as I'd like to help get things off the ground, I've already done that once with another class and I just don't have the time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I booked an early build slot as well. I'm 39, fit and was contemplating a moth but don't have the time or inclination to fiddle with the boat as much as I sail it. It's also been 15 years since I sailed a dinghy or skiff of any kind and the waszp seems like a more forgiving platform to re-learn some of those skills on. It's a whole lot cheaper, and I sail one design now and love it so it seems like a perfect fit. There is a growing fleet of mothies near me so there'll be someone to learn from and race with (once I'm able to actually tack the thing or hit a layline). Im very positive on this boat, and I think once these things start appearing on rigging lawns they will take off. Everyone who sails has some fascination with the foiling moths it seems - this lowers the bar for a lot of people across a broad demographic to get into something very close to a moth without the expense and commitment. Sort of a street legal/production version of the hard core race machine. I'm not a youth sailor or a senior (yet ?!) but I can't wait for all the swimming I'll be doing, hopefully with fewer breakages of bones and carbon than I'd get from a Mach 2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like there is a new update posted. Details include: wing tips development, sail 8.0m2 but going with bolt rope, trolley design change and projected production date March 2016. No real surprises, IMHO and it's good to see a target date put out there to statr production-20 boats a week!.

 

I'm getting excited about the boat, looking forward to seeing one in person.

 

http://www.waszp.com/blog/waszp-update

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah great update the bigger sail is good news, it looked slightly undercooked to me in the videos. Pity we won't be getting any waszping done over summer/Christmas but I'm happy to wait while they get it absolutely right. It's encouraging to see that care and attention going into it. Might need to borrow a moth in the meantime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah great update the bigger sail is good news, it looked slightly undercooked to me in the videos. Pity we won't be getting any waszping done over summer/Christmas but I'm happy to wait while they get it absolutely right. It's encouraging to see that care and attention going into it. Might need to borrow a moth in the meantime.

Buy a second hand moth for the summer,cheaper faster and you get your nerd on at a whole new level. Plus it will give you a better understanding of how everything works in regards to tuning the boats so will probably give you a better starting point if you really are keen for the Waszp.

 

Plenty of cheap second hand foiling moths around if you look hard enough. You could even make it over to Perth for the nationals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree it’s reassuring to see the amount of real-world testing they’re doing, and also their willingness to listen to the sailors even if they don’t like what they’re hearing. It’s never easy to accept that you need to totally re-work something that you thought you had banked.

 

For me the delay is not a problem as it will give the sea a chance to warm up in the UK, which will definitely be welcome given all the swimming I'll be doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The change to bolt rope main is significant. It will make the boat much more attractive to the target market as if they get into trouble, they can just drop the main and be towed home. Rescuing Moths with sleeve mains isn't so simple. However, it will also sap performance a bit.

 

I guess 2 months to get it right is enough, if that's all they're working on, but it will take some effort.

 

A non–adjustable wand seems like a bad idea, it's an essential control for waves, especially for the target market. If they've found a single setting for all conditions, then it will be far from optimal in some. A bolt rope sail should be a lot cheaper to produce than a sleeve luff, so an adjustable wand shouldn't break the budget and get back some of the performance loss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with yahoo. I'm a bit of a nerd about ride height systems setting,but I truly believe you need at least 2 of the 4 classic moth settings( wand,ride height,gearing,fast point) to fly well in all conditions and that 1 of them has to be the wand

 

Sad to hear no cambers,it will limit a bit the high lift mode of the sail. But practicality is a target,so I get the reasoning :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The open communication of these issues is commendable. It is a credit to amac that he hasn't lost sight of the original purpose and goals in the rush to get something to market. I hope it results in a quality product that fulfills its brief.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got to laugh at you current moth sailors. Where would you be without your adjustable wand, ride height, gearing etc? I know. You would be where we all were a few years ago. You might find it hard to believe, but people did sail without them and still managed to get round the course. Naturally, all these great controls make your Moths faster and easier to sail, but it doesn't surprise me at all that Amac is able to design foils that are far more forgiving than the current Moth foils, which do not need to be adjusted but which are slower. And with all due respects to your Moth sailing experience, I believe that if Amac says he has managed to find one setting that works then that is likely to be correct. I think that once you get away from designing foils and gear simply for speed around the course and concentrate instead on ease of sailing, you end up with a very different solution. Think about it - the settings you use when "safety" is your priority would still get the boat foiling in lesser conditions, it just wouldn't be as fast.

 

I think Amac has got it right in this regard. I would be doing everything I could to take systems out of the boat. It cuts down on the learning curve, it makes it impossible to be sailing with the wrong settings and it is one less thing that needs to be maintained. Simple and bombproof is what is needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it pretty weird that they'd take money from people (albeit fully refundable) for a product that isn't anywhere near a final design. The WASZP is still in alpha as far as I can tell.

 

The wand needs to be adjustable in length and there needs to be a ride height controller, anything beyond that is too complex and anything less is un-sailable for the boat's target audience. It'd be very easy to work both of these into the boat without implementing something that can be screwed up by the end user or used mistakenly. The vast majority of those who buy a WASZP won't be first-time sailors so understanding how changes in settings correspond to real world changes won't be too much to take on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simon I don't agree, adj wand makes moths more enjoyable to sail. You can survive a lot better the steep waves downwind without jumping up and down upwind.I started as well without any controls on the Bladerider,and the wand + rha just made it better,not only faster.

 

Than,I agree, everyone is a bit too obsessed about 1000 controls (1 boat at the euros had 8 lines to the wings :D ) but wand just makes it better.

 

I'm sure Amac will get a good compromise,I just hope it's not too much of a compromise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simon I don't agree, adj wand makes moths more enjoyable to sail. You can survive a lot better the steep waves downwind without jumping up and down upwind.I started as well without any controls on the Bladerider,and the wand + rha just made it better,not only faster.

 

So here is the key question. What happens if you sail your Moth with the wand on the best settings for steep waves when there are no steep waves? I have sailed a Moth with all the toys and I believe that even if you have the settings for steep waves in flat water and less wind, you still foil. The situation is that you don't go as fast as you would do if you are on the right settings. Or am I wrong?

 

I believe that you are thinking like a Moth sailor, wanting the boat to always be set up for maximum speed unless conditions mean you have to alter things to stay in control. But in a one design, ultimate speed doesn't matter. Amac is claiming 25 knots and that is more than fast enough for what he sees his target market to be. I think for many who have mastered the current Moths, this boat will be a bit disappointing, but for many, having a boat that is simple and works with as few moving parts as possible is where it is at. They want accessible foiling with as little hassle as possible and they are prepared to sacrifice top speed for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it pretty weird that they'd take money from people (albeit fully refundable) for a product that isn't anywhere near a final design. The WASZP is still in alpha as far as I can tell.

 

I don't think it is weird at all. It's what many of the manufacturers do. If Amac didn't have a track record, your concerns might be valid, but he does and a lot of people would put their faith in his ability to deliver. When Amac says he will deliver, he does and as can be seen, he is also very open about the whole process while offering a fully refundable reservation fee. And I can also say that I would trust Amac on that as well. He is one of the good guys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Simon I don't agree, adj wand makes moths more enjoyable to sail. You can survive a lot better the steep waves downwind without jumping up and down upwind.I started as well without any controls on the Bladerider,and the wand + rha just made it better,not only faster.

 

So here is the key question. What happens if you sail your Moth with the wand on the best settings for steep waves when there are no steep waves? I have sailed a Moth with all the toys and I believe that even if you have the settings for steep waves in flat water and less wind, you still foil. The situation is that you don't go as fast as you would do if you are on the right settings. Or am I wrong?

I agree. No big difference in flattish water.

 

For me the biggest advantage of having wand or gearing settings is when going upwind in steep waves. If you can use a longer wand or less gearing than what you need for the downwind, the upwind ride is a lot easier and more enjoyable,because you're not bouncing all over the place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Simon I don't agree, adj wand makes moths more enjoyable to sail. You can survive a lot better the steep waves downwind without jumping up and down upwind.I started as well without any controls on the Bladerider,and the wand + rha just made it better,not only faster.

 

So here is the key question. What happens if you sail your Moth with the wand on the best settings for steep waves when there are no steep waves? I have sailed a Moth with all the toys and I believe that even if you have the settings for steep waves in flat water and less wind, you still foil. The situation is that you don't go as fast as you would do if you are on the right settings. Or am I wrong?

I agree. No big difference in flattish water.

 

For me the biggest advantage of having wand or gearing settings is when going upwind in steep waves. If you can use a longer wand or less gearing than what you need for the downwind, the upwind ride is a lot easier and more enjoyable,because you're not bouncing all over the place.

You will have more trouble getting out of the water in marginal conditions which was a stated aim. Maybe the high lift profile will overcome this. I wonder how much onshore adjustment is available as you'd think there would be some to make up for manufacturing tolorences etc.

Certainly cut down on the strings but I'd be surprised if they can do away with any form of rha or adjustable wand without tagging waves when trying to go uphill. The ride height looks low in the pictures with a short wand and possibly the fast point a way back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AMAC is working hard to make this boat as user friendly as possible.

 

It is intended that there is no need to turn the boat on its side to rig or launch, thats a big ask and moth sailors gave up long ago, but he is persevering because he sees it importnat to the wider market. He is redesigning the trolley so that the boat can be floated off with the foils in the cases, retracted up to the hull. He is also changing the rig so that the mast and sail can be raised by the average sailor in any wind, with the boat upright. Hence the big sail might end up with a bolt rope and a haliard.

 

It has never been intended to be a competitive Moth. So making it fast in a big wind, big wave regatta sites like Sorrento is not a prioity. Simon is right that safe settings for rough water will not prevent you foiling in better conditions, it will just go slower, it will fly lower and may make foiling tacks and gybes more difficult. That will not matter to either foiling beginners or to one design racing. I think there is an adjustment to the deck pushrod, known in various moth circles as Ride Height Adjuster or Winder. This will cope with most conditions. See the string going across the trampoline athwarts the centreboard case.

 

If some people do want to join a moth fleet they will be welcome but they will most likely be soon disappointed when they can not keep up with the tail enders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, get all that Phil, but given the choice of dial/ride height adjuster/winder/whatever (maybe RHA is ok) or an adjustable wand, I think most would pick the latter. An RHA messes with the wand/flap interface in bad ways that an adjustable wand doesn't. It's a simple control that makes the boat easier to sail.

 

For beginners, it's good to do all adjustments for downwind on the last tack into the top mark before getting foiliing again. If there's time, fine tune later but at least the rounding can be done without trying to adjust anything. Similar at the bottom, only do it after rounding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree Yahoo, the wand length is the first thing I pull at the windward mark. But AMAC is trying to build a boat to a price and I can see that the RHA is way cheaper to make than a sliding wand, (and provides the necessary fine tune adjustment to cope with production tolerances). He may well get 80% of the affect, and that might be enough for the WASZP market.

 

My M2 has 10 different things to adjust, in order of priority for me: Sheet, vang, cunningham, wand length, RHA, outhaul, wand stopper fine tune, May stick bungee tension, gearing, and cant centreing (last because it my newest toy). I get some of them right some of the time, but its nice to experiment on non race days without coming ashore. I think the Waszp market will want something simpler and at a smaller cost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree Yahoo, the wand length is the first thing I pull at the windward mark. But AMAC is trying to build a boat to a price and I can see that the RHA is way cheaper to make than a sliding wand, (and provides the necessary fine tune adjustment to cope with production tolerances). He may well get 80% of the affect, and that might be enough for the WASZP market.

 

My M2 has 10 different things to adjust, in order of priority for me: Sheet, vang, cunningham, wand length, RHA, outhaul, wand stopper fine tune, May stick bungee tension, gearing, and cant centreing (last because it my newest toy). I get some of them right some of the time, but its nice to experiment on non race days without coming ashore. I think the Waszp market will want something simpler and at a smaller cost.

Agree re simplicity and cost - it's a one design so cost and standardisation trump outright performance every time. 80% of the performance but in a OD fleet would give me effectively the best possible of both worlds.

I agree Yahoo, the wand length is the first thing I pull at the windward mark. But AMAC is trying to build a boat to a price and I can see that the RHA is way cheaper to make than a sliding wand, (and provides the necessary fine tune adjustment to cope with production tolerances). He may well get 80% of the affect, and that might be enough for the WASZP market.

 

My M2 has 10 different things to adjust, in order of priority for me: Sheet, vang, cunningham, wand length, RHA, outhaul, wand stopper fine tune, May stick bungee tension, gearing, and cant centreing (last because it my newest toy). I get some of them right some of the time, but its nice to experiment on non race days without coming ashore. I think the Waszp market will want something simpler and at a smaller cost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact you need enough space on land to tip the boat over to get it on the trolley and a benign enough sea to tip it over again to launch are far more of a turn-off to me than lack of tunability of foiling system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact you need enough space on land to tip the boat over to get it on the trolley and a benign enough sea to tip it over again to launch are far more of a turn-off to me than lack of tunability of foiling system.

I thought it read you don't need to tip it on land you tip it in shallow water to take off the trolley if its rough otherwise you just slide it off. If you have no room to roll over your boat on land occasionally your club is unusual.

Personally I think one of the good attributes of the moth is you can rig it completely on its side onshore and just carry it in, no need to worry about trolley's, fixed rudders or retaining pins. I admit it's only a few steps to deep water but I can't be the only one

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wtf? Your club is unusual?

Where do you come from dude? Have you been to all sailing venues in the world? Not very body sails from a club.

I slip from a small car park.

There is a surfing spot near hear where you habe6to jump a 3m cliff to get into the water.

Don't assume everybody is using the same infrastructure as you do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The fact you need enough space on land to tip the boat over to get it on the trolley and a benign enough sea to tip it over again to launch are far more of a turn-off to me than lack of tunability of foiling system.

I thought it read you don't need to tip it on land you tip it in shallow water to take off the trolley if its rough otherwise you just slide it off. If you have no room to roll over your boat on land occasionally your club is unusual.

Personally I think one of the good attributes of the moth is you can rig it completely on its side onshore and just carry it in, no need to worry about trolley's, fixed rudders or retaining pins. I admit it's only a few steps to deep water but I can't be the only one

You're right - you wouldn't need to tip it on land as you would be getting it on and off the trolley in the water. But having to capsize to launch/recover in waves does not sound fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wtf? Your club is unusual?

Where do you come from dude? Have you been to all sailing venues in the world? Not very body sails from a club.

I slip from a small car park.

There is a surfing spot near hear where you habe6to jump a 3m cliff to get into the water.

Don't assume everybody is using the same infrastructure as you do.

You don't need much room to quickly roll a boat over unless you leave it there all day, a small carpark sounds like heaps of room.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You actually don't have to carry a moth on its side if you don't want to. We never did starting out. You get a second person to help lift into the water. Walk out. Tip over then put the foils in just before it gets too deep.

 

The side carry method just makes you self sufficient which is a plus when sailing a single hander.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a surfing spot near hear where you habe6to jump a 3m cliff to get into the water.

 

I just had to ask. How do you launch a dinghy on a dolly in that situation? Seems to me like you are just making up excuses. I believe that if you are able to rig and launch a conventional dinghy at a location, a Moth can be launched as well.

 

And one other small matter....isn't that a large dinghy on its side in your avatar? ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

There is a surfing spot near hear where you habe6to jump a 3m cliff to get into the water.

 

I just had to ask. How do you launch a dinghy on a dolly in that situation? Seems to me like you are just making up excuses. I believe that if you are able to rig and launch a conventional dinghy at a location, a Moth can be launched as well.

 

And one other small matter....isn't that a large dinghy on its side in your avatar? ;)

Yes it is just an excuse. Just showing that people sail differently from what you know and from different places as you consider a "usual club". That kind of usual club for example does not exist in the county where i live.

I'd have enough space to tip a moth where i usually sail from. But that does not mean that everybody has.

Not having to tip the boat should help. Even if space is not necessarily the limitation. It could be.

Some people might favour carrying the boat into the water because they don't have a slip or sandy beach. Some carry their boat from to the water from a pontoon, other carry it overa rocky beach.

All just examples and what fits for you does not fit totality of sailors.

I just don't like these generalisations from big club wise asses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most clubs in the UK have enough land space to tip over one or two boats, but not enough to tip over an entire fleet. Ten boats each taking up an area about 4m*5m, either in the boat park or on the shore line would not be possible in many places and would not be popular with other sailors even if there was (just) space.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You actually don't have to carry a moth on its side if you don't want to. We never did starting out. You get a second person to help lift into the water. Walk out. Tip over then put the foils in just before it gets too deep.

 

The side carry method just makes you self sufficient which is a plus when sailing a single hander.

Even without the 2nd person, you can just wheel the boat into the water with its dolly, then capsize & insert the foils. In most conditions, you can leave the boat long enough to get the dolly back up to dry land.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most clubs in the UK have enough land space to tip over one or two boats, but not enough to tip over an entire fleet.

Most clubs in the UK aren't suitable for Moths or their derivatives. If you consider where Moths are sailed, I don't see an issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well isn't that part of what the wasp is trying to offer? Foiling but without the hassle of a moth? Without (some of) the restrictions of a moth?

A wider audience?

Isn't that part of the idea?

So limiting it to places where moth already sail from would be kinda stupid wouldn't it?

Broaden your minds folks, damit!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So limiting it to places where moth already sail from would be kinda stupid wouldn't it?

 

 

How much do you know about British dinghy sailing? Much if not most is on small inland waters. I mean small. NSFM (not suitable for Moths).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we'll i have sailed on a couple of these lakes. so many of them aren't suitable for moth. Yes I understand that.

Where's your point?

are we discussing moth here or wasps? I know they are similar but it is not the same thing. One might appeal to some and the other to others.

I can see the wasp on some of the inland lakes and reservoirs. others clearly not.

why do we keep comparing the wasp to the moth. It is not a moth. If you want a moth, sail the moth.

we could see the wasp as a more sensible and practical update to the foiling laser than a downgrade of the moth.

You could sail a foiling laser on your lakes, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the moth is the ultimate foiling racing machine, can do foiling tacks, gybes, and well just everything.

the foiling laser can foil on a reach. slow.

the wasp is somewhere in-between.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is not a moth.

AFAIK it measures as a Moth. Therefore is a Moth.

 

I was responding to sosoomii on a specific point but you seem to want some all-purpose punch-up with whoever you can get a rise out of. Whatever, I'm out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a point here though. If the Waszp is to be a Moth-like thing but with broader appeal, it would be good if it worked in a broader range of locations.

 

I do take the point that it could gain traction with Laser etc sailors in clubs that already have Moths, but it would be better still if it was sailable at clubs where Moths aren't practical. Maybe that's just not possible though.

 

In as much as it's the same size as a Moth, lacks initial stability like a Moth, needs to be tipped over in the water like Moth, but is a bit heavier than a Moth, will it actually be any easier to launch/land than a Moth? Will the more forgiving foils but less tunable set-up make foiling easier? I can see that the stayless rig, bolt rope sail, robust construction and OD design in exchange for some speed have appeal, but if practical aspects like launching, sailing and landing are no easier then is the market big enough?

 

I know this sounds like tyre kicking. It's not. I'm just curious as to whether the reality will be as manageable as I'd need it to be. Is the market really youth like AMAC claims, or 40+ year olds with disposable income and kids who've fled the nest?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites