couchsurfer

....got stung by the 'WASZP'?..OD foiler...

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As Phil said above, carrying a moth on its side works because the hull and rig weights balance out between the hull and the boom. You stand in the middle, put the boom on your shoulder, grab a footstrap and walk off - unless you get a weird gust or catch something with the mast you can walk a long way comfortably.

 

But, It only takes a bucket of sand on the head of the sail or water in the hull to put it out of balance - and then you are stuck with getting the foils out and putting it on the trolley. And you better make sure you keep it head to wind on the trolley as it will roll over in any more than light wind.

 

I'm sure AMAC will figure it out, but by the sounds of it, proven lessons and methods from other dinghies and skiffs are going to be more help than 'traditional' foiling moth launching techniques.

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Sounds like the trolley is still there with boards up but for some reason you have to capsize the boat to put it on or off the trolley.

 

Im not sure why a typical trolley wasnt working, maybe it capsized on the trolley too easily. Seems like you could make the trolley wider and have runners support the boat under the wings rather than the hull and then you'd have a wide enough platform to support the boat with a little sidewind.

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bolt rope sounds a little slow! anyone with more knowledge than me care to say what the performance difference vs sleeve will be?

i suppose they could make up for that with a bigger sail?

 

i seem to remember there being a big reason for launching off a trolley. peoples foiler and all that jazz sumtin-sumtin.

 

personally I really can't understand why it wouldn't be a launch on it's side job. i second the point from Ncik above about how much easier it is once you get used to it. regular trolley launching seems painful to me now by comparison. i also CANNOT imagine trying to keep a moth type hull upright and putting foils down whilst edging away from the beach in an onshore breeze and chop. #nightmare

 

Their take on it...

 

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I think the bolt rope main will be a great advantage over a pocket luff for pre and post–launch handling. Moths really don't like sitting upright in the trolley with the sail up. I imagine the Waszp will be sailed close to the beach, main foil raised a bit, then the sail dropped and the foils pulled all the way up. There will still be a bit of a swim, but not much.

Getting it onto the trolley will be much easier if the wheels don't float.

 

Even if the boat needs to be capsized to raise or lower the sails and foils, it's not a big issue. You're going to get fully soaked in any sort of breeze anyway.

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ah, forgot about the missing boom...well then, the launch will evolve to be like the skiffs, upright with a person under each wing bar. Any trolley will be a pain in the bum.

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ah, forgot about the missing boom...well then, the launch will evolve to be like the skiffs, upright with a person under each wing bar. Any trolley will be a pain in the bum.

A person under each wing isn't the ideal solution for a single hander You have to be able to launch a single handed boat easily on your own.

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I imagine the Waszp will be sailed close to the beach, main foil raised a bit, then the sail dropped

 

 

Hmmmm. Dropped sail all over the place in the water. Sounds like a complete buggers muddle to me.

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Why are people so dismayed about launching a damn boat? It's really not that hard, and making a moth launch like any other dinghy wouldn't be difficult.

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I imagine the Waszp will be sailed close to the beach, main foil raised a bit, then the sail dropped

 

 

Hmmmm. Dropped sail all over the place in the water. Sounds like a complete buggers muddle to me.

 

 

wishbone boom should all a mainsail capture mechanism, if only some dyneema lines side/side in a basket.

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I imagine the Waszp will be sailed close to the beach, main foil raised a bit, then the sail dropped

 

 

Hmmmm. Dropped sail all over the place in the water. Sounds like a complete buggers muddle to me.

 

 

wishbone boom should all a mainsail capture mechanism, if only some dyneema lines side/side in a basket.

 

Would this then make it a foiler with a lazy jack system? Would have to be a world first for an 11ft boat. Innovative.

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Why are people so dismayed about launching a damn boat? It's really not that hard, and making a moth launch like any other dinghy wouldn't be difficult.

 

Good for you, you are clearly a superior sailor. Or maybe you don't sail where we sail.

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Stop speculating, AMAC is a very clever designer and he will have a viable solution to rigging and launching before he sells a single WASZP. He has invested a lot of time and money in this project, he has proven his ability with the Bladerider and then the Mach2, and he has too much at stake to let this project fail.

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Why are people so dismayed about launching a damn boat? It's really not that hard, and making a moth launch like any other dinghy wouldn't be difficult.

Good for you, you are clearly a superior sailor. Or maybe you don't sail where we sail.

 

You already do it now, so why is it such a big problem? I'm not really talking about launching or sailing ability, I'm talking about design.

 

 

I imagine the Waszp will be sailed close to the beach, main foil raised a bit, then the sail dropped

 

Hmmmm. Dropped sail all over the place in the water. Sounds like a complete buggers muddle to me.

 

Also a 'problem' with every dinghy with a bolt rope sail that can be dropped. Not really relevant to the conversation, not to mention the wingspan of a moth makes it pretty hard to have the sail fall off the sides.

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Stop speculating, AMAC is a very clever designer and he will have a viable solution to rigging and launching before he sells a single WASZP. He has invested a lot of time and money in this project, he has proven his ability with the Bladerider and then the Mach2, and he has too much at stake to let this project fail.

It can't all be fan-mail.

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Biggest issue right now is missing the opportunity to sail this thing over summer. I will have a couple of weeks clear over Christmas to get in the water and learn to foil, apart from that it will be every other weekend. A second hand mach 2 is looking better all the time. Maybe I'm thinking too short term but these delays are going to hurt sales I think.

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Maybe I'm thinking too short term but these delays are going to hurt sales I think.

 

 

 

. ....yes you are. :mellow::)

 

A less less damage than releasing an unsorted product.

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I imagine the Waszp will be sailed close to the beach, main foil raised a bit, then the sail dropped

 

Hmmmm. Dropped sail all over the place in the water. Sounds like a complete buggers muddle to me.

 

Also a 'problem' with every dinghy with a bolt rope sail that can be dropped. Not really relevant to the conversation, not to mention the wingspan of a moth makes it pretty hard to have the sail fall off the sides.

 

 

Perhaps this is my fault for taking a partial quote from the post to which I was responding. What was being suggested was dropping the sail then swimming the boat ashore. Not standard operating procedure for a single hander anywhere I've sailed. Certainly would not work well at my club.

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Launching and retrieving a high performance boat can very difficult depending on tye of beach / slip / harbour / wind direction / force and wave hight.

Even a doublehander like the. 49er is very tricky in an non sheltered launch. A single hander is per definition more difficult. Depending on where you are it might be impossible to launch a musto performance skiff alone - without leaving the trolly in the water where it might be swept away.

In the 49er i remember the launch and landing being the most difficult maneuvers at all.

I do see why people are worried about this issue. Especially a singlehander.

With foils sticking out the bottom.

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dogwatch, you are sounding like an whining old man flapping your gums about the good old days or 'golden era'

 

yeah kids used to know what 'cowboys and indians' were, or music on cassette, no more

 

mate, times they are a'changin' , accept that and you'll be happier and moooaaann less.

 

if someone wants to sail one, or foil an A Class possibly, they'll find a way how, and if thats not at your club, rejoice, no new millenium craft to spoil your 1960s view

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Most single hander sailors like to have someone around to deal with the trolley, be it another sailor or helpful bystander. Current foilers are probably one of a very few that can be launched nearly anywhere single handedly and outside assistance is often more hindrance than help. I expect no one thought that would be the case when they were first introduced.

 

Once a good system is worked out for the WAZP it will be easy and yes, it may involve getting wet above the waist (i.e. "a bit if a swim"). This boat has a defined market, it's not for everyone in every venue in any weather. But it will suit a much wider demographic than current foiling Moths and will be about as versatile as, say, a Laser for launch and retrieve.

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Biggest issue right now is missing the opportunity to sail this thing over summer. I will have a couple of weeks clear over Christmas to get in the water and learn to foil, apart from that it will be every other weekend. A second hand mach 2 is looking better all the time. Maybe I'm thinking too short term but these delays are going to hurt sales I think.

Not too late for our summer in the. US, or Europe for that matter. The delay will mean that you Aussies won't have a chance to work the bugs out before we can get our hands on a boat though.

 

And yes, terribly short term thinking. The costs of releasing a product that isn't sorted out vs. a delay of a couple of months are much worse. Much better to wait a little while instead of getting frustrated

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Well, I was assuming that the wishbone would go the way of the dodo now that launching by trolley is going that way. The whole point, or at least a big point, of the wishbone was to allow launching with a sail up flapping over a metal centre plate sticking 4 ft up in the air.

Surely you'd go for a normal boom and kicker otherwise? Maybe not. Someone did say something about it being less stress on the hull or something. Really though, if it was good a moth would already have it, or at least have tried it.

 

Definitely not worth launching a bad boat, definitely a bigger market in the northern hemisphere than in aus but also a good point on testing it for us!

 

Still, I'm picking up chatter from a lot of people who are interested in a waszp but would not be keen on a moth due to the whole development thing. It's definitely got potential

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post-8573-0-26284700-1448922236_thumb.jpg

Yes its been tried, 15 years ago, Greg K from Sth Aust at Perth WC. Fast upwind. Stays prevented the rig going out far enough for low riding well downwind. Irrelevant now? Note also wings suspended above the hull. Everything old is new again.

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Well, I was assuming that the wishbone would go the way of the dodo now that launching by trolley is going that way. The whole point, or at least a big point, of the wishbone was to allow launching with a sail up flapping over a metal centre plate sticking 4 ft up in the air.

Surely you'd go for a normal boom and kicker otherwise? Maybe not. Someone did say something about it being less stress on the hull or something. Really though, if it was good a moth would already have it, or at least have tried it.

 

I think you are still missing the point. The "problem" with launching a modern Moth is that you have to swim it out far enough that the water is deep enough so that you can pull it upright with the foils fully down. With the Waszp, even if you have to tip it to get the trolley off, you can still right it in knee deep water and sail it off the beach with foils up. Get rid of the wishbone boom and you can no longer do that.

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attachicon.gifGreg K.jpg

Yes its been tried, 15 years ago, Greg K from Sth Aust at Perth WC. Fast upwind. Stays prevented the rig going out far enough for low riding well downwind. Irrelevant now? Note also wings suspended above the hull. Everything old is new again.

 

Go Greg!

 

Certainly thankful for him allowing me to try his pre-foiling moth with an aluminium mast. A great experience!

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While it is the WAZSP plan to be able to rig, launch and go sailing without capsizing the boat, there are some obstacles which have to be overcome.

. Raising the rig has been identified by AMAC as one,

. Floating the boat off the trolley without catching or damaging the raised foils is another,

. A boat as narrow as a waszp in the water will not stay upright for very long if you let go to move the trolley back to the shore,

. Before you get on a boat as wide as a moth/waszp, it will be difficult to reach inboard and lower the centreboard enough to start sailing, its also likely to blow over if you walk aft to lower the rudder enough.

. It will sail really badly with the CB and rudder only partly lowered. The drag from the horizontal foils which will not be at ideal angles of attack really hinder progress. If they are slightly +ve they will try to lift them selves up until no verical is left below the hull, if they are -ve they will try to pull themselves down until they hit the shallow bottom.

. Assuming you make it to deep water, coming to the centreline to fully lower the foil, lock it in place and connect the pushrod, takes some delicate ballancing, the boat will probably fall over anyway. Same deal goes for the rudder although the WASZP has been designed with increased volume aft to prevent over the stern capsizes

. If you get the lock in process wrong or if the required safety stopper goes missing the whole foil can fall out of the trunk and sink to the bottom.

 

I have experienced or witnessed all of these issues with moths. I know AMAC is cleaver but I think in practice that at least some WASZP owners will experience some of these problems and revert to moth style rigging and launching. But then the wishbone is in the wrong place to lift the capsized boat.

 

It will be imposible to satisfy everybody, you certainly will not be sliding a waszp in off a dock, some people will damage stuff getting it wrong. This is not a toy boat for mug sailors, its a simplified foiling boat with one design racing aspirations, potentially a junior class for moth aspirants.

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Each and every one of the of the changes from a Moth to a Waszp all have follow on effects ....

 

Stays are dangerous in a crash ... remove them ... mast becomes heavier ... can't be lifted ... remove pocket and use a bolt rope ... need to add a mast track ... mast becomes even heavier and stiffer ... boat becomes harder to sail ... still have to put on the wishbone.

 

(simple solution, leave stays on, with generous padding mandatory)

 

Want to have the foils on in the cradle and a trolley launch ... need to remove the boom .... use a wishbone instead ... may still destroy the sail though ... can't lift the boat on it's side anymore ...

 

Need to tip the boat over to put the wishbone ... need to take the foils out of the boat to tip it over .... bugger ... ok so I can't have them in the boat on the trolly anyway way ...

 

Honestly, I think that, despite the brochure, in reality, people won't will be leaving foils in the boat onshore, lifting in the water, sailing out, and pushing the foils down then putting the pin in, all whilst balancing on a boat with no static stability.

 

( simple solution ... trolly launch ... float the boat out pre-foiler style, with the foils tied in the boat, tip the boat over in shallow water, then put the foils in right and go ... build a dead simple push from the bottom until it clicks in place system. )

 

I understand excatly why Amac is making these changes, however, each change is introducing other problems that aren't really problems.

 

The Bladerider FX may have been the right way to go after all ... think one design Mach 2 with foldable carbon tube wings and non tapered (carbon pultruded) foils.

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Each and every one of the of the changes from a Moth to a Waszp all have follow on effects ....

 

Stays are dangerous in a crash ... remove them ... mast becomes heavier ... can't be lifted ... remove pocket and use a bolt rope ... need to add a mast track ... mast becomes even heavier and stiffer ... boat becomes harder to sail ... still have to put on the wishbone.

 

(simple solution, leave stays on, with generous padding mandatory)

 

Want to have the foils on in the cradle and a trolley launch ... need to remove the boom .... use a wishbone instead ... may still destroy the sail though ... can't lift the boat on it's side anymore ...

 

Need to tip the boat over to put the wishbone ... need to take the foils out of the boat to tip it over .... bugger ... ok so I can't have them in the boat on the trolly anyway way ...

 

Honestly, I think that, despite the brochure, in reality, people won't will be leaving foils in the boat onshore, lifting in the water, sailing out, and pushing the foils down then putting the pin in, all whilst balancing on a boat with no static stability.

 

( simple solution ... trolly launch ... float the boat out pre-foiler style, with the foils tied in the boat, tip the boat over in shallow water, then put the foils in right and go ... build a dead simple push from the bottom until it clicks in place system. )

 

I understand excatly why Amac is making these changes, however, each change is introducing other problems that aren't really problems.

 

The Bladerider FX may have been the right way to go after all ... think one design Mach 2 with foldable carbon tube wings and non tapered (carbon pultruded) foils.

 

 

It makes a lot more sense for the boat to just a cheap Mach2, basically the same idea as the FX. The price barrier probably takes up 70% of the reason people don't sail moths, and the rest can be addressed without coming up with a totally gimped 'moth' like the Waszp.

 

The FX was US$12,750 in today's money. Surely better design and process can produce a modern version of that for a similar price???

 

It makes a lot of sense to come out with a brand new product for noobs when evaluating the Waszp from a marketing standpoint, but it looks like this thing has gone from molehill to mountain pretty quickly.

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See embedded Italics

While it is the WAZSP plan to be able to rig, launch and go sailing without capsizing the boat, there are some obstacles which have to be overcome.

. Raising the rig has been identified by AMAC as one,

 

Raising the rig with a sleeve sail was an issue-moved to a bolt rope sail. No one has seen this rig yet

 

. Floating the boat off the trolley without catching or damaging the raised foils is another,

 

There seem to be a number of ways to deal with this, including capsizing the boat once in the water to clear the trolley out. This will depend a LOT on whaere one launches the boat-beach/ramp/floating dock, etc.

 

. A boat as narrow as a waszp in the water will not stay upright for very long if you let go to move the trolley back to the shore,

 

Jack be nimble, jack be quick! Boats that don't flip have a tendency to float away if you're not quick with the trolley stashing.

 

. Before you get on a boat as wide as a moth/waszp, it will be difficult to reach inboard and lower the centreboard enough to start sailing, its also likely to blow over if you walk aft to lower the rudder enough.

 

Again, this depends on what type of launch you have in your area. And how long your arms are.

 

. It will sail really badly with the CB and rudder only partly lowered. The drag from the horizontal foils which will not be at ideal angles of attack really hinder progress. If they are slightly +ve they will try to lift them selves up until no verical is left below the hull, if they are -ve they will try to pull themselves down until they hit the shallow bottom.

 

As opposed to every other boat with the blades up? I think one could manage with the sail partially trimmed, sailing dead slow to get the blades sorted.

 

. Assuming you make it to deep water, coming to the centreline to fully lower the foil, lock it in place and connect the pushrod, takes some delicate ballancing, the boat will probably fall over anyway. Same deal goes for the rudder although the WASZP has been designed with increased volume aft to prevent over the stern capsizes

. If you get the lock in process wrong or if the required safety stopper goes missing the whole foil can fall out of the trunk and sink to the bottom.

 

Has anyone seen the boat close enough to know if this is really a problem?

 

I have experienced or witnessed all of these issues with moths. I know AMAC is cleaver but I think in practice that at least some WASZP owners will experience some of these problems and revert to moth style rigging and launching. But then the wishbone is in the wrong place to lift the capsized boat.

 

It will be imposible to satisfy everybody, you certainly will not be sliding a waszp in off a dock, some people will damage stuff getting it wrong. This is not a toy boat for mug sailors, its a simplified foiling boat with one design racing aspirations, potentially a junior class for moth aspirants.

 

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Each and every one of the of the changes from a Moth to a Waszp all have follow on effects ....

 

Stays are dangerous in a crash ... remove them ... mast becomes heavier ... can't be lifted ... remove pocket and use a bolt rope ... need to add a mast track ... mast becomes even heavier and stiffer ... boat becomes harder to sail ... still have to put on the wishbone.

 

(simple solution, leave stays on, with generous padding mandatory)

 

Want to have the foils on in the cradle and a trolley launch ... need to remove the boom .... use a wishbone instead ... may still destroy the sail though ... can't lift the boat on it's side anymore ...

 

Need to tip the boat over to put the wishbone ... need to take the foils out of the boat to tip it over .... bugger ... ok so I can't have them in the boat on the trolly anyway way ...

 

Honestly, I think that, despite the brochure, in reality, people won't will be leaving foils in the boat onshore, lifting in the water, sailing out, and pushing the foils down then putting the pin in, all whilst balancing on a boat with no static stability.

 

( simple solution ... trolly launch ... float the boat out pre-foiler style, with the foils tied in the boat, tip the boat over in shallow water, then put the foils in right and go ... build a dead simple push from the bottom until it clicks in place system. )

 

I understand excatly why Amac is making these changes, however, each change is introducing other problems that aren't really problems.

 

The Bladerider FX may have been the right way to go after all ... think one design Mach 2 with foldable carbon tube wings and non tapered (carbon pultruded) foils.

 

 

It makes a lot more sense for the boat to just a cheap Mach2, basically the same idea as the FX. The price barrier probably takes up 70% of the reason people don't sail moths, and the rest can be addressed without coming up with a totally gimped 'moth' like the Waszp.

 

The FX was US$12,750 in today's money. Surely better design and process can produce a modern version of that for a similar price???

 

It makes a lot of sense to come out with a brand new product for noobs when evaluating the Waszp from a marketing standpoint, but it looks like this thing has gone from molehill to mountain pretty quickly.

 

Gimped moth? Really?

 

And the side schlepp method of launching and stays slicing you up when you stuff it of a "cheap" Mach 2 still have no appeal to me.

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Each and every one of the of the changes from a Moth to a Waszp all have follow on effects ....

 

Stays are dangerous in a crash ... remove them ... mast becomes heavier ... can't be lifted ... remove pocket and use a bolt rope ... need to add a mast track ... mast becomes even heavier and stiffer ... boat becomes harder to sail ... still have to put on the wishbone.

 

(simple solution, leave stays on, with generous padding mandatory)

 

Want to have the foils on in the cradle and a trolley launch ... need to remove the boom .... use a wishbone instead ... may still destroy the sail though ... can't lift the boat on it's side anymore ...

 

Need to tip the boat over to put the wishbone ... need to take the foils out of the boat to tip it over .... bugger ... ok so I can't have them in the boat on the trolly anyway way ...

 

Honestly, I think that, despite the brochure, in reality, people won't will be leaving foils in the boat onshore, lifting in the water, sailing out, and pushing the foils down then putting the pin in, all whilst balancing on a boat with no static stability.

 

( simple solution ... trolly launch ... float the boat out pre-foiler style, with the foils tied in the boat, tip the boat over in shallow water, then put the foils in right and go ... build a dead simple push from the bottom until it clicks in place system. )

 

I understand excatly why Amac is making these changes, however, each change is introducing other problems that aren't really problems.

 

The Bladerider FX may have been the right way to go after all ... think one design Mach 2 with foldable carbon tube wings and non tapered (carbon pultruded) foils.

 

It makes a lot more sense for the boat to just a cheap Mach2, basically the same idea as the FX. The price barrier probably takes up 70% of the reason people don't sail moths, and the rest can be addressed without coming up with a totally gimped 'moth' like the Waszp.

 

The FX was US$12,750 in today's money. Surely better design and process can produce a modern version of that for a similar price???

 

It makes a lot of sense to come out with a brand new product for noobs when evaluating the Waszp from a marketing standpoint, but it looks like this thing has gone from molehill to mountain pretty quickly.

Gimped moth? Really?

 

Is it not? A line up between a modern competitive moth and the waszp would quickly confirm that.

 

Back in the day, the gap between say, an X8 and FX would have seen a much smaller gap, a lot of which comes down to foils. They were the same, but the foils on the Waszp in conjunction with the rig will be very limiting.

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The people on this forum appear to be either dihard mothies or old fat guys who think the WASZP is going to be their easy way to go foiling. Both will be dissapointed with this boat. Its fortunate for AMAC that his target market has always been the young people with moth ambitions but limited funds.

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Well said, Phil. It also seems that the Moth brigade seem more fixated on performance than is needed for this cheap one design. I bet that the boat ends up faster than the Bladerider was when it was launched, and everybody was more than happy with its performance.We used to get excited by joining the 20 knot club!

 

If there is anybody with the smarts to sort this boat out so that it is a bit more user friendly than a Moth, it is Amac. And by user friendly, I don't really mean easier to sail, but easier to rig, easier to launch and less easy to hurt yourself!. Having said that, I am one of those who actually likes how you launch a Moth on the basis that if you are going to sail a monohull foiler, you are going to get wet anyway. For me, carrying the boat in is far easier than trying to play with a trolley while swimming it out and getting aboard is easier than the messing about getting foils down and locking them, which I hate on the A with the heavy helm due to half down pivoting rudders and hoping you don't rip off the winglets. But maybe I am just mad! :unsure:

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In my[young person] opinion most youth sailors will graduate from the Waszp pretty quickly. As soon as they can sail it competently they'll want to be keeping up with the older guys in Mach2's but will be limited by the hardware. I'm not sure how much competition there will be for youth sailors to race each other, the groups of younger guys who have parents that throw a bit of money at them (read: 29er/420 sailors) are very small.

 

The old fat guys will probably enjoy the Waszp long term.

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In my[young person] opinion most youth sailors will graduate from the Waszp pretty quickly. As soon as they can sail it competently they'll want to be keeping up with the older guys in Mach2's but will be limited by the hardware. I'm not sure how much competition there will be for youth sailors to race each other, the groups of younger guys who have parents that throw a bit of money at them (read: 29er/420 sailors) are very small.

 

The old fat guys will probably enjoy the Waszp long term.

I don't think you understand the idea of a one design. ;) The Waszp is not meant to compete against a Mach 2. It is designed to compete against other Waszps. I doubt many, if any, will turn up to race against Moths because that would be rather pointless.

 

I also think there are rather a lot of parents who throw Waszp sized budgets at their kids. Don't just think of what happens here in Oz with the 29er/420 scene. In the UK, there were 48 420's and 130 29ers at their respective nationals. That makes nearly 180 sets of parents willing to splash the money. Having said that, there were 44 29ers at the last Oz nationals and 36 420's. Also sailing parents understand that you are not splashing, say, $12,000. You get money back when you sell the boat so it is finance and depreciation costs. Once you understand that, sailing is actually cheaper compared with some sports than people realise.

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In my[young person] opinion most youth sailors will graduate from the Waszp pretty quickly. As soon as they can sail it competently they'll want to be keeping up with the older guys in Mach2's but will be limited by the hardware. I'm not sure how much competition there will be for youth sailors to race each other, the groups of younger guys who have parents that throw a bit of money at them (read: 29er/420 sailors) are very small.

 

The old fat guys will probably enjoy the Waszp long term.

I don't think you understand the idea of a one design. ;) The Waszp is not meant to compete against a Mach 2. It is designed to compete against other Waszps. I doubt many, if any, will turn up to race against Moths because that would be rather pointless.

 

I also think there are rather a lot of parents who throw Waszp sized budgets at their kids. Don't just think of what happens here in Oz with the 29er/420 scene. In the UK, there were 48 420's and 130 29ers at their respective nationals. That makes nearly 180 sets of parents willing to splash the money. Having said that, there were 44 29ers at the last Oz nationals and 36 420's. Also sailing parents understand that you are not splashing, say, $12,000. You get money back when you sell the boat so it is finance and depreciation costs. Once you understand that, sailing is actually cheaper compared with some sports than people realise.

 

Yeah, but most Waszp's will probably be sailed at clubs that already have moths at them, an a lot of kids who have the keenest interest in moth sailing are already at those clubs too (I was one of them).

 

Regardless of what %age of Waszp buyers are youth sailors, I know from personal experience that not long after becoming a competent Waszp sailor that is able to keep the boat going at its speed ceiling at all times, they will likely want to upgrade. When I could competently sail my Bladerider I instantly wanted a Mach2, and I still do. If I was me in the future but younger and sitting in my Waszp watching guys in Moths going way faster, I'd want to be there with them. I'm not fortunate enough to have significant parental funding or be a decade or two into my career, so that'll have to wait.

 

I'd like to know how many of those $300 queue holders are old fat blokes and how many are parents looking to get something for their kid, I guess we'll see what the buyer demographic looks like in a year or two.

 

Despite all of this, I don't think it should be as limited as it is.

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I'm not fortunate enough to have significant parental funding or be a decade or two into my career, so that'll have to wait.

.

 

....by the time you're a ''decade or two into your career'',,,you'll have a wife and kids and wish yer had kept the OD rather than splashing on the now obsolete tinker toy. :mellow:

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In my[young person] opinion most youth sailors will graduate from the Waszp pretty quickly. As soon as they can sail it competently they'll want to be keeping up with the older guys in Mach2's but will be limited by the hardware. I'm not sure how much competition there will be for youth sailors to race each other, the groups of younger guys who have parents that throw a bit of money at them (read: 29er/420 sailors) are very small.

 

The old fat guys will probably enjoy the Waszp long term.

I don't think you understand the idea of a one design. ;) The Waszp is not meant to compete against a Mach 2. It is designed to compete against other Waszps. I doubt many, if any, will turn up to race against Moths because that would be rather pointless.

 

I also think there are rather a lot of parents who throw Waszp sized budgets at their kids. Don't just think of what happens here in Oz with the 29er/420 scene. In the UK, there were 48 420's and 130 29ers at their respective nationals. That makes nearly 180 sets of parents willing to splash the money. Having said that, there were 44 29ers at the last Oz nationals and 36 420's. Also sailing parents understand that you are not splashing, say, $12,000. You get money back when you sell the boat so it is finance and depreciation costs. Once you understand that, sailing is actually cheaper compared with some sports than people realise.

 

Yeah, but most Waszp's will probably be sailed at clubs that already have moths at them, an a lot of kids who have the keenest interest in moth sailing are already at those clubs too (I was one of them).

 

Regardless of what %age of Waszp buyers are youth sailors, I know from personal experience that not long after becoming a competent Waszp sailor that is able to keep the boat going at its speed ceiling at all times, they will likely want to upgrade. When I could competently sail my Bladerider I instantly wanted a Mach2, and I still do. If I was me in the future but younger and sitting in my Waszp watching guys in Moths going way faster, I'd want to be there with them. I'm not fortunate enough to have significant parental funding or be a decade or two into my career, so that'll have to wait.

 

Again, you are talking like a Moth sailor. This is not a Moth. It might happen to measure as one, but that is not the idea. It is not intended to be raced against Moths and anybody who buys one to race against Moths is being stupid. I actually think you are the perfect target for the Waszp, but you don't get it. If you bought a Waszp and raced against other Waszps, you would no longer need to worry about getting a Mach 2. To sail a foiling calss where everybody is equal and you cannot spend your way to more speed has got to be attractive. It's what the Bladerider was originally intended for but it ended up too expensive and too early in the development cycle.

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In the UK, there were 48 420's and 130 29ers at their respective nationals.

Yes but a significant number of those parents and youth think they may be on the Olympic pathway (and some really are). Not the same. If people who should know believe the Waszp could be a viable youth boat in AUS then who am I to argue but I can't see it in the UK. I can see it as a niche class for fat old blokes. Most Moth sailors I know are fat old blokes so not much change there. OK not as fat as all that. Now if the Waszp ever became an Olympic class, everything changes.

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one design racing is great, but does it need to be foiling?

is there a market for OD foiling racing?

what i'm saying: if you really want OD, why not sail a laser or a IOM (ok IOM is totally not OD, but I hope you get the point).

for me OD is not about absolute speed, but only about relative speed. It can be a stinking slow but still be a blast to race. That's what's so good about OD.

Now the appeal of the moth is something very different. it is only about speed, speed and speed. That's why the blokes sail a foiling boat.

now why would you want a semi fast foiling boat just to get OD?

I know - the points I mentioned (OD or non OD) are rather extreme - but that is part of the discussion. Taking it to the extremes.

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one design racing is great, but does it need to be foiling?

is there a market for OD foiling racing?

what i'm saying: if you really want OD, why not sail a laser or a IOM (ok IOM is totally not OD, but I hope you get the point).

for me OD is not about absolute speed, but only about relative speed. It can be a stinking slow but still be a blast to race. That's what's so good about OD.

Now the appeal of the moth is something very different. it is only about speed, speed and speed. That's why the blokes sail a foiling boat.

now why would you want a semi fast foiling boat just to get OD?

I know - the points I mentioned (OD or non OD) are rather extreme - but that is part of the discussion. Taking it to the extremes.

Lolz: Why would anyone want anything other than gospel & elvis? I mean anything else woiuld be just noise, no sence in hyperbeats laced with alien sounds or the extremes of a solo pan pipe riff when music has already been letterboxed?

 

 

I agree. why would you want anything else?

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25 knots is semi fast? When I was a kid we used to think double digits was smoking.

 

Back to talking about extremes, let's compare 2 one design classes that are fairly popular on gt he east coast of the US. Now that winter is upon us, fleets of ICs will be rolling out of garages in New York, Annapolis and other spots. These 2 person bathtubs have maybe a top speed of 3knots. Close, tactical racing, sure. Do I want to race in that fleet? Not really. When May rolls around some of these same sailors in some of the same places will pull out their other boat, a 5o5. Totally different boat-fast, tunable on the fly and a tinkerers dream. Similarities between the 2 are that they are both 2 person and, yes, both tactical. The limited development nature of the 5o5 keeps someone from radically changing something and obsoleting the rest of the fleet. Fast and tactical is possible and a model for success that I think the Waszp can follow.

 

Another similarity between the 5o5 and Waszp- when I had my Hamlin, me and other guys with Lindseys and other older super boats lusted after the latest Rondars winning races. What we didn't have was the 2x to 3x size budget to make it happen. These numbers are almost the same for the Waszp. So kids may lust after the latest Mach 2 once they feel like they have mastered it, but I don't think many parents will plunk down the extra cash to make the leap to that level. I suspect that there will be some old fit blokes that will be beating the kids for a while anyway

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Following on from some of the comments, and those praising the virtues of one design foil racing but have never sailed a foiling boat, I wonder if the reality will align with their expectations. This is a foiling boat, it handles differently to a normal boat and may things will have to be re-learnt. Manoeuvres that you take for granted will be just out of reach for over a year for many as a gybe or a tack means imminent swimming practice. One design racing? For the first few years it will be who can keep it upright around he course the most. For a moth sailor, racing in this fleet would be less interesting as the racing will better in the moth class for many years. So for the older sailor this will be a bit of an ego deflation. Going in light airs will also be challenging and require certain levels of fitness as the boat will be inherently unstable and unbalanced until there is enough pressure in the rig.

 

The tuning of the control system is an area that makes a big difference as well, get that wrong on a given day and there will be a big difference in performance. From what I have seen, ability to change this in the water will be limited. To get the most out of these boats will require a leap in technical knowledge of the mechanics of everything, and if you are going into this not thinking that, then you probably should sit back and let it sink in for a while.

 

Then there is he foil design, one of the interesting reading through the foil information is the massive difference in drag that can occur on the foil based on flap angle. Certain angles are less drag and the boat will be optimal for a sailor/ boat combination that at that speed, results in maximum speed output but any change in conditions and that will shift to a new weigh combination. The flap angle will not be the same for each boat at height, but will vary slightly so that the upwards lifting force will match the overall sailing weight. Effectively, the performance of the boats will change outside of the sailors control depending on conditions to favour different overall weights, unless of course every skipper is made one design too..... A nice thing about the moth is that if you were so inclined, you could get the foil design optimised for your weight to optimise the lift drag ratio for typical conditions.

 

I also like to comment that for those who think the lack of stays makes it safer, the only time i crash that scares me now is in the middle of a tack or gybe where i hit the mast.The massive bruise on my wrist proves my point. I have only hit the stays in a crash once. on my second time out, ever since I get ejected well clear.

 

This could be a great way to get kids into the moth class as kids always want speed and the skills they learn on this will help in progression. But any kid going upwind on one of these being overtaken to leeward by the latest tricked out moth at almost twice their speed will have then drooling, no matter how good the one design racing is. But for those who consider this an easy way to get foiling and have competitive racing, the learning curve will not be as easy as you think and the competitive racing will be a long way off.

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Now that winter is upon us, fleets of ICs will be rolling out of garages in New York, Annapolis and other spots. These 2 person bathtubs have maybe a top speed of 3knots.

Am I the only person who had to look up what these slow 2 person ICs might be?

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Following on from some of the comments, and those praising the virtues of one design foil racing but have never sailed a foiling boat, I wonder if the reality will align with their expectations. This is a foiling boat, it handles differently to a normal boat and may things will have to be re-learnt. Manoeuvres that you take for granted will be just out of reach for over a year for many as a gybe or a tack means imminent swimming practice. One design racing? For the first few years it will be who can keep it upright around he course the most. For a moth sailor, racing in this fleet would be less interesting as the racing will better in the moth class for many years. So for the older sailor this will be a bit of an ego deflation. Going in light airs will also be challenging and require certain levels of fitness as the boat will be inherently unstable and unbalanced until there is enough pressure in the rig.

 

The tuning of the control system is an area that makes a big difference as well, get that wrong on a given day and there will be a big difference in performance. From what I have seen, ability to change this in the water will be limited. To get the most out of these boats will require a leap in technical knowledge of the mechanics of everything, and if you are going into this not thinking that, then you probably should sit back and let it sink in for a while.

 

Then there is he foil design, one of the interesting reading through the foil information is the massive difference in drag that can occur on the foil based on flap angle. Certain angles are less drag and the boat will be optimal for a sailor/ boat combination that at that speed, results in maximum speed output but any change in conditions and that will shift to a new weigh combination. The flap angle will not be the same for each boat at height, but will vary slightly so that the upwards lifting force will match the overall sailing weight. Effectively, the performance of the boats will change outside of the sailors control depending on conditions to favour different overall weights, unless of course every skipper is made one design too..... A nice thing about the moth is that if you were so inclined, you could get the foil design optimised for your weight to optimise the lift drag ratio for typical conditions.

 

I also like to comment that for those who think the lack of stays makes it safer, the only time i crash that scares me now is in the middle of a tack or gybe where i hit the mast.The massive bruise on my wrist proves my point. I have only hit the stays in a crash once. on my second time out, ever since I get ejected well clear.

 

This could be a great way to get kids into the moth class as kids always want speed and the skills they learn on this will help in progression. But any kid going upwind on one of these being overtaken to leeward by the latest tricked out moth at almost twice their speed will have then drooling, no matter how good the one design racing is. But for those who consider this an easy way to get foiling and have competitive racing, the learning curve will not be as easy as you think and the competitive racing will be a long way off.

 

agree

the point of foiling is sailing fast, not OD.

As soon as you mastered the wasp and you see the speed of a moth - well what's keeping you back? some money probably. sell the wasp to a newbe and get a used Mach2 - you'll still need to invest some dough.

so as a learner - maybe.

time will tell if there is a market for this thing or not. the market does not allow for an unlimited amount of classes / Boats.

There are already too many of them out there. introducing a new one is always a risk. it works if people from other classes converge to the new one.

otherwise ....

well we'll see.

 

do i want one? sure!

will i get one? no - no time for that kind of shit in the next - lets say - 10 to 15 years.

 

actually I would rather have an a-cat.

Foiling is kinda weird...

 

(i know that is kinda contradicting - cause a-cats are staring to foil aswell. so let's say I'd rather have a modern but non-foiling a-cat - that would be fine for me).

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But for those who consider this an easy way to get foiling and have competitive racing, the learning curve will not be as easy as you think and the competitive racing will be a long way off.

Actually as a member of the old and fat club, I'm not sure I'd be interested in racing them at all. It doesn't have to be about racing.

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But for those who consider this an easy way to get foiling and have competitive racing, the learning curve will not be as easy as you think and the competitive racing will be a long way off.

Actually as a member of the old and fat club, I'm not sure I'd be interested in racing them at all. It doesn't have to be about racing.

Same of me - though not yet an old fart.

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But for those who consider this an easy way to get foiling and have competitive racing, the learning curve will not be as easy as you think and the competitive racing will be a long way off.

Actually as a member of the old and fat club, I'm not sure I'd be interested in racing them at all. It doesn't have to be about racing.

 

 

Then just buy a second hand moth. reliability is good if they are standard and not modified. spares are a plenty, lots of info on how to sail them and you can put that extra cash you save to the Ferrari you have your eye on. Also the second hand moth will be faster.

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one design racing is great, but does it need to be foiling?

is there a market for OD foiling racing?

what i'm saying: if you really want OD, why not sail a laser or a IOM (ok IOM is totally not OD, but I hope you get the point).

for me OD is not about absolute speed, but only about relative speed. It can be a stinking slow but still be a blast to race. That's what's so good about OD.

Now the appeal of the moth is something very different. it is only about speed, speed and speed. That's why the blokes sail a foiling boat.

now why would you want a semi fast foiling boat just to get OD?

I know - the points I mentioned (OD or non OD) are rather extreme - but that is part of the discussion. Taking it to the extremes.

 

One Design + Levitation. That's the appeal. I can't levitate above water on my Laser or Aero. I want the Wazp OD because I can then magically levitate above water, and maybe race with other magical levitaters who sail on the same magic carpet. Yes, I know that other magic carpets go faster. But dude - I'm levitating above water! For some, that's all that's wanted/needed.

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But for those who consider this an easy way to get foiling and have competitive racing, the learning curve will not be as easy as you think and the competitive racing will be a long way off.

Actually as a member of the old and fat club, I'm not sure I'd be interested in racing them at all. It doesn't have to be about racing.

 

 

Agreed. It's the levitation. I just want to learn to levitate above water w/ a foiler that doesn't need CONSTANT care, attention, maintenance, and feeding. I think people aren't giving credit to how cool the LEVITATION is.

 

How fast do I want to go? As fast as is required to LEVITATE. Anything beyond that is gravy.

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Some fantasies here.

 

Yes flying is great, quiet, smooth and fast if you get it right. Lots to learn for those not used to the way the apparent wind switches forward so quickly once flying, the old fat guys will have to learn to sheet on fast of do a lot of capsizing to windward. Once they get it right they will still have a few crashes until they learn which size waves are safe to drive over. At least they will not crash into the shrouds. But like Jet skis, it will all get boring after a while and you will be looking for someone to race.

 

Maintenance. If you mix Aluminium with Stainless Steel, Titanium, fibreglass and carbon and add salt water you will get corrosion. The Waszp has a few less components than a Mach2 but it stiil has about 3 times the functions and 3 times the moving components compared to a Laser. Lots of working hinges, joints, threads and bearings in the pushrod system and lots of joints in the wings. All of these things which will experience wear. Heaps of things which will need to be checked, serviced, maintained and one day replaced. Waszp might be a simplified moth but its still a complicated machine and negligence will lead to disappointment.

 

This is not the first attempt to make a One Design moth. The obvious ones were the Bladerider and the Europe, many others were more local and less successful. All quickly looked old fashioned as the moth class progressed. This will continue. The Waszp will soon look like a slow old moth. That is why its being promoted as a new OD. It may well fill a niche market as a youth boat. I hope so. The youths will soon aspire to a real moth, whatever it is in the future.

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I find it both amusing and frustrating to read some of this. Thankfully for Amac, it seems that there are very few on here who are his target market.

 

To the Moth sailors, you are going to need to change your mindset to understand the Waszp. To start with, many people who sail a development class do not get one designs. A development class is all about using the rules to get a boat to go as fast as possible. For many, that is simply another skill along with tactics, boat handling etc. For others, they do not want that whole development piece. They want to know that they are on the water competing against exactly teh same boat, with only the sailor's skill making a difference. The problem that many have with the moth is the vast cost of development. Top sailors have many $1000's tied up in foils. Even many of the mid fleeters will have more than one rudder foil, each costing over $1000 and some will also have more than one main foil, which can cost $2500. So you might well have $7000+ tied up in foil horizontals, which is over half the cost of a Waszp! And if there is a new, quantum leap foil developed, what do you do? This isn't a matter of having the skill to use it. Most can sail round the course in, say, 10-12 knots, so if the guy you have raced level with for the last year suddenly gets a new, better foil, you either have to accept you will be beaten by him or you buy as well. Now, I am a development class sailor and have zero problem with that, but many, many people do have an issue with it. For many, buying a boat that you know could become completely outclassed through development (and therefore worth far less) at any time is simply something they cannot afford to do. For instance, the Mach 2 killed Bladerider values. I lost 25% of the value of my boat almost overnight when we realised how good the Mach 2 was.

 

Then there is the issue of speed. We learnt years ago that speed is a fairly small component in people choosing classes. If it were important, everybody would sail only a very few classes. And for many, foiling has always been about the sensation of foiling, rather than absolute top speed. The vast majority of the Moth fleet get nowhere near the top speeds seen by the top guys, but they still enjoy their sailing.

 

Which leads to the Waszp. To succeed, the Waszp does not need to have the ultimate top speed. Once you get over that, so much becomes easier. I believe that there are 2 approaches to foiling stability. You can take the Moth approach, which uses the ability to change settings (gearing, wand etc) to give you optimum control for any given set of conditions. This allows you to use foils that are very fast but which do not perform so well if you do not have the settings right. Then there is another approach, which is what I believe Amac is using here. The Waszp foils will never reach the same top speeds as a Moth because they are designed to work well over a far wider range of situations. Instead of needing all that adjustment, the foils do the job. Once you stop searching for maximum speed, a whole new area of development opens up that is a completely different approach to the Moth. That is what Amac has doen with the Waszp, and if you think Amac cannot develop a set of foils that work well in all conditions without adjustment, you underestimate the man. And to be clear, "working well" is not measured against absolute speed but by control across the range of conditions.

 

There has been a long held belief by people closely involved with the development of foiling Moth that there is a very big demand for a one design, monohull foiler and that based on what customers have asked for. This was the original point of the Bladerider and lessons learnt from that have, i am sure, framed a lot of the Waszp development. We believe that if you built the ultimate Moth, which the Bladerider was when it first raced, it would be possible to continue the class after it was no longer competitive in Moths. What we didn't take into account was that the next series of Moths were so much easier to sail. That is what killed the Bladerider as a one design. Many don't know that we had done all the work on a one design class. I had written the rules, constitution and even had the global structure for the class association ready to go, plus the applications for ISAF International status. Rohan and I had even worked out teh details of the first Bladerider World Championships. I had even gone to 3 ISAF conferences and there was a big interest in using a one design Moth for a number of different events, from youth worlds to potentially, the Olympics.

 

So from all the lessons learnt, I believe that the Waszp will be as easy or easier to sail than a Mach 2, particularly in the more difficult conditions, while being far less complex. It will be far cheaper to buy and campaign. The number of initial orders Amac has received suggests that there is the demand. It will not appeal to most existing Moth sailors, but for the rest, once they have tried it..... I think the Waszp will be the fastest growing class in the world and will exceed most peoples expectations. Which is great, because Amac deserves it. This has been 10 years in the making and in the words of BTO "You ain't seen nothing yet"!

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Simon, I am not totally against OD boats. I had a Laser for about 15 years. I bought it for my teenage daughter who raced it for a couple of seasons, then my son sailed a few more, then I did 3 or 4 races a season for a few years. It also sat idle for a few years in various back yards. When we bought it it was a good condition, 10 year old example of a crap boat. When we sold it, it was still a good old example of the same crap boat and it was just as competitive in club fleets as it was when we got it. The very best part was that the buying price and the selling price were the same $1500 after 15 years.

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I'm not against OD (have spent plenty of time racing and enjoyign it!) and would never questions Amac's design skills, I just don't think the Waszp is addressing problems in the most appropriate way. Bruce's post above (#346) pretty much sums up my issues with the boat itself. I don't believe the boat needs to be quite so gimped, and I also think it's a 'youth boat' that in reality is actually a 'fat old bloke boat'.

 

It seems more like something for someone who wants their Aero 9 to foil, rather than someone who actually wants a moth.

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Simon, you are mixing up seperate issues here. The design of the Waszp, one design in general, cost reduction and people who just want to foil.

 

Any boat can be one design if you want it to, an AC72, sabot, even the Mach 2, it is simply a rules and supply consistency difference.

 

This is not a OD vs development thing, it's a "Why on earth would you put up with all these compromises to just not have padded stays and tip the boat over?" thing.

 

Many current moth sailiors hate the development race, but acknowledge that without the development, the moth wouldn't be the boat it is. These are the sailors who use second hand gear and don't have 50 of everything, the homebuilders and the mid-fleeters. We aren't anti one design, but we know what makes a class great and don't want to fuck with it for self serving commercial interests (which is ultimatley what the Waszp is).

 

The dream of laser sytle sailing on a foiler, with trolly sail out launching, not getting wet and no maintenance is simply a dream.

 

I think the Waszp will be a great feeder class for the moths, which is what I ultimatley see happening. Waszp sailors, will welcome you with open arms. Just pay your class dues and make your boat Moth class legal, with all the right measurement and class stickers. Oh and you can change anything you want ...

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The dream of laser sytle sailing on a foiler, with trolly sail out launching, not getting wet and no maintenance is simply a dream.

 

..

 

An easy to sail and launch foiler is a realistic dream possible right now.

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Phil

 

You posted while I was writing and I know you well enough that I can assure you the comments weren't aimed at you!

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The dream of laser sytle sailing on a foiler, with trolly sail out launching, not getting wet and no maintenance is simply a dream.

..

 

An easy to sail and launch foiler is a realistic dream possible right now.

I agree 100% doug ... as long as you just forget the last two parts of my point, as you conveniently did.

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Now that winter is upon us, fleets of ICs will be rolling out of garages in New York, Annapolis and other spots. These 2 person bathtubs have maybe a top speed of 3knots.

Am I the only person who had to look up what these slow 2 person ICs might be?

Dude, all you have to know is bathtub and 3ksb and you have the IC understood

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Now that winter is upon us, fleets of ICs will be rolling out of garages in New York, Annapolis and other spots. These 2 person bathtubs have maybe a top speed of 3knots.

Am I the only person who had to look up what these slow 2 person ICs might be?

Dude, all you have to know is bathtub and 3ksb and you have the IC understood

You may need to elaborate, some here might think an IC is an International Canoe which might exceed your 3ktsb by a small margin.

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Now that winter is upon us, fleets of ICs will be rolling out of garages in New York, Annapolis and other spots. These 2 person bathtubs have maybe a top speed of 3knots.

Am I the only person who had to look up what these slow 2 person ICs might be?
Dude, all you have to know is bathtub and 3ksb and you have the IC understood
You may need to elaborate, some here might think an IC is an International Canoe which might exceed your 3ktsb by a small margin.
+1

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Now that winter is upon us, fleets of ICs will be rolling out of garages in New York, Annapolis and other spots. These 2 person bathtubs have maybe a top speed of 3knots.

Am I the only person who had to look up what these slow 2 person ICs might be?
Dude, all you have to know is bathtub and 3ksb and you have the IC understood
You may need to elaborate, some here might think an IC is an International Canoe which might exceed your 3ktsb by a small margin.
I would suspect that most people on their first few sails on "those" IC's would be happy to average 3kts. I believe most of the time they are treading water...

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I find it both amusing and frustrating to read some of this. Thankfully for Amac, it seems that there are very few on here who are his target market.

 

To the Moth sailors, you are going to need to change your mindset to understand the Waszp. To start with, many people who sail a development class do not get one designs. A development class is all about using the rules to get a boat to go as fast as possible. For many, that is simply another skill along with tactics, boat handling etc. For others, they do not want that whole development piece. They want to know that they are on the water competing against exactly teh same boat, with only the sailor's skill making a difference. The problem that many have with the moth is the vast cost of development. Top sailors have many $1000's tied up in foils. Even many of the mid fleeters will have more than one rudder foil, each costing over $1000 and some will also have more than one main foil, which can cost $2500. So you might well have $7000+ tied up in foil horizontals, which is over half the cost of a Waszp! And if there is a new, quantum leap foil developed, what do you do? This isn't a matter of having the skill to use it. Most can sail round the course in, say, 10-12 knots, so if the guy you have raced level with for the last year suddenly gets a new, better foil, you either have to accept you will be beaten by him or you buy as well. Now, I am a development class sailor and have zero problem with that, but many, many people do have an issue with it. For many, buying a boat that you know could become completely outclassed through development (and therefore worth far less) at any time is simply something they cannot afford to do. For instance, the Mach 2 killed Bladerider values. I lost 25% of the value of my boat almost overnight when we realised how good the Mach 2 was.

 

Then there is the issue of speed. We learnt years ago that speed is a fairly small component in people choosing classes. If it were important, everybody would sail only a very few classes. And for many, foiling has always been about the sensation of foiling, rather than absolute top speed. The vast majority of the Moth fleet get nowhere near the top speeds seen by the top guys, but they still enjoy their sailing.

 

Which leads to the Waszp. To succeed, the Waszp does not need to have the ultimate top speed. Once you get over that, so much becomes easier. I believe that there are 2 approaches to foiling stability. You can take the Moth approach, which uses the ability to change settings (gearing, wand etc) to give you optimum control for any given set of conditions. This allows you to use foils that are very fast but which do not perform so well if you do not have the settings right. Then there is another approach, which is what I believe Amac is using here. The Waszp foils will never reach the same top speeds as a Moth because they are designed to work well over a far wider range of situations. Instead of needing all that adjustment, the foils do the job. Once you stop searching for maximum speed, a whole new area of development opens up that is a completely different approach to the Moth. That is what Amac has doen with the Waszp, and if you think Amac cannot develop a set of foils that work well in all conditions without adjustment, you underestimate the man. And to be clear, "working well" is not measured against absolute speed but by control across the range of conditions.

 

There has been a long held belief by people closely involved with the development of foiling Moth that there is a very big demand for a one design, monohull foiler and that based on what customers have asked for. This was the original point of the Bladerider and lessons learnt from that have, i am sure, framed a lot of the Waszp development. We believe that if you built the ultimate Moth, which the Bladerider was when it first raced, it would be possible to continue the class after it was no longer competitive in Moths. What we didn't take into account was that the next series of Moths were so much easier to sail. That is what killed the Bladerider as a one design. Many don't know that we had done all the work on a one design class. I had written the rules, constitution and even had the global structure for the class association ready to go, plus the applications for ISAF International status. Rohan and I had even worked out teh details of the first Bladerider World Championships. I had even gone to 3 ISAF conferences and there was a big interest in using a one design Moth for a number of different events, from youth worlds to potentially, the Olympics.

 

So from all the lessons learnt, I believe that the Waszp will be as easy or easier to sail than a Mach 2, particularly in the more difficult conditions, while being far less complex. It will be far cheaper to buy and campaign. The number of initial orders Amac has received suggests that there is the demand. It will not appeal to most existing Moth sailors, but for the rest, once they have tried it..... I think the Waszp will be the fastest growing class in the world and will exceed most peoples expectations. Which is great, because Amac deserves it. This has been 10 years in the making and in the words of BTO "You ain't seen nothing yet"!

+1. Very well put Simon

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From the Waszp Website:

 

 

Designer Andrew McDougall on the status of the WASZP…

 

Today we sailed the boat after installing a new production mast, a new wand control system, production injection parts, and an improved mainsheet system. As you can see from the video the boat is really coming to life now.

The sailor is Harry Mighell, (pronounced My-ell). Harry has taken the Waszp to heart and has been out testing on it more than anyone. He holds the speed record of 24.79 kn. He has been working for us for nearly 6 months now, concentrating mainly on fluid analysis. He has taken over the design of the foil tips from me and has done a magnificent job on that and getting the dynamics of the foil systems right.

You may notice that the sail is cambered (pocket luff). If you read my last blog I was fully committed to going with a bolt rope sail. We are not going that way. We have solved the issue of rigging the cambered sail by simply reducing the weight of the rig. The prototype mast we have been using was a lot heavier than the new production mast, and the new sail is also significantly lighter than the original prototype sail. It’s now much much easier to get the mast in. It’s amazing what a kilo or two will do when it’s 5 m away from you!

We did put a lot of time in on the bolt rope sail. We found two serious issues which we solved, but the solutions were not elegant and did not have a place on this clean boat.

In late November I spent a long stretch at McCongahy and resolved a range of issues.

We built fully assembled master boat to align the ‘Green Jig’ (read more here) to ensure everything lined up millimetre perfect. Everything came together really well and we built the first production hull.

We now have two hull moulds complete and another two in final preparation, along with two Green jigs, so we are ready to build hulls.

At this stage we remain on track for first WASZP’s to start shipping in March.

I just need to finalalize the sail and make sure we don't miss our production slot.

Apologies for the shaky video, we have not had time to get someone down to do a proper shoot. So it is just me with a basic SLR, without my glasses and hanging off the rocking RIB!

 

Also in the latest newsletter:

 

A big thank you to the more than 500 sailors who took part in the WASZP hull color survey.
We tallied up the results in the middle of December and it looks like we’ve got some pretty clear direction.
In order of overall preference:

  1. Black
  2. Grey
  3. White
  4. Yellow
  5. Blue
  6. Red
  7. Purple
The top 4 were really close, with just a few percentage points between them.

Purple really lagged and we hear you – no purple.

So initially we are going to offer the top 6 as standard, no charge color options.

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''We did put a lot of time in on the bolt rope sail. We found two serious issues which we solved, but the solutions were not elegant and did not have a place on this clean boat.''

 

 

 

...aah yes,,I'll bet one of those issues was the tendency of the highly curved luff to jam when being raised on a straight mast. A prebender solves this,,but not 'elegant',,as they say. :mellow:

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''We did put a lot of time in on the bolt rope sail. We found two serious issues which we solved, but the solutions were not elegant and did not have a place on this clean boat.''

 

 

 

...aah yes,,I'll bet one of those issues was the tendency of the highly curved luff to jam when being raised on a straight mast. A prebender solves this,,but not 'elegant',,as they say. :mellow:

I hate that- hate it- I don't use a halyard on my stealth- I flip it and walk the head up the rig and lock it to the crane- I've never ever done it without making 14 trips back n forth to the foot to re feed tge bolt rope-

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''We did put a lot of time in on the bolt rope sail. We found two serious issues which we solved, but the solutions were not elegant and did not have a place on this clean boat.''

 

 

 

...aah yes,,I'll bet one of those issues was the tendency of the highly curved luff to jam when being raised on a straight mast. A prebender solves this,,but not 'elegant',,as they say. :mellow:

I hate that- hate it- I don't use a halyard on my stealth- I flip it and walk the head up the rig and lock it to the crane- I've never ever done it without making 14 trips back n forth to the foot to re feed tge bolt rope-

 

 

 

.....I hook a line loop to the mast tip with a 4:1 that hooks on the stern,,prebend the mast,,, then flick the loop off the mast.

 

 

.......makes hoisting easy,,but not pretty if a cross-puff comes while you're hoisting :mellow:

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