Bob Perry

My newest project

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Fair enough. Maybe just the length of the berth ? I can't get my head around the proportions when looking at the latest published plan knowing that the aperture is 42". But it is no big deal.

 

I have drawn lay-outs myself since childhood. 7 years ago I designed the layout for my own 33-footer. It has a very unusual layout forward of the bulkhead forward of the mast in that is has two bunks - one each side of the (low priority) toilet compartment. So I have two bunks quite similar to yours - albeit in front of the mast. The aperture I have to live with is around 34" and it is a squeeze getting in there. Luckily I have stainless handholds/tubes running the length of the boat (carrying lines from the cockpit to the anchor well) so by using those it is easier to swing yourself in there. They are not really sea berths like yours because of the position but I easily fit in there and they are good for light weather running :-)

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Is the production going to just run concurrent or will there be some time sorting out hull #1 before the other three are started?

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Silver:

Interestingly, the bhds at the forward end of the Q berths were built wrong and they extend all the way up to the overhead. I drew them cut down to counter height. But we stood there and looked at them and it occurred to both Neil and myself that it might work better that way and provide some privacy for the q berth area.. Client showed up and he did not like the idea at all. He wanted them cut down as drawn by me. But after an hour he became more convinced that leaving them full height was the best. We can always cut them down. But, we can't cut them back up easily. I think it's a great change and all credit goes to Neil for this one. I think it will provide a real, purpose driven, salty feel to the layout.

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It is interesting. I hadn't read the drawing properly. In my mind they were always like they are now. I think this will be excellent for the feel of the interior. And they will be great in rough weather. The only thing I am wondering is if something could be done to make them easier to get in and out of. But the bulkheads have nothing to do with that.

 

 

The (Hinterhoeller) Niagara 35 and the C&C Landfall 38 both had a quarter berth layouts something like this I think.

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Silver:

The quarter berths are 6'10 3/4" long. I like long berths. Keep in mind Silver that the opening to the Q berth is also 34" high.

 

Hobs:

The scheduling is something I really seldom ask about. My focus is getting Hull No. 1 finished. Given that the scaffodling is now up on the plug I suspect laminating of hull No. 2 will begin any day. Could be tomorrow. Yes, there are some elements that are being worked out on No. 1.

Come on by. I'll give you the $2 tour.

 

Just talked to Betts. Lamination of hull No. 2 will start early next week.

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Ahh - Thanks. That makes more sense. I guess the height of the berth and the height above it helps with getting in there.

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That is fun to see. It wasn't immediately obvious to me what was causing the roll.

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Boy, that guy can sure tie a bowline in a flash. B) Thanks for posting this Bob.

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Here is a video of he roll over:

 

The shop made it look easy - a sure sign of competence.

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Why did they keep it on its side so long? Checking something obviously, but what?

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Why did they keep it on its side so long? Checking something obviously, but what?

 

When my doctor makes me do this, it's called a "prostate exam".

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My guess is that they wanted to make sure the slings were honky dory and secure the slings so that they wouldn't slip.

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That's a really instructive video -- thanks for posting that!

 

And here I was expecting "Ride of the Valkyries", "Fanfare for the Common Man" or "Chipmunk's Christmas" as sound track. . .

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Nicely nicely Cap'n Bob.

Unique.

Is there any way you would have agreed to draw a full length keel with attached rudder? Are the arguments that oldsters use about directional stability with such arrangrments just post facto justification of old technology?

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Bob, what is the thinking behind that "doubler" at the top of the rudder? I'm curious about its positioning, why it didn't extend past the second gudgeon and so forth.

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Jon:

Go look at some old outboard rudders. Those are called "rudder cheeks" and originally they were used to strengthen the top of the rudder. I put them on this rudder to give me additional thickness where the tiller mates with the rudder blade.

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"Is there any way you would have agreed to draw a full length keel with attached rudder? Are the arguments that oldsters use about directional stability with such arrangrments just post facto justification of old technology? "

 

Ed:

It just would n ot have worked to give me what I was after. So no, I would not want a big, heavy 43' tiller steered boat with an unbalanced rudder. No way. No how. I hate clunky apertures in rudders for the prop also. I think time will show that there is wisdom in my approach. The benefits are many. I have beautiful, NACA foil conforming, highly balanced, clean rudder blade. Directional stability does not come from hanging a rudder off the back end of a clunky keel. You want directional stability? Come sail Frankie.

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So robust and so refined. Obviously, great feel at the tiller and big performance gains to weather will result from steering with lift rather than steering with lots of drag as would have been the case with a traditional full keel.

 

Maneuvering in the marina looks like it will be pretty much like a fin keel and spade rudder boatcool trick. I personally hope no bow thruster will be installed! This boat doesn't "need" one even if the owner wants the added maneuverability. (Which would be understandable in an ultimate cruising yacht.)

 

I'm thankful to be watching such a great design and build unfold!

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Very cool. Thanks for sharing.

 

Looks like those Betts guys could stand to cut down on the caffeine.

 

I just got home from work (ie have the bandwidth) to watch the video, I dunno about the caffeine thing, paying folk by the hour, Isn't this what you expect?

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So robust and so refined. Obviously, great feel at the tiller and big performance gains to weather will result from steering with lift rather than steering with lots of drag as would have been the case with a traditional full keel.

 

Maneuvering in the marina looks like it will be pretty much like a fin keel and spade rudder boatcool trick. I personally hope no bow thruster will be installed! This boat doesn't "need" one even if the owner wants the added maneuverability. (Which would be understandable in an ultimate cruising yacht.)

 

I'm thankful to be watching such a great design and build unfold!

+1!

So robust and so refined. Obviously, great feel at the tiller and big performance gains to weather will result from steering with lift rather than steering with lots of drag as would have been the case with a traditional full keel.

 

Maneuvering in the marina looks like it will be pretty much like a fin keel and spade rudder boatcool trick. I personally hope no bow thruster will be installed! This boat doesn't "need" one even if the owner wants the added maneuverability. (Which would be understandable in an ultimate cruising yacht.)

 

I'm thankful to be watching such a great design and build unfold!

+1!

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Almost time again for another visit to the yard?

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Gray:

I was there all morning meeting with the North sails guy Jack Christianson. Everything is coming along swimmingly. Jim and Neil have come up with a beautiful chainplate detail. I hope I get credit for it.'

"Why yes,,,as a matter of fact I always do my CF chainplates like that madam."

" Oh Bob,,,you sure know how to align a vector."

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"I bet I could help you align yours" she said with a slight hitch in her voice. I pushed the ducks off my drafting table rudely to make a little space as she began undoing the buttons . . . . .

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"I bet I could help you align yours" she said with a slight hitch in her voice. I pushed the ducks off my drafting table rudely to make a little space as she began undoing the buttons . . . . .

"Hey big guy, is that a drafting pencil in your pocket or are you happy to see me?"

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Alpha:

I was at the yard on Wednesday but there was not much happening that made a good photo. Scaffolding was in the way. I'm going back on Tuesday to wish everyone at the yard Merry Christmas. I'll wear my Santa suit. I'll see if I can get more photos at that time. Most of Wednesday was spent listening to the North Sails presentation. I did not doze off. Almost though.

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Alpha:

I was at the yard on Wednesday but there was not much happening that made a good photo. Scaffolding was in the way. I'm going back on Tuesday to wish everyone at the yard Merry Christmas. I'll wear my Santa suit. I'll see if I can get more photos at that time. Most of Wednesday was spent listening to the North Sails presentation. I did not doze off. Almost though.

Have a great time at the yard Bob...!

 

We all would love to have some new pics in our "stockings"...!

 

fs

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Fall:

I'm headed up there in a few minutes. I'll try my best to get some interesting photos. I'm just going up to hang out. Sort of Bob's Christmas present to Bob.

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Question, Bob. What are they gon to do to the inside before paint? Filler, or what? How much sanding is expected?

 

Just interested.

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Ed:

Do you mean the hull? It came off a male plug. It's as smooth as a baby's bottom. Bulkheads and joinery panels will be veneered in yellow cedar paneling.

No filler. Seven pieces of sanding. Maybe eight.

 

Just got back from the yard. Nothing much to photograph just lots of work on bits and pieces. I did take some shots and I'll post them later.

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Mr. Perry

This has been really great to follow. First mouse click every day. Any scraps you could throw our way? A photo or two, a tidbit of a progress report? I know it's the holiday season... but were dyin' out here! Thanks, and Happy New Year!

 

Rob W.

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Mr. Perry

This has been really great to follow. First mouse click every day. Any scraps you could throw our way? A photo or two, a tidbit of a progress report? I know it's the holiday season... but were dyin' out here! Thanks, and Happy New Year!

 

Rob W.

 

 

+1

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I was at the yard yesterday. Fact is that nothing is happening there that makes for great photos right now, They are working on bits and pieces for the cabin sole and chainplates. Anthony is working on beds for the big alternator. They are getting the bobstay tang ready for hull No. 2, it will be different from the tang on No.1. Maybe I'm getting blah zay about the process. I don't think that is the case. I'll put some pics up later today.

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Ed:

Nothing spectacular but the V-1 will go to a CF chainplate with the pin running parallel to centerline while the D-1's will go to a chainplate with the pin running perpendicular to the centerline. This makes for better alignment of the D-1. It';s sort of a CF T shape. I'll post photos when they are done. Now they are machining the bushings for the pins. I'll get some pics up now.

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This is a welded steel mold for one of the ballast slugs.

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This is a form or mold for the toe space that will run around the base of the cabinetry.

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This is a CF cockpit hatch lid.

xx%203_zpscvxaf1ri.jpg

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How you gonna pop the CF slugs out of the steel mold?

 

;o)

 

I actually find these photos of the bits and bobs every bit as interesting as the hull photos.

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Streamer:

Ok, if you ,like them I'll post the ones I took yesterday.

 

No, the lead ballast slugs will come out of those steel molds. Each mold was CNC cut to form fit each of the four ballast slugs.

My 2D acad files go to Neil who changes them into 3D files then the files go to Steve who prepares them for the CNC machine. It's a whole style of "boatbuilding" that did not exist a few years back. Each section of removable cabin sole gets this treatment. You simply almost never if ever see anyone crawling around the interior of hull No. 1 with a measuring tape.

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Here are some more super exciting photos from the yard yesterday.

 

Here is Andrew, all masked up and grinding on the edge of a piece of cabin sole.

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Here is Anthony, the machinist and mechanical; guy holding a CNC cut mounting bed for the big alternator. There are two of these.

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These are panels of cabin some being laminated in e glass on the heated table.

sh%203_zpsmrne42er.jpg

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I was at the yard yesterday. Fact is that nothing is happening there that makes for great photos right now, They are working on bits and pieces for the cabin sole and chainplates. Anthony is working on beds for the big alternator. They are getting the bobstay tang ready for hull No. 2, it will be different from the tang on No.1. Maybe I'm getting blah zay about the process. I don't think that is the case. I'll put some pics up later today.

Hi Bob,

 

I was under the impression that all the boats were to be identical. From this post it sounds like there will be some variances.

 

Not that it is any sort of problem mind you. :-)

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Windward:

I would not handicap the project by demanding all four boats were identical. Evoluition is natural and welcomed.

 

All four boats will be built from the same design and specs. But it is inevitable that improvements in the sequencing and details of construction will present themselves as we go along. I imagine that you will see some evolution of details and specs in all four boats.

 

For instance, we will not order four sets of sails to be built at once. We will build one set of sails, sail the boat and then evaluate to see if any changes should be made.

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Mr. Perry

This has been really great to follow. First mouse click every day. Any scraps you could throw our way? A photo or two, a tidbit of a progress report? I know it's the holiday season... but were dyin' out here! Thanks, and Happy New Year!

 

Rob W.

 

 

+1

 

2

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I too find the photos, of bits and pieces, really interesting.

The amount of time and thought, that goes into a custom boat, is just incredible.

 

Thanks Bob, and keep 'em coming.

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Awesome Bob!

 

Love the little bits! Very interesting!

 

Happy New Year!

 

fs

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Well OK then. I promise more tiddly bits in the weeks to come.

 

For being such an all round good guy this last year I am giving myself a reward tomorrow. I'm going back to the boat yard. It's kinda my church.

 

I need a small statue of Neptune I can put on a shelf. I could put bowls of fruit around the statue and have some stinky burning incense going just like the boat yards in Taiwan.

"That is the god No Wang, the god of the band saw."

 

All the yards had them.

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A plastic Neptune, "riding on the dashboard of your car."

 

Then we don't "care if it snows or freezes, long as we get"...our pictorial fixes.

 

Didn't it go something like that?

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The God of a saw was named "No Wang" :o

 

I can't get my knees apart after reading that.

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I made a sacrifice to the god 'No Wang' once. Ran a finger up into the bandsaw blade about half way to the cuticle. He must have smiled and approved my blood sacrifice as I never had an incidence since.

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Well OK then. I promise more tiddly bits in the weeks to come.

 

For being such an all round good guy this last year I am giving myself a reward tomorrow. I'm going back to the boat yard. It's kinda my church.

 

I need a small statue of Neptune I can put on a shelf. I could put bowls of fruit around the statue and have some stinky burning incense going just like the boat yards in Taiwan.

"That is the god No Wang, the god of the band saw."

 

All the yards had them.

But remember - no bananas. Happy New Year to you, Bob.

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Well OK then. I promise more tiddly bits in the weeks to come.

 

For being such an all round good guy this last year I am giving myself a reward tomorrow. I'm going back to the boat yard. It's kinda my church.

 

I need a small statue of Neptune I can put on a shelf. I could put bowls of fruit around the statue and have some stinky burning incense going just like the boat yards in Taiwan.

"That is the god No Wang, the god of the band saw."

 

All the yards had them.

But remember - no bananas. Happy New Year to you, Bob.

 

 

That's not very sporting. She looks like a nice person.

 

Anna%20Bananna%20for%20MR%201.jpg

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I made a sacrifice to the god 'No Wang' once. Ran a finger up into the bandsaw blade about half way to the cuticle. He must have smiled and approved my blood sacrifice as I never had an incidence since.

Hmmm, maybe I have been doing it all wrong. I thought I was sacrificing parts to the God of inappropriate-tools-for-the-task, through the church of angle grinder. Should I have been trimming my nails with a table saw instead?

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I made a sacrifice to the god 'No Wang' once. Ran a finger up into the bandsaw blade about half way to the cuticle. He must have smiled and approved my blood sacrifice as I never had an incidence since.

Hmmm, maybe I have been doing it all wrong. I thought I was sacrificing parts to the God of inappropriate-tools-for-the-task, through the church of angle grinder. Should I have been trimming my nails with a table saw instead?

 

 

Child's play. Trim your nails with a roundover bit in a router, handheld.

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Joli:

The big alternator is immediately forward of the engine and coupled to the PTO on the engine with a short shaft and clutch. It is close to the bhd but not attached.

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Got it, thanks Bob. I was trying to understand how an alternator would work if attached to the bulkhead but driven by a moving engine.

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Add my name to those fascinated by the little bits as well as the big parts. I've never built a boat, but I work with the little bits regularly. Happy New Year Bob and all.

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That respirator set up is pretty trick-- any body know the brand?

Its a 3m Adflo that I mounted on a nice backpack. Also swapped out the stock faceshield for a UVEX Bionic faceshield.

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Nice to have Andrew chiming in on his work on the project. Here is Andrew demonstrating for me his unique use of block plane along with grinder. It's a seldom used technique.

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It was a very quiet day at the yard. About a third of the workers were there. Here is Rick welding up the scaffolding assembly that will span hull No 1 to allow easy access and egress to the interior.

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Here is another traveler base being laminated.

an%203_zpsh40y2nxi.jpg

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The pics you are posting look like there is as much material going into moulds, jigs, fixtures and so forth as is going into the boat itself.

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The pics you are posting look like there is as much material going into moulds, jigs, fixtures and so forth as is going into the boat itself.

Probably more.

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Jon:

It was evident to me from the start just how much materials used would never end up on a boat. It was one of my first "lessons".

Razzy could be right if you count plugs,molds, "support structures" and just general wastage. Acres of plastic have been used just in the vacuum bagging process.

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Blitz:

I have never asked that question. I will. I have a recollection of the client once saying he wanted no involvement past the first four boats. We'll see. I can't see a production run of these cutters. It's not exactly a Beneteau.

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Jon:

It was evident to me from the start just how much materials used would never end up on a boat. It was one of my first "lessons".

Razzy could be right if you count plugs,molds, "support structures" and just general wastage. Acres of plastic have been used just in the vacuum bagging process.

A necessary evil in composite boat building, at least you'll get 4 boats from the moulds and jigs etc.

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Phew,

I read through the whole thread before opening my big mouth, then decided that it would be better to read through it again taking notes. So I did.


First of all, I would like to express my appreciation to Bob P, Raspers, WHL, Betts Boats (ALL of you), Jim and Neil for an open and honest insight into the world of state-of-the-art yacht builds. The boat is gorgeous beyond words.


I was unaware of this paradigm shift in monohull sailboat construction until now. All of the forces that were transferred to the hull using metal fasteners (wooden boat technology), are now transmitted to incorporated structures in a monocoque hull laminate. No more leaky-pulled chainplates, no more loose-broken keel bolts, no more rust! These are not small details.


My 2 cents ...


Interior layout

Spot on offshore layout (rev.O #3273), couldn't be better. Sleeps 4 people securely in a seaway and 8 people out of the rain on a hard party weekend. Raspers 3D rendering (#2421-2 +others) really makes it feel like I've visited the boat instead of just squinting over the design.


Sail plan

I noticed you're not finding peace with the placement of the radar at the first spreader (rev.J #3291)(rev.M #3493). Let me tell you a boxer's story about a new jib and a mast-mounted radar. Every time the boat tacks the radar gives a jab to the jib. After a year, the owner brings me the jib to put a patch on the uv-strip. A year later, the owner brings me the jib to put a patch on the patch. In the third year, the radar punches a hole through the sailcloth. But low and behold, the leech cord, which is made of kevlar, puts the radar in a headlock and the owner, with the aid of an electric winch, grinds the radar right off the mast. Jib wins by knockout. Although I know you don't like it (damn - can't find #post), get the radar off the mast and onto a pole mount in the stern, the backstay or some trick hydraulic thingy. Keep the front of the mast clean as a whistle with the foredeck lights under the spreaders. And while we're protecting things, no press rings or D-T-rings in the clews of any jibs, just webbing. This summer, I saw a 20 meter carbon mast that had been battered with both fists by a T-ring clewed self-tacking jib; then 'protected' by a polished stainless steel cover attached with aluminum rivets: the horror...


Three foresails should be sufficient. I really like the designed lower aspect staysail on hanks (rev.M #3493). I would suggest a roller furling low-clewed masthead genoa with a good amount of leech hollow designed to pass by the shrouds just lower than the upper spreader. Why low-clewed? Because for the same area, it heels the boat less and interferes less with the mainsail. Leech hollow is good because the sail flattens as you pull in the sheet and less leech-cord tension is needed to stop flapping. As you often want as much area as you can get, the lightwind/downwind sail is a free-flying Code 0 on a furler as big as will fit from the exit at the octagonal end of the bowsprit to the transom (backstay laminate?).


Given the luff length, I like the designed mainsail with reefs placed slightly lower than the 5 full-length battens, taking into account the car heights, as successive reefs are pulled in. An external track, with 1 intermediate car between battens is good. I've seen the double mast-gate-switch track (#2489) on a swan 90; makes sense there because the cars are big (read tall) and the're lots of them; not so convinced here. Park Avenue style boom with an open top (#2489) is nice as it practically folds the mainsail as you lower it.


Deck layout

In post #2563 you mention 4 electric winches; big drain. I am in favor of at least one electric winch usable by the mainsail halyard and a spinnaker halyard, not so much to hoist the sails as for mast work, hoisting the tender on deck or MOB. After all, trimming the sails is (a big) part of the fun. Is the cap rail strong enough to take the sheet loads of the jibs? If so, you could get rid of the genoa track altogether (no tracks, no holes no fasteners).


Questions

1) I am really curious, how are you going to construct the forestay-tang-laminate-gizmo to the hull and (through?) the bowsprit?


2) In the Adventure 40 thread, you posted (#35): "My inclination for an offshore cruising boat is to make the keel long enough in chord to allow the boat to be hauled and rest on the keel. ... You can never count on up to date haulout facilities in remote areas." In this Bulletproof 43 thread you mentioned (#2875) a hypothetical 43 footer at 26000 lbs instead of 36000 lbs. Using the keel shell construction, CF over e-glass, described from post #1282 on, how long would the keel chord have to be for our 26000 lbs. to rest on the keel? Really what I'm asking is: can this keel shell constuction be done for a fin keel?



And finally, given the constant theme of music throughout this thread, I would propose the names for this quartet: Violin, Viola, Cello, Piano.


Happy New Year,

mark

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Interesting comments. Are you really suggesting someone call a half-million dollar yacht 'Piano"?

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Interesting comments. Are you really suggesting someone call a half-million dollar yacht 'Piano"?

 

It's better than "Saxophone" or "Bagpipes" or "Banjo".

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Interesting comments. Are you really suggesting someone call a half-million dollar yacht 'Piano"?

Well you could always call it " Bruce ".

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Regarding tooling costs. Sometimes in low volume composite construction the builder and the owner split the tooling costs with the owner recovering his contribution from the money from follow on boats.

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I won't comment on the rest of the review, but for this: "you mention 4 electric winches; big drain". A hundred electric winches would not be a big drain. Yes they draw a lot of amps when loaded. But for a miniscule amount of time. A really anal trimmer might run 10 AH off the batteries in 24 hours using the winches in shifty conditions. The chart plotter draws a lot more. Having one winch to do four jobs does not save power over one winch for each job - the amount of work is the same. If battery drain is your main concern, there are probably 10 things on these boats of higher priority than the electric winches.

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Interesting comments. Are you really suggesting someone call a half-million dollar yacht 'Piano"?

 

It's better than "Saxophone" or "Bagpipes" or "Banjo".

 

Funnily enough, I quite like, 'Banjo' as a yacht name. Maybe a cat boat?

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MarK:

Forestay tang goes through the bowsprit and is bonded onto the false stem similar to the way the bobstay tang is attached.

 

Radar goes on lower spreader.

 

Sailbye:

"half million dollar yacht"? You need to double that.

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"half million dollar yacht"? You need to double that.

 

It's not exactly a Beneteau.

At just $.5mm, I'd finance twenty of them and make my nut selling nineteen of them.

 

Hey! Boatbuilding for fun AND profit!! Why hasn't anybody thought of this sooner?

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Any discussion of marketing a sailboat ends up as idle speculation, but there still seems to be room for good full keel boats. Westrerlys Babas etc still have a pretty strong following. Think of this design competing with Island Packet. Better looking, better sailing, probably better everything. I have no idea what the premium would be over the IP, but they are pushing .5 mil for a base price now.

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Regarding tooling costs. Sometimes in low volume composite construction the builder and the owner split the tooling costs with the owner recovering his contribution from the money from follow on boats.

I was thinking through the few times I've made composite panels.

 

I had a piece of melamine for the table.

Bag tape

Wax for the table

Fabric,core,fabric

Epoxy

Peel ply

Breather fabric

Breather tube

Hose to waste pot

Waste pot

Mixing cups and tools

 

When I did the infusion thing it used about twice the amount of epoxy as you have some in the supply pot and all the tubes.

 

Certainly the volume of the waste was more than the finished part, if I included the melamine table then the weight was higher as well.

 

Of course, bigger laminations have less waste % than smaller.

 

However, if you include time in the waste calculation, the ready to go part at the end of the mold process requires much less time, and less waste in fairing compounds and sanding materials.

 

Oh, and it's a lot cleaner too....

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Any discussion of marketing a sailboat ends up as idle speculation, but there still seems to be room for good full keel boats. Westrerlys Babas etc still have a pretty strong following. Think of this design competing with Island Packet. Better looking, better sailing, probably better everything. I have no idea what the premium would be over the IP, but they are pushing .5 mil for a base price now.

 

It's hard to think of the CF cutters and Island Packets in the same week. It takes time to adjust the frame of reference.