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      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

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Panoramix

The cruising boats that make you dream thread...

2,119 posts in this topic

It seems odd for me to say it but there are so many great older boats out there at very attractive prices a new custom boat does not make sense to me. Unless I am designing it.

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It seems odd for me to say it but there are so many great older boats out there at very attractive prices a new custom boat does not make sense to me. Unless I am designing it.

 

Bob, Phil Bolger once commented that people that maintained classic boats in bristol condition (works of art I think he called them), should get a tax break since we all benefit from the resulting beauty. For himself, work boat finish was sufficient. Perhaps those that commission custom builds fall into the former category.

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It seems odd for me to say it but there are so many great older boats out there at very attractive prices a new custom boat does not make sense to me. Unless I am designing it.

 

TaDaaa!

 

Very good. I agree completely. There's a lot of old boats that need us out there. I know I'm being anthropomorphic but I can't help it. We bought a boat back recently because it was being neglected, and literally couldn't stand to watch it happen.

 

Every new boat built means another old boat being rejected.

 

As they say in Handel's Messiah: "Rejected. Despiséd. Despiséd and rejected."

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There are a thousand good reasons to go with an existing great older boat that's out there and modifying it to suit your needs and requirements. That said, I agree with Joli, that used boats bring their own issues. I went from a new J/109 to a (very) used S2 9.1 (had to put 3 kids thru college). I loved both boats, but to have brought the S2 up to level of the J/109 would have cost 10's of thousands of dollars you'll never recover when trying to sell.

 

Sometimes a custom is because there is nothing out there that fits your desires...and you can afford to pay it, no matter the price delta. For me, the perfect boat would be something like a J/97, but I hate the euro interior. Hate it. I'd also want a little more sail area on it. I also like some overhang at the bow and some shape at the transom (I like mid 80's IOR shapes, what can I say?) and the J/97 doesn't have much in the way of of bow overhang or transom shape. I liked the removable transom box the 109 had, the 97 doesn't come with one. I like pilot berths, and the 97 doesn't have them, etc, etc...

 

So if I had the money, I'd go custom to get that exact boat. I don't, so I'll settle on something else, something close that ticks as many of those boxes as possible. A totally restored S2 9.1, with a J/boats sprit, and a sail drive, and updated foils comes close...But you'd have to design a new rig to get non overlapping sailplan with high enough SA/Disp...etc, etc.

 

A used J/109 comes really close, but then I'm paying for a 35 footer with bigger sails, not a 32 footer...

 

There are always going to be trades and compromises with a production boat.

 

(Yes, there are trades wit;h a custom boat too)

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I wonder what you are trying to get out of a custom boat that is so different?

A unique design: how many FRANCIS LEE's do you see out there? I looked for four years all over the world and could not find one.

 

Long, narrow, lightweight, deep draft, tiller steered, double ended, strip plank construction of a very simple daysailer with very few extras, designed for the pure joy of sailing.

 

And then there is the fun and satisfaction of being heavily involved in the design and build.

 

Certainly not for everyone, but it was right for me and I am delighted with the result.

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Tiffany Jane is similar, but much smaller. They sell for a pretty low price, but unfortunately there's not many of them.

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TIFFANY JANE is similar in that it has points on both end. That's about it. The hull forms are very different.

TIFFANY JANE's hull shape represents everything I was trying to avoid in FRANKIE.

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TIFFANY JANE is similar in that it has points on both end. That's about it. The hull forms are very different.

TIFFANY JANE's hull shape represents everything I was trying to avoid in FRANKIE.

 

 

While I was long attracted to Tiffany Jane...

 

the pics of FL's wake (or lack thereof) demonstrate that your solution was truly inspired!

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Kocher:

I knew exactly what you meant and I agree with you. I was just giving you some shite.

 

TJ is quite a bit finer in the ends than Frankie although their midsection are quite similar.

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One option is to be patient and wait for that boat that meets your needs and is almost new. Like cars, a few year old boat should sell well below it's replacement value. In my case I had a good old boat to sail and enjoy while I watched the market for a year or two. A good broker might have shortened that time, but I was not in a hurry. The new to me boat was three years old fitted out with sails, full canvas, ground tackle, everything I wanted accept heat. The spinnaker had never been taken out of the bag and it had 34 hours on the motor when purchased for 1/2 of new.

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I would hope that FL would be a modern refinement on TJ, as it was designed 30 years later. Just as TJ was a modern refinement of Rozinante, being designed 30 years afterwards. All 3 are great boats, and I think it's cool that the long, narrow, easily-driven boats still have an appreciative following. Seems to be among more experienced sailors though...

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Thanks Designers (and cognoscenti) for the thoughts on custom v production costs.

I was hoping the difference was going to be closer to ~25% rather than ~70% more.

 

So what to do...

A. Recalibrate to smaller/simpler custom

B. Learn to love existing production designs

C. Refit a second hand something to my preferences

D. Work harder/save longer

 

D sucks!

 

 

HFC,

 

Think you are mixing two pretty different goals together. Going cruising and building a boat are two very different itches to scratch.

 

If going cruising is your goal, then I would go with "C" and nix the refit part. Figure out a budget for a boat that will let you go with zero debt and spend a year looking for a boat, budget for traveling and come up with a minimum number of boats that meet your criteria before you commit, remember a wife or partner has "it's fucking ugly" veto power even if you think it's perfect. The bottom line is there are so many boats out there that people have spent fortunes setting up for long distance cruising that you will never be money ahead buying a bare boat and doing the same. People often work through the process of the cruising itch on a foundation of perceptions of their own experiances and books, forums etc. Once they get out and do it it's not always the same. People change their goals change etc. This is esspecially true when doing it with a family or partner. After a couple laps around if thats the life for you then you can move on to the builing itch, either a full retrofit of a hull you like or a custom build.

 

Like anything else in life there is evolution of knowledge in both process. We outfitted our first boat with little or no expiriance based mostly on books, alot changed once we got out on the water. I had the build a boat itch in a big way and we settled on a full refit. Starting out not knowing shit about boat building, now knowing a tiny bit more, I look back and see every fuck up I did in the process. Still functional and sound but I just didn't know any better at that point in the process. The wife has stated in no uncertain terms that the boat building itch has been scratched all its going to get......some day when it's just the two of us we might re-visit for something smaller.......

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The best deal is almost always going to be a used boat that's had little use since a recent refit, if it's in the size range and has deck/interior arrangements you desire.

The worst deal is buying a bigger boat than you need because the price is right, and then facing a major refit....particularly if there's a lot of exterior brightwork to restore and maintain. You'll be continually underwater on time and financial resources.

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The best deal is almost always going to be a used boat that's had little use since a recent refit, if it's in the size range and has deck/interior arrangements you desire.

The worst deal is buying a bigger boat than you need because the price is right, and then facing a major refit....particularly if there's a lot of exterior brightwork to restore and maintain. You'll be continually underwater on time and financial resources.

 

A boat like that will be, not an albatross round your neck, but a gannet under your arm demanding constant feeding: "time!!!... Money!!!!.. Time!!!!.... Money!!!..."

 

Don't ask me how I know.

 

But children are like that, and they're often considered worth it.

 

Find a boat where someone else has lost all the money. Not that I'm a natural bottom-feeder or anything . . .

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One possibility that hasn't been mentioned is to buy an equipped boat in one of the crossroads places or first stop after a long crossing places where dream cruises end after reality rears its ugly head. Places like Panama, Gibraltar, Hawaii and so forth have long standing reps as places where offshore equipped boats can be had cheap because someone aboard had had enough.

 

Looks like San Carlos might be one as well. That may be simply due to the long slog back to Cali but it sure looks like a lot of serious boats are on the block there.

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Another option is a post IOR race boat with little interior.

 

They sell for peanuts.

 

You generally get a fast strong boat, a van full of sails and gear, and can fit the interior put the way you want.

 

The challenge is to find one with a good cruising cockpit.

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One possibility that hasn't been mentioned is to buy an equipped boat in one of the crossroads places or first stop after a long crossing places where dream cruises end after reality rears its ugly head. Places like Panama, Gibraltar, Hawaii and so forth have long standing reps as places where offshore equipped boats can be had cheap because someone aboard had had enough.

 

Looks like San Carlos might be one as well. That may be simply due to the long slog back to Cali but it sure looks like a lot of serious boats are on the block there.

 

Thats sort of where I was going with the take a year and budget for travel, when we were in MX there were some really nice boats set up for jumping off that were for sale. Health issues money issues etc. A good friend of ours set up a boat with just about everything and its been parked in Panama for quite a while. There were a bunch of really nice Kelly Petersons fully decked out in PV when we left. Intitially everyone wants to re-coup everything they put into it, but after a year of moorage fee's the cost of delivery or shipping it back to wherever home might be, some great deals can be had. I saw a HR 43 that I really liked but was overruled.

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I would hope that FL would be a modern refinement on TJ, as it was designed 30 years later. Just as TJ was a modern refinement of Rozinante, being designed 30 years afterwards. All 3 are great boats, and I think it's cool that the long, narrow, easily-driven boats still have an appreciative following. Seems to be among more experienced sailors though...

 

And also...

 

510-2a.png

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i always liked the swan 65's as very cool cruising yachts. just sexyswan-65-peak.jpg

 

swan_65_3_cabins_big_margaux---swan--mai

I've always had a soft spot for these. I think the infatuation started many many years ago when I went to see a film about one of the first Whitbread races, where Sayula II, a Swan 65 won. They still look great today.

 

97694999_FP6T6N_AJAXNETPHOTO_1974_SOLENT

 

Quite a departure from the uber wide transoms of today's skimming dishes.

 

 

Josef Stalin was reputed to have responded to suggestions that his Soviet military machine sacrificed quality to quantity with "Quantity has a quality all its own".

 

Similar case can be made that length improves aesthetics of any boat design. Longer just looks better, all other things being equal.

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I think Kinardo has a point.

 

When I was in the early stages of John Newton's 46'er John asked me if it would be OK if Jerry Driscoll took a look at the drawings.. I was a Driscol fan so I said OK.

 

Then Jerry called me and asked me if I minded if he played with the design. I said no, but I was concerned. I asked him what he was going to do. He said, "I'm going to make it look better." Now I was pissed off. I said, "And how are you going t do that?" Jerry said, "I'm going to make it 6' longer."

And he did.

And it looked better.

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Actually the only existing vessel I made a real try for was Bruce King's "Nantucket Splinter" also known as "Marin" and "Fun". (Not sure of her current name.) She was about 40' and I wasn't sure I wanted to go that small. (TJ is 34'.)

 

I made an offer on her and her then owner was not at all helpful. He was asking $99k so I offered $75k as a start and all it did was piss him off and he raised the price to $125k. The broker and I were mystified as to what he was doing as I was a very serious buyer.

 

I looked at a number of other boats, but NS was the only boat I actually tried to buy.

 

(If C. Raymond Hunt had actually built the 1010 I would have been very interested in her. Likewise if Garden's Oceanus had still been around I would have been very interested in her also. But neither boat existed when I was seriously looking.)

 

As it turns out building FL was the right solution, so it was fortunate I was unable to find an existing vessel to buy.

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I'm very glad you did get FL designed and built, so we can all admire her.

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Bruce King also designed a retro looking ketch with short sprit and cold molded construction, "Unicorn" that was breathtaking to watch sailing into an anchorage. When I first saw her she had been rescued from the bottom off the cost of Baja and the Reynolds family had spent the entire insurance "totaled" settlement and then some getting her back on the water but wow, was she ever worth it. The design was supposedly based on my beloved old Ericson 46 but I could never see the resemblance. I have no idea where she is now but I fervently hope the owner is treating her as she deserves. Not really a cruising boat and too small for our needs but I would have a hard time saying "no" to such a boat if she were available at a price I could afford.

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Bruce King also designed a retro looking ketch with short sprit and cold molded construction, "Unicorn" that was breathtaking to watch sailing into an anchorage. When I first saw her she had been rescued from the bottom off the cost of Baja and the Reynolds family had spent the entire insurance "totaled" settlement and then some getting her back on the water but wow, was she ever worth it. The design was supposedly based on my beloved old Ericson 46 but I could never see the resemblance. I have no idea where she is now but I fervently hope the owner is treating her as she deserves. Not really a cruising boat and too small for our needs but I would have a hard time saying "no" to such a boat if she were available at a price I could afford.

Apparently for sale a number of years ago...here's the old CA thread:

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=128852

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One possibility that hasn't been mentioned is to buy an equipped boat in one of the crossroads places or first stop after a long crossing places where dream cruises end after reality rears its ugly head. Places like Panama, Gibraltar, Hawaii and so forth have long standing reps as places where offshore equipped boats can be had cheap because someone aboard had had enough.

 

Looks like San Carlos might be one as well. That may be simply due to the long slog back to Cali but it sure looks like a lot of serious boats are on the block there.

 

My sister lives in San Carlos. They just had a boat donated for auction, Islander 36 that blew over with a hole in its side and broke the mast. I said "Hey, send me the details, I could fix that". I'm an idiot.

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Bruce King also designed a retro looking ketch with short sprit and cold molded construction, "Unicorn" that was breathtaking to watch sailing into an anchorage. When I first saw her she had been rescued from the bottom off the cost of Baja and the Reynolds family had spent the entire insurance "totaled" settlement and then some getting her back on the water but wow, was she ever worth it. The design was supposedly based on my beloved old Ericson 46 but I could never see the resemblance. I have no idea where she is now but I fervently hope the owner is treating her as she deserves. Not really a cruising boat and too small for our needs but I would have a hard time saying "no" to such a boat if she were available at a price I could afford.

 

IIRC Unicorn was Kings personal boat. The author Ference Mate (From a Bare Hull) had a sistership that he kept in the Gulf Islands until a couple of years ago.

 

Spectacularly gorgeous boats. I think the E-46 reference was to the heavily bustled underbody that King was so fond of in the 70's.

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Many years ago (1980's) before we purchased the Aage Nielsen yawl Tioga we looked at that sistership of Bruce King's personal boat.

 

It was a VERY nice vessel in spectacular condition. (I don't remember why we decided not to buy it.)

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Bruce King also designed a retro looking ketch with short sprit and cold molded construction, "Unicorn" that was breathtaking to watch sailing into an anchorage. When I first saw her she had been rescued from the bottom off the cost of Baja and the Reynolds family had spent the entire insurance "totaled" settlement and then some getting her back on the water but wow, was she ever worth it. The design was supposedly based on my beloved old Ericson 46 but I could never see the resemblance. I have no idea where she is now but I fervently hope the owner is treating her as she deserves. Not really a cruising boat and too small for our needs but I would have a hard time saying "no" to such a boat if she were available at a price I could afford.

 

Unicorn was in Pittwater last year, looking good. If you're serious there is a sistership about ready to launch in Hobart. She is a masterpiece built by a true shipwright named Andrew (?) Wardrop over the last 10 or so years. I believe YMT has details.

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Thanks Chaps - really good insights being posted here.

[For context, I grew up with a family-built yacht. Hull was true to design, but it was the custom interior that made it wonderful for the last 30years so far... Well thought out making short-term live aboard easy, and finished to very high quality - and has spoilt me for most production interior approaches. My racing is usually offshore IRC class 0/1 and have had the same logic of attention applied to their deck systems. I tend to back myself fixing and building - until it's really buggered, but then it needed fixing anyway? ;) ]

 

The HFC made a good point: Given the costs, it seems less like a car selection decision, and it sounds more like a house where you can either work with an architect and get what you want for the added cost, or buy off-spec or secondhand and get what someone else wanted and learn to tolerate or renovate it. The bonus of production yachts, is one can usually charter fairly typical examples to get a short term feel.

 

So if one's searching the second hands, does it follow that newer hulls perform better for blue cruisers? If so, is the difference incremental, or have designs really stepped up a notch since a certain (rough) timepoint?

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What's "The HFC"?

 

5911088_20160819063039540_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

 

The observation about boat-hunting at maritime crossroads led me to this very cheery looking Perry boat for sale in the Azores - built in aluminium (chew on that Mr. Swent).

 

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2006/Jachtbouw-Folmer-Perry-60-2999172/Portugal#.V_NT2vArIuU. I wonder if the price is very ambitious?

 

The sale particulars are unique in that they have people in the photos. And people having a good time. Astonishing. Some of that happiness must have rubbed off on the boat, surely.

 

5911088_20160819063106254_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

 

5911088_20160819063139511_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

 

5911088_20160819063124596_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

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there are also 2 canoe stern 8mr's around. this one is angelita (1930)

 

jw_mg_1540.jpg

 

yandy112584.jpg

 

angelitariss.jpg

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IIRC, LFH designed a double-ended 12 Meter in the 30s. I think Clinton Crane may have done one too.

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What's "The HFC"?

 

5911088_20160819063039540_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

 

The observation about boat-hunting at maritime crossroads led me to this very cheery looking Perry boat for sale in the Azores - built in aluminium (chew on that Mr. Swent).

 

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2006/Jachtbouw-Folmer-Perry-60-2999172/Portugal#.V_NT2vArIuU. I wonder if the price is very ambitious?

 

The sale particulars are unique in that they have people in the photos. And people having a good time. Astonishing. Some of that happiness must have rubbed off on the boat, surely.

 

(Snip)

 

HFC is listed under my "interests" and akin to my version of swmbo. I was talking about a crush I had at work whilst sitting on the rail for long offshore races (Beats singing!) and gave them a three word description. The commissioned lads in my crew decided the acronym was better - and it stuck. When fates let me introduce her to them, they ignored her name and said "Hello HFC" and still do so after 8 years of marriage.

 

Lots to like in that bateau rouge - but that starting price for a 10year old is kinda high. If you're in that ballpark, hitting just a bit harder will get you a boundary.

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MARLIN, the red boat, has been cruising full time for over five years. The current owners bought the boat when it was in bad shape and restored it. The layout is unusual but very functional.

I am proud of that design.

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^reading deeper, I can actually see why the price is starting there. She's ticking a lot of big expedition boxes

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IIRC, LFH designed a double-ended 12 Meter in the 30s. I think Clinton Crane may have done one too.

Update (after Google): yes, LFH designed Mitena US-10, a double-ender. It was his only 12M design. Clinton Crane designed Seven Seas, US-9, and Gleam, US-11. Neither were double-ended, though both had lovely counter sterns.

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Bob, I like this settee design and can't remember ever seeing it. Its shape preserves the use of the outboard section as a sea berth but also makes good use of the space as seating for eating given the boat's beam.

 

I don't like the chairs or benches that are sometimes used for the inboard seating.

 

It also preserves some useful floor space in the cabin by having the diagonal shape on the table.

 

Have you used this arrangement in other boats?

 

5911088_20160819063106254_1_XLARGE.jpg

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MARLIN, the red boat, has been cruising full time for over five years. The current owners bought the boat when it was in bad shape and restored it. The layout is unusual but very functional.

I am proud of that design.

 

How could someone let a boat like that get into bad shape?

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I like the way the saloon goes the full beam of the boat - makes it feel much more spacious, and talking of layouts (and I'd love to know what else is unusual about Marlin - she seems a wonderful boat), has no one ever put seaberths on the centreline of the boat, when the boat is wide enough? The motion is so much easier there. our Mahogany Man Cave of a saloon has a central piece of furniture on which all sorts of crap gets piled, which never gets thrown off, even when drawers are falling open and books are flying.

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I like the way the saloon goes the full beam of the boat - makes it feel much more spacious, and talking of layouts (and I'd love to know what else is unusual about Marlin - she seems a wonderful boat), has no one ever put seaberths on the centreline of the boat, when the boat is wide enough? The motion is so much easier there. our Mahogany Man Cave of a saloon has a central piece of furniture on which all sorts of crap gets piled, which never gets thrown off, even when drawers are falling open and books are flying.

My Catalina 50 has a similar salon layout and it's great for living aboard. However, it does sacrifice a lot of potential storage space behind the seatbacks.

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bmiller:

The original owner got sick and was stuck in the Maldives as I recall. He was having a tough time taking care of himself.

 

kdh:

No, that main cabin layout I would consider unique to that design. On the listing link you can see the drawing of the layout.

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MARLIN, the red boat, has been cruising full time for over five years. The current owners bought the boat when it was in bad shape and restored it. The layout is unusual but very functional.

I am proud of that design.

 

How could someone let a boat like that get into bad?

 

 

Often there is no place to have quality work/maintenance done. Analogies are made between boats and cars/houses but when considering maintenance it's not apples to apples. It's very easy to bring the car back to the dealer, they can quickly fix any issue 99% of the time or if you need house repairs the yellow pages/Google provide an abundance of vendors. Boat work? It's tough, where do you go for diesel repair or a/c or fridge or fiberglass repair or rigging repair. Try to find a quality vendor that can repair fiberglass, remove all the gear, sand and prime then finish with a Class A lp? Just finding vendors for this work is a real struggle, who among us hasn't waited a day or two for the vendor to show up?

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MARLIN was my second design for the original owner. By the time we did MARLIN we knew each other quite well. The boat was white originally.

This is a metal boat done right.

stepalah.pic1%20010_zpsoswl2vle.jpg

stepalahpic1003_zpsf32eac2d.jpg

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Does not look revised to me at all. Did you look at the drawing? Nothing is changed. I think the camera lens is distorting the length of things in those shots. Damn camera's and their pesky lenses.

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bmiller:

The original owner got sick and was stuck in the Maldives as I recall. He was having a tough time taking care of himself.

 

kdh:

No, that main cabin layout I would consider unique to that design. On the listing link you can see the drawing of the layout.

 

I hope everything worked out for him.

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Does not look revised to me at all. Did you look at the drawing? Nothing is changed. I think the camera lens is distorting the length of things in those shots. Damn camera's and their pesky lense

 

On the port side there's some shelving been added, but I think you're right and that what I thought was more furniture at the fore left is just a different line of sight. I like the central galley.

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bmiller:

I have not heard from him for some time and I suspect all did not turn out well for him. He was never particularly healthy.

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Nice boats Bob and I like the layout as well. I don't think I've ever seen a reversed galley like this before. But it seems to work well.

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Cross:

Yeah, I think it works quite well. Takes a boat over 50' LOA to make it work though. People talk about the "size" of a boat being related to displ. I understand that. But, when you are doing a layout LOA plays a huge part. I have linear benchmark dimensions in my head for every component and that's where I start. I can do more with additional LOA than I can with additional displ.

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Cross:

Yeah, I think it works quite well. Takes a boat over 50' LOA to make it work though. People talk about the "size" of a boat being related to displ. I understand that. But, when you are doing a layout LOA plays a huge part. I have linear benchmark dimensions in my head for every component and that's where I start. I can do more with additional LOA than I can with additional displ.

Good point, although in smaller sizes a bit of displacement allows the cabin sole to be lower, permitting headroom without lots of freeboard or an excessively tall cabin house. Juggling those numbers is why designers make their money.

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You can juggle those displ elements and make it work but a berth has to be 6.5' long. You need 22" in front of the head so you can sit down etc. I have a tron of these numbers in my head. I may not always adhere to them but they are where I start.

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I liked your story about measuring the head compartment in an airplane to take advantage of the $million$ Boeing spent arriving at the minimum efficient space.

 

Shrewd.

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Bob, I like this settee design and can't remember ever seeing it. Its shape preserves the use of the outboard section as a sea berth but also makes good use of the space as seating for eating given the boat's beam.

 

I don't like the chairs or benches that are sometimes used for the inboard seating.

 

It also preserves some useful floor space in the cabin by having the diagonal shape on the table.

 

Have you used this arrangement in other boats?

 

5911088_20160819063106254_1_XLARGE.jpg

 

The layout is really clever. I like the shared space.

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MARLIN, the red boat, has been cruising full time for over five years. The current owners bought the boat when it was in bad shape and restored it. The layout is unusual but very functional.

I am proud of that design.

 

How could someone let a boat like that get into bad?

Often there is no place to have quality work/maintenance done. Analogies are made between boats and cars/houses but when considering maintenance it's not apples to apples. It's very easy to bring the car back to the dealer, they can quickly fix any issue 99% of the time or if you need house repairs the yellow pages/Google provide an abundance of vendors. Boat work? It's tough, where do you go for diesel repair or a/c or fridge or fiberglass repair or rigging repair. Try to find a quality vendor that can repair fiberglass, remove all the gear, sand and prime then finish with a Class A lp? Just finding vendors for this work is a real struggle, who among us hasn't waited a day or two for the vendor to show up?

CSR Marine in Ballard (Seattle) can do all of that Joli, they are not cheap, but they are top quality.

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You see they've revised the saloon?

 

5911088_20160819063104208_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

 

5911088_20160819063106254_1_XLARGE.jpg&w

 

I assume the lower picture is the as revised one?

There is a a bit more cabinetry work done on the port side, and the setee looks shortened some to make room for some of it. But it looks well done (I can see a new line in the ad copy "work done so well, even the designer can't tell!").

 

Bob really does a nice job on galley's.

It must be fun seeing one of your older boats get used as intended.

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Dilli:

Thanks.

Yes I noticed that most of the cabinetry is not what I drew but that is common. It is typical for the owner to get in the boat when the interior is going in and decide his own arrangement of lockers are drawers. I'm fine with that. There is nothing I can do about it. I encourage owners to mock up the interior so they can make the changes they like.

 

It's not unusual to have clients look at the drawings and nod approval while at the same time not have the ability to really read a drawing. I had one client, a very good sailor, who every time he visited the yard it was a surprise! " I didn't know it was like that!"

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For cruisers with the budget to consider the used Perry-JACHTBOUW listed for approximately $1.1 million or £850,000, I wonder if they would also be considering these used listings and how they'd stack up?

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1995/Mcmullen-%26-Wing-Performance-Cruiser-2969657/San-Diego/CA/United-States

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1997/Koopmans-66-Pilothouse-2993863/Netherlands

 

both have enclosed steering which I would suppose could improve safety through improved cognition under less stressful physical conditions in a storm. Both boats have variable pitch props and appear to be well-equipped for serious expedition work much like the Perry design. With a shallow draft, my guess is that the Koopman's is much more of a motor sailor. By the way, I can't understand for the life me why it has a 6 inch long traveler for the mainsail.

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Thanks Bob! Foxy and I went down earlier yesterday and washed the poo off the boats. Thought about going for a brief sail last night, but thought of a walk on the beach instead; the little guy likes checking out all the smells and meeting other dogs doing likewise. So initially was going to drive out to Point No Point and take the little guy for a walk. However when we came to the intersection at Country Corners, I looked at Foxy who was looking out the window on the passenger side. I said, you wanna go straight to Point No Point, or take a left for Port Townsend, he immediately jumped in my lap and looked left, so Port Townsend it was....

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Driver:

That is the silliest trav I have ever seen.

 

" Here comes a puff,,,,traveler down!"

" Ahhh,,,much better.:

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Thanks Bob! Foxy and I went down earlier yesterday and washed the poo off the boats. Thought about going for a brief sail last night, but thought of a walk on the beach instead; the little guy likes checking out all the smells and meeting other dogs doing likewise. So initially was going to drive out to Point No Point and take the little guy for a walk. However when we came to the intersection at Country Corners, I looked at Foxy who was looking out the window on the passenger side. I said, you wanna go straight to Point No Point, or take a left for Port Townsend, he immediately jumped in my lap and looked left, so Port Townsend it was....

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/11/science/dogs-can-train-us-to-have-a-better-sense-of-smell.html?_r=0

For cruisers with the budget to consider the used Perry-JACHTBOUW listed for approximately $1.1 million or £850,000, I wonder if they would also be considering these used listings and how they'd stack up?

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1995/Mcmullen-%26-Wing-Performance-Cruiser-2969657/San-Diego/CA/United-States

 

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1997/Koopmans-66-Pilothouse-2993863/Netherlands

 

both have enclosed steering which I would suppose could improve safety through improved cognition under less stressful physical conditions in a storm. Both boats have variable pitch props and appear to be well-equipped for serious expedition work much like the Perry design. With a shallow draft, my guess is that the Koopman's is much more of a motor sailor. By the way, I can't understand for the life me why it has a 6 inch long traveler for the mainsail.

 

 

If you use a boat like this for racing PHRF on a hot summer day, can you steer from inside with the AC running?

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Driver:

That is the silliest trav I have ever seen.

 

" Here comes a puff,,,,traveler down!"

" Ahhh,,,much better.:

tee hee. Very good.

 

Yours is nicer all round Bob

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I sailed a 1907 boat of similar style for a couple of decades and have been on quite a few of the other local classics here. Whats different to a modern is you have such a hard time getting the main in with either no or pissy little winches, that you become very reluctant to let the main go, so farkin hard to get them back in.

They tend to be quite stable hulls too so you can often bear away quite a bit with the main sheeted and still have helm control.... say if you have to dip some inconvenient bastard who happens to be on stbd. Even if it is gusty and you do have to dump some main , you wont have a vang so it just dumps air out the leech with twist. Just a different way of sailing , but it works for the style of boat.

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geez , don't tell me I'm a thread killer here too.

 

Something to make up for it ,and might be of interest to you guys. Marionette.

This boat is cool because it must have been a prestige yacht in SF. Transpac an all that. After it sold out of its family ownership there it became a drug runner and was confiscated, fell on hard times. But its construction is pretty cool and quite advanced for wood and the '60's. Cove and bead strip , resorcinol glued on quite massive scantlings. A lot of bronze and no ferrous fasteners etc. Its hull had been showing stress signs due to age and part of the deck was rotten after the drug dude modifications for 'cargo'. A friend of mine bought it, skinned it with 2 skins of Alaskan Yellow cedar to make it as new,...and then took off over about 3 seasons , sailed it here to NZ via Cortez/ Tahiti etc. Originally she wouldn't have had the big house, but its great for cruising.

 

20160929_174643.jpg

I forget the designer , Nils _________? You guys will know.

 

20151206_100211.jpg

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Niels Jeppesen ?

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Nils Lucander? (Probably not.)

Sheet! bang on , give that man a cigar.

 

I searched that name and went straight to a photo of the very boat.

 

https://www.facebook.com/Nils-Lucander-Designs-Naval-Architecture-1634944336725002/

 

I think it was built for the family who had something to do with Raytheon if I remember the conversation correctly. Anyway , exceptional construction for the day and even better now .

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Nils Lucander? (Probably not.)

Sheet! bang on , give that man a cigar.

 

I searched that name and went straight to a photo of the very boat.

 

https://www.facebook.com/Nils-Lucander-Designs-Naval-Architecture-1634944336725002/

 

 

Nils Lucander has designed some interesting boats.

 

http://www.thehulltruth.com/boats-sale-wanted/299920-36-lucander-three-keel-beachable-trawler.html

 

lucander.JPG

 

This is one from the WTF? file.

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Hey ish- that's my mom's old boat, and there's quite a bit more to the story.

Pm for details.

 

 

 

One possibility that hasn't been mentioned is to buy an equipped boat in one of the crossroads places or first stop after a long crossing places where dream cruises end after reality rears its ugly head. Places like Panama, Gibraltar, Hawaii and so forth have long standing reps as places where offshore equipped boats can be had cheap because someone aboard had had enough.

 

Looks like San Carlos might be one as well. That may be simply due to the long slog back to Cali but it sure looks like a lot of serious boats are on the block there.

My sister lives in San Carlos. They just had a boat donated for auction, Islander 36 that blew over with a hole in its side and broke the mast. I said "Hey, send me the details, I could fix that". I'm an idiot.

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Trevor. Do share. We're all curious.

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Not sure how far I should go into it in a semi-public forum.... let's say that you could probably fix it adequately for day sailing/ quick overnights, but there's an awful lot of history and prior damage (undisclosed to mom at purchase). Caveat emptor and all.

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Trevor. Do share. We're all curious.

 

I'm sure we'd all like to hear the details, but if you'd like to keep it quiet, I'm all ears.

 

Hey ish- that's my mom's old boat, and there's quite a bit more to the story.

Pm for details.

 

 

 

One possibility that hasn't been mentioned is to buy an equipped boat in one of the crossroads places or first stop after a long crossing places where dream cruises end after reality rears its ugly head. Places like Panama, Gibraltar, Hawaii and so forth have long standing reps as places where offshore equipped boats can be had cheap because someone aboard had had enough.

 

Looks like San Carlos might be one as well. That may be simply due to the long slog back to Cali but it sure looks like a lot of serious boats are on the block there.

My sister lives in San Carlos. They just had a boat donated for auction, Islander 36 that blew over with a hole in its side and broke the mast. I said "Hey, send me the details, I could fix that". I'm an idiot.

 

 

Dedicated to making the quote world totally uninhabitable.

 

Edit: OK, I feel better now. I was just itemizing my grinder discs. {Not}

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Not sure how far I should go into it in a semi-public forum.... let's say that you could probably fix it adequately for day sailing/ quick overnights, but there's an awful lot of history and prior damage (undisclosed to mom at purchase). Caveat emptor and all.

 

Some info buried here: http://analoggoesdigital.com/3/default.aspx

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Sorry about the poor quote etiquette... trying to do this on the work cell while worrying about the wife's chemo tomorrow.

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Sorry about the poor quote etiquette... trying to do this on the work cell while worrying about the wife's chemo tomorrow.

 

Equally sorry, not mocking you. I was just trying to make the world harder to follow than usual. It's a gift.

 

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Thanks, ish.

I needed that.

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In a different vein to most dreamboats in the thread: I offer a cruising boat. Maybe not totally dreamworthy, until you drop down below and burn one down. Then what dreams may come!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/85756014/men-harvesting-cannabis-on-islands-in-marlborough-sounds-imprisoned

post-54771-0-58513700-1477491231_thumb.jpg

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I understand that it can be a little bit annoying but Hallberg makes me dream every time when I'm looking at her pictures. Central cockpit, minimum of automatization, simple handling, optimal size of 40 feets, reliable equipment. I understand that it is old school but can't stand of it.

 

A lot of beautiful boats are shown but as a dream Hallberg Rassy 40mk II quite good.

 

But as a dream it is so expensive so far either.

 

Yeah... and of course photos :)

 

http://hr-club.dk/wp-content/gallery/hr-43-mk-ii/hallberg-rassy-sailing.jpg

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I understand that it can be a little bit annoying but Hallberg makes me dream every time when I'm looking at her pictures. Central cockpit, minimum of automatization, simple handling, optimal size of 40 feets, reliable equipment. I understand that it is old school but can't stand of it.

 

A lot of beautiful boats are shown but as a dream Hallberg Rassy 40mk II quite good.

 

But as a dream it is so expensive so far either.

 

Yeah... and of course photos :)

 

http://hr-club.dk/wp-content/gallery/hr-43-mk-ii/hallberg-rassy-sailing.jpg

 

Why do you like center cockpit? I have avoided that on purpose.

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I understand that it can be a little bit annoying but Hallberg makes me dream every time when I'm looking at her pictures. Central cockpit, minimum of automatization, simple handling, optimal size of 40 feets, reliable equipment. I understand that it is old school but can't stand of it.

A lot of beautiful boats are shown but as a dream Hallberg Rassy 40mk II quite good.

But as a dream it is so expensive so far either.

Yeah... and of course photos :)http://hr-club.dk/wp-content/gallery/hr-43-mk-ii/hallberg-rassy-sailing.jpg

 

Why do you like center cockpit? I have avoided that on purpose.

Only because of feeling of safty in winds from 6 acc. BF. You are located far from the vawes in this case. So mostly it is about selffeeling as for a outside advantages.

 

Such location of cockpit is not appropriate at the regular marina life but in case of offshore sailing it is very comfortable. Besides central cockpit allows to have very interesting deck plan. I mean owners cabin in front of the boat. So you have 2 cabins in different parts of boat with full isolation of your own life. Somtimes it can become important while a long trip ;)

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There is also the high freeboard / shallow cockpit option which ticks many boxes similar to the centre cockpit option.

 

e409c70cd5bdfd5a772af2b2575268b7.jpg

 

alubat-cigale-14-49348080152855524968665

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I was a teenage dockrat racing Laser's when this boat was splashed, and I remember thinking it was the biggest, coolest yacht I had ever seen. Still think it looks good, at a price that just reinforces the notion that we are in the Golden Age of a buyers market for classic plastic.

 

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/58034

 

main.jpg

 

Who wouldn't want to cruise looking at a burled maple compression post?

 

7.jpg

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Has Frers ever drawn a boat that wasn't great looking?

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Has Frers ever drawn a boat that wasn't great looking?

 

Well there's that Swan 36 everyone loves. Although maybe he didn't do the cabintop?

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