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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Bob Perry

My newest project

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Alfresco Composites. They are in the old Hinckley complex in RI.

 

http://alfrescocomposites.tumblr.com/

 

They seem to have a thing for carbon fiber.

 

tumblr_n22p27W3VM1tv6f6io4_500.jpg

 

I was joking around after some racing on a Concordia built Custom racer and joked that the boat should have a Carbon Fiber head since most of the interior was in modular units that could be removed for Gran Prix racing. The owner thought I was serious and even offered to put up some funding to get the project going. I should have listened. I was going to call the head the 'BLACK HOLE'!

 

Turns out that there is a selection of CF heads!

 

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This one even tacks! (COMANCHE)

 

Photo-13_Tacking-Head.jpg

 

The Thetford models look pretty nicely finished. 15 lbs

 

Tecma-High-Low-Post-1024x638.jpg

 

So for those of you who think I don't know shit, I know my SHIT!

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Splash marks on the Comanche seat.

 

Kristy would not be pleased.

 

Sure, but she serves at the pleasure of the owner.

 

Looks like salt water to me more than piss. Who opened the fucking port without closing it?!

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Any Hinckley Complex probably has something to do with a sense of entitlement and self-worth . . .

 

You should visit the yard in Southwest Harbor. Great people.

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Splash marks on the Comanche seat.

Kristy would not be pleased.

 

Sure, but she serves at the pleasure of the owner.

 

Looks like salt water to me more than piss. Who opened the fucking port without closing it?!

Looks like undersplash to me, no evidence of oversplash.

 

Someone didn't lift the seat....

 

What is a fucking port? Sounds interesting.

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Splash marks on the Comanche seat.

Kristy would not be pleased.

Sure, but she serves at the pleasure of the owner.

 

Looks like salt water to me more than piss. Who opened the fucking port without closing it?!

Looks like undersplash to me, no evidence of oversplash.

 

Someone didn't lift the seat....

 

What is a fucking port? Sounds interesting.

 

 

Leave it for a few days then give it the smell test. I'm sure you'll get a result.

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Splash marks on the Comanche seat.

Kristy would not be pleased.

Sure, but she serves at the pleasure of the owner.

 

Looks like salt water to me more than piss. Who opened the fucking port without closing it?!

Looks like undersplash to me, no evidence of oversplash.

 

Someone didn't lift the seat....

 

What is a fucking port? Sounds interesting.

 

 

Nah. Those Comanche guys are tough. They piss salt water for sure.

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Bruce King, no question.

Yup. see corrected post, just above yours.

 

 

Good thing you cleared that up. Otherwise Perry might claim he designed it.

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I'd be concerned by the small diameter of the outlet...

Particularly as the VOR boats use dried food and dehydration is a big issue throughout the race.

 

I suspect they are vacuum toilets like on airplanes .

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I'd be concerned about the exposed hardware on the front. And lack of apparent hand-holds. Doesn't look like an easy space to clean, either.

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Sorry to interrupt the black hole hijack but I did go to the yard today and I took some photos. I think they are all self explanatory so I'll skip the explanations. I did get a good shot of the almost complete sea chest. I know that component has confused a few of you. Teak cap rail is being fitted. Jigs are being made so we can cut cap rails for four boats. Systems are going in. No changes now. Ruby once again beats me up the scaffolding.

 

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Thanks Crash. I think my photography is slowly improving. I haven't used the flash for a month.

 

Those two teak "boomerangs" are galley counter fiddle pieces.

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Thanks for the update Bob. They're moving right along. I hope you told them not to run that wiring harness through the portlight. That's going to leak.

 

Seriously the systems and the joinery are very interesting to me. Looking good!

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Lasal:

When it comes to the systems I don't tell them anything. I can't even tell you what all that shite is. Anthony is in charge and he is having a blast.

 

Here is Anthony, on the left, playing with his wires.

039_zpsflc6vcrr.jpg

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So Bob, what does your client think of his current boat, the Cape George?

 

I would imagine you would have gathered quite a bit of feedback about it by now.

 

Is it politically correct to share it?

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Olaf:

I have no idea what he thinks of the Cape George. I think he sold it a while back. He never mentions it and I never ask.

I never liked that boat. The builder screwed up the Atkln sheerline and I can't forgive him for that.

I guess it's a fine, boring boat.

 

Steve is threatening to bring in his carbon banjo maybe next week!

I'll slip him a micky at coffee break and snap some photos of it while he sleeps.

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Lasal:

When it comes to the systems I don't tell them anything. I can't even tell you what all that shite is. Anthony is in charge and he is having a blast.

 

Here is Anthony, on the left, playing with his wires.

039_zpsflc6vcrr.jpg

Wow, best photo yet. That is an impressive boat in case anyone hasn't noticed.

 

Yeah, I was just kidding about the wiring harness of course. But it is amazing what poors into a boat of this scale.

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Sav:

Which pump are you referring to? The one with the yellow SMS on it? I will be back at the yard tomorrow with Boomer and I can ask about the pump.

 

Olaf:

Look at this pic. See those stubs protruding above the bulwark. The stanchions slide over those stubs and end at the top of the bulwark. The stanchions themselves do not penetrate the bulwark.

 

038_zpslrohyn9c.jpg

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Any Hinckley Complex probably has something to do with a sense of entitlement and self-worth . . .

 

You should visit the yard in Southwest Harbor. Great people.

Finest kind people.

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Any Hinckley Complex probably has something to do with a sense of entitlement and self-worth . . .

You should visit the yard in Southwest Harbor. Great people.

Finest kind people.

Apologies to all for a glib quip based on no first hand knowledge and an addiction to puns.

 

Bob, is the teak on the bulwark/toe rail being finished bright, or left to go grey?

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The coachroof lines, coaming intersection, handrails, bulwark, and butterfly hatch evoke Baba 40 in all the right ways.

 

Thanks for the progress pics, and please remind the Betts crew that their exemplary craftsmanship and clean + organized = safe production environment are inspiring. Clearly, there's enviable talent in that shop.

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037_zpsgcagkz1r.jpg

038_zpslrohyn9c.jpg

022_zpsy675g1mo.jpg032_zpsz4tgfgxj.jpg

 

This is the pump that I was referring to. I have never seen this type before. The black thingy on the end looks like a pressure switch so i'm guessing that it's a water pressure pump.

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Actually, that is a Webasto diesel fired hydronic boiler. The black thingy on the right underside is the system pump. I'm sure they have this installed correctly, but on a sailboat it must be mounted fore and aft. I learned this the hard way. Sure Marine Services rocks.

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Ed:

Not sure but I sure hope it will be varnished. Keeping the varnish up should not be a problem for my client.

 

I did not go back to the yard today with Boomer. We'll go up together next week.

 

Bill:

I'll check and make sure that pump is mounted fore and aft. I am pretty sure it is. Thanks for that tip.

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Selfish Photo/Update BUMP...

 

Hi Bob!!!

 

I know that you have like 6 or 7... maybe 8 boats in the works now, just "Jonesing" for some pics...

 

So how's it going?

 

Selfish fs

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Fs:

Boomer took a lot of photos on Wednesday and I think he may have them up today. He took a lot of the systems installations so that should be interesting. I'll give him a nudge. He did put a few up on FB.

 

I've been working on an interior layout for the pilot house version. Just for the fun of it. I'll post that later when I have it finished.

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Harken's USA Sales Manager Jim Anderson and West Coast Sales Rep Rusty Rutherford came up to Betts Boats to check out the Carbon Cutters project yesterday.

 

L-R - Robert Perry, Betts Boats' Neil Racicot, Rusty Rutherford and Jim Andersen.

 

33099213861_34b0fdff76_h.jpg

 

33099217621_0f62277c3f_h.jpg

 

32844167730_a9a1c66cab_h.jpg

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Boomer & Bob,

The rudder detail pics are great. Thanks for that. AP bracket and opening nicely detailed. Are the brackets on the transom each side of the rudder for removable davits?

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The photos show Steve and Jarod dry fitting the cap rail. The cap won't go on for good until after the hull is painted. Steve usually does computer 3D work and runs the CNC machine but he is also a master wood worker and he really been enjoying doing the cap rail.

 

The round, white bumps you see sticking out of the cap rail are the bases for the stanchions. These are G10 rods that go down into tubes that are bonded to the hull. The stanchion will slide over the rods.

 

The stove you see was custom made by the yard and is a combo micro wave with oven with an induction cook top. Neil, the guy with goatee and grey shirt, designed the stove. It was a client request.

The guy in the white jump suit talking to Andrew is Robert Flowerman, aka Mr. Flowers. He was the crew for Commodore Tompkins when he sailed his half broken boat back from Hawaii recently. There is very little that Robert has nor done on a sailboat. He's quiet but when he says something I listen.

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Robert reminded me it was Flowerman - not Flowers - like about three times. Then he was adamant that I make sure everyone know. I said, sure thing Mr. Flowers.

 

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Wick:

No, those brackets are for the Watt and Sea generators. Regardless of tack or heel angle we will have at least one of them in the water.

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Boomer & Bob,

The rudder detail pics are great. Thanks for that. AP bracket and opening nicely detailed. Are the brackets on the transom each side of the rudder for removable davits?

They're for water chargers. I asked earlier.

 

Yowza! What amazing craftsmanship. Tnx for the pics, boomer.

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Wick:

No, those brackets are for the Watt and Sea generators. Regardless of tack or heel angle we will have at least one of them in the water.

Since they were chosen over solar panels or wind generators, I assume Mr. Mystery plans for the boats to be underway fairly regularly?

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Your all welcome. It's been two months since I've been up there. Haven't gone up since December 29 because it's either been freezing or snowing, which is kind of unusual in the NW, since we usually have a week of freezing followed by a week of rain. After 40+ years of commuting, I don't drive when it's freezing or snowing, unless we need something from the store, but with a large pantry, freezers and a root cellar that hardly happens anymore...and when it does, my wife usually takes care of it. I put snow tires with studs on one of her vehicles every winter, just for such conditions. Other then going down to check the boats, or go sailing or racing, I'm a home body in the winter.

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Kocher:

The idea behind the design and build is for the boats to be at sea for extended periods of time.

Def the impression im getting. BTW, love those bowsprit details. Appears that there's two Windlasses?

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Thank you Boomer for the excellent pics and Bob for the detailed info. It's really great to see the boats coming together.

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Really looking good! I like the cap rail detail of caulking the joints instead of gluing them. It looks great, adds another layer of detail, and it's more durable.

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Sled:

When I asked Robert about his trip with Commodore he just shrugged his shoulders and said, "Well, yeah," or something that succinct. That was it. He can be very funny.

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A lot has changed since the last time I was there.

Great pictures Boomer.

 

Bob

I have wondered about the AP bracket on the rudder. Is it also CF?

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he just shrugged his shoulders and said, "Well, yeah," or something that succinct.

Yeah... I spent several days in Cabo tied next to the boat he was running, both of us getting the boats (a SC-70 for him, one of the Pendragons for me) ready for the delivery back.

 

I thought I knew what I was doing. I mean, to that point I probably had 30-40k delivery miles in my logbook. But a few days watching him, pulling out of him *why* he was doing things a certain way... I realized that in comparison I pretty much knew nuthin'. Learned a *ton* from him, mostly by osmosis because, as you say, he doesn't talk much. The guy should write a book.

 

As an aside, that's where I met the Corenmans. Heart of Gold was tied up on the other side, they were on the outbound leg of their grand adventure, IIRC. Great people.

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I thought I'd do an interior for the PH CF cutter based on the layout of the Baba 40 PH version. That layout works great. Just doing it for shits and giggles I did not have a client so I just drew what I would like.

This is my idea of having fun. I like to be productive.

 

BP%20PH%20Interior_zpsthlrku4x.jpg

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^^^ that's gorgeous.

 

can I get one of those, but with Night Runner's underbody? Maybe around 24,000 displacement?

 

I have a trade-in we can discuss <grin>

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With a more NIGHT RUNNER-ish hull form we would lose cabin sole. I think you would need to add about 4' of LOA. But as long as we are dreaming,,,why not?

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As long as we're dreaming ...my dream boat needs shoal draft.

The pilot house allows the cabin sole to be raised ...and that gets me enough room for the centerboard and (higher) ballast. LOVE IT! :)

I plan to win the Power Ball this weekend, so if you want to get started working it up now.... :D

(...This draws 4'- 6" BU - which is 6" more than "max-ideal", but I'd happily "suffer" along with it. )

gallery_75266_1131_55725.jpg

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Tom:

I love it! It looks perfect to my eye. I might change the planform of the rudder a wee bit.

 

I also really like how you sharpened up my drawing in your post.

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Tom, you could also do a vertical style centreboard and run the case up to the level of the pilothose table.

 

Any thoughts on double boards, so you could adjust the balance of the boat for self steering, like the old Krogen 38?

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I don't need no stinkin' balance adjustment!

 

Here Olaf, adjust this!

 

I do think we could do a vertical daggerboard and run it up to the seat height of the dinette and capture it in that forward leg maybe have it extend a bit into the port screaming chamber.

 

I'll check some heights this weekend.

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Specific question: In the hypothetical pilot house interior, what is the interaction between the dining couch area and the berth forward of it? Is there some over-under thing happening, or do you just let that berth curve back in the corner to push pillows into?

 

Edit: I zoomed in and saw a continuous outline for the berth. I still can't tell if it is above or below.

 

Generic question: What is the tradition of that bow shadow I see in a lot of your drawings? Is that something all designers do, and does it have a standard shape to help with some aspect of visualization?

 

Thanks for all the process sharing!

 

Cheers

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Wiser:

Yes, you are seeing that overhang correctly. I did it on the Baba 40 PH model and it hangs well above the galley counter (he said confidently). If I can make it work on the Baba I can make it work here. But truth be told, I have not done any inboard profiles the check that stuff. I'm just mucking around at this stage. I can do it. Just takes time and effort and lots of deleting.

 

By "bow shadow" do you mean the way I extend the hull profile below the dwl? If so then my answer is, I just do it because I think it makes for a more believable image.

If you mean that dotted area below the bootstripe, that is to indicate bottom paint and again, help make the image more palpable.

It's just a drafting technique.

Do you like it or do you find it distracting?

 

Some designers cut the profile off clean at the DWL. I don't think boats look like that. I use 2D tricks to try an infuse the image with some sense of realism. I'm pretty darn good at it although who gives a shit anymore now that we can have Rasper pump out fantastic 3D images? I'm getting to be that last Brontosaurus, Bronting along looking for a leaf to eat and not knowing the leaf went extinct two weeks ago.

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Tom, you could also do a vertical style centreboard and run the case up to the level of the pilothose table.

 

Any thoughts on double boards, so you could adjust the balance of the boat for self steering, like the old Krogen 38?

 

I do not like dagger boards for the kind of cruising I enjoy.

I prefer to have a "jack knife" centerboard that drags along the bottom and calmly swings aft as I begin to run aground - rather than have the boat come to a crashing stop and risk breaking things.

Yes, a daggerboard has less drag, but a centerboard is more forgiving of groundings - and typically less impactful on the interior arrangement.

 

If you get the position of the centerboard correct (...generally farther aft than most people think), you can avoid having two centerboards, Merely playing the angle of the single board can be enough to balance the boat out.

My Morgan 30 (single board) can readily self-steer with the wind forward of the beam in most conditions.

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I agree Tom. I like the options of a centerboard. I also agree with having it farther aft than you might expect. A fixed keel is restricted by ballast location and in many cases can't be as far aft as the designer would want.

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Thanks Bob. Can you clarify if the berth is above or below?

 

As for the dotted area below the boot stripe, what if it ran the length of the hull and produced a curve on the bottom that conveyed some information about the curvature of the hull? Like a 3D render shadow/reflection from a line light source.

 

Cheers

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Wiser:

The double berth in the screaming chamber is tucked under the forward leg of the dinette settee. It's a bit hard to picture.

Was that your question?

 

If you were sitting on the forward leg of the dinette your butt would be right over the head of someone sleeping in the screaming chamber.

 

Ahhhhh,,,,well,I see what you are getting at with the curvature of that line. I can see it working if it complied with a certain buttock line. But I let my fancy run free and do what whim tells me to do in order top create a pleasant image. I don't like rules. I just play with it until my eye is satisfied. Then I change it. Then I change it.

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Yes, thanks! Is it really called the screaming chamber? I almost lost a keyboard!

 

If you try that curve, it would be cool to see. Perhaps a Rasper thing?

 

Actually, you are already providing some information like that thru the pilothouse window shading.

 

Cheers

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"Wanking along" is now passe'...

 

The new term is "Bronting"!

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As long as we're dreaming ...my dream boat needs shoal draft.

The pilot house allows the cabin sole to be raised ...and that gets me enough room for the centerboard and (higher) ballast. LOVE IT! :)

I plan to win the Power Ball this weekend, so if you want to get started working it up now.... :D

(...This draws 4'- 6" BU - which is 6" more than "max-ideal", but I'd happily "suffer" along with it. )

gallery_75266_1131_55725.jpg

Nice job, Tom. Good eye.