• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Bob Perry

My newest project

Recommended Posts

Somehow I get clients that are all over the map in terms of their idea of the "perfect boat". I'm not complaining. I really like the idea that I get to stretch myself all over the various types of boats. I think of ICON, the Baba 30, FT10m, Container cruiser, Scorpio 72, Kim's boat, Dave's perfect boat and there are not many types I have not tackled. My newest client wants a very traditional cutter that he can sail to New Zealand.

I'll get more into the specifics of the design as it progresses but I can tell you now that he likes the sail plan and basic configuration of the keel. He wants a "full keel" and I have managed to convince him that this keel is full enough. Note that this print chops off the trailing edge of the keel but you can see where it goes. I want a balanced outboard rudder. The client wants an outboard rudder and a tiller. The general look is with much respect to Bill Atkin's TALLY HO MAJOR. I showed the client TALLY HO MAJOR at our second meeting and the hook was set.

 

Griot%20pub%20SP%20TL_zpsub23zpcx.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As long as I hold a piece of paper on my monitor and block out the waterline and below...I really like it :)

 

I had an outboard rudder on our old CS27 and really liked it after I extended some the leading edge to get some balance (it was a brute until I did that)...

 

Handsome boat, it'll be fun to watch it evolve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely like the bow.

 

To my eye there could be a little more freeboard at midships going to the stern. Is the foredeck hatch that big? Not sure why it need to stick up over the sheer at the bow. Again just a personal preference but I think the leading edge of the coachroof could be a little more angled, looks pretty sharp as is.

 

Looks like there's a hefty toerail? That's nice. Boats like this should have massive toerails. it just fits.

 

Love the overall shape though, reminds me of the Jolie Brise and other pilot cutters. Too bad the client wants a full keel...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the help of TomL I was able to get a better image. The WLYDO strikes again.

Pub%20sp%20toml%202_zpslgxw6dg0.jpg

 

Skosher:

Thanks.

Bow profile is from TALLY HO MAJOR and defines this boat as not another Bristol Channel cutter. It's an American variation.

Not sure you are reading the drawing correctly.

What you are seeing ( I think) as the "forard hatch" is really a small cabin trunk with two hatches on it, one for the head and the other for the shower. The forward, deck hatch is on the deck and you don;t see it in profile.

On the sheer. TFB, that's the way I want it. I want a bold sheer and I never add freeboard if I don't have to.

The angles will stay authentic to the look of the Atkin boats, i.e. boxy and "sharp". It's all part of the vintage look I am after when cabin trunks were built from massive mahogany planks.

There is no toe rail. There is a 6" high bulwark. Probably a semantic error on your part.

JOLIE BRISE is one of my all time favorite boats. Pretty sure I can't rise to that level. I appreciate that compliment though.

I had quite a battle convincing the client that this is a "full keel".
"OK, Ok,,,,,it's fullish."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just finished my next batch of SAILING reviews. I did three boats, two Euro types and the new Hinckley, a quasi Euro type. You have no idea how happy it makes my curmudgeonly heart to look at my new design and know how very different it is from current offerings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just finished my next batch of SAILING reviews. I did three boats, two Euro types and the new Hinckley, a quasi Euro type. You have no idea how happy it makes my curmudgeonly heart to look at my new design and know how very different it is from current offerings.

interested in what you have to say about the Hinkley....big departure from their "traditional" styles....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bow profile is from TALLY HO MAJOR and defines this boat as not another Bristol Channel cutter. It's an American variation.

Not sure you are reading the drawing correctly.

What you are seeing ( I think) as the "forard hatch" is really a small cabin trunk with two hatches on it, one for the head and the other for the shower. The forward, deck hatch is on the deck and you don;t see it in profile.

On the sheer. TFB, that's the way I want it. I want a bold sheer and I never add freeboard if I don't have to.

The angles will stay authentic to the look of the Atkin boats, i.e. boxy and "sharp". It's all part of the vintage look I am after when cabin trunks were built from massive mahogany planks.

There is no toe rail. There is a 6" high bulwark. Probably a semantic error on your part.

JOLIE BRISE is one of my all time favorite boats. Pretty sure I can't rise to that level. I appreciate that compliment though.

I had quite a battle convincing the client that this is a "full keel".

"OK, Ok,,,,,it's fullish."

 

Yup, definitely wasn't looking at it right, thanks for the correction.

 

Bulwark. That's the word I was looking for. It really fits on a boat like this. I think it makes it feel more shippy, and gives me a sense of security when I'm standing on the deck. Out of place on some boats, but not something like this.

 

I would say my favorite classic designers of all time are Bill Atkin and John Alden. Looks like this boat will follow in their tradition, and with a more modern rig the performance should be way better than what they had.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what's not to like? Big and powerful, set the wind vane, grab a book and make some tea.

 

Curious about the "twin engine"? Diesel + Generator?

Diesel electric with 2 engines, one as backup?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dacapo:

I like the new Hinckley but it is far more in the Euro vain for styling than it is a Bermuda 40. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Skosher:

Yeah, there is that moments when a "toe rail" becomes a bulwark. In this case a svelte toe rail did not suit the look I was after. The bulwark will be an expensive detail but integral to the look and function of this boat.

Jim Betts in Anacortes will build the boat. Jim is a very nice one hour drive from my shack so I really look forward to making a pest of myself at the yard during this project. Jim and I get along well and I have a feeling that this is going to be a lot of fun. I am really bonding with this design.

 

Flash:

My client says, "If it's mechanical it will break." So he wants two engines. We are looking at upper 20hp Yanmars and Volvos at this time.

There will be a windvane. I need to find out how to rig an auto pilot to that tiller. Ideas?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely beautiful. Looks perfect for comfortable long distance sail

Will it be able to back under power in the desired direction or will it be a crapshoot like my BCC ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just finished my next batch of SAILING reviews. I did three boats, two Euro types and the new Hinckley, a quasi Euro type. You have no idea how happy it makes my curmudgeonly heart to look at my new design and know how very different it is from current offerings.

I don't know about others here but it makes me damn happy as well. What a boring world it would be if all the boats were the same boring ultra modern Euro style. No character to them IMHO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

James:

My hope is that with the big, semi balanced rudder and twin engines this boat will not need a thruster. But I can;t guarantee anything having never designed a boat like this or operated a boat like this. I would not like it to be a "crapshoot". If my inclinations are correct it will be a docile and compliant boat under power in either direction.

 

Ed:

Thanks muchly. I'm pretty bored with the current range of production boats. I want to do boats that catch the eye and make a statement of their own. If I have to borrow from tradition to do that then I will but at the same time add my own twist to try and get the performance as good as possible by today's standards. I have a set of lines but I fear the boat is a bit too portly right now. I need to put it on a diet. I have an interior layout so I now know what I need in terms of volume. I'll go back and take another whack at the hull shape and see if I can trim some fat. FWIW, using an 8% thickness ratio on that keel I get almost 7,000 lbs. of disp just in the keel. WHL and I did some foil research and settled on the NACA 64-A008 foil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about a single engine with hydraulically driven props. I mow the lawn with a Toro commercial mower with hydraulic drive and it turns on a plate. Would seem to be simpler and put the engine weight in the center.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dacapo:

I like the new Hinckley but it is far more in the Euro vain for styling than it is a Bermuda 40. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Skosher:

Yeah, there is that moments when a "toe rail" becomes a bulwark. In this case a svelte toe rail did not suit the look I was after. The bulwark will be an expensive detail but integral to the look and function of this boat.

Jim Betts in Anacortes will build the boat. Jim is a very nice one hour drive from my shack so I really look forward to making a pest of myself at the yard during this project. Jim and I get along well and I have a feeling that this is going to be a lot of fun. I am really bonding with this design.

 

Flash:

My client says, "If it's mechanical it will break." So he wants two engines. We are looking at upper 20hp Yanmars and Volvos at this time.

There will be a windvane. I need to find out how to rig an auto pilot to that tiller. Ideas?

 

 

 

I can't think of any autopilot to tiller that doesn't look odd. If he's really concerned about reliability - that means under deck, and to route above deck means a hole in the deck, probably not acceptable.

 

This might be really odd, but what about an actuator arm that goes out the transom and attaches to the vane mechanism? I know there are some cruisers that use a simple tiller pilot attached to the mechanical advantage of the vane, they only have to move the trim tab, not the whole rudder. I'm thinking a stainless rod that comes right out of the transom, right below deck level, and moves fore/aft ala a whip staff. attached to either a steering yoke on the rudder head or the vane mechanism.

 

Or - reverse that. a push.pull rod comes out under the tiller, offset to one side, and attached to an arm perpendicular to the tiller?

 

Maybe all too complex. how about an upside down whip staff? An arrangement with the autopilot below deck, under the tiller, mounted perpendicular to the tiller. It's drive rod connects to a rod that goes up through the deck on one side of the tiller, and has a connecting rod to the tiller. All you'd see is a little vertical rod that moves transversely, connected by a joint to a rod that goes to the tiller.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Flash:

I'm thinking along the same lines, an underdeck installation with a tiller arm on the rudder coming through its own slot in the transom. I am also thinking about a trim tab type arrangement but I know very little about how that is done. I have out WHL on this aspect of the project. He's smart.

 

TomL:

He wants twin engines. It's all about having twin engines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Flash:

I'm thinking along the same lines, an underdeck installation with a tiller arm on the rudder coming through its own slot in the transom. I am also thinking about a trim tab type arrangement but I know very little about how that is done. I have out WHL on this aspect of the project. He's smart.

 

TomL:

He wants twin engines. It's all about having twin engines.

 

do they operate simultaneously (like a cat, or a jet for that matter)? or is one purely a backup?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both engines will work at once. ( In a perfect world)

The in line tandems engines is an interesting idea but I do not have the fore and aft room for that kind of installation. It would require a shaft and a P bracket and that takes up room in the boat with the shaft log and the stuffing box and it becomes a real spacial nightmare. We want simplicity. I would never go hydraulic drive,,,,again.

 

Keep the ideas coming. If I get one good idea for every six "fer fucks sake" ideas then I'm doing good.

 

I had a good buddy who was the pro on a big Oyster. It has twin Mercedes engines. I asked him how he liked the twin engines. He said he really liked that arrangement. I asked him why.

He said, "I can sit on one engine while I look at the other and decide what to fix next."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very cool - I've long wanted to see you do an updated Channel Cutterish type. Too bad the owner won't let you do more of a Nightrunner thing with the underbody. The twin engines are pretty eccentric for a boat that is so far from a motorsailer type but they should make a big difference in close quarters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The in line tandems engines is an interesting idea but I do not have the fore and aft room for that kind of installation. It would require a shaft and a P bracket and that takes up room in the boat with the shaft log and the stuffing box and it becomes a real spacial nightmare. We want simplicity. I would never go hydraulic drive,,,,again.

 

I think hydraulics have been refined a lot since the old IOR days. All the farm equipment is run with hydraulic drives and pumps, and in the nearly three years I have been here, I have not seen a piece of equipment stranded because of a hydraulic failure. Well there is one exception, an old bucket lift, but it is as old as the hydraulic drives you hate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope so Jon. They will only be 20" off centerline, 40" apart. But I think that has to help in the marina. I just have no experience with a boat like this so I am strictly going by my feel and inclinations at this stage. I'd love to get opposing rotation sail drives but I doubt they are available. I'll look into it.

 

Flash:

I discussed that with the client and got a resounding "no". This client has a lot of experience with machinery and diesel engines.

 

TomL;

Hydraulics would add another layer of complexity to the project and I do not want that and I assure you my client does not. SIMPLICITY! Say it over ten times. Say it in Danish if that helps Tom.

 

Thanks all for the feedback.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both engines will work at once. ( In a perfect world)

The in line tandems engines is an interesting idea but I do not have the fore and aft room for that kind of installation. It would require a shaft and a P bracket and that takes up room in the boat with the shaft log and the stuffing box and it becomes a real spacial nightmare. We want simplicity. I would never go hydraulic drive,,,,again.

 

Keep the ideas coming. If I get one good idea for every six "fer fucks sake" ideas then I'm doing good.

 

I had a good buddy who was the pro on a big Oyster. It has twin Mercedes engines. I asked him how he liked the twin engines. He said he really liked that arrangement. I asked him why.

He said, "I can sit on one engine while I look at the other and decide what to fix next."

 

 

Truly handsome boat, Bob. It all hangs together really well.

 

Re two engines - the vast majority of engine problems have to do with bad fuel and not the engine itself. Seems to me he'd be better off with a seriously well thought out fuel filtering system. Maybe complete redundancy in tanks and filtering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Monsy:

As I have said, the client WANTS twin engines. He is not new to maintaining diesels and has extensive experience with big trucks. He is not a young man. He is old and wise and confidently knows what he wants. It's my job to wrap that all into an attractive and effective package that has some eye appeal.

 

The client called me from LA last night and said, The more I look at it the more I like it." That's about as satisfying for me as a good lick on the nose from my dog.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am also thinking about a trim tab type arrangement but I know very little about how that is done.

 

I wanted to do a servo tab autopilot on my spade rudder, but none of the builders involved wanted to hear a bit of it. Seems to me that at the price of a bit of complexity (less so on an outboard rudder) you could cut your autopilot power budget to a small fraction.

 

Actually what I wanted to do was wiggier: have the spade rudder be overbalanced, and the tab is actually an anti-servo tab to keep it under control. This was invented for aircraft by a crazy Italian, but has been tested as a boat rudder. It increased the power of the rudder by something like 30% because it is a properly cambered airfoil when deflected either way. The only problem for a boat rudder was that it went a little nuts in reverse (but there are ways to address this). To take the idea further afield, I was intending to hook a mini-tiller to the linkage, it would have allowed steering my 45'er by the fingertips with a 12 or 18" tiller (because you are really just adjusting the tab linkage).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

auto-helm by Scanmar has some good photos of their trim tab system. Whats interesting is, as DDW says, the low load. It looks like they're using a push-pull cable as the device. That shows how low the loads really are. It also gives you a lot of flexibility in how you mount the electric autopilot...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having had twin engines on my catamaran, I found that they weren't really as problematic after all. Once you get past the cost, changing engine oil and filters is pretty much the worst of it. I had a SW pump get leaky on me on one engine but the cool thing is it's not the end of the world. You can survive for quite some time when one engine is a bit persnickety. If it's the only engine, you wouldn't like having to depend on it. Ultimately, I liked the peace of mind that having two engines brought. I didn't like doubling my fuel burn for the extra half knot of boat speed so usually made distance on only one engine and maneuvered with two (when I wasn't doing it under sail). Even with a 23' beam, I had less than a degree of rudder offset to travel in a straight line. At 40" apart and only 20" off centerline, with the correct prop rotation you might not even know the prop was offset.

 

Sounds like Perry University needs to offer a remedial course in "But the Client WANTS it"....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Need? No. They weren't on my cat but that's how most powerboats should be. It enables virtually walking the boat sideways. However, with, um, that there, full keel, then it probably won't be as effective in any event. My gut says that if they are opposite of the conventional twin screw, outward rotating props, then they might, (might) cancel/minimize the torque (EDIT -when on one engine only). Seems to me the old auxiliaries with an offset shaft would put a right handed prop on the port side. For conventional, POWERBOAT maneuvering, props should be outward turning. Inward turning twins might set up some interesting interactions.

 

Opposite rotation sail drives are hard to come by I think. This is a pretty heavy boat so rotation issues are probably pretty minor in actual practice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NA I am not, although I do work as a design engineer in the marine industry. I am always fascinated by Bob's threads about the development / evolution of the design of a client's boats and the collective input from the WLYDO. Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When looking at engines try to find ones where the dipstick and oil filters and other regular maintenance items can be located on either side, that way if you have them on the inboard side you don't have to crawl over one to do maintenance and you will gain some extra room for equipment outboard of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Need? No. They weren't on my cat but that's how most powerboats should be. It enables virtually walking the boat sideways. However, with, um, that there, full keel, then it probably won't be as effective in any event. My gut says that if they are opposite of the conventional twin screw, outward rotating props, then they might, (might) cancel/minimize the torque (EDIT -when on one engine only). Seems to me the old auxiliaries with an offset shaft would put a right handed prop on the port side. For conventional, POWERBOAT maneuvering, props should be outward turning. Inward turning twins might set up some interesting interactions.

 

Opposite rotation sail drives are hard to come by I think. This is a pretty heavy boat so rotation issues are probably pretty minor in actual practice.

 

 

Veeger,

 

We built a wave piercing 64' catamaran with BIG oversquare props and used the opposite rotation that most twin screw boats use. Tops of the blades turning outboard is the norm and with a Vee hard chine hull it is pretty obvious why. For some reason the powers that be did just the opposite and had the tops turning inboard for some not very well documented reason. Something about backing and prop walking. The first couple trips away from the dock were nuts and resulted in mayhem. The boat also had fly by wire shifting and the brains of the steering black box would not let the gearbox shift into reverse the boat had sufficient fwd speed and the props were still spinning. Once we got that sorted out, one of the skippers who would be driving the boat full time took his first turn at the helm on sea trial and had no better luck getting the boat docked. He was totally baffled and then pissed off when he learned the the props and gearboxes were installed opposite convention. He felt strongly that doing something like that 'just to be different' was totally irresponsive and didn't mind saying so. That was just the tip of the iceberg because the props would cavitate/ventilate badly due to being pitched to something like 36x42 which the prop company discouraged and put a clause in the work order that they wanted no part of the responsibility for that decision. Cavitation bubbles ended up eating up the spade rudders in under a year as well. The boat was eventually BALLASTED to get the props deeper so that they got a better bite. Makes one consider the prime directive of the scientific process, 'Just change one thing at a time!'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we just re-powered a 30ft cabin cruiser my grandpa built with twin 115 outboards. the yard installed them screwed in the same direction. once you hit about 15kts the boat pulls super hard to one side. trimming the engines up as you increase throttle makes this go away. takes a bit of getting used to controlling throttle and trim at the same time (you can't leave it trimmed up as you slow down or you get the opposite pull). but after an hour or two it's easy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had a lot of experience with tiller pilots in the 30 footer with an outboard rudder and a full keel.

She displaced 5 tons and was a handful in a following sea.

Finished one trip from Sydney to Hobart with three broken tiller pilots, Including a Raymarine 4000 and an SPX5, the biggest they make.

Thought a lot about this problem, easiest solution is a short tiller arm under the deck, through an aperture in the transom with some sort of seal to keep the sea out, and a type 1 or type 2 linear pilot mounted upside down under the deck.

The tiller length is only 250mm IIRC.

They have an electric clutch, but it is also easy to make a quick detach fitting so you connect the autopilot when it is needed, and take it off so there is no tiller drag.

Just need a hatch in the lazarette and voila, mega tiller pilot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Veegs:

Are you saying the props need to be counter rotating?

 

 

What a good idea ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had a lot of experience with tiller pilots in the 30 footer with an outboard rudder and a full keel.

She displaced 5 tons and was a handful in a following sea.

Finished one trip from Sydney to Hobart with three broken tiller pilots, two of them Raymarine 4000, the biggest they make.

Thought a lot about this problem, easiest solution is a short tiller arm under the deck, through an aperture in the transom with some sort of seal to keep the sea out, and a type 1 or type 2 linear pilot mounted upside down under the deck.

The tiller length is only 250mm IIRC.

They have an electric clutch, but it is also easy to make a quick detach fitting so you connect the autopilot when it is needed, and take it off so there is no tiller drag.

Just need a hatch in the lazarette and voila, mega tiller pilot.

I think Bob's balanced rudder will help a lot, but this seems like a good solution, if you don't mind the transom hole.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Need? No. They weren't on my cat but that's how most powerboats should be. It enables virtually walking the boat sideways. However, with, um, that there, full keel, then it probably won't be as effective in any event. My gut says that if they are opposite of the conventional twin screw, outward rotating props, then they might, (might) cancel/minimize the torque (EDIT -when on one engine only). Seems to me the old auxiliaries with an offset shaft would put a right handed prop on the port side. For conventional, POWERBOAT maneuvering, props should be outward turning. Inward turning twins might set up some interesting interactions.

 

Opposite rotation sail drives are hard to come by I think. This is a pretty heavy boat so rotation issues are probably pretty minor in actual practice.

 

 

Veeger,

 

We built a wave piercing 64' catamaran with BIG oversquare props and used the opposite rotation that most twin screw boats use. Tops of the blades turning outboard is the norm and with a Vee hard chine hull it is pretty obvious why. For some reason the powers that be did just the opposite and had the tops turning inboard for some not very well documented reason. Something about backing and prop walking. The first couple trips away from the dock were nuts and resulted in mayhem. The boat also had fly by wire shifting and the brains of the steering black box would not let the gearbox shift into reverse the boat had sufficient fwd speed and the props were still spinning. Once we got that sorted out, one of the skippers who would be driving the boat full time took his first turn at the helm on sea trial and had no better luck getting the boat docked. He was totally baffled and then pissed off when he learned the the props and gearboxes were installed opposite convention. He felt strongly that doing something like that 'just to be different' was totally irresponsive and didn't mind saying so. That was just the tip of the iceberg because the props would cavitate/ventilate badly due to being pitched to something like 36x42 which the prop company discouraged and put a clause in the work order that they wanted no part of the responsibility for that decision. Cavitation bubbles ended up eating up the spade rudders in under a year as well. The boat was eventually BALLASTED to get the props deeper so that they got a better bite. Makes one consider the prime directive of the scientific process, 'Just change one thing at a time!'

Yup, sounds like some veddy interestink 'interactions'!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Olaf's idea for the AP was what I had in mind. I'll get back to him for more details on this.

 

TomL: good to hear saildrives can be counter rotating.

 

Jose:

I'll email the client tonight and tell him to check on switchable sides for dip stick etc, He's looking at engines this week in LA.

 

Yep. good old WLYDO not to be underestimated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DDW:

I think you'll have a front row seat for this project if your boat is still in the shop when we start.. We'll work something out.

 

Cripes! I hope I'm not still there when you start in 2016! I intend to be in the water by June. But my boat might still be in Anacortes so I will visit.

 

Saildrives (at least the Volvo I have) can be set either way - you just reverse the lever on the transmission. Normally Volvos are set up left hand, I wanted right hand because that is what I was used to. Most of the props I inquired about could be ordered either way - though I was cautioned by Variprop (the first one I tried) that they would not take it back for this reason (and they didn't).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Olaf's idea for the AP was what I had in mind. I'll get back to him for more details on this.

 

TomL: good to hear saildrives can be counter rotating.

 

Jose:

I'll email the client tonight and tell him to check on switchable sides for dip stick etc, He's looking at engines this week in LA.

 

Yep. good old WLYDO not to be underestimated.

Second tiller arm doesn't even really need to be "under the deck" Deck could be recessed in the area where secondary tiller arm swings with linear drive mounted in an adjacent lazarette. Need a slot and seal for the drive arm, but just a detachable panel could cover the secondary tiller arm. That'd give easy "above deck access to tiller arm/drive connection, and not have on open slot in the transom that needs a seal or that water could directly enter through...

 

Would also allow you to attach line (via blocks?) to allow secondary tiller arm to act as emergency tiller if for any reason main tiller arm/attachment failed at sea...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately the Type 1 and Type 2 drives would not even be water resistant, so having them high up under the deck is the best option.

 

The above deck units usually fail from water damage, and they are designed to be waterproof.

 

The main problem is sealing the drive shaft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Webb Chiles went through a handful of them crossing the Pacific and they only had a Moore 24 to steer.

 

He sounded like he was going to start buying them in bulk in future.

 

It would appear they are really only coastal/daysailer quality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was once told that in order to do a deep water passage, one should buy three Casio watches, three Davis plastic sextants, and three AutoHelm tiller units. Pack one of each in waterproof plastic and stow securely. Repeat with the second set. That way you would have triple redundancy. Today, just replace the Davis sextant with a cheap handheld GPS and you are good to go. Of course today you would probably replace the three Casio watches with GoPro cameras to memorialize your voyage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dammit, Rasps, you still have that fucking scary clown as your avatar!!!!!!

 

From everything I've read related to the equipment you've discussed, the tiller pilots are the weak links. Webb Chiles burned thru three of them I think getting from the South Pacific to NZ.

 

My rebuilt ST2000 that I paid $75 for is holding up nicely so far.

 

I still don't like your avatar!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Count me among those following along for the vicarious thrill.

Hand it to Bob to balance a transom hung rudder; whatever the style, it'll sail great. - what's it called when you add the support at the bottom end? It's not 'skeg hung', but more like 'keel supported'. Whatever it is, it looks like great protection against groundings and other mishaps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I realize that the client gets what the client wants but I just can't reconcile the "simplicity" mantra with twin diesels on a sailboat. Simplicity is a rebuilt Ford Lehman, three stages of fuel filtration, and a lazarette full of spare parts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DDW, you are confusing projects. This is NOT Dave's boat. That OK. I hope you are gone when we start this one too. Time to get that boat back in the water!

 

OK, this one starting sooner? I gonna get outta there and make room...

 

On my boat the drag link for the main steering gear goes through the aft watertight bulkhead to the tiller arm. It's pretty protected as it is in the dinghy garage, but that is wet space. I used an industrial Hypalon bellows to seal it. Might be hard to make it look good though, on a pretty transom. Another reason to go with the servo tab - the linkage can be a lot smaller and more easily sealed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dacapo:

I like the new Hinckley but it is far more in the Euro vain for styling than it is a Bermuda 40. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Skosher:

Yeah, there is that moments when a "toe rail" becomes a bulwark. In this case a svelte toe rail did not suit the look I was after. The bulwark will be an expensive detail but integral to the look and function of this boat.

Jim Betts in Anacortes will build the boat. Jim is a very nice one hour drive from my shack so I really look forward to making a pest of myself at the yard during this project. Jim and I get along well and I have a feeling that this is going to be a lot of fun. I am really bonding with this design.

 

Flash:

My client says, "If it's mechanical it will break." So he wants two engines. We are looking at upper 20hp Yanmars and Volvos at this time.

There will be a windvane. I need to find out how to rig an auto pilot to that tiller. Ideas?

How to rig an autopilot to the tiller? Pin on tiller and socket on cap rail. Raymarine EV 100 tiller pack or custom hydraulic like I have.

Why is the huge aperture more efficient/desirable than a small aperture?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am surprised that nobody has suggested the simple way of having twin engines: one at each end.

 

Stern engine in the usual way.

 

Bow engine under the v-berth, driving one of those rotating saildrives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The keel and balanced transom-hung rudder remind me of some of Chuck Paine's revisions of his older designs. He even has a phrase in quotes for it - a "full flow aperture"

 

 

Annie-screenshot-From-Aft-600x342.jpg

 

This is from Annie 2. I think having the rudder with such a forward rake doesn't seem quite right, but the transom looks fine with it. Anyway, this is different from the "Brewer bite", which is a semicircle cut out of the bottom of the full keel ahead of the rudder, which is intended to reduce wetted area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ahl:

Bingo! Yep, I figured if Chuckles could do it I could do it better. As you correctly say, this has zero to do with the silly Brewer Bite and I should know. I'm the one who came up with that name.

 

GWB:

Can you post a pic of your ap arrangement please?

 

Twin engines:

I know you will get tired of hearing this but in the course of designing a custom boat it is my job to give the client what they want so long as it does not jeopardize the safety of the vessel. This client wants twin engines. I would be most happy to do a version for you with as many engines as you like. Make the check out to Bob Perry.

 

Kir:

Not sure what you call that kind of rudder heel. I'd just say the rudder is an outboard, semi balanced type with a heel support. We can call this rudder Reginald.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The twin engine concept is interesting. If he were to go the Diesel Electric route he could trail shaft and generate power while sailing. I look forward to see how you implement this aspect of the design. She is beautiful above and below the waterline and I think the frac rig is perfect for the intended use of passage making, much better options for sail combinations. As far as the autopilot and wind vane go, what about adopting something similar to what they did on the Freedom 40s with the tiller arm through the transom? Here is a self steer for an outboard rudder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as "through the transom" goes, the upper pintle could extend through the transom with an arm (tiller) rigged to below deck AP unit. You still have a lovely tiller with out gadgets attached and you get the reliability of a proven below deck AP. The arm would live in a small drained well with billowed or gasketed attachment to that standard AP unit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that is a terrific looking boat.

 

Just to add my two cents (probably not worth even that much), if the idea of two engines is to increase reliability, the most reliability will be gained (I believe) by having two complete and independent systems but allow for cross-connections.

 

For example, two separate fuel tanks, fuel filters and fuel pumps. But include a cross-connection so that one fuel system can supply either (or both) engines with fuel.

 

I spent some time on Navy ship with three engines and two shafts. Any or all engines could drive any or all shafts. For example, if you lost the mid and stbd engines and the port shaft, the port engine could drive the stbd shaft. I am not proposing this level of complexity but providing an example of how cross-connections allow you to use whatever bits that work to make the boat go.

 

Thanks to everyone (especially Bob P) for sharing so much on this thread: I learn a ton by reading this and really enjoy these threads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're not listening to Bob if you think Diesel/Electric or hydraulic propulsion is the way to go. The CLIENT says "I want simple twin diesels". Unless it's a really stupid idea, Bob says "OK". It's the client's custom boat. While I would also get a big bunch of spare parts and one engine, it's not my boat so I don't get to pick that option!

 

I'd probably avoid saildrives if he has any long distance plans; plain straight shafts can be fixed / straightened etc. in just about any 3rd world boatyard. If your saildrive fails, it's a harder item to fix.

 

Bob, you probably don't have sufficent room in a 42' boat, but MAYBE stagger the engines somewhat fore/aft (12-18") so side access is marginally improved? Not sure where you are with interior layout etc. and how far you've gotten. You won't get handed engine servicing with Yanmars or the like, but maybe handed dipsticks could be custom retrofitted. Easy to remote mount oil filters with a kit.

 

Autopilot thoughts:

 

The Raymarine EV100 and tiller drive is way undersized for a boat of this displacement.

 

Options for bigger tiller steered boats:

 

1) A remote mounted linear drive inside a stern locker as previously suggested

 

2) the cheap tiller pilot hooked up to a wind vane self steering gear as shown here:

 

http://www.selfsteer.com/products/monitor/autoPilot.php

 

3) a hydraulic cylinder that doesn't mind being wet (Teleflex outboard motor type steering cylinder) mounted externally to the tiller with a socket/pin connection so you can easily disengage it. Connect it to typical hydraulic pump powered autopilot. Draws more power than a linear drive but probably more reliable in the long run. The Open 40/60s that all have tillers typically use this sort of arrangement though some do use remote linear drives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Monsy:

As I have said, the client WANTS twin engines. He is not new to maintaining diesels and has extensive experience with big trucks. He is not a young man. He is old and wise and confidently knows what he wants. It's my job to wrap that all into an attractive and effective package that has some eye appeal.

 

The client called me from LA last night and said, The more I look at it the more I like it." That's about as satisfying for me as a good lick on the nose from my dog.

 

The more I look at it the more I like it, too.

 

I get that the client calls all the shots. Rightfully so. And probably more interesting for you since you get to design a much wider range of boats.

 

I also hear you that the client is experienced. But one person's experience, no matter how extensive is ONE person's experience. Part of the value of this place is you can tap into lots of peoples experiences. That and the jokes and barbs and boobs. Mustn't forget those.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ahl:

Bingo! Yep, I figured if Chuckles could do it I could do it better. As you correctly say, this has zero to do with the silly Brewer Bite and I should know. I'm the one who came up with that name.

 

GWB:

Can you post a pic of your ap arrangement please?

 

Twin engines:

I know you will get tired of hearing this but in the course of designing a custom boat it is my job to give the client what they want so long as it does not jeopardize the safety of the vessel. This client wants twin engines. I would be most happy to do a version for you with as many engines as you like. Make the check out to Bob Perry.

 

Kir:

Not sure what you call that kind of rudder heel. I'd just say the rudder is an outboard, semi balanced type with a heel support. We can call this rudder Reginald.

 

I'm not arguing with you or your client, Bob, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the stated motivation. The client can have whatever he wants and is willing to pay for, I get it. At the same time, both you and your client have an interest in him having a good post-build experience with the vessel. All I'm saying is that if the client has an overall goal for the project that's driving a major design decision that may undermine his goal, it might be worth talking more about it. It sounds like you already did something similar regarding the full keel. In this case, is the client's goal really simplicity or is it rather to have two engines for greater propulsion reliability?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jeez

 

I doubt this is a major design issue for Bob...and it's 400lbs to be located and accommodated. The boat is certainly not a pure performance cruiser (racer-cruiser) and everything about this design oozes toughness, reliability, strength, and seaworthness. I doubt the drag of another saildrive is of any consequence at all as far as this owner is concerned.

 

The true redundancy and reliability that 2 engines would give is out the window if they share any common systems...2 engines, 2 saildrives, two battery systems, independent fuel tanks, two engine "rooms", two control assemblies...now you have a true backup system configuration.

Two engines is a bit odd for a sailboat, but from a mechanical standpoint...it's an elementary school project.

 

The Client wants it...he's ready to give up the room to make it happen...Bob will do the best job possible to to fit the second engine comfortably into the design. I'm more interested to see how Bob works this in.

 

Two engines, two saildrives, two KIWI props (for reliability and repairability)...solved. Now move on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beautiful design.

 

I'll take one engine, thank you.

 

I imagine the boat will do just fine maneuvering given the unencumbered nature of the rudder. Obviously it's easy to imagine the boat tracking better than with a keel with a more modern aspect ratio.

 

Bob, can you give me your sense of how the interior volume would change with a more modern underbody like on Night Runner? Can you quantify the effect on freeboard?

 

Also, where does all the displacement come from if it's not the keel/underbody? I assume the 7,000 lbs you mention for the keel does not include the ballast? The ballast on my Sou'wester 42 is 8,500 lbs for a 25,000 boat. How will you put the boat on a "diet?" Where will you save the weight?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did a delivery on a Hinckley 64 that had twin diesels side by side and there seemed to be no reason to get more complicated than that. Offshore we would motor on one motor, the one under the offwatch stateroom. At watch shift, we would fire up the other engine and shut down the one that had been running and that made it a lot quieter for the offwatch. The skipper wound check the vital fluids just before lighting off the engine at the beginning of its cycle. I think that boat had several diesel tanks and a daytank and a nice manifold and dual filter system that allowed continual fuel polishing. I know about the day tank because I put water into it at the Royal Bermuda Yacht Club and almost got kicked off of the boat!

 

This Tally Ho inspired boat will be a joy to watch evolve as it always is when Bob shares his process. Long Live the WLYDO!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can't you have the tiller pilot activate the WIND Vane and have the vane move the tiller? so the tiller pilot takes over from the wind/vane when motoring. you have a wind vane so when you are sailing you don't need the tiller pilot.

Flash:

I'm thinking along the same lines, an underdeck installation with a tiller arm on the rudder coming through its own slot in the transom. I am also thinking about a trim tab type arrangement but I know very little about how that is done. I have out WHL on this aspect of the project. He's smart.

 

TomL:

He wants twin engines. It's all about having twin engines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My thoughts exactly on the Wind Vane but how else would you get the mechanism out there?

Sailman:

The thought of that ugly contraption hanging off my beautiful transom make me sick.

Thanks for the AP tip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sweet looking boat, Bob, really nice to see something like that still being drawn these days, I love it...

 

Like many others, however, I'm trying to wrap my mind around the twin engines on such a boat... Someone's gotta ask, is the client actually a Sailor? He's familiar with the concept of 'drag', I presume? I understand the client is always right, but it seems he might be wanting that setup for all the wrong reasons... I hope you're gonna draw the line at designing a full cockpit enclosure for Mr Lucky, however...

 

;-))

 

Based on my experience with powerboats, I have a hard time picturing twins placed 40 inches apart affording too much in the way of additional maneuvering ability around the marina, especially with a full keeled boat... That's not gonna spin 360's like a cat, or a Sea Ray - at least not very easily...

 

And, I would think she's still gonna need a bowthruster... With that cutaway forefoot, sheer/bowsprit and amount of windage forward (I'm assuming headsails will be on furlers, no?), once the wind catches that bow, she'll be GONE, despite the 20 HP twin diesels... The underbody reminds me a bit of Chuck Paine's Cabo Rico 42, and when maneuvering that boat in close quarters in a good breeze, the bow thruster could not possibly have been undersized, you always wanted more... Without a thruster, certain tricky maneuvers simply, particularly when backing down, simply would not have been possible...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chester: We are looking into tat type of arrangement now.

 

Keith:

This is a bigger boat than NIGHT RUNNER. I need more interior volume. The layout will be different and planned around keeping a crew comfortable on long passages and Not PNW races. Not that NR is a bad layout. But this one will be better. There is really no effect on freeboard. I have all I need for sitting height under the side decks and pilot berth clearance.

 

Sounds like you may be a bit confused on displacement. All displacement comes from the keel and the canoe body. As currently drawn in it's very preliminary stage the canoe body displaces just shy of 29,000 lbs. The keel as described will displace on its own just shy of 7,000 lbs. This has nothing to do with ballast amount. The ballast is just part of the keel fin volume. as I have indicated ion the sail plan. See that outline at the bottom of the keel. That is my wild ass guess as to where the ballast will go. I'm close. The diet has nothing to do with "saving weight" per se. The diet has everything to do with reducing immersed volume. Displacement is volume.

 

I'll walk through this;

I have a hull and keel shape that displaces say 36,000 lbs.

That means I have a hull and keel that displaces 562.5 cu. ft.

If I build the boat, put it on a scale and it weighs 21,600 lbs. I will have 14,400 lbs. left over for ballast and a B/D of 40%.

I need 36,000/64 to reach my target displ. in cu. ft. 562.5 cu. ft.

If I build the boat and it weighs 20,880 lbs. I have enough volume left over for 15,120 lbs of ballast and a B/D of 42%.

 

I am working to a displaced volume target. I want the boat to float where I say it will float. The difference between the actual built weight of the boat and my target displ will define the amount of ballast I have i order to sink the boat to its target displ. I know for some of you this is seen as kind of a "chicken and the egg" problem but it really isn't. Not to worry. I understand it perfectly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jon:

One headsail will be on a furler. I do not like the staysail being on a furler for exactly the reason you mention.

Client is a sailor and his previous boat was a Cape George Cutter.

The client is a very intelligent and successful man, a pilot. He listens to me. He has been thinking this project through for over a year. I think he grasps "drag".

 

Twin sail drives will have very little drag. Twin conventional engine installations would have lots of drag. This is sail drives and they are lowest drag short of retracting prop. and shaft.

 

Don't see the connection with the Cabo Rico other than similarity in keel and rudder treatment. My design has twin engines. Different situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dacapo:

I like the new Hinckley but it is far more in the Euro vain for styling than it is a Bermuda 40. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't know if that is an intentional pun or a typo, but I'm laughing my ass off either way!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bob,

 

What is your take on that retractable shaft drive that Betts built into the Bieker 35 RIPTIDE? Pretty clean install for a raceboat but doubt it would be worth the cost and maintenance of the CV joint where the shaft pivots at the engine coupling. I'm kicking around a similar idea but without the CV joint and simply use an electric motor hard coupled to the shaft and let it pivot with the whole driveline. Might be able to do the same with a small diesel.

 

RPS.Image-II.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

dacapo:

I like the new Hinckley but it is far more in the Euro vain for styling than it is a Bermuda 40. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't know if that is an intentional pun or a typo, but I'm laughing my ass off either way!

 

 

"Your so vain, you probably think this yacht design is for you"

 

Apologies to Carly SImon...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, there will be two sail drives abeam of each other. Most sail drives are mounted center line. Most sail drives are mounted where there is little deadrise and it is even on both sides of the cut out. How much deadrise is in this hull in the way of the saildrives and will that deadrise complicate the engineering and the operation??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

dacapo:

I like the new Hinckley but it is far more in the Euro vain for styling than it is a Bermuda 40. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't know if that is an intentional pun or a typo, but I'm laughing my ass off either way!

 

 

"Your so vain, you probably think this yacht design is for you"

 

Apologies to Carly SImon...

 

 

damn, now i've got an ear worm, but still laughing...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the rudder holding up the keel, or is the keel holding up the rudder?

 

I suppose the connection is just to reduce the chance of lines and seaweed handing up on the saildrives and rudder.

 

You could leave the aft part of the keel hollow, and let it fill with sea water. Phil Bolger did that with a few boats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chester: We are looking into tat type of arrangement now.

 

Keith:

This is a bigger boat than NIGHT RUNNER. I need more interior volume. The layout will be different and planned around keeping a crew comfortable on long passages and Not PNW races. Not that NR is a bad layout. But this one will be better. There is really no effect on freeboard. I have all I need for sitting height under the side decks and pilot berth clearance.

 

Sounds like you may be a bit confused on displacement. All displacement comes from the keel and the canoe body. As currently drawn in it's very preliminary stage the canoe body displaces just shy of 29,000 lbs. The keel as described will displace on its own just shy of 7,000 lbs. This has nothing to do with ballast amount. The ballast is just part of the keel fin volume. as I have indicated ion the sail plan. See that outline at the bottom of the keel. That is my wild ass guess as to where the ballast will go. I'm close. The diet has nothing to do with "saving weight" per se. The diet has everything to do with reducing immersed volume. Displacement is volume.

 

I'll walk through this;

I have a hull and keel shape that displaces say 36,000 lbs.

That means I have a hull and keel that displaces 562.5 cu. ft.

If I build the boat, put it on a scale and it weighs 21,600 lbs. I will have 14,400 lbs. left over for ballast and a B/D of 40%.

I need 36,000/64 to reach my target displ. in cu. ft. 562.5 cu. ft.

If I build the boat and it weighs 20,880 lbs. I have enough volume left over for 15,120 lbs of ballast and a B/D of 42%.

 

I am working to a displaced volume target. I want the boat to float where I say it will float. The difference between the actual built weight of the boat and my target displ will define the amount of ballast I have i order to sink the boat to its target displ. I know for some of you this is seen as kind of a "chicken and the egg" problem but it really isn't. Not to worry. I understand it perfectly.

 

Thank you, Bob. I was confused.

 

First you design the volume of water the boat needs to displace and then you add ballast to make sure the boat is heavy enough to displace that much water, i.e., floats on its lines.

 

It's also true that with more displaced water (a heavier boat) more interior volume is below the water which relaxes the demand on higher freeboard to add volume above the water. No?

 

Also, my bet is that when people describe this sort of hull as "sea-kindly" this notion comes mostly from this sort of boat being heavy. I'm a simple man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, there will be two sail drives abeam of each other. Most sail drives are mounted center line. Most sail drives are mounted where there is little deadrise and it is even on both sides of the cut out. How much deadrise is in this hull in the way of the saildrives and will that deadrise complicate the engineering and the operation??

 

Why do sail drives have to be mounted vertically?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rasper:

Very funny. Now I have an ear worm too.

 

kdh:

You have it. I can use immersed volume to keep the freeboard low while providing volume for the accomodations. I want to avoid at all costs the current trend to high freeboard. Freeboard is windage and ugly.

I'm not sure I even know what "sea kindly" means. But I think you nailed it. Most think "heavy" means sea kindly. If you avoid the extremes of design I think a boat's ability to be "sea kindly" is more a function of the operator. If "sea kindly" means low initial stability and a slow role then you have a tender boat and most sailors prefer stability. I'll work for a nice middle ground on this with a slight inclination towards the stability side.

 

Sail drives do not need to be mounted vertically but there is an angle where you may have a problem with oil pick up. That is usually spec'd by the engine manufacturer and is usually around 12 degs. I could split the diffrenence if I have to. But for now I don't have to. As I rework the lines today I suspect I will be reducing deadrise.

 

Semi:

Everything is holding everything together. That "arm" supporting the rudder will be removable, at this stage. It will not be filled with water. Rudder load will be spread out over three bearings.

 

War:

There is not sufficient deadrise aft to prevent a standard sail drive "pan" type installation. I would never get this far into the preliminaries without having verified that first. I am an old hand at this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...Freeboard is windage and ugly.

 

...Most think "heavy" means sea kindly.

 

I think this is fascinating. One thing weight gives is momentum so that you're not pushed around by the sea so much.

 

While WarBird works out his saildrive angles let's consider this for fun: Old "full keel" designs are praised for their qualities. Let's say a "seakindly" old boat has low freeboard and its heavy weight as its most redeeming features when it comes down to what is demonstrably important.

 

Well, one way to get even lower freeboard for the same weight is to get rid of all that immersed keel. In this way the full keel makes the boat less sea kindly. You want the keel to protect the rudder? Connect the other end of that removable rudder "arm" to a fin keel. Get rid of some wetted surface and add some speed in the process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Your so vain, you probably think this yacht design is for you"

 

Apologies to Carly SImon...

 

 

Rasper, let me help you with the visuals. From the LP the tune came from.

 

gallery_13136_823_578.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

OK, there will be two sail drives abeam of each other. Most sail drives are mounted center line. Most sail drives are mounted where there is little deadrise and it is even on both sides of the cut out. How much deadrise is in this hull in the way of the saildrives and will that deadrise complicate the engineering and the operation??

 

Why do sail drives have to be mounted vertically?

 

 

Because if you mount them horizontally the props might get tangled up in the jib sheets :P

 

I think it likely has to do with keeping lube in the lower hub where it was meant to be...I expect the lower unit will be counting on gravity to keep the gear and pinion semi-submersed. The lube will be pumped up to lube higher components, then allowed to flow down to the bottom end which will also serve as a sump.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

"Your so vain, you probably think this yacht design is for you"

 

Apologies to Carly SImon...

 

 

Rasper, let me help you with the visuals. From the LP the tune came from.

 

gallery_13136_823_578.jpg

 

Along with Farrah Fawcett's one of the great protruding nipples pictures. During my adolescence these were a rare phenomenon.

 

arkiv_farrah-poster.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For the autopilot, could you cast a custom rudder pintle that incorporated a bronze tiller into the lazarette? The small tiller could operate in a small sealed wet area with a rod connected to a linear drive sealed using a bellows like a steering rack. Gives the advantage of a under deck ap, and looks traditional with beefy bronze rudder pintles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Along with Farrah Fawcett's one of the great protruding nipples pictures. During my adolescence these were a rare phenomenon.

 

Just don't ask me to post the original Blind Faith cover.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Carly has twin pod drives and they look to be mounted to the normals of the hull surface! Just what Bob envisioned I'm sure. I bet Carly's deadrise angle has changed a bit over the years, she didn't look so hot on stage with Taylor Swift but I have to admit that I hung out at all coffee shops where Carly was know to frequent. Finally ran into her at a bookstore, and she didn't match my fantasies, but then they never do...

 

Actually does have a resemblance with Taylor on second thought.

 

Carly_Simon_-_1978.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Along with Farrah Fawcett's one of the great protruding nipples pictures. During my adolescence these were a rare phenomenon.

 

Just don't ask me to post the original Blind Faith cover.

 

OK.

 

1275927908_hasten-down-the-wind.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites