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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
Bob Perry

My newest project

10,483 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

Right.  And if yacht design isn't my profession then I should STFU?   Is that your point?

I am meticulous in programming and in CAD.  I value 3D surface modeling as a primary design tool, not an afterthought for rendering purposes only, "just to make pretty pictures".  As I said, I would never approximate someone else's design work to cut corners and save time on a 3D model without discussing it with them first.  Perhaps they missed some details and need to fix the ACAD drawing?  Or maybe there just isn't enough time to do it right before posting it for the world to see, in which case I would either leave out what I didn't finish or include the known defects in the release notes.

I'm quite certain that there are plenty of professionals in the boating industry who consider accurate 3D modeling to be far more important than just a marketing tool for the "ignorant as far as reading 2d. plans".  I can understand that attitude from old guys, not from someone who is just starting their career.

No, I don't really care what specific field you are in.  I am curious whether you start with a conceptual sketch and work towards a final product via an iterative process using your CAD software.  Is it a creative process as in industrial design or a hard numbers strictly engineering process?  Just trying to get a feel for where you are coming from.

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2 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

I am meticulous in programming and in CAD.  I value 3D surface modeling as a primary design tool, not an afterthought for rendering purposes only, "just to make pretty pictures".

This is a perfectly valid perspective, but as I mentioned before, rendering is the ultimate goal for this project. 

I'm quite certain that there are plenty of professionals in the boating industry who consider accurate 3D modeling to be far more important than just a marketing tool for the "ignorant as far as reading 2d. plans".  I can understand that attitude from old guys, not from someone who is just starting their career.

You are putting words in my mouth here. I'll freely admit to the mistakes pointed out in the model, I'm still new at this. As I said before, making renderings is the purpose of this project. That doesn't mean I think 3D CAD is a tool for that purpose only. I am working with 3D models at work that have to be accurate enough to build. We are working to a 1/32" tolerance. 3D modelling is becoming the norm in the field and is changing the way boats are designed.  I'd have to be pretty thick not to embrace those changes if I want to become a successful designer. 

 

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20 minutes ago, willp14335 said:

You are putting words in my mouth here. I'll freely admit to the mistakes pointed out in the model, I'm still new at this. As I said before, making renderings is the purpose of this project. That doesn't mean I think 3D CAD is a tool for that purpose only. I am working with 3D models at work that have to be accurate enough to build. We are working to a 1/32" tolerance. 3D modelling is becoming the norm in the field and is changing the way boats are designed.  I'd have to be pretty thick not to embrace those changes if I want to become a successful designer. 

I don't think Proa realizes you are doing the renders for this project in your spare time, for fun.

His vitriol towards Bob and all things Bob is likely to cause some by-splatter as he sprays his nastiness around indiscriminately at all those associated with Bob.

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Will: proa likes to be antagonistic. He chooses his words to attack plain and simple.  That's all he has to contribute. Pay no attention to him. Your way will work just fine. You already have a far better grip on the design sequence than proa has, based on his posts. It's no mystery and you know that.

After 50 years, 300 designs and 6,000 boats I am quite comfortable with my own method. But I do enjoy working with a skilled 3D guy like Jody or you. We work in the same design spiral starting from concept and refining as we go. Nobody starts with the finished design.

Ironic in this discussion is that when I turned my Italian intern down initially because I was "old school" his adviser told him to "Find an old guy. Learn they way they do it."

 

I agree with your Dad''s take on this. 

 

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Bob, since These aholes are raining on the design parade and you want to change the vibe...Just put this together on Tuesday. It rained and I had the chance to throw it together without any computer aid so Proa knows ahead of time. I don't do that work. It's a little out of square and not finished, but at least it's an effort. The only thing Proa and Brent seem to produce is fecal matter; whether biological or vocal. Meanwhile, the pro's and others that use computer rendering in design make the sailing and boating scene in general, a much better place, and to have to deal with you and a guy who never even bought a car...

It just hurts

 

IMG_4377.JPG

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As proa has me on ignore there's nothing really to say except it is sort of ridiculous what little I saw quoted.

Misuse of 3d can be costly. I saw that happen just a few months ago. Gigo.

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1 hour ago, Jose Carumba said:

No, I don't really care what specific field you are in.  I am curious whether you start with a conceptual sketch and work towards a final product via an iterative process using your CAD software.  Is it a creative process as in industrial design or a hard numbers strictly engineering process?  Just trying to get a feel for where you are coming from.

Given the hostile nature of this particular "bar" (thanks primarily to Bob Perry), I'll probably regret giving you a straight answer.  Will you answer the same questions?

I've always loved "mechanical drawing" and programming.  For me, both involve "spatial relations" and abstract reasoning, especially when combined as in Grasshopper (Rhino) or "Dynamic Components" (Sketchup).  You know Grasshopper, right?

Long before I got into CAD, algorithms and data structures always had a 3D architectural quality, where code for classes and objects were like rooms in a building, separate but connected.  The distinction between creativity and engineering is like yin and yang, where engineering is the precision and reliability needed to implement a creative vision.

I've spent a ridiculous amount of time sketching large proas over the last thirty years, with careful attention to both engineering and aesthetics, but amuse myself these days on the Grasshopper forum, solving problems for others as if they are crossword puzzles.  Like this one in the last 24 hours, helping a guitar builder compute string and fret spacing:

stringSet_2017Jun17e.thumb.png.780c83f16f980024cbb776e66bdc06bd.png

front.thumb.jpg.be7a1d37b77c33e9c6ca9204b0e7a7bc.jpg

Fun stuff!  Creative precision.  That's me.  Cheers

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On 6/14/2017 at 11:02 PM, SloopJonB said:

Not true - look up the Cd's of current cars - they are frequently under 0.20.

That "going backwards" thing is an ancient urban myth - Mythbusters did an episode debunking it years ago.

With the automakers agonizing over and spending millions for every third decimal place scrap of CAFE do you really think they'd give up 30% for styling quirks?

 

The Tesla Model 3 may get down to 0.20. It would be one of the lowest ever (http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-dominate-drag-race-drag-coefficient-less-0-20/). Can you please tell me which other cars you think have a Cd under 0.20?

I wasn't talking about them. I also wasn't talking about the car that Mythbusters frankensteined - the Porsche 928. I don't ever see any of those on the road, so I don't care about those. And I wasn't talking about frankensteining any cars. Significantly changing a car and expecting it to perform is very difficult even for experts. And using data from one 928 is foolish. Those cars are going to be inconsistent even if you don't change them.

I was talking about some sporty sedans, some hatchbacks, some wagons, some SUVs, some minivans, and most pickups. These vehicles are everywhere. And I was talking about wind tunnel tests. Unfortunately, I don't have the resources to wind tunnel test a bunch of cars.

The car companies still need to sell cars, and many Americans think all the aerodynamic cars look the same and want their car to look unique.

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2 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Given the hostile nature of this particular "bar" (thanks primarily to Bob Perry), I'll probably regret giving you a straight answer.  Will you answer the same questions?

I've always loved "mechanical drawing" and programming.  For me, both involve "spatial relations" and abstract reasoning, especially when combined as in Grasshopper (Rhino) or "Dynamic Components" (Sketchup).  You know Grasshopper, right?

Long before I got into CAD, algorithms and data structures always had a 3D architectural quality, where code for classes and objects were like rooms in a building, separate but connected.  The distinction between creativity and engineering is like yin and yang, where engineering is the precision and reliability needed to implement a creative vision.

I've spent a ridiculous amount of time sketching large proas over the last thirty years, with careful attention to both engineering and aesthetics, but amuse myself these days on the Grasshopper forum, solving problems for others as if they are crossword puzzles.  Like this one in the last 24 hours, helping a guitar builder compute string and fret spacing:

stringSet_2017Jun17e.thumb.png.780c83f16f980024cbb776e66bdc06bd.png

front.thumb.jpg.be7a1d37b77c33e9c6ca9204b0e7a7bc.jpg

Fun stuff!  Creative precision.  That's me.  Cheers

Straight answer. Your really smart, I'm a proponent of the fanned fret concept since linear frets suck if you do any dropped tunings

You've been after Bob as well, so stop and start letting us know about the cool things you can do and I hope you don't get too much heat. If you do, it's on you, you're in charge of your future. 

I'd rout out the lower bout a little more and flip the bridge pickup to get a brighter sound myself as a lead guitarist. Alder body is the tone and sustain wood...

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2 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Given the hostile nature of this particular "bar" (thanks primarily to Bob Perry), I'll probably regret giving you a straight answer.  Will you answer the same questions?

I've always loved "mechanical drawing" and programming.  For me, both involve "spatial relations" and abstract reasoning, especially when combined as in Grasshopper (Rhino) or "Dynamic Components" (Sketchup).  You know Grasshopper, right?

Long before I got into CAD, algorithms and data structures always had a 3D architectural quality, where code for classes and objects were like rooms in a building, separate but connected.  The distinction between creativity and engineering is like yin and yang, where engineering is the precision and reliability needed to implement a creative vision.

I've spent a ridiculous amount of time sketching large proas over the last thirty years, with careful attention to both engineering and aesthetics, but amuse myself these days on the Grasshopper forum, solving problems for others as if they are crossword puzzles.  Like this one in the last 24 hours, helping a guitar builder compute string and fret spacing:

stringSet_2017Jun17e.thumb.png.780c83f16f980024cbb776e66bdc06bd.png

front.thumb.jpg.be7a1d37b77c33e9c6ca9204b0e7a7bc.jpg

Fun stuff!  Creative precision.  That's me.  Cheers

I am a yacht designer for a manufacturer of large motoryachts.  I have worked in boat and ship building since I was sweeping the shop floors at 10 years old at the family boat yard (now defunct).  I am 64 now.  

Our process:  A customer comes to us and we listen to their requireents.  Our designers translate those requirements into loose 2D sketches of profiles and general arrangements while engineering generates a hull design based on length, speed, range and draft requirements. Engineering and design work together (your yin & yang) using AutoCAD, Rhino, and various other programs to tighten up everything into a working design which goes into production.  It is the classic design spiral using feedback to iteratively refine the final product.  Every design office or boat builder i know of uses the ssme procedure. That's the process in a very small nut shell.

Everyone makes mistakes.  We're all human.  The design for Kim's boat is still in the preliminary stage.  Something shown wrong in the design is no big problem.  Will is young and learning the ropes.  Did he make a mistake with the camber?  Sure but no big deal and I am sure he learned something from it.  Making mistakes and learning from them is just part of life.

As for your issues with Bob, just let it go.  I like Sail4beer''s comments.  Good advice.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, nroose said:

please tell me which other cars you think have a Cd under 0.20?

5 minutes on the Net will give you all the lists you need - do your own research, preferably before perpetuating urban myths.

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Drag coefficient per se isn't really important at all.

Drag is.
I don't give a damn what the car drag is, referenced to the frontal area (drag coefficient.) I care about the drag.
It's kind of like "global average temperature." I think it is stupid to talk about. Glaciers receding and sea level, well, that's something you can actually measure.

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4 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Bob, since These aholes are raining on the design parade and you want to change the vibe...Just put this together on Tuesday. It rained and I had the chance to throw it together without any computer aid so Proa knows ahead of time. I don't do that work. It's a little out of square and not finished, but at least it's an effort. The only thing Proa and Brent seem to produce is fecal matter; whether biological or vocal. Meanwhile, the pro's and others that use computer rendering in design make the sailing and boating scene in general, a much better place, and to have to deal with you and a guy who never even bought a car...

It just hurts

 

IMG_4377.JPG

Btw, Bob P; I didn't mean to type in "you and" the guy who never bought a car. Should have been :"And to have to deal with a guy who never bought a car".

You guys work way too hard for that type of insult.

I can't blame the typo on autocorrect, just poor thought to type editing 

The tiller has to come in at 57" from the post to clear the boom gallows so I have some room to work with and a lot of stock to reduce! But it does balance well and feels masculine as hell!

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José,

Your process is similar to the OEM engineering firms I have worked in. Mock up in 2d sketches, then complete the detail in 3d. Preliminary work in 3d is too slow, as you have to do too much detail. 2d you can rough in the important parts quickly and ignore the rest for later, which occasionally comes to bite you in the arse. 

Proa,

My last big project was 8.3m long, 3.45m wide, and 1.85m high. The inventor model had just under 10 000 total parts, over 3000 unique, 75% of them drawn and detailed by me. We had 2 weeks to produce at least 2 or 3 different layouts for quote, impossible in 3d given our resources

I find your grasshopper work interesting and a useful tool for certain things, but it is entirely useless for many types of computer design work. 

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3 hours ago, Rantifarian said:

Preliminary work in 3d is too slow, as you have to do too much detail.

3 hours ago, Rantifarian said:

impossible in 3d given our resources

3 hours ago, Rantifarian said:

I find your grasshopper work interesting and a useful tool for certain things, but it is entirely useless for many types of computer design work.

Any tool you aren't familiar with will be more difficult to use until you master it.  Arguments advocating 2D over 3D CAD can be summarized by a pair of proverbs:

  • "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know."
  • "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

I don't keep my Sketchup Pro updated anymore since Google sold it to Trimble, but for many applications (not boats!), it is a great 3D tool that is simple to use.  It has a "Layout" companion tool for producing many different 2D and 3D views of the same model, all of which are updated whenever the base 3D model is changed.  For example, here is a nine page .pdf layout of a Dutch Gable Hip Collar-Tie Bracket for 6:12 pitch roof:

hip_collar_bracket_2014_Page_3.thumb.png.a6b868f919e708ff6b61f642ba64d5e0.png

 

Programming is an art form that doesn't come naturally to everyone.  Many on the Grasshopper forum are dilettantes that will never get it, ever.  For those who can play with code like a musician plays an instrument, though, the applications are infinite.

twisted_box_2017Jun13c.thumb.png.8bcd8348214cba32055efe5963e0dd2b.png

cones_2017Jun5d.thumb.jpg.2fe5e91a513c07a7de8bab45fd177072.jpg

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13 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

5 minutes on the Net will give you all the lists you need - do your own research, preferably before perpetuating urban myths.

Less than 5 minutes gets me evidence against your claims. There are currently exactly 0 production cars with less than 0.24 Cd. Please, do answer my question.

Screen Shot 2017-06-18 at 9.44.53 AM.png

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15 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Drag coefficient per se isn't really important at all.

Drag is.
I don't give a damn what the car drag is, referenced to the frontal area (drag coefficient.) I care about the drag.
It's kind of like "global average temperature." I think it is stupid to talk about. Glaciers receding and sea level, well, that's something you can actually measure.

Cd is much like the dimensionless numbers we use to compare sailboat thingies. It's a relative comparison between vehicles. Obviously small cars have less total drag than big cars but the Cd is still a significant comparator - the lower the better.

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1 hour ago, nroose said:

Less than 5 minutes gets me evidence against your claims. There are currently exactly 0 production cars with less than 0.24 Cd. Please, do answer my question.

 

You're right - I agree. Manufacturers build cars with high drag for marketing purposes.

They are slipperier going backwards too.

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Can't remember what the CD was for my old Mercedes 280 se, but a fuel injected 4.5 liter v8 couldn't push that land yacht over 125mph even on the downhill run on a long bridge. The '68 Pontiac firebird would do about 140mph in the same situation. The beauty of the Benz was that it had a leaned back grill and forward leaning headlight assemblies. Couldn't have been much more wind resistant or more masculine.

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Pontiac had a 327 and a 2 speed racing transmission... the Benz had a/c and power windows

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

You're right - I agree. Manufacturers build cars with high drag for marketing purposes.

They are slipperier going backwards too.

 

I see, after I posted clear evidence against your clear false statement, we are going sarcastic.

You're right, the manufacturers don't actually care about selling cars, just about making their cars more and more efficient!

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17 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Straight answer. Your really smart, I'm a proponent of the fanned fret concept since linear frets suck if you do any dropped tunings

You've been after Bob as well, so stop and start letting us know about the cool things you can do and I hope you don't get too much heat. If you do, it's on you, you're in charge of your future. 

I'd rout out the lower bout a little more and flip the bridge pickup to get a brighter sound myself as a lead guitarist. Alder body is the tone and sustain wood...

Alder is too heavy and dense.  Swamp ash is where I live.

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1 hour ago, Whisper said:

Alder is too heavy and dense.  Swamp ash is where I live.

Well, I'm not going to argue with that. Sounds cool as hell for a guitar too. I just always liked the '79 Fender Stratocaster with the Alder body for some reason...

Mostly maple, rosewood and mahogany around here right now...

 

  

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

Well, I'm not going to argue with that. Sounds cool as hell for a guitar too. I just always liked the '79 Fender Stratocaster with the Alder body for some reason...

Mostly maple, rosewood and mahogany around here right now...

 

  

No thread drift here!

LOVE the tone of this one.

Edit:  Why in the hell are my pics sideways lately?

IMG_2747.JPG

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Back to yacht design in the morning!

IMG_4383.JPG

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6 hours ago, Whisper said:

No thread drift here!

LOVE the tone of this one.

Edit:  Why in the hell are my pics sideways lately?

IMG_2747.JPG

 

I am guessing you use an iPhone and then a PC. iPhone does portrait mode differently than some PC photo software.

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I've been tied up with my Italian intern today. Looks like ti will be an intense week, I'm going to have to give him 100% pf my focus. That should be enjoyable.


When Eric Clapton, Andre Segovia, Pepe Romero and Mark Knophler change their fret layout, then I'll consider it.

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On 6/17/2017 at 7:15 PM, Jose Carumba said:

As for your issues with Bob, just let it go.

Wish you hadn't said that, Jose.  Bob's behavior on these forums is not OK.  Perry is a relentless, malicious slime machine who takes pleasure in disrupting threads through personal attacks and vainglorious boasting.  He revels in sowing dissension, as if there isn't enough in this world already.

In a bullfight, I root for the bull.  Sometimes they win.  The banderilleros couldn't save this torero from his fate.  Another one bites the dust!  See the comments on the video.

 

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23 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Wish you hadn't said that, Jose.  Bob's behavior on these forums is not OK.  Perry is a relentless, malicious slime machine who takes pleasure in disrupting threads through personal attacks and vainglorious boasting.  He revels in sowing dissension, as if there isn't enough in this world already.

 

 

Geez, you'd think that shrill screeching about ad hominem attacks the other day came from someone other than you.

 

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Just now, B.J. Porter said:

Geez, you'd think that shrill screeching about ad hominem attacks the other day came from someone other than you.

You are confused about the difference between provocation and response.  Perry has gleefully and deliberately created and cultivated enemies.  The entire history of our interactions over the years are here in the SA archives (along with the Akashic records, of course).  He has been the provocateur all along.

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That's a great looking Strat Whisper. What is that strange looking ax?

 

Proa seems obsessed with my "behavior". Maybe he should work on getting a real life. I'm not comfortable with people like BS and proa being obsessed with me. I find it sick. Do they honestly think I'll change anything in my world because of their whining? Can't see that happening.

If I offend you proa that a choice you make, not me.

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Proa should be more concerned with his own behavior (which he can control) than Bob's (which he can't).

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22 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

Proa should be more concerned with his own behavior (which he can control) than Bob's (which he can't).

I can't control Trump's behavior either but that's no reason to be silent about it.

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

You are confused about the difference between provocation and response.  Perry has gleefully and deliberately created and cultivated enemies.  The entire history of our interactions over the years are here in the SA archives (along with the Akashic records, of course).  He has been the provocateur all along.

I don't know, I've watched these forums pretty carefully over the years and paid probably closer attention to a lot of shitfights and personalities in them.

You creating a post where you simply rage at Bob, insult him and impugn his character...seems to me you're picking that fight, not him. Yet you justify that as OK because it's a "provocation" instead of a response?

He doesn't seem to have a lot of tolerance for fools, so that could be why you feel picked on. But from what I can see, you're like a guy that instead of pumping the cesspool trunk into the tanks, you grab the hose and try to spray Bob with it every chance you get. And you don't care one whit who you have to spray that you think is standing by him.

Just my take, as someone that has taken an administrative interest in the shit fights over the years. I've never seen that Bob has cultivated enemies. But like any high profile person that steps in with his real name with a bunch of anonymous posters, he's got a fair amount of shitheads like you that come after him like a moth to a flame.

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1 minute ago, B.J. Porter said:

seems to me you're picking that fight, not him. Yet you justify that as OK because it's a "provocation" instead of a response?

You are still confused.  A response is OK, a provocation is not.  The bull isn't a predator, not even a carnivore.  Killing the torero was a response, not a provocation.

5 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I've never seen that Bob has cultivated enemies.

politics-monkeys-see_no_evil-speak_no_evil-political-three_wise_monkeys-rmcn94_low.jpg.df238e47ae3b96ca46afa3cd4baff907.jpg

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11 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

You are still confused.  A response is OK, a provocation is not.  The bull isn't a predator, not even a carnivore.  Killing the torero was a response, not a provocation.

politics-monkeys-see_no_evil-speak_no_evil-political-three_wise_monkeys-rmcn94_low.jpg.df238e47ae3b96ca46afa3cd4baff907.jpg

So how is it that you justify calling Bob a "relentless slime machine" then? Did HE provoke you to make that reply? Or were you responding to someone else's provocation, which I guess by your standards makes attacking Bob just fine?

It seems to me you have have a beam in your own eye to deal with here before you get your panties too much in a bunch over the mote in Bob's.

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Not knowing the history & only reading skimming through many posts, to enjoy content, as i feel ignore is a silly thing however i am sure many of youse see it as a power source to avoid the "need to reply" or simply not bother reading perceived shit alternative crap, for some reason.

The sad fact remains that not only here but in other sites as well, a few lost souls stalk around. More often or not the lost souls sees an accused fanboi, of said stalkee that posts something, the stalker will transfer their (it`s?) reply against their own object "de rigueur". It may be a jaunty jab or a sting or sometimes a full blown barb.

In CA tiz BP, many others it is DL and in PA here, waaay too many socks, that seems to be the almost full time occupation of folks like the random/ insert rwnj sock/ sportsgun lover and of course unresponsible tommygunnery.

In all thousands of posts that when viewed from the "itz all just shit ona page" POV, makes this non deplume/sock/ whatevs, very glad i have a life and a skin thick enough that trucking companies want the recipie, to make tyres out of!

Imagine how boring it would be if noone cross defficated in each others threads?

 

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2 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

This could be the start of a Music Anarchy thread. It would be nice to get off of this on and let the yacht design guys have it back.. hint hint.

I wonder how long it would take for MA to go south...

True Temperament really does resolve all the odd fret issues of the guitar; kinda wish my old Ibanez Iceman had them

B.J., wish you well in retirement from this site admin...

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20 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Pontiac had a 327 and a 2 speed racing transmission... the Benz had a/c and power windows

327 and powerglide = 140MPH?   

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We need design jizz like if you make composite chainplates do you make them shorter or longer, than a metal strap would be? ...is  the dynamic load better placed mid laminate or is it about the interwoven vibe of the thing, so that it distributes loads  evenly the entire carbon area just bangs like a drum, regardless of where one taps?

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1 minute ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

327 and powerglide = 140MPH?   

On the downside of a long bridge. Also, it was in the late 80's, maybe the number is a bit high... but didn't feel like it was pushing back against the air like the Benz..

What speed do you think it would be with that combo? I know it was the faster car but I'm not a gear head, just a reformed lead foot...

 

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11 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

This could be the start of a Music Anarchy thread. It would be nice to get off of this on and let the yacht design guys have it back.. hint hint.

I wonder how long it would take for MA to go south...

True Temperament really does resolve all the odd fret issues of the guitar; kinda wish my old Ibanez Iceman had them

B.J., wish you well in retirement from this site admin...

As a bowed string player, I shake my head in quizzical amusement at these sorts of "discoveries." (If you don't understand why, well, think about that for a moment).  But Tolgahan Çoğulu's

adjustable fretted classical guitar is completely cool and John Catler's ultra plus is fun--mostly because I did my own experiments like that once where I discovered that the 7th harmonic could be used for creating a "seven" tonality but without tremolo---which is essentially exactly what he does.

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Just now, Sail4beer said:

On the downside of a long bridge. Also, it was in the late 80's, maybe the number is a bit high... but didn't feel like it was pushing back against the air like the Benz..

What speed do you think it would be with that combo? I know it was the faster car but I'm not a gear head, just a reformed lead foot...

 

Mechanical speedometer error increases exponentially above 60-70MPH or so. With the overall gearing that your car likely had (assuming a rear-end ratio around 2.73/3.23:1) you'd be turning in excess of 7K rpm at that speed.  More likely top end on that car (again, assuming a mostly stock/hot street configuration) was around 120, if everything was working well.   

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I want to know more about this mechanical speedometer error thing. Are you saying that my 38 MPH on my Raleigh Space Rider in 1976 (measured by a Schwinn Approved Speedometer) was a lie?

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18 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Mechanical speedometer error increases exponentially above 60-70MPH or so. With the overall gearing that your car likely had (assuming a rear-end ratio around 2.73/3.23:1) you'd be turning in excess of 7K rpm at that speed.  More likely top end on that car (again, assuming a mostly stock/hot street configuration) was around 120, if everything was working well.   

The 327 was the sweetest bore/stroke combo of all the small blocks. It could easily wind to 7K if it was carefully built. I've seen street 327's that put out well over 400 HP and did the 1/4 in the 12's - back in in the 60's.

The Powerglide would have no effect on top speed, only acceleration - it was still 1 to 1 in high gear. The PG is the trans of choice for a lot a drag racers right up to low level rails because it doesn't absorb as much power as bigger transmissions.

Having said that, 140 in a 1st gen Firebird would be doing very well - even on a downgrade.

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7 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I want to know more about this mechanical speedometer error thing. Are you saying that my 38 MPH on my Raleigh Space Rider in 1976 (measured by a Schwinn Approved Speedometer) was a lie?

I once got busted, via police radar, doing 81klmph in a 90 zone (Roseville Bridge Syd. heading East) A patrol car came along side me with two coppers yelling slow down and lots of arm waving!

I was purched atop of a 27 1/"4" wheeled 1947 BSA sprint frame, with a fixed rear sprocket 18 tooth and those gladitorial old metal pedals with art decco rounded spikes out the side, 48 tooth front cog ( naturally both of my feet were out of the toe clips and ballanced on the bull handle bars)

I did have a front brake but in a previous high speed real road dilema of riding around with no ratchet device on the rear sprocket, one does not get slowed or go A over T... the pads just spit out of those nasty side pull pressed metal brakes!

Luckily by now my white knuckle ride was rapidly slowed as the steep incline up the other side of the creek ( upper Middle Harbour) meant that with no gears and being by now a very shakey 14 year old i just walked up the never ending steep part thinking, maybe i will just walk down on the return run to avoid a similar adventure down the even steeper side!

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Buai:

Here are some chainplates being laid up for the carbon cutters. Hope this helps. Engineering by Jim Antrim.

CP_zpsj0bdnw9j.jpg

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Cheers Bob, i imagine it is engineered similar to replace a metal version.

I always ponder the greater value of intergal ones in the layup, however it does lead to a throw away/ unplanned obsolescence sort of side effect, in case of a murphys miss adventure.

 

Edit: Am i looking at the white part as a mold?

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fibre chainplates are a different animal than bolted. Length doesn't help with the load, it is width that matters, and eliminating a stress concentration at the ends o the chainplate (top and bottom) is super important and achieved through taper.
Note the flare to the fibres. This is the width aspect. If you simply make a longer fiber chainplate you merely move the stress concentration somewhere lower.

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

That's a great looking Strat Whisper. What is that strange looking ax?

 

Proa seems obsessed with my "behavior". Maybe he should work on getting a real life. I'm not comfortable with people like BS and proa being obsessed with me. I find it sick. Do they honestly think I'll change anything in my world because of their whining? Can't see that happening.

If I offend you proa that a choice you make, not me.

Hey guys, lets not FRET about such things, OK? 

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9 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

fibre chainplates are a different animal than bolted. Length doesn't help with the load, it is width that matters, and eliminating a stress concentration at the ends o the chainplate (top and bottom) is super important and achieved through taper.
Note the flare to the fibres. This is the width aspect. If you simply make a longer fiber chainplate you merely move the stress concentration somewhere lower.

Cheers: When i did my small boat with composite chain plates ( 1992)  i just made them splay about 4 times the surface area a tang would be, length was about the same for ease of work ( about 4 inches).

They are as solid now as then! Even survived some crazy opposite to design load forces when being towed sideways by rescue clowns one day.

After about 5 years even started using them as a tie down point when car topping, that in theory would peel them way from the hull! Secret was fuzzed kevlar into stand up grain timber, then carbon uni over that  to look pretty and be shiney hard.

 

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Buai:

Chainplates are pretty easy to get right. There are some constraints on a boat like the cutters, i.e. 6" high bulwarks. But I can't see ever having to move them. I have never moved chainplates once installed. CF chainplates solve problems that you can have with s.s. chainplates. No leaks for one. Also you can build very conservatively without any significant weight issue. I have told the story before of Dennis Choate doubling  the CF specs the designer had given him. Some builders have a feel for what they think is "enough".

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13 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Daniele is designing a powerboat for me. I am the client. Can you imagine?

Hmmm... They say that Doctors make the worst patients..

 

 

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Good luck to both of you on that project!

I'm envious as hell.

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Hide all the pictures of American production powerboats@! Find a coffee table book of Italian speedboats that you can leave lying around.

 

mg_5744jpg.jpg

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SemI:

I want a boat in the style of Kim's PB. It won't be Italian. But I do have copy of Carlo Sciarelli's autobiography sitting on his drawing board.

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6 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Wish you hadn't said that, Jose.  Bob's behavior on these forums is not OK.  Perry is a relentless, malicious slime machine who takes pleasure in disrupting threads through personal attacks and vainglorious boasting.  He revels in sowing dissension, as if there isn't enough in this world already.

In a bullfight, I root for the bull.  Sometimes they win.  The banderilleros couldn't save this torero from his fate.  Another one bites the dust!  See the comments on the video.

 

And here you sit, in a thread about Bob's projects, attacking him and calling him names.

WTF are you suggesting with the bullshit bull fight analogies?  Are you suggesting Bob captured you, locked you in a pen against your will, trapped you in a arena, and began taunting and stabbing you?

No, you're free to leave anytime you want.  A bull would have the intellect to do that.  You apparently do not.  You're just an unwanted and dimwitted mosquito taunting and poking and trying to suck blood from these threads, while resenting the justified swats that come your way.

As always, you provoke, we respond.

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Proa's problem explained:

 

Proa Braine.jpg

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3 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

Hide all the pictures of American production powerboats@! Find a coffee table book of Italian speedboats that you can leave lying around.

 

mg_5744jpg.jpg

Here's an American powerboat from the 1950's. And it's available for a bargain price. Keep the name.

00L0L_1KlCKIAyvhO_1200x900.jpg

Selling a pristine piece of Adirondack history. This boat is a 17 1/2 foot barrel back mahogany runabout precision built by a Saranac Lake craftsman in the early 1950's (Cleveland Boat Company Plan #89). It sat in dry storage unfinished until 2004 when it was professionally finished and outfitted with a period correct inboard Gray Marine "Fireball" 327 CID V8. Since completion it has been lightly used by an elderly couple and stored in their boathouse in the Adirondacks. It is currently winterized and in very good overall condition. Includes trailer suitable for transportation to its new home. Asking a very fair $15,000. You won't find another like it at this entry level price. Please no low ball offers.

https://westernmass.craigslist.org/boa/6156317183.html

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I did go and check his site. His resume is someone who lasts 6-12 months at a job. Maybe that is typical in his world of programming, but in mine if somebody is good you try hard to keep him. 

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10 hours ago, py26129 said:

Proa's problem explained:

 

Proa Braine.jpg

What? He has a male brain?

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On 6/19/2017 at 0:13 AM, Whisper said:

Edit:  Why in the hell are my pics sideways lately?

the short explanation: your Smartphone stores the information how you hold the phone while taking the image in the metadata.

when you than view that photo, most viewing software will use that information to display the picture the correct way.

html does not do that, so the forum software would require an external tool for the picture display which would include license costs jadajada...

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19 hours ago, Modernrate Buai said:

Cheers: When i did my small boat with composite chain plates ( 1992)  i just made them splay about 4 times the surface area a tang would be, length was about the same for ease of work ( about 4 inches).

They are as solid now as then! Even survived some crazy opposite to design load forces when being towed sideways by rescue clowns one day.

After about 5 years even started using them as a tie down point when car topping, that in theory would peel them way from the hull! Secret was fuzzed kevlar into stand up grain timber, then carbon uni over that  to look pretty and be shiney hard.

 

I want to know more about your boat!

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27 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

I want to know more about your boat!

That was the Mk4 8 foot skiff, built double diagonal bending ply over oregon stringers. Where i was building it, The Sydney Wooden Boat School, the onsite rigger Joe Henderson was looking at it saying i needed to get with the times, he was experimenting with Spectra runners for a Sydney to Hobart maxi.

The fun part was just before launch taking it to a wooden boat association meeting, this weird thing with what now looks like a cross between an open 60 or a fat version of the last of the AC mono slugs, with wide alloy wing outriggers to trap off and best of all no through hull fittings anywhere for anything, apart from a bung on the tuck & inspection port on the deck, clear finished alternating aircraft ply stripes, one clear the other stained walnut.

For impact damage control the exposed timber stem was spotted gum laminated onto queensland maple, a coz it looks nice & a red-brown stripe & b ) a shock absorber being a softer timber.

For the bowsprit i wound kevlar and again carbon unis, over a thimble, as i did not like the idea of chafe, with the fibres splayed either side then faired into to bow.

The mostly cruising conservative crowd liked the clear finish timber bits but the idea of carbon & kevlar sheathing was a bit over their heads haha!

As someone who was racing a sponsored carbon fibre 18 GP skiff at that time, i was always on the fringe among the oldies, but gave good minutes for meetings & lots of phone work help organising events etc.

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4 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Buai:

Could you please post a pic of your boat?

Bob it is already posted here earlier i think & being a skiff off topic, so i PM fast.

Anyhoo

And an active comment thread with links to the archived bits. One soon discovers that when changing or updating computers those good ol bookmarks are worth twice the price of a fakenews item three months after the reporter was struck down by a feather duster!

Search function frustration... almost as much. :)

-------->

 

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46 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

That is beautiful Buai. Is it your design? Need to catch up here.

David Payne (son of Alan) did the basic hull lines, however the deck sheer & nod to Gretel II, in side profile and fairing that was my own lofting, the guy running the coarse was pissed as at me, i really regret not getting an extra 1 & 1/2 inches more underwater at the rear ( side profile rocker), especially when i went from 90-98kg haha! It also would have reproduced the original buttock lines better and less displacementy.

( edit: Note i had already lofted it and that was rubbed out before class and a bad but more teacher friendly version created for the lesson)

( it sticks a bit before jumping on the plane).

David was quite taken by the surprize pintail & profile plus deck design, none on any of his plans... again to the tsk tsk of teacher and many lessons revolving around why one NEVER changes plans from a yacht designer, to the other six who did the build as part of a strip planking class.

I told the six quiety that if they were to change things they should always check with the designer ... lying through my teeth haha!

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My inclination in that case would be to encourage experimentation. Boring for a designer to see the very same hull pumped out time and again. I have converted several of my production boats to custom builds and I have always made changes. I like to think as time goes on I can always do better.

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Exactly Bob, the first set of lines i rejected and said i had already done that! With experimenting no point in doing a copy or exactly what we already know, as cheap rabbit holes are fun to explore.

Then again the owner/ builder with too little smarts results in a situation, a mate had to endure with a court case, costing time and drama even though thrown out, as the clown dreamer had increased the overall weight of this steel (lolz) build by 30% with mods and junk... then got an ambulance chaser to initiate legal action as the thing did not float on designed plan lines "empty" (ffs!!!)

Edit: A simple pilot house became a condo and almost a second mezzanine level cabin was added onto about 60% of the length.

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My intern, Daniele, is have a great time with the old tools. He has never designed a hull before. He's getting the hang of it quickly. Time to warm up the digital planimeter!

Dany%201_zpskma92kym.jpg

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Batten down the battens !

Old windsurfing buddy had a great sail-loft batten story:

He and a pal had a small sail making business in Florida in the 80s ( Coconut Technologies ) and ordered up a 30' long 1" x 1" lofting batten from Aquabatten,  or someone similar.

ETA comes and goes and they call up the company,  who explained that they were in a bit of a situation with the shipper,   because... well....they had COILED up the very stout batten into a circle for shipment and taped it up pretty good...but somewhere down the road it let loose inside the truck,  and there was some dispute about who was liable for the damages - imagine the SPROING !!!! of that baby going linear !

No idea if true or not,  but a great sailor's tale...

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Daniele holds up his completed hand drawn set of lines for a 48' chine powerboat. Not bad for a young man who had never done any hand drafting before. Tomorrow we transfer that shape to the computer and have some more fun with it.

088_zpsmhclivw0.jpg

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