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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
couchsurfer

....got stung by the 'WASZP'?..OD foiler...

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i though having a road bike (carbon optional) was the only way you could stay fit enough to sail a moth if you had a job? By that I mean an actual job where you go to an actual place of work, as opposed to the kind of work BPR claims to have.

 

I.e work which involves needing transport to get there. Hence a bike helps you squeeze in the 10 hours of mid week exercise required to build the thighs capable of surviving a 5 day moth regatta.

 

Plus, sailing could learn a lot about coffee from cycling. Except in Italy. The machiattas at Campione were well worth the euros. Hayling island, strangely not so good :P

 

My arms quite often give up before my legs on a windy day, and I don't really do any exercise bar sailing.

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The machiattas at Campione were well worth the euros. Hayling island, strangely not so good :P

Oh, the humanity. What the hell is a machiatta? Even Google doesn't know.

 

 

similar to a macchiato but it has tits

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BR3232,I'm guessing you're heavier than 70 kgs. I'm 65 kgs and I flat hike in over 10 knots. I simply cannot get fit enough to sustain it as I only manage to sail twice a month nowadays.

I totally agree about sailing being the best way to stay fit though. Just hard to do when your boat is 90 minutes away.

 

To go back to techs question, I think the appeal of waszp is very different for each type of mothie or non mothie. The answers show that. A mid life crisis has driven a lot of moth purchases that I can see. Waszps are bound to appeal there too. The younger guy with no kids who likes one design as it's less time consuming. And those that don't like spending so much on sailing cause the wife fucking hates it.

 

The youth thing is a good point. I can't see much happening now but Sailing will go that way once people learn how to teach foiling as per how they learnt to teach high performance skiff type sailing.

 

Heres Looking forward to coffee with tits at malcesine!

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BR3232,I'm guessing you're heavier than 70 kgs. I'm 65 kgs and I flat hike in over 10 knots. I simply cannot get fit enough to sustain it as I only manage to sail twice a month nowadays.

I totally agree about sailing being the best way to stay fit though. Just hard to do when your boat is 90 minutes away.

 

To go back to techs question, I think the appeal of waszp is very different for each type of mothie or non mothie. The answers show that. A mid life crisis has driven a lot of moth purchases that I can see. Waszps are bound to appeal there too. The younger guy with no kids who likes one design as it's less time consuming. And those that don't like spending so much on sailing cause the wife fucking hates it.

 

The youth thing is a good point. I can't see much happening now but Sailing will go that way once people learn how to teach foiling as per how they learnt to teach high performance skiff type sailing.

 

Heres Looking forward to coffee with tits at malcesine!

64.5kg last time I weighed myself! I'm the same as you, sail twice a month, boat is a PITA to take out.

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On a slightly different subject, and maybe one we have already broached (there are over 500 replies after all), what do the Waszp 100 guys and gals on the east coast of the US think a regatta schedule may look like? Off the top of my head, and attempting to go in chronological order:

 

Mid-winters: Florida, panhandle (Sta Andrews Bay YC, Ft Walton, Pensacola?), Tampa/ Clearwater?, US Sailing Center in Stuart?, Miami?, Keys? The earlier the event, the further south it would need to be.

 

June (early): West River Sailing Club Dave Irey (near Annapolis); SSA would probably need some persuading and the NOOD a little earlier may not be a good fit. Spring= seabreeze there.

 

July (late): Hyannis Annual Regatta: the class would have to get an invite and juniors racing the boat would definitely help. Then again, 5o5s and F18s sail, so it may work.

Better: Marblehead Race Week, open classes (never sailed there, but sea breeze seems likely)

 

August (middle): Blackbeard Sailing Club OD Regatta. Shameless plug for my home club. 2 circles, junior regatta

or

Sept: Outer Banks of NC. Several good venues, out of season makes housing affordable.

 

Oct (Columbus Day) HPDO in American YC Rye, NY. Brr, but I love the regatta and the venue.

 

Winter training camp in Florida somewhere?

 

Just some ideas. Folks getting boats in NY and NE will probably have better regattas in mind in those areas

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sounds good.

i'll wait until all kids (also the unborn) don't need carrying around anymore, then maybe another couple of years, then I'll also get one.

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Orca project is really cool,but the boat will be ridicously expensive. I'm still curious to see how the boat will perform (how much faster than a moth) and to understand how big will be the target market for a project like that. Guys behind it are smart so they have have run some numbers for sure.

 

 

Back on waszp,e-mail arrived to those who preordered,with shipmemt schedule,some photos and order information.

 

Shipments start I think later this month or next month. A friend of mine with one of the latest order is due end august

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Why not just go for a wingsail if you're going for pure performance?

 

Do we have any info on the big moth's pricing? and maybe dimensions too?

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They will be shipping boats with the full sized rig (8.25m) in the next few weeks. Mine is due to ship 22 May ... except that I want the mid-sized rig and the other sails won't be ready till August. They need to optimise the other two sails and then arrange slots at the factory.

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Why not just go for a wingsail if you're going for pure performance?

 

Do we have any info on the big moth's pricing? and maybe dimensions too?

I heard an interview with Randy Smythe recently where he said that wing sails were only of value if you have a rig limit. He learnt this when developing the Stars and Stripes cat, the soft sail rig was faster.

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Why not just go for a wingsail if you're going for pure performance?

 

Do we have any info on the big moth's pricing? and maybe dimensions too?

I heard an interview with Randy Smythe recently where he said that wing sails were only of value if you have a rig limit. He learnt this when developing the Stars and Stripes cat, the soft sail rig was faster.

 

I suspect you misheard this, because the way you have written it is incorret. For any given sail area, a wing sail preforms better than a soft sail. Take the Stars and Stripes cat. There was no rig limit, yet there was a reason why they chose to race with a wing rather than soft rig. Remember, they trialed the 2 types of rig against each other and the wing was chosen because it was faster. In more recent times, BMW Oracle converted their DoG match race Tri from soft sail to wing, again because of performance gains.

 

For any given sail area, a properly designed and built wing rig will out perform a soft sail rig.

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No matter what the performance, no matter what the size a wing sail is a total pain in the arse. It might be worth it in the AC and CCats but not for smaller boats.

 

Anything bigger than a CCat needs a crane to raise and lower the rig, plus a team of skilled people and the right wind conditions.

The CCat guys have developed a good method with a gantry but still need a few extra people to rig, unrig and even launch the boats. Then you need a good size tent or shed to store it in.

 

Moth size boats are great single handers, you can unload the boat from the car or trailer, rig it, launch it and pack it all up afterwards without any extra equipment or extra people.

 

Believe me because I have tried it, the moth wing took 6 months to build, needed two people to assemble and rig it, three people to launch the boat, and a huge (triple moth size) box to store the 4 major components even when it was disassembled. Luckily it was not a huge success functionally, so was quickly dismantled and the major parts used on another project. One of my least rewarding experiments.

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All true, and you missed out one important factor which makes a wing unsuited to smaller boats like the Moth and A Class. Weight is a factor, and if you make it light enough, it probably won't survive a capsize intact. The smaller the boat, the more likely the capsize. We saw the destruction with Bora's wing on the Moth, while this factor alone stops me building a wing for the A. most agree it will probably be faster, but one swim and you can kiss goodbye to a rather expensive carbon structure.

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wow guys, your really sucking the fun out of wing sails!. your both right in some respects, but I disagree that they are too heavy, take a team to rig it and they cant withstand damage. I always intended mine to fit it in my van and be rigged by myself, one small detail prevented rigging solo so I had my 'wingman' help me for 5 mins - after that I was rigged quicker than I could get my bolt rope & wing mast up and going. Weight wise I ended up with a wing 5 kg more than I wanted (I was going for 11kg) but after building it (always the way) I worked out a way to claw back that weight and get back on target. Damage? I dumped the darn thing in the drink lots of times and at least 3 times doing 20kts, no real damage resulted from these crashes.

 

I would have loved to had more races under my belt to back up the claim I make saying that it had moments of great performance (sometimes terrifying) and potential, where I really suffered was the build time, I probably spent too long designing and 3D modelling something which was such a departure from a 'normal' wing sail. I did try to build a 'dirty' solid polystyrene wing but hot wire tech has just not evolved to do multi axis yet so I was doomed to having to design and make a proper/decent wing - best guesses were made and what happened, happened.

 

I will sail my wing more and I expect it to outperform my wing mast on almost every level from what little I have experienced - my point? I got close guys, don't give up, someone with fresh ideas will look at what has been built up to now and re invent it, technology is moving so fast - one day we will all have wing sails !!

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freamo, I'm about 63kg.

The info on the Waszp website says the mid-sized sail (6.9m sq) has a target weight range of 50 to 75kg and the full sized sail is 65 to 95kg. I know there are moth sailors at my kind of weight who use the full sized rig, but being new to foiling (and high performance dinghies in general) I reckon the 6.9 will be plenty for me to handle, at least for the first season or two.

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fair enough Sean. I'm 65 kgs and have no trouble in a moth but i have had one for a while and even when i started i had sailed some high performance boats. I do have to depower it a lot as the breeze gets above 15 but I can still sail it in 20 knots all right. more on flat water!

 

I reckon if you get it with the big rig you might as well sail it with that in anything under 12 knots. it'd be fine.

 

Still, i'll be intrigued to see how they foil with their foil set up and a smaller sail. I suspect it might need as much as 10 knots but hopefully will be proved wrong.

A normal moth takes a bit of skill to get foiling in sub 7 knots and people over 80 can struggle in 8, i'm sure people will say otherwise but I think that's fair. I imagine losing that much sail area might make a difference.

 

I guess it's on the same mast as the 8.25m sail? Maybe the removed area is all at the bottom of the sail which would reduce the impact in light breeze.

 

do you know if Simon Payne is getting one? i suspect he will get one and be the showboater for the first few years or so to try and sell them in the UK?

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I don't know who else is getting one in the UK, or what plans they have for distribution and promotion. I get the impression that they've been totally focused on getting the boat into production in a form that will work long term as a one design, and marketing has taken a back seat. Which I think is definitely the correct approach.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the spec of the smaller sail(s) changes from what's on the website. An earlier email said they'd get the 8.25m sail into production with the first boats, then worry about the smaller sails once production was up and running. I believe the mast will be common to all sails so guess the missing area will be off the foot and leech as you suggest.

 

It will be interesting to see how the smaller sail works in lighter winds and how much it hinders foiling. I look forward to getting competent enough to worry about about needing a bigger sail!

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Hi everybody!

 

Any of you configuring the boat to be sent? I'm struggling with how important the internal or external bladder is for learning. I'm guessing "transforming" the external bladder to internal version, or building a basic tramp version without the bladder, will be fairly easy, so the best option for me is to get the external,bladder for learning first? I have never foiled and only seen Moths on video! Can't wait to start tho! :)

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madden – I’m a foiling virgin like you and I’ve gone for the external bladder. It won’t look as pretty but it should help to improve the sailing to swimming ratio. I think a set of tramps with internal bladders are 300USD so it’s not too punitive to upgrade when skill level allows. I don’t know how user-modifiable the externals are. Probably not, I would guess.

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Don't really know what you are talking about (internal vs external) but bladders are only really useful at very low speeds i.e. before starts.

 

Once you are moving they won't stop you capsizing. Remember it is not a multihull.

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freamo – I went with the 8.2sqm sail in the end. I talked to a couple of local mothies who supported what you said about making it harder to get foiling in lighter winds. And I asked the waszp guys and the advice was that I should be fine up to around 15 knots but may struggle above that at my weight.

 

So I reversed my initial thinking of start small and upsize when competent, and am starting large and might consider downsizing for strong winds but only after I’ve learned to sail the thing.

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Don't really know what you are talking about (internal vs external) but bladders are only really useful at very low speeds i.e. before starts.

 

Once you are moving they won't stop you capsizing. Remember it is not a multihull.

 

Chris Rashley talks about why he uses bladders on his boat during this walk through.

 

A

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I see why an external bladder which goes qute under the wingbar is better for a beginner,when you splash all your tacks and most of all when you do a lot of stupid things while lowriding.

 

One you are up to speed,during races they are only useful as damage limitations tool when you completely mess your tacks (if you mess a gybe or di supid things on foil they don't help at all)

 

In the end I'd be more happy to have them, but still my boat doesn't have them and it's not a huge deal.

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Any happy owners out there? The web site mentioned a ship date of 15June....so the big boxes should be getting close....

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I had ghe chance to see it in sone detail,had a chat with Harry (the joung guy who designed the foils), and also did a quick line-up upwind

 

First,at land the boats looks good. Very clean layout,no obvious issues nice graphics. There is only one big "cheap" solution,that is hull vertical joins are not hidden at all. There is a clear glue line in the middle of the whole hull.

 

I just uploaded sone photos on fb.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10208562522755598&id=1084646945

 

Harry confirmed me that they went on to the idea of just adjusting the bias (ride height),so no gearing and nonwand adjustment. He says the boat copes well with most big waves.

 

Henwas out this afternoon. It looks really good!speedwise he was probably slower than me by a knot or two upwind (I was going 14-15). A friend of mine,very good moth sailor, tried it for 5 minutes and said that is a bit easier and a bit slower than a moth and the feeling of the rudder is somewhere between a moth and a normal boat.

 

I didn't see the launch, but I'm not that sure it will be that much easier than a moth

 

So in the end,if it holds toghether, it seems to do well what it was designed for :)

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Looks good Mika. You mention the join in the two parts, but I didn't see it in any pictures of it.

 

Love to hear more from anyone else who is at Gardasee.

 

Apparently, a demo boat may be coming to Newport this summer.

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Looks like the halves are joined port/starboard, joint on top can be seen here.

 

 

13558766_10208562522755598_5839272021229

 

Joint looks OK in pics, a yellow stripe would fix it.

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Yes sorry it's not very clear in my photos,but it's clearly visible live. It's a glue line which goes all the way (deck and underside) at the centerline of the hull.

I'll take a better photo on friday.

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WASZP rules are posted. Haven't had a good look yet but the Rule 42 changes are interesting ? Hard to police ?

 

www.waszp.com/class-rules

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I did a better photo if the hull glue line.

 

Boat on the water looks really good. Only downside that we saw these days is that it flies a bit later than the moths. Maybe it need 1-2 knots of more wind.

 

Stil it flies well and is quite easier both to lowride and to fly

post-20241-0-92387900-1468171401_thumb.jpg

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Any happy owners out there? The web site mentioned a ship date of 15June....so the big boxes should be getting close....

 

Mine came last week, very fun, but needed a steady 10 to keep it on its feet.

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madden – I’m a foiling virgin like you and I’ve gone for the external bladder. It won’t look as pretty but it should help to improve the sailing to swimming ratio. I think a set of tramps with internal bladders are 300USD so it’s not too punitive to upgrade when skill level allows. I don’t know how user-modifiable the externals are. Probably not, I would guess.

 

 

The rigging instructions are not the best and took me waaaaaaay longer than 2 hours to assemble out of the box; more like 8.......but I did get interrupted a ton.

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Join the club, mate. Took me quite a while to rig my Assassin out of the box, including some mods and clean ups on the way.

 

You get much better with practice.

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Any happy owners out there? The web site mentioned a ship date of 15June....so the big boxes should be getting close....

Mine came last week, very fun, but needed a steady 10 to keep it on its feet.

Out of curiosity, how much do you weigh?

DRC

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Any happy owners out there? The web site mentioned a ship date of 15June....so the big boxes should be getting close....

Mine came last week, very fun, but needed a steady 10 to keep it on its feet.

Out of curiosity, how much do you weigh?

DRC

 

200 lbs

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That seam line is pretty atrocious for a molded hull. Are there plans to fix it in the full production version? Regardless, I'm glad they appear to have the foiling correct and the price is right. Any reports in chop? tweisleder, I may twist your arm for a ride.

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I don't recall a cost/benefit analysis. Some details on the jigging: http://www.waszp.com/blog/the-green-jig-1

 

Elsewhere it is mentioned that this is a tongue and groove seam. Done right, I would expect that seam to be nearly invisible in the molds, but I am not a boat builder, a mere composite airplane builder. The key is for the seam not to fail, which I've seen more than you should.

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I've managed 3 sailing days on mine. In the 10-15 kts wind I've had, it's easy to get foiling even for this foiling newbie. The crashes are frequent but fun, and righting the boat is easy thanks to the narrow hull. I can tell a lot of practice will be needed before I can do a foiling gybe. Mostly I just fly off the outside so far.

 

Jim

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I got mine a few weeks back but have only managed to sail it once so far (work, travel, holidays, other sailing, weather etc have all got in the way).

 

The first outing was a challenge but great fun, having not sailed a dinghy of any sort for over 15 years. it was only 8 to 10 knots and being clueless and clumsy I didn't manage to get foiling, but it was great to get familiar with the boat. I reckon I managed a 50/50 split between sailing and floundering/swimming.

 

I should have more time to concentrate on the waszp from September onwards and can't wait to get properly stuck in.

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So has anyone here sailed both a Mach 2 and a Wasp, I wonder how much different the Wasp feels.The M2 is so refined any extra drag makes a big difference, I'm thinking the bigger foils on the Wasp would be quite noticeable?.

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One world champ said the other day that "It seems to move like a Bladerider, but slower. Major pitch issues." Few mothies are enamored, to put it kindly. Give AMAC time...he's pretty smart.

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Was wondering how the extra hull weight compared to a regular moth affects the performance.

The real thing is about how an older similar weight Moth goes against the Waszp in relation to its fleet pecking order. Is it worth chasing that or being against similar to race? $ spend possible for top result in moth class or in the wazps?

 

So my thinking was merely that there probably one day will be a demand for a single person foiler in the olympics and the question is whether such a boat could be built cheaply enough without compromising too much on the sailing experience.

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First the WASZP is about 20kg or 50% heavier than any older foiling moth. A converted Hungry Tiger, Axeman, A Prowler, Mistress, Bladerider X8, Mach2, Ninja, or Exocet all weigh in the 30-35kg range or about 2/3 the WASZP. We have known for years that if you have a skipper who is over 100kg (20kg heavier than median weight) he will struggle to foil until the wind is over 10kts. Of the older moths, the Prowler and Bladerider had foils which tended to take off earlier but had a lower top speed.

 

So the WASZP foils are bigger, thicker and consequently slower to enable it to take off in moderate winds. They have reported on the WAZP web site it goes well upwind but is considerably slower than a Mach2 down wind. My impression from written and verbal reports is that the take off is about the same as the Prowler/Bladerider but the top speed is quite slower.

 

Nothing wrong with that. It's intended to be a one design class. We will not know until some fleets develop just how sensitive it is to crew weight. Like all one designs eventually an optimum crew size will dominate, one design boats always end up catering for one design people.

 

I know a guy who owns both a WASZP and a Mach2. He is elderly and only races the M2 in a mixed fleet at his local club. He bought the WAZP because it promised to be simpler. After a few sails he can see how the two are different and his M2 is not for sale yet.

 

The WASZP will not become a racing Moth. It will not keep up with even the slowest Moths. If people want a Moth then a used lightweight will be a better option. If they are one design addicts, the WASZP looks like being an option. AMAC intended it to be a Youth boat, I can not see the Olympic fantasy getting past the entrenched WS power brokers.

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A scow foiler using the Welbourn foils would have enormous RM so might have a good chance in some conditions.

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The best the French/Ward foiling scows have gone was at the Perth nationals when they were clearly faster than the traditional scows but still a lap or more down on the mid fleet foilers. Still way slower than even the early foiling designs. I expect Waszp will be somewhere in between.

 

Jim French and Ian Ward have used twin T foils, and if they exit the hull below the static WL the Welbourn style would also be class legal, but both types really need the windward one retracted and that becomes a huge task with a single handed racing boat. The way the top moths tack in a few seconds, without the hull touching the water and without getting below 10kts leaves no time for raising or lowering foils.

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The best the French/Ward foiling scows have gone was at the Perth nationals when they were clearly faster than the traditional scows but still a lap or more down on the mid fleet foilers. Still way slower than even the early foiling designs. I expect Waszp will be somewhere in between.

 

Jim French and Ian Ward have used twin T foils, and if they exit the hull below the static WL the Welbourn style would also be class legal, but both types really need the windward one retracted and that becomes a huge task with a single handed racing boat. The way the top moths tack in a few seconds, without the hull touching the water and without getting below 10kts leaves no time for raising or lowering foils.

 

Not sure about that. The Welbourn type foils can be designed to sail with the windward foil well clear at about a 10 degree angle of heel. Thats one of the tests we're making with the model because it's too much hassle to retract the foil. Looks like it will work with the right amount of cant and altitude...... The huge gain in RM is worth some experimentation.

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There is no moth rule about the number of foils. But a Moth must be a monohull. With the boat floating and stationary, the boat can only make one impression on the water surface. (rudder and wand specifically excluded, singular rudder, although that has not been challenged). So any other foils have to exist the hull below the static waterline. Quant style would be legal so long as its within beam max.

 

Not many odd configurations have been tested since the now standard two foil arrangement proved so good and now its been refined so far its a big call to try something else. Thats why the WASZP uses it.

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The WASZP will not become a racing Moth. It will not keep up with even the slowest Moths. If people want a Moth then a used lightweight will be a better option. If they are one design addicts, the WASZP looks like being an option. AMAC intended it to be a Youth boat, I can not see the Olympic fantasy getting past the entrenched WS power brokers.

 

Regardless of whether moths/waszps fit in the future olympic scheme, the fact is that WS only calls the shots to certain extent. There's enormous pressure from the IOC to make sailing more interesting, so i'm quite sure that there will be a lot of changes wrt classes, format etc

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The best the French/Ward foiling scows have gone was at the Perth nationals when they were clearly faster than the traditional scows but still a lap or more down on the mid fleet foilers. Still way slower than even the early foiling designs. I expect Waszp will be somewhere in between.

 

Jim French and Ian Ward have used twin T foils, and if they exit the hull below the static WL the Welbourn style would also be class legal, but both types really need the windward one retracted and that becomes a huge task with a single handed racing boat. The way the top moths tack in a few seconds, without the hull touching the water and without getting below 10kts leaves no time for raising or lowering foils.

 

Not sure about that. The Welbourn type foils can be designed to sail with the windward foil well clear at about a 10 degree angle of heel. Thats one of the tests we're making with the model because it's too much hassle to retract the foil. Looks like it will work with the right amount of cant and altitude...... The huge gain in RM is worth some experimentation.

 

 

 

For a moth the Welbourn style foil arrangement is impractical, impossible to make legal and dangerous.

 

For most other boat types they are dangerous at the very least.

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The problem is that the quant23 and other "welbourn" boats are heeling to leeward, while a modern foiling moth is heeled to windward.

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This: "the Welbourn type foils can be designed to sail with the windward foil well clear at about a 10 degree angle of heel. " if you heel to windward, this wont work, without lifting the foil. which is the issue in a moth

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This is a WASZP thread not another argument thread about other boats.

Good point. There are enough of those threads already. Hope to get some new reports from people who actually have been sailing the waszp.

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Interested to hear from any Mothies who have sailed the Waszp and can confirm or refute what I've said below.

 

I had a build slot booked but cancelled as I got impatient - bought a second hand Mach 2 instead and haven't looked back. I am 40 years old and have learned to foil on the Mach 2, having mostly been in Etchells before that.

 

My 2 cents are that I don't think learning to sail a Waszp is going to be any easier than learning to sail a Moth - possibly it's harder (who has done both??) as it's the gybes and tacks that will be the most challenging, and with reduced performance in the Waszp they'll be even harder to get right. Less "glide time" will make foiling tacks more difficult, lower speeds downwind mean your apparent won't stay forward as long for gybing. Maybe in the tacks though the fatter foils make up for the lower speed? Being able to pull the tiller through forwards might make it easier to learn as well.

 

Re someone's earlier comments about the wing bladders - my experience learning on the Mach 2 is they're helpful in your first dozen or so hours of getting your head around the boat - it feels like you're riding a unicycle at first, and you'll spend a lot of time swimming regardless. After that they barely matter except for 2 circumstances: 1. After a really long day out they let you be a bit (but only a bit) lazier on the sail home, and 2. On the windier/bumpier days they make the boat slightly easier to right after a capsize, as a lot of water sits on the tramps and the buoyancy makes it a little easier to drag the boat upright again. I know people who have learned without them, but it's harder. Can't see it being too different in the Waszp.

 

Initially I had wanted a Waszp because I thought it would be easier to learn and sail than the Mach 2 (ie less intimidating). But looking back, the only reasons I'd get a Waszp now would be for the one design racing and the price. I even think that carrying the boat sideways into the water is easier than stuffing around with trolleys.

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itsjimmy

 

I think you miss a few things. You are lucky because you are somewhere that has second hand Mach 2's available, because in many places, they are as rare as rocking horse shit. Even then, a s/h Mach 2 is significantly more expensive than a new Waszp. The Waszp is also a far simpler boat, meaning that maintenance of the systems isn't such an effort as there is less to do, plus I suspect the key wand systems are more robust. I am also told that the whole boat is more robust.

 

I also believe that when buying a Waszp, there is an expectation of a certain level of support and help that is harder to get if you buy a s/h Moth. You might be OK if there are other Moths around, but for many, there are no other Moths around them.

 

Overall, I think you are a rare case, buying a Mach 2 instead of a Waszp. I suspect that there won't be too many who think it is an interchangeable decision. If the one design racing also kicks in, I think it will become even more clear cut. If a proper fleet develops near me, I think I will make the switch, because one design racing really appeals.

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Not all true Team.

1. Older SH Mach2s are available in at least UK, GBR and US at less money than a new Waszp. Bladeriders, Prowlers, Ninjas and others are a lot cheaper.

2. The Waszp is not really any simpler than a basic Mach2. Not all Mach2s have the extra controls and adjustments, The Waszp and the std M2 both have mainsheet, cunningham, outhaul, rudder/tiller pitch control winder, and pushrod winder. The Mach2 has a vang/kicker extra, but the Waszp has a rudder downhaul extra. So the count is much the same. Retractable wand is the most common M2 extra and will be the most missed by Waszp owners if sailing in any waves. Shroud and forestay adjustments are pretty rare.

3. Carbon does not corrode, aluminium does, especially when mixed with salt water and other metals. I wager that in 2 years corrosion of aluminium Waszp components will become an issue. My 4 YO Mach2 has never broken any std components, in 5 world regattas and 4 nationals, plus full seasons of club racing. You are told by the marketing blurb that the Waszp is more robust, but we will find out when a few boats get into demanding hands. Again I put my money on carbon being a lot stronger, than alloy and glass. The fold up wing mounts look to me to be a potential weak point after a few rough arrivals.

4. The KA shop has an excellent range of Mach2 components and they will do the same for the Waszp. No difference in availability. They are also good at instruction manuals.

5. Unless you group buy you will be just as solitary with your Waszp as you would be with a SH Moth. At least there are a experienced thousand mothies on the net who can provide advice.

 

The One Design mantra, and the price point are the real Waszp selling points. As a foiler it's already obsolete compared with a moth, as is other moth OD spinoffs past and will be in the future. Some buyers will be just joy riders, but not many. Most will be wanting some OD racing. AMAC is aiming at the youth market, there may be other options, now that the Olympic rings are in the air again. It will sell, but I doubt it will have any impact on the Moth class and its further development.

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Iam a mach2 owner and I had a test sail of the waszp. The conditions were far from ideal so I can only comment on a minimal experience.

It is far easier to low ride sail than a mach2 and watching people with no experience in foiling they looked very comfortable compaired to my memories on my first day.

It does not foil as early as a mach2 and that was frustrating. I did not witness anyone foil I only just managed to foil myself. Overall the window of foiling opportunities is narrower than a mach2.

Due to the OD nature I think there will be alot of low ride racing and this will be a component of training for people to master. Dont buy foling boats to low ride!

The effort required to learn to sail this boat will be not far different from a Mach2, I feel people are searching for a magical unicorn. Foiling isnt easy! it requires time, commitment, and more time. I would purchase a second hand moth over a new waszp. Although I may have a different opinion in 5 years time though.

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Not all true Team.

1. Older SH Mach2s are available in at least UK, GBR and US at less money than a new Waszp. Bladeriders, Prowlers, Ninjas and others are a lot cheaper.

 

 

It would be good if you read what I posted. I know that in the UK (which is the same as GBR :P ), USA and Aus boats are available, but I don't think those countries can be considered as "many" places. For the majority of the sailing world, there are no Moths for sale in their country.

 

I also checked before posting and i couldn't find any Mach 2's for sale in the UK cheaper than a new Waszp. While I know how robust the Mach 2 is, do you really think a 5-6 year old boat is as good as a new boat? I the USA, there is a 7 year old boat offered for more than a new waszp. I think you are also being rather misleading when you suggest boats like the Bladerider as an alternative. Old foilers are a total pain for all but the most dedicated. I thought the way to start in teh class was to buy an old Bladerider and I bought the best I could get. It was a big mistake and after 2 months, somebody lent me his Mach 2. Almost immediately, i knew I had made a mistake and I bought my first Mach 2 that week.

 

While I would also agree that a "standard" Mach 2 is not really any more complex than a waszp (kicker excluded), how many are available with such a low spec? Almost every boat you can buy s/h is more complex than that, so your comment is irrelevent.

 

As I tried to say, for many in the sailing world, the Waszp is a far better option than a Mach 2 or moth. If there is Moth sailing in your country, then you would probably go for the Moth. If you are in the UK or Oz, I think you should probably go for a Moth. If you are in the USA and reasonably near where there are moths sailing, go for the moth. For everybody else, I think the Waszp is a viable option that needs to be considered.

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Not all true Team.

1. Older SH Mach2s are available in at least UK, GBR and US at less money than a new Waszp. Bladeriders, Prowlers, Ninjas and others are a lot cheaper.

 

It would be good if you read what I posted. I know that in the UK (which is the same as GBR :P ), USA and Aus boats are available, but I don't think those countries can be considered as "many" places. For the majority of the sailing world, there are no Moths for sale in their country.

 

I also checked before posting and i couldn't find any Mach 2's for sale in the UK cheaper than a new Waszp. While I know how robust the Mach 2 is, do you really think a 5-6 year old boat is as good as a new boat? I the USA, there is a 7 year old boat offered for more than a new waszp. I think you are also being rather misleading when you suggest boats like the Bladerider as an alternative. Old foilers are a total pain for all but the most dedicated. I thought the way to start in teh class was to buy an old Bladerider and I bought the best I could get. It was a big mistake and after 2 months, somebody lent me his Mach 2. Almost immediately, i knew I had made a mistake and I bought my first Mach 2 that week.

 

While I would also agree that a "standard" Mach 2 is not really any more complex than a waszp (kicker excluded), how many are available with such a low spec? Almost every boat you can buy s/h is more complex than that, so your comment is irrelevent.

 

As I tried to say, for many in the sailing world, the Waszp is a far better option than a Mach 2 or moth. If there is Moth sailing in your country, then you would probably go for the Moth. If you are in the UK or Oz, I think you should probably go for a Moth. If you are in the USA and reasonably near where there are moths sailing, go for the moth. For everybody else, I think the Waszp is a viable option that needs to be considered.

Team_GBR, as the waszp and the Mach2 are made and sold by the same company, I can see zero difference in support coming from the company as you still get that support when getting a second hand boat shipped from its previous owner.

 

As I see it, the big difference is that you can actually fix your moth yourself, with the waszp you don't have that option as it will no longer meet the one design rules, which insist that even the stickers need to be replaced if removed.

 

So, don't take your sail to a sailmaker to get repaired when you rip it, gotta buy a new one. Ripped your wing tramps? New ones. Broken or bent foil, new one. Hope you are prepared to buy spares or you will have to wait for parts to be shipped internationally. If you get a moth, you can do that too, or you can pop your boat to a local boatbuilder for repairs.

 

Phil's complexity comment is not irrelevant, you can always take the new, more complex bits off and return it to factory spec, so it is relevant.

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Not all true Team.

3. Carbon does not corrode, aluminium does, especially when mixed with salt water and other metals. I wager that in 2 years corrosion of aluminium Waszp components will become an issue. My 4 YO Mach2 has never broken any std components, in 5 world regattas and 4 nationals, plus full seasons of club racing. You are told by the marketing blurb that the Waszp is more robust, but we will find out when a few boats get into demanding hands. Again I put my money on carbon being a lot stronger, than alloy and glass. The fold up wing mounts look to me to be a potential weak point after a few rough arrivals.

 

 

I'm not sure the waszp is really stronger than Mach2, but I hope so.In my view Amac in the last couple of years had something to improve about reliability, also because of the ever increasing loads that are being put on the boat (and this is also on of the reasons of the Mach 2.3). I don't want to bash a very good product which we all moth sailors owe a lot (basically the rebirth of the class) in any way, but certain things on some boats were not really as reliable as they should :)

 

More back on topic, I'm trying the waszp next week! looking forward to it.

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As he has stated it is meant to be a youth class, I'm sure AMAC sees the Waszp as a feeder to the Moth, not a threat. If you see it as a simple to sail alternative to the Moth for adults, you are seeing something that was not intended.

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The challenge is, as I see it ,that the emergence of the flying moth was pretty much made possible by using high tech materials. So if those are taken out of the equation, there will be fewer parameters to play with.

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