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PeterHuston

Is the 62 really going to end up as a 45?

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Whatever size they want to move to, there is no way it will far removed from the AC45 - they might even want to keep the 45's wings as standard one design components as a significant cost cutting measure

 

Anything else doesn't really make any sense...

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Red Bull Youth AC will be sailed in foiling 45s with national teams -- barring a DoG fight in 62s, it will again be the most entertaining regatta under the AC umbrella.

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a DoG fight wouldn't be 62s. It would be monster flying boats. monster enough to bankrupt small nations.

 

Would be quite the spectacle.

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No, Circolo della Vela Sicilia is the Challenger or Record.

 

Of what we heard it is now the group of challengers who is CoR, even if it doesn't seem to be Deed compliant.

If LR refused to be the CoR they are now going to feel, very, very sorry.

 

If we sum up:

- in favor: Oracle, Artemis, BAR, TF

- against: LR, TNZ

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Most of the articles being written in Italy are incensed, they think Bertelli has an enormous head start, has therefore no interest in cost-cutting, and this is all being done just to screw LR. This, despite there being no details decided yet about what the actual boat size might be - let alone any other boat or event details.

 

But here's a funny pic running with one of them:

 

America's Cup, AC 45 o AC 62: le dimensioni contano

 

20150326_113846.jpg

Classic spinbot....

 

'Despite there being no details about what the actual boat size will be'....the 62' rule has been out for quite while...but this back flip by Russ and lazza has the added bonus of jamming Bertelli in the ass...

 

We are only a cargo ship away from Russ and Paul's ' world super league of the world' and you know it...

 

It's going to interesting seeing you try and spin this up in a favorable team usa light....

 

'I will be the first one to stand up and point the finger if lazza tries to pull them same shit as Ernie'....fucking hypocrite...

 

The woman with the looking glass is looking for your balls..

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a DoG fight wouldn't be 62s. It would be monster flying boats. monster enough to bankrupt small nations.

 

Would be quite the spectacle.

I don't think so. If Bertelli say's he would rather honor the protocol as written, then its 62's.

 

Oracle cannot challenge itself to a DOG match.

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This whole thing isn't so much about the boats and who has a head start, it is Russell having an event to sell. He needs the Kiwis and the French in the AC, and the Japanese in the ACWS so Harvey has something to sell to sponsors.

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Reactions of all teams on the change. (most possitively)

 

The organizers of the America's Cup in 2017 working in agreement with the majority of registered teams including Team France, a series of changes to the original rules to drastically reduce operational budgets, with the first change in a boat that happen from 19 to 14 meters long.

The sales manager of the America's Cup, Harvey Schiller :

" After reviewing the prototypes of 45 feet that is currently testing the water, it is obvious that if we used boats of this size in 2017, could significantly reduce costs without losing the quality of the show and without sacrificing design, engineering or sports challenge that are fundamental to the America's Cup.

We must think about the future of long-term Cup while improving the situation for the teams and partners. Racing on smaller boats in 2017 and in the coming years is a first step in that direction.

With a boat like the AC62, the operational costs for the teams are too high. This change had already been discussed last year at a meeting in London, but at the time, only Oracle Team USA and Emirates Team New Zealand were in favor. But now the other teams have seen what happens with the AC45 and the majority supports this decision. I would have liked filled announce unanimous support but that is not the case . »

For Ben Ainslie , " It will be a big change, but necessary to ensure the sustainability of the Cup. These boats will reduce costs without significantly mitigate the challenge cup is for marine and architects . »

This changes also provides for the French skipper Franck Cammas : " We will set up a competitive team at a cost half as much and it will therefore win the Cup with a budget of 15-20 million. This decision is obviously very favorable for Team France and potential partners with whom we are discussing "

To ensure cost reduction in the long term, several teams, including Artemis Racing, pledged to use the same class of ship if they win the next edition. " These rule changes could help some teams in the Cup, but it is also to build the future of the race , "said Iain Percy , Director of Artemis Racing.

The new rules and the new class is being drafted and the teams will vote their implementation by the end of the month.

Source:

http://team-france.americascup.com/fr/news/162_Nouvelles-regles-une-equipe-competitive-pour-un-cout-deux-fois-moins-eleve-

 

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This whole thing isn't so much about the boats and who has a head start, it is Russell having an event to sell. He needs the Kiwis and the French in the AC, and the Japanese in the ACWS so Harvey has something to sell to sponsors.

 

Lets hope the Bermudians are still happy, 'cause the good Dr. already took them for M$60

 

Then there's NBC?!

 

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Team NZ response on their Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/EmiratesTeamNewZealand

 

 

The idea of boat size reduction is not new. Emirates Team New Zealand suggested this last year. Since then time has passed with teams well advanced in their design process now and any ideas around change will need the full consultation and support of all the teams.

 

Reads like TNZ are not in favour of the change anymore.

 

That's a misread. This Is GD being diplomatic. His team is not 'advanced', but his mate and financial saviour in AC34, Patrizio Bertelli's is.

He'd hardly have mentioned it was their own idea if they were now against it.

Calling for consultation and (hoping) for full support makes sense.

 

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Casting my mind back, and I can't now find a link, didn't somebody who calls himself "Mr Hawaii" record a brief exchange of words with LE shortly after AC34 where LE suggested it should be in 45 footers next time? Was noted here at the time, nobody took it very seriously.

 

Some people have been wondering why we haven't seen a new published AC45 rule. Guess we now know the answer to that.

 

Everyone is assuming Schiller's smaller boat is the AC45. May well be but the piece doesn't actually say that.

 

The clear suggestion to me was that it was the 45 foot 'scaled AC62' that had turned heads (justification) and that is what will replacing the Protocol mandated AC62 in the AC35 Match

 

They'll keep to the AC45Fs for the ACWS because i/ it's now just weeks away, ii/ an AC45X is not available to most teams yet and iii/ they will be too precious anyway.

 

So not having made the AC45F Class Rule public as yet - was not and indicator of any of this IMO

 

and the AC45 is history

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a DoG fight wouldn't be 62s. It would be monster flying boats. monster enough to bankrupt small nations.

 

Would be quite the spectacle.

I don't think so. If Bertelli say's he would rather honor the protocol as written, then its 62's.

 

Oracle cannot challenge itself to a DOG match.

 

honor the protocol as written

 

is not a DoG match

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This whole thing isn't so much about the boats and who has a head start, it is Russell having an event to sell. He needs the Kiwis and the French in the AC, and the Japanese in the ACWS so Harvey has something to sell to sponsors.

Lets hope the Bermudians are still happy, 'cause the good Dr. already took them for M$60

 

Then there's NBC?!

 

They care about the event not the boats.

We (AC crazies) care about the boats and the tech advancements.

 

The 45's are too "dumbed downed".

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Most of the articles being written in Italy are incensed, they think Bertelli has an enormous head start, has therefore no interest in cost-cutting, and this is all being done just to screw LR. This, despite there being no details decided yet about what the actual boat size might be - let alone any other boat or event details.

 

But here's a funny pic running with one of them:

 

America's Cup, AC 45 o AC 62: le dimensioni contano

 

20150326_113846.jpg

Classic spinbot....

 

'Despite there being no details about what the actual boat size will be'....the 62' rule has been out for quite while...but this back flip by Russ and lazza has the added bonus of jamming Bertelli in the ass...

 

We are only a cargo ship away from Russ and Paul's ' world super league of the world' and you know it...

 

It's going to interesting seeing you try and spin this up in a favorable team usa light....

 

'I will be the first one to stand up and point the finger if lazza tries to pull them same shit as Ernie'....fucking hypocrite...

 

The woman with the looking glass is looking for your balls..

That's pure bullshit - far as I know, Cayard not even involved. 😊

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LR is dead against. LR was also all for a challengers committee, where most are in favour. What would Jesus do? What would Walter White do?

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@lunarossa 2m

#LunaRossaChallenge is distinctly opposed to the proposal to change the Class Rule for the 35th America’s Cup

 

Oops! Could be a very tough thing to sell, in that case.

 

I forget, does the Protocol (signed to by everyone) required that any changes to the Class Rule be absolutely unanimous? It might.

 

There's also the issue as pointed out in some posts above that LR is, by the Protocol's succession clause, the de facto CoR. Rights come with that too.

 

Maybe there will be some kind of compromise agreed to by all but if LR "is distinctly opposed to the proposal to change the Class Rule for the 35th America’s Cup" and will stick to that position, well then my guess is that AC62's is what it'll still be.

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According to my gut feeling, the answer to the OP in no.

 

The original ac45 wasn't 45'. it is 40 plus that short bit that is bolted on to the transom. I wonder if the testbed 45s are actually 45 feet? Also i wonder if the wing on the testbeds is the height of the old wing with the extension or maybe even taller since it looks like they ditched the spi. Especially considering they would be designing for less wind than the SF bay.

 

This vote seems like it may have been planned for a while. Was wondering why the first thing OR and AR did was built mini 62s while LR focused on getting regular 45s foiling. Meanwhile NZ apparently stood by waiting to see what changes in the program would come up. They got burned pretty bad by the wind limit change last time. That was a verson of bait and switch wasn't it?

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According to my gut feeling, the answer to the OP in no.

 

The original ac45 wasn't 45'. it is 40 plus that short bit that is bolted on to the transom. I wonder if the testbed 45s are actually 45 feet? Also i wonder if the wing on the testbeds is the height of the old wing with the extension or maybe even taller since it looks like they ditched the spi. Especially considering they would be designing for less wind than the SF bay.

 

This vote seems like it may have been planned for a while. Was wondering why the first thing OR and AR did was built mini 62s while LR focused on getting regular 45s foiling. Meanwhile NZ apparently stood by waiting to see what changes in the program would come up. They got burned pretty bad by the wind limit change last time. That was a verson of bait and switch wasn't it?

 

NZ got fucked because they accepted the changes that Murray wanted regarding the course configuration. Luna Rossa built two test-bed 45s because two-boat testing is how you win.

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They care about the event not the boats.

 

 

 

Considering the flow of press releases and news stories coming from BDA about the 'spectacle' and the superyacht spectating and the 'amazing wing sails against the backdrop of Bermuda' and so on, I really cannot imagine Bermuda is happy about this at all. Whether they and Luna Rossa have any balls at all in the face of Russell and Doc Harvey's full-court press...that is unknown.

 

In my opinion, LR should toe the fucking line, and if that means only three boats in 2017, that means a better chance of winning for Max and Patrizio. This is Luna Rossa's last shot at a win anyway, so it doesn't matter if they win ugly so long as they win.

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I just did a quick search of the news and shockingly I cannot find a single Bermuda newspaper that has written anything about the proposed change. There are a few reprintings of the press release, but that's it.

 

This is a huge red flag, and it means that Bermuda had no fucking idea this was coming. It also means they are not happy about it, because they have been very quick to get every good announcement straight to their media mouthpieces.

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I just did a quick search of the news and shockingly I cannot find a single Bermuda newspaper that has written anything about the proposed change. There are a few reprintings of the press release, but that's it.

 

This is a huge red flag, and it means that Bermuda had no fucking idea this was coming. It also means they are not happy about it, because they have been very quick to get every good announcement straight to their media mouthpieces.

 

That, or they don't actually care so long as the boats are fast foilers, with the America's Cup on the line.

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@lunarossa 2m

#LunaRossaChallenge is distinctly opposed to the proposal to change the Class Rule for the 35th America’s Cup

 

Oops! Could be a very tough thing to sell, in that case.

 

I forget, does the Protocol (signed to by everyone) required that any changes to the Class Rule be absolutely unanimous? It might.

 

There's also the issue as pointed out in some posts above that LR is, by the Protocol's succession clause, the de facto CoR. Rights come with that too.

 

Maybe there will be some kind of compromise agreed to by all but if LR "is distinctly opposed to the proposal to change the Class Rule for the 35th America’s Cup" and will stick to that position, well then my guess is that AC62's is what it'll still be.

 

 

re: the bold, the latest Protocol already replaced the CoR and its rights with the Challenger Committee. It did actually get formalized, I'd forgotten.

 

14.3. Replacement of Challenger of Record with Challenger Committee: Following the withdrawal of HIYC as a Challenger and as the Challenger of Record, the remaining Competitors have agreed to the replacement of the Challenger of Record with the Challenger Committee. Refer amendment 2.5.1

 

http://ac.mueva.eu/media/files/m318_ac35-protocol--inc--amendment-03-.pdf

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The J Class regatta that ACEA are planning in Bermuda will be the bigger spectacle now.

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Maybe Russell calls Bertelli's bluff, kicks him to the curb, doesn't worry about the ACWS in June, and replaces him with another Italian challenger.

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According to my gut feeling, the answer to the OP in no.

 

The original ac45 wasn't 45'. it is 40 plus that short bit that is bolted on to the transom. I wonder if the testbed 45s are actually 45 feet? Also i wonder if the wing on the testbeds is the height of the old wing with the extension or maybe even taller since it looks like they ditched the spi. Especially considering they would be designing for less wind than the SF bay.

 

This vote seems like it may have been planned for a while. Was wondering why the first thing OR and AR did was built mini 62s while LR focused on getting regular 45s foiling. Meanwhile NZ apparently stood by waiting to see what changes in the program would come up. They got burned pretty bad by the wind limit change last time. That was a verson of bait and switch wasn't it?

 

The 45s were/are 45' whether the hulls are in one or two pieces. (designed to fit in a container - the 62's had to disassemble as well)

AR and OTUSA went for the width that replicates the AC62 specs straight away. The old AC45 wing was almost exactly to scale as well.

LR was always heading in the same direction, but going more step by step.

 

 

^ @ PH is that one of those 'test the reaction pieces?

 

Reaction: In your dreams

 

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I just did a quick search of the news and shockingly I cannot find a single Bermuda newspaper that has written anything about the proposed change. There are a few reprintings of the press release, but that's it.

 

This is a huge red flag, and it means that Bermuda had no fucking idea this was coming. It also means they are not happy about it, because they have been very quick to get every good announcement straight to their media mouthpieces.

 

That, or they don't actually care so long as the boats are fast foilers, with the America's Cup on the line.

 

 

They sent out a 3 page press release to announce that they had chosen a PR team. Three pages. This was two days ago.

 

They care about EVERYTHING associated with the cup; more than a few political careers will be destroyed if this AC is as big a fuckup as we expect.

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Maybe Russell calls Bertelli's bluff, kicks him to the curb, d

 

And how does he do that, exactly?

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Maybe Russell calls Bertelli's bluff, kicks him to the curb, d

 

And how does he do that, exactly?

 

 

just lets Luna Rossa withdraw, which is basically kicking him to the curb.

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According to my gut feeling, the answer to the OP in no.

 

The original ac45 wasn't 45'. it is 40 plus that short bit that is bolted on to the transom. I wonder if the testbed 45s are actually 45 feet? Also i wonder if the wing on the testbeds is the height of the old wing with the extension or maybe even taller since it looks like they ditched the spi. Especially considering they would be designing for less wind than the SF bay.

 

This vote seems like it may have been planned for a while. Was wondering why the first thing OR and AR did was built mini 62s while LR focused on getting regular 45s foiling. Meanwhile NZ apparently stood by waiting to see what changes in the program would come up. They got burned pretty bad by the wind limit change last time. That was a verson of bait and switch wasn't it?

 

The 45s were/are 45' whether the hulls are in one or two pieces. (designed to fit in a container - the 62's had to disassemble as well)

AR and OTUSA went for the width that replicates the AC62 specs straight away. The old AC45 wing was almost exactly to scale as well.

LR was always heading in the same direction, but going more step by step.

 

 

^ @ PH is that one of those 'test the reaction pieces?

 

Reaction: In your dreams

 

 

 

yeah, I was just musing about this all. Not that I think it is likely to happen, but with Russell, anything is possible these days. Only thing you can predict about Russell is that he will not honor his agreements.

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^ Doubt it, but then COR to NYSC

 

"GGYC and/or it's representatives are not honouring the Protocol for the 35th America's Cup"

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Clean, it's possible that some people there care, maybe some that even matter. But so far you have zero proof one way or the other, you're just speculating like everyone else.

 

A far more logical guess is that Doc S already ran it by his buds in Bermuda.

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Maybe Russell calls Bertelli's bluff, kicks him to the curb, d

 

And how does he do that, exactly?

 

 

just lets Luna Rossa withdraw, which is basically kicking him to the curb.

 

 

Why would they withdraw? Better to hold the line and go race AC62s against Oracle and Artemis, no?

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Somebody should probably tell Harvey how a challenge cup works.

He knows. Was covered in a press conference interview he did ages ago. He thinks it's incompatible with a sustainable commercial team franchise model. He's almost certainly right.

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Clean, it's possible that some people there care, maybe some that even matter. But so far you have zero proof one way or the other, you're just speculating like everyone else.

 

A far more logical guess is that Doc S already ran it by his buds in Bermuda.

You think it is logical to assume that ACEA 'ran something by' its partner first. If past performance predicts future actions, Bermuda is already getting ass raped.

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"We must think about the future of long-term Cup"

 

Somebody should probably tell Harvey how a challenge cup works.

 

They 'accidentally' left that bit out of his familiarisation briefing - makes everything seem so much more permanent and cozy

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Maybe Russell calls Bertelli's bluff, kicks him to the curb, d

 

And how does he do that, exactly?

 

 

just lets Luna Rossa withdraw, which is basically kicking him to the curb.

 

 

Why would they withdraw? Better to hold the line and go race AC62s against Oracle and Artemis, no?

 

 

Did you read the LR press release? If the group doesn't agree to stay in 62's, they are gone and so is the Cagliari ACWS.

 

Even if there was no other Italian challenger to take LR's place, they might pick up France, and maybe Japan, the Kiwi's and then the Auckland event happens.

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Maybe Russell calls Bertelli's bluff, kicks him to the curb, d

 

And how does he do that, exactly?

 

 

just lets Luna Rossa withdraw, which is basically kicking him to the curb.

 

 

Why would they withdraw? Better to hold the line and go race AC62s against Oracle and Artemis, no?

 

 

Did you read the LR press release? If the group doesn't agree to stay in 62's, they are gone and so is the Cagliari ACWS.

 

Even if there was no other Italian challenger to take LR's place, they might pick up France, and maybe Japan, the Kiwi's and then the Auckland event happens.

 

 

 

 

Luna Rossa does not believe that a sporting event should be disputed in a courtroom and does not intend to initiate a lengthy litigation process that would only bring prejudice to the event.

If the principle of unanimity of all challengers required to change the Class Rule were not to be respected Luna Rossa will be obliged to withdraw from the 35th America’s Cup.

Team Luna Rossa trusts that the Defender will quickly announce a public clarification, also to avoid jeopardizing the organization of the America’s Cup World Series – Cagliari – Sardinia event planned to take place from June 4 to June 7, 2015.

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Why can't I seem to find all these amendments that the official Protocol refers to? Anyone?

 

 

 

 

Screen Shot 2015-03-26 at 2.29.26 PM.png

Screen Shot 2015-03-26 at 2.28.46 PM.png

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Why can't I seem to find all these amendments that the official Protocol refers to? Anyone?

 

 

 

 

 

Clean, in the past the 'redlined' documents already included the text demanded by the noted amendments.

 

So what you read is what you get - unless it's been amended again since of course - they have released almost nothing.

 

For example here is the unamended version of your 11.4 above, dated June 2 2014

 

11.4. Resolving deadlock between GGYC and the Challenger of Record:

The Arbitration Panel chairman shall mediate any deadlock between GGYC

and the Challenger of Record where they cannot timely reach agreement

on any issue that requires their joint approval or agreement under the terms

of this Protocol, including:

(a) the appointment of the Regatta Director pursuant to Article 6.1;

(b] the removal and/or replacement of the Regatta Director pursuant to Article 6.1;16

(c] the appointment of any other Regatta Official pursuant to Article

6.2, including the other Arbitrators pursuant to Article 6.2(c];

(d) the approval or disapproval of the whole or any part or parts of the

budget for AC35 pursuant to Article 6.5;

(e) the approval of any changes to update the AC45 Class Rule

pursuant to Article 35.1; and/or

(f) the approval of any arrangements with ISAF pursuant to Article 12.

In the event that such mediation fails (in whole or part) for any reason, the

Arbitration Panel chairman shall arbitrate any matter or matters remaining

in dispute and his decision be final and binding on all parties and shall not

be subject to any review or appeal.

 

But this dispute doesn't revolve around changes to the AC45 rule!

It has to do with changing all the dimensions of the AC62 Class Rule - so that for example it's a max of 45 feet long! :lol:

 

 

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Why can't I seem to find all these amendments that the official Protocol refers to? Anyone?

 

 

 

 

 

Don't you find it curious that the "commercial director" made the announcement about a change to 45's, and not the race director (though I'm sure Iain is perfectly happy to stay out of the cross fire on this one).

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Why can't I seem to find all these amendments that the official Protocol refers to? Anyone?

 

 

 

 

Clean, the version of the Protocol on the AC site contains all the current amendments. I could not find the amendments themselves but did find the original, un-amended version of the Protocol upon its original release on another site. That can at least allow you to compare the two and reverse engineer the amendments to an extent.

 

http://ac.mueva.eu/media/files/m187_protocol-for-ac35.pdf

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Think about safety:

Uncontrolable too large cats due to cavitation leads to dangerous situations.

 

Think about the teams:

Every team is more content about the AC 45's then a too heavy to man AC 72/62.

 

Think about the small venue:

A smaller boat is easier to manouver and therefore fits in the relatively small venue of the Bermuda's

 

Think about safety again:

Smaller boats at speeds of 40 knots = 75 km/hr is 46 miles/hr.

Ever seen crashes at that speed in a small race-course. Not yet,,and it may not ever happen.

Smaller boats are safer then.

 

Think about the High-tech develoment platform for wings, foiling, and other high-tech stuff: (Graphene is my gadget)

High tech doesn't need boats which are big only to impress and to expensive to compete with and are unsafe.

 

Gut-feeling: this is a right decision.

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It's hard to know when I get a rumor from an "informed source" if I am being fed a line of BS, or if it is wishful thinking on their part, but when the info comes from a couple of different places that have zero connection to each other, there probably is some level of truth to it.

 

No one seems to be talking much at all about this recent meeting in London, but one of the by-products that I have heard twice in the last day is that Coutts has sent around an email saying he's proposing flicking the 62 already, in favor of some version of a 45.

 

Hard to know what led to this proposal, or who would really be in favor of it. I'd guess the Kiwi's would love it. But why would Artemis or Luna Rossa (or even BAR) want to change gears and downsize already, when so much of the planning as been based on the 62?

 

So, if this rumor of Coutts making this suggestion is true, what's the motivation and who benefits the most? Who will fight back the hardest?

 

 

 

Peter, looks like this was an informed source! Maybe this source could confirm the details of the new boat? Anyway, thanks for the insight.

 

+1

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Here the 'unanimity' brought up. Didn't see it in the Prot (could be there somewhere), but did see it wrt the AC45 Rule though.

 

"If the principle of unanimity of all challengers required to change the Class Rule were not to be respected Luna Rossa will be obliged to withdraw from the 35th America's Cup."

 

Later in that piece..

 

" it seems some teams are eager to use their jump in design to their advantage and conveniently disguise the radical move under the banner of cost-cutting"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/67522941/italians-luna-rossa-threaten-americas-cup-withdrawal-if-smaller-boats-are-approved

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AP, running all over the place

--

 

Italians will pull out of America's Cup if boats downsized

BY BERNIE WILSON

AP Sports WriterMarch 26, 2015 Updated 11 minutes ago

SAN DIEGO — Another battle of billionaires is stirring in the America's Cup, and this one could deal sailing's marquee regatta a staggering blow.

Rather than bog down the sport with another legal fight, Italian billionaire Patrizio Bertelli is threatening to pull Luna Rossa Challenge out of the America's Cup if defending champion Oracle Team USA doesn't follow the rules in deciding whether to downsize the boats to be used in the 2017 regatta.

Additionally, Luna Rossa, which is backed by the fashion house Prada, said the opening event of this year's America's Cup World Series in Sardinia will be in jeopardy if Oracle Team USA doesn't "quickly announce a public clarification" to a proposal to downsize the class of boats to be used in the 2017 regatta in Bermuda as a cost-saving measure.

Oracle Team USA is owned by software billionaire Larry Ellison, whose decision to defend the America's Cup in Bermuda rather than in the United States has made it difficult for some teams and the event itself to raise sponsorship money.

In a statement posted on its website, Team Luna Rossa Challenge said it "is distinctly opposed to the proposal ... to change the Class Rule for the 35th America's Cup and therefore the boat that was previously accepted by all challengers on June 5th 2014.

"Luna Rossa does not believe that a sporting event should be disputed in a courtroom and does not intend to initiate a lengthy litigation process that would only bring prejudice to the event. If the principle of unanimity of all challengers required to change the Class Rule were not to be respected Luna Rossa will be obliged to withdraw from the 35th America's Cup."

Luna Rossa said it "trusts that the Defender will quickly announce a public clarification" to also avoid jeopardizing the America's Cup World Series stop scheduled for Sardinia in June.

It's believed that the Italians have already spent tens of millions of dollars designing their 62-foot catamaran.

Bertelli, who is married to Miuccia Prada, is likely to follow through on his threat.

In July 2013, Luna Rossa sat out the opening race of the challenger trials on San Francisco Bay to protest rules changes, leaving organizers with the embarrassing scenario of Emirates Team New Zealand sailing around the course alone.

That spat got personal when Russell Coutts, the CEO of Oracle Team USA who's since also become director of the America's Cup Event Authority, called the Italians "a bunch of spoiled rich kids dressed in Prada gear" after Luna Rossa skipper Max Sirena announced the team was considering sitting out the first race.

America's Cup organizers proposed Wednesday that the planned 62-foot catamarans be downsized to 45-footers in order to cut costs.

The AC62 Class Rule, one of the event's governing documents, can be changed only with unanimous consent.

A news release issued late Wednesday by America's Cup organizers said the changes are being drafted and teams will be asked to vote before the end of March.

The loss of the Italian powerhouse would be a huge blow to an event that's already struggling to raise corporate sponsorships. Luna Rossa is one of five foreign challengers. Team France has yet to announce a major sponsor and Emirates Team New Zealand also is struggling to raise money. It's believed that even Sir Ben Ainslie, a British Olympic hero who has the support of the royal family, is struggling to raise the staggering amount of money needed to compete for the oldest trophy in international sports. The fifth challenger, Artemis Racing, is owned by Swedish billionaire Torbjorn Tornquvist.

While intended to help some struggling syndicates, the unprecedented move to downsize the boats in mid-course would also reduce the status and prestige of sailing's marquee regatta, not to mention the sizzle generated when the 2013 America's Cup was sailed in cutting-edge, 72-foot catamarans. The 62-foot cats are expected to be as fast and powerful as the 72-footers.

Bermuda outbid San Diego to host the America's Cup by promising a financial package worth up to $77 billion.

---

 

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^ "The AC62 Class Rule, one of the event's governing documents, can be changed only with unanimous consent."

 

Still curious where that's spelled out, but am guessing it is.

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^ "The AC62 Class Rule, one of the event's governing documents, can be changed only with unanimous consent."

 

Still curious where that's spelled out, but am guessing it is.

I don't find it either. I do note that Paragraph 1.1.(p-bis) establishes the Challenger Committee and indicates that the CC an act or agree via majority vote. Paragraph 20.1 allows the Protocol to be amended by agreement of GGYC and the CC. Paragraph 19.2 indicates that the Protocol takes precedence over the AC62 Class Rule. Put that in a blender and as far as I can tell, the CC can agree to ditch the 62 so long as a majority of the CC agree.

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AP, running all over the place

--

 

Italians will pull out of America's Cup if boats downsized

BY BERNIE WILSON

AP Sports WriterMarch 26, 2015 Updated 11 minutes ago

SAN DIEGO — Another battle of billionaires

(...)

While intended to help some struggling syndicates, the unprecedented move to downsize the boats in mid-course would also reduce the status and prestige of sailing's marquee regatta, not to mention the sizzle generated when the 2013 America's Cup was sailed in cutting-edge, 72-foot catamarans. The 62-foot cats are expected to be as fast and powerful as the 72-footers.

Bermuda outbid San Diego to host the America's Cup by promising a financial package worth up to $77 billion.

---

 

 

 

IIRC, GGYC/OTUSA/ACEA or who may have been in charge at that time already tried to change the boat class for AC34, suggesting a smaller boat than the AC72 - more than one year after the original rule was agreed, signed, and the teams had started the design process.

 

Goodness, is this a pattern of the defender?

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^ "The AC62 Class Rule, one of the event's governing documents, can be changed only with unanimous consent."

 

Still curious where that's spelled out, but am guessing it is.

Para. 4

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The 'Mericas cup has become as enjoyable as a shrimped kite. Get over it and move on. Enjoy seeing a "sail"boat go 45 knots and call it a day.

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^ "The AC62 Class Rule, one of the event's governing documents, can be changed only with unanimous consent."

 

Still curious where that's spelled out, but am guessing it is.

Para. 4

 

Ditching the 62 would require an amendment to the Protocol, which as far as I can tell only requires a majority vote of the CC.

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AP, running all over the place

--

 

Italians will pull out of America's Cup if boats downsized

BY BERNIE WILSON

AP Sports WriterMarch 26, 2015 Updated 11 minutes ago

SAN DIEGO — Another battle of billionaires

(...)

While intended to help some struggling syndicates, the unprecedented move to downsize the boats in mid-course would also reduce the status and prestige of sailing's marquee regatta, not to mention the sizzle generated when the 2013 America's Cup was sailed in cutting-edge, 72-foot catamarans. The 62-foot cats are expected to be as fast and powerful as the 72-footers.

Bermuda outbid San Diego to host the America's Cup by promising a financial package worth up to $77 billion.

---

 

 

 

IIRC, GGYC/OTUSA/ACEA or who may have been in charge at that time already tried to change the boat class for AC34, suggesting a smaller boat than the AC72 - more than one year after the original rule was agreed, signed, and the teams had started the design process.

 

Goodness, is this a pattern of the defender?

 

Yes, they have called for it before although it's not clear who-all exactly is pressing for it this time.

 

A clear pattern from Challengers and from wannabe Challengers has long been a call for cost reductions. LR seems to be putting their own interests above everyone else's here, but that's hardly any surprise since they likely think they are in great shape as-is and also don't much care if the Team France's of the world make it or not.

 

Another pattern is Bertelli being adamantly against any unagreed-to DR changes, although he did call for (actually, he demanded) the lowering of the wind limits in AC34.

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^^ The par 4 is irrelevant. As the new CoR is the challenger committee, a vote with majority can amend the prot.

The only solution for LR would be to dipute the Deed compliancy of the new collective CoR

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"Luna Rossa does not believe that a sporting event should be disputed in a courtroom and does not intend to initiate a lengthy litigation process that would only bring prejudice to the event. If the principle of unanimity of all challengers required to change the Class Rule were not to be respected Luna Rossa will be obliged to withdraw from the 35th America's Cup."


Luna Rossa said it "trusts that the Defender will quickly announce a public clarification" to also avoid jeopardizing the America's Cup World Series stop scheduled for Sardinia in June.



Think about adverisement:


The flashy LR catamarans will do equally good as 45 footers in advertisements.


LR regrets it's research done so far on the AC 62's but on the long run won't want to miss their commercial image.



They will turn by..


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The last time - with boats costing 10 million and up EACH - the ac teams (starting with ETNZ) revolutionized the sport of sailing. Imagine the possibilities of applying that kind of R&D budget to boats costing 1/3 as much. Think things like super-cavitating foils (break 50 kts) that would be unthinkably risky on a 62 footer.

Sorry, but (IMO) this one of the few times where size does NOT make a difference.

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^^ The par 4 is irrelevant. As the new CoR is the challenger committee, a vote with majority can amend the prot.

The only solution for LR would be to dipute the Deed compliancy of the new collective CoR

 

wether the protocol requires unanimity, or just a handshake unanimity. LR is saying they're out if it's not unanimous. They could certainly do that.

 

So would it be better for 2 good 62s with maybe 2 also rans

 

or 1/2 dozen 45s without LR?

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The last time - with boats costing 10 million and up EACH - the ac teams (starting with ETNZ) revolutionized the sport of sailing. Imagine the possibilities of applying that kind of R&D budget to boats costing 1/3 as much. Think things like super-cavitating foils (break 50 kts) that would be unthinkably risky on a 62 footer.

 

Sorry, but (IMO) this one of the few times where size does NOT make a difference.

I fully agree with you.

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Hasn't sailed yet has it? Might be a pitchpoleing nightmare :o (touchwood)

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If LR pull out it could be harder for TF, BAR, and TNZ to finalise their sponsorship.

 

They would all have to revisit their sponsors and say "oh by the way we have now agreed to change the size of the sponsors billboard"......

 

 

The OR sailing team will be concerned as they are all on contracts that can be terminated at will by OR

 

 

Like any good billionaire PB is very good at standing his ground over "principle" disagreements.

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So let's see - massively reduced basic operating budgets, potentially more teams, better long term potential, better racing, - pretty much everything the same haters who are against the shift to 45s now were demanding last time - plus probably better top speeds, and the increased possibility of another game-changing paradigm shift...what's not to like?

I also think that the potential for great tv - where the majority of viewers will be watching the match - is not in anyway compromised by boat size. It's about the technology, the speed, and the turns, just like formula 1. There is no question that seeing the 72s tearing up and down the bay both from land (and even better from the water) was fucking amazing - but at the same time, I think most people recognized that it was too huge and crazy to be sustainable, just like the Js. At least we have memories of the greatest AC in my lifetime.

Finally it's in Bermuda...an epic venue to be sure, but the 45s are a way better fit.

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Clean, it's possible that some people there care, maybe some that even matter. But so far you have zero proof one way or the other, you're just speculating like everyone else.

 

A far more logical guess is that Doc S already ran it by his buds in Bermuda.

in the last edition ACEA mostly did not run things past their partners

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Sustainable, long term potential? We are talking about 'the oldest International Sporting Trophy' right? A Challenger driven competition?

What you describe sounds great. LE can become the wet Bernie Ecclestone and have at it.

 

Just give the Cup to someone who understands how it's supposed to work first.

 

Bernie-Ecclestone-Might-Face-10-Years-In

 

Don't be another sucker who falls for the 'a foiling 45' will be faster than a foiling 62' either

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The 72s were awesome and visionary, but not sustainable. Just like the Js, as I noted.

And you obviously don't know shit about foiling and top speed potential - I suggest you Google 'Vestas Sail Rocket'.

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So does this mean the marketplace for AC45s may have just opened up? If so, then Spooner would seem to gain here since he's had Oracle's 45 seized by US Marshalls. Spooner most likely is pretty happy with this development, yes?

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The 72s were awesome and visionary, but not sustainable. Just like the Js, as I noted.

 

And you obviously don't know shit about foiling and top speed potential - I suggest you Google 'Vestas Sail Rocket'.

 

You know little about sailboat racing if you think Vestas is relevant.

& no need to google - just check the thread ;)

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So does this mean the marketplace for AC45s may have just opened up? If so, then Spooner would seem to gain here since he's had Oracle's 45 seized by US Marshalls. Spooner most likely is pretty happy with this development, yes?

I doubt ANY grinder is happy with this development - way fewer jobs.

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The last time - with boats costing 10 million and up EACH - the ac teams (starting with ETNZ) revolutionized the sport of sailing. Imagine the possibilities of applying that kind of R&D budget to boats costing 1/3 as much. Think things like super-cavitating foils (break 50 kts) that would be unthinkably risky on a 62 footer.

 

Sorry, but (IMO) this one of the few times where size does NOT make a difference.

I fully agree with you.

 

 

Then would you support a move to an unlimited size boat, and bet me 10 grand that the winner will be bigger than 45'?

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I just did a quick search of the news and shockingly I cannot find a single Bermuda newspaper that has written anything about the proposed change. There are a few reprintings of the press release, but that's it.

 

This is a huge red flag, and it means that Bermuda had no fucking idea this was coming. It also means they are not happy about it, because they have been very quick to get every good announcement straight to their media mouthpieces.

 

That, or they don't actually care so long as the boats are fast foilers, with the America's Cup on the line.

They sent out a 3 page press release to announce that they had chosen a PR team. Three pages. This was two days ago.

 

They care about EVERYTHING associated with the cup; more than a few political careers will be destroyed if this AC is as big a fuckup as we expect.

Wonder if the size of boat was specified in the hosting contract???

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Imagine what everyone at Luna Rossa is thinking right now.

 

Damn, I might be out of a job next week.

Gunemployed rinders.

 

That's a Spoonerism.

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The 72s were awesome and visionary, but not sustainable. Just like the Js, as I noted.

 

And you obviously don't know shit about foiling and top speed potential - I suggest you Google 'Vestas Sail Rocket'.

 

You know little about sailboat racing if you think Vestas is relevant.

& no need to google - just check the thread ;)

 

You know little about foils if you think that Vesta's breakthroughs with super cavitating foils aren't far more applicable to smaller boats where the price of failure during development can be more easily absorbed.

 

 

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Wonder if the size of boat was specified in the hosting contract???

 

 

If Larry's lawyers were able to sneak that simple majority past all the lawyers on the Challengers Committee, I'm guessing Bermuda's lawyers weren't much of a match.

 

It is so fucking ironic that Bertelli didn't want to become CoR because it would be a distraction

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There are pro's and cons to either staying with the status quo and AC62 plans, or going to something smaller - maybe even AC45 sized small. It really depends who you are.

 

As a fan I'd prefer to see AC62's. But I'm guardedly open-minded and the Turbos we've been watching on SF Bay recently definitely are hot, as Floater kept posting even before this 'vote' proposal came up.

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The last time - with boats costing 10 million and up EACH - the ac teams (starting with ETNZ) revolutionized the sport of sailing. Imagine the possibilities of applying that kind of R&D budget to boats costing 1/3 as much. Think things like super-cavitating foils (break 50 kts) that would be unthinkably risky on a 62 footer.

 

Sorry, but (IMO) this one of the few times where size does NOT make a difference.

I fully agree with you.

 

 

Then would you support a move to an unlimited size boat, and bet me 10 grand that the winner will be bigger than 45'?

 

Unlimited size would mean unlimited budgets. The advantage of size restraints (when you are dealing with fixed/limited budgets as many of the teams are) is that - as size goes down - the amount of development risk undertaken by each team in terms of looking for breakthru technologies goes UP.

 

 

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price of failure during development can be more easily absorbed.

 

Ah I see that's a rather amended position, and I understand that point, but it doesn't change...

 

Don't be another sucker who falls for the 'a foiling 45' will be faster than a foiling 62' either

 

Priortity?

 

Speed

Spectacle

Affordability

Sustainability

Attracting the biggest audience

Attracting the biggest sponsors

Creating a fair sporting competition

Not trying to build a commercial sporting franchise from GS's legacy

Staying true to and enhancing those aspects of sailing that originally attracted one to the sport

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The last time - with boats costing 10 million and up EACH - the ac teams (starting with ETNZ) revolutionized the sport of sailing. Imagine the possibilities of applying that kind of R&D budget to boats costing 1/3 as much. Think things like super-cavitating foils (break 50 kts) that would be unthinkably risky on a 62 footer.

 

Sorry, but (IMO) this one of the few times where size does NOT make a difference.

I fully agree with you.

 

 

Then would you support a move to an unlimited size boat, and bet me 10 grand that the winner will be bigger than 45'?

 

Unlimited size would mean unlimited budgets. The advantage of size restraints (when you are dealing with fixed/limited budgets as many of the teams are) is that - as size goes down - the amount of development risk undertaken by each team in terms of looking for breakthru technologies goes UP.

 

 

 

sorry, thought you agreed that a 45 footer would be as quick as a 62 footer. supercavitating foils and all, ya know?

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price of failure during development can be more easily absorbed.

 

Ah I see that's a rather amended position, and I understand that point, but it doesn't change...

 

Don't be another sucker who falls for the 'a foiling 45' will be faster than a foiling 62' either

No it's not. It's exactly what I said the first time. If SIX teams are able to afford to take wild flyers (experimenting with vesta's sail rocket foil technology, for example), rather than just ONE team with bottomless pockets, the odds are greatly increased of a breakthrough.

 

And in the end, foils are about power to weight, not waterline. Kind of like jet planes and formula one cars - the fast ones are tiny.

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