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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Bob Perry

My newest project

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Very important detail for sea chests: access to interior volume to remove barnacles & other growth. Barnie's are filter feeders, they don't need sunlight, they'll happily grow anywhere there is a water flow.

If there is no physical access, provide for closing off hull inlet so acid can be used.

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Those young guys in Betts shop remind me in a way of all the young rockers back in the 60's - incredible gifts of talent and skill at such a young age.

Are they really so young? I think people seem younger as we age, most of the guys Bob has shown look to be mid-late 20s at least, which means 10 years experience or more. If those 10 years have been spent in a high quality shop like betts', surrounded by craftsman, then no surprise they are good.

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Longy:

Top of sea chest is designed to be removable. Even I drew it that way!

 

Ranto:

I think you are right. As I approach 70 anyone under 50 seems like a kid to me. I would say mid to late 20's would be the average age at the shop. That is if you factor me in.

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Juan does meticulous work with the CF chainplates.

 

Anthony and his "baby" the sea chest.

a%201_zpsptxhqlzy.jpg

 

Always liked the idea of sea chests and wonder why more builders don't use them.

 

 

 

Thanks for teaching me another thing today. I didn't know the alternate meaning of "Sea Chest"

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In infusion all the laminate and core are laid into the mold dry so there is no touching the wet resin. We use polyester and vinylester resins and styrene emissions are extremely low (about 95-96% less compared with open layup) with infusion as the vapor is not released from the resin except along the thin edge of the resin front as it moves through the part. One of the reasons we infuse is that it is much easier and cheaper for us to meet state mandated clean air requirements using it. The styrene smell in our shops went way way down after we started. I am not sure if the same holds true for vacuum bagging with epoxy as Betts does.

 

 

Ok, minor diversion - where does the styrene go? I was under the assumption that the styrene was not chemically part of the final laminate, so it needed to gas off during cure (and might even leave tiny passages in the laminate?)

 

Is that all bogus? Does it get "trapped" in the laminate?

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In infusion all the laminate and core are laid into the mold dry so there is no touching the wet resin. We use polyester and vinylester resins and styrene emissions are extremely low (about 95-96% less compared with open layup) with infusion as the vapor is not released from the resin except along the thin edge of the resin front as it moves through the part. One of the reasons we infuse is that it is much easier and cheaper for us to meet state mandated clean air requirements using it. The styrene smell in our shops went way way down after we started. I am not sure if the same holds true for vacuum bagging with epoxy as Betts does.

 

 

Ok, minor diversion - where does the styrene go? I was under the assumption that the styrene was not chemically part of the final laminate, so it needed to gas off during cure (and might even leave tiny passages in the laminate?)

 

Is that all bogus? Does it get "trapped" in the laminate?

 

It gets trapped in the laminate.

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In infusion all the laminate and core are laid into the mold dry so there is no touching the wet resin. We use polyester and vinylester resins and styrene emissions are extremely low (about 95-96% less compared with open layup) with infusion as the vapor is not released from the resin except along the thin edge of the resin front as it moves through the part. One of the reasons we infuse is that it is much easier and cheaper for us to meet state mandated clean air requirements using it. The styrene smell in our shops went way way down after we started. I am not sure if the same holds true for vacuum bagging with epoxy as Betts does.

 

 

Ok, minor diversion - where does the styrene go? I was under the assumption that the styrene was not chemically part of the final laminate, so it needed to gas off during cure (and might even leave tiny passages in the laminate?)

 

Is that all bogus? Does it get "trapped" in the laminate?

 

It gets trapped in the laminate.

 

thanks!

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In infusion all the laminate and core are laid into the mold dry so there is no touching the wet resin. We use polyester and vinylester resins and styrene emissions are extremely low (about 95-96% less compared with open layup) with infusion as the vapor is not released from the resin except along the thin edge of the resin front as it moves through the part. One of the reasons we infuse is that it is much easier and cheaper for us to meet state mandated clean air requirements using it. The styrene smell in our shops went way way down after we started. I am not sure if the same holds true for vacuum bagging with epoxy as Betts does.

 

 

Ok, minor diversion - where does the styrene go? I was under the assumption that the styrene was not chemically part of the final laminate, so it needed to gas off during cure (and might even leave tiny passages in the laminate?)

 

Is that all bogus? Does it get "trapped" in the laminate?

 

It gets trapped in the laminate.

 

thanks!

 

I should say about 95% is trapped in the laminate. About 5% escapes into the vacuum pot and then into the atmosphere when the pot is opened.

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The original SCRIMP setup that I cobbed together with Bill Seemann in New Orleans was pretty basic stuff and the vacuum pot that was to catch any overflow from the vac lines coming from the mold and getting into our vac pump was just a 5 gallon painters pressure pot. Had a paper mixing bucket to catch the overflow. We were using vinylester in our early attempts but were still surprised at the fumes coming out of our pump. Our shop was backed up against a ancient New Orleans coffee roasting place, Community Coffee I think it was. Bill had me run a hose from our vac pot out to their exhaust fans and the stink got lost in the wonderful aromas of roasting coffee and chicory. Bill had me try scrubbing through activated charcoal and even pumping the fumes through a homemade Rube Goldberg incinerator. Lucky we didn't blow ourselves up with that rig. We tried all sorts of crazy combinations of hardware and bleeders and peel ply layers. This was long before Bill applied for his patents on the process and it took a while until we were getting acceptable results. Just as soon as we did, he pulled the plug on the project and made me keep it all to the two of us as he knew it would be many years until he could start the clock running on his patents and hopefully make some money. He seemed pretty nervous that we had the success that we did at the time considering how primitive our setup was. After that he did his further research at Carderock or the Office of Naval Research where he had iron clad NDA's in place. He shipped me off to the Mexican Riviera hoping I would forget all about it. That pretty much worked as I was enraptured by the azure tropical waters of Isla Mujeres the Yucatan while on that project and soon bought my first trimaran and set sail for the Virgin Islands. About ten years later a mutual friend on Bill and I mentioned the news that Bill had sold the license to Tillotson-Pearson for the SCRIMP process.

 

About 8 years ago, a Horizon 130 that I had done a good bit of modeling on was one shot infused in China which was a record at the time for outside of the US. I forget how many barrels they mixed and infused on that one but it included all the floors and stringers below the lower deck and I think those were 'pre-forms'. I think Horizon actually paid for a SCRIMP license unlike many of the Chinese builders. There seem to be so many subtle flavors of infusion now and I'm sure Bills patent is long expired by now.

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Rasp,

I was playing then too with infusion in Europe, and yes, lots of VOC out of the pump, but later resins changed a lot.

I stopped using poly and went into epoxies, and went to the Virgins too.

So the news from Jose that most stays in the laminate is nice news.

 

And more change in the future..

http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/new-infusion-regime-for-superthick-laminates

 

Sea chest, its a big one, is there a reason for that. I am used to lower ones.

http://www.whiteakeryachtsales.com/BoatImages/L196-49-Defever-Cockpit-Motor-Yacht-Sea-Chest-for-Water-Intakes-55.jpg

 

,

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That is a nice solution!. If you don't take precautions, after bagging it will look like this:

 

11junchainplate.jpg

Is vacuum bagging really necessary for the chainplates? I think mine were hand-layered (glass fiber epoxy).

 

I'll take a crack at this one... (and the pro's will correct me if I'm wrong)

 

For composite structures, the strength comes from the fibers, and the resin is just there to hold it together (to oversimplify). For best strength and also strength to weight, there's an optimum ratio of fiber to resin, but in general, the less resin the better. It's also important that the whole layup be nice and tight, with no voids or spots that are resin-rich. That wrinkly picture above definitely has some of those, and it means that some portion of the fibers aren't contributing to the strength of the part. You don't want unpredictable strength in your chain plates.

 

All this vacuum bagging is a way to apply a nice uniform 14.7 psi over the whole large area, for the purpose of squeezing the laminate to make a nice solid matrix with minimum resin. Even better is to put the part in a pressure cooker - they do that for aerospace stuff, but it's not practical on boat parts.

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Pretty cool stuff. Sure a big change from the Costa Mesa days of a couple of illegals in a mould with brushes and pails of resin.

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Pretty cool stuff. Sure a big change from the Costa Mesa days of a couple of illegals in a mould with brushes and pails of resin.

Or one guy with a chopper gun and a hot mix molding a boat per day in the 70's.

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Bill applied for his patents on the process and it took a while until we were getting acceptable results. Just as soon as we did, he pulled the plug on the project and made me keep it all to the two of us. After that he did his further research at Carderock or the Office of Naval Research where he had iron clad NDA's in place. Bill sold the license to Tillotson-Pearson for the SCRIMP process.

 

Apparently, according to Wikipedia,

 

Hinckley became the first American boat company to use SCRIMP technology (a method of making composite material with nearly no volatile organic compound emissions) in its yachts, for which Hinckley was awarded the United States Environmental Protection Agency’s Environmental Merit Award in 1994.

 

They still use this process. From the specs for the Talaria 43:

 

Hinckley DualGuard® Composite Construction- Aramid fiber/E-glass outer skin. Corecell M Foam for core. Carbon fiber inner skin. Laminated with Vinylester resin using Seaman Composite Resin Infusion Molding Process (SCRIMP®).

 

Are there any benefits to using vinylester over epoxy?

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Bill applied for his patents on the process and it took a while until we were getting acceptable results. Just as soon as we did, he pulled the plug on the project and made me keep it all to the two of us. After that he did his further research at Carderock or the Office of Naval Research where he had iron clad NDA's in place. Bill sold the license to Tillotson-Pearson for the SCRIMP process.

 

Apparently, according to Wikipedia,

 

Hinckley became the first American boat company to use SCRIMP technology (a method of making composite material with nearly no volatile organic compound emissions) in its yachts, for which Hinckley was awarded the United States Environmental Protection Agency’s Environmental Merit Award in 1994.

 

They still use this process. From the specs for the Talaria 43:

 

Hinckley DualGuard® Composite Construction- Aramid fiber/E-glass outer skin. Corecell M Foam for core. Carbon fiber inner skin. Laminated with Vinylester resin using Seaman Composite Resin Infusion Molding Process (SCRIMP®).

 

Are there any benefits to using vinylester over epoxy?

 

Cheaper ?

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Doesn't make any sense to me at all to use carbon and NOT use epoxy. I'll be at the Betts yard today and I'll ask Jim about that. Given Hinkley prices I can't imagine the cost savings to be relevant.

 

KDH:

How's it going?

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Glad to see that Composites World article is about a bunch of Maine folks- we have a real opportunity to be out in front of a lot of this stuff, and building bridges and other projects would dwarf boatbuilding.

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Vinylester layup is actually pretty nice as the numbers for a matrix are balanced, epoxy is actually a bit too strong But Jose will know better how to tell in English.

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KDH

 

I had my doubts about the claim by Hinckley that they were the first to SCRIMP. Did they actually make that claim or was that something from Wiki. I'll stand by TPI (Tillotson-Pearson Inc) as being the first to license from Seemann. J-boats give credit to the Sundeer line as being the first sailboats built in SCRIMP.

 

The J/80 design was announced by J/Boats in late 1992 and the first boats were built in spring 1993 by TPI, Inc. (now Pearson Composites) of Warren, Rhode Island. As the builder, TPI designed and engineered the composite and structural elements of the boat, handled materials purchasing, construction, maintenance of quality standards, invoicing, warrantees, and after sales parts. The J/80 was the first J model built with the resin-infusion system called SCRIMP (Seamann Composite Resin Infusion Molding Process), an environmentally-friendly advanced molding technology invented by Bill Seamann and developed in conjunction with the US Defense Department. The first beneficiaries of the process in the sailboat field were, in succession, the TPI-built Sundeer offshore cruising boat line, the Corsair 31 trimaran, the Hoyt Solar Sailor and the J/80. The industry quickly followed suit and top brands like Hinckley Yachts, Sabre Yachts and others signed license agreements to adopt the technology. Now 16 years later, most of the top manufacturers in the world use the same or similar molding process for larger sail and power yachts.

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Doesn't make any sense to me at all to use carbon and NOT use epoxy. I'll be at the Betts yard today and I'll ask Jim about that. Given Hinkley prices I can't imagine the cost savings to be relevant.

 

We ran into this doing our carbon tubes. It wasn't cost, it was the low viscosity necessary for doing an infused part. From what I was told, as epoxy is created less viscous for infusion, it tends to loose its mechanical properties. If your doing pre-preg, then this is a moot point, go epoxy all the way. Doing infusion, other factors can begin to be more important.

 

-jim lee

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Jim:

Exactly. While it was fun to watch people guess you hit the nail on the head. Jim Betts vacuum bags with thickened epoxy. Infusion does not like thickened epoxy. In fact infusion does not even like normal epoxy. You have to thin the epoxy to infuse it and you lose strength and dramatically loose shelf life. They are now working on special CF fabrics and epoxies to try to get around this problem. But it is a problem.

Chainplates being vacuum bagged. Ten more layers will go on with two more vacuum bagging procedures.

The sea chest is now in place tucked behind the companionway ladder.

cow%20sea%20chest_zpsxnnn62dt.jpg

Hull number two has half the outer CF laminate done now.

cow%20half%20lam_zps3gn9lktn.jpg

Some of my buddies met me on the way home. They came runnnig over. They call me "Moostro".

cows_zpstmtz6cmw.jpg

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Bob, just curious about some of the farm & flower comments you make about your trips to Anacortes - do you drive up 99 when you go there?

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Jon:

No not 9.

 

I drive north from Stanwood on a road that connects Stanwood to Conway.Could be the Old Pioneer Highway. From Conway I go East and then connects to the Best Road that goes straight north where it intersects with the small highway that runs into Anacortes. It's one hour exactly from my shack.

 

There was a small flock of Trumpeter, foraging in the mud right next to the road. These are huge birds and they stand over 3' high. I pulled over quietly and got out. Just as I was about to shoot Ruby busted out ofn the car and spooked them. I got this shot.

cows%20swan_zpsyxsvg5m0.jpg

cows%20moo_zpso8mf6mxw.jpg[/u

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I had the pleasure of taking that route with Bob on his (my) pilgrimage to Betts shop and can attest that it is a very special route. The way home to Bob's shack was even more memorable with a stop for Fish and Chips with at a little place built out over the canal right next to a bridge where we were served by a cute but heavily tattooed waitress that I was smitten by. The fish and chips was pretty good too! I forget the little village where that was, but the round trip and the whole day including the visit to Betts was special. Thanks Bob!

 

He didn't take me to the meat shop where he frequents and slathers his hair with Salmon Oil to charm the girls behind the counter. I think it was a meat shop...

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Rasper:

That was La Conner. I stopped and had fish and chips there today. The tatooed girl is gone. But you will be back soon and we can make it a regular lunch thing on Tuesdays.

The daffodils or maybe Tulips are starting to come out. They will cover the fields as far as you can see. It is amazing.

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Bob. Did you scare her off? I told her I was coming back for her. Oh well, there are plenty fish in the canals of La Conner. I hope we can share the wonders that take place at Betts many times in the future. I'll keep Tuesday open.

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I've never had a tattooed waitress smite me.

 

La Conner is a neat town. Those huge fields of flowers in the spring look like Holland.

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Rasper:

That was La Conner. I stopped and had fish and chips there today. The tatooed girl is gone. But you will be back soon and we can make it a regular lunch thing on Tuesdays.

The daffodils or maybe Tulips are starting to come out. They will cover the fields as far as you can see. It is amazing.

WOW...

 

You just took me down memory lane Bob.

 

I was stationed for A6E school at Whidbey Island NAS in July-Sept 1977, where one night at the club on base, (which, at the time was the hottest place for the local ladies to go within 30 miles), I met a young lady from La Conner. Actually hitchhiked out to see her a few times, amazing area.

 

My favorite place on the journey was always... Deception Pass!

 

Thanks Bob!

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Sloop,

 

Tats and piercings don't usually smite me either, but somehow this girl did. I find myself thinking now just how appealing she might have been without the hardware and ink. Of course I was just being a dirty old man at the time,

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That is a very different looking sea chest than I am used to seeing. Why is it so deep and narrow?

 

Probably so deep to keep the top above the LWL, narrow because it's deep and you don't need any more volume.

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Ish has it.

The sea chest on the carbon cutters is pretty much the same geometry as the one we have on the PSC 63. No point in making it any bigger than necessary. We will build a "case" around the sea chest to house the fuel system, supply, returns, tank manifolds and fuel polishing valves. This all goes under the companionway with the fuel system valves being accessed from the engine room side of the bhd. It will be a busy area when we are done.

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That is a nice solution!. If you don't take precautions, after bagging it will look like this:

11junchainplate.jpg

Is vacuum bagging really necessary for the chainplates? I think mine were hand-layered (glass fiber epoxy).

Yes, absolutely.

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In infusion all the laminate and core are laid into the mold dry so there is no touching the wet resin. We use polyester and vinylester resins and styrene emissions are extremely low (about 95-96% less compared with open layup) with infusion as the vapor is not released from the resin except along the thin edge of the resin front as it moves through the part. One of the reasons we infuse is that it is much easier and cheaper for us to meet state mandated clean air requirements using it. The styrene smell in our shops went way way down after we started. I am not sure if the same holds true for vacuum bagging with epoxy as Betts does.

 

 

Ok, minor diversion - where does the styrene go? I was under the assumption that the styrene was not chemically part of the final laminate, so it needed to gas off during cure (and might even leave tiny passages in the laminate?)

Is that all bogus? Does it get "trapped" in the laminate?

It gets trapped in the laminate.

thanks!

I should say about 95% is trapped in the laminate. About 5% escapes into the vacuum pot and then into the atmosphere when the pot is opened.

From memory there's no styrene based resin used in this project, all epoxy.

 

Using polyester resin with carbon makes absolutely no sense.

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That is a nice solution!. If you don't take precautions, after bagging it will look like this:

11junchainplate.jpg

Is vacuum bagging really necessary for the chainplates? I think mine were hand-layered (glass fiber epoxy).

Yes, absolutely.
Well......

 

Wet layups with open cure can be strong enough but a vacuum or autoclave cure compacts, debulks and gets you a lot closer to a desireable fiber to resin ratio. Mechanical properties are much better bagged and you don't find many builders doing epoxy based wet layup anymore. Lots of variability in a wet layup cured at normal atmosphere. Most builders or better shops will not do an open layup for any structural part. Just can't accurately predict mechanicals which requires massive overbuilding (weight, cost of materials, etc).

 

I would not trash an existing part that wasn't bagged but would buy a new part that wasn't.

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That is a nice solution!. If you don't take precautions, after bagging it will look like this:

11junchainplate.jpg

Is vacuum bagging really necessary for the chainplates? I think mine were hand-layered (glass fiber epoxy).

Yes, absolutely.
Well......

Wet layups with open cure can be strong enough but a vacuum or autoclave cure compacts, debulks and gets you a lot closer to a desireable fiber to resin ratio. Mechanical properties are much better bagged and you don't find many builders doing epoxy based wet layup anymore. Lots of variability in a wet layup cured at normal atmosphere. Most builders or better shops will not do an open layup for any structural part. Just can't accurately predict mechanicals which requires massive overbuilding (weight, cost of materials, etc).

I would not trash an existing part that wasn't bagged but would buy a new part that wasn't.

I know, only been doing it for the last 25 years.

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Ish has it.

The sea chest on the carbon cutters is pretty much the same geometry as the one we have on the PSC 63. No point in making it any bigger than necessary. We will build a "case" around the sea chest to house the fuel system, supply, returns, tank manifolds and fuel polishing valves. This all goes under the companionway with the fuel system valves being accessed from the engine room side of the bhd. It will be a busy area when we are done.

This is what I am used to:

 

SHIPS_SEA_CHEST.jpg

If there is fouling you can access through removable grids. That sea chest looks pretty narrow to be able to access where the intakes are connected.

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Have it your way sailman. We';ll have it ours. Our top is removable to access the inside. This detail was very carefully thought out. Your way would not work for us at all. We have non through hulls below the DWL as per client's request. Uour thru hulls are well above the DWL.

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Sailman:

Yes, I think that feature is pretty common to most sea chests as they can get clogged with growth. I have never lived with one so it's all new to me. We have a dive compressor so we will be able to "blow the tubes" is they get clogged without getting any water into the boat. The tubes go way down into the bilge.

 

Go back to post 4104. This shows the uninstalled sea chest UPSIDE DOWN!

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Rasper:

That was La Conner. I stopped and had fish and chips there today. The tatooed girl is gone. But you will be back soon and we can make it a regular lunch thing on Tuesdays.

The daffodils or maybe Tulips are starting to come out. They will cover the fields as far as you can see. It is amazing.

 

I met a young lady from La Conner.

 

 

Sounds like the first line of a limerick. ;)

 

Your on base club sounds like "An Officer and a Gentleman" - that was set at Whitby NAS IIRC.

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I met a young lady from La Conner

 

Who caught me trying to read her tattoo

 

I asked, 'Would you do me the honor?'

 

She lined up her knuckles and they spelled 'SCREW YOU!!'

 

Don't ask me to write haiku...

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Is vacuum bagging really necessary for the chainplates? I think mine were hand-layered (glass fiber epoxy).

Yes, absolutely.

 

 

Apologies about continuing the thread drift ....

 

Not really, I think. My replacement part was hand laminated, the fibres pulled tightly around the bend and the sides were clamped. Resin to fibre ratio might not be completely optimal, but it is close and more importantly: all fibers are equally loaded.I would not worry about your handlaminated glass chainplates if I were you. If they were engineered to be handlaminated there is no problem.

 

 

11oktchainplates.jpg

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I met a young lady from La Conner

 

Who caught me trying to read her tattoo

 

I asked, 'Would you do me the honor?'

 

She lined up her knuckles and they spelled 'SCREW YOU!!'

 

Don't ask me to write haiku...

HA!

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Don't make my pull out the picture of the non-vacuum bagged carbon fiber shaft log repair on my Catalina 30..oh, shoot..my boat must not be one-design compliant anymore. :unsure:

Carry on with the awesome boat building.

post-4755-0-39532500-1455768369_thumb.jpg

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Don't make my pull out the picture of the non-vacuum bagged carbon fiber shaft log repair on my Catalina 30..oh, shoot..my boat must not be one-design compliant anymore. :unsure:

 

Carry on with the awesome boat building.

 

Looks kinda like roofing tar. I smear that onto fiberglass cloth in my eavestrough to stop leaks. Hope it's working better for you.

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Is vacuum bagging really necessary for the chainplates? I think mine were hand-layered (glass fiber epoxy).

Yes, absolutely.

Apologies about continuing the thread drift ....

 

Not really, I think. My replacement part was hand laminated, the fibres pulled tightly around the bend and the sides were clamped. Resin to fibre ratio might not be completely optimal, but it is close and more importantly: all fibers are equally loaded.I would not worry about your handlaminated glass chainplates if I were you. If they were engineered to be handlaminated there is no problem.

 

 

11oktchainplates.jpg

What size boat and rig loads were you dealing with?

 

Each to their own, not getting dragged into a shit fight over this. Especially not in Bobs thread.

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Don't make my pull out the picture of the non-vacuum bagged carbon fiber shaft log repair on my Catalina 30..oh, shoot..my boat must not be one-design compliant anymore. :unsure:

 

Carry on with the awesome boat building.

Boy, that looks ugly.

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Go ahead, I need some "filler" in the thread until I get back to the yard.

 

Not sure why you used CF for the shaft log repair. It does not appear to me to be the right material for that job. Were you just having fun?

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Given up arguing with most about composite building processes, it's a waste of time, especially when 90% plus are so stuck in there mindset.

 

The possible amount of air entrapment in UD materials makes it a non option for me, I would never entertain the idea.

 

It gets bagged, end of discussion.

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Now I am getting curious. Is UD or Biax more likely to trap air than twill ?

 

Trying to learn her - nothing else.....

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What size boat and rig loads were you dealing with?

 

Each to their own, not getting dragged into a shit fight over this. Especially not in Bobs thread.

 

 

28 ft trimaran. No reason for a shit fight. I don't doubt that you've got 10 times more experience with composite building than I do.

I love this thread for all the interesting info that's in here and Bob sharing his design craftsmanship.

 

I agree that unidirectional carbon needs very careful wetting out. Additionaly I used a sheet of plastic over the peel ply to work out excess epoxy and get rid of any air bubbles, before clamping.

 

The problem with bagging unidirectionals ( and stitched fabrics as well ) around tight corners is that as the laminate gets compressed, the radius around the corner gets less for the outer fibres. When the part gets loaded, the load will transfer to the inner layers. It's not without reason that Bob states that every lamination is limited to 5 layers, even with the 'special tool' that they are using.

 

In general vacuum bagged parts are superior to hand laminated parts, but that doesn't mean that hand laminated parts are rubbish. All I was saying is that Francois shouldn't worry about his chainplates. Neither do I about mine. They are engineered with a genereous safety factor and intended to be hand laminated.

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Good post Nyko. It's so easy to "overbuild" in CF with no significant weight penalty.

+1 Great Post...

 

fs

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Jon:

No not 9.

 

I drive north from Stanwood on a road that connects Stanwood to Conway.Could be the Old Pioneer Highway. From Conway I go East and then connects to the Best Road that goes straight north where it intersects with the small highway that runs into Anacortes. It's one hour exactly from my shack.

 

Sounds like you're driving right past the Conway Pub. They serve one of the best Burgers in the entire area.

 

-jim lee

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Good post Nyko. It's so easy to "overbuild" in CF with no significant weight penalty.

Bob,

 

I saw somewhere recently a term that I wish I had coined, "Carbonmongery". I had to think a second before it was derived from 'Ironmonger'.

 

I'd be prepared to run before calling Jim Betts a 'Carbonmonger' but it certainly fits him!

 

Here is a fine bit of Carbonmongery.

 

71267d1339073447-cheap-simple-rig-beam-1

 

71268d1339073462-cheap-simple-rig-beam-2

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Good post Nyko. It's so easy to "overbuild" in CF with no significant weight penalty.

Bob,

 

I saw somewhere recently a term that I wish I had coined, "Carbonmongery". I had to think a second before it was derived from 'Ironmonger'.

 

I'd be prepared to run before calling Jim Betts a 'Carbonmonger' but it certainly fits him!

 

Here is a fine bit of Carbonmongery.

 

71267d1339073447-cheap-simple-rig-beam-1

 

71268d1339073462-cheap-simple-rig-beam-2

 

If you are going to post pictures like that you need to put a NSFW warning on your post! ;)

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Good post Nyko. It's so easy to "overbuild" in CF with no significant weight penalty.

Bob,

 

I saw somewhere recently a term that I wish I had coined, "Carbonmongery". I had to think a second before it was derived from 'Ironmonger'.

 

I'd be prepared to run before calling Jim Betts a 'Carbonmonger' but it certainly fits him!

 

Here is a fine bit of Carbonmongery.

 

71267d1339073447-cheap-simple-rig-beam-1

 

71268d1339073462-cheap-simple-rig-beam-2

 

Oooooohhhhh!

 

Wish I could get my interior varnish that nice.

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Doesn't make any sense to me at all to use carbon and NOT use epoxy. I'll be at the Betts yard today and I'll ask Jim about that. Given Hinkley prices I can't imagine the cost savings to be relevant.

 

KDH:

How's it going?

 

I'm great, Bob. Thanks. Just got back from skiing with Adele in Maine for a few days. She'll be taller than I am by the end of the year.

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Good post Nyko. It's so easy to "overbuild" in CF with no significant weight penalty.

Bob,

 

I saw somewhere recently a term that I wish I had coined, "Carbonmongery". I had to think a second before it was derived from 'Ironmonger'.

 

I'd be prepared to run before calling Jim Betts a 'Carbonmonger' but it certainly fits him!

 

Here is a fine bit of Carbonmongery.

 

71267d1339073447-cheap-simple-rig-beam-1

 

71268d1339073462-cheap-simple-rig-beam-2

 

Wow. Even I could fall in love with "carbonmongery", looking that fine.

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After reviewing the last few pages, the level of detail and work involved almost seems ridiculous. I'm glad that things like this exist, but my lower class brain just can't comprehend the value proposition.

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We have been infusing since 2002 and it has proven to be a constant learning and improvement experience. We started with small flat panels and worked up to entire decks, then compound curved superstructure parts, then parts with beams added then entire hulls until today we infuse everything but small parts. We held (and may still hold) the record for the largest infusion, a 164 foot displacement motor yacht hull. It takes time to get it right but once you do it works very well.

 

I think Jim Betts is correct in choosing not to do infusion at his shop. He build's excellent boats using vacuum bagging without the added expense and learning curve incurred by infusion.

 

I just came across a chain of comment about infusion on the "This looks bad" thread about the 82' Oyster than lost its keel. They start about post 184, and this link may, or may not take you there:

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=167311&p=5147114

 

I don't know anything about this topic, and I know I don't know anything about it. However. I do find it interesting to see how information flows through an industry, and how it gets different reactions based the observer's experience and responsibilities.

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One of Bett's guys just finished a CF banjo. It is a work of art.

Any pics of that, Bob?

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Sailby

No and their will not be any for a while. I tried to coax him into letting me post some but he's afraid of giving his secrets away too soon. I guess. I'll ask again.

I think his first one went into the Museum at Elderly Instruments in Nashville. Maybe if you go to Elderly's web site you might find a pic.

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We have been infusing since 2002 and it has proven to be a constant learning and improvement experience. We started with small flat panels and worked up to entire decks, then compound curved superstructure parts, then parts with beams added then entire hulls until today we infuse everything but small parts. We held (and may still hold) the record for the largest infusion, a 164 foot displacement motor yacht hull. It takes time to get it right but once you do it works very well.

 

I think Jim Betts is correct in choosing not to do infusion at his shop. He build's excellent boats using vacuum bagging without the added expense and learning curve incurred by infusion.

 

I just came across a chain of comment about infusion on the "This looks bad" thread about the 82' Oyster than lost its keel. They start about post 184, and this link may, or may not take you there:

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=167311&p=5147114

 

I don't know anything about this topic, and I know I don't know anything about it. However. I do find it interesting to see how information flows through an industry, and how it gets different reactions based the observer's experience and responsibilities.

Dry laminates can occur with poor infusion techniques. This is why it is important to start small and work your way up gathering experience as you go. Fixing a small or uncomplicated part is much easier than starting with a complex, critical and/or expensive part and ending up with a disaster and having to eat the part. Since we do not rely on gel coat for our finished surfaces we have a clear view of both sides of the laminate so we can see if there are any obvious problems after infusion. No matter what process you use, doing it poorly will give you crappy results. GIGO.

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I don't think that a shiny mast like that is such a good idea. All masts should have a matt finish to reduce glare. You might as well paint the deck high gloss white and electropolish all the ports and hatches.

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Sailby

No and their will not be any for a while. I tried to coax him into letting me post some but he's afraid of giving his secrets away too soon. I guess. I'll ask again.

I think his first one went into the Museum at Elderly Instruments in Nashville. Maybe if you go to Elderly's web site you might find a pic.

Thanks, Bob. A few guitars and lots of pics - but no cigar (banjo) sadly.

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