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jukka

Garmin getting serious about racing?

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They've just introduced a couple of large mast instrument displays that plug straight into NMEA2000 network.

 

Only thing I wonder is if there's going to be some new NMEA2000 PGNs that allow us to get custom channels from Expedition to the displays.

 

GNX™ 130 10-inch Large Format Marine Instrument

cf-lg.jpg

 

GNX™ 120 7-inch Large Format Marine Instrument

rf-lg.jpg

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Custom pgns would have to be a collaborative effort of garmin and expedition if you want extra data moving around.

 

And from what i've been told, garmin isn't doing themselves any favours with their customer support or dealer network

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Custom pgns would have to be a collaborative effort of garmin and expedition if you want extra data moving around.

 

Yes, naturally Expedition would need to support the custom messages too, but they've been pretty quick to get this sort of things done if the support exists in the hardware.

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what about hacking the displays so that they take the "expedition" data format?

 

With Nick's reaction time, I don't know that the need is really there. By the time it was worked around, he would likely already have a native Garmin format solution in place.

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what about hacking the displays so that they take the "expedition" data format?

 

With Nick's reaction time, I don't know that the need is really there. By the time it was worked around, he would likely already have a native Garmin format solution in place.

 

it's garmin's reaction time that concerns me..., not nick's

 

seems like to add custom pgn's, like next leg TWA for example, you would need garmin to help out too - and both garmin and nick would have to agree on what the pgn's are

 

i actually don't have a clue about what's involved in making a custom pgn, but i could come up with 10 or so that i would want pretty easily, and i'm sure if you asked around the number would get to 20 pretty quickly.

 

i guess i thought that the ability to customize NMEA 2000 is pretty limited - is that not the case?

 

can a manufacturer just add as many custom pgn's as they want?

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i guess i thought that the ability to customize NMEA 2000 is pretty limited - is that not the case?

 

can a manufacturer just add as many custom pgn's as they want?

 

Yes, the NMEA2000 standard includes a provision for manufacturers to send proprietary messages on the network. Garmin for instance has implemented firmware upgrades for their devices over the network with these.

 

The proper way of course would be to define the racing specific data as standard PGNs, so that they would be interoperable between devices form different vendors, but that would probably take really long time if it were to happen at all.

 

I guess the simplest way would be to have a "custom display data channel" message with a numeric value, name for the channel and perhaps unit. This data would be meant for displays only, and not machine readable, so no real need to model it into 20 different PGNs.

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Hello,
I've been talking to Garmin/Nexus about these displays for a while now. They do look nice.
Regarding the custom data channels, they are on NMEA 2000, but Garmin isn't particularly keen on making the proprietary PGNs available. Maybe a lot of user and reseller feedback might help, but I don't really know.

I think the old FDX server is on the way out and the 'recommended' solution is to use the GND10 box to get data to & from Exp.

Of course, an Actisense NGT-1 solution would be a lot tidier, but time will tell whether that becomes a viable option.

Nick

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yet another reason to just not use garmin.

 

i don't get how a pgn that is supposed to be certified by nmea can remain proprietary. wasn't the whole idea behind the system supposed to be openness?

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We tried using the GND10 to get data in and out of Expedition without much luck. Were told we had to go from the GND10 through a computer running Nexus Race software and then via 0813 to Expedition. So went with the NGT-1 and all works good.

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Two sources on the Panbo blog are confirming that there will be 10 custom channels available. The required setup is to have the Nexus interface box (GND10) and the navigation software talking the old Nexus FDX protocol to it. A little less than ideal...

 

Reverse-engineering the actual NMEA2000 messages that the GND10 box converts the FDX into should be trivial. I think I'll do it out of curiosity when I get my hands on the hardware - unless someone beats me to it. Implementing it it into Expedition from reverse engineered specs against Garmin's wishes is probably something Nick doesn't want to do... Let's hope Garmin comes into their senses and publishes specs for the native NMEA2000 PGNs.

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Well I am going to ditch my Garmin as soon as I can. I've been a long time customer (12, 12XL, 48, 215, Nuvi, 3206, etc.). I just recently learned from Garmin that they are dropping all chart updates for all products that use the proprietary data card. WTF? My unit was bought new about 5 yrs ago and is now effectively rendered obsolete since I can no longer get any chart updates. I work in a manufacturing environment and fully understand the need to obsolete products and the cost of long time support, but killing off a whole lot of devices just because THEY chose to use and expensive proprietary data card format which they do not want to support any longer is shortsighted in my opinion and has really turned me off to the company.

 

And the response I got from them was basically "tough luck". 5 years in the life of a chartplotter does not seem like an outlandish life cycle to me.

 

I've spent a small fortune with them keeping my charts up to date and buying and recommending their products. No more.

 

Just had to rant for a minute, they may be allegedly "getting serious" about racing but not for me they won't be. They stories of their new disregard for their customers is entirely true.

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The head line “Garmin getting serious about racing?”

 

Their new large mast instruments look good, that is not the point. Can you take Garmin seriously?

 

I am a Nexus customer. I sadly replaced all my instruments with Nexus NX2 just weeks before Garmin took over. All Nexus stuff is now redundant. It has taken me nine months to get a replace log transducer. Nine months to get a replacement transducer that is just out of warranty! Looking at Garmin’s current offering you can see that their wind transducer and the wireless solution are Nexus or based on Nexus. The rest is redundant. Many considered Nexus Marine the second best for racing, with a reduced price tag compared with B&G.

 

Let’s ask the questions again: Can you take Garmin seriously? Will you trust Garmin with more of your hard-earned money? You must be joking! I will not spend a penny on any product with a Garmin brand!

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with stand alone hiking style gps sales tanking, they'd better take a look at improving their other revenue streams. like marine instrumentation. or sell it off to a company that cares

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I am in the same boat as Mogle -- I confirmed my order for a full NXR system just one month before Garmin bought out Nexus, after some due diligence on the Nexus system. Back then Nexus had lots of tail wind. The one weak point was the autopilot, but discussing with the Nexus folks back then, I was told that an AP head based on the NXR Multi was at a fairly advanced stage. Garmin canned this when they bought Nexus.

 

It will take much more than a couple of decent instruments to convince me to put more money into a Garmin / Nexus system:

 

* Most of us dont buy random instruments, we buy into a system. Garmin has yet to explain how these instruments fit into a comprehensive system including CPU, instruments, sensors, autopilot. I would like to see the whole picture. Along the way, they should sponsor a race boat and fit them out from head to toe with their systems in order to prove it up (like Nexus with Georgia). Garmin seems to understand what a system means for powerboats (glass helm with Volvo Penta), can they do the same with sailing?

 

* When we buy a system, we effectively make an investment decision for the 5-7 years ahead, meaning that we are going to live with new products in the range, software upgrages, after sales service, etc. To win me on this one, I'd like to see Garmin formulate their vision and commitment to the GNX product line over the next 5-10 years. Ideally whomever is in charge of GNX at Garmin should come out and engage the community, explain his vision, explain what internal resources he has at his disposal to make it happen, and take feedback from the community

 

* When it comes to the GNX 120 / 130 instruments, they do look nice but I wonder about the buttons -- I dont have a need for buttons on mast instruments, and I certainly have no need for additional failure points in my system. What is the thinking?

 

It's good news to see that there is still some life in Garmin / Nexus, they need to do much more to win me back as a customer. In the meantime, it's going to be wait and see for me.

 

Take care all

 

Nicolas

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Two sources on the Panbo blog are confirming that there will be 10 custom channels available. The required setup is to have the Nexus interface box (GND10) and the navigation software talking the old Nexus FDX protocol to it. A little less than ideal...

 

Reverse-engineering the actual NMEA2000 messages that the GND10 box converts the FDX into should be trivial. I think I'll do it out of curiosity when I get my hands on the hardware - unless someone beats me to it. Implementing it it into Expedition from reverse engineered specs against Garmin's wishes is probably something Nick doesn't want to do... Let's hope Garmin comes into their senses and publishes specs for the native NMEA2000 PGNs.

 

So I wen't ahead and bought a GND10 box to give it a try and perhaps capture the mythical proprietary PGNs on the NMEA2000 network side. Turns out that by itself, the box does nothing - it requires a Nexus FDX server on the Nexus bus. This is not making sense at all - to get the custom channels I would need to have a GND10 and a Nexus FDX server in the boat even if there were no legacy Nexus instruments or sensors at all.

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Interesting observation.

 

Once again, can we trust Garmin?

 

The new mast displays are looking really good. I like the fact that the display can show more than one piece of information. Nexus started had this functionality on their NX2 mast displays. For this to work, you needed a Nexus Server. Big and bountiful was their marketing statement. If the new Garmin display only works when you got a Nexus NX2 Server tells me that these displays are based on Nexus. Some of us speculated that Garmin wanted Nexus due to the wireless windless for NX and the mast displays for NX2. It sounds like the prediction was correct.

 

To get the new Garmin Display to work you will then need a Nexus NX2 server (only NMEA 1800) and Garmin’s Black Box that acts like a hub between NMEA 1800 and NME2000.

 

Well done Garmin! I can see you got a long-term plan with your product portfolio is working out for you. Your product testing are excellent! New and old customers are getting high quality products.

 

Not you say! Spend your money elsewhere...

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Ok so senta garmin has hit the bottom of the barrel and nexus got bought up where do you turn?

Sailmon, b&g? Ockum is about out to fall apart.

Who else is out there?

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Ok so senta garmin has hit the bottom of the barrel and nexus got bought up where do you turn?Sailmon, b&g? Ockum is about out to fall apart.Who else is out there?

My short list was B&G or Nexus. Looking back I sadly picked Nexus.

 

Back then Nexus was the only good and complete alternative. They had a good product. Unfortunately Nexus was a easy and small purchase for Garmin. Some had expectations that they would improve the range by investing in R&D. They just terminated the product line and let the existing Nexus customers out for dry. Even when under warranty it was almost impossible to get parts. Now out of warranty just forget it.

 

So B&G it is! An alternative would have been good. Garmin - well done!

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mast instruments on nmea2000??, You gunna want the most expensive top quality connectors money can buy.

Other than all the other drama we have with boat instruments now you have created a single point failure by going nmea 2000, any break anywhere and it all stops.

Tell me they are going to use the dual networked nmea 2000 spec (that does actually exist to overcome this issue?)

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So B&G it is! An alternative would have been good. Garmin - well done!

 

 

I think that NKE offers a more than good alternative...

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So B&G it is! An alternative would have been good. Garmin - well done!

 

I think that NKE offers a more than good alternative...

Good alternative. My upgrade to B&G is already in progress.

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mast instruments on nmea2000???)

I cannot comment on that. Jukka can you?

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Use a bridge to isolate the segments.

 

One example here ... http://www.marinco.com/en/80-911-0057-00

 

 

mast instruments on nmea2000??, You gunna want the most expensive top quality connectors money can buy.

Other than all the other drama we have with boat instruments now you have created a single point failure by going nmea 2000, any break anywhere and it all stops.

Tell me they are going to use the dual networked nmea 2000 spec (that does actually exist to overcome this issue?)

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My B&G Tritons are pretty tolerant of bad termination, so I don't think the mast instruments are necessarily an issue. When I was installing I played around disconnecting parts of the backbone and it worked pretty much like I though it would, so if the backbone side that has power, still worked if you just yanked others. YMMV, but the whole thing didn't just stop.

 

And if you are really worried, do what WoobaGooba says and get a bridge..

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My B&G Tritons are pretty tolerant of bad termination, so I don't think the mast instruments are necessarily an issue. When I was installing I played around disconnecting parts of the backbone and it worked pretty much like I though it would, so if the backbone side that has power, still worked if you just yanked others. YMMV, but the whole thing didn't just stop.

 

And if you are really worried, do what WoobaGooba says and get a bridge..

 

Just be careful you have terminators at both ends of your backbone.

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Looks like from the Panbo thread, Garmin are going to open up the 10 data items through a single sentence, to Expedition et.al.

 

Looking at it, combining the new mast screens, their super low power smaller screens, remote keypads and the Quatix watch, they might just be getting to a sensible eco system.

 

Certainly the Quatix watch might look like a bit of a gem if that will also show those data items.

 

Still a little overpriced perhaps.

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Looks like from the Panbo thread, Garmin are going to open up the 10 data items through a single sentence, to Expedition et.al.

 

Looking at it, combining the new mast screens, their super low power smaller screens, remote keypads and the Quatix watch, they might just be getting to a sensible eco system.

 

Certainly the Quatix watch might look like a bit of a gem if that will also show those data items.

 

Still a little overpriced perhaps.

 

 

i went and looked at the panbo thread

 

i don't know much about N2K...

 

what will those "10 data items" be?

 

is that something fixed by garmin.., or can nick decide what they are.., or maybe the expedition user,,,?

 

this could be a big plus for garmin

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another question - does this mean that the other smaller displays - the 4 inch displays - will display the custom pgn's?

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I think it shows there's probably no technical reason why they couldn't - only if Garmin decide for commercial reasons that they don't want them to.

If they could but won't then that's probably quite telling of whether Garmin are 'serious about racing', which was, after all, the essay question.

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I think it shows there's probably no technical reason why they couldn't - only if Garmin decide for commercial reasons that they don't want them to.

If they could but won't then that's probably quite telling of whether Garmin are 'serious about racing', which was, after all, the essay question.

Looking at their actions, marketing, how their products perform, how their sales staff present their product it is clear Garmin is not serious about racing. Garmin is a no go product if you got racing ambition within sailing.

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I think it shows there's probably no technical reason why they couldn't - only if Garmin decide for commercial reasons that they don't want them to.

If they could but won't then that's probably quite telling of whether Garmin are 'serious about racing', which was, after all, the essay question.

Looking at their actions, marketing, how their products perform, how their sales staff present their product it is clear Garmin is not serious about racing. Garmin is a no go product if you got racing ambition within sailing.

 

 

 

i think that's a little bit strong

 

garmin is as good as entry level triton B&G

 

and now.., if i can send targets to displays w garmin.., that's something that you can't do w triton, as far as i know...

 

and i have plenty of horror stories about the B&G 2000/3000 not working as advertised.., and service being less than stellar

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I recently did the Garmin versus B&G math, ended up going with the B&G kit. Why? A sampling ... I prefer the 508 wind, the WiFi-1, and the ZG100 versus the Garmin equivalents. The functions that are top of my list seemed well done on the Zeus line (waypoint / route / track management and navigating to/along same). I like the GoFree API story ... its high time the marine industry opens up the interfaces on these products.

 

Plus I just came off a year long run-around with GMI10 0183 processing, Blue Chart Mobile being unusable for pre-race planning, etc. Had trouble with their cycling products, etc. I'd had enough.

 

Garmin is paying more attention to sail with the Nexus acquisition. The Nexus folks seem like great people. More competition in the sail race space is a good thing. Then see post 15.

 

They all have their problems. Often feels like a choice of the lesser of evils. Working through a few issues now with B&G, lets see how this goes.

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Further to this, we have just added support for the Garmin GNX120/130 custom channels to Expedition. It works very nicely and finally gives us a good way to display sailing related numbers on Nmea 2000 systems.

 

There is more to come, but this is a very good start.

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With Nick's reaction time, I don't know that the need is really there. By the time it was worked around, he would likely already have a native Garmin format solution in place.

I stand by my statement. :)

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Garmin a serious company for sailors? You must be joking...

 

Nexus Marine was a very good alternative - but eliminated by Garmin.

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If only Garmin were anywhere near as serious about sailing as Nick is about keeping expedition up to date!

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If only Garmin any manufacturer were anywhere near as serious about sailing their customers as Nick is about keeping expedition up to date!

 

Fixed it for you.

 

Nick is pretty hard to beat, in terms of response time. I usually get a response in 10-20 minutes, which is amazing. Then I figure out what time it is on his end, and it makes it even more amazing.

 

I don't think he sleeps...

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Further to this, we have just added support for the Garmin GNX120/130 custom channels to Expedition. It works very nicely and finally gives us a good way to display sailing related numbers on Nmea 2000 systems.

 

There is more to come, but this is a very good start.

So Nick, that is good news.

WHAT CAN I do with EXP, a GND 10 and a pair of GNX120 s.

Do I need a GNX21 as well?

 

Can add a Nexus server if needed, but prefer not!

 

Bob

 

ps: anyone got a good NX2 GPS Navigator for sale. Pref available in Europe?

 

 

 

BB

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replying to myself:

 

I bounght two GNX120s to replace the Tacktick mast displays on my J97.

 

you cannot use a GND 21 to program the display on a GNX120, nor to convert NMEA 0183 sentences to NMEA 2000 pgns (pity)

 

- you need to buy an Actisense NGW-1 or something similar for the conversion to 2000 from 0183 if you need to.

 

The main problems here is that

tho Actisence are very reluctant to tell you so, they never got round to making the ISO protocol converter work faster than the standard 4800 baud! 1 to 2 seconds delay.Needs to be

9600 or 19200 baud.

-

- if you have Nexus stuff you might buy a Garmin GND10 but there are lots of restrictions as to what it will and wont do. It seems it wont actually work with a Nexus

server btw, at least for now.

 

The GNX120s are nice!

 

BB

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I should add to that that most people will use the NGT-1 NMEA 2000 adaptor for direct access to the network, which is at 115k baud.

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The Actisense NGW-1 supports the standard NMEA 0183 4800 baud rate by default with its standard version of firmware. The NGW-1 also supports the NMEA 0183 HS 38400 baud rate by default with its AIS version of firmware.

In either case, the baud rate in the NGW-1 can be changed via the ‘hardware config’ tab in our freely available NMEA Reader:

http://actisense.com/products/actisense-software/nmeareader-eblreader/nmeareader-eblreader.html

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I stand corrected!

Will try the 19200 option (assuming I can get nexus nx2 to write at that rate).

BB

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Please see the note on page 9 of the NGW-1 User Manual:

 

Only the USB variant of the NGW-1 is capable of baud rates above 115200. Do not change the baud rate of the other variants to 115200 baud or above. Doing so will prevent the NGW-1 from communicating.

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