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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Bob Perry

My newest project

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On 6/15/2017 at 7:17 AM, Bob Perry said:

 

006_zpsc4vteooi.jpg

Can't believe in 2017 that anyone would design nice clear side decks and then clog them up with  great toe splitting moulded chainplates.

Really? you couldn't come up with a better solution?

Time to get out out from behind the computer Bully Bob and check out where modern chainplate design has evolved to.. 

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On ‎15‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 10:27 AM, Zonker said:

I don't think vibration would be an issue at all on this boat. Very low powered so no engine induced stuff, Single prop with lots of clearance. I have to say I've never done a specific vibration analysis other than checking for shaft whirling which is pretty normal.

But I got to thinking about how that open look is a bit like an IACC monohull sailboat aft. Of course they had 100 T of compressive load trying to bend the boat into a banana shape. But they had an open cockpit like this. The narrow side decks took all the compression load. And since there is more material in the hull, the neutral axis (N.A.) of the hull beam is shifted way down towards the bottom of the hull. (The cockpit on those boats was closer to the N.A. so it doesn't do much in bending). 

This boat won't see huge global loads like that. But it will see bending stresses in a seaway. So I would design the side decks with a much thicker laminate or a bit or ledge like the right hand side of the sketch. The extra laminate in the side deck beam shifts the NA up, so the resulting stress is lowered in the side deck.

And then you  have a nice hidden place to keep the fishing rods out of the way. Could also use it as a wiring conduit for and not bury anything under the sole. (Rudder hydraulics? rudder angle indicator? hidden cockpit mood lighting - OK I really like that last idea.)

 

butthurt.jpg

That makes a lot of sense to me.

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That's a 6" high bulwark idiot. That changes how we did the D-1 chainplate to avoid a bending load on the bulwark.. But how would you know? In fact, Jim Antrim designed the chainplates. Maybe it's time for you to learn a bit about design.

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Let me give you some background on the chainplate design decision:

Race boats have a clean hull/deck edge, i.e. no bulwark. This makes it easy to nestle the head of the chainplate (cp)  down into the edge with pins running in line with the sheer.

The D-1 pin is often angled to align with the load.

The  cp head can even be recessed into the edge so it almost disappears. Jim Betts has done this many times. It's an automatic detail for race yachts today.

But on the CF cutters I don't have a clean deck edge. I have a 6" high bulwark consistent with the character of the boat and owner's wishes. If you take the time to dig up one of the deck plans I posted you will see that it's drawn as overlay ( underthink) suggested. The rub being that this way puts a D-1 bending moment on the bulwark. My initial solution was two brackets/gussets to take that load. But that would have put part of the load on the deck. Not good. Jim Betts solution was to use a small knee there and take the cp off the bulwark entirely, taking the load down to the hull side and lining it up with the D-1 load. 

 

In the pic the detail is covered in paper and tape. Remove those and it's not such an obtrusive intrusion into the side deck. This was not an arbitrary decision. Much thought was given to it. Fact is BCC type boats that I know of do not have carbon cp's. Many have outboard cp's. But our CF cutter is a hybrid and new solutions were needed in many areas.

cp_zpsmm5bnfms.jpg

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Jim Antrim ?  heck,  what's that guy know ?... (if you've ever sailed an Ultimate 27 in sporty trade winds to Kauai,  you'd know: plenty) 

I wonder how many of Proa's designs made it to successful series production ?   Clearly he knows a lot more about the process than you do...

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40 minutes ago, Great Red Shark said:

I wonder how many of Proa's designs made it to successful series production ?   Clearly he knows a lot more about the process than you do...

Can't you address the issue without the ad hominem argument?  I worked in the programming field where precision among team members is critical.  And I've owned half a dozen CAD programs since the mid-eighties, all of them 3D.  Yves-Marie Tanton works in 3D, Bob Perry doesn't.  That makes it harder for those who must "build the damed boat" the way Perry intended it.

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1 hour ago, olaf hart said:

To ignore someone click on your name on the top right corner, go to Ignored users.

Even easier, hover over the avatar and you get a popup with that option, amongst others.

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Thanks Ish, good tip although I've never done the ignore thing. Been tempted with Woody but he comes up with something good on the rare occasion. Come to find out, he and I went to High School together!

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4 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

 Yves-Marie Tanton works in 3D, Bob Perry doesn't.  That makes it harder for those who must "build the damed boat" the way Perry intended it.

and yet there is a pretty large amount of Perry designed boats out there on there on the water so he must be doing something correct.

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4 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Can't you address the issue without the ad hominem argument?  I worked in the programming field where precision among team members is critical.  And I've owned half a dozen CAD programs since the mid-eighties, all of them 3D.  Yves-Marie Tanton works in 3D, Bob Perry doesn't.  That makes it harder for those who must "build the damed boat" the way Perry intended it.

Apparently Alanis Morrisette isnt the only one that struggles with irony, as proa whines about ad hominums.

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Here is what proa misses:

For years and years marvelous boats were designed without 3d modeling. Heck, even I did over 300 of them.

It wasn't really hard. It was demanding but we did it. Over and over and over.

Today you can use 3d modeling but I'm here to tell you that some of it is shit. Bad 3d modeling can produce a lot of head aches for the builder.

3d modeling is not a panacea. It's simply another way to do it.

I have done fine without it for 45 years.

This week I watched a builder struggle with a bad 3d model. Simple as that.

But why even discuss this with proa. He has nothing to show. He's a fiddler not a designer./ Where is his end product? He does not understand the design process.

deck%20lines_zpsjw8r6ptg.jpg

 

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I am paid for the Cad drawings. The way Builders use them to built the boat. Beside a nice image, the rendering has little to do with the building of the vessel.

I am not paid for the renderings, I do them on my own time and are not full fledge since I am paying for them. But in these days and age where an image is worth thousands words ( drawings) it is a tool for the client to see, who is very often ignorant as far as reading 2d. plans.

Going back to the essence of this tread; long keel and rudder, I have a little side story for a project dating 14 years ago. You can read about it on my Blog: Metre and J's. 

 

238-Weatherly2.jpg

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22 hours ago, willp14335 said:

It came from the ACAD drawing imported into Rhino, and is very close but not 100% exact to save some modelling time. The deck camber was one area that I approximated to get ready in time to visit Bob and work on the pilothouse and fliybridge layouts.

Given sufficient detail from the ACAD drawing, it never would have occurred to me to improvise and "approximate" a 3D model on a project like this.

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I'll wait for overlay to come back with some lame counter attack.

 

Right on Yves-marie.  Renderings are one thing. Accurate 3D  images are something else.

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24 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Given sufficient detail from the ACAD drawing, it never would have occurred to me to improvise and "approximate" a 3D model on a project like this.

If you read the rest of the post you'd see that the deck was approximated so I'd have time to work with Bob on the more important elements of the project, such as the cockpit and flybridge. As I said earlier, the deck will match more exactly after I revisit it this weekend. I'm busy with work during the week, and don't have much time to mess with a model just to make pretty pictures when there's real design work to do. 

It's still just a conceptual image. 

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4 hours ago, Tanton Y_M said:

I am paid for the Cad drawings. The way Builders use them to built the boat. Beside a nice image, the rendering has little to do with the building of the vessel.

I am not paid for the renderings, I do them on my own time and are not full fledge since I am paying for them. But in these days and age where an image is worth thousands words ( drawings) it is a tool for the client to see, who is very often ignorant as far as reading 2d. plans.

Going back to the essence of this tread; long keel and rudder, I have a little side story for a project dating 14 years ago. You can read about it on my Blog: Metre and J's. 

 

238-Weatherly2.jpg

Nice chastity strut there Mr. Tanton.

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15 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Given sufficient detail from the ACAD drawing, it never would have occurred to me to improvise and "approximate" a 3D model on a project like this.

I am interested in what your workflow is from concept to production?

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3 minutes ago, Jose Carumba said:

I am interested in what your workflow is from concept to production?

Right.  And if yacht design isn't my profession then I should STFU?   Is that your point?

I am meticulous in programming and in CAD.  I value 3D surface modeling as a primary design tool, not an afterthought for rendering purposes only, "just to make pretty pictures".  As I said, I would never approximate someone else's design work to cut corners and save time on a 3D model without discussing it with them first.  Perhaps they missed some details and need to fix the ACAD drawing?  Or maybe there just isn't enough time to do it right before posting it for the world to see, in which case I would either leave out what I didn't finish or include the known defects in the release notes.

I'm quite certain that there are plenty of professionals in the boating industry who consider accurate 3D modeling to be far more important than just a marketing tool for the "ignorant as far as reading 2d. plans".  I can understand that attitude from old guys, not from someone who is just starting their career.

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Proa:

I'm very certain that a lot of things would never have occurred to you. You don't seem to produce anything by whining.

It's a beautiful day here. Grand kids are coming up. Too nice to listen to proa's complaining. Let's have some positive energy around here.

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

Right.  And if yacht design isn't my profession then I should STFU?   Is that your point?

I am meticulous in programming and in CAD.  I value 3D surface modeling as a primary design tool, not an afterthought for rendering purposes only, "just to make pretty pictures".  As I said, I would never approximate someone else's design work to cut corners and save time on a 3D model without discussing it with them first.  Perhaps they missed some details and need to fix the ACAD drawing?  Or maybe there just isn't enough time to do it right before posting it for the world to see, in which case I would either leave out what I didn't finish or include the known defects in the release notes.

I'm quite certain that there are plenty of professionals in the boating industry who consider accurate 3D modeling to be far more important than just a marketing tool for the "ignorant as far as reading 2d. plans".  I can understand that attitude from old guys, not from someone who is just starting their career.

No, I don't really care what specific field you are in.  I am curious whether you start with a conceptual sketch and work towards a final product via an iterative process using your CAD software.  Is it a creative process as in industrial design or a hard numbers strictly engineering process?  Just trying to get a feel for where you are coming from.

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2 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

I am meticulous in programming and in CAD.  I value 3D surface modeling as a primary design tool, not an afterthought for rendering purposes only, "just to make pretty pictures".

This is a perfectly valid perspective, but as I mentioned before, rendering is the ultimate goal for this project. 

I'm quite certain that there are plenty of professionals in the boating industry who consider accurate 3D modeling to be far more important than just a marketing tool for the "ignorant as far as reading 2d. plans".  I can understand that attitude from old guys, not from someone who is just starting their career.

You are putting words in my mouth here. I'll freely admit to the mistakes pointed out in the model, I'm still new at this. As I said before, making renderings is the purpose of this project. That doesn't mean I think 3D CAD is a tool for that purpose only. I am working with 3D models at work that have to be accurate enough to build. We are working to a 1/32" tolerance. 3D modelling is becoming the norm in the field and is changing the way boats are designed.  I'd have to be pretty thick not to embrace those changes if I want to become a successful designer. 

 

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20 minutes ago, willp14335 said:

You are putting words in my mouth here. I'll freely admit to the mistakes pointed out in the model, I'm still new at this. As I said before, making renderings is the purpose of this project. That doesn't mean I think 3D CAD is a tool for that purpose only. I am working with 3D models at work that have to be accurate enough to build. We are working to a 1/32" tolerance. 3D modelling is becoming the norm in the field and is changing the way boats are designed.  I'd have to be pretty thick not to embrace those changes if I want to become a successful designer. 

I don't think Proa realizes you are doing the renders for this project in your spare time, for fun.

His vitriol towards Bob and all things Bob is likely to cause some by-splatter as he sprays his nastiness around indiscriminately at all those associated with Bob.

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Will: proa likes to be antagonistic. He chooses his words to attack plain and simple.  That's all he has to contribute. Pay no attention to him. Your way will work just fine. You already have a far better grip on the design sequence than proa has, based on his posts. It's no mystery and you know that.

After 50 years, 300 designs and 6,000 boats I am quite comfortable with my own method. But I do enjoy working with a skilled 3D guy like Jody or you. We work in the same design spiral starting from concept and refining as we go. Nobody starts with the finished design.

Ironic in this discussion is that when I turned my Italian intern down initially because I was "old school" his adviser told him to "Find an old guy. Learn they way they do it."

 

I agree with your Dad''s take on this. 

 

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Bob, since These aholes are raining on the design parade and you want to change the vibe...Just put this together on Tuesday. It rained and I had the chance to throw it together without any computer aid so Proa knows ahead of time. I don't do that work. It's a little out of square and not finished, but at least it's an effort. The only thing Proa and Brent seem to produce is fecal matter; whether biological or vocal. Meanwhile, the pro's and others that use computer rendering in design make the sailing and boating scene in general, a much better place, and to have to deal with you and a guy who never even bought a car...

It just hurts

 

IMG_4377.JPG

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As proa has me on ignore there's nothing really to say except it is sort of ridiculous what little I saw quoted.

Misuse of 3d can be costly. I saw that happen just a few months ago. Gigo.

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1 hour ago, Jose Carumba said:

No, I don't really care what specific field you are in.  I am curious whether you start with a conceptual sketch and work towards a final product via an iterative process using your CAD software.  Is it a creative process as in industrial design or a hard numbers strictly engineering process?  Just trying to get a feel for where you are coming from.

Given the hostile nature of this particular "bar" (thanks primarily to Bob Perry), I'll probably regret giving you a straight answer.  Will you answer the same questions?

I've always loved "mechanical drawing" and programming.  For me, both involve "spatial relations" and abstract reasoning, especially when combined as in Grasshopper (Rhino) or "Dynamic Components" (Sketchup).  You know Grasshopper, right?

Long before I got into CAD, algorithms and data structures always had a 3D architectural quality, where code for classes and objects were like rooms in a building, separate but connected.  The distinction between creativity and engineering is like yin and yang, where engineering is the precision and reliability needed to implement a creative vision.

I've spent a ridiculous amount of time sketching large proas over the last thirty years, with careful attention to both engineering and aesthetics, but amuse myself these days on the Grasshopper forum, solving problems for others as if they are crossword puzzles.  Like this one in the last 24 hours, helping a guitar builder compute string and fret spacing:

stringSet_2017Jun17e.thumb.png.780c83f16f980024cbb776e66bdc06bd.png

front.thumb.jpg.be7a1d37b77c33e9c6ca9204b0e7a7bc.jpg

Fun stuff!  Creative precision.  That's me.  Cheers

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On 6/14/2017 at 11:02 PM, SloopJonB said:

Not true - look up the Cd's of current cars - they are frequently under 0.20.

That "going backwards" thing is an ancient urban myth - Mythbusters did an episode debunking it years ago.

With the automakers agonizing over and spending millions for every third decimal place scrap of CAFE do you really think they'd give up 30% for styling quirks?

 

The Tesla Model 3 may get down to 0.20. It would be one of the lowest ever (http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-dominate-drag-race-drag-coefficient-less-0-20/). Can you please tell me which other cars you think have a Cd under 0.20?

I wasn't talking about them. I also wasn't talking about the car that Mythbusters frankensteined - the Porsche 928. I don't ever see any of those on the road, so I don't care about those. And I wasn't talking about frankensteining any cars. Significantly changing a car and expecting it to perform is very difficult even for experts. And using data from one 928 is foolish. Those cars are going to be inconsistent even if you don't change them.

I was talking about some sporty sedans, some hatchbacks, some wagons, some SUVs, some minivans, and most pickups. These vehicles are everywhere. And I was talking about wind tunnel tests. Unfortunately, I don't have the resources to wind tunnel test a bunch of cars.

The car companies still need to sell cars, and many Americans think all the aerodynamic cars look the same and want their car to look unique.

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2 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Given the hostile nature of this particular "bar" (thanks primarily to Bob Perry), I'll probably regret giving you a straight answer.  Will you answer the same questions?

I've always loved "mechanical drawing" and programming.  For me, both involve "spatial relations" and abstract reasoning, especially when combined as in Grasshopper (Rhino) or "Dynamic Components" (Sketchup).  You know Grasshopper, right?

Long before I got into CAD, algorithms and data structures always had a 3D architectural quality, where code for classes and objects were like rooms in a building, separate but connected.  The distinction between creativity and engineering is like yin and yang, where engineering is the precision and reliability needed to implement a creative vision.

I've spent a ridiculous amount of time sketching large proas over the last thirty years, with careful attention to both engineering and aesthetics, but amuse myself these days on the Grasshopper forum, solving problems for others as if they are crossword puzzles.  Like this one in the last 24 hours, helping a guitar builder compute string and fret spacing:

stringSet_2017Jun17e.thumb.png.780c83f16f980024cbb776e66bdc06bd.png

front.thumb.jpg.be7a1d37b77c33e9c6ca9204b0e7a7bc.jpg

Fun stuff!  Creative precision.  That's me.  Cheers

Straight answer. Your really smart, I'm a proponent of the fanned fret concept since linear frets suck if you do any dropped tunings

You've been after Bob as well, so stop and start letting us know about the cool things you can do and I hope you don't get too much heat. If you do, it's on you, you're in charge of your future. 

I'd rout out the lower bout a little more and flip the bridge pickup to get a brighter sound myself as a lead guitarist. Alder body is the tone and sustain wood...

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2 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Given the hostile nature of this particular "bar" (thanks primarily to Bob Perry), I'll probably regret giving you a straight answer.  Will you answer the same questions?

I've always loved "mechanical drawing" and programming.  For me, both involve "spatial relations" and abstract reasoning, especially when combined as in Grasshopper (Rhino) or "Dynamic Components" (Sketchup).  You know Grasshopper, right?

Long before I got into CAD, algorithms and data structures always had a 3D architectural quality, where code for classes and objects were like rooms in a building, separate but connected.  The distinction between creativity and engineering is like yin and yang, where engineering is the precision and reliability needed to implement a creative vision.

I've spent a ridiculous amount of time sketching large proas over the last thirty years, with careful attention to both engineering and aesthetics, but amuse myself these days on the Grasshopper forum, solving problems for others as if they are crossword puzzles.  Like this one in the last 24 hours, helping a guitar builder compute string and fret spacing:

stringSet_2017Jun17e.thumb.png.780c83f16f980024cbb776e66bdc06bd.png

front.thumb.jpg.be7a1d37b77c33e9c6ca9204b0e7a7bc.jpg

Fun stuff!  Creative precision.  That's me.  Cheers

I am a yacht designer for a manufacturer of large motoryachts.  I have worked in boat and ship building since I was sweeping the shop floors at 10 years old at the family boat yard (now defunct).  I am 64 now.  

Our process:  A customer comes to us and we listen to their requireents.  Our designers translate those requirements into loose 2D sketches of profiles and general arrangements while engineering generates a hull design based on length, speed, range and draft requirements. Engineering and design work together (your yin & yang) using AutoCAD, Rhino, and various other programs to tighten up everything into a working design which goes into production.  It is the classic design spiral using feedback to iteratively refine the final product.  Every design office or boat builder i know of uses the ssme procedure. That's the process in a very small nut shell.

Everyone makes mistakes.  We're all human.  The design for Kim's boat is still in the preliminary stage.  Something shown wrong in the design is no big problem.  Will is young and learning the ropes.  Did he make a mistake with the camber?  Sure but no big deal and I am sure he learned something from it.  Making mistakes and learning from them is just part of life.

As for your issues with Bob, just let it go.  I like Sail4beer''s comments.  Good advice.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, nroose said:

please tell me which other cars you think have a Cd under 0.20?

5 minutes on the Net will give you all the lists you need - do your own research, preferably before perpetuating urban myths.

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Drag coefficient per se isn't really important at all.

Drag is.
I don't give a damn what the car drag is, referenced to the frontal area (drag coefficient.) I care about the drag.
It's kind of like "global average temperature." I think it is stupid to talk about. Glaciers receding and sea level, well, that's something you can actually measure.

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4 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Bob, since These aholes are raining on the design parade and you want to change the vibe...Just put this together on Tuesday. It rained and I had the chance to throw it together without any computer aid so Proa knows ahead of time. I don't do that work. It's a little out of square and not finished, but at least it's an effort. The only thing Proa and Brent seem to produce is fecal matter; whether biological or vocal. Meanwhile, the pro's and others that use computer rendering in design make the sailing and boating scene in general, a much better place, and to have to deal with you and a guy who never even bought a car...

It just hurts

 

IMG_4377.JPG

Btw, Bob P; I didn't mean to type in "you and" the guy who never bought a car. Should have been :"And to have to deal with a guy who never bought a car".

You guys work way too hard for that type of insult.

I can't blame the typo on autocorrect, just poor thought to type editing 

The tiller has to come in at 57" from the post to clear the boom gallows so I have some room to work with and a lot of stock to reduce! But it does balance well and feels masculine as hell!

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José,

Your process is similar to the OEM engineering firms I have worked in. Mock up in 2d sketches, then complete the detail in 3d. Preliminary work in 3d is too slow, as you have to do too much detail. 2d you can rough in the important parts quickly and ignore the rest for later, which occasionally comes to bite you in the arse. 

Proa,

My last big project was 8.3m long, 3.45m wide, and 1.85m high. The inventor model had just under 10 000 total parts, over 3000 unique, 75% of them drawn and detailed by me. We had 2 weeks to produce at least 2 or 3 different layouts for quote, impossible in 3d given our resources

I find your grasshopper work interesting and a useful tool for certain things, but it is entirely useless for many types of computer design work. 

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3 hours ago, Rantifarian said:

Preliminary work in 3d is too slow, as you have to do too much detail.

3 hours ago, Rantifarian said:

impossible in 3d given our resources

3 hours ago, Rantifarian said:

I find your grasshopper work interesting and a useful tool for certain things, but it is entirely useless for many types of computer design work.

Any tool you aren't familiar with will be more difficult to use until you master it.  Arguments advocating 2D over 3D CAD can be summarized by a pair of proverbs:

  • "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know."
  • "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

I don't keep my Sketchup Pro updated anymore since Google sold it to Trimble, but for many applications (not boats!), it is a great 3D tool that is simple to use.  It has a "Layout" companion tool for producing many different 2D and 3D views of the same model, all of which are updated whenever the base 3D model is changed.  For example, here is a nine page .pdf layout of a Dutch Gable Hip Collar-Tie Bracket for 6:12 pitch roof:

hip_collar_bracket_2014_Page_3.thumb.png.a6b868f919e708ff6b61f642ba64d5e0.png

 

Programming is an art form that doesn't come naturally to everyone.  Many on the Grasshopper forum are dilettantes that will never get it, ever.  For those who can play with code like a musician plays an instrument, though, the applications are infinite.

twisted_box_2017Jun13c.thumb.png.8bcd8348214cba32055efe5963e0dd2b.png

cones_2017Jun5d.thumb.jpg.2fe5e91a513c07a7de8bab45fd177072.jpg

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13 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

5 minutes on the Net will give you all the lists you need - do your own research, preferably before perpetuating urban myths.

Less than 5 minutes gets me evidence against your claims. There are currently exactly 0 production cars with less than 0.24 Cd. Please, do answer my question.

Screen Shot 2017-06-18 at 9.44.53 AM.png

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15 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Drag coefficient per se isn't really important at all.

Drag is.
I don't give a damn what the car drag is, referenced to the frontal area (drag coefficient.) I care about the drag.
It's kind of like "global average temperature." I think it is stupid to talk about. Glaciers receding and sea level, well, that's something you can actually measure.

Cd is much like the dimensionless numbers we use to compare sailboat thingies. It's a relative comparison between vehicles. Obviously small cars have less total drag than big cars but the Cd is still a significant comparator - the lower the better.

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1 hour ago, nroose said:

Less than 5 minutes gets me evidence against your claims. There are currently exactly 0 production cars with less than 0.24 Cd. Please, do answer my question.

 

You're right - I agree. Manufacturers build cars with high drag for marketing purposes.

They are slipperier going backwards too.

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Can't remember what the CD was for my old Mercedes 280 se, but a fuel injected 4.5 liter v8 couldn't push that land yacht over 125mph even on the downhill run on a long bridge. The '68 Pontiac firebird would do about 140mph in the same situation. The beauty of the Benz was that it had a leaned back grill and forward leaning headlight assemblies. Couldn't have been much more wind resistant or more masculine.

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Pontiac had a 327 and a 2 speed racing transmission... the Benz had a/c and power windows

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

You're right - I agree. Manufacturers build cars with high drag for marketing purposes.

They are slipperier going backwards too.

 

I see, after I posted clear evidence against your clear false statement, we are going sarcastic.

You're right, the manufacturers don't actually care about selling cars, just about making their cars more and more efficient!

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17 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Straight answer. Your really smart, I'm a proponent of the fanned fret concept since linear frets suck if you do any dropped tunings

You've been after Bob as well, so stop and start letting us know about the cool things you can do and I hope you don't get too much heat. If you do, it's on you, you're in charge of your future. 

I'd rout out the lower bout a little more and flip the bridge pickup to get a brighter sound myself as a lead guitarist. Alder body is the tone and sustain wood...

Alder is too heavy and dense.  Swamp ash is where I live.

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1 hour ago, Whisper said:

Alder is too heavy and dense.  Swamp ash is where I live.

Well, I'm not going to argue with that. Sounds cool as hell for a guitar too. I just always liked the '79 Fender Stratocaster with the Alder body for some reason...

Mostly maple, rosewood and mahogany around here right now...

 

  

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

Well, I'm not going to argue with that. Sounds cool as hell for a guitar too. I just always liked the '79 Fender Stratocaster with the Alder body for some reason...

Mostly maple, rosewood and mahogany around here right now...

 

  

No thread drift here!

LOVE the tone of this one.

Edit:  Why in the hell are my pics sideways lately?

IMG_2747.JPG

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6 hours ago, Whisper said:

No thread drift here!

LOVE the tone of this one.

Edit:  Why in the hell are my pics sideways lately?

IMG_2747.JPG

 

I am guessing you use an iPhone and then a PC. iPhone does portrait mode differently than some PC photo software.

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I've been tied up with my Italian intern today. Looks like ti will be an intense week, I'm going to have to give him 100% pf my focus. That should be enjoyable.


When Eric Clapton, Andre Segovia, Pepe Romero and Mark Knophler change their fret layout, then I'll consider it.

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On 6/17/2017 at 7:15 PM, Jose Carumba said:

As for your issues with Bob, just let it go.

Wish you hadn't said that, Jose.  Bob's behavior on these forums is not OK.  Perry is a relentless, malicious slime machine who takes pleasure in disrupting threads through personal attacks and vainglorious boasting.  He revels in sowing dissension, as if there isn't enough in this world already.

In a bullfight, I root for the bull.  Sometimes they win.  The banderilleros couldn't save this torero from his fate.  Another one bites the dust!  See the comments on the video.

 

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23 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Wish you hadn't said that, Jose.  Bob's behavior on these forums is not OK.  Perry is a relentless, malicious slime machine who takes pleasure in disrupting threads through personal attacks and vainglorious boasting.  He revels in sowing dissension, as if there isn't enough in this world already.

 

 

Geez, you'd think that shrill screeching about ad hominem attacks the other day came from someone other than you.

 

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Just now, B.J. Porter said:

Geez, you'd think that shrill screeching about ad hominem attacks the other day came from someone other than you.

You are confused about the difference between provocation and response.  Perry has gleefully and deliberately created and cultivated enemies.  The entire history of our interactions over the years are here in the SA archives (along with the Akashic records, of course).  He has been the provocateur all along.

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That's a great looking Strat Whisper. What is that strange looking ax?

 

Proa seems obsessed with my "behavior". Maybe he should work on getting a real life. I'm not comfortable with people like BS and proa being obsessed with me. I find it sick. Do they honestly think I'll change anything in my world because of their whining? Can't see that happening.

If I offend you proa that a choice you make, not me.

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22 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

Proa should be more concerned with his own behavior (which he can control) than Bob's (which he can't).

I can't control Trump's behavior either but that's no reason to be silent about it.

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

You are confused about the difference between provocation and response.  Perry has gleefully and deliberately created and cultivated enemies.  The entire history of our interactions over the years are here in the SA archives (along with the Akashic records, of course).  He has been the provocateur all along.

I don't know, I've watched these forums pretty carefully over the years and paid probably closer attention to a lot of shitfights and personalities in them.

You creating a post where you simply rage at Bob, insult him and impugn his character...seems to me you're picking that fight, not him. Yet you justify that as OK because it's a "provocation" instead of a response?

He doesn't seem to have a lot of tolerance for fools, so that could be why you feel picked on. But from what I can see, you're like a guy that instead of pumping the cesspool trunk into the tanks, you grab the hose and try to spray Bob with it every chance you get. And you don't care one whit who you have to spray that you think is standing by him.

Just my take, as someone that has taken an administrative interest in the shit fights over the years. I've never seen that Bob has cultivated enemies. But like any high profile person that steps in with his real name with a bunch of anonymous posters, he's got a fair amount of shitheads like you that come after him like a moth to a flame.

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1 minute ago, B.J. Porter said:

seems to me you're picking that fight, not him. Yet you justify that as OK because it's a "provocation" instead of a response?

You are still confused.  A response is OK, a provocation is not.  The bull isn't a predator, not even a carnivore.  Killing the torero was a response, not a provocation.

5 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I've never seen that Bob has cultivated enemies.

politics-monkeys-see_no_evil-speak_no_evil-political-three_wise_monkeys-rmcn94_low.jpg.df238e47ae3b96ca46afa3cd4baff907.jpg

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11 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

You are still confused.  A response is OK, a provocation is not.  The bull isn't a predator, not even a carnivore.  Killing the torero was a response, not a provocation.

politics-monkeys-see_no_evil-speak_no_evil-political-three_wise_monkeys-rmcn94_low.jpg.df238e47ae3b96ca46afa3cd4baff907.jpg

So how is it that you justify calling Bob a "relentless slime machine" then? Did HE provoke you to make that reply? Or were you responding to someone else's provocation, which I guess by your standards makes attacking Bob just fine?

It seems to me you have have a beam in your own eye to deal with here before you get your panties too much in a bunch over the mote in Bob's.

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2 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

This could be the start of a Music Anarchy thread. It would be nice to get off of this on and let the yacht design guys have it back.. hint hint.

I wonder how long it would take for MA to go south...

True Temperament really does resolve all the odd fret issues of the guitar; kinda wish my old Ibanez Iceman had them

B.J., wish you well in retirement from this site admin...

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1 minute ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

327 and powerglide = 140MPH?   

On the downside of a long bridge. Also, it was in the late 80's, maybe the number is a bit high... but didn't feel like it was pushing back against the air like the Benz..

What speed do you think it would be with that combo? I know it was the faster car but I'm not a gear head, just a reformed lead foot...

 

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11 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

This could be the start of a Music Anarchy thread. It would be nice to get off of this on and let the yacht design guys have it back.. hint hint.

I wonder how long it would take for MA to go south...

True Temperament really does resolve all the odd fret issues of the guitar; kinda wish my old Ibanez Iceman had them

B.J., wish you well in retirement from this site admin...

As a bowed string player, I shake my head in quizzical amusement at these sorts of "discoveries." (If you don't understand why, well, think about that for a moment).  But Tolgahan Çoğulu's

adjustable fretted classical guitar is completely cool and John Catler's ultra plus is fun--mostly because I did my own experiments like that once where I discovered that the 7th harmonic could be used for creating a "seven" tonality but without tremolo---which is essentially exactly what he does.

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Just now, Sail4beer said:

On the downside of a long bridge. Also, it was in the late 80's, maybe the number is a bit high... but didn't feel like it was pushing back against the air like the Benz..

What speed do you think it would be with that combo? I know it was the faster car but I'm not a gear head, just a reformed lead foot...

 

Mechanical speedometer error increases exponentially above 60-70MPH or so. With the overall gearing that your car likely had (assuming a rear-end ratio around 2.73/3.23:1) you'd be turning in excess of 7K rpm at that speed.  More likely top end on that car (again, assuming a mostly stock/hot street configuration) was around 120, if everything was working well.   

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I want to know more about this mechanical speedometer error thing. Are you saying that my 38 MPH on my Raleigh Space Rider in 1976 (measured by a Schwinn Approved Speedometer) was a lie?

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18 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Mechanical speedometer error increases exponentially above 60-70MPH or so. With the overall gearing that your car likely had (assuming a rear-end ratio around 2.73/3.23:1) you'd be turning in excess of 7K rpm at that speed.  More likely top end on that car (again, assuming a mostly stock/hot street configuration) was around 120, if everything was working well.   

The 327 was the sweetest bore/stroke combo of all the small blocks. It could easily wind to 7K if it was carefully built. I've seen street 327's that put out well over 400 HP and did the 1/4 in the 12's - back in in the 60's.

The Powerglide would have no effect on top speed, only acceleration - it was still 1 to 1 in high gear. The PG is the trans of choice for a lot a drag racers right up to low level rails because it doesn't absorb as much power as bigger transmissions.

Having said that, 140 in a 1st gen Firebird would be doing very well - even on a downgrade.

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fibre chainplates are a different animal than bolted. Length doesn't help with the load, it is width that matters, and eliminating a stress concentration at the ends o the chainplate (top and bottom) is super important and achieved through taper.
Note the flare to the fibres. This is the width aspect. If you simply make a longer fiber chainplate you merely move the stress concentration somewhere lower.

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

That's a great looking Strat Whisper. What is that strange looking ax?

 

Proa seems obsessed with my "behavior". Maybe he should work on getting a real life. I'm not comfortable with people like BS and proa being obsessed with me. I find it sick. Do they honestly think I'll change anything in my world because of their whining? Can't see that happening.

If I offend you proa that a choice you make, not me.

Hey guys, lets not FRET about such things, OK? 

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Buai:

Chainplates are pretty easy to get right. There are some constraints on a boat like the cutters, i.e. 6" high bulwarks. But I can't see ever having to move them. I have never moved chainplates once installed. CF chainplates solve problems that you can have with s.s. chainplates. No leaks for one. Also you can build very conservatively without any significant weight issue. I have told the story before of Dennis Choate doubling  the CF specs the designer had given him. Some builders have a feel for what they think is "enough".

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13 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Daniele is designing a powerboat for me. I am the client. Can you imagine?

Hmmm... They say that Doctors make the worst patients..

 

 

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Hide all the pictures of American production powerboats@! Find a coffee table book of Italian speedboats that you can leave lying around.

 

mg_5744jpg.jpg

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SemI:

I want a boat in the style of Kim's PB. It won't be Italian. But I do have copy of Carlo Sciarelli's autobiography sitting on his drawing board.

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6 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Wish you hadn't said that, Jose.  Bob's behavior on these forums is not OK.  Perry is a relentless, malicious slime machine who takes pleasure in disrupting threads through personal attacks and vainglorious boasting.  He revels in sowing dissension, as if there isn't enough in this world already.

In a bullfight, I root for the bull.  Sometimes they win.  The banderilleros couldn't save this torero from his fate.  Another one bites the dust!  See the comments on the video.

 

And here you sit, in a thread about Bob's projects, attacking him and calling him names.

WTF are you suggesting with the bullshit bull fight analogies?  Are you suggesting Bob captured you, locked you in a pen against your will, trapped you in a arena, and began taunting and stabbing you?

No, you're free to leave anytime you want.  A bull would have the intellect to do that.  You apparently do not.  You're just an unwanted and dimwitted mosquito taunting and poking and trying to suck blood from these threads, while resenting the justified swats that come your way.

As always, you provoke, we respond.

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