couchsurfer

....got stung by the 'WASZP'?..OD foiler...

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I have a Waszp (hull # 2162) available for sale for $8,000.00 USD. White hull, white tramps, black sail, internal bladders, wings out top cover and GRP box.
This boat is under 6 months old. Deal of the century! PM me if you're interested...

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54 minutes ago, teknologika said:

Is it just me or is the internet filled with for sale Waszp's that have been sailed less than 20 times, or are under 6 months old ?

It's not just you. The Waszp doesn't seem to be the panacea people thought it would be. There was an expectation that you were giving up the top end speed of the Moth for a cheap foiler that was significantly easier to sail. The reality seems to be that it is more difficult to sail than a lot of new owners expected. The ones I have seen sailing seem to spend even more time on their side than the Moths. 

I wonder how much easier you can make a boat than a Moth when you leave the size and configuration the same. When I look at the direction of others, such as the F101 or the UFO, you can clearly see why they would be more user friendly than the Moth/Waszp set up. Amac seems to have benefited from a  "first to market" advantage, plus the association with his past work. I wonder if it were to be released today, whether it would stack up against other offerings.

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

It's not just you. The Waszp doesn't seem to be the panacea people thought it would be. There was an expectation that you were giving up the top end speed of the Moth for a cheap foiler that was significantly easier to sail. The reality seems to be that it is more difficult to sail than a lot of new owners expected. The ones I have seen sailing seem to spend even more time on their side than the Moths. 

I wonder how much easier you can make a boat than a Moth when you leave the size and configuration the same. When I look at the direction of others, such as the F101 or the UFO, you can clearly see why they would be more user friendly than the Moth/Waszp set up. Amac seems to have benefited from a  "first to market" advantage, plus the association with his past work. I wonder if it were to be released today, whether it would stack up against other offerings.

Removing 'complications' wasn't the best idea in my opinion. Once you understand the systems that Moths currently have they make the boat way easier to sail. Adjustable length wand is the biggest one for me.

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15 hours ago, teknologika said:

Is it just me or is the internet filled with for sale Waszp's that have been sailed less than 20 times, or are under 6 months old ?

http://www.mothmart.com/foiling-moth/waszp-2262/

http://www.mothmart.com/foiling-moth/waszp-2045/

http://www.mothmart.com/foiling-moth/red-waszp-for-sale-newport-ri/

Actually, I love the boat! I have another on order. This boat has been sailed lots over the past 6 months, giving rides to friends, etc. Just ready for a new one :)

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8 hours ago, KenKaniff said:

Actually, I love the boat! I have another on order. This boat has been sailed lots over the past 6 months, giving rides to friends, etc. Just ready for a new one :)

A new one, after 6 months WTF???

I keep my moths for 5 years at a minimum.

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9 hours ago, KenKaniff said:

Actually, I love the boat! I have another on order. This boat has been sailed lots over the past 6 months, giving rides to friends, etc. Just ready for a new one :)

Build quality must be shit then. What a waste of money.

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On 25/07/2017 at 11:37 PM, teknologika said:

Is it just me or is the internet filled with for sale Waszp's that have been sailed less than 20 times, or are under 6 months old ?

http://www.mothmart.com/foiling-moth/waszp-2262/

http://www.mothmart.com/foiling-moth/waszp-2045/

http://www.mothmart.com/foiling-moth/red-waszp-for-sale-newport-ri/

They’ve shipped around 400 boats in the first year of production and there are currently 3 listed on mothmart.

I don’t know what the typical churn rate is on newly-purchased dinghies, but that doesn’t look to me like a mass exodus of disappointed buyers.

And there are 50 entries from a dozen countries in next week’s Waszp Games on Lake Garda, which suggests there are a few happy punters out there.

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On 26/07/2017 at 0:44 AM, Team_GBR said:

It's not just you. The Waszp doesn't seem to be the panacea people thought it would be. There was an expectation that you were giving up the top end speed of the Moth for a cheap foiler that was significantly easier to sail. The reality seems to be that it is more difficult to sail than a lot of new owners expected. The ones I have seen sailing seem to spend even more time on their side than the Moths. 

I wonder how much easier you can make a boat than a Moth when you leave the size and configuration the same. When I look at the direction of others, such as the F101 or the UFO, you can clearly see why they would be more user friendly than the Moth/Waszp set up. Amac seems to have benefited from a  "first to market" advantage, plus the association with his past work. I wonder if it were to be released today, whether it would stack up against other offerings.

How many people did expect the Waszp to be significantly easier to sail than a Moth? I certainly didn’t when I bought mine, and none of the other owners I’ve talked to had that expectation either. The perceived advantages over getting a Moth were: cost, one-design, simple set-up, robustness and absence of shrouds. I think those all still apply – if those things are important to you.

You’re right, of course, that there are more user-friendly platforms for foiling than a skinny monohull with no form stability, and I love what the Clarks have done with the UFO. They could well end up appealing to a much broader audience than the Waszp. But if you want to learn to foil today, those are the only alternatives to a Moth that are fully realised and available.

In a few years time I’m sure there will be a bunch of foilers fighting for market share, and most won’t be based on the Moth. I’d like to see the Waszp thrive among that competition, if only to validate my own choice, but regardless of that I’m looking forward to a few more years of challenge and reward with the boat I have.

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8 hours ago, SeanPurdy said:

You’re right, of course, that there are more user-friendly platforms for foiling than a skinny monohull with no form stability, and I love what the Clarks have done with the UFO. They could well end up appealing to a much broader audience than the Waszp. But if you want to learn to foil today, those are the only alternatives to a Moth that are fully realised and available.

You miss the boat I think will do the best in the UK, the F101, which I believe is now available. It comes at a price, but it will appeal to a lot of people. It is really easy to sail and I think it will produce close, quality racing, it has a build quality second to none and I expect the team behind it to organise a decent circuit. Everybody I know who has been for a sail says the same thing - this is the foiler they have been waiting for because from the start, you aren't going to look a complete beginner and exhaust yourself with lots of swimming while it is fast enough and challenging enough to retain interest. There is also a feeling that you won't need to sail non stop just to be able to get around the course in most conditions.. I would bet on it doing rather well in the next year or 2.

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The F101 was launched more then 4 years ago, it should have momentum by now. At twice the price of a Wazp it might be harder to sell.

I've seen a couple of Wazps around, the sailors seem to be doing fine.

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3 hours ago, RobG said:

The F101 was launched more then 4 years ago, it should have momentum by now. At twice the price of a Wazp it might be harder to sell.

I've seen a couple of Wazps around, the sailors seem to be doing fine.

There's something wrong with the dates on that website. The first prototype wasn't built until last year. The first public comment about the boat was in November and the official launch was in March this year and first deliveries were last month. I believe they have a pretty full order book, but what that really means, I have no idea!

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Just to show what other foilers are up against, the F101 was featured on mainstream British broadcasting news (BBC).

 

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12 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

You miss the boat I think will do the best in the UK, the F101, which I believe is now available. It comes at a price, but it will appeal to a lot of people. It is really easy to sail and I think it will produce close, quality racing, it has a build quality second to none and I expect the team behind it to organise a decent circuit. Everybody I know who has been for a sail says the same thing - this is the foiler they have been waiting for because from the start, you aren't going to look a complete beginner and exhaust yourself with lots of swimming while it is fast enough and challenging enough to retain interest. There is also a feeling that you won't need to sail non stop just to be able to get around the course in most conditions.. I would bet on it doing rather well in the next year or 2.

The F101 is a great looking boat and I’m sure it would be much easier to learn to sail and foil than a Moth or Waszp.

If it’s double the price of a Waszp then its target market is going to be significantly smaller – there are simply fewer people who can afford/justify £20k vs £10k (which is already a niche rather than mass audience). But they’re pitching it as very high tech and high quality where the Waszp is more mid-tech and production-built for volume.

It will be fascinating to see how many foiling boats make it to market in the next few years, and which area of the cost/performance/ease-of-use space they target. There should be room for several different types to appeal to different budgets, ability levels and aspirations. But clearly not all of them will thrive or survive.

Anyone who can get a boat through design and prototyping and into production has my admiration. Anyone who can turn that into a sustainable and profitable business deserves all the money they can make!

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Geography will also make a big difference to which boats end up being successful. With Waszp, UFO and F101 originating in Oz, USA and UK respectively you would expect their strongest early growth to be in domestic markets. Those that can quickly build an international customer base will probably do better in the long run, especially if they can get an events circuit going with World Sailing recognition etc. Less of a concern when your domestic market is the whole of America, of course.

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9 hours ago, SeanPurdy said:

The F101 is a great looking boat and I’m sure it would be much easier to learn to sail and foil than a Moth or Waszp.

 

If it’s double the price of a Waszp then its target market is going to be significantly smaller – there are simply fewer people who can afford/justify £20k vs £10k (which is already a niche rather than mass audience). But they’re pitching it as very high tech and high quality where the Waszp is more mid-tech and production-built for volume

I think you are defining target market as being far too narrow. price is only a small part of it. To me, the target market for the F101 is far bigger than the Waszp. The Waszp is difficult to sail, needs a degree of fitness and a fair amount of sailing experience. The F101 is completely different. You can actually teach people to sail on one but it still gives enough of a thrill for even the most experienced sailors. One of the things I have noticed is the number of top sailors who have never tried Moths but who are trying the F101 and loving it. These are sailors who do't want to go through the humbling experience that is Moth style foiling and haven't got the time to train to get good at it but have wanted to foil.

 I also believe you are mistaken about price point. While it is more expensive than a waszp or UFO, it is cheaper than a Moth or A Class, 2 classes that are selling in pretty good numbers. You are also only considering the traditional dinghy market. Think about all the people who buy keelboats that cost way more. With all the coverage, many would love to try foiling but the boats have been too hard.

I also believe there is a big market untapped outside of traditional sailing. When the DNA F1 A Class was launched, I am told that one of the surprises was the orders from unexpected sources such as 3 guys from Silicon valley who just wanted a toy to play around with their friends and thought the boat was the coolest thing they had seen. You can bring in non sailors, or people returning to the sport.

The F101 probably doesn't see the waszp as competition, because if it was relying on that market, it would lose. They are after a far wider market but I think the problem for the waszp is that the F101 is competition. Time will tell.

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14 hours ago, SeanPurdy said:

Less of a concern when your domestic market is the whole of America, of course.

If you really want to lose your lunch, consider that boats built in Rhode Island, where we build UFOs, are 100% tax-exempt. I probably don't know what I'm doing, though. So it's a wash.

DRC

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On 29/07/2017 at 2:31 AM, Dave Clark said:

If you really want to lose your lunch, consider that boats built in Rhode Island, where we build UFOs, are 100% tax-exempt. I probably don't know what I'm doing, though. So it's a wash.

I'm not quite sure how to read you here.

My comment that you quoted was just saying that a US-based manufacturer has the world's biggest economy as its domestic market, so international sales are less of a priority. There was nothing judgemental in that, just an observation that the business dynamics are different depending on where you're based.

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24 minutes ago, SeanPurdy said:

I'm not quite sure how to read you here.

My comment that you quoted was just saying that a US-based manufacturer has the world's biggest economy as its domestic market, so international sales are less of a priority. There was nothing judgemental in that, just an observation that the business dynamics are different depending on where you're based.

No, I was merely pointing out a further unfair advantage that comes from building ones boats in New England. I have no complaint at all with your observations, which are accurate.

DRC 

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On 6/24/2015 at 2:51 AM, ozchrisb said:

Is $12-15K really the point at which parents decide they'll go out and get one for their youth? They'll want to make sure that in 6 months time it doesn't get boring and they decide to move onto the next $12k hobby. Also, if that's so I need to have a lot more savings in the bank for when my daughter reaches that age. And are there really no $12k Mach 2's around? Moth's seem to be be $5k Bladeriders that everyone tells you to stay away from or $25K Mach 2's. So I get there's a middle ground, but I really question this "youth market" line.

I wouldn’t stay away from Bladeriders. The trick is getting a good X8 and then being prepared to upgrade the right bits (they need new foils as the mainfoil flap fails, and the rudder is too short) but apart from that they are a good solid club racing package.

if I build another boat, I will consider using one of them as the base to avoid having to build a new hull. 

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On 7/28/2017 at 3:04 PM, Team_GBR said:

There's something wrong with the dates on that website. The first prototype wasn't built until last year. The first public comment about the boat was in November and the official launch was in March this year and first deliveries were last month.

The interwebs have errors? Disaster… I'll accept your version as I've no first hand knowledge.

Regardless, the Wazp and F101 are as different as an IC and a Wetta. It's pointless to compare them on any level other than they're both sailing boats that foil.

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The wasp has a big event at Garda joins next week, and they have 50 entrants. They are working hard at the youth market which was the original target. If it gets kids foiling who might later get a moth I will be very happy.

The wasp was never meant to be a moth, it's a really bad moth. It's slow, heavy and not really any easier to sail. The boats which seem to be resold Quickly may well be older buyers who found out that they really were not agile enough for a wasp or a moth.  Young people will have a better chance.

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On 28/07/2017 at 6:43 PM, Team_GBR said:

Just to show what other foilers are up against, the F101 was featured on mainstream British broadcasting news (BBC).

 

TBH that doesn't actually look any easier than a Moth.

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5 hours ago, The Jay said:

TBH that doesn't actually look any easier than a Moth.

You don't think that a boat that is nearly impossible to capsize is easier than a Moth?:wacko:

They have actually taken total beginners who haven't sailed before out on the F101 and got them helming. I don't think you could do that with a Moth.

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It's just that considering what appeared to be very steady conditions and small waves, it appeared to be crashing a bit, and given higher winds it would seem reasonable that the crashes would end up worse. Having sailed a variety of small tris (HSP, Supernova, Tri Fli, Windrider and others) it's hard to see why the 101 is "impossible to capsize". The basic configuration doesn't look massively less capsizable than say a Supernova, given the higher speeds.

I haven't seen them take out a total beginner so I was only commenting on the information I have seen. It's not hard to believe it; in ideal conditions you can get just about anyone sailing just about anything for a little while with the right instruction.

Surely we have the right to remain unconvinced by advertising and promotional material don't we?

 

 

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I've sailed the F101. Nobody says it is impossible to capsize but you would need to do something pretty stupid. It is also very easy to get foiling. I suspect the reason why you see the crashes is because they are sailing in fairly light winds and they are 2 up. Although it is very forgiving, nothing changes physics and if you have the weight in the wrong place the boat simply continues climbing and the foils come out and you crash. When a Moth or Waszp crash like that, you swim. If you watch other videos such as the ones from Foiling Week, you will see just how easy it is compared with other foilers.

Try taking a beginner out in any other foiler. It's hard enough go 2 up in a Moth but to have a total novice on the helm, there is no way.

I have no connection to the F101, other than knowing the guys behind it. I wouldn't be buying one, but that is because of the direction I am going with my sailing. I would encourage people to try the boat. I would bet a lot of money on anybody who can get a Laser around a course being able to get foiling straight away and sail it without a capsize unless conditions are wild, in which case they probably won't let you try the boat. It is completely different from any other foiler I have sailed in terms of being user friendly. I think it is a bit of a breakthrough, but it comes at a price.

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It's always interesting to hear it from someone who has sailed one and not involved in selling them. I gad watched the Foiling Week vids, but with other foilers I've seen the difference between the way they perform in vids on Garda, and the way they perform in normal conditions so I was cautious. 

 

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16 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

I've sailed the F101. Nobody says it is impossible to capsize but you would need to do something pretty stupid. It is also very easy to get foiling. I suspect the reason why you see the crashes is because they are sailing in fairly light winds and they are 2 up. Although it is very forgiving, nothing changes physics and if you have the weight in the wrong place the boat simply continues climbing and the foils come out and you crash. When a Moth or Waszp crash like that, you swim. If you watch other videos such as the ones from Foiling Week, you will see just how easy it is compared with other foilers.

Try taking a beginner out in any other foiler. It's hard enough go 2 up in a Moth but to have a total novice on the helm, there is no way.

I have no connection to the F101, other than knowing the guys behind it. I wouldn't be buying one, but that is because of the direction I am going with my sailing. I would encourage people to try the boat. I would bet a lot of money on anybody who can get a Laser around a course being able to get foiling straight away and sail it without a capsize unless conditions are wild, in which case they probably won't let you try the boat. It is completely different from any other foiler I have sailed in terms of being user friendly. I think it is a bit of a breakthrough, but it comes at a price.

Interesting. This has been my experience on the A to date. Very forgiving in reality as you have two hulls to provide stability. Fast it is, fragile it is not and the number of tweaky bits are fairly low IMO. The other thing is the A has stable racing fleets, a solid used marketplace and it isn't going anywhere. It isn't a Wazp though and closer to a Moth in price so it probably won't appeal to many. I really do wish the Wazp continued success as I do think it is a good gateway drug for youth sailors and we could use more of those!!

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7 hours ago, Phil S said:

Yes the Wazsp has 50 boats on Lake Garda this week, how many has the F101 got?

Success is about sales.

 

While you are right that success is about sales, I don't see how you can compare a boat that has been delivering to punters for over a year and one that has been delivering customer boats for a month. There is no surprise that the Waszp has sold so many so fast. At the time people were placing orders, there was no alternative. Now we have the UFO from the USA which i hear is selling like hot cakes.You have the F101 in the UK and you have all sorts of cats. There is room for all of them for now, but I question what the Waszp offers that isn't better offered by others. It doesn't lead in the ease of sailing stakes and it doesn't lead in the price stakes. In the current market, I am not sure what it offers compared with the other choices other than numbers sold to date. With those boats scattered around the world, there isn't yet an advantage due to fleets being established. it seems to me that the whole game is still up for grabs

If you were in the USA at the moment, why would you order a Waszp over a UFO?

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On 03/08/2017 at 10:29 AM, Team_GBR said:

While you are right that success is about sales, I don't see how you can compare a boat that has been delivering to punters for over a year and one that has been delivering customer boats for a month. There is no surprise that the Waszp has sold so many so fast. At the time people were placing orders, there was no alternative. Now we have the UFO from the USA which i hear is selling like hot cakes.You have the F101 in the UK and you have all sorts of cats. There is room for all of them for now, but I question what the Waszp offers that isn't better offered by others. It doesn't lead in the ease of sailing stakes and it doesn't lead in the price stakes. In the current market, I am not sure what it offers compared with the other choices other than numbers sold to date. With those boats scattered around the world, there isn't yet an advantage due to fleets being established. it seems to me that the whole game is still up for grabs

If you were in the USA at the moment, why would you order a Waszp over a UFO?

1) Proven design

2) Foiling tacks and jibes

3) fleets with top sailors

 

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I wonder if we'll see one being used as a stepping stone to the other...  (I.e. start in a UFO, or F101, then later move to the Moth)

One of the things that I find most appealing about the UFO is that it's probably a better trainer for learning to foil.  A friend of mine picked up a blade rider a few years ago, and though he has a solid skiff background, his fitness (or lack thereof) prevented him from getting long enough sessions in on the Moth to really get a hang of it; though he claims to have gotten it up on foils, no one I know ever saw it.  The UFO sounds as though it's more forgiving in the transitions, thus allowing more time spent learning to foil.

Once you master foiling in the UFO, some may find that they're ready for the next step, which could be a Moth.  In the meanwhile, with most of the sailing population not having the basics of foiling down, the UFO would seem the logical first step.

 

 

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I think the Waszp and F101 are aimed at very different markets. Take me as an example. I can foil an A reasonably well, but when I tried a Waszp, I was simply too slow and not fit enough and spent too much time swimming which led to me being too tired to continue after a far too short period. I blame age, although I do realise that there are ways around that. If I was prepared to spend my spare time getting fit enough and sailing lots. That's not what I want. On the A, while I will never be as fast as the top guys, I can at least get around a course in most conditions. I see the F101 as being more like the A than a Moth or Waszp. If the A's weren't strong here, it would be exactly the sort of boat I would want. I don't mind if i cannot foil tack or gybe ( can't the F101 do them?) because not being able to do them hasn't changed my experience of sailing the A.

There is room in the market for a number of different foiling boats. Discussing which is best or which will survive at the expense of others seems futile. It's like arguing which asymmetric carrying boat is best and will be preferred by the market. This is not a battle to see which single foiler will dominate the market. Look at the diversity in the marketplace already. Some boats will nit survive because they simply aren't good enough or don't address a need. At the moment, the waszp has enjoyed an advantage of being first to market of the cheaper one design foilers. Is that enough to sustain it? the market will decide, but if it does survive, I would be very surprised if it was the only one in that part if the market

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5 hours ago, Matt D said:

I wonder if we'll see one being used as a stepping stone to the other...  (I.e. start in a UFO, or F101, then later move to the Moth)

One of the things that I find most appealing about the UFO is that it's probably a better trainer for learning to foil.  A friend of mine picked up a blade rider a few years ago, and though he has a solid skiff background, his fitness (or lack thereof) prevented him from getting long enough sessions in on the Moth to really get a hang of it; though he claims to have gotten it up on foils, no one I know ever saw it.  The UFO sounds as though it's more forgiving in the transitions, thus allowing more time spent learning to foil.

Once you master foiling in the UFO, some may find that they're ready for the next step, which could be a Moth.  In the meanwhile, with most of the sailing population not having the basics of foiling down, the UFO would seem the logical first step.

 

 

name of Doug??  

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The Waszp international Games (whatever that means!) has just finished and I noticed one thing they published with the results each day, the top speed. For the whole week, that was 21.8 knots. While some might see that as rather disappointing, I see that as a huge plus. Although you get used to fast speeds, anything faster than that on a Moth configuration is getting into the scary category. The difference between, say, 22 and 24 knots feels a lot more than the 10% increase it really is and that goes on as you get faster. For a boat like this, having limited speeds seems to me to be a really good thing as people can concentrate on learning to sail/foil really well.

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18 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Waszp international Games (whatever that means!)

I think it's just a placeholder for "Worlds" which they can't use until they get ISAF class recognition.

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On 8/4/2017 at 7:56 PM, FishAintBiting said:

name of Doug??  

Lol.  I don't think Doug 17 has ever tried a moth. 

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On 7/26/2017 at 0:37 AM, teknologika said:

Is it just me or is the internet filled with for sale Waszp's that have been sailed less than 20 times, or are under 6 months old ?

http://www.mothmart.com/foiling-moth/waszp-2262/

http://www.mothmart.com/foiling-moth/waszp-2045/

http://www.mothmart.com/foiling-moth/red-waszp-for-sale-newport-ri/

I sold mine (one of the above) and have bought a used Mach2. The Waszp sold immediately, I think the Waszp has good momentum in the youth category.

Where I sail the launch/retrieve from a short concrete ramp was a mess, and light wind evenings with 7-9knots of wind and Moths foiling all around while Waszps were lowriding were the deciding factors. Had I been living near a beach with sea breeze I would still have the Waszp, cool and very FUN boat! :-)

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14 hours ago, luftspringaren said:

Where I sail the launch/retrieve from a short concrete ramp was a mess, and light wind evenings with 7-9knots of wind and Moths foiling all around while Waszps were lowriding were the deciding factors. Had I been living near a beach with sea breeze I would still have the Waszp, cool and very FUN boat! :-)

Interesting comments, I have a few questions. How much breeze does it take for foiling? There are a few near where I sail and they seem to get up in 7-8kn (salt water), do you think it was technique or the boat?

Has anyone fitted an adjustable wand for club sailing (not class legal but why not when it doesn't matter)? Can they be setup for higher ride height in light weather (lengthen a pushrod somewhere)?

How are the alloy foils holding up? Is corrosion or abrasive wear in the hinge an issue?

What's the issue with launch and retrieve? In low–rider days, I'd wheel it into about knee–deep water, capsize it, fit the foils then float it beyond foil depth before righting. Pretty much the reverse for retrieval. Doesn't that method work for a Wazp?

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Regarding waszp take-off speed, my take is 2 knots more than a moth with medium/big foils, all other things equal. so I guess 9-10 knots for an 80kg person. maybe 8 for smaller guys. I was confortably flying in 10 knots (I'm 65), and probably could have flown in a little less wind.

There is definitely though a condition when moths are flying and waszps are not. So big guys who don't want to race IMHO could seriously think about getting the big waszp mainfoil.

 

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On 8/24/2017 at 5:28 AM, RobG said:

Interesting comments, I have a few questions. How much breeze does it take for foiling? There are a few near where I sail and they seem to get up in 7-8kn (salt water), do you think it was technique or the boat?

Has anyone fitted an adjustable wand for club sailing (not class legal but why not when it doesn't matter)? Can they be setup for higher ride height in light weather (lengthen a pushrod somewhere)?

How are the alloy foils holding up? Is corrosion or abrasive wear in the hinge an issue?

What's the issue with launch and retrieve? In low–rider days, I'd wheel it into about knee–deep water, capsize it, fit the foils then float it beyond foil depth before righting. Pretty much the reverse for retrieval. Doesn't that method work for a Wazp?

I'd think you need 9-10knots to fly the Waszp (not sure of the saline percentage in the Baltic...) at least as a beginner

Alloy foils holding up very well!  - no aging or problems at all! (again Baltic may be different to Atlantic), some signs of age on gantry, flaking paint, but only cosmetic.

Launch was fine except big waves and big onshore wind, but I guess a Moth will have the same risks then. Retrieve was hard because it was too deep to stand at ramp end, I had to capsize the boat close to ramp, swim in, fit trolley with the boat on its side while standing on ramp edge, and then right the boat onto ramp, the wings always got chafed against the sharp edge of  the concrete ramp, with onshore waves and big wind it was problematic. But with a beach where you can wheel it in and out - no problem! Had I been living near a beach with sea breeze I would still have the Waszp, cool and very FUN boat! :-)

 

 

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I've not sailed a waszp, but several times I have watchwd people launching them. I make no comment about how they sail but they do seem to take a long time get started.

It seems to take up to 10 minutes to roll the boat into he water, then get it off the trolley, either get someone to hold it or take the trolley away, try to get the foils down, and usually in the last two steps the boat capsizes, after which they need to swim the boat out to deep waterbefore righting it. It seems to ocupy the ramp for so long it get frustrating for the other people waiting to launch. Any attempts I have observed to get on the boat with the foils up has ended in capsize and reversion to previous procedure.

Lifting a moth into the water fully rigged seems like a much simpler and quicker option.

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6 hours ago, Phil S said:

I've not sailed a waszp, but several times I have watchwd people launching them. I make no comment about how they sail but they do seem to take a long time get started.

It seems to take up to 10 minutes to roll the boat into he water, then get it off the trolley, either get someone to hold it or take the trolley away, try to get the foils down, and usually in the last two steps the boat capsizes, after which they need to swim the boat out to deep waterbefore righting it. It seems to ocupy the ramp for so long it get frustrating for the other people waiting to launch. Any attempts I have observed to get on the boat with the foils up has ended in capsize and reversion to previous procedure.

Lifting a moth into the water fully rigged seems like a much simpler and quicker option.

Minimum weight in the WASZP rules is TBA but it's probably what, 45kg? Heavy, and I doubt it balances evenly if you carry it on its side with the light/minimal rig and heavy foils... Difficult to carry, difficult to launch like a regular dinghy. Launching situation isn't great by the sound of it.

Owners, is launching solo genuinely easy like Amac promised?

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11 hours ago, Phil S said:

I've not sailed a waszp, but several times I have watchwd people launching them. I make no comment about how they sail but they do seem to take a long time get started.

It seems to take up to 10 minutes to roll the boat into he water, then get it off the trolley, either get someone to hold it or take the trolley away, try to get the foils down, and usually in the last two steps the boat capsizes, after which they need to swim the boat out to deep waterbefore righting it. It seems to ocupy the ramp for so long it get frustrating for the other people waiting to launch. Any attempts I have observed to get on the boat with the foils up has ended in capsize and reversion to previous procedure.

Lifting a moth into the water fully rigged seems like a much simpler and quicker option.

I think that is the nature of camber induced sails, they are always powered up, even if the wind is on the leeward side of the sail.

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On 8/26/2017 at 7:01 PM, Phil S said:

It seems to ocupy the ramp for so long it get frustrating for the other people waiting to launch.

You've been spoiled Phil, Moths are pretty quick to launch if the operator knows what they're doing. Go launch at an all-boats or mixed fleet club with lots of juniors and boats with multiple crew… ;-)

 

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Can any Waszp owners provide length and width of the boat and trolley package? I'm interested to know if it is something that would fit into the bed of a Toyota Tacoma.

Thanks in advance!

Brian

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16 hours ago, Bcparfitt said:

Can any Waszp owners provide length and width of the boat and trolley package? I'm interested to know if it is something that would fit into the bed of a Toyota Tacoma.

Thanks in advance!

Brian

http://www.waszp.com/the-boat

GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS

  • Length: 3.35m
  • Width Packed: 43cm
  • Width Folded: 1m
  • Width Sailing: 2.25m
  • Draft launching: 20cm
  • Draft ‘low riding’: 1m
  • Draft foiling: You choose!
  • Overall weight: 48 kilos fully rigged with foils
  • Minimum foiling cruise wind speed: 5 knots
  • Minimum lift off wind speed: 7 knots
  • Top speed: 24 knots+

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just received this from the kind waszp folks.59b298110f129_wazpfoilerdimensions.jpg.ab5e83fe49304c73933c20ff530868e9.jpg

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On 8/26/2017 at 4:34 PM, BR3232 said:

Owners, is launching solo genuinely easy like Amac promised?

I trolley the boat into the water then flip it over onto one of the wings, remove the trolley, put the foils down with the boat on its side, float/lift it out to deeper water, right it and sail off. I haven’t timed it but I reckon it’s well under five minutes and easily done without assistance.

The moth approach of getting the foils rigged then carrying it in is a non-starter for me, because the boat’s around 50kg, there’s no balance point to put a shoulder under, and I’m a skinny weakling.

I haven’t bothered with the advertised “put the foils down while sailing the boat” approach because I Iaunch into quite a confined area and need some proper control to get out into clear water. Plus it looks like an invitation to capsize.

So I use a kind of waszp/moth hybrid technique – and I don’t think it’s earned me a reputation as a ramp hog.

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SeanPurdy - What do you do with the trolley after you remove it from the boat? I've thought about rigging up a stake with small block and retrieval line so I could pull the trolley up onto the beach from the water while solo. I could then toss the retrieval line back onto the beach from where I was in the water.

I may be overthinking that though. May only be necessary on windier days with some waves.

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Bcparfitt - I usually launch off a concrete ramp at a sailing club so just put the trolley out of the way up the ramp. The boat is fine left on its side with the wing bar on the seabed and only some of the weight taken by buoyancy - probably waste deep water. That means it stays put when you take the trolley away but is easy to lift/drag into deeper water once the foils are down. Just reverse this on return, making sure to capsize in deep enough water to not bash the foils, and then drag/lift into shallower water to sit it on the wing bar while you collect the trolley.

I don't have to contend with onshore waves, which would make it a bit more challenging. But I have come ashore at another venue in a fresh onshore breeze and waves onto a steepish (and slippery) concrete reservoir ramp. It was hard work but I managed it solo with a bit of grunt and swearing.

Also, if it's breezy I make sure to lay it over so the main will stay in the water and not get wind under it and flip it upright. So the main needs to be on the downward side of the raised main foil and with battens popped towards the water (if that makes sense). You can always lay the trolley across the sail to keep it down while fixing the foils, though I haven't had to do this.

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Any other user updates / reviews from folks? Getting ready to order mine for summer 2018 on Lake Erie. First on Lake Erie, maybe? Would love a few more reviews to read!!

 

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On 23/11/2017 at 8:31 PM, acroglia said:

Any other user updates / reviews from folks? Getting ready to order mine for summer 2018 on Lake Erie. First on Lake Erie, maybe? Would love a few more reviews to read!!

 

Not an owner, but had the chance to spend some time with a Waszp.

Killer boat, never even considered buying a moth as I have no interest in the arms race, happy to sacrifice speed for the 1D nature of the boat.

Super weird moving from being a multi sailor and not really a dinghy sailor (14' cats, F18's T-cats, 24' tri's and 32' cats) and keelboats.

Helming was a bit tough (haven't been on the stick end in 2 years), but after half and hour was pretty honed in (wasn't too much to adjust to). 

Main sheet was just fucked up light, I honestly couldn't believe how light the sheet load was, I felt like I almost couldn't let it out/pull it in fast enough, that took a little to adjust to (maybe not a bad thing though as I expected it to be a lot more physical than it was).

Boat seemed really nice to rig up, definitely a few kinks to sort out (a couple of pins stick out awkwardly and can catch things, and a pocket/gap was in exactly the right spot to stick the tiller end...) but it was nice and fast to be on the water (think like Hobie 16 quick).

Tacks and Gybes were miserable my my accord (I've never sucked so hard, that'll be a fun learning curve).

Boat was surprisingly comfortable, except for the toe straps, seriously WEAR BOOTS or just replace them, the factory straps are heinous, my feet looked like a paint by numbers (as I prefer barefoot sailing). It really didn't seem so physical, a little flexibility needed, and willingness to swim and take a few hits, but nothing too hard.

Took 5 mins to foil, 30 mins to be consistently foiling (no good manoeuvres though), I wish a knew a few pointers like... literally only sail the boat with WW heal, do not let it fly to leeward, don't hike to hard and play the sheet with the utmost attention. But the WW heal was hard for me to grasp at first >.< but I got there pretty quick and had a blast, 10/10 will do it again. Unsure about long term ownership myself as I do find I prefer 2 man sailing to solo. Could definitely spend a month sailing everyday with a group of people and then do a big event, that would be 11/10! 

Some of the most fun I've had sailing whilst also being not that great.

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On 11/23/2017 at 7:31 AM, acroglia said:

Any other user updates / reviews from folks? Getting ready to order mine for summer 2018 on Lake Erie. First on Lake Erie, maybe? Would love a few more reviews to read!!

 

I am also looking at a boat for 2018 on Lake Erie. Where would you be sailing out of?

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I had the chance to properly sail one toda for a coyple of hours.

I am pleased to say that if felt way better than what I remebered from last year. Everything works smoothly and boat is enjoyable. End of 2017 improvements also make wingbars feel a bit more stiff.

It is not much harder to foil gybe than a moth and takeoff at my weight (65kg) is pretty good. If I were a heavy guy who does not race I would definitely go for the big foil though.

Only thing which I really did not like is that the rudder has waaaaaaay to much lift; it felt like going back to the bladerider days, with insane ventilations in cold water and with huge adjustments needed shen bearing away.

Overall it was pretty fun

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Hi,

I have a bit odd question. I have to add bvladdes to my moth and would like to know how the Waszp bladder pockets are done. I looked at the assembly instructions and did not found the information.

Is the bladder in the same "pocket" as the wing side tube, or in a dedicated pocket ?

From where do you introduce the bladder ?

Is the pocket open to the back, toward the tramp lashing ?

From where do you inflate the bladder ?

Is it easy to install the bladder in the pocket ?

I have real issues about too low side floatation and really need to improve this.

Best regards,

JM

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3 hours ago, 669 said:

There are a set of trampolines and bladders called cruiser wing tramps and bladders these increase flotation markedly.  

Check out the waszp shop for info;

https://www.kasail.com/waszp/view/2089

WZWTPJB - Junior Bladder part #

Thanks for the reply.

Maybe my question wasn't clear enough. I don't want to buy Waszp tramps. I want to modify my old ones on my Ninja Moth. Waszp tramps seem well engineered and optimized as of fabrication. I looked for inspiration for my design and I have no Waszp nearby.

JMF

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Bladders are in a dedicated pocket. WASZP's have 3 types, internal, external and cruiser. 

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Thanks for the confirmation about separate pockets. I was interested by the internal model design.

Best regards,

JMF

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