Bob Perry

My newest project

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But then, Tom knows "seawall taxing district".

 

Best bargain imaginable! I pay $500 a year, and the city replaces my seawall when it fails, and keeps the canals and channels dredged! :)

 

gallery_75266_1131_124483.jpg

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Bob - This may have been answered somewhere but I'm curious. Are you using the downward curved main traveler you show in the some of the renders? Catalina used a similarly curved traveler and the first upgrade many owners make is getting a straight one. The downward curve stops you from easing the traveler down when the sheet is tight.

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But then, Tom knows "seawall taxing district".

 

Best bargain imaginable! I pay $500 a year, and the city replaces my seawall when it fails, and keeps the canals and channels dredged! :)

 

gallery_75266_1131_124483.jpg

 

I've got an aunt and uncle in that maze somewhere. They manage to find their way back out in the spring. How long does it take to get out of there at a rational speed in a boat?

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I've got an aunt and uncle in that maze somewhere. They manage to find their way back out in the spring. How long does it take to get out of there at a rational speed in a boat?

 

gallery_75266_1131_124483.jpg

 

 

 

...How long it takes to get out depends on exactly where your lot is located.

Some folks are 5 minutes from open water, others are 55 minutes from open water.

I am 13 minutes from open water. How long it takes you to get out affects the price/value of your lot - lots with close access are more expensive than lots with distant access.

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With rising ocean levels, there's going to be some fire sale prices in that Florida sub division before the end of the 21st century. And by then my house, which is about 50 feet above sea level, will offer 'along side mooring' in the backyard.

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Photos taken inside the upside down hull no. 1 showing bhds. and floors being bonded in. One bhd. left to go. Notice how clean and neat the work is.

New%203_zpsefydy9l0.jpg

 

New%201_zpsknfpv0ey.jpg

New%202_zps50mli0m5.jpg

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Is that glass biaxial tape in Vinylester resin?

 

???? Why would you do that on an all carbon boat? Maybe I missed the smiley.

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kdh:

You don't have one? Where do you put your essential shit? Mine is made of Bubinga wood. It's a beauty. My buddy made it for me. I designed it. No groove though. Damn.

 

That's where I keep my guitar picks. Old guys need to rock once and a while.

The son of a gun drummer had a hell of a workout on that gig.

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Yes Olaf.

It's all carbon tape in epoxy. There is no polyester resin used in this boat, anywhere.

Thanks, I obviously wasn't paying attention.

 

Nice to think they will still be around in 100 years .....

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kdh:

You don't have one? Where do you put your essential shit? Mine is made of Bubinga wood. It's a beauty. My buddy made it for me. I designed it. No groove though. Damn.

 

That's where I keep my guitar picks. Old guys need to rock once and a while.

 

Yup. The old fucks still got it. I agree Bonham Jr has it too.

 

I want to say they play that tune just a bit slower than the original, to good effect.

I had the privilege to be at their first rock concert in 1969 at the Festival of Blues, Bath, UK. I was cruising the internet looking for info on their history, and lo and behold, there's a pic of me laying down in the crowd near the stage. :D

post-5483-0-74175200-1447912837_thumb.jpeg

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Vinny:

First the bonding and filleting, then the tabbing and no bag although I'll ask about that tomorrow when I am at the yard. I've never seen a bag in the hull.

 

WHL: Which guy is you?

Our band played with Zeppelin once. It was an outdoor afternoon show and they were the headliner. We played and I went home. I didn't stick around to see them. Brilliant move on my part.

 

kdh:

I think that that tortured slow pace is what gives the song it's tension and compels you to listen all the way through. You keep begging for it to speed up and it doesn't. In fact, I'd need to listen again, I think it slows down! Not sure if it was faster the drummer could use all that busy syncopation. I had to tap my foot while listening to stay on "one".

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Photos taken inside the upside down hull no. 1 showing bhds. and floors being bonded in. One bhd. left to go. Notice how clean and neat the work is.

New%203_zpsefydy9l0.jpg

 

New%201_zpsknfpv0ey.jpg

New%202_zps50mli0m5.jpg

 

Liking this Bob, keep the pictures coming.

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So, I'm not wrong when I hear some slight drift of time between the drummer and the rest of the band. It's not much, but my ears clearly pick it up.

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Nice clean work on the bulkheads Bob. Top rate.

Right! and no mask tape line either. His shop guys are top shelf when it comes to the details.

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BJ:

That's usually the band trying to catch up with a runaway drummer. I played with a rushing drummer for about three years. Drove me nuts. You can never establish a "pocket".

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Snip......

WHL: Which guy is you?

Our band played with Zeppelin once. It was an outdoor afternoon show and they were the headliner. We played and I went home. I didn't stick around to see them. Brilliant move on my part.

Snip.......

 

Bob, I iz the one on the ground right behind the guy standing up at the right of the pic.

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Snip......

WHL: Which guy is you?

Our band played with Zeppelin once. It was an outdoor afternoon show and they were the headliner. We played and I went home. I didn't stick around to see them. Brilliant move on my part.

Snip.......

Bob, I iz the one on the ground right behind the guy standing up at the right of the pic.

You know, it actually does look a little like you.........a much younger you!

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Went to yard today with North Sails rep. When you get five lofts involved bidding on a new project you do get quite an education in the sail making business. Keeping all the catchy names of the new fabrics straight in my head is a challenge.

 

Here is a look down the deck. The details are going on now. Then the deck will be faired and painted.

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Here are Jesus and his brother Javier smiling for the camera as they bond in the hatch opening frames. They have been with Jim Betts a long time. They communicate constantly while working.

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Here is Jim, relaxing in his plush office dictating to the help exactly how he wants the trav base positioned. The North Sails guy said, "Jim's kind of the hands on type." I said, "No shit."

J-3_zpswerhcdwv.jpg

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I'm no expert but I don't see a problem. When the boom is way off the centerline, the vang lets you change mainsail draft without affecting angle of attack, which is manipulated via the mainsheet. When the boom is near the centerline, the traveler lets you change angle of attack without affecting mainsail draft.

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^^^ But, we were told (in another post here in Cruising Anarchy) that in order to sail windward well, it was VERY IMPORTANT to drive with the traveler! B):D

 

My recipe for pointing in higher wind goes something like this

1) Flatten main sail - crank on outhaul, cunningham, backstay, whatever you've got.

2) If still overpowered, peel to a #2 jib if you have it.

3) If still overpowered, reef the main, lots of outhaul and halyard tension. Then crank all-in on the sheet and drop the traveler so that you carry a bubble in the luff, keep the battens flying, nothing else matters.

4) VERY IMPORTANT, drive with the traveler not with the tiller. A good main trimmer and weak helmsman will work better together than the opposite. The traveler should be working at least as hard as the tiller. As soon as the helm comes up the main trimmer should be dropping the traveler. You really should not bury the rail because the boat will slow and load up with weather helm (as we see in the videos in this thread). If you're single-handing, turn on the autopilot (if you have one) and drive with the traveler. When you do it right, it's like magic, the boat keeps moving on a constant heel with very little helm.

5) In blocky waves you might have to foot off to keep your speed up. Steering around the blocks is a bit like skiing moguls, lots of concentration required.

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Yeah kdh, you are missing the point. Totally.

I have done boats with high performance rigs and I have used travs on some on no travs on others.

I can always make the no trav rig work just fine..

 

But,,,,it sure is nice to have one additional control when you are trying to shape a sail.

kdh: Do you have automatic transmission on your exotic Porsche? I'll bet you don't. You want to play with the shit. You want to control all elements.

 

That's what we have here., i.e. lots of ways to pay with the shit. Some of us like that way of sailing.

" Drop the trav an RCH "

"Give me a skosh less runner"

"More mainsheet! Flatten that fucker out."

Whoooooo Hooooooo!

"Where's the outhaul?"

"More outhaul."

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<<Here are Jesus and his brother Javier smiling for the camera as they bond in the hatch opening frames. They have been with Jim Betts a long time. They communicate constantly while working.>>

 

You're sayng they talk ALL the time, so are given jobs where they have to wear respirators, just to shut them up?

 

E

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I can't help myself:

 

The boom's carbon fiber. I have one. Really stiff. The boat will have a hydraulic vang. I have the same one. Really effective. What that means is the vang sets the angle between the boom and the mast.

 

What, pray tell, is the traveler for? Ease the stresses on the vang and its attachment points? Get that bit of je ne sais quoi of a potential bend out of the boom? Has anyone determined that the boom will bend significantly?

 

Yeah, yeah, in light air the boom will be brought to windward. It's light air. The mother of all traveler bases is not necessary. A simple track with pin stops forward of the companionway is adequate.

 

If that's what the owner wants, for quaint reasons of his own, so be it.

 

I think it's dumb.

Yeah, travellers. SO dumb. Like they're needed.

 

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[/sarcasm]

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I got this from Jon Eisberg last night. Interesting. If yu don;t know Jon he is a well known delivery skipper and a sailor's sailor in addition to being an all round great guy.

 

"Yup, this is something some simply refuse to acknowledge, along with the notion that a boat can deliver you to your destination in comparative comfort, and still prove to be as "Fast" as a Hunter, or other comparable modern production designs...

Greetings from Nanny Cay on Tortola... Last night just before midnight, we crossed the finish line for this year's Caribbean 1500. I was sailing one of Bob's "obsolete, outmoded" designs, a meticulously prepared Valiant 42 named VALHALLA...

Best fall passage to the islands I have ever had. From the start to finish in 8 days, 16 hours, I doubt another V-42 has ever made a faster passage... Our rough calculation comes out to an average of about 6.7 knots...

Amazing what magic Bob worked with just 34.5' of waterline... We finished 2nd in our division, the winner was a foregone conclusion. Andy & Mia's Swan 48 ISBJORN was the winning boat in our class, some suggested partly due to a generous rating... When a Swan 48 in your class rates lower than a Hunter 430, and a Tanton 44, you know you're racing for 2nd place from the get-go... ;-)

Here are some of the better "performers" and boats with more waterline that we beat boat for boat, with a shorter overall elapsed time:

Bavaria 40
Catalina Morgan 440
Fontaine Pajot 43 catamaran
Prout 38 catamaran
St Francis 50 catamaran
Antares 44 catamaran

Last but not least, we finished about 2 hours behind the Hunter 430 DOUGI... But as they had started ahead of us, and tallied about 12 hours more engine run time than we did, we corrected out ahead of them... So much for a comparably-sized Hunter being so much "faster" than a Valiant, and in addition we probably sailed one of the longer routes in the fleet, getting East sooner and staying there longer than just about everyone else out there...

Of some of the other modern production boats in the rally, a Hanse 430 had to abandon, and divert to Bermuda with rudder bearing problems... No word on whether they will be taking the opportunity of hauling out to 'renew' their seacocks, while they're at it... And, the sole Beneteau in the 1500 - a 423 from Canada - is still about 100 NM from the finish at this time, so we'll have beaten them by about 2 days...

We had some pretty sporty conditions enroute, particularly the second night out after crossing the Stream, fast reaching in a near gale into confused seas in the wake of Hurricane Kate. I was very happy we were aboard a Valiant that night, it would have been a brutal ride aboard any of the Hunters or Beneteaus I have sailed... The damage report from this trip? One of the cams on a Harken cam cleat on our running backstay tackle lost its spring...

I'll post a fuller account later... But in the meantime, that Hunter owner here who's looking forward to mooning all those Bluewater Chuckleheads as he blows past them on his way to the Caribbean, may have to get ready to be dropping his pants for a LOOOOONG time when he comes up alongside one of Bob's Bluewater Slugs..."

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Jack:

You can bow the trav either way/ You can have a flat trav. The best method may be to have it bowed concave, opposite to what I have. Each way has it's advantages. I chose to bow it this way because the other ways look awful.

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I chose to bow it this way because the other ways look awful.

 

Three cheers! Great bowing technique, as the conductor might have said to the string section. Little winches for the traveller, or lots of blocks?

 

On musical speed I attended a talk given by a group of orchestral people, the other day, and it seemed to be an accepted truism that conductors get faster as they get older - the opposite to rock musicians. One of them described how an aged Charles MacKerras, a famous Mozart interpreter, took the Figaro overture so fast that he thought the wheels were going to fall off.

 

Back in my day, pub cover bands always give the impression that they were paid by the song, so fast did they go.

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Damn funny thread, love it! The boats look great, they are going to be special. Glad you won the mast/deck winch placement battle, a deck mounted winch farm has no place on a cruising boat. I understand it on a racing boat where you have a multitude of halyards and ample crew.

 

Will you be using any mast mounted halyard tensioners?

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I think the situation is similar to mid-boom vs end-boom sheeting. You control the loads better with the longer lever arm at the end where the traveler is also located. Less important on a cruiser.

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Vang sheeting is very effective but typically only used on dinghys. On big boats the ability to center the boom requires a traveler and the ability to quickly and easily change leech tension is best done through the main sheet. Upwind the vang is often loose.

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Bottom line is I am not philosophizing over this trav feature. I have done several big boats with no trav. I have done several big boats with trav. On the no trav boats I always felt that I could have trimmed the main better with a trav.

It's as simple as that. A traveler gives more sheeting options. Do you really need one? No. I had no trav on the mighty P'winkle. I sailed it for 15 years. But given my druthers, I'd always prefer to have a traveler. More options.

 

kdh:

When you have no traveler it is very hard or sometimes impossible to get the boom centered. If it's light and you want some helm by raising the boom above centerline the vang is worthless for that.

 

Look at the TP 52 fleet. Show me one of the 52's without a traveler.

 

Joli:

Yes, halyard tensioner on mast for Yankee halyard.

 

Mr. Ed:

No dedicated winches for trav controls just multiple purchases. Here's my thinking: Cruisers only need to let the trav down. When it gets light they can horse it back up with a quick luff. Racers need winches to control trav position so they can crank up the trav when it's blowing,if needed. People forget that a quick round up move by the cruising helmsman can relive the loads on the mainsail very effectively and done correctly you won't lose much speed.

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I'm no expert but I don't see a problem. When the boom is way off the centerline, the vang lets you change mainsail draft without affecting angle of attack, which is manipulated via the mainsheet. When the boom is near the centerline, the traveler lets you change angle of attack without affecting mainsail draft.

Why does the vang stop controlling mainsail draft when the boom is near centerline?

How do you get deep draft with the boom near the centerline without a traveler?

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Apart from the ability to sheet to windward there IS redundancy when you have both the traveler and the vang.

 

But pure vang sheeting on a yacht with this stability would give tremendous loads on the vang and boom and they would have to be dimensioned for it with correspondingly higher weight.

 

Tried eliminating the traveler on my 33 footer but didn't like the sounds of it. Back to traveler.

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Silver:

There is some redundancy is some ranges of trim. Not all. Vang and trav both have areas where the other will not work at all.

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I originally had no traveler designed on the Sliver project, that was until Derek, Bob and several other good sailors talked some sense into me. Why give up any opportunity to trim your mainsail better? Especially with a fractional rig.

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KDH, why mess around with a jury rig to get a standard mainsheet arrangement to pull from the windward side when the traveler is designed to do it already? It's simple, strong, proven, and continuously adjustable.

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Vang sheeting is very effective but typically only used on dinghys.

 

I vang sheet my 45' 30,000 lb dinghy with its dainty 960 sq ft mainsail. KDH is exactly right - the only thing you give up with no traveller is the ability to sheet to windward. And this can be accomplished with minor additions to the sheeting system (less work and equipment than a traveller). The only thing that affects the mainsail shape and trim is the 3D location of the clew. How that is positioned is a detail of execution, and can be accomplished easily without a traveller if you already have a powerful rigid vang.

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Sure, you can always rig up an additional line to pull your clew over to weather. You can jury rig lots of things. But if you have a trav you don't have to. It's there all the time and it allows a high degree of fine tuning the trim. If you are not capable or interested in fine tuning your trim then you would never notice the difference.

 

Again, if travs were of no purpose why do all the TP52's have travs? Is this not evidence that for a high degree of sail control they are very useful.

 

To each his own. Having done it both ways I have the experience to tell me that a trav works best for the way I sail. I will continue to design travs onto my boats unless a client specifically does not want one. It's a mute point with me.

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kdh: If you are trying to get your boom up past centerline then a frigid vang does NOTHiNG to help. If you are playing with mainsail twist in heavy air by pulliing the boom to weather a rigid vang is not effective. I would make the vang on any of my designs as wide as physically possible. I can control the main clew easily with a trav and avoid the huge loads imposed by a rigid vang.

 

No capable designer would not dream of designing a high performance boat without a traveler.

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No capable designer would not dream of designing a high performance boat without a traveler.

 

Not sure I can parse that sentence. But there are plenty of high performance boats without travelers. Depends on the boat, the rig, the objectives. From many points of view, a traveler looks like a jury rig. It is a well worn solution to the problem, but not the only effective one, and not without its own set of problems. For example it can reduce the work done by the vang, but increases it by the same amount in the sheet, which is on a sliding connection to the traveler, and has a huge range of movement - both bad from an engineering and operational standpoint.

 

I'm not going to argue the suitability for this boat, but certainly there are other solutions which are better for some boats, high performance included, and specified by capable designers.

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Yes, there are a few high performance boats that are not suited to travs. There are ALWAYS exceptions. But I am not going to bore myswelf posting photos of all the high performance boats that do use travs. I get the impression here that DDW and kdh just simply don;t want to understand this. Why the resistance? It sounds silly to me. Open your eyes, look at the current crop of race boats and then argue against travs, Do you think the TP 52's and various other racing boats have travs for AMBIANCE? I have this odd feeling that the best designers in the world think travelers work. But do it your way. As far as I can see the trav works quite well and is anything but a "jury rig".

art_zpsjh6abjzy.jpg

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Of course you can have a loose vang even if it's hydraulic. Just turn the knob and it's loose. Then leech tension is controlled by the main sheet.

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DDW, as I said you can set the leech tension with a hydraulic vang but if you want to control the leech tension it much easier and quicker with the sheet and a traveler.

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With a puff it's quick and easy to drop the traveler, when encountering a set of waves it's better to open the leach. Vang sheeting doesn't allow all the options.

 

I think those that haven't raced allot won't really understand the benefits of having a traveler.

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FWIW. Traveller gives you a wider sheeting angle and the ability to control twist at those wider angles. The Vang reduces twist when mainsheet eased off. Even some old timers had mainsheets running on horses and plenty of racing dinghies do.

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I think those that haven't raced allot won't really understand the benefits of having a traveler.

 

 

I think those who really love travelers haven't spent much time sailing on a boat well set up without one. Close hauled, the traveler acts as the cross haul and the sheet as the leach tension device Vs. the sheet acting as the cross haul and the vang as the leach tension device. The latter is actually more straight forward to trim, since the two functions can be better decoupled. It also provides the ability to effectively control twist over the entire range of boom angles, unlike a traveler.

 

Bob, if you had said "a traveler works well on ordinary racing sloops in the middle size range, built to popular racing rules" then I would not have uttered a peep. Painting with that large a brush though, spills a lot of paint. On a TP52 it may very well be the optimum solution. That is a tiny corner of yachtdom. About the only thing in common with the picture posted and a heavy short handed cruising boat is the water.

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FWIW. Traveller gives you a wider sheeting angle and the ability to control twist at those wider angles. The Vang reduces twist when mainsheet eased off.

 

This is in fact exactly wrong, unless you have an underpowered vang.

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Come over to the dark side and have two main sheets like us: "ease the port mainsheet" "harden the starboard mainsheet." It works, but a traveler would be easier. And no, gaffers don't have kicking straps (aka vangs).

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The thing is, when you're about to hit a series of waves and you want to open the top to drive through them then close the top and go back into point it's not easily done with the vang. The traveler and sheet work in concert to give you a range of sail control that isn't possible in some instances without a traveler and these controls are quick. Dropping the traveler is much faster then easing/cranking the sheet and its repeatable.

 

If you're cruising it doesn't matter but to say the traveler isn't needed for sail control is silly.

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I think you mean to say 'not easily done with my vang'. Which may well be true, but doesn't need to be. To open the top you want to release the sheet (on a traveler system) or easy the vang (on a vang sheeted system). Is it as easily done with either (correctly set up). Easing the sheet on a traveler has other effects though - it lets the boom out a little and up a little - and the proportion of these vary depending on where the traveler is set, not the definition of repeatable. The combination might be good sometimes and not others.

 

You are confusing poor implementation with ultimate capability.

 

To say that a traveler is needed for sail control is silly. All you are needing to do is set a point in space to which the clew is attached. There are other ways to accomplish this, as easily and as fast.

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I think you mean to say 'not easily done with my vang'. Which may well be true, but doesn't need to be. To open the top you want to release the sheet (on a traveler system) or easy the vang (on a vang sheeted system). Is it as easily done with either (correctly set up). Easing the sheet on a traveler has other effects though - it lets the boom out a little and up a little - and the proportion of these vary depending on where the traveler is set, not the definition of repeatable. The combination might be good sometimes and not others.

 

You are confusing poor implementation with ultimate capability.

 

To say that a traveler is needed for sail control is silly. All you are needing to do is set a point in space to which the clew is attached. There are other ways to accomplish this, as easily and as fast.

Unless you want the clew on the centerline.

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kdh:

Ok think for yourself. But it's not "one designer" it is pretty much every designer of performance boats. So go right ahead and think it out for yourself and ignore the background represented by the designers who advocate travs. Glad you think you have the background for it.Allow me to suggest some financial plans for you.

 

As as I am concerned DDW is playing some silly word game. It has zero to do with the effectiveness of a trav.

 

Try telling the designers of the Volvo 60's that travs are not needed. You would look like a fool.

volvo_zpsy5uhjb5m.jpg[/uR

Maybe call Reichel-Pugh, "Oh Mr Pugh, just wanted to let you know that you really don;t need a traveler." So on WILD OATS, 100'LOA with a canting keel, the traveler is just a style element? Maybe the designers did not "think it through" enough. Right.

rp_zpsl4swmvme.jpg

Those silly TP 52's adding all that weight with useless travelers. Give me a fucking break.

teepee_zpss4rvoaea.jpg

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What are those other easy and fast methods to control the main?

 

I can easily position the sail exactly where I want it from tack to tack by duplicating traveler position and sheet.

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I like travelers especially for close-hauled tacking even on a cruising boat. You set the traveler on the high side with the boom on centerline and don't touch the sheet when tacking. Just drop the traveler from side to side.

 

Another system is the German mainsheet system with two sheets to locate the boom but that's more fussing..

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Ok, I have a 36 foot cruising boat with a big main and a cutter rig.

 

No hydraulics, never want to go there, had enough trouble when I raced IOR boats.

 

No "one off" above the boom compression vang like DDW.

 

I sail with my wife, who is fit but weighs 100 lbs wet.

 

It's all about effective levers to us, a traveller at the end of a 15' boom is the only way we can control and shape our main on the wind.

 

When it's blowing, particularly in gusts, the traveller lets us feather the main and flatten it with the sheet, we are not playing it for racing, just cruising two handed.

 

Not a chance of us getting enough power into a conventional vang to do that.

 

Our vang is just for sail shape when the sheets are eased.

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I have always use the vang knowing it will give me lower mast bend, and flatter out that area of the main. Trav and sheet are purely clew position, vang has a forward force component as well.

We use both vang and trav on a 40' racer cruiser, but didn't bother with a trav in the 28' turbo trailer sailer.

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I am for vang and traveler but as I said before I sailed for 15 years on the P 'winlkle without a trav and did just fine. But, there were times I would have liked a trav.

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FWIW. Traveller gives you a wider sheeting angle and the ability to control twist at those wider angles. The Vang reduces twist when mainsheet eased off.

 

This is in fact exactly wrong, unless you have an underpowered vang.

 

Is that right? Well, I'll be fucked. I've been doing it wrong all these years.

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I'm kind of surprised this is all that controversial. It is just engineering 101. The vangs fitted to most sloops are not powerful enough to use vang sheeting. You are not going to be able to pin the traveler and suddenly have effective mainsail trim using the existing vang on equipment not designed to do it. But saying that it cannot be designed that way from the start is simply ignorant.

 

Let's start with something we can agree on. 1) The clew of the sail has no knowledge of the structure holding it in position, only the position in which it is held - agreed? 2) Holding the boom in place to create this position requires both an athwartships and an up/down component - agreed? If no one can agree on those then further explanation is pointless. There are a number of ways to supply those force components, of which a sheet to a traveler is but one.

 

A parade of photos showing an existing common practice is not persuasive to the argument that the practice is uniquely effective. "All swans are white".

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In my mind a boat without a traveler is like that nice PDK transmission if it was missing a couple of gears. You set the traveler at the correct sheeting point for upwind and then use the main-sheet to adjust quickly for puffs and waves - going back to basic point mode easily and quickly; the vang/g-nav being more important reaching and downwind.

 

Getting the boom on centerline is one very important aspect, especially when you don't want too much tension on the leech. I don't know how that's done with a vang? My cruiser has a not so great mid-boom mainsheet (though farther aft than many). I don't think I could get the main trimmed right without a traveler; the leech would end up being too strapped.

 

On a cruiser I worry that a very powerful vang loads up the boom too much, even with a very stiff boom section. I always try to balance the load with something father out on the boom.

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I'm kind of surprised this is all that controversial. It is just engineering 101. The vangs fitted to most sloops are not powerful enough to use vang sheeting. You are not going to be able to pin the traveler and suddenly have effective mainsail trim using the existing vang on equipment not designed to do it. But saying that it cannot be designed that way from the start is simply ignorant.

 

Let's start with something we can agree on. 1) The clew of the sail has no knowledge of the structure holding it in position, only the position in which it is held - agreed? 2) Holding the boom in place to create this position requires both an athwartships and an up/down component - agreed? If no one can agree on those then further explanation is pointless. There are a number of ways to supply those force components, of which a sheet to a traveler is but one.

 

A parade of photos showing an existing common practice is not persuasive to the argument that the practice is uniquely effective. "All swans are white".

No argument, DDW.

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No kidding, I was about ready to ask for some cooking tips for a pork roast that I've got for Sunday dinner.

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This sounds like another bloody just because you can do something it doesn't mean you should do it discussions.

Having more strings to pull gives you more options. Period. Especially when something breaks - maybe its just me but I've NEVER been in a regatta or on an extended cruise when something hasn't broken..... Occasionally important things like vangs, travellers, even a mainsheet block once. That was fun.

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kdh:

That's so cool. Now I can tell my friends that I know a "problablist". They will never fuck with me again.

Plastics! It's all about plastics.

Can I still drive your car?

 

As for DDW, it's not about words. It's about what works. You'r contradiction to Sailbye's post tells me that you may need to think harder.

It's not a word thing. It's a sailing thing. Open your eyes.

 

" Noooo everybody is wrong!"

Right.

I am so tired of this bull shit. Wake up and see what is working.

Why do I even

bother with bull shit?

Wow, I was out sailing all day today, adjusting my traveller up and down as needed for balance and speed. I came home to find a lengthy discussion on why travelers are not necessary. I am happy with my traveller and the control I get from it. And yes, I have vang sheeted too on several of my boats as needed.

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No kidding, I was about ready to ask for some cooking tips for a pork roast that I've got for Sunday dinner.

Get the crackling right, hobot. Everything else is window dressing. Well, the gravy is critical too I guess.

post-76289-0-41263900-1448171809_thumb.jpg

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No kidding, I was about ready to ask for some cooking tips for a pork roast that I've got for Sunday dinner.

Get the crackling right, hobot. Everything else is window dressing. Well, the gravy is critical too I guess.

Decent gravy is a mystery to me, dumplings too.

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FWIW. Traveller gives you a wider sheeting angle and the ability to control twist at those wider angles. The Vang reduces twist when mainsheet eased off.

 

 

You'r contradiction to Sailbye's post tells me that you may need to think harder.

It's not a word thing. It's a sailing thing. Open your eyes.

 

 

Let's just take a look at that one. A traveler controls twist only over the limits of its travel. An adequate vang controls twist over all sheeting angles, not just "wider angles". 360 degrees of sheeting angle on my boat, no traveler on board. And I can sheet the boom to windward without rigging a thing, anytime, by pushing a button. No, it's not a word thing. Yes, somebody does need to think harder.

 

You guys are taking this quite personally. Where did I say that traveler doesn't work? Where did I say it was "wrong"? I said that it wasn't the only thing that works. Go back and read the posts. If you open your eyes, look around, and think about it you will eventually agree. Limiting your thinking to what others have repetitiously done puts you in a pretty tight box.

 

Many of the posters, like Sailbydate, seem to be comparing in their minds a boat with a traveler to the same boat with no traveler. Yeah you may give up some control there. In that context what he said may be true. But that is not what I am talking about (or kdh, I think), rather I am talking about re-rigging the boat with a different system.

 

With a vang and a cross haul, I can position the clew anywhere you can with a sheet and a traveler (quite a few places you can't, too) and do it as quickly if that is the design goal. That doesn't mean a traveler is "wrong" - just not uniquely right.

 

Now about gravy.....

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This forum is wonderfully perverse. First of all a polite discussion about anchors ... unheard of, in my experience. Then a digging-in approaching a shit-fight over whether travellers are A Good Thing. And you haven't even got on the bow/arc/tangent of Bob's actual traveller!

 

Gravy begins with good stock, so you need a freezer full of frozen little cubes of the stuff that you made weeks before.

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Some of English extraction would argue: drippings, veg water and Bisto! I would rather argue about gravy than travellers. Mine is a PITA, Traveller that is.

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As the poet says.

 

"Everything exists, everything is true, and the earth is only a little dust under our feet."

 

Everyone is right in this argument. Cat's can be skinned in many different ways. It is often so.

 

What a nice boat. Are you happy with the furling boom?

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KD, a fine yacht you have, she looks very comfortable.

Question, when you fold the dodger forward is there any conflict/chafe with the mainsheet, and when you did have the traveller tackle running to a winch was there much effort required to pull the mainsheet block to weather?

Thanks to you and DDW for your traveller input. Experience tells me that there's no need for traveller purchase on a cruising yacht, when an upfucker run to the weather rail does the same thing more efficiently, for the odd occasion going to weather. Having no traveller and tackle leaves the deck and cockpit less cluttered. A race boat is a different kettle of fish.

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FWIW. Traveller gives you a wider sheeting angle and the ability to control twist at those wider angles. The Vang reduces twist when mainsheet eased off.

You'r contradiction to Sailbye's post tells me that you may need to think harder.

It's not a word thing. It's a sailing thing. Open your eyes.

 

Let's just take a look at that one. A traveler controls twist only over the limits of its travel. An adequate vang controls twist over all sheeting angles, not just "wider angles". 360 degrees of sheeting angle on my boat, no traveler on board. And I can sheet the boom to windward without rigging a thing, anytime, by pushing a button. No, it's not a word thing. Yes, somebody does need to think harder.

 

You guys are taking this quite personally. Where did I say that traveler doesn't work? Where did I say it was "wrong"? I said that it wasn't the only thing that works. Go back and read the posts. If you open your eyes, look around, and think about it you will eventually agree. Limiting your thinking to what others have repetitiously done puts you in a pretty tight box.

 

Many of the posters, like Sailbydate, seem to be comparing in their minds a boat with a traveler to the same boat with no traveler. Yeah you may give up some control there. In that context what he said may be true. But that is not what I am talking about (or kdh, I think), rather I am talking about re-rigging the boat with a different system.

 

With a vang and a cross haul, I can position the clew anywhere you can with a sheet and a traveler (quite a few places you can't, too) and do it as quickly if that is the design goal. That doesn't mean a traveler is "wrong" - just not uniquely right.

 

Now about gravy.....

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