Peter Johnstone

PLEASE SAY A PRAYER FOR RAINMAKER'S CREW

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Thanks for the shots and the note, G. Reinhard Peer, they made this interested spectator's day. I don't know if it was your intent, but the deadpan humor of "The danger is that any ship at night will crash into this hull, then I guess it will be damage" is pretty solid intentional or otherwise.

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It's hard to see that boat being a safe haven for a crew, since it probably looks like a half tide rock when the seas get up.

 

if my choice was 6 people in a 6 person liferaft, or 6 people on that hull, i might choose the hull

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It's hard to see that boat being a safe haven for a crew, since it probably looks like a half tide rock when the seas get up.

 

if my choice was 6 people in a 6 person liferaft, or 6 people on that hull, i might choose the hull

 

 

Normally I'd choose the multi instead of the raft, but I can't see anywhere you could shelter on that boat. It looks as if even in a moderate sea, each crest would sweep all over and through the boat, so death from hypothermia would follow quickly. How would you secure yourself safely, even in a hammock slung under the deckhead down below, when waves rolled over the deck and into the interior with enough force to blow out the hatches?

 

The old concept of a cruising multi always being a safe haven when filled or inverted (which they often were) may have dated from days of timber construction or thicker foam core and less weighty engines and equipment.

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I think you should consider that 6 people on board may have been able to manage the boat to the point where it would not have been nearly so flooded if at all. It's moot anyway.

 

A more interesting question would be "is the shell as it stands now worth anything " ?

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take the hull... rip everything out from below. Put some minimal pipeberths etc back in ...

keep the flush deck with just a small "pilothouse" and make it a day/racer....

 

lets assume ( and that's really a blind guess ) it cost 50 grand to tow her back to the yard, Put another 300 grand into the Spartan outfitted new Phoenix ....

(Phoenix with double dots on the O and no e :-)

 

and you have a formidable boat to rip the Caribbean race circuit for less than some of the big boat sail budgets

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It's hard to see that boat being a safe haven for a crew, since it probably looks like a half tide rock when the seas get up.

 

if my choice was 6 people in a 6 person liferaft, or 6 people on that hull, i might choose the hull

 

 

Normally I'd choose the multi instead of the raft, but I can't see anywhere you could shelter on that boat. It looks as if even in a moderate sea, each crest would sweep all over and through the boat, so death from hypothermia would follow quickly. How would you secure yourself safely, even in a hammock slung under the deckhead down below, when waves rolled over the deck and into the interior with enough force to blow out the hatches?

 

The old concept of a cruising multi always being a safe haven when filled or inverted (which they often were) may have dated from days of timber construction or thicker foam core and less weighty engines and equipment.

 

 

have you done the safety at sea with the in-the-water part where you get in the liferaft?

 

i've done it a few times, and even 20 minutes in a packed life raft is pretty bad...

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take the hull... rip everything out from below. Put some minimal pipeberths etc back in ...

keep the flush deck with just a small "pilothouse" and make it a day/racer....

 

lets assume ( and that's really a blind guess ) it cost 50 grand to tow her back to the yard, Put another 300 grand into the Spartan outfitted new Phoenix ....

(Phoenix with double dots on the O and no e :-)

 

and you have a formidable boat to rip the Caribbean race circuit for less than some of the big boat sail budgets

The interior damage alone from everything washing about will have fucked the inner skin and core in a lot of places.

You really think you can get that fixed and new rig, standing and running rigging along with a set of sails??? For 300k. Good luck.

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take the hull... rip everything out from below. Put some minimal pipeberths etc back in ...

keep the flush deck with just a small "pilothouse" and make it a day/racer....

 

lets assume ( and that's really a blind guess ) it cost 50 grand to tow her back to the yard, Put another 300 grand into the Spartan outfitted new Phoenix ....

(Phoenix with double dots on the O and no e :-)

 

and you have a formidable boat to rip the Caribbean race circuit for less than some of the big boat sail budgets

I suspect the structure was overbuilt to cope with the heavy cruise design philosophy so she would be a overweight racer.

Not worth it for the performance plus god knows what internal damage there is.

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It's hard to see that boat being a safe haven for a crew, since it probably looks like a half tide rock when the seas get up.

 

if my choice was 6 people in a 6 person liferaft, or 6 people on that hull, i might choose the hull

 

 

Normally I'd choose the multi instead of the raft, but I can't see anywhere you could shelter on that boat. It looks as if even in a moderate sea, each crest would sweep all over and through the boat, so death from hypothermia would follow quickly. How would you secure yourself safely, even in a hammock slung under the deckhead down below, when waves rolled over the deck and into the interior with enough force to blow out the hatches?

 

The old concept of a cruising multi always being a safe haven when filled or inverted (which they often were) may have dated from days of timber construction or thicker foam core and less weighty engines and equipment.

 

 

have you done the safety at sea with the in-the-water part where you get in the liferaft?

 

i've done it a few times, and even 20 minutes in a packed life raft is pretty bad...

 

 

Yep, I've done the raft exercise. I'd still prefer it to being in the deckhouse when it went, and trying to dodge shards, splinters and structures. And as for being inside the hulls, it seems obvious from the blown-out structures that the seas were funneling in their with enormous force. You'd have to imagine they were filling the entire hull repeatedly. It looks no safer than a sea-swept rock,

 

I've put my life and my family's life in multis offshore, but they were ones with large buoyancy tanks.

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I think you should consider that 6 people on board may have been able to manage the boat to the point where it would not have been nearly so flooded if at all. It's moot anyway.

 

A more interesting question would be "is the shell as it stands now worth anything " ?

 

I think you should consider that I may have considered that already. Yes, they may have been able to stop the boat flooding, but given that they hadn't been able (for whatever reason) to prevent the rig falling, the longeron hitting the water and the props from fouling then it's far from certain they would have been able to prevent the flooding.

 

It's not really moot, because if there are specific designs that are not actually able to float well when inverted or filled then people may die. Everyone I know who flipped a multi offshore got home safely (which is a better record than those who were on monos that sank) but all of them were on boats that floated high.

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I think you should consider that 6 people on board may have been able to manage the boat to the point where it would not have been nearly so flooded if at all. It's moot anyway.

 

A more interesting question would be "is the shell as it stands now worth anything " ?

 

I think you should consider that I may have considered that already. Yes, they may have been able to stop the boat flooding, but given that they hadn't been able (for whatever reason) to prevent the rig falling, the longeron hitting the water and the props from fouling then it's far from certain they would have been able to prevent the flooding.

 

It's not really moot, because if there are specific designs that are not actually able to float well when inverted or filled then people may die. Everyone I know who flipped a multi offshore got home safely (which is a better record than those who were on monos that sank) but all of them were on boats that floated high.

 

 

You may have not known him but Loic Caradec flipped ROYALE and didn't get home safely. I knew him and I doubt that he was still on board when the flip occurred but you should be more careful about making such broad sweeping statements. I am all for multihulls and do know people who did get home safely after flipping offshore but lets not assume that survivability is assured when a multihull flips. That is a pretty serious situation and depends on a lot more that just the boats geometry. I'm with you on thie HobieCatter but lets be careful in such claims.

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It wasn't really very broad or sweeping, it was about the narrow class of people I personally know who have flipped multis.

 

I think we're trying to make the same point. You can't bet on surviving, especially if the boat floats too low, so we can't just assume that all inverted multis are good survival platforms. The fact that Rainmaker's six flotation compartments don't seem to have kept her safe seems to be interesting in itself. Did they leak slowly or quickly? Is there any way of pumping out the compartments if they are leaking and how do you test for leaks before disaster strikes? I hadn't thought of this issue but from now on, I will.

 

Kudos for knowing Loic - that was a very sad moment.

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True about Loic. He befriended us on our small tri that was parked just astern of ROYALE at the marina in England before the start of the TWOSTAR. Our boat looked like a tender to the ROYALE and if we had turned 90 degrees could probably been hoisted in davits as such. He and his boat were at the apex of the French dominance in the offshore racing scene at the time. I was in awe of him and his boat yet he was very open and generous to a couple of neophytes in that realm. His loss a couple of months later in the Route du Rhum was very sobering to me.

 

I once capsized a production multihull that was advertised to have full flotation compatrments and hatches that would float shut during a capsize and self seal even if open at the time. Sad to say those claims were unfounded. I agree with your comments about compartmentation and testing for watertightness. I would like to hear more about the boat that you mentioned with compartmentation.

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Dammit, and I knew the 60' was the Chinese one. There is a little more than zero resemblance on the 2 55s. The HH has a big sliding door where the GB was more open air. Take that door out and there you are. The longeron is similar but that's an M&M thing. For a company with an alleged no competition contract I would say they are doing just that.

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And there's zero resemblance between the gb55 and HH55.

 

 

I dunno, they look pretty similar

 

 

 

Sure. Two hulls, and cabin, and a sloop rig. Bob Perry's job just got easier.

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And there's zero resemblance between the gb55 and HH55.

 

 

I dunno, they look pretty similar

 

 

You might also think it's the carbon version of this:

 

dh550-vanilla7.jpg

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Not sure any boat builder would sign a contract agreeing they wouldn't build boats? The only contact that would make sense would revolve around proprietary tooling... But if the tooling wasn't paid for in full then all bets are off.

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Of course it is.

Being unsinkable, it will be out there forever unless it gets towed out of the environment, all the way to DFG.

Navy target practice?

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The tri Région Aquitaine / Port medoc Atlantique has just been found off the coast of Medeira, 5 years after she capsized on delivery back from the RdR. So if anybody wants a beater project cat, it'll be 2020 before you know it.

 

http://www.courseaularge.com/trimaran-de-50-region-aquitaine-port-medoc-atlantique-retrouve.html

 

cid_99F8FD6AA0CB47F29E824E4404E20DCD@Uti

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She has been found off of the coast of Bermuda, PJ posted a picture of her under tow on Facebook. I heard that Team Oracle found her. I couldn't get the photo to load, what am I doing wrong?

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Well, Oracle does have a lot of experience towing partially-sunken catamarans back to base.

 

Couldn't have been found by a more experienced group of fellas in that regard :P

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Well, Oracle does have a lot of experience towing partially-sunken catamarans back to base.

 

Couldn't have been found by a more experienced group of fellas in that regard :P

Got a good laugh out of me over that one.

 

But seriously, what a testimony to the quality of the build that the basic structure largely survived intact. Wow!

 

Was that one built in NC?

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Yes, it seems like more damage than I would have predicted. All pillars to roof completely gone at deck level (bad glue bond?), foils missing, deck hatches seem completely missing (and hard corner cut outs?)

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Yes, it seems like more damage than I would have predicted. All pillars to roof completely gone at deck level (bad glue bond?), foils missing, deck hatches seem completely missing (and hard corner cut outs?)

IIRC one of the reasons why they abandoned is because when the mast fell, the cabin top structure was compromised.

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Yes, it seems like more damage than I would have predicted. All pillars to roof completely gone at deck level (bad glue bond?), foils missing, deck hatches seem completely missing (and hard corner cut outs?)

We will never know but my guess is PJ paid someone to gut this boat shorty after they abandoned while the boat was still near its orginal location. Winches,hatches etc don't just unbolt themselves.

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Yes, it seems like more damage than I would have predicted. All pillars to roof completely gone at deck level (bad glue bond?), foils missing, deck hatches seem completely missing (and hard corner cut outs?)

We will never know but my guess is PJ paid someone to gut this boat shorty after they abandoned while the boat was still near its orginal location. Winches,hatches etc don't just unbolt themselves.

That is, without doubt, one of the stupidest things I've read on SA. Congratulations. That's a helluva an achievement.

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Even the davits are ripped off.

 

Those were gone at the first sighting, many months ago. Was there a Rib attached to them at some point?

 

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Even the davits are ripped off.

Those were gone at the first sighting, many months ago. Was there a Rib attached to them at some point?

Yeah, I looked back at the photo from June. No davits then. It looks like the aft beam is split inboard of the davit on port.

 

Winches ARE there though. New photos are up.

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post-63466-0-24334400-1457992027_thumb.jpg
Looks like its been stripped of hatches, winches, some hardware etc (one winch left that I can see).
If done by human hands it wouldn't have been an easy job- But easier to imagine than Neptune taking them...?

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attachicon.gif535219_10153318244378414_3093330625976532614_n.jpg

Looks like its been stripped of hatches, winches, some hardware etc (one winch left that I can see).

If done by human hands it wouldn't have been an easy job- But easier to imagine than Neptune taking them...?

Not hard to imagine the forces caused by waves breaking over this boat for over year stripping everything away. I am sure there was easily enough pressure to blow the hatches out from below. The storm that hit her shortly after abandonment was said to be plus 80 K winds and 25 foot seas. Neptune can take whatever he wants off of a boat floating uncontrolled in those conditions.

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Looks like someone took all the champagne glasses too.

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I am sure there was easily enough pressure to blow the hatches out from below.

Yeah maybe.. They should be designed to NOT be washed off a deck by seas though, recesses are shown in pic and they all look intact too.

 

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With this better picture, one can see that the 'square' profile is just a recess into the deck so the top of the hatch is flush. Hatch deck pieces can be discerned still attached to deck. Air pressure from waves surging into hulls has blown the lids off. Two winches visible on central pod, one complete, forward one has no drum anymore. were there any winches aft/outboard to sheet reachers/asso's??

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With this better picture, one can see that the 'square' profile is just a recess into the deck so the top of the hatch is flush. Hatch deck pieces can be discerned still attached to deck. Air pressure from waves surging into hulls has blown the lids off. Two winches visible on central pod, one complete, forward one has no drum anymore. were there any winches aft/outboard to sheet reachers/asso's??

Nope.

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Same as the other GBs, fwd cockpit. The older GBs only had aft deck winches for the dink. The newer gbs have captive reel winches for the dink.

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OK, curiosity got me - I went back & looked at Gunboat ads. NO sheet winches, no forward cockpit. ALL lines led to the two winches inside the windshield.

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Like Gunboat itself. A complete wreck.

 

But at least our prayers have been answered.

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You can stop praying now.

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Compare this to the dismasted yacht that carried the mummified remains of the German for longer, then I think I know which I would rather have been in.

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Did they ever cut away the mast/boom? If not then rigging sweeping around in a storm explains how the deck got scoured of stanchions etc. IIRC the boat only had two winches in that area forward of the steering pedestal and one of them is still there. There's nothing salvageable there as all the engines, hydraulics etc must be nothing but corroded junk and the work to sort them out and fix the structural issue can't be worth it especially as there's no yard to do it. Not surprising that the boat didn't sink so I guess they had to tow it in to scrap it. I reckon they should should just partially fill it concrete and make it into an artificial reef

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they should make it into a monument to the hubris of people who go out chasing 35-45 knots of wind in their new toy.

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Did they ever cut away the mast/boom? If not then rigging sweeping around in a storm explains how the deck got scoured of stanchions etc. IIRC the boat only had two winches in that area forward of the steering pedestal and one of them is still there. There's nothing salvageable there as all the engines, hydraulics etc must be nothing but corroded junk and the work to sort them out and fix the structural issue can't be worth it especially as there's no yard to do it. Not surprising that the boat didn't sink so I guess they had to tow it in to scrap it. I reckon they should should just partially fill it concrete and make it into an artificial reef

Pretty nice hull for a fit out - beats building from scratch.

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Did they ever cut away the mast/boom? If not then rigging sweeping around in a storm explains how the deck got scoured of stanchions etc. IIRC the boat only had two winches in that area forward of the steering pedestal and one of them is still there. There's nothing salvageable there as all the engines, hydraulics etc must be nothing but corroded junk and the work to sort them out and fix the structural issue can't be worth it especially as there's no yard to do it. Not surprising that the boat didn't sink so I guess they had to tow it in to scrap it. I reckon they should should just partially fill it concrete and make it into an artificial reef

Pretty nice hull for a fit out - beats building from scratch.

 

 

Agreed. This thing will sail again, well at least it will move again. Its not an old hull filled of rotten balsa. Its a prepreg autoclaved hull. Im sure something can be made of it.

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Did they ever cut away the mast/boom? If not then rigging sweeping around in a storm explains how the deck got scoured of stanchions etc. IIRC the boat only had two winches in that area forward of the steering pedestal and one of them is still there. There's nothing salvageable there as all the engines, hydraulics etc must be nothing but corroded junk and the work to sort them out and fix the structural issue can't be worth it especially as there's no yard to do it. Not surprising that the boat didn't sink so I guess they had to tow it in to scrap it. I reckon they should should just partially fill it concrete and make it into an artificial reef

Pretty nice hull for a fit out - beats building from scratch.

Nothing more expensive than a free boat.

 

There are a half dozen, unwanted, half-finished 55's that'll be for sale for cheap that are barnacle free.

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Did they ever cut away the mast/boom? If not then rigging sweeping around in a storm explains how the deck got scoured of stanchions etc. IIRC the boat only had two winches in that area forward of the steering pedestal and one of them is still there. There's nothing salvageable there as all the engines, hydraulics etc must be nothing but corroded junk and the work to sort them out and fix the structural issue can't be worth it especially as there's no yard to do it. Not surprising that the boat didn't sink so I guess they had to tow it in to scrap it. I reckon they should should just partially fill it concrete and make it into an artificial reef

Pretty nice hull for a fit out - beats building from scratch.

 

 

Agreed. This thing will sail again, well at least it will move again. Its not an old hull filled of rotten balsa. Its a prepreg autoclaved hull. Im sure something can be made of it.

 

 

Neither pre-preg nor autoclaved.....but you were close.

 

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I may be seeing things, but it looks like a big crack in the aft beam inboard of the port davit?

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If it's structurally sound, I could see it salvaged and turned into a day charter cat...

 

It would be a lot cheaper than starting from scratch

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To establish it is structurally sound will be expensive in itself and may not be definitive.

 

Proof of service: "Ah...it stood up to being mostly submerged & being beaten by its rig for twelve

months so it must be strong."

That will get you charter survey straight off....

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If the core isn't wet, somebody can use it if they get the chance. But, even in the best case scenario of no structural damage, no leaks after pumping it out, and a core that's not saturated, I don't think it's worth very much given the current state of affairs in Wanchese. Their pristine unfinished hulls can't be worth much either if the completed G4 is worth $300k.

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If the core isn't wet, somebody can use it if they get the chance. But, even in the best case scenario of no structural damage, no leaks after pumping it out, and a core that's not saturated, I don't think it's worth very much given the current state of affairs in Wanchese. Their pristine unfinished hulls can't be worth much either if the completed G4 is worth $300k.

What sort of core gets saturated?

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If the core isn't wet, somebody can use it if they get the chance. But, even in the best case scenario of no structural damage, no leaks after pumping it out, and a core that's not saturated, I don't think it's worth very much given the current state of affairs in Wanchese. Their pristine unfinished hulls can't be worth much either if the completed G4 is worth $300k.

What sort of core gets saturated?

 

 

They all do.

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I may be seeing things, but it looks like a big crack in the aft beam inboard of the port davit?

 

To me, it looks like something hanging off the remnants of the traveler. It appears to overlay the graphics of the name.

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You can stop praying now.

Rodger that
Lots of creditors still out there adrift... Keep praying!

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You know...There is this guy named Hotrod who just might be the man to bring her back. He's a master carpenter.

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Optimism is a cruel and expensive bitch. Sink it.

 

I am truly impressed that the hull defiantly finished the trip that the owners didn't have the stones for - but really...tme to reef.

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But would you have wanted to shelter in that floating aquarium?

 

Desgners sure didn't have that concept as a brief.

Rather, "our segment get heli vac'd at the drop of a hat, so no-need".

 

Well...maybe not. Couldn't resist the sarcasm, but surely that is the reality

of a glass superstructure no budget constraints.

 

Pity the c/roof wasn't built like the rest of it. Assuming it is still sound.

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I just hope if they trash it, they do it methodically so it amounts to destructive testing. This is a great opportunity to see how modern construction techniques actually perform.

 

At least check out the hull underneath the steps to see if it's dry all the way through like it should be. Then if there's damage from contact, check to see how far the water has spread. It shouldn't have spread very far.

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Agreed. And, we get to hear about it if it isn't so good.

I guess that is the last thing on the receivers mind right now.

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Then if there's damage from contact, check to see how far the water has spread. It shouldn't have spread very far.

 

If this was any kind of kerfed core, then I will bet that the water would have spread throughout the boat.

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Then if there's damage from contact, check to see how far the water has spread. It shouldn't have spread very far.

 

If this was any kind of kerfed core, then I will bet that the water would have spread throughout the boat.

 

 

 

Its infused. Those kerfs, for better or worse, are full of resin.

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Then if there's damage from contact, check to see how far the water has spread. It shouldn't have spread very far.

 

If this was any kind of kerfed core, then I will bet that the water would have spread throughout the boat.

 

 

 

Its infused. Those kerfs, for better or worse, are full of resin.

 

 

Yeah, you might think that.

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Then if there's damage from contact, check to see how far the water has spread. It shouldn't have spread very far.

If this was any kind of kerfed core, then I will bet that the water would have spread throughout the boat.

 

Its infused. Those kerfs, for better or worse, are full of resin.

Don't be so sure about that!!

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Just saw a picture of Rainmaker being towed to a yard to begin restoration efforts, it was on PJ's facebook page.

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Just saw a picture of Rainmaker being towed to a yard to begin restoration efforts, it was on PJ's facebook page.

Did Rainmaker have electric motors?

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Just saw a picture of Rainmaker being towed to a yard to begin restoration efforts, it was on PJ's facebook page.

Did Rainmaker have electric motors?

Don't think so. Pretty sure the G4 was the first Gunboat with electric propulsion.

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Just saw a picture of Rainmaker being towed to a yard to begin restoration efforts, it was on PJ's facebook page.

Did Rainmaker have electric motors?

Don't think so. Pretty sure the G4 was the first Gunboat with electric propulsion.

 

G60 Moonwave had electric drives, other G60 not sure

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Multiple 60's have electric drives. I think the G4 had an outboard after the flip in St. Barths.

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Just saw a picture of Rainmaker being towed to a yard to begin restoration efforts, it was on PJ's facebook page.

Did Rainmaker have electric motors?
Don't think so. Pretty sure the G4 was the first Gunboat with electric propulsion.

G60 Moonwave had electric drives, other G60 not sure

Would electric drive influence decision making in Rainmakers situation?

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RM wasn't electric. None of the 55's are.

Already covered. Educated guesses? A hypothetical- as in range for power necessary in that type of seastate w/o a rig-

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They just wanted to get off.

 

The engine type would have made no difference.

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They just wanted to get off.

 

The engine type would have made no difference.

 

DtM, you know this how?

 

I may not have much experience actually sailing, but I know enough to not make statements like that without providing justification/evidence. And what I have heard as evidence (from a report by the skipper) seems to indicate contrary to what you state ... although I personally would still hold my judgement to myself. But perhaps you are more knowledgeable; so would you care to share that knowledge?

 

Or perhaps retract your statement?

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If I were on the Rainmaker and had diesel drives I would be much more likely to set out for the shore in those conditions. Under electric power, no way I would even think about it. I designed and built a 50' fast crusing cat with genset and two electric fixed props on shafts that drove the boat nicely but it had a range of maybe 8 miles with full batts in calm seas and no genset running. The genset was not up to the task of driving both electric motors indefinitely in calm conditions and was not really happy running when the boat was tossing around. Hard to drive 2 9kw electric motors with a 15 KW genset. I think a 30 KW genset in that cat might have been acceptable but I have looked at the Gunboat hybrid drive in the 60's and think it is much better balanced and managed. Still not sure I would set out for the mainland in that situation with all that sensitive electro magic that the Rainmaker faced. A good old direct drive diesel with clean fuel and good filters should keep running until the air intake went underwater and I might have a run for it.

 

I don't think that was even in the minds of the crew and owner on the Rainmaker at the time. The Boss said 'lets get the hell out of here when we can' and that was that. Don't fault the skipper for jumping ship when the owner clearly wanted to leave things up to the insurance. Don't judge unless you have been in those shoes...

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They just wanted to get off.

 

The engine type would have made no difference.

 

DtM, you know this how?

 

I may not have much experience actually sailing, but I know enough to not make statements like that without providing justification/evidence. And what I have heard as evidence (from a report by the skipper) seems to indicate contrary to what you state ... although I personally would still hold my judgement to myself. But perhaps you are more knowledgeable; so would you care to share that knowledge?

 

Or perhaps retract your statement?

 

 

You haven't been here long enough to tell people to retract their statement, especially as you already admit to not having much experience of sailing.

 

So in the mean time, shut the fuck up. Thanks :)

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I can't imagine any scenario where electrics would make you MORE willing to motor home. Though electric drives do have their adherents, I think any argument in favor of better reliability, range, and/or seaworthiness for electrics means someone has been smoking crack.

 

I'd love to see wider adoption of electrics and they DO have their pluses, but not after a dismasting in a gale 750 miles offshore.

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All that engine needs is a little WD-40 and some Marvel Mystery Oil and it will be running smooth as a sewing machine!

 

197c-30674-028.jpg

 

On second thought, that is a bit disruptive for my tastes.

 

6a3a-30674-024.jpg

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