Bob Perry

My newest project

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I knew you were kidding kdh. It just brought back some funny memories.

 

 

I have no idea what either of you is talking about??

 

 

:huh:

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If strength and related properties are the goal I can see the reason for the choice. Hinckley did extensive studies on the best layup material for a hull, especially given the collsions with rocks that inevitably happen in Maine. They decided on a combination of glass, carbon fiber, and kevlar. This was used for my hull.

 

Jim, they tested with bullets. The kevlar made the hull bulletproof, literally. Carbon alone was not.

KDH... back in 1991 when I built my SW 42, Hinckley was beginning to experiment with kevlar. I was visiting the factory one day to finalize my build and Bob Hinckley showed me some FRP panels that had a layer or two of kevlar that he’s taken a few shots at with a 9mm. My 42 42060 was built with a core of bagged Airex foam and glass/kevlar in all vinyl ester .

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Vinny:

you are slowly catching on.

I would only say, do not underestimate just how "tough" a good CF laminate can be. We will do some testing when we have samples.

We will not use Kevlar.

I think Jan and Meade Gougeon used all carbon in thier G32. Friend has one and it has stood up very well despite being very light.

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If strength and related properties are the goal I can see the reason for the choice. Hinckley did extensive studies on the best layup material for a hull, especially given the collsions with rocks that inevitably happen in Maine. They decided on a combination of glass, carbon fiber, and kevlar. This was used for my hull.

 

Jim, they tested with bullets. The kevlar made the hull bulletproof, literally. Carbon alone was not.

KDH... back in 1991 when I built my SW 42, Hinckley was beginning to experiment with kevlar. I was visiting the factory one day to finalize my build and Bob Hinckley showed me some FRP panels that had a layer or two of kevlar that he’s taken a few shots at with a 9mm. My 42 42060 was built with a core of bagged Airex foam and glass/kevlar in all vinyl ester .

 

 

I think starting with the "Mark II" models (when they replaced the deck mold, among other things--longer boom, etc), I believe 42064 was the first one, they added carbon fiber. I think this blend is now consistently used on all boats, including the power boats.

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I'm not sure that testing with a 9mm is very relevant to hitting a rock at 6 knots. Maybe if you had a Mach 1 sailboat....

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Makes for great advertising copy If it withstands it though.

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Valiant used it for adds in 1974. Back when they were the first, I think, to use Lexan in their hatches.

Yeah, good old Lexan. I was building commuter trains at General Electric around that time. The windows on the cars were Lexan. You can scratch it with anything harder than a thumbnail but it will stop a bullet for sure.

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I'm not sure that testing with a 9mm is very relevant to hitting a rock at 6 knots. Maybe if you had a Mach 1 sailboat....

And a 9mm diameter rock...

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Lexan is really strong. Alan Bond used (Ben) Lexan to stop Dennis Conner.

 

WOW - that IS tough stuff!

 

post-95343-0-52533900-1425250087_thumb.jpg

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Vic:

No that had not crossed my mind. It sounds very expensive. Buy some "throw away" hatches to use as tools?

Let me think on that for a while.

 

That's a definite option. I spoke with my boat whisperer on the weekend. He has had all manner of marine parts cast in bronze and aluminum (or almag). I would expect that the real cost is in the final finishing/polishing, as no doubt you will want a highly polished finish :D .

 

He told me of having some problems with the baked-on finish of the cast iron grates on his Jenn-Aire range (I must be paying him too much). He simply took them to his friendly foundry and had them cast in bronze. We don't need no stinkin finish!

 

Starkers

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Bob, I see a potential snag point between the "c-strut" and keel. If this joint is not minimized or covered there is a possibility to catch lines from fishing bouys there.

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Chippin:

It will be as you see it in the drawings. I see no problem. I'm not sure what you are seeing. Can you explain more clearly please?

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Will the trailing edge of the keel effect the water flow over the rudder? or fancy talk - will laminar flow be compromised?

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Just catching up after a week away. WOW, 4 boats for the same owner. That's got to be a record of some sort. Congratulations.

 

I was not really sure what to think of this boat when Bob posted the first drawings but looking at the latest set, I've really come to like it a lot.

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I like the boat from the waterline up. Make mine a longish fin keel with single engine and inboard spade rudder.

 

What I don't understand is there is a lovely aperture to protect a prop from debris, and it is empty. Instead there are exposed twin saildrives in a position where any passing log or crab trap line can wipe them out. I get that if you are going to have redundant redundancy two engines are better than one, but having both drives so susceptible to damage takes away a lot of that advantage. If I was going to put in two propulsion units I would have one in the keel aperture and the other as a wing engine.

 

Unfortunately, I'm not the guy with the $ driving this project, so I'll just sit back and enjoy the view.

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Looks like the sail drives are fairly far inboard so that may afford a little protection from the crab trap lines. I agree that all bets are off in regards to logs or other floating debris. As Bob says: "The client gets what the client wants."

 

I the meantime, I a looking forward to watching the build X 4.

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I wonder what happens with the props up against the keel. I have read that prop walk, vibration and other motoring behaviour can be related to the prop wash hitting the underside of the hull. Here you have 2 surfaces near, the hull and the keel. Does it make a difference?

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I wonder what happens with the props up against the keel. I have read that prop walk, vibration and other motoring behaviour can be related to the prop wash hitting the underside of the hull. Here you have 2 surfaces near, the hull and the keel. Does it make a difference?

I don't think it will be an issue, When older boats were fitted with engines a few had the engine put of-center because there was no room for a prop between the keel and the rudder.

I've never driven a boat set up like that but I seem to remember being told that there was no prop walk because of the keel being becide the prop.

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I wonder what happens with the props up against the keel. I have read that prop walk, vibration and other motoring behaviour can be related to the prop wash hitting the underside of the hull. Here you have 2 surfaces near, the hull and the keel. Does it make a difference?

I don't think it will be an issue, When older boats were fitted with engines a few had the engine put of-center because there was no room for a prop between the keel and the rudder.

I've never driven a boat set up like that but I seem to remember being told that there was no prop walk because of the keel being becide the prop.

 

 

My C&C 29-2 had an offset prop, you had to keep a solid hand on the tiller when motoring because of the off-center thrust. On the other hand, it made pulling the prop shaft really easy.

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I wonder what happens with the props up against the keel. I have read that prop walk, vibration and other motoring behaviour can be related to the prop wash hitting the underside of the hull. Here you have 2 surfaces near, the hull and the keel. Does it make a difference?

I don't think it will be an issue, When older boats were fitted with engines a few had the engine put of-center because there was no room for a prop between the keel and the rudder.

I've never driven a boat set up like that but I seem to remember being told that there was no prop walk because of the keel being becide the prop.

 

My C&C 29-2 had an offset prop, you had to keep a solid hand on the tiller when motoring because of the off-center thrust. On the other hand, it made pulling the prop shaft really easy.

 

Off-center thrust and prop walk are not the same.

How was the C&C for prop walk?

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I wonder what happens with the props up against the keel. I have read that prop walk, vibration and other motoring behaviour can be related to the prop wash hitting the underside of the hull. Here you have 2 surfaces near, the hull and the keel. Does it make a difference?

I don't think it will be an issue, When older boats were fitted with engines a few had the engine put of-center because there was no room for a prop between the keel and the rudder.

I've never driven a boat set up like that but I seem to remember being told that there was no prop walk because of the keel being becide the prop.

 

My C&C 29-2 had an offset prop, you had to keep a solid hand on the tiller when motoring because of the off-center thrust. On the other hand, it made pulling the prop shaft really easy.

 

Off-center thrust and prop walk are not the same.

How was the C&C for prop walk?

 

 

It was noticeably worse than on my 35 with centerline prop. Very similar boats otherwise, Max Prop on both.

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I like the boat from the waterline up. Make mine a longish fin keel with single engine and inboard spade rudder.

 

What I don't understand is there is a lovely aperture to protect a prop from debris, and it is empty. Instead there are exposed twin saildrives in a position where any passing log or crab trap line can wipe them out. I get that if you are going to have redundant redundancy two engines are better than one, but having both drives so susceptible to damage takes away a lot of that advantage. If I was going to put in two propulsion units I would have one in the keel aperture and the other as a wing engine.

 

Unfortunately, I'm not the guy with the $ driving this project, so I'll just sit back and enjoy the view.

I think this is a valid point. Why not two props in the aperture - one above the other. One engine forward, the other traditional. Redundancy, not exposed and symmetry whichever you use.

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Hell, let's make it complicated. Volvo makes a drive leg with two concentric counter rotating props on it. You just need to hook up one engine to each. Put that in the aperture on CL. These drives can be rotated for vectored thrust, so now you have really good maneuverability too. Gonna cost a little, but it doesn't appear that there is much of a budget constraint on this one (or four).

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Kind of nice when the cat's away. "This is a real client, with real desires. Nothing on this boat is an accident."

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Kind of nice when the cat's away. "This is a real client, with real desires. Nothing on this boat is an accident."

 

Yep, if Bob were here he'd be showering us with abuse.

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Oooo! Let's sprinkle 5 or 6 azimuthing pods with with counter rotating props around the boat and and they can be powered by electric motors with electricity generated from a fusion reactor. Gawd I love abuse. Sorry, I am in a grumpy bad mood today.

 

Edit: the fact is with proper tip clearance, 15% or more, there should be no vibration problems and placing the drives in the aperture will just screw up clean flow to the rudders. Most of all, if the client likes it, and it works, it's gonna be ok.

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Here is the deal:

I just sent two days with the client at his beach shack. (If his is a shack what do I call mine?"

 

All this twin engine, two props thing is new to both of us. We understand that we are going to have to experiment around with one engine, two engines and then the props turning either way

But here's the deal: We know we have to fuss with this and we will fuss with it. We know we are smart fellows and we know we can in time solve this problem, if there is a problem. And,,,,there may be no problem. I stand in front of the client and say, "I have no fucking idea." I am soooo good at this that I am long past feeling bad about the little things I don't know. For years I have just said, "Search me?" I am not going to BS an answer.

Now I know, while I may not know the answer now, I can, with some (and my SA WLYDO budies) time figure it out.

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I agree with the comment that someone made that a prop alongside a keel surface will not have much propwalking effect since the keel acts as a baffle to any athwarthship crossflow. I like that new SD 60 unit from Yanmar which permits the counter-rotation. It seems that they have addressed some of the shortcomings and objections to the Yanmar saildrives. Being able to change the lower unit lube (ATF?) from inside the boat unlike having to haul and pull a plug like on an outboard lower unit is a huge improvement. Also if this unit can be switched for rotation, it would figure that the thrust bearings would have to be symmetric which seems to be an issue on the SD 40 which has been replaced by the SD 60.

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Bob, the boat is looking really nice. I like the refinement to the cabin trunks a lot. I think the boat will perform well with the props where they are. Better than a single screw sailboat but not quite as nimble as a twin screw motor boat

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Will the motors be verticle or will the saildrives splay outward?

Seems to me that there could be advantages of mounting the engines at a 5 deg outward splay.

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I like the schoonery New England whalerish, crisp dark grey/white contrast.Subtle, but awesome in showing the lines.

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Farfarer came to my mind at the beginning of the thread. Also full keel with twin engines, but conventional instead of saildrives. And a much different rig. ;)

 

Maybe they'll share their experiences and give Bob a head start?

 

 

There is a thread, the owner posted in it. (But has been inactive since, their blog ends mid 2013.)

I did not find drawings. The builder has a construction gallery, the launch has a view of the drive train. There is a more complete build gallery at flicker by the owner.

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Thanks Chasm for those links. I think Nigel Irons is a very good designer. If he can make twin engines work I think we can. I mush prefer sail drives due to the reduced drag and ease of mounting.

 

I just sent an email to Nigel Irons asking him if he would be willing to have a chat about the success of the twins.

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Nigel Irens

 

Nigel Irens RDI is a leading yacht designer. He is perhaps best known as designer of the Adventurer, a 35m trimaran motor yacht which completed a record-breaking circumnavigation in 1998, and of the record-breaking trimaran used by Ellen MacArthur to break the world record for solo circumnavigation in 2005.

His design portfolio is wide-ranging, from record-breaking yachts to innovative cruising designs such as Roxane, syntheses of traditional design such as the Westernman cutters– designed in association with Ed Burnett – or the launch Rangeboat, a 12m meter power craft of traditional appearance.

The designer also in association with Ed Burnett, designed the King Alfred dinghy to be built by King Alfred School in London. The school has built three so far and use them to introduce students to dinghy cruising.

Irens is perhaps particularly noteworthy for the simplicity, the efficiency, the essential elegance of his design.

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I was curious about the RDI suffix after Nigels name. I figured it must be some Royal honor or something so Googled it and found that it stands for Royal Designer for Industry. Couldn't find him on their site, but he apparently was given the title in 2005.

 

Nigel Irens RDI

Trimaran-Nigel-Irens-300x199.jpgNigel Irens is a world leading British yacht designer who is perhaps best known as the designer of the Adventurer, a 35m trimaran motor yacht which completed a record-breaking circumnavigation of the world in 1998, and of the record-breaking trimaran used by Ellen MacArthur to break the world record for solo circumnavigation in 2005.

Nigel was recognised for Engineering Design in 2005 by having the distinction of being appointed a Royal Designer for Industry. As well as large vessels, he has co-designed the King Alfred dingy to be built by King Alfred School in London and used to introduce students to dinghy sailing.

Here is a link to the society page, interesting to see all the boat and yacht designer on the list.

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Nigel Irens

 

Nigel Irens RDI is a leading yacht designer. He is perhaps best known as designer of the Adventurer, a 35m trimaran motor yacht which completed a record-breaking circumnavigation in 1998, and of the record-breaking trimaran used by Ellen MacArthur to break the world record for solo circumnavigation in 2005.

 

That was an epic voyage. Ellen is a hero of mine.

Hell, a lot of her work is pretty epic.

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Apparently, this used to be Nigel Irens':

roana+1.jpg

Roana. Not sure about the three-masted junk rig, but I love Irens' ideas re the deckhouse(s).

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Just thinking is the client having the same colour scheme for all the different vessels, or will they be different. And imagine the difficulty in choosing 4 names I had enough problems choosing one name. Wish I had that problem I love the idea of a number of vessels in different parts of the world perfect idea.

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Just thinking is the client having the same colour scheme for all the different vessels, or will they be different. And imagine the difficulty in choosing 4 names I had enough problems choosing one name.

Easy. Just name them after something that comes as a set of 4.

 

e.g. the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are traditionally named War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death. There's your 4 boat names.

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Next week we give the cutter an entirely new paint job. Nothing garish just some color.

sat%201_zpsaebappiu.jpg

Lots to love, but TwoLegged no like:

  • Engines outside aperture. Makes em vulnerable to snagging
  • Over-fat boom. Is the owner insisting on one of those 'orrible furling boom things?
  • Lack of any provision for sprayhood
  • Very angular rudder-head
  • No grab rails on coachroof
  • No dorade vents
  • Where's the chimney for the furnace to keep the salon snug?
  • No provision for boarding over the transom. How about some steps on the rudder
I know, it's not your boat Ms TwoLegs ...

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Just thinking is the client having the same colour scheme for all the different vessels, or will they be different. And imagine the difficulty in choosing 4 names I had enough problems choosing one name.

Easy. Just name them after something that comes as a set of 4.

 

e.g. the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are traditionally named War, Famine, Pestilence, and Death. There's your 4 boat names.

 

Earth, Air, Fire & Water possibly slightly less apocalyptic. As part of a two word name? Earth Sprite, Air Sprite etc..

 

Going for 4 smaller boats rather than the normal solution of one big n-feet long cruising boat with full time paid crew to take her where needed is interesting. So that's four boats dotted around the world. Wonder where they're going to be. PNW? (one at home). Caribbean? Somewhere Southern Hemisphere - Oz/NZ/SE Asia? Europe/Med?

 

8 engines must significantly increase the maintenance burden. And as each boat will be spending 3/4 of the time laid up, is there going to be a paid hand flying around the place, to commission each boat as required? Lots of fitting out/laying up to do. Suppose that means lots of fitting out/laying up suppers.

 

NMB, but if I were to be looking at redundancy in the drive chain, I might talk to Nigel Calder and install a hybrid system with an electric engine slaved onto the prop shaft. Especially on a heavy boat where you could put some batteries in the bilge. Range issues, it's true. But they're NMBs.

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Holy cow Legs!

To begin with you are missing items clearly shown on the drawings.

Don't think your taste has anything to do with what shape I make the rudder head.

You are ignoring an important word on all the drawings "preliminary"!

 

I suggest you study the drawings a lot more closely.

The renderings are very clearly a work in progress.

I suggest you realize we are early in the design process and items like stern boarding ladder almost never show up at the preliminary stage.

I suggest you actually read this thread. It might clear up areas where you are confused.

 

For instance, the boom is now a Park Ave style boom. I thought I had explained that earlier.

 

Of course if your knickers are twisted due to the jump out of the box with four boats compared to Eric's never ending, unsuccessful struggle to get one even started then so be it.. Not my problem.

 

I love that Nigel Irons boat with the split cabin trunk. Love the offset mizzen mast.

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Apparently, this used to be Nigel Irens':

roana+1.jpg

Roana. Not sure about the three-masted junk rig, but I love Irens' ideas re the deckhouse(s).

 

 

The thing I like about Nigel is that he can do a RTW Maxi trmaran that looks like something beamed down from the DeathStar and then the next project will be a very traditional looking boat as pictured. Lots of designers make a slow progression from one style to another over the years, But Nigel will do wild pendelum swings from one extreme to the other and then back again over and over. Power and sail.

 

As for the name for the four cutters, my nomination would be: EENY, MEENY, MINY, MOE.

 

eeny_meeny_miny_moe_print-r5704f00672ef4

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Bob,

 

You might give these guys a call for your bronze hatch. They probably won't have a mold, but they make most of the bronze rudders and shaft struts for all the distributors up and down the east coast and have a full CNC shop.

 

http://southeasternfoundries.com/SEF%20Marine%20Items.html

 

Cheers,

Zach

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Since the boats will probably be used serially and seasonally, how about emulating Vivaldi?

 

La primavera, L'estate, L'autunno, and L'inverno.

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Apparently, this used to be Nigel Irens':

roana+1.jpg

Roana. Not sure about the three-masted junk rig, but I love Irens' ideas re the deckhouse(s).

 

Pretty sure Roanna is lug rigged, not junk rigged. Not quite the same thing.

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Zach: Thanks for that tip but I think we are happy with s.s. now. It makes things easier for me in going forward and matching other hardware. Personally I like the look of s.s. better.

 

Rasper:

Great name idea. I'll certainly pass that along.

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[quote name="Matagi" post

 

Pretty sure Roanna is lug rigged, not junk rigged. Not quite the same thing.

 

Correct. I had a rough night, sorry...

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Holy cow Legs!

To begin with you are missing items clearly shown on the drawings.

Don't think your taste has anything to do with what shape I make the rudder head.

You are ignoring an important word on all the drawings "preliminary"!

Sorry, Bob, I was being a little tongue-in-cheek and should have used a smiley.

 

Anyway, I'll take you at your word that the details is all preliminary .. and like I said, I am not your client :)

 

Much relieved to hear the plan now is for a Park Ave style boom. Sorry if I missed that earlier.

 

I do love the hull and keel shape and the split cabin trunk. It's gonna be a great boat, or rather a great quartet.

 

Any twist in my knickers is due to the realisation that I probably couldn't afford even half of one of these gems.

 

It's a much finer craft than Erik's pinch-ended IOR tribute act :)

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Legs:

Maybe someone here can post a pic of the "design spiral" as illustrated and explained in my book.

It works like this: You start on the outside of the spiral and circle your way inwards passing over in each revolution the basic elements of the design. As you continue to pass over them and get close to the center each element is explored and refined. Items like stern boarding ladder are not address until you are well into the spiral. There simply is no reason worry about an easy component like that in the early stages of the design. Designs evolve. They are not born intact and detailed. That is the nature of design, define, explore and refine.

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Bob,

 

This chart seems to fit the bill well.

 

DESIGN%20SPIRAL%20WITH%20TEXT%20LARGE.jp

 

However, this one borrowed from the graphic design field may come closer to reality in many cases...

 

tumblr_legi4btttt1qz6f9yo1_500.jpg

 

Dick Newick was fond of this one.

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My spiral diagram was cooler.

 

 

I don't have your book, would love to see your spiral.

 

This is a good one from ship design but a lot would apply to yachts I would thing,

 

iterativeboatdesign.gif

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I'm calling Vinnie right now.

Better call Saul

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Nothing wrong with saying you don't know, I use that line allot.

 

Here is the deal:

I just sent two days with the client at his beach shack. (If his is a shack what do I call mine?"

 

All this twin engine, two props thing is new to both of us. We understand that we are going to have to experiment around with one engine, two engines and then the props turning either way

But here's the deal: We know we have to fuss with this and we will fuss with it. We know we are smart fellows and we know we can in time solve this problem, if there is a problem. And,,,,there may be no problem. I stand in front of the client and say, "I have no fucking idea." I am soooo good at this that I am long past feeling bad about the little things I don't know. For years I have just said, "Search me?" I am not going to BS an answer.

Now I know, while I may not know the answer now, I can, with some (and my SA WLYDO budies) time figure it out.

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It's a much finer craft than Erik's pinch-ended IOR tribute act :)

 

 

Which boat is this you are talking about? Link?

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It's a much finer craft than Erik's pinch-ended IOR tribute act :)

 

 

Which boat is this you are talking about? Link?

 

 

Adventure 40 thread.

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Of course if your knickers are twisted due to the jump out of the box with four boats compared to Eric's never ending, unsuccessful struggle to get one even started then so be it.. Not my problem.

 

 

 

It's Erik dammit!

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Thanks for all the design spirals, folks. Good stuff.

 

I had kinda assumed that this project was deeper into that spiral than is actually the case. Sorry!

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Bob wtf is this.

Looks like a sea born Starship Galactica.

JrWvZ8c.jpg

This is seriously out there in so many ways.

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He was our local sailmaker when he was a Bob.

I still have a Miller and Whitworth No 2 for the Brolga I set to see if there are any `trainspotters' out sailing...

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Bob wtf is this.

Looks like a sea born Starship Galactica.

JrWvZ8c.jpg

This is seriously out there in so many ways.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Rasps… but I think this 3 D angle distorts the aft sections without any other perspective cues to help.

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Bob wtf is this.

Looks like a sea born Starship Galactica.

JrWvZ8c.jpg

This is seriously out there in so many ways.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Rasps… but I think this 3 D angle distorts the aft sections without any other perspective cues to help.

 

It is an odd perspective all round, the stern appears to be a canoe, as the black swallows the edge line, and check out the funky little kick in the bootstripe on the bow. I think the perspective might be dragging the props forward a bit too.

I used to have great fun using perspective renders to hide the bits of the machine that weren't quite finished yet, but it can get pretty strange looking at times

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There is some hollow in the entry and you see that in this perspective. It looks a bit exaggerated but other than that I see no problems with this rendering. There is obviously a transom there.Prop position looks perfect. But I have the advantage of looking at the hull every day. I know it well by now.

 

'I had kinda assumed that this project was deeper into that spiral than is actually the case. Sorry! '

Legs,

the spiral is kind of a metafor for a process. Don't take it too literally.

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There is some hollow in the entry and you see that in this perspective. It looks a bit exaggerated but other than that I see no problems with this rendering. There is obviously a transom there.Prop position looks perfect. But I have the advantage of looking at the hull every day. I know it well by now.

 

'I had kinda assumed that this project was deeper into that spiral than is actually the case. Sorry! '

Legs,

the spiral is kind of a metafor for a process. Don't take it too literally.

 

Yeah, when I was younger I took it too literally and got dizzy and fell down.

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Jose;

Well yes, there was that problem.

 

Sail-High:

Yes, there will be a dodger as clearly shown on the sail plan posted. Go back a ways on the thread and you can find the sail plan. Post #619 shows it in red.

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There is some hollow in the entry and you see that in this perspective.

 

 

I find the phenomenon of the hollow in the bow somewhat interesting, especially as designers are forever saying they want to push some fullness into the ends. Plus it looks unexpected. I asked Bob about it back when the Flying Tiger was under discussion, and he said it arose naturally from the curve of areas that he wanted to use.

 

[i was going to say what I think it's due to, but every time I write it out, it looks like nonsense. Something to do with the deep chin, I think.]

 

Walking around a boatyard, you can see that some boats have hollow, some have straight lines at the bow.

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