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Happy Jack

YAGT Common Sense Gun Laws

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It actually meant trained and equipped to fight back then, so would include things like using a common size of ammunition, recognizing a common command structure, carrying basic supplies in addition to ammo.

 

 

+1. we need a well regulated militia. Training, training, training, regulated, regulated, regulated. Too bad its been perverted into "shall not be infringed".

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300 year old unloaded flintlock pistol? Yep, that's a felony. Ten years.

 

Happy Jack, you're looking for common sense gun laws? Good luck.

 

Let me see if I understand your positions. Not trying to read you mind just your words.

 

  1. You prefer the growing set of sometimes ridiculous gun laws rather than their repeal and substitution with more common sense ones that actually try to preserve ownership rights.
  2. You prefer to retain an ambiguous 2nd amendment rather than amending it to remove any ambiguity.

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300 year old unloaded flintlock pistol? Yep, that's a felony. Ten years.

 

Happy Jack, you're looking for common sense gun laws? Good luck.

 

Let me see if I understand your positions. Not trying to read you mind just your words.

 

  1. You prefer the growing set of sometimes ridiculous gun laws rather than their repeal and substitution with more common sense ones that actually try to preserve ownership rights.
  2. You prefer to retain an ambiguous 2nd amendment rather than amending it to remove any ambiguity.

 

 

Politicians will never stop making more, often ridiculous, laws. Even if we could somehow remove them all in one grand bargain, they would start writing new ones the very next day. We have a very clear unambiguous state preemption law here, and yet still politicians in various municipalities continued to write ridiculous and illegal laws. Further, we all have our own ideas about what is ridiculous. I thought your original suggestion was ridiculous, Jocal thinks the preemption law here, which I am a big fan of, is ridiculous. I am not at all willing to give up an existing defined right for the hope that my definitions of ridiculous and common sense win out.

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300 year old unloaded flintlock pistol? Yep, that's a felony. Ten years.

 

Happy Jack, you're looking for common sense gun laws? Good luck.

 

Let me see if I understand your positions. Not trying to read you mind just your words.

 

  1. You prefer the growing set of sometimes ridiculous gun laws rather than their repeal and substitution with more common sense ones that actually try to preserve ownership rights.
  2. You prefer to retain an ambiguous 2nd amendment rather than amending it to remove any ambiguity.

 

 

No, I would summarize my positions this way:

 

1. People who think an Airsoft is an assault weapon and a felony conviction is a good answer to a teacher who owns an old, unloaded relic are NEVER going to agree to any reasonable substitution. I prefer to concentrate on repealing their nonsense and substituting nothing in its place.

 

2. I haven't mentioned amending the second amendment and didn't know we were talking about that subject. I do not suffer from the delusion that ambiguity can be removed through amendment. We're still trying to figure out what the first amendment means and it seems clear enough. I see no problem following the same path. Over the years, we'll figure out whether the second amendment applies outside the home, whether it applies to everyone or just those who can show a special need, whether it covers Airsoft guns or other mean-looking rifles, etc. I can wait.

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Let me take a stab a rewriting the second amendment. I'm sure it will have flaws and you can choose whether to civilly suggest improvements or you can be a shit and regurgitate your tired cliched vomitus .

 

 

The source of all liberty is ultimately the willingness and ability of the oppressed to fight for and defend their freedom. To that end, the right of citizens who have attained the minimum age of 16 (sixteen) to possess, own, trade, manufacture, bear, carry and use Arms for any legal purpose shall not be infringed by any law with the following enumerated exceptions.

 

  1. Congress by a two third's majority vote may change the minimum age requirement. By the same process Congress may define classes of weapons and establish a minimum age requirement specific to that class. In no case shall any minimum age exceed 27 (twenty-seven) years old. Nothing in this amendment shall prohibit the legal use of arms by a citizen under the minimum age while directly supervised by someone of legal age.
    (authors note: 16 and 27 are just suggestions don't go apeshit and focus on just the numbers Tom)
  2. Nuclear weapons, biological weapons and chemical weapons are not protected by this amendment and may be regulated by legislation.
  3. Arms that are prohibited by International treaties, that the United States is a signatory to, are not protected by this amendment and may be regulated by legislation.
  4. The rights granted by this amendment can be revoked if a person is convicted of a violent crime or other serious felony as defined in law.
  5. The rights granted by this amendment can be suspended while a person is mentally incompetent as determined by a court or other competent authority.
  6. The rights granted by this amendment can be suspended while a person is under criminal indictment or charged with a crime.
  7. The rights granted by this amendment can be suspended by an officer of the law with probable cause and any arms present may be secured by the officer. The suspension must end within 72 hours unless a criminal charge or indictment is rendered and any secured arms returned without undue delay.
  8. Any person who has their rights under this amendment revoked or suspended must without undue delay surrender any and all arms they own or possess to an agent of their choosing. Said agent can store or dispose of these arms as directed by the owner. Any proceeds from the disposal of any arms is retained by the owner of the arms. If the arms are retained in storage they must be returned to the owner when that owner's rights are no longer revoked or suspended. The agent may charge an agreed upon fee for their service.
  9. Every State or local jurisdiction must allow citizens in legal possession of legal arms to transit unmolested through their jurisdiction. Such transit to include stops and detours common to tourist travel. Such jurisdictions may however require arms transiting their jurisdiction to be secured in cases appropriate to transport and in an unloaded or non functional state.
    Deleted: redundant and covered by the basic amendment.
  10. Historic or collectable arms not protected by this amendment may still be owned and possessed if rendered inoperable
  11. Congress may legislate that the mere possession of any arms on your person while committing a felony is a federal crime and if the crime results in any life threatening injury or death, from any cause, is a federal capital crime.
  12. States may reasonably regulate but not prohibit the carrying of arms on your person for self defense.

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I like this new jack. 12 is a bit ambiguous, and 2 doesn't reference explosives. But a good start.

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Let me take a stab a rewriting the second amendment. I'm sure it will have flaws and you can choose whether to civilly suggest improvements or you can be a shit and regurgitate your tired cliched vomitus .

 

 

The source of all liberty is ultimately the willingness and ability of the oppressed to fight for and defend their freedom. To that end, the right of citizens who have attained the minimum age of 16 (sixteen) to possess, own, trade, manufacture, bear, carry and use Arms for any legal purpose shall not be infringed by any law with the following enumerated exceptions.

 

  1. Congress by a two third's majority vote may change the minimum age requirement. By the same process Congress may define classes of weapons and establish a minimum age requirement specific to that class. In no case shall any minimum age exceed 27 (twenty-seven) years old. Nothing in this amendment shall prohibit the legal use of arms by a citizen under the minimum age while directly supervised by someone of legal age.

    (authors note: 16 and 27 are just suggestions don't go apeshit and focus on just the numbers Tom)

  2. Nuclear weapons, biological weapons and chemical weapons are not protected by this amendment and may be regulated by legislation.
  3. Arms that are prohibited by International treaties, that the United States is a signatory to, are not protected by this amendment and may be regulated by legislation.
  4. The rights granted by this amendment can be revoked if a person is convicted of a violent crime or other serious felony as defined in law.
  5. The rights granted by this amendment can be suspended while a person is mentally incompetent as determined by a court or other competent authority.
  6. The rights granted by this amendment can be suspended while a person is under criminal indictment or charged with a crime.
  7. The rights granted by this amendment can be suspended by an officer of the law with probable cause and any arms present may be secured by the officer. The suspension must end within 72 hours unless a criminal charge or indictment is rendered and any secured arms returned without undue delay.
  8. Any person who has their rights under this amendment revoked or suspended must without undue delay surrender any and all arms they own or possess to an agent of their choosing. Said agent can store or dispose of these arms as directed by the owner. Any proceeds from the disposal of any arms is retained by the owner of the arms. If the arms are retained in storage they must be returned to the owner when that owner's rights are no longer revoked or suspended. The agent may charge an agreed upon fee for their service.
  9. Every State or local jurisdiction must allow citizens in legal possession of legal arms to transit unmolested through their jurisdiction. Such transit to include stops and detours common to tourist travel. Such jurisdictions may however require arms transiting their jurisdiction to be secured in cases appropriate to transport and in an unloaded or non functional state.
  10. Historic or collectable arms not protected by this amendment may still be owned and possessed if rendered inoperable
  11. Congress may legislate that the mere possession of any arms on your person while committing a felony is a federal crime and if the crime results in any life threatening injury or death, from any cause, is a federal capital crime.
  12. States may reasonably regulate but not prohibit the carrying of arms on your person for self defense.

 

 

That sounds like it was culled from one of Bloomberg's wet dreams.

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Go ahead and waste time on an exercise in futility. The 2nd is not going to change. Shit, we couldn't even get 38 states to agree to guarantee women get equal rights.

 

I put this "proposal" of HJ's in the same trashcan as the Flag Desecration Amendment and Federal Marriage Amendment. Duds, all of them.

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Go ahead and waste time on an exercise in futility. The 2nd is not going to change. Shit, we couldn't even get 38 states to agree to guarantee women get equal rights.

 

I put this "proposal" of HJ's in the same trashcan as the Flag Desecration Amendment and Federal Marriage Amendment. Duds, all of them.

Agreed, however I do give Jack some props for seeing the problems with the 2nd and wants to proactively correct them instead of seeing it being perverted by a future anti-gun supreme court and lose his precious.

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Let me take a stab a rewriting the second amendment. I'm sure it will have flaws and you can choose whether to civilly suggest improvements or you can be a shit and regurgitate your tired cliched vomitus .

 

 

The source of all liberty is ultimately the willingness and ability of the oppressed to fight for and defend their freedom. To that end, the right of citizens who have attained the minimum age of 16 (sixteen) to possess, own, trade, manufacture, bear, carry and use Arms for any legal purpose shall not be infringed by any law with the following enumerated exceptions.

 

  1. Congress by a two third's majority vote may change the minimum age requirement. By the same process Congress may define classes of weapons and establish a minimum age requirement specific to that class. In no case shall any minimum age exceed 27 (twenty-seven) years old. Nothing in this amendment shall prohibit the legal use of arms by a citizen under the minimum age while directly supervised by someone of legal age.

    (authors note: 16 and 27 are just suggestions don't go apeshit and focus on just the numbers Tom)

  2. Nuclear weapons, biological weapons and chemical weapons are not protected by this amendment and may be regulated by legislation.
  3. Arms that are prohibited by International treaties, that the United States is a signatory to, are not protected by this amendment and may be regulated by legislation.
  4. The rights granted by this amendment can be revoked if a person is convicted of a violent crime or other serious felony as defined in law.
  5. The rights granted by this amendment can be suspended while a person is mentally incompetent as determined by a court or other competent authority.
  6. The rights granted by this amendment can be suspended while a person is under criminal indictment or charged with a crime.
  7. The rights granted by this amendment can be suspended by an officer of the law with probable cause and any arms present may be secured by the officer. The suspension must end within 72 hours unless a criminal charge or indictment is rendered and any secured arms returned without undue delay.
  8. Any person who has their rights under this amendment revoked or suspended must without undue delay surrender any and all arms they own or possess to an agent of their choosing. Said agent can store or dispose of these arms as directed by the owner. Any proceeds from the disposal of any arms is retained by the owner of the arms. If the arms are retained in storage they must be returned to the owner when that owner's rights are no longer revoked or suspended. The agent may charge an agreed upon fee for their service.
  9. Every State or local jurisdiction must allow citizens in legal possession of legal arms to transit unmolested through their jurisdiction. Such transit to include stops and detours common to tourist travel. Such jurisdictions may however require arms transiting their jurisdiction to be secured in cases appropriate to transport and in an unloaded or non functional state.

    Deleted: redundant and covered by the basic amendment.

  10. Historic or collectable arms not protected by this amendment may still be owned and possessed if rendered inoperable
  11. Congress may legislate that the mere possession of any arms on your person while committing a felony is a federal crime and if the crime results in any life threatening injury or death, from any cause, is a federal capital crime.
  12. States may reasonably regulate but not prohibit the carrying of arms on your person for self defense.

 

 

Does the first amendment grant us rights of free expression and association, or does it protect those rights?

 

Does the fourth grant us a right to be free from unreasonable searches, or does it protect that right?

 

#12 leaves us with a question we already face: is requiring a "good and substantial reason" a reasonable regulation on the (right/privilege) to carry arms. (Pick right or privilege based on your answers to the above two questions.) I see no advantage to adopting your proposed amendment and it makes me a bit nervous that Ed likes it.

 

Sorry if that seems like cliched vomitus to you. Frankly, with detractors like you, Sol, and jocal on this forum, I'm comfortable with people knowing me by my enemies.

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Frankly, with detractors like you, Sol, and jocal on this forum, I'm comfortable with people knowing me by my enemies.

 

 

 

Be careful with that one. As you support your supporters, Tom, you have been using bunk data around here.

 

#359 Myths of Self-Defense Thread

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 02:56 AM

The whole thing looks designed to confuse, even if that was not the intent. No definitions available for the columns you have used, that's not good Tom.

I am concerned that the Murder Rate and Violent Crime figures could include all methods of murder and crime, that would not make sense.

Looks to me like you are posting statistics with poor foundation. Something you have cobbled together.

P,S. And Ignore the gun ownership rates? Isn't that what this is all about?

Pasted from <http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=163210&page=4>

 

 

Your popularity is well established, Tom Ray. Good for you, it's nice to have you on the forums.

But your positions include self-serving half-truths. And you repeat dangerous, unsourced mis-statements.

 

HUBRIS%20and%20missing%20gun%20research_

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blah blah blah

 

 

A Gun SHOOTER is an agent in a gunshot, which is a public health incident of measurably epidemic numbers.

 

 

Beginning in the late 1960s, a comprehensive approach was adopted based largely on the work of William Haddon, who developed a model for the systematic exploration of causation and countermeasures based on the epidemiological triangle of host, agent, and environment in the pre-event, event, and post-event phases (Haddon, 1967, 1968, 1980). Such strategies are designed to interrupt the connection among three essential elements:

(1) the “agent” (the source of injury [weapon or perpetrator]),

(2) the “host” (the injured person), and

(3) the “environment” (the conditions under which the injury occurred).

 

 

 

 

(see red above - why the "or"???) The problem, jo jo, is that ALL of your fucking studies focus on the gun as the agent and not the perpetrator as the agent. Bad start. The APA (Psychologists) ignore guns. Criminologists are not gun fucused, per se. Educators are not focused on people, n ot guns. The problem with the epidemiology approach in thinking of the gun as a disease agent no no no. That was vever said. Nor is disease applicable in the succesful work with auto safety. is that other diseases other diseases? where's the first one? STRAW MAN. are not typically "good". Ebola doesn't have a self-defense or recreational aspect to it along with the ability to kill. So epidemiologists used to working with disease mechanisms seem to treat guns the same way - that that they are used only for the mechanism under review in the study. i.e. death. A bit of a flawed mindset, IMHO. Not you discipline, is it?

 

I actually agree with the public health approach to the issue of crime and violence prevention. AS LONG AS they include and primarily focus on the perpetrator as the agent and not the implement. Good for you, bud, but it's not up to you. Look at the implement if you want as well.... but you know damn well the answer is going to be ordinary handguns and you are not going to like it one bit. But if they focus on the gun only and not the shooter - then this is a non-starter for me.

 

 

 

Jeff, you are not facing the music here. Have you read the Heller decision?

 

The Supreme Court, in its controlling 2008 decision, District of Columbia v. Heller, concluded that Second Amendment rights are not unlimited with regard to who may possess firearms, what kinds of firearms they may possess, or where they may possess them (29). The Court made clear that the Second Amendment should not be understood as conferring a “right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose”; identified a nonexhaustive list of “presumptively lawful regulatory measures”; and noted that the Second Amendment is consistent with laws banning “dangerous and unusual weapons” not in common use, such as firearms that are most typically used by the military (29).

 

Further, after Heller, more than 900 court decisions have upheld a wide variety of regulations to reduce gun violence (30), and only a few rulings have struck down certain types of firearm laws (3132). No ruling of the Supreme Court (or any other court, for that matter) calls into question any of the specific proposals that we recommend.

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