Peter Johnstone

PLEASE SAY A PRAYER FOR RAINMAKER'S CREW

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Please say a prayer for RAINMAKER’s crew.

 

RAINMAKER was dismasted today 36 hours into her passage out of the Gunboat yard about 200 miles SE of Hattaras. From the very brief and patchy sat phone call, and various brief texts, the following is all we have been told:

*Everyone is accounted for aboard, including the owner, his son, and three professional crew.
*The rig was promptly cut away.
*The boat was not holed.
*At the last update there were no injuries.

Conditions are evidently quite severe. It is not uncommon for the cold NW winds to accelerate over the Gulf Stream to windspeeds well above what may show on grib files. They have a large South swell, and are faced with deteriorating conditions with a building NW breeze in the Gulf Stream. Waves and swells have been observed from onboard to be getting worse over the course of the day.

 

An onboard decision has been made to be airlifted off of the boat. The US Coast Guard expects to be on site within 30 minutes.

 

These people are a part of our Gunboat family. Please say a prayer for the safe recovery of the RAINMAKER crew and the safety of the USCG rescue team that has been dispatched. An airlift is not an easy operation in any conditions, never mind these conditions. The Atlantic in February is a merciless place.

 

Praying for their safe recovery and return.

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Thy sea, O God, so great, My boat so small.

 

It cannot be that any happy fate Will me befall

Save as Thy goodness opens paths for me

hrough the consuming vastness of the sea.

 

Thy winds, O God, so strong,

So slight my sail. How could I curb and bit them on the long And saltry trail,

Unless Thy love were mightier than the wrath

Of all the tempests that beset my path?


Thy world, O God, so fierce,

And I so frail.

Yet, though its arrows threaten oft to pierce

My fragile mail,

Cities of refuge rise where dangers cease,

Sweet silences abound, and all is peace. ~Winfred Ernest Garrison

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Seems like tough conditions to start out in this time of year. I hope everyone makes it ok.

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Thank you everyone. All five crew from Rainmaker have been safely airlifted off of RAINMAKER moments ago and are in a helicopter on their way back to shore.

 

Gunboat and RAINMAKER's insurer are actively coordinating her salvage. This will not be easy as conditions are meant to be terrible on Monday.

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Hope they are well. But why if they are only about 200 nm offshore, with no issues from the rest of the boat, are they calling for an airlift??? Surely on a delivery they left with full fuel tanks and can motor to a safe harbor??

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What was their destination? South, I assume, since going north into that blow would not have been very prudent... With an offshore breeze, it could have been a blast if they had stayed closer to shore?

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It seems the modern day sailor with all their high tech equipment has less seamanship skills than the sailor of a bygone era.. I thought Gunboats were blue water boats, built to cross oceans. Are people heading out to sea in boats that are really only designed for coastal cruising? or are they lacking offshore equipment such as droges and sea anchors and the knowledge of how and when to use them?

Too many yachtsmen these days are getting rescued from boats that are still afloat and in reasonable condition. What must the average land lubber think when they see sailors being airlifted off boats that floating on their lines and apparently only suffering superficial damage? There is also the point that you are risking your own life in many situations getting off a perfectly good boat to be rescued by a ship or helicopter..

What happened to the "preserve the boat and keep her afloat attitude", riding out a storm and getting yourself and your boat back to port under your own steam.

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It's a liability conundrum. The skipper is responsible for the lives of all onboard. Say they didn't get off now & in the storm a life is lost. That skipper is very likely going for a big stretch of time inside for the death of that person. Boats insured, probably salvageable & no one is hurt, skipper made the right call. Save your step up into a raft shit for the Judge & Jury - and best of luck with that defence.

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I've been on a monohull with no rig - the motion is a lot quicker, and it can be pretty uncomfortable

 

i'm not sure how it is on a catamaran without a rig

 

i doubt anyone was thinking about liability

 

the reason people in the old days stayed with their boats is because they didn't have any choice

 

this may have been their only chance to get off, and it's not worth risking lives to save a hunk of plastic

 

the more questionable decision might be the one to leave port in the first place...

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I think it is completely nuts to condemn anyone involved with this situation until the facts are known-and nobody posting here right now knows the details of the situation.

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Very sad news about my dream boat. I hope all the crew are safe and the boat is recovered.

 

PJ, I have always wondered how the longeron is supported with no rig. In all the photo i've seen without the rig, there has always been a support underneath. Would the longeron stay up when the rig fell?

 

http://sailinganarchy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/gb-5501-2.jpg

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It is an amazing tribute to Gunboat that your care continues to assisting with salvage and recovery. I'm certain that a month from now Rainmaker will be better than new and ready to leave once again

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Personally, I can't imagine leaving a perfectly good vessel, as you state. However, I can't fault anyone for doing so either. Not at all.

 

But what is going on with these dismastings? I politely asked a question in the other gunboat thread, but no real answer was given.

 

So, again, in the politest possible way, what would cause a dismasting like this? On a monohull, any dismasting caused by anything short of a severe rollover is unacceptable. What is the case with catamarans? And what is the case with the highest end catamarans known to mankind?

It seems the modern day sailor with all their high tech equipment has less seamanship skills than the sailor of a bygone era.. I thought Gunboats were blue water boats, built to cross oceans. Are people heading out to sea in boats that are really only designed for coastal cruising? or are they lacking offshore equipment such as droges and sea anchors and the knowledge of how and when to use them?

Too many yachtsmen these days are getting rescued from boats that are still afloat and in reasonable condition. What must the average land lubber think when they see sailors being airlifted off boats that floating on their lines and apparently only suffering superficial damage? There is also the point that you are risking your own life in many situations getting off a perfectly good boat to be rescued by a ship or helicopter..

What happened to the "preserve the boat and keep her afloat attitude", riding out a storm and getting yourself and your boat back to port under your own steam.

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Good point on the longeron. Didn't occur to me at first. I imagine in 40+ and big seas it'd be unhappy unsupported.

 

The skipper is very experienced, he and I have got +/-10k miles together on GBs. We've been in 50+ sustained for hours on multiple occasions. I don't question his decision making at all. He had great back up, too. His other crew has 4+ trans-Atlantics just on GB's. I'd go to sea with those guys any time.

 

As for abandoning, tough to armchair that decision. We'll get the story soon enough and I'm sure they had their reasons.

 

On a long enough timeline we'll all find ourselves in that position.

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I've been on a monohull with no rig - the motion is a lot quicker, and it can be pretty uncomfortable

 

i'm not sure how it is on a catamaran without a rig

 

i doubt anyone was thinking about liability

 

the reason people in the old days stayed with their boats is because they didn't have any choice

 

this may have been their only chance to get off, and it's not worth risking lives to save a hunk of plastic

 

the more questionable decision might be the one to leave port in the first place...

The motion of the multi I was on that dropped the rig changed a little, but it didn't make the difference it does on a mono. Still wasn't an enjoyable experience, and we were only 2 miles from safe harbour.

Lots of people always ready to jump on anyone that abandons ship, it is as you say, what is a boat compared with a life?

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It will be good to get the full story...

 

Glad everyone is safe and sound.

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If Soma vets these guys, then we should all just shut up and get the full story. Lots of mitigating factors as to their decision. Stop jumping to conclusions and lets get the facts. I doubt anyone would really want to have taken their places off of Hatteras at this time of year under these conditions. I don't see many parallels with the abandonment last year from the Alpha Cat.

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It will be interesting to know if the longeron was involved in the failure. It seems to me if something fails in the longeron rigging, the rig comes down, no? Not much different that a forward cross with seagull stiker I guess but a bit more complicated maybe.

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What is a longeron?

 

 

What's a weather forecast?

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thank god everyone is safe, one more time Thank you USCG. The men and women serving you make a huge impact in our lives and lack therefore of.

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What's the Atlantic, in Winter, with a record NE'r kicking up the shit?

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So grateful for the US Coast Guard. RAINMAKER's crew is safely ashore at Dare County Airport. The chopper landed on fumes, and could not make it to their base. Ironically, Dare is on Roanoke Island close to Gunboat. The RAINMAKER crew got a warm welcome from a very grateful Gunboat team. Happy to have our family safe. A huge hug to the crew and the USCG rescue team.

 

With the rig cutaway immediately to preserve the yacht in a prudent act of seamanship, we may never know exactly what happened. I echo SOMA's evaluation of the crew. Captain, Owner, son, and pros are all top notch people and offshore sailors. I trust their judgement implicitly in making all safety calls as they saw fit to do. Unless one was there, how can one question? As mentioned before, February in the North Atlantic is a merciless place.

 

We intend to find RAINMAKER, and bring her back better than new as soon as we can. She is a special boat. This is a special family. Salvage efforts are underway with a joint effort by Gunboat and Rainmaker's insurer.

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What's the Atlantic, in Winter, with a record NE'r kicking up the shit?

 

No shit. GB's PR is in full swing to make this smell a lot better than it appears. The weather has been complete shit for weeks. Hey, I got an idea...

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As mentioned before, February in the North Atlantic is a merciless place.

 

So, address the elephant in the room. Why was RAINMAKER offshore at this time in the first place?

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What's a carbon fiber hazard to navigation?

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This doesn't look good for the crew or Gunboat.

 

What were they doing out there with the forecast as it was?

 

Whats this then , the second Gunboat rig down, another with a broken rudder and another with cracked bulkheads according to the rumour mill. Any truth in this Peter?

 

Yeah lots of questions that need answering. Glad they are all safe, I know some people don't like to see people air lifted off a boat that is not sinking however perhaps there were more issues with the boat than initially reported? I also note this is the second GB to lose a rig, I wonder whether these boats have a limit to conditions and they are being stretched? Great work by the Coastguard and as usual these people are the real heroes. Their safety gear was good and this is the positive to come from this incident.

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Just trying to get my head around the passage planning here:

Assuming Thursday departure, set off into 25 knots knowing you had 12 hours close to a lee shore banging your head against the elements. Also enjoy forecasted 6-8m seas. Then all hell breaks loose with forecasts up to 50 knots as you cross the gulf stream. Conversely, leave on Saturday and enjoy a nice downwind run in 15-20 knots, possibly even drop into a 20-25 knot broad reaching groove with 3m seas all the way to Bermuda.

 

Am I missing something here?

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Longeron would not be supported if the rig is cutaway. Could be lashed up, or also cutaway.

 

A freighter attempted rescue alongside a few hours into this ordeal. After repeatedly bashing the side of Rainmaker, rescue was deemed too dangerous, and airlift was requested. We will not know the extent of the damage until we recover her. She was structurally intact with no water ingress.

 

Gunboats have done over two million sea miles in all oceans with no structural hull issues. Several early rudders did not survive impact. We changed our engineering firm nearly ten years ago, and promptly resolved that issue. Since then Slim broke some rudders engineered and designed by others. Those were not by Gunboat. There have been two severe groundings that have caused some other damage. All in all, for the miles and the abuse these boats take, they have been remarkably resilient.

 

Two of our rigs have been lost in 15 years and over two million sea miles. Obviously we would like to see no failures. When you create a new segment in the marketplace, there will be unknowns and new grounds covered. Our fleet is continually pushed hard by very capable owners and crew.

 

This was a well prepared yacht. Her Captain is one of the best I know. She was 240kgs over her engineered lightship weight. All of that can be attributed to non-standard options. This amount would not significantly alter the engineered safety margins. Her loaded condition at departure appeared under her engineered maximum full load.

 

A modern multi can produce size able shock loads, as Mouse Trap showed a few years back while power sailing in little wind. The location of Rainmaker in her local conditions would produce confused seas from various directions. A sizable South swell, the NE flowing Gulf Stream current against a big NW breeze, 12-14 ft NW waves running into the Gulf Stream and South swell, winds veering right over the day. It is a recipe for steep, short period nasty breaking seas from various directions, and shock loading. If you have been out there as I have many times, this area can be very uncomfortable on any vessel. This is the same area where another maker's well built and prepared 57' cat endured a similar loss of rig last year. A well built and prepared 60' performance cat endured a similar experience off of Vietnam recently. Will there be collective wisdom gained? That should be the goal.

 

We have shared as much as we know so others may benefit from this incident. A discussion may possibly prevent injury or loss of life in the future? The above conversation is a healthy start.

 

We are extremely grateful for everyone's prayers and heartfelt support. And even more grateful for the USCG's rescue and safe return of the Rainmaker crew.

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What is a longeron?

 

What's a weather forecast?

What's an inner coastal waterway?

 

Uhhh, a route crossed by fixed bridges 19 feet lower than the air draft of a Gunboat 55?

 

The math does not appear to favor the ICW as an option...

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After repeatedly bashing the side of Rainmaker,

Nooooooooo!

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Thy sea, O God, so great, My boat so small.

 

It cannot be that any happy fate Will me befall

Save as Thy goodness opens paths for me

hrough the consuming vastness of the sea.

 

Thy winds, O God, so strong,

So slight my sail. How could I curb and bit them on the long And saltry trail,

Unless Thy love were mightier than the wrath

Of all the tempests that beset my path?

 

Thy world, O God, so fierce,

And I so frail.

Yet, though its arrows threaten oft to pierce

My fragile mail,

Cities of refuge rise where dangers cease,

Sweet silences abound, and all is peace. ~Winfred Ernest Garrison

Simply beautiful Tiketipete. And Winifred Earnest Garrison.

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Just trying to get my head around the passage planning here:

Assuming Thursday departure, set off into 25 knots knowing you had 12 hours close to a lee shore banging your head against the elements. Also enjoy forecasted 6-8m seas. Then all hell breaks loose with forecasts up to 50 knots as you cross the gulf stream. Conversely, leave on Saturday and enjoy a nice downwind run in 15-20 knots, possibly even drop into a 20-25 knot broad reaching groove with 3m seas all the way to Bermuda.

 

Am I missing something here?

 

i don't know where they were heading, but in a couple days it would have gotten ugly:

 

post-20582-0-46814900-1422708473_thumb.pngpost-20582-0-84974400-1422708776_thumb.png

post-20582-0-41826400-1422708238_thumb.pngpost-20582-0-00643500-1422708399_thumb.png

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Ok,It will be Interesting to know why the very experienced crew would want to raft up to a freighter in the Gulfstream in 55 knots, when the word is the boat was not holed ( PJ's first post).

 

Good question, especially given there are few safer "platforms" in serious weather than aboard a mega catamaran:

 

 

SAFETY

 

Speed = Storm Avoidance

 

The ultimate safety feature is pure speed. Sail around storms. If a storm is unavoidable, safety is derived from the ability to surf sideways. With daggerboards up, the round bottom hulls will skate sideways along waves, and the long high bows offer tremendous reserve buoyancy. We believe mega catamarans are the safest platform for surviving the worst weather.

 

Unsinkable

 

Six water-tight bulkheads, and a carbon reinforced underbody make flooding very unlikely. The composite laminate’s foam core acts as the ultimate reserve buoyancy. Even with the unthinkable, it remains unsinkable.

 

Still, I've gotta assume such an experienced crew didn't pull the plug without a pretty good reason ;-)

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Just trying to get my head around the passage planning here:

Assuming Thursday departure, set off into 25 knots knowing you had 12 hours close to a lee shore banging your head against the elements. Also enjoy forecasted 6-8m seas. Then all hell breaks loose with forecasts up to 50 knots as you cross the gulf stream. Conversely, leave on Saturday and enjoy a nice downwind run in 15-20 knots, possibly even drop into a 20-25 knot broad reaching groove with 3m seas all the way to Bermuda.

 

Am I missing something here?

 

i don't know where they were heading, but in a couple days it would have gotten ugly:

 

attachicon.gif060.pngattachicon.gif066.png

attachicon.gif060b.pngattachicon.gif072.png

 

 

That's gonna ratchet up the cost of any salvage effort a bit, no? That thing might be halfway to Ireland before they can get a towline on her... ;-)

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team.

 

She is a special boat. This is a special family. Salvage efforts are underway with a joint effort by Gunboat and Rainmaker's insurer.

And the crew took a special bus to school when they were little.

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Going out in this was good idea because ????

 



A modern multi can produce size able shock loads, as Mouse Trap showed a few years back while power sailing in little wind. The location of Rainmaker in her local conditions would produce confused seas from various directions. A sizable South swell, the NE flowing Gulf Stream current against a big NW breeze, 12-14 ft NW waves running into the Gulf Stream and South swell, winds veering right over the day. It is a recipe for steep, short period nasty breaking seas from various directions, and shock loading. If you have been out there as I have many times, this area can be very uncomfortable on any vessel. This is the same area where another maker's well built and prepared 57' cat endured a similar loss of rig last year. A well built and prepared 60' performance cat endured a similar experience off of Vietnam recently. Will there be collective wisdom gained? That should be the goal.

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This morning's update: Sustained winds were 30-35 knots. Squalls had been in the 40 knot range for most of the day. A full whiteout squall hit that initially looked no different than the other squalls. Sails were up as there was no indication of squalls with winds above 40 knots. A wall of wind hit at up to 70 knots. There was no opportunity to get the sails down. The mast came down with the wall of wind. Am simply relieved these guys are all safe.

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The USCG press release says the crew were preparing to abandon and get into a life raft when they came on the scene.

Wonder if that was because the hull was compromised, or just to assist in an easier airlift?

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The USCG press release says the crew were preparing to abandon and get into a life raft when they came on the scene.

Wonder if that was because the hull was compromised, or just to assist in an easier airlift?

There certainly wasn't any rigging in the way to snag the hoist.

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What's the Atlantic, in Winter, with a record NE'r kicking up the shit?

 

No shit. GB's PR is in full swing to make this smell a lot better than it appears. The weather has been complete shit for weeks. Hey, I got an idea...

 

 

i am not sure why anyone thinks it is PJ or GB's responsibility to pick a departure window for the owner and his pro crew...

 

Sure, it seems like it was a bad decision - but people make bad decisions every day.., just lucky everyone is ok

 

The USCG practices this stuff every day - i think they like doing it.., I also think they know their safety margins pretty well, and don't need us to advise them on it.

 

rigs have come down on high performance sailboats for how long...? Let met think... Oh.., pretty much since sailboats were invented.

 

maybe it was a design flaw in the boat or the rig.., maybe it was a manufacturing flaw in the boat or the rig.., maybe it was operator error.., maybe it was a combination of some or all of those possibilities.

 

I hope we find out what happened so the boat and rig system can be improved, if needed.

 

they are great boats and both of the threads on this are a pretty pathetic display of a bunch of computer jockeys criticizing people who are actually doing something pretty cool - in the real world

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Just trying to get my head around the passage planning here:

Assuming Thursday departure, set off into 25 knots knowing you had 12 hours close to a lee shore banging your head against the elements. Also enjoy forecasted 6-8m seas. Then all hell breaks loose with forecasts up to 50 knots as you cross the gulf stream. Conversely, leave on Saturday and enjoy a nice downwind run in 15-20 knots, possibly even drop into a 20-25 knot broad reaching groove with 3m seas all the way to Bermuda.

 

Am I missing something here?

 

A lee shore with wind from the NW? I don't see it that way. Gale force winds blowing offshore can produce ideal conditions for fast sailing in flat water if you stay close enough to shore (ten to twenty miles), minimizing the fetch. However, that doesn't appear to be the course they followed.

 

 

Longeron would not be supported if the rig is cutaway. Could be lashed up, or also cutaway.

 

A freighter attempted rescue alongside a few hours into this ordeal. After repeatedly bashing the side of Rainmaker, rescue was deemed too dangerous, and airlift was requested. We will not know the extent of the damage until we recover her. She was structurally intact with no water ingress.

 

<snip>

 

Ouch!! The question remains, why were they so desperate to attempt such a damaging maneuver?

 

I've never heard the term "longeron" either - the sprit in the middle, I guess?

 

41-building-of-moonwave-aug-before-hitti

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they are great boats and both of the threads on this are a pretty pathetic display of a bunch of computer jockeys criticizing people who are actually doing something pretty cool - in the real world

Oh no. You can't be that naive? There are legitimate questions here about route planning. What else do you expect from forum discussions? Nothing but prayers and praise?

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What is a longeron?

 

What's a weather forecast?

What's an inner coastal waterway?

Uhhh, a route crossed by fixed bridges 19 feet lower than the air draft of a Gunboat 55?

 

The math does not appear to favor the ICW as an option...

Should be easy enough to unstep the rig, motor down the ICW, and restep in Charleston. Result: no rig loss, no boat damage, no CG lives risked. They took a big gamble, and lost. I have to question that decision.

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Do find it interesting that it looks like the U.S. Coast Guard SOP is to work from the water, whereas on this side of the pond they put the guy on the wire onto the boat, using a highline.

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First off, glad they are all safe and what a wonderful job the USCG did.

 

That out of the way, here's the problem beyond the decision making process that went into leaving the dock. When does a skipper know the benign looking squall will not pack a whole lot more then is expected? This is the same thing that happened to the Atlantic 57 that went over, "it looked like all the other squalls we had been sailing through all day". The guys on Rainmaker were very fortunate to loose the rig instead of being upside down.

 

This is the ultimate fail for any multihull, they are not self rescuing.

 

http://www.syanna-kellywright.com/LossOfAnna.html

 

This morning's update: Sustained winds were 30-35 knots. Squalls had been in the 40 knot range for most of the day. A full whiteout squall hit that initially looked no different than the other squalls. Sails were up as there was no indication of squalls with winds above 40 knots. A wall of wind hit at up to 70 knots. There was no opportunity to get the sails down. The mast came down with the wall of wind. Am simply relieved these guys are all safe.

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This picture is of a GB 60 not the 55. The big difference is the 60 has crossbeams that hold the longeron as shown in this picture. On the 55 there are no crossbeams and just cables that keep it in place but always needs to be under tension. The forestay is needed to hold it up as pointed out in earlier posts.

 

I am no expert on the word "longeron" but the reason it is not called a sprit is the longeron is one continue massive piece of carbon the runs from just in front of the mast about 12' out in front of forestay. It is a structural part of the boat as you can see in this picture.


41-building-of-moonwave-aug-before-hitti

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No doubt they are great boats.

OTOH I have been across the Gulf Stream many times, been beat on by breaking waves that came from 3 directions, and otherwise know why this was a really bad time to be out there. Going out in the North Atlantic in a January storm with wind against current isn't cool, it is a really bad idea.

they are great boats and both of the threads on this are a pretty pathetic display of a bunch of computer jockeys criticizing people who are actually doing something pretty cool - in the real world

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Sorry us7070, but I don't see anything "cool" about what these guys did... I think that going out in those conditions was irresponsible, unseamanlike and very unprofessional.

 

I suppose you think what Team Vestas did was "cool" as well?

 

they are great boats and both of the threads on this are a pretty pathetic display of a bunch of computer jockeys criticizing people who are actually doing something pretty cool - in the real world

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This picture is of a GB 60 not the 55. The big difference is the 60 has crossbeams that hold the longeron as shown in this picture. On the 55 there are no crossbeams and just cables that keep it in place but always needs to be under tension. The forestay is needed to hold it up as pointed out in earlier posts.

 

I am no expert on the word "longeron" but the reason it is not called a sprit is the longeron is one continue massive piece of carbon the runs from just in front of the mast about 12' out in front of forestay. It is a structural part of the boat as you can see in this picture.

 

Oh! I see, thanks. No forward beam to support it on the 55. Still, it appears to be in approximately the correct position in the

and 2:52.

 

gb_rainmaker_vid.jpg

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Yeah, pretty uncool to criticize a sailor for not checking the chart and crashing into an island. And, wondering why the most expensive brand of catamaran you can buy is losing rigs is pretty pathetic.

 

Nice post. A real winner.

 

 

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Just trying to get my head around the passage planning here:

Assuming Thursday departure, set off into 25 knots knowing you had 12 hours close to a lee shore banging your head against the elements. Also enjoy forecasted 6-8m seas. Then all hell breaks loose with forecasts up to 50 knots as you cross the gulf stream. Conversely, leave on Saturday and enjoy a nice downwind run in 15-20 knots, possibly even drop into a 20-25 knot broad reaching groove with 3m seas all the way to Bermuda.

 

Am I missing something here?

 

A lee shore with wind from the NW? I don't see it that way. Gale force winds blowing offshore can produce ideal conditions for fast sailing in flat water if you stay close enough to shore (ten to twenty miles), minimizing the fetch. However, that doesn't appear to be the course they followed.

 

That might well be the case, but actually Thursday started out with 25 knot easterlies! ;-)

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So it seems that they took a pretty good blast of wind causing the rig to fail. Still, is the failure appropriate? The boat is equipped with sheets that dump upon reaching some indicator, wind speed or sheet tension? I guess it is better than capsize, but are those the only choices? Shouldn't the sails blow out before the rig comes down?

 

Why did Phaedo's rig come down? Someone on the other thread implied too much racing.

 

I can only imagine the heartbreak at Gunboat. It is obvious that they put their heart and soul into their boats. They sure are sweet. But questions about the engineering of the rigs are fair game, and I have no doubt Gunboat will get to the bottom of it.

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Oh yes, it is certainly "trolling" to ask these very relevant questions. Nice post. Another real winner.

 

Jzk is a king troll everyone. I'd suggest you pay him little heed.

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But questions about the engineering of the rigs are fair game

 

No, not really.

Why not?

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No doubt they are great boats.

OTOH I have been across the Gulf Stream many times, been beat on by breaking waves that came from 3 directions, and otherwise know why this was a really bad time to be out there. Going out in the North Atlantic in a January storm with wind against current isn't cool, it is a really bad idea.

 

they are great boats and both of the threads on this are a pretty pathetic display of a bunch of computer jockeys criticizing people who are actually doing something pretty cool - in the real world

I agree. There's no need to stir up a mono vs. multi debate here. Going out into the N Atlantic in those conditions in ANY boat is a poor decision. It appears their planning optimistically assumed a best-case scenario, which proved to be faulty...same as happened to the Bounty, though fortunately without fatalities.

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No doubt they are great boats.

OTOH I have been across the Gulf Stream many times, been beat on by breaking waves that came from 3 directions, and otherwise know why this was a really bad time to be out there. Going out in the North Atlantic in a January storm with wind against current isn't cool, it is a really bad idea.

 

they are great boats and both of the threads on this are a pretty pathetic display of a bunch of computer jockeys criticizing people who are actually doing something pretty cool - in the real world

I agree. There's no need to stir up a mono vs. multi debate here. Going out into the N Atlantic in those conditions in ANY boat is a poor decision. It appears their planning optimistically assumed a best-case scenario, which proved to be faulty...same as happened to the Bounty, though fortunately without fatalities.

Questioning the decision to knowingly go out in that weather is fair. But what if you are caught in weather like that which couldn't be anticipated? Then what? Then would it be ok to try to ensure you have a sound vessel to get you through it?

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But questions about the engineering of the rigs are fair game

 

No, not really.

Why not?

 

  1. You don't know shit about their engineering, other than GB has an excellent reputation in that dept.
  2. The other factors here related to weather and route planning are far bigger factors.
  3. Sail handling questions would come before engineering.

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But questions about the engineering of the rigs are fair game

 

No, not really.

Why not?

 

  1. You don't know shit about their engineering, other than GB has an excellent reputation in that dept.
  2. The other factors here related to weather and route planning are far bigger factors.
  3. Sail handling questions would come before engineering.

Ridiculous. What a complete joke of a post. We, as consumers, don't have the right to question a sailboat's engineering? Since when did it become appropriate for improper sail handling to cause rig failures?

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What is a longeron?

 

 

What's a weather forecast?

What's an inner coastal waterway?

Uhhh, a route crossed by fixed bridges 19 feet lower than the air draft of a Gunboat 55?

 

The math does not appear to favor the ICW as an option...

Point taken Jon, forgot about all the 65' bridges....

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If the rig holds the longeron up (against the whisker stays), when the rig comes down the longeron would presumably drop and be held up (loosely) by the tramps or if they failed, the whisker stays (it would then probably be under water). In any event her forward hull sections would presumably have to 'fend for themselves' then without any support forward (ala crossbeam) ? I guess this points to how remarkably well constructed they must be to be able to withstand the varying and independent sheer forces they would experience from the seas, given how long they are forward of the wing deck.

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No doubt they are great boats.

OTOH I have been across the Gulf Stream many times, been beat on by breaking waves that came from 3 directions, and otherwise know why this was a really bad time to be out there. Going out in the North Atlantic in a January storm with wind against current isn't cool, it is a really bad idea.

 

 

 

they are great boats and both of the threads on this are a pretty pathetic display of a bunch of computer jockeys criticizing people who are actually doing something pretty cool - in the real world

I agree. There's no need to stir up a mono vs. multi debate here. Going out into the N Atlantic in those conditions in ANY boat is a poor decision. It appears their planning optimistically assumed a best-case scenario, which proved to be faulty...same as happened to the Bounty, though fortunately without fatalities.
Questioning the decision to knowingly go out in that weather is fair. But what if you are caught in weather like that which couldn't be anticipated? Then what? Then would it be ok to try to ensure you have a sound vessel to get you through it?
The deteriorated weather is exactly what is common in N Atlantic winter. It was anticipated and forecasted. Even if you're planning to make an offshore passage in a nice weather window, you still have to be prepared to handle a worse case weather situation. It's why people don't make offshore passages in the Carribean during hurricane season. Yea, most of the time it's sunny and 18-20... but it can turn into 90 in 36 hours. If the crew felt it necessary to abandon the boat faced with deteriorating weather, then they were unprepared to make the trip and exercised poor judgement in leaving. Calling the CG for rescue shouldn't be Plan B, it should be Plan Z.

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If you - as a consumer - wanted to buy a boat and indicated winter North Atlantic storms were going to be your use for the boat, you might have got this instead of a racing cat.

307.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

But questions about the engineering of the rigs are fair game

 

No, not really.

Why not?

 

  1. You don't know shit about their engineering, other than GB has an excellent reputation in that dept.
  2. The other factors here related to weather and route planning are far bigger factors.
  3. Sail handling questions would come before engineering.

Ridiculous. What a complete joke of a post. We, as consumers, don't have the right to question a sailboat's engineering? Since when did it become appropriate for improper sail handling to cause rig failures?

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What RKoch said.

There is a very high chance conditions - forecasts might change over a 5 day passage in the North Atlantic in late January. But still, , it's 'cool' to spend a couple of hundred thousand dollars on a real world rescue of some numbnuts testing the theory.

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Well, now you are answering the question. And that may be the answer. but the control freak said that the question itself was not fair game. I suspect that if you ask Gunboat at the boat show whether their rigs are suitable for winter north Atlantic storms, their answer would be yes. What happened to Phaeto's rig? What kind of storm were they in?

 

If you - as a consumer - wanted to buy a boat and indicated winter North Atlantic storms were going to be your use for the boat, you might have got this instead of a racing cat.

307.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  1. You don't know shit about their engineering, other than GB has an excellent reputation in that dept.
  2. The other factors here related to weather and route planning are far bigger factors.
  3. Sail handling questions would come before engineering.

Ridiculous. What a complete joke of a post. We, as consumers, don't have the right to question a sailboat's engineering? Since when did it become appropriate for improper sail handling to cause rig failures?

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What is a longeron?

 

What's a weather forecast?

What's an inner coastal waterway?

Uhhh, a route crossed by fixed bridges 19 feet lower than the air draft of a Gunboat 55?

 

The math does not appear to favor the ICW as an option...

Should be easy enough to unstep the rig, motor down the ICW, and restep in Charleston. Result: no rig loss, no boat damage, no CG lives risked. They took a big gamble, and lost. I have to question that decision.

 

Sorry, but dropping the rig and motoring down the Ditch, well... that's never gonna happen with a Gunboat 55, in The Real World... :-)

 

The were apparently bound for the Miami Boat Show, so that helps explain the schedule they might have been sailing to... What i have to question, is what they were doing so far offshore... (Anyone know their precise position, btw?) I hadn't been paying close attention to the weather around the time of their departure, so this is all in hindsight, without benefit of what they were dealing with in their initial passage planning, but...

 

Not everyone endorses this (Don Street, among others, thinks it's nuts to round Hatteras inshore of the Stream), but my inclination going around Hatteras when continuing down the coast, is to just run down the beach to that red nun #2 right off Diamond Shoals, then angle off towards Cape Lookout Shoals to remain inshore of the Stream. The biggest additional benefit of doing so, of course, is keeping Beaufort/Wrightsville/Charleston, etc. close at hand as potential bail out/pit stops...

 

But again, if there were indeed Easterlies in the initial forecast as someone has already indicated, that turns the Outer Banks N of Hatteras into one of the most feared lee shores anywhere... but in a boat capable of such speed, hovering around the Chesapeake Entrance until conditions favor making the dash around Diamond Shoals inshore of the Stream can be a pretty good way to go, in my opinion...

 

If nothing else, it might have resulted in a shorter ride in a CG helo... ;-)

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What's the Atlantic, in Winter, with a record NE'r kicking up the shit?

 

No shit. GB's PR is in full swing to make this smell a lot better than it appears. The weather has been complete shit for weeks. Hey, I got an idea...

 

 

i am not sure why anyone thinks it is PJ or GB's responsibility to pick a departure window for the owner and his pro crew...

 

Sure, it seems like it was a bad decision - but people make bad decisions every day.., just lucky everyone is ok

 

The USCG practices this stuff every day - i think they like doing it.., I also think they know their safety margins pretty well, and don't need us to advise them on it.

 

rigs have come down on high performance sailboats for how long...? Let met think... Oh.., pretty much since sailboats were invented.

 

maybe it was a design flaw in the boat or the rig.., maybe it was a manufacturing flaw in the boat or the rig.., maybe it was operator error.., maybe it was a combination of some or all of those possibilities.

 

I hope we find out what happened so the boat and rig system can be improved, if needed.

 

they are great boats and both of the threads on this are a pretty pathetic display of a bunch of computer jockeys criticizing people who are actually doing something pretty cool - in the real world

Niagara Falls/barrels ? That's pretty cool too!

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Do find it interesting that it looks like the U.S. Coast Guard SOP is to work from the water, whereas on this side of the pond they put the guy on the wire onto the boat, using a highline.

It's the first time that I have seen a US winchman stay on the wire, usually he swims about and sends the casualties up on their own. That seems like a mad system to me

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Do find it interesting that it looks like the U.S. Coast Guard SOP is to work from the water, whereas on this side of the pond they put the guy on the wire onto the boat, using a highline.

It's the first time that I have seen a US winchman stay on the wire, usually he swims about and sends the casualties up on their own. That seems like a mad system to me

 

In the UK most times the guy on the wire stays with the wire.

 

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It's heartbreaking when any boat loses a rig and CG rescues happen but it shouldn't be used as a feeding frenzy to go after Gunboat or multihulls in general. As Peter noted his boats and rigs have endured more miles in an arguably shorter amount of time then most designs and have stood the test very well.

 

That patch of water is arguably the most stressful stretch that Ive had to transit on deliveries in the past and I'm glad that things didn't turn out worse. Squall sailing is something that I don't think many West coast sailors have much experience or intricate knowledge of but having spent most of my early sailing life back east it certainly can make for some hairy sailing and is usually unavoidable any time of year...

 

A quick link to understanding the transit of this area for all you west coasties.... Maybe help enlighten and explain the navigational decisions made by Rainmakers capt and crew

 

http://www.wavetrain.net/techniques-a-tactics/153-cape-hatteras-transit-strategies

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well, i can see that i didn't do a good job of making myself clear...

 

i think it's fine to criticize the decision to leave port - I did it _myself_, both in this post, and in an earlier one above it

 

the computer jockey criticism i was referring to was the criticism directed at PJ and GB - not the criticism directed at the crew.

 

It seemed like some people - in this thread and the other thread - were implying that it was PJ's responsibility to stop them from leaving

 

and, the "people doing something cool in the real world" referred to the people who are designing, building, and buying Gunboats - not the people doing the delivery

 

it seems to me that many of the GB threads on SA attract a fair number of people who either don't like PJ, or don't like GB.., or have some other problem.., and are just hoping the whole project will fail..., when they themselves have probably never accomplished much besides pecking away at their computer.

 

These are great boats - sure there have been problems, just like any boat that pushes the boundaries a bit.

 

I'm sure PJ would say he has learned a lot since he started the project - but he and his clients are doing something pretty cool, and I think the glee with which some people here view any problem is pathetic.

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Right. But when a failure happens, can we ask questions about it?

 

Gunboat is a sweet boat. I am not sure it is worth the money, and I don't think I like the steering wheel inside. If there is a problem with the rig specifications, it can certainly be fixed. Should it be fixed, or do we pretend the failure didn't happen because it is not "nice" to talk about it?

 

It's heartbreaking when any boat loses a rig and CG rescues happen but it shouldn't be used as a feeding frenzy to go after Gunboat or multihulls in general. As Peter noted his boats and rigs have endured more miles in an arguably shorter amount of time then most designs and have stood the test very well.

That patch of water is arguably the most stressful stretch that Ive had to transit on deliveries in the past and I'm glad that things didn't turn out worse. Squall sailing is something that I don't think many West coast sailors have much experience or intricate knowledge of but having spent most of my early sailing life back east it certainly can make for some hairy sailing and is usually unavoidable any time of year...

A quick link to understanding the transit of this area for all you west coasties.... Maybe help enlighten and explain the navigational decisions made by Rainmakers capt and crew

http://www.wavetrain.net/techniques-a-tactics/153-cape-hatteras-transit-strategies

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Oh great more threads where many folks who don't have a fraction of the offshore experience of this crew post critical comments of their every move, absent insight to the specific circumstances. For sure, the designer is an idiot, the router a fool, and the skipper and crew lacking completely compared to those here. :wacko: We are certain to hear from those aboard and be able to learn something factual.

 

Would be interested to hear from the crew about the estimated wind speed, direction, sea state at the time of dismasting but somehow I doubt they will be posting here. There have been a number of dismastings of larger performance multis of late and wondering if they were all synthetic rigged. I don't pretend to know the answer but am curious if the shockloads associated w multis are less well understood and an issue for synthetic rigging on multis. Doubt its so but am curious given the (apparent/maybe) trend.

 

Carry on.

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I like gunboat. Having met Peter and talked to him on numerous occasions, I like him too.

 

But if there is something wrong with the rigs, can we discuss it here over at "sailing anarchy?" Or are we only "allowed" to criticize hunters and macreggor 26s?

well, i can see that i didn't do a good job of making myself clear...

 

i think it's fine to criticize the decision to leave port - I did it _myself_, both in this post, and in an earlier one above it

 

the computer jockey criticism i was referring to was the criticism directed at PJ and GB - not the criticism directed at the crew.

 

It seemed like some people - in this thread and the other thread - were implying that it was PJ's responsibility to stop them from leaving

 

and, the "people doing something cool in the real world" referred to the people who are designing, building, and buying Gunboats - not the people doing the delivery

 

it seems to me that many of the GB threads on SA attract a fair number of people who either don't like PJ, or don't like GB.., or have some other problem.., and are just hoping the whole project will fail..., when they themselves have probably never accomplished much besides pecking away at their computer.

 

These are great boats - sure there have been problems, just like any boat that pushes the boundaries a bit.

 

I'm sure PJ would say he has learned a lot since he started the project - but he and his clients are doing something pretty cool, and I think the glee with which some people here view any problem is pathetic.

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I like gunboat. Having met Peter and talked to him on numerous occasions, I like him too.

 

But if there is something wrong with the rigs, can we discuss it here over at "sailing anarchy?" Or are we only "allowed" to criticize hunters and macreggor 26s?

well, i can see that i didn't do a good job of making myself clear...

 

i think it's fine to criticize the decision to leave port - I did it _myself_, both in this post, and in an earlier one above it

 

the computer jockey criticism i was referring to was the criticism directed at PJ and GB - not the criticism directed at the crew.

 

It seemed like some people - in this thread and the other thread - were implying that it was PJ's responsibility to stop them from leaving

 

and, the "people doing something cool in the real world" referred to the people who are designing, building, and buying Gunboats - not the people doing the delivery

 

it seems to me that many of the GB threads on SA attract a fair number of people who either don't like PJ, or don't like GB.., or have some other problem.., and are just hoping the whole project will fail..., when they themselves have probably never accomplished much besides pecking away at their computer.

 

These are great boats - sure there have been problems, just like any boat that pushes the boundaries a bit.

 

I'm sure PJ would say he has learned a lot since he started the project - but he and his clients are doing something pretty cool, and I think the glee with which some people here view any problem is pathetic.

 

well, you don't need my permission - you can say whatever you like

 

and criticism is usually a good thing - i'm all for discussing the rig failures on this and any boat

 

it was the gleeful attitude that i thought was pathetic

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I like gunboat. Having met Peter and talked to him on numerous occasions, I like him too.

 

But if there is something wrong with the rigs, can we discuss it here over at "sailing anarchy?" Or are we only "allowed" to criticize hunters and macreggor 26s?

well, i can see that i didn't do a good job of making myself clear...

 

i think it's fine to criticize the decision to leave port - I did it _myself_, both in this post, and in an earlier one above it

 

the computer jockey criticism i was referring to was the criticism directed at PJ and GB - not the criticism directed at the crew.

 

It seemed like some people - in this thread and the other thread - were implying that it was PJ's responsibility to stop them from leaving

 

and, the "people doing something cool in the real world" referred to the people who are designing, building, and buying Gunboats - not the people doing the delivery

 

it seems to me that many of the GB threads on SA attract a fair number of people who either don't like PJ, or don't like GB.., or have some other problem.., and are just hoping the whole project will fail..., when they themselves have probably never accomplished much besides pecking away at their computer.

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