Bob Perry

My newest project

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My guess would be that one of those NKE displays will be showing heading and that's what everyone will look at. In the modern world put a conventional compass somewhere on the boat, just in case the electronics crap out, but digital displays do it so much nicer and are easier to read. I  wonder how many bulkhead mounted compass globes have been cracked from getting clipped by winch handles trying to get to the cabin top winches? Also need to keep that bulkhead space clear for reclining against while in port.

Also in the cockpit, seeing people in it, the cockpit looks really wide. I'm sure it just an illusion since Bob has done a million cockpits and would get it right, but sitting on the seat with your back against the coaming will your feet reach the opposite seat edge? Either that or you'll need seat belts to keep you from sliding off your perch.

In the interior. The woodwork looks gorgeous, man what a lot of work. 

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Sean:

I have some definite ideas  about cockpit design distilled over the years. They are only benchmarks. Not rigid requirements. My choice for well width is 22". This the best for bracing your feet on the opposite seat edge. FRANKIE is 24" at helm/tiller position. However, for most people this is too narrow for the rest of the time you are in the  cockpit. The cockpit is not just for driving the boat. Our cockpit is 32" wide. This allows for a cockpit sole "soft patch" hatch to access the engine big enough to allow the engine to be removed. This was a primary concern.

 I prefer really deep seats, at least 24" and as deep maybe as much as 36". 18" is minimal but what you normally get. Wide seats make for great napping and a wide variety of seating positions. Our seats are 24.5" deep. Trust me on this. Check out how people really sit the next time you go sailing. I do not think people, when steering, lean back against the seat back. Note my deck plan shows a hiking stick to offer even more seating positions. I favor siting on top of the seat back for the best view. Note on almost all race boats there is no seat back at the steering position. More options. Lots of things are going on in this cockpit area and you can't alway use your ideal dims while satisfying all your requirements.

As for winch handles cracking the compasses. Both of those inboard house top winches are electric winches so I doubt winch handles will be used most of the time. In 15 years with a similar set up on the PERRYWINKLE I never once cracked a compass with my winch handle,

As for reclining: The bulkhead angle is borderline too steep for comfortable reclining. This would depend on the recliner. Cushions will  rectify this.

If there is a problem with the cockpit layout on No. 1 it will be resolved on the subsequent three boats and probably addressed on No. 1.

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I have a plethora of compasses, but the 2 I use  ALL the time are the ones mounted on my bulkheads.  Perfectly aligned with from my windward crouched position. I have a Sailcomp, a binnacle compass, and a digital repeater (COG on chartplotter) all within my view, but I couldn't live without the 2 on the bulkheads. When I'm driving OPB's I'm lost.

Love the boat Bob and since the compasses are perfectly placed, when Lotto hits, I take hull #5 (with mods of course). 

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6 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Damn Sculper, why didn't you bring it up sooner?

If the guy can afford 4 carbon boats I don't think an extra 4 compasses is going to break the bank...  Besides, who needs 150 posts on the death-trap properties...

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A big binnacle compass under a nice rail is the only good thing about wheel steering.

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On 6/8/2017 at 0:44 PM, SemiSalt said:
On 6/8/2017 at 9:56 AM, TwoLegged said:

If the compass was mounted on the aft face of the bridgedeck, as Bob seems to have proposed, then the most forward-seated crew can retain their torso (lucky them!), but must have their legs chopped off.   I can imagine some ungrateful crew objecting to this :rolleyes:

With twin compasses, yes, you can use the leeward one.  It's still handy to have both, cos a quick glance at the windward one before peering leeward allows the leeward one to be calibrated without having to calculate the offset.

I you want to combine a single compass with a tiller, the best solution I have seen was to mount it centrally on the cover of the sliding mainhatch.  I only ever used this on an ealy-70s Rival 32, but I think I saw it on earlier wooden boats

As usual at SA, it's a racing mindset brought to a cruising boat.

 Semi, you've lost me.

What of that is inapplicable to cruising?

Sure, these days a lot of time will be spent on autopilot.  But surely I'm not the only one to want to be able to see a compass when there are 2 or more people in the cockpit?

 

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Leggs:

You may be forgetting the goal of this boat. This boat is designed and intended for long, offshore passages with a crew of four. I sincerely doubt there will be many times when someone will need to be glued to either compass. We have auto pilot and back up auto pilot already installed. Given that offshore the on deck crew will most probably be two people I do not see this at all as a problem.

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16 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

You may be forgetting the goal of this boat. This boat is designed and intended for long, offshore passages with a crew of four. I sincerely doubt there will be many times when someone will need to be glued to either compass. We have auto pilot and back up auto pilot already installed. Given that offshore the on deck crew will most probably be two people I do not see this at all as a problem.

I'm sure it will work great.  The arrangement chosen is the one I like.

I was just puzzled by Semi's comment.  Sure, on offshore passage there will be little hand-steering, and rarely two people seated in the cockpit.  But for the times that does happen, I'm glad there is a setup which works.

Your description of the flush-mounted central compass sounds elegant as well as v workakble.  You've done this design thing before, haven't you? ;):D

Do you have any pics of such a compass?

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On 8/5/2017 at 1:16 PM, Bob Perry said:

 

018

I have a similar bulkhead arrangements with the companionway flanked by outboard compasses and displays (also NKE; the port side one is barely visible behind tails in the photo below).  Murphy's Law means that no matter where you put the displays, a tail will fall directly over them.  Can't be helped! 

 

With the NKE units, where the buttons are on the right side of the display (both gyro and multi graphic), I have found that people tend to mash the buttons when they exit the companionway, especially the port side unit. The displays are right in line with where your hand falls.  On future boats, you might consider moving these even a few inches away from the companionway opening.   It's no big deal when someone manages to push the "page" button and the numbers change; it's a little more interesting when you are, say, docking the boat, and someone pops out of the hatch and turns on the autopilot by accident.

 

These boats look fantastic.  Beautiful work by both designer and yard!

 

13 threebeans cockpit.jpg

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Treef:

Thanks for the tips. Perhaps a small vertical  "guard" running down the edge of the companionway could prevent the docking/ AP disaster. I'll suggest this at the yard.

Are you happy with your NKE gear?

 

Leggs:

Love to take the credit but I can't.

The centerline,bridge deck mounted compass was not my idea. Robert Flowerman is a friend and professional sailor. He's my age. He works at the yard.  He helped Commodore Tompkins deliver his boat back from Hawaii this spring. The bridge deck compass was Robert's idea. He has so many sea miles on so many boats that I listen to whatever he tells me. He has been instrumental in the details of the deck layout of the cutters. I liked his bridge deck compass suggestion.

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Bob,

I'm sure Jim Betts would be able to fabricate something exquisite.  It's a sea trial thing; maybe the ergonomics and geometry won't require it on the carbon cutters.  But something to think about; it has been a minor peeve to me.

I'm happy with my NKE system.  I keep adding to it so I guess I like it!  Euromarine Trading in Newport is the US importer and they have been very responsive and helpful with questions.  I hope Mr. Lucky sprang for the NKE wireless remotes; if he did not, they are a must-have for shorthanded sailing and also function as a man-overboard alarm.

BTW did you notice the Flying Tiger in the background of the picture I posted?  One of your rockets outsailed and outpaced me a few weeks ago.  Slippery little things!

Cheers

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1 hour ago, treef said:

I have a similar bulkhead arrangements with the companionway flanked by outboard compasses and displays

Nice workable cockpit, treef.

What's the boat?

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Treef:

Yes, I see the Ft10m now. They are slippery and fun to sail. Fits in a box too!

I think my client sprang for the full bore NKE system. Getting the backup system to work wit the flip of a switch proved to be a challenge but it's all working now. The guy who sold us the system retired and there was a bit of a hiccup at that time but all is good now.

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Two Legs: It is a modified Santa Cruz 37.

Bob: I am guessing the guy who retired was Bob C?  He knew lots about marine electronics.  Though, after many years of playing with NKE, I think I know a fair amount now.  Like where a junction box is labeled for the "noir" wire, it might actually want a yellow wire, or sometimes a blue wire.  Let me know when you want me to come out for the sea trial and help to figure out that stuff :D;)

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Santa Cruz 37?  Lovely.

With all your NKE expertise, I'd say Bob should book you for a week's intensive sea trials on the carbon cutters. It'd be a pity for such boats not to be intensively tested ;)

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Treef:

I'm pretty sure I can arrange a sail for you on the cutter. Would  be very helpful to have someone along who was familiar wi5th the NKE gear. I aint me babe.

Let me know if you are interested.

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23 hours ago, treef said:

Bob,

I'm sure Jim Betts would be able to fabricate something exquisite.  It's a sea trial thing; maybe the ergonomics and geometry won't require it on the carbon cutters.  But something to think about; it has been a minor peeve to me.

I'm happy with my NKE system.  I keep adding to it so I guess I like it!  Euromarine Trading in Newport is the US importer and they have been very responsive and helpful with questions.  I hope Mr. Lucky sprang for the NKE wireless remotes; if he did not, they are a must-have for shorthanded sailing and also function as a man-overboard alarm.

BTW did you notice the Flying Tiger in the background of the picture I posted?  One of your rockets outsailed and outpaced me a few weeks ago.  Slippery little things!

Cheers

It might not be a bad idea to add a grab rail just inside of the NKE's. Its never a bad idea to have extra grab rails, they would do double duty to shield the buttons, and third duty as somewhere to rest a foot when heeled. Fiddles would also work, but I like the added bonus of actually using them as a grab rail. 

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Thanks Stumble. I hate to ask the crew to add something at this stage. They are busting their asses to get the boat finished. IU think I'll hold off until we sail the boat and then see just how much a problem if any it is. I do like the idea of hand grabs on the sides of the companionway. I see them inside all the time but not outboard. 

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I think it's worth remembering that a boat is never done, and we learn a lot by sailing them. If stuff can be added later I think it's a good idea to wait.

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kdh:

Yes, I have had so many "Have you ever considered,,,,,,'s" on this that I think it best to wait and see. No doubt there will be some fine tuning o the way to being "done".

"So what are you going to do when a huge, blob like alien comes down on a blue tractor beam and sits right in front of BOTH compasses? Huh? Huh? Betcha didn't think of that."

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

kdh:

Yes, I have had so many "Have you ever considered,,,,,,'s" on this that I think it best to wait and see. No doubt there will be some fine tuning o the way to being "done".

"So what are you going to do when a huge, blob like alien comes down on a blue tractor beam and sits right in front of BOTH compasses? Huh? Huh? Betcha didn't think of that."

Brent would know what to do.

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2 hours ago, Whisper said:

Brent would know what to do.

No self respecting alien would land on a BS boat.

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23 minutes ago, Whisper said:

Not even for the anal probe?

326149-19.jpg

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I like the dual instrument displays and compasses on each side of the companionway. If the client needs a cruising configuration for folks hanging out in the cockpit, I could see custom cushions with tapered cutouts for each NKE and compass.

For driver back/side rests, I like a Lifesling on the inside of the lifelines on each side.

Cheers

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I don't think this is an issue at all. If some fat ass is blocking the compass, just tell them to move!!

  •  

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It would work better for a space capsule than a sail boat. :D

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Speaking of space capsules, here is Jim Betts working in his "argon sphere". He is welding up the inner forestang tang and staysail tack fitting for cutter no. 1. As I'm sure everyone here knows, you must weld Titanium in an argon gas environment. The plastic bubble extracts all the oxygen and replaces it with argon. Jim sticks his hands in the "gloves of protection" and welds away. It took about 5 minutes to inflate the sphere with argon. This sphere is made in Arlington, WA not too far from the shop. Is this cool or what?

087

 

086090

 

091

 

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19 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

I think ANAL PROBE is the name of BS's boat.

I have been laughing for two hours.

The mystery bulges and conical ends do resemble a big butt plug.

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Lotta complex systems in this boat.

I know that the owner can write cheques to keep it all fighting fit, but I'd not like to have to fix it at sea

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1 minute ago, TwoLegged said:

Lotta complex systems in this boat.

I know that the owner can write cheques to keep it all fighting fit, but I'd not like to have to fix it at sea

Yes, But it sure seems like a lot of thought has gone into to choosing the best equipment, installing it in the best possible manner, and providing decent access to it. I rather like the dual autopilot installation - you just know one is going to fail, so you are ready with the back-up already installed. There sure are a lot of "things" on the boat - but everything seems to be the best of its class, and installed right.  I think it should be very reliable for quite a while.

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8 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

You won't have to Leggs.

Just planning my carbon cutter, Bob :)

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Leggs;

For me this boat is way too complex. I like to know what I am looking at. I shy away from gear I can't fix or understand. I am not the mechanical/elec type.

I have a funny story about that but I'll save it.

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I did know you have to use argon when welding Titanium, and Ti is very reactive so you have to be careful, but figured it would be like a typical MIG gun hooked to an argon bottle, not a complete envelope containment.

I bet there are those people that do weld Ti with just a MIG gun and do o.k. but this seems like a superior system, though it must be damn hard to see through the bubble.

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Zonks:

Because Jim is now doing the 60' cat in Ti he has done a lot of experimenting with welding techniques. He is sold on the argon "bubble" technique for quality welds. He was showing and explaining details and differences to me today but unfortunately a lot of it went over my head.

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I'm surprised a vinyl bubble stands up to welding environment.  Must be a whole different world from a stick welder.  I do a lot of controlled atmosphere work, for completely different reasons.  With a catalyst to scrub down traces of O2, I ca get it down to less than 0.01 ppm O2, per the meter.  Other applications use a stream of gas on the bench top, but to blanket something the size of a weld bead would waste a lot of gas.  It also takes a certain amount of time for O2 to desorb from surfaces.  And those bottles of argon gas that used to cost $30 are up to something like $600 now!    

It's not actually hard to see through the bubble... until the sweat starts dripping off your nose and smudges it...

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Ti can be welded with Tig/Mig, but it takes special equipment (gas cups) to properly shield both the front *and* the back of the weld.  And even then it's tricky to get right.

I like the bubble. 

 

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Kir:

Jim has also been using "gas cups" as far as I could tell. He has several made for different welding areas. Says it's a PITA.

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Just think what BS could do with that argon bubble. :D

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Jim has been long at work spec'ing a welding machine with Miller and now they have some sort of hybrid TIG/MIG or wirefeed TIG that he refers to as the 'FRANKENWELDER'.  It is a WIP but I'm pretty sure the Miller guys are taking notes on Jim and what he is stepping up to the plate for and hopefully hits it out of the park. The dome is an interesting addition to the toolbox. 

BS would have that bubble hooked up to some sort of Hookah and would get even less work (if that were possible!) done. 

On a serious note I think the real challenge is gas shielding the back side of the weld which gets hot enough to suck up contaminates our of our atmosphere and get wonky. Hopefully the Bubble will help.

 

'Jim, Were going to need a bigger Bubble!'

Image result for boy in the bubble

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That is a pretty large battery bank.  What kind of Amp-Hrs do these system require?  Is there going to be solar to go along with it?

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Welding Machine? There is one under each settee on that boat. Lots of lightening there. LiPo too I bet. I can't read the labels. Have you seen the generator hooked up to the prime mover? That is where the magic comes from. I still say the boat needs a Faraday Cage.

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Yes Ed, induction cook top.

No solar Sailman

I will call the yard this morning and get the latest spec on batteries and alternator.

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Wow!  Electric cook top.  Induction is a cool concept but still that's a lot of power for a hot meal.  I am guessing the customer did not want propane or cng?

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Ed:

Yes, custom grp housing. No temperature issues yer., However, if an alien came down on a pulsating tractor beam and enveloped it in it's blobulous form, cutting off the ventilation, we may have a problem.

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Hinckley use an induction cooktop on their Talaria 43 powerboat, but there's a 13.5kW generator that always runs.

 

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13 hours ago, sailman said:

That is a pretty large battery bank.  What kind of Amp-Hrs do these system require?  Is there going to be solar to go along with it?

Sure is. They look like 14 x 180 AH maybe. Scary and expen$ive too. Did we see the capacity of the genset ? 10kw ?

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On 2/10/2015 at 8:50 PM, IStream said:

I realize that the client gets what the client wants but I just can't reconcile the "simplicity" mantra with twin diesels on a sailboat. Simplicity is a rebuilt Ford Lehman, three stages of fuel filtration, and a lazarette full of spare parts.

^^^^^^^

 

Obviously the client gets what the client wants, but this is a pretty succinct statement of what I would implant on their brain if I had a mind control device - seems spot on.

Also should add I just realized this is from 2015. Ha. That's what I get for posting without checking to make sure I'm on the last page. 

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

No gen set Sav. I'll post the exact specs of the system, after my dentist appointment this morning.

Right. A big alternator on a PTO if I remember correctly. So the engine will be run while cooking. Not the worst thing, I guess.

A quick search on induction cooktops gives power requirements for a 9" burner at 3kW or 250 amps at 12v. Serious juice.

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

No gen set Sav. I'll post the exact specs of the system, after my dentist appointment this morning.

No genset ?  Good grief, charging those batteries with an alternator will take forever. I don't recognize them ( outta my pay bracket ) but the batteries in the pics are 12v not 6v meaning that the bank will be more than 2000AH. They look like compressed AGMs like these

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/mastervolt--slimline-compressed-agm-batteries--P010976439?recordNum=42

14 x 185 = 2590 AH  Even something huge like a 200A alternator won't cut it.

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Sav, it's a PTO-driven alternator. 200A would be small. Don't jump to conclusions, we'll get Bob grumpy and we won't find out the system details, about which I'm curious.

 

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4 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Ed:

Yes, custom grp housing. No temperature issues yer., However, if an alien came down on a pulsating tractor beam and enveloped it in it's BOBulous form, cutting off the ventilation, we may have a problem.

You heard it here first:  Bob is an alien.  I wonder what other forms he takes on?

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Whisper:

I am a man of many fawcetts.

 

Sav:

By all means jump to conclusions. How about this: you work under the assumption that this was thrown together system with very little thought given to it. You could even assume that the team who put it together had never put a complex electrical system together before. You could even assume Jim Betts has never built a boat before.

I'll just leave it at that. kdh was right.

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I have a PTO generator at the farm. Hook up a 60 horse diesel to it and I can power most of the farm.

Generators are heavy bastards though. Lots of wraps. But, I suppose using carbon lets you put the weight elsewhere.

It's weight probably offsets the battery bank.

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Routine bi-annual cleaning and fishing report Sav and no cavities, gums in great shape. But go right ahead with your assumptions.

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No genset seems like madness, but, its not my boat.  I'll let the check writer decide. :)

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Maui:

I suspect to you and a lot of other sailors the entire project "seems like madness". That's OK. I totally understand. That's why some sailors need a custom boat.

Here is the current interior layout, more head scratching fodder. I suspect.

bullet layout 8-10-17

 

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Being reminded of the layout confirms my preference for the center cockpit deck saloon version you posted a while back. This looks good for offshore, but I'm more of a lounging space kind of guy. 

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A big bank and a PTO alternator to charge it, also hydrogenerators if I remember correctly. Nothing to worry about here.

I think solar would be ridiculous in this context. Not worth the trouble.

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48 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Yes kdh;

Wattsea hydro generators each side of the rudder.

300 amp alternator..

That sounds just bobulous!

(A new adjective for the day)

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For those interested in the electrical system of the cutters for Hull No. 1 it is as follows;

All batteries are Norstar Group 31 AGM batteries. We felt there was an advantage to having all batteries identical.

The house bank is under the port and stbd settees and is 6 batteries per side.

There are two nav gear batteries, one per side under the settees.

There is one engine start battery under the port Q berth.

There is one 300 mp alternator running off a jack shaft off the engine PTO.

 

The choice of electrical components was a long and drawn out exercise in comparing components and evaluating them against the client's needs and preferences. While I whacked away at the initial drawings weeks were spent working on the electrical system. Yes, lithium batteries were looked at in depth but in the end the client felt more comfortable with conventional batteries.

Note the toe kicks on all joinery faces.

056

 

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3 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

MisterMoon:

Wait till you see that config in 52'. Sometimes more is more.

That would be cool as shit!

I like the high top version 

 

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6 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

MisterMoon:

Wait till you see that config in 52'. Sometimes more is more.

You're actually going to leave us drooling? For how long?

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Dumb questions from someone who hasn't read the whole thread:

I've really been enjoying this thread since I picked up on it, but I haven't managed to roll through all 108 pages to find answers to some questions.  Anyone willing to answer these:

It looks like the two engine plan got scrapped. Is that right? Were there systems modifications that addressed the redundancy requirement?

I may be reading the accommodation plan wrong (almost certainly, actually) but I see the quarter and pilot berths, but no large berth.  Is there v-berth forward of the head?  I see a ladder down into a storage area.

There are references to Mr. Lucky's intended use in some later posts, but I can't find the posts that address them.  Anyone willing to summarize? For what looks like a bug out boat(s), there is a lot of reliance on electronics that wouldn't survive an EMP. What's the thinking there? (I'm not sure an EMP is a threat we'll really face, or that if it is that it wouldn't be the smallest part of the problem in the end, but this looks like a survivalist's project, so I'd expect it to work in a post electronic world.)

SSB

 

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6 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

I suspect to you and a lot of other sailors the entire project "seems like madness". That's OK. I totally understand. That's why some sailors need a custom boat.

Here is the current interior layout, more head scratching fodder. I suspect.

Stepping back from the details and looking again at the whole layout, what strikes me most is the celibacy of the sleeping arrangements.

Sixty years ago, a single-berths-only boat was common, maybe even the norm.  Now, the only production boats like that are hardcore racers.

For over 30 years, sailboat interior design seems to have been focused on maximising maximising the number of double berths.  This boat has none.

Sure, the basis of the choice is simple: single berth good offshore, double berth good for couple at anchor.  The shift reflects changing use pattens.

The owner's reasons for wanting a 100% offshore-focused layout are none of my business. But it seems to me to be the single most custom aspect of the whole design.  Other boats have long keels and/or retro styling, and plenty others have complex systems.  But single-berth-only is unique

 

 

 

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bob:

The two engine idea was scrapped when we realized it was too tight a squeeze for maintenance. I was disappointed. I was anxious to see how the boats would perform.

Yes, you are reading the drawing incorrectly. I even provided a scale bar so problems like your's could be avoided. But the image is small so it's difficult to be precise

These are sea berths. Dorade style "coffin berths" are 24" wide at the shoulder. My berts are 28" wide at the should in the pilot berth and 30" wide at the shoulder in the Q berth..

Q berths are 6'10" long and pilot berths are 6'8" long. Most consider 6'6" adequate. I am rather large and I tend to size interior components to my own dimensions. Seems  to work quite well.

As to the use of the boats, that will have to remain a mystery. They will be sprinkled around.

Maybe this layout image will be easier for you to read. If you want higher resolution open up the pdf file link below. You'll see more detail.

bullet layout2

 

bullet layout2.pdf

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41 minutes ago, sshow bob said:

 this looks like a survivalist's project, so I'd expect it to work in a post electronic world.

 

A survivalist's project would be very different.  Maybe completely different.

This is a no-expense-spared ultimate offshore passage-making boat

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2 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

 

This is a no-expense-spared ultimate offshore passage-making boat

for the owner and a couple of you guys maybe...

the design is certainly the ultimate in idiosyncracy.., which is kind of cool..., and i like the boats  - for sure they are going to be great looking boats, and the craftmanship looks exceptional.

 

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It's not my job to tell any client what he wants. I tell them what they need. I explain the pros and cons of features. I tell them what works. Anbd while they donlt want t hear about it, I explain how features can effect resale value. I want to be sure that later on, in the back of their head, there is a little voice that reminds them, "Oh yeah, Bob said we would regret that choice." When I have done that I do my very best to give them what they want in a form that I too am happy with and will not jeopardize the performance of the boat.  I think the only time I have had the luxury of designing a boat that fits all of my needs is FRANKIE. It's a pretty idiosyncratic boat also.

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6 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Me too. Perfect in every way.

If any other designer said that about any other boat, I'd mock them.

But you're fully justified saying it about Frankie :)

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