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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Bob Perry

My newest project

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Bowsprit will be carbon. But we are getting there.

That end fitting makes it look a cavalry lance rather than a bowsprit. Is it for skewering whales, customs officers, or dinghy sailors?

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Can't see a way to do a gammon iron Rasper. Maybe you can.

 

Cranse iron will be carbon fiber and just "grow" out of the CF sprit. Bobstay fitting will be CF. Why punch holes in the hull when we don't have to?

render%202_zpsrbnetxi6.jpg

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Ish:

Yeah, I think we will go with that detail.

But I need some hep from the WLYDO. I need to find a full range of bronze hatches. Client wants bronze (brass) hatches. I found one killer hatch but it only comes in one size.

 

I'm putting you in charge of this Ish. You either come through or your back to "coffee boy".

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Ish:

Yeah, I think we will go with that detail.

But I need some hep from the WLYDO. I need to find a full range of bronze hatches. Client wants bronze (brass) hatches. I found one killer hatch but it only comes in one size.

 

I'm putting you in charge of this Ish. You either come through or your back to "coffee boy".

 

I'm screwed. This is a serious demotion for a tea drinker.

 

Edit: You can ponder this while I'm wearing out metaphorical shoe leather.

 

hawkesbury%2Bjunction%2B013.JPG

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This project is so cool. And it will meet my definition of success as this will be a yacht that when you leave her to go home you will turn around a couple of times to gaze upon her every time.

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Thanks Wash. It appears that you get it.

 

Ish, come on.....I found that one...now get to fucking work and find me some hatches. You know, you look really silly in that tea boy hat.

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Can't see a way to do a gammon iron Rasper. Maybe you can.

 

Cranse iron will be carbon fiber and just "grow" out of the CF sprit. Bobstay fitting will be CF. Why punch holes in the hull when we don't have to?

render%202_zpsrbnetxi6.jpg

 

I knew you were good Mr. P, but I didn't know you could make boats that fly.

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Thanks Wash. It appears that you get it.

 

Ish, come on.....I found that one...now get to fucking work and find me some hatches. You know, you look really silly in that tea boy hat.

 

Bob, you may have to sit back and relax, he is still some way off from the runway.

 

gallery_13136_823_13228.jpg

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1)

Either you make the camber on the front trunk a natural continuation of the top surface of the superstructure aft of the mast, or

2)

you make it planar as it is, essentially cutting off what is above the side surfaces of suggestion 1). The rounds going from side to top can be smaller in radius in this case.

 

The only reason I can see for making it planar is consideration for some kind of special hatch.

 

My 2 cents....

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Thanks Surfer.

 

I decided a couple of weeks ago to treat both "boxes" independently rather than have them continuous faired shaped simply broken by the gap. That would have been the knee jerk approach. But I like to avoid the knee jerk solution when I can. I like to challenge the eye. Some of the old boats had zero camber to the forward trunk. That opens up some cool variations of how to treat the top with that quasi, asymmetrical butterfly hatch look that you see on many Scandinavian boats. I love that look. But my current inclination is to treat both boxes individually and have less rake to the side of the forward box and perhaps more camber. I don;t know. I need Rasper to show me some samples. He's great at that. Just not sure what I want there yet. But not what I see now.

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Just spent an hour with screen share with Rasper. We are re-working both cabin trunks. So far we like it. Always find some room for refinement. We'll get there. We have a great start.

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Well, I'm coming up empty on bronze hatches. There are lots of options for powdercoated aluminum in whatever colour, or gold anodized aluminum, but bronze seems to have gone out of style.

 

What would you like in your coffee, Bob?

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You could also choose to make the forward trunk one big butterfly hatch with higher sides, instead of having a "wedding cake" of a trunk plus butterfly hatch. Maybe that would contribute to the traditional look and it would definitely not look "bolted on". From the inside you would have all the properties of the original design, from the outside it might allow you more freedom in shaping the aft trunk.

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Ish, where did you find that? I need that shape to replace one on my boat. Why the original owner installed a trapezoid shaped hatch in the first place is a mystery.

Hold the presses.

 

1744399.JPG

 

Unfortunately, only trapezoidal.

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Ish, where did you find that? I need that shape to replace one on my boat. Why the original owner installed a trapezoid shaped hatch in the first place is a mystery.

Hold the presses.

 

1744399.JPG

 

Unfortunately, only trapezoidal.

 

 

These are from a company called Toplicht. http://www.toplicht.de/en/shop/fenster-bullauge-luke-und-luefter/decksluke-und-scharnier/decksluken

I also found trapezoidal hatches built to spec at Houdini. http://www.houdini-marine.co.uk/Houdini_hatches.html

 

Houdini makes "bespoke" hatches, which I guess lets them charge more. They will make hatches to any shape and size and will paint or anodize to spec.

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I found Toplight already. They make a fabulous looking square hatch and that trap shaped one. But the square shaped hatch is only 18" square. Too small.

 

Lots of cream Ish and a smidge of sugar.

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Ish, where did you find that? I need that shape to replace one on my boat. Why the original owner installed a trapezoid shaped hatch in the first place is a mystery.

Hold the presses.

 

1744399.JPG

 

Unfortunately, only trapezoidal.

 

 

These are from a company called Toplicht. http://www.toplicht.de/en/shop/fenster-bullauge-luke-und-luefter/decksluke-und-scharnier/decksluken

I also found trapezoidal hatches built to spec at Houdini. http://www.houdini-marine.co.uk/Houdini_hatches.html

 

Houdini makes "bespoke" hatches, which I guess lets them charge more. They will make hatches to any shape and size and will paint or anodize to spec.

 

 

You can also get trapezoidal hatches from Bomar, which are a lot more accessible and undoubtedly cheaper.

 

http://www.pompanette.com/pomp.nsf/0/74CA0E6D73F4C0248525782E0049EE3F?Open

 

Edit: also from Lewmar, but apparently only in one size.

 

http://www.lewmar.com/products.asp?id=8800&lid=27202

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Thanks for checking Victor.

You'd think with all the retro looking boats being built in Europe there would be some bronze hatches available.

I think we'll go with Hood hatches or Bomars in stainless.

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Thanks for checking Victor.

You'd think with all the retro looking boats being built in Europe there would be some bronze hatches available.

I think we'll go with Hood hatches or Bomars in stainless.

 

Have you considered having them cast locally using an existing cast aluminum hatch as a plug? There are lots of foundries around this part of the world.

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Well, I'm coming up empty on bronze hatches. There are lots of options for powdercoated aluminum in whatever colour, or gold anodized aluminum, but bronze seems to have gone out of style.

 

What would you like in your coffee, Bob?

 

I, myself, personally have never seen a bronze framed hatch. Those ones pictured here are brass - Svend Madsen used to sell them here in the 70's and I used to make special trips to his store just to ogle them. ^_^

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Perhaps a call to these people and if they have some used...I have never been there but I understand they deal in used and salvaged parts.

 

I'm sure there are some skilled people out there would could do a professional restoration if they have a solid (but tired) hatch to start with.

 

http://www.baconsails.biz/

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Vic:

No that had not crossed my mind. It sounds very expensive. Buy some "throw away" hatches to use as tools?

Let me think on that for a while.

 

Depends on how many different sizes you need. One hatch per size should be enough to make a lost-wax mold, and they could be refit and sold afterwards. I dimly remember Maxwell made bronze hatches at one point. I used to have a pair of their bronze winches and they were beautious.

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kdh:

Twin, counter rotating sail drives.

Now the big question is how do they counter rotate Or, which rotation goes on which side? Does it matter? Maybe Jose knows.

Calling Jose!

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Right, I forgot there were two engines. I've been away skiing with Adele in Maine.

 

So awesome to see her. We get off the lift. Someone says, "where should we go?" I say, "Down." Adele takes off with four of her classmates. She's always first. I'm always last.

 

Interesting to think about a full keel with saildrives.

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"She's always first. I'm always last."

 

kdh: Isn't that the way you want it? I bet you are grinning from ear to ear seeing her beat you.

I couldn't keep up with Max when he was 6 years old. Kids have that advantage called "no fear".

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kdh:

Twin, counter rotating sail drives.

Now the big question is how do they counter rotate Or, which rotation goes on which side? Does it matter? Maybe Jose knows.

Calling Jose!

 

 

It doesn't matter about the rotation, and they don't have to counter rotate as long as they are not run at the same time and only exist to be redundant.

 

If each engine has the HP required to drive the vessel as required, they shouldn't never have to be run together...if they are under powered HP they then have to be used in tandem, then they are not redundant.

 

I suggest that the engine choice be made as if only one engine exists, then duplicate that.

 

My head hurts now.

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Bob, with that forward doghouse.

 

Would there be enough room under a quarter circle foc'sle hatch or a sloping hatch, like you see on old fishing boats?

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Olaf:

I call those "scuttle" hatches and I don't think this boat is quite the type or quite big enough to carry that off. I love that detail. Perfect on a fishing boat.

We did do a quasi scuttle on CATARI for the center cockpit companionway. Big on the "quasi".

 

Jody and I put our heads together this morning and decided what we had for both cabin trunks was not good enough. I have rules of thumb for those features and by thumb was broken. The beauty of working with Rasper is that when I know it's not good, he knows it;'s not good at the same moment. The reality is he probably knows before I do but he humors me so I think I'm the boss. Either way we discuss it man to man, no feelings to get hurt and we fix it. It may take several steps to fix it and it did this morning take two steps but in the end we get what we want. At that point in time.

 

Tomorrow? Who the fuck knows. Some times you need a night's sleep on these details.

andy%202007_zpsgs8fqdzp.jpg

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While you're sleeping, it occurred to me that there's no point reinventing the wheel. Hatch manufacturers already have the expertise and the molds. Why not ask someone like Atkins and Hoyle to cast a few in bronze?

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Try Pete Langlie at port Townsend foundry. I talked with him at the boat show and hi mentioned 6000 different molds.

 

I know people with that many in their bathroom alone.

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Great ideas.

Victor: that's why you make the big bucks! I'll give Atkins and Hoyle a call. Maybe Columbian Bronze too. If that's their name.

 

I'm not sleeping. Just sleepy.

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Bob,

You might be able to find a paint that looks like bronze. That way you can have a nice lightweight aluminum hatch that looks like bronze. I sent an email to a guy that does a lot of custom paintwork, I'll let you know if he has any recommendations.

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You could just vinyl wrap anything you want to look like bronze. But both approaches would weather differently from bronze. Most of the classics just get a good bronze guy on at the build staff early on, and keep them busy. The best thing of this approach: It is all made of exactly the same material, so it all goes verdigris green at the same rate. Life is too short to polish all of it, so often highlight features are polished, like the winch tops etc, the rest goes green, with nice patina like rope polish patterns on the cleats etc. Go bronze, all the way, will go well on this boat. Even winches. So tactile, if weight is not a primary concern.

 

Lovely looking boat, BTW, can't wait to see the next coachroof/forehatch refinement.

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kdh:

Twin, counter rotating sail drives.

Now the big question is how do they counter rotate Or, which rotation goes on which side? Does it matter? Maybe Jose knows.

Calling Jose!

Normally twin screw power boats have right hand rotation props (clockwise when viewed from astern looking forward) on the starboard side and left hand rotation props (ccw when viewd from astern looking forward) on the port side. It probably won't make much difference if that were reversed on this boat due to the keel being in the way but I don't know for sure. I wouldn't put same rotation props on both sides though because I would want similar handling characteristics port and starboard when maneuvering.

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Yup...good point, I hadn't consider the handling characteristics being mirrored. Small point, but big enough to be annoying.

 

You learn the darnedest things here.

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Good info Jose. I'll go with your advice for now. We have some time. Build will take a year.

 

Thanks Sam C. I'll check that link out.

If that hatch looks even sort of like the Toplicht hatch maybe we can use both. I'd love to find one as big as the Lewmar 60.

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You can have anything made from SS titanium dioxide plated to look like polished bronze. The coating is quite hard, will not tarnish ever, and is nearly indestructible. I think there is a lot of stuff on this boat you would want to look that way - stanchions, blocks, shackles, etc.

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You might also want to have a look at davey.co.uk for a variety of parts. They also have a special section in their pdf-catalogue where they advertise their custom-made parts

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You might also want to have a look at davey.co.uk for a variety of parts. They also have a special section in their pdf-catalogue where they advertise their custom-made parts

 

Yes, they do have some nice stuff. I ran across them in my searching. This link page was very helpful. http://www.boat-links.com/linklists/boatlink-21.html

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Davey Co has some very interesting stuff and now I know what "gunmetal" is. But they do not have hatches. If I can find some bronze hatches I'll go back to Davey Co. for some other parts.

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I probably a stupid question so if need be just pat me on my head and send me on my way...

 

The tiller looks fairly high to straddle, how does one operated the controls while moving about in a marina fairway? The advantage of twin screws for maneuvering in/out of the slip seems like more of a challenge without a third hand.

 

(*shoot*, I'll probably now get relegated to getting Ish's coffee)

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Hobot:

We are just at the end of the preliminary design stage. All in good time. Tiller details are not a priority at this point. All in good time.

If I can design the whole. sailing boat I think I can find a way to make it easy to handle under power. I already have a plan. We'll mock it up in six months and play with it. I'm pretty sure it will work.

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Vamp with me here: wouldn't it be cool to inter-connect the dual engine/transmission controls to a tiller 'quadrant' below the decks, with cables to the shift/throttle???

 

Suppose while motoring forward and while the tiller is fully nested (down), if the tiller is swung more than, say, 15° or so to either side that it administers differential throttle? Lift the tiller about a half-foot from rested position and the transmissions shift into neutral. Lift the tiller another half-foot and you've engaged reverse... with differential throttles still in effect beyond 15° swing.

 

Consider the tiller to be a pseudo-joystick (as if...). With the engine(s) off, no big deal— the rudder works as ever. Have a manual disconnect as with some autopilot drives so that the tiller/rudder is free of any drag from the engine/trans controls.

 

With engine(s) running, engage the connection so that the trans is essentially augmenting the natural steering inputs to the rudder but with asymmetrical thrust from the props.

 

Tiller inputs would remain normal and thrust vectors would remain normal. You could almost use an automotive foot pedal for the throttle(s) or a twist grip on the tiller as if it was an outboard engine control. Sure, there's some Rube Goldberg crap to imagineer, but what if?

 

 

What bow thruster???

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No tek.

I appreciate your rfee thinking and it sounds like fun. But my client AND there is a real client here, wants simplicity and redundancy.

If you were the client I'd suggest we charge off in pursuit of your ideas.

All it takes is money tek. All your dreams can also be true.

 

You know what they say , "Money talks and ,,,,,,,,,,"

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You can have anything made from SS titanium dioxide plated to look like polished bronze. The coating is quite hard, will not tarnish ever, and is nearly indestructible. I think there is a lot of stuff on this boat you would want to look that way - stanchions, blocks, shackles, etc.

I think you meant titanium nitride for that sweet bronzy look.

 

Titanium dioxide just looks like white paint, because it's the pigment in most white paint.

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Ratt

 

Do you have data to prove that it results in a white finish?? Cuz DDW's a "show me the data" kinda guy so not much chance he's wrong.

 

 

:blink:

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I think you meant titanium nitride for that sweet bronzy look.

 

 

 

Titanium dioxide just looks like white paint, because it's the pigment in most white paint.

 

 

Yeah, your right, its nitriding on SS. The dyed oxides only work when plating titanium. But you can put titanium dioxide on your nose.

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kdh:

Twin, counter rotating sail drives.

Now the big question is how do they counter rotate Or, which rotation goes on which side? Does it matter? Maybe Jose knows.

Calling Jose!

Normally twin screw power boats have right hand rotation props (clockwise when viewed from astern looking forward) on the starboard side and left hand rotation props (ccw when viewd from astern looking forward) on the port side. It probably won't make much difference if that were reversed on this boat due to the keel being in the way but I don't know for sure. I wouldn't put same rotation props on both sides though because I would want similar handling characteristics port and starboard when maneuvering.

 

.

 

Just to back up Jose on this, the reason for RH prop on Stbd side and LH prop on port side is to have prop walk assist in twisting the vessel. For example if you've got Port engine going forward and Stbd engine in reverse (to swing stern to port and bow to stbd) prop walk off both engine/props is to port, adding to the twisting effect.

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kdh:

Twin, counter rotating sail drives.

Now the big question is how do they counter rotate Or, which rotation goes on which side? Does it matter? Maybe Jose knows.

Calling Jose!

Normally twin screw power boats have right hand rotation props (clockwise when viewed from astern looking forward) on the starboard side and left hand rotation props (ccw when viewd from astern looking forward) on the port side. It probably won't make much difference if that were reversed on this boat due to the keel being in the way but I don't know for sure. I wouldn't put same rotation props on both sides though because I would want similar handling characteristics port and starboard when maneuvering.

 

.

 

Just to back up Jose on this, the reason for RH prop on Stbd side and LH prop on port side is to have prop walk assist in twisting the vessel. For example if you've got Port engine going forward and Stbd engine in reverse (to swing stern to port and bow to stbd) prop walk off both engine/props is to port, adding to the twisting effect.

 

Right. I just don't kinow if the prop walk will be very effective given the large lateral plane of the keel resisting movement. I think I would be counting on the differential thrust more than the prop walk in this case.

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Engine selection is coming down to finding a suitable model that does have counter rotating sail drives. We are looking at Beta, Nanni and the Yanmar 3JH SE.

The decision has been made to go all carbon including carbon sprit. Build over a male plug. Ballast is now internal lead. Meeting with builder client and Ballard Sails tomorrow to go over some things and get a sail quote started. Jim Antrim will do the engineering on the layup. I've worked with Jim before and I look forward to his help.

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kdh:

Twin, counter rotating sail drives.

Now the big question is how do they counter rotate Or, which rotation goes on which side? Does it matter? Maybe Jose knows.

Calling Jose!

Normally twin screw power boats have right hand rotation props (clockwise when viewed from astern looking forward) on the starboard side and left hand rotation props (ccw when viewd from astern looking forward) on the port side. It probably won't make much difference if that were reversed on this boat due to the keel being in the way but I don't know for sure. I wouldn't put same rotation props on both sides though because I would want similar handling characteristics port and starboard when maneuvering.

 

.

 

Just to back up Jose on this, the reason for RH prop on Stbd side and LH prop on port side is to have prop walk assist in twisting the vessel. For example if you've got Port engine going forward and Stbd engine in reverse (to swing stern to port and bow to stbd) prop walk off both engine/props is to port, adding to the twisting effect.

 

Right. I just don't kinow if the prop walk will be very effective given the large lateral plane of the keel resisting movement. I think I would be counting on the differential thrust more than the prop walk in this case.

 

Jose,

Concur completely. All the same, no reason (yet) to give up any help from prop walk, or take a loss due to it...

Crash

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Another stunning design, Bob. I think the best part will be the tradition of swimming through the hole between the keel and the rudder. I do like modern keels, but I grew up with full keels, and I am fond of (or perhaps just nostalgic for) the way they feel.

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Sam:

I'm with you there. Can't see that happening.

 

Rooser:

Thanks very much.

For some reason I have already bonded with this design. Not sure why. Maybe it goes way back to when I was a kid and saw JOLIE BRIS drawings for the first time.

I'm not sue how that keel will feel. I think it will work and I don;t know why it wouldn't But I have never done a keel like that before so I don't know what the feel will be like.

I'm working hard to give the boat a gentle feel. I don't want a brute.

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