Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

PeterHuston

Is the 62 really going to end up as a 45?

Recommended Posts

It's hard to know when I get a rumor from an "informed source" if I am being fed a line of BS, or if it is wishful thinking on their part, but when the info comes from a couple of different places that have zero connection to each other, there probably is some level of truth to it.

 

No one seems to be talking much at all about this recent meeting in London, but one of the by-products that I have heard twice in the last day is that Coutts has sent around an email saying he's proposing flicking the 62 already, in favor of some version of a 45.

 

Hard to know what led to this proposal, or who would really be in favor of it. I'd guess the Kiwi's would love it. But why would Artemis or Luna Rossa (or even BAR) want to change gears and downsize already, when so much of the planning as been based on the 62?

 

So, if this rumor of Coutts making this suggestion is true, what's the motivation and who benefits the most? Who will fight back the hardest?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't imagine this flying with LR, AR, or BAR at this point.

 

Of course because we are all about W.A.S. around here, so how would this be better or worse? Obviously, the BUILD would be significantly less expensive, and I'm sure the design/engineering would be less too. Safer? Probably no different. Personnel costs would be way less, with a couple less people on board, and likely an even bigger difference for the shore crew. Performance, in good winds, would likely not be that much different, if what the Franken45s that OR and AR have been playing with is any indication, although I imagine foiling tacks would likely be much easier to nail down on the bigger boats. The good: way less expensive . . . maybe it would cost less for each team to have two of the smaller boats than one of the bigger boats, and the probability that France (and maybe even Japan, et al) making it to the competition would be way better. All that equates to more boats to drool over. The bad: smaller boats just don't look as impressive, less low-wind performance potential, another late change to degrade the integrity of the Cup.

 

Back to reality, this is almost certainly nothing but BS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would ask the NYSC if a filing has been made to adjust the min. waterline length downward, by the trustee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

mutual consent...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RC proposed a different, smaller boat last time too, think it was at a meeting during ACWS San Diego. GD, possibly others too, opposed it in part for it being 'too late.'

 

You'd think 'Team France' would love a change like that, perhaps even RC has tough budget constraints and so wants it for that reason too?

 

Presumably LR (or the Challenger Commision they endorse, acting as a Democracy) would have to approve that change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The idea was posted here a few months ago, I don't remember who sait it first.

Iit would be a great idea and perhaps the one allowing to have many teams including TF.

 

Boats, even though much smaller, would probably be, if not yet, faster than AC72s and much more fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it's true - and I'm not saying it is - it's not a great sign for the event as it's likely being driven by the real risk that some of the cash-strapped/sponsor-driven teams are struggling to get a campaign together. ETNZ and Team France are the obvious ones, and I see BAR building a gleaming new building but have they confirmed financing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The cost to enter would be lower, maybe. The cost to win would likely be the same. Or at at least one team would spend as much as last time regardless of win or loss. AC is about spending, the old quote is something like, "If you held the America's Cup in Lasers, someone would still spend $100,000,000 to try and win it."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The idea was posted here a few months ago, I don't remember who sait it first.

Iit would be a great idea and perhaps the one allowing to have many teams including TF.

 

Boats, even though much smaller, would probably be, if not yet, faster than AC72s and much more fun.

 

Here, problem solved - looks amazing!

 

11065885_724608537657818_434033781884753

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see BAR building a gleaming new building but have they confirmed financing?

I'm mostly paying for the building. It's called "taxes".

 

Otherwise, they've said they have 50% of budget from private investors. No headline sponsor to date.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I see BAR building a gleaming new building but have they confirmed financing?

I'm mostly paying for the building. It's called "taxes".

 

Otherwise, they've said they have 50% of budget from private investors. No headline sponsor to date.

 

 

Ha - ok, so "no" then. Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About the only appeal to me in them making a change down to a 45 sized boat would be if it were a more open Rule than what the AC72 Rule is.

 

Can't think of too many other reasons to hope for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bring you biggest and baddest

 

those were the days

 

maybe that's why Spithill was hinting at an Ozzie return

 

but still ... is this the America cup ? really

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was disappointed after the 'biggest and baddest' AC33 Dog Match when they went all the way down to an AC72. That did work out, but then they reduced it to an AC62? That also disappointed me, although it has been encouraging to hear a variety of teams' guys talk about how hot this boat will be too.

 

But 45'? Dang that's small - might just as well follow the GC32 if it's a tight AC45 rule and if there's that little length distinction too.

 

Hopefully it's just an 'offer' idea and it's not being pressed hard for by anybody.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder what the conversation was in the 50's when the reduction to a 44' lwl was making the rounds?

 

And yes, lwl is not an MC item in the DoG, only the terms and conditions of the match. The boats must fit the parameters that are set without going to the NYSC to get an amendment, like 1956 (?).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder what the conversation was in the 50's when the reduction to a 44' lwl was making the rounds?

 

And yes, lwl is not an MC item in the DoG, only the terms and conditions of the match. The boats must fit the parameters that are set without going to the NYSC to get an amendment, like 1956 (?).

way back in your 50's (good on you, grin, fucking old fart) 44 lwl was big

 

problem in the marina where my 5ktsb is located is that it was built in the 60's and distance between pontoons is designed for a typical 28 footer, which at this moment is getting to be midget sailing size

 

45 foot at this moment is [exaggeration mode] akin to oppie sailing [\ exaggeration mode], 45 cats are like playmobil, plebejan toys ! B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.americascup.com/en/news/155_Significant-cost-saving-measures-planned-for-2017-Americas-Cup.html

 

 

 

The competitors and organizers of the 2017 America’s Cup are planning to implement a series of rule changes to dramatically reduce team operational costs, primarily by racing in a smaller boat.

“After reviewing prototypes of the new AC45 sports boats being tested on the water over the past several months, it is clear that if we raced smaller boats in 2017, we could dramatically reduce costs without sacrificing any of the spectacle or the design, engineering and athletic challenge fundamental to the America’s Cup,” said Commercial Commissioner Harvey Schiller.

“We have a responsibility to think of what is best for the long term health of the America’s Cup as well as improving the value equation for team principals and partners. Racing a smaller boat in 2017 and beyond is a big step in the right direction.

“The existing operational costs of teams is much too high with a boat like the AC62. We discussed making this change early last year at a Competitors meeting in London but at that stage only ORACLE TEAM USA and Emirates Team New Zealand were in favor of using a smaller boat.

“But now that the teams have seen these new boats in action there is a clear majority of competitors who support the idea. I’d like to be able to say we have unanimous support from all the teams but that is not the case.”

Boat speed in the new boat is expected to be similar to what was achieved in the last America’s Cup through increased time foiling and advances in design and engineering.

“This will be a big change, but it is a necessary one if we are to create a sustainable America's Cup for the future,” said Sir Ben Ainslie, the skipper and team principal of Ben Ainslie Racing. “These boats will create a significant cost saving whilst still providing a real challenge for sailors and designers alike.”

“For Team France this will be a game-changer,” said skipper Franck Cammas. “We will be able to have a very competitive team for about half the budget. With the smaller boat we can imagine that a budget between €15-20 million would be enough to win the America’s Cup.”

To lock in the cost saving measures over the long-term several competitors, including Artemis Racing, have committed to using the new smaller class in the next edition of the America’s Cup should they prevail in this one.

“These changes may help some current teams be more competitive, but this is clearly also about building the future of the America’s Cup,” said Iain Percy, the team manager of Artemis Racing.

“By making a commitment now to using the smaller boat next time, it will be that much easier for new teams to join as they’ll have access to existing boats and technology. So this has required us to look a little bit beyond the scope of ‘what’s in it for us?’.”

The rule changes are being drafted and teams will be asked to vote on these changes before the end of March.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well bugger me sideways. I'm wrong again, thought that there was zero chance of this happening. I still say someone will spend mega $$$$$. Does this make Auckland and qualifiers more likely? Easier to transport a 45 for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

http://www.americascup.com/en/news/155_Significant-cost-saving-measures-planned-for-2017-Americas-Cup.html

 

 

 

The competitors and organizers of the 2017 America’s Cup are planning to implement a series of rule changes to dramatically reduce team operational costs, primarily by racing in a smaller boat.

“After reviewing prototypes of the new AC45 sports boats being tested on the water over the past several months, it is clear that if we raced smaller boats in 2017, we could dramatically reduce costs without sacrificing any of the spectacle or the design, engineering and athletic challenge fundamental to the America’s Cup,” said Commercial Commissioner Harvey Schiller.

 

“We have a responsibility to think of what is best for the long term health of the America’s Cup as well as improving the value equation for team principals and partners. Racing a smaller boat in 2017 and beyond is a big step in the right direction.

 

“The existing operational costs of teams is much too high with a boat like the AC62. We discussed making this change early last year at a Competitors meeting in London but at that stage only ORACLE TEAM USA and Emirates Team New Zealand were in favor of using a smaller boat.

 

“But now that the teams have seen these new boats in action there is a clear majority of competitors who support the idea. I’d like to be able to say we have unanimous support from all the teams but that is not the case.”

 

Boat speed in the new boat is expected to be similar to what was achieved in the last America’s Cup through increased time foiling and advances in design and engineering.

 

“This will be a big change, but it is a necessary one if we are to create a sustainable America's Cup for the future,” said Sir Ben Ainslie, the skipper and team principal of Ben Ainslie Racing. “These boats will create a significant cost saving whilst still providing a real challenge for sailors and designers alike.”

 

“For Team France this will be a game-changer,” said skipper Franck Cammas. “We will be able to have a very competitive team for about half the budget. With the smaller boat we can imagine that a budget between €15-20 million would be enough to win the America’s Cup.”

 

To lock in the cost saving measures over the long-term several competitors, including Artemis Racing, have committed to using the new smaller class in the next edition of the America’s Cup should they prevail in this one.

 

“These changes may help some current teams be more competitive, but this is clearly also about building the future of the America’s Cup,” said Iain Percy, the team manager of Artemis Racing.

 

“By making a commitment now to using the smaller boat next time, it will be that much easier for new teams to join as they’ll have access to existing boats and technology. So this has required us to look a little bit beyond the scope of ‘what’s in it for us?’.”

 

The rule changes are being drafted and teams will be asked to vote on these changes before the end of March.

 

 

Interesting move, and one that would be quickly followed by a request for two boats per team. But even so, two 45s are going to be cheaper than one 62, with a lot more development being possible. This could also bring in several low cost one boat teams - could open things right up.

 

Similar boatspeeds but with far fewer grinders and much lower loads, sounds good to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

holy crap!

 

This is fucking awesome. The bait and switch is complete!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know whether this will actually happen, but I think it's a very good idea.

 

The AC35 protocol made no sense. Why build all these 45 footers and spend years developing them and then race a single 62 footer at the end?

 

It was even more ridiculous when the Australian COR withdrew because of costs very soon after the protocol was released.

 

If they were to go to a boat around 45 foot then they could use the same boats for everything. They would be much safer, have less problems with cavitation, save lots of money and probably get more entries.

 

Seems like a no-brainer! Pity they didn't do this in the first protocol because all these points were obvious then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“By making a commitment now to using the smaller boat next time, it will be that much easier for new teams to join as they’ll have access to existing boats and technology. So this has required us to look a little bit beyond the scope of ‘what’s in it for us?’.”

The rule changes are being drafted and teams will be asked to vote on these changes before the end of March.

 

Two things pop out here - the "smaller boat next time" is not Deed legal. They can't contemplate the next challenge before this one is over.

 

And "before the end of March". Which March? 2015 or 2016?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obviously march 2015. They wouldn't time enough time to build and test AC62 if it was march 2016.

The rule will probably tell: " the yacht will be minimum 44 ft at the waterline, loaded."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well bugger me sideways. I'm wrong again, thought that there was zero chance of this happening. I still say someone will spend mega $$$$$. Does this make Auckland and qualifiers more likely? Easier to transport a 45 for sure.

 

It appears that is a big part of this deal; if they change to 45s, they can come to auckland. if not, not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OR (RC)seems to be hell bent on doing anything necessary to make his homecoming retirement heroic.

No actually this is about hijacking the Cup for the rest of his life and creating the WSL. Nice work if you can get it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

mutual consent...

Not MC-able.

 

It is unclear whether that's true or not and that's also, I believe, the advice NYYC received at the time of the last DoG change. They made the change to be certain. We'll never know unless 1. they try it and 2. a $B with appetite for a DoG challenge takes it to court.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

holy crap!

 

This is fucking awesome. The bait and switch is complete!

Are you standing on your head as you type? It's the exact opposite of bait and switch. Bait and switch is advertise cheap, sell expensive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“But now that the teams have seen these new boats in action there is a clear majority of competitors who support the idea. I’d like to be able to say we have unanimous support from all the teams but that is not the case.....The rule changes are being drafted and teams will be asked to vote on these changes before the end of March."

 

So what happens when the team or teams who don't agree are voted down? Who signed up for a given protocol and who have already spent big money preparing for that. I think we already know the answer to that one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The continued descent into a grand prix event, WSL, cool boat world championship continues and is almost complete. I'm ok with that but PLEASE remove the name America's Cup from the event. Make it the super super super bowl of sailing (or whatever overhyped title suits a multi-national sailing event).

 

 

Then maybe, some day, the Americas Cup can be brought back as a race for the extremely rich (we do have lots of these in the world today) on boats that are not easily imagined. Wouldn't that be cool. When tv coverage and race course selection don't dictate the event with ransom money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.c-class.org/

 

just join the little americas cup and be done with it.

 

They'd probably fuck that class in the process.....

It would kill the class stone dead. C-class owners spend money on an entire campaign that would fund an AC team for a few days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

OR (RC)seems to be hell bent on doing anything necessary to make his homecoming retirement heroic.

No actually this is about hijacking the Cup for the rest of his life and creating the WSL. Nice work if you can get it.

 

 

+1

The continued descent into a grand prix event, WSL, cool boat world championship continues and is almost complete. I'm ok with that but PLEASE remove the name America's Cup from the event. Make it the super super super bowl of sailing (or whatever overhyped title suits a multi-national sailing event).

 

 

Then maybe, some day, the Americas Cup can be brought back as a race for the extremely rich (we do have lots of these in the world today) on boats that are not easily imagined. Wouldn't that be cool. When tv coverage and race course selection don't dictate the event with ransom money.

 

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But 45'? Dang that's small - might just as well follow the GC32 if it's a tight AC45 rule and if there's that little length distinction too.

Stand next to an AC45 on the shore and yes, they look like a little boat. Winches that could have come off a 30 foot cruiser racer. We are about to see a glut of grinders on the job market, apparently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it build up the number of teams, competition and viewership, I'm down with the idea. Bermuda is far smaller than San Fran. Scaled boats in tighter courses, makes sense.

 

I love the design competition element of the cup, which was at its zenith in 2010, will unfortunately not be as big a focus, but with each cup, there's a different alpha element.# 32 competition, #33=design, billionaire soap opera. #34 San Francisco and the new design. #35, imagine will be the sportsmen.

 

Just thinking out loud.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Teams in favor of smaller boats: Oracle, TNZ, Artemis, BAR, TF and perhaps new teams without the right to vote like Australia.

However:

"I’d like to be able to say we have unanimous support from all the teams but that is not the case.”

 

So LR should be against, but there will be a vote, I guess it will be the majority, but don't we already have a protocol that can only be negociated between the CoR and the Defender?

IIRC, TNZ refused to be CoR but could still officially the CoR, as first to challenge as per the Deed, no ?

On the other hand LR is supposed to be the new CoR but refused and transfered it to all challengers as a group.

If that is the case the majority should win and they will be sorry for their mistake.

If TNZ is still CoR there will be no problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just what we need. More fucking fleet racers. At least they won't be OD hopefully.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going with MOD AC45s?

 

Naw, I want them to go with the biggest, baddest new tech multihull boats we've ever seen (now all winged); been that way since the AC Class with bulb keels and ridiculous loads (12M Class , yecch, shallow keels and hull restrictions distorted the boat), J Class (130+ feet) explored how big can you be. The history is there. Bring your baddest boat within the rules; It's not one design racing.

.

The last two cups were astounding, a pure DOG race with both boats testing the DOG limits and a surprise late reveal wing, then the 34th Cup some sort of agreement on 72 footers where halfway through development some teams discovered foiling and the Cup became "how good can you foil?" I was there and believe me a 72' AC boat on foils when reaching at 42kn is something to see and hear.

 

I was disappointed when the 62' rule was agreed on because that's really not a very big boat (and not much smaller than a 72') and doubted it would cut costs significantly. If dropping down to 45 footers is in the cards it's becoming a charade. The AC niche has always been a design contest with the biggest practical most magnificent boats hitting the line and somehow some boats are faster despite the best efforts of the sailors.. Big, fast, expensive, fragile, bring it on!

 

AC 45s, meh, might as well compete in Nacras. Cost cutting, not gonna happen; some team will come up with the bucks to double down on design, crew, multiple boats, etc. The sky is the limit no matter what boat size.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

"long term health of the America’s Cup"

 

 

...my arse, the AC is as healthy as its ever been if only one challenger shows up. Its a technologically oriented *boat race*. There's the build up, the circus comes to town, then its over. Talk about a pig in a pearl necklace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some years ago, the Little America's Cup was hijacked and it died. Fortunately, the C Class managed to create their own event in the spirit of the original LAC and that is thriving.

 

So now we see the America's Cup continuing to be hijacked by RC, destroying it's position as the ultimate event in sailing. Unfortunately, unlike the LAC and the C Class, there is nothing that can be done, particularly if there is a non deed compliant commitment to retain whatever class is finally chosen. That in itself is a stupid idea, because until the boats are built and raced, we have no real idea as to the limitations etc. It is just another case of RC trying to control the future of the AC.

 

While I have always believed that it is essential to increase the number of participants, it is also essential that the AC remains the ultimate sailing. I cannot see how that happens in a 45' boat with a crew of 5 or 6. It is too similar to other series.

 

Many have warned that this was the end game and where it would lead. All we got was abuse. We also got promises that if it really did happen, those OR fanboys would be leading the condemnation. Well, we are waiting..........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The may also be taking in to account the bathtub sized venue.

 

If this plan was in the works earlier than we know it might have been the reason they chose Bermuda .

 

The question is which came first the venue or the mini boat ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to say when I watched the recent Navas Oracle 45 video I inadvertently called this development: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=164020&p=4869701 I do have mixed feelings but when we're faced with the possibility of not having competitive challengers vs. smaller boats and TNZ and TF being able to be there and bring some of the best sailors, is that really a bad thing? We seem to otherwise be in a situation where regardless of RC and LE, there don't seem enough seriously rich people to have a giant boat format right now. Where are the Thomases (Lipton and Sopwith) when you need them? Weren't they pondering retiring the Cup completely before they 12 meter era started up? So we're back to such a point and this may not be as spectacular as the last AC finals but I'll bet the challenger series will be a hell of a lot more competitive than last time. And that will be a big advantage for the venue so it's unclear Bermuda is getting any more screwed by this than hosting the event in the first place. I would also say about fleets and F1 that there are many open wheel series that look at lot like F1 with cars of a similar size to F1 and they are NOT F1. F1 is the biggest deal because the cars are 10X more expensive than one design Indycars and at least the top few drivers are really the best in the world. The AC will be like that.

 

With the smaller boat, there is more money to put into developing the wings and foils and controls so I would hope we would see boats that can readily foil the whole way around the course even in moderate conditions. I'd hope too that they let the class be more of a testbed for electronic control aids at that point so foiling is really stable and so fleet races become more like car races. I've seen that sort of effect in a few moth race videos and it could be the most awesome thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^^ multiple variants of the same theme, pseudo one design racing for the Americas Cup Does not equate to the Americas Cup. RC- please stop! LE wake up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Team NZ response on their Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/EmiratesTeamNewZealand

 

 

The idea of boat size reduction is not new. Emirates Team New Zealand suggested this last year. Since then time has passed with teams well advanced in their design process now and any ideas around change will need the full consultation and support of all the teams.

 

Reads like TNZ are not in favour of the change anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ya, i got a regular ride on a 45 footer... sure it's not as fast, but you get the idea...

let's run F1 in Corvettes... Competent vehicles, way cheaper.... NOOOOOoooooo.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Team NZ response on their Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/EmiratesTeamNewZealand

 

 

The idea of boat size reduction is not new. Emirates Team New Zealand suggested this last year. Since then time has passed with teams well advanced in their design process now and any ideas around change will need the full consultation and support of all the teams.

Reads like TNZ are not in favour of the change anymore.

They probably know Bertelli isn't about to agree to it so they want to be on his side. They have a big design and build knowledge base that Ainslie does not going smaller helps Ainslie more than it helps the kiwis and smaller gets Cammas in the event which the kiwis don't want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have assumed that the Auckland qualifying round is crucial for ETNZ to secure (govt) funding yet they come out against the downsizing due to being "advanced in their design process". So god knows what that means. Just when I thought it couldn't get any more shambolic ....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So when is act one? haahaahaa heeheehee hoohoohoo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It took them this long to finally figure it out?

 

Jesus H. Christ these fuckers are stupid (though great sailors, obvs).

 

While going all the way down to the 45s is certainly at the extreme, if they had just started 34 with a 45 and 55, then everybody would have been much better off. As much as I loved watching the 72s fly around the bay, the overall event was such a big let down (besides the final) it was a complete fucking joke.

 

And if they had run 34 with the 45/55 boats, then it would have been much closer to living up to the expectations that had been set, and then we could be having 35 in SF again instead of the abomination that is Burmuda.

 

I really wish I could get my hands on whatever drugs they were taking when they thought that just going from 72 to 62 would have been enough to make it more affordable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what a fuckin joke...

 

We have had Extreme 40 for years, AC in 45ft beach cats, meh. Irrelevance now has new meaning....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have assumed that the Auckland qualifying round is crucial for ETNZ to secure (govt) funding yet they come out against the downsizing due to being "advanced in their design process". So god knows what that means. Just when I thought it couldn't get any more shambolic ....

 

TNZ have had a design team working on AC62 design for months.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

bring you biggest and baddest

 

those were the days

 

maybe that's why Spithill was hinting at an Ozzie return

 

but still ... is this the America cup ? really

+1

 

Wtf? Why not hold the cup using remote control boats with a waterline of 2 feet? Just think how much teams could save by eliminating all those pesky (and expensive) sailors, support teams, designers, and even the food.

 

This is the America's cup for fucks sake not just another Extreme series. Keep it big and bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I have assumed that the Auckland qualifying round is crucial for ETNZ to secure (govt) funding yet they come out against the downsizing due to being "advanced in their design process". So god knows what that means. Just when I thought it couldn't get any more shambolic ....

TNZ have had a design team working on AC62 design for months.

 

And they are probably the only ones, right ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For all of the "this is a highjack" whiners - get a life.

 

The AC has seen much much worse for MC boats. The 45' length is fast but still has plenty of room for "may the best design win".

 

As long as 45' boats can keep the Dog threat at bay, it meets the real spirit of the AC (push things any way the B in charge wants, but take your chances that some other B will spoil your day).

 

As an OR supporter, I think this is a really big risk. Team France and others that seemed low-risk or non-players at 62' get a real shot. Heck one of several 30 something foiling boats (or possibly even a Flying Phantom) become a potential real research tool when they only need to be scaled up to 45'.

 

The key is real MC. These teams are spending plenty of money and they know they will have to deal with the outcome of a vote.

 

If the currently registered teams sign-up, lets just enjoy the show.

 

If not, again just sit back & enjoy whatever show develops.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

what a fuckin joke...

 

We have had Extreme 40 for years, AC in 45ft beach cats, meh. Irrelevance now has new meaning....

 

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Casting my mind back, and I can't now find a link, didn't somebody who calls himself "Mr Hawaii" record a brief exchange of words with LE shortly after AC34 where LE suggested it should be in 45 footers next time? Was noted here at the time, nobody took it very seriously.

 

Some people have been wondering why we haven't seen a new published AC45 rule. Guess we now know the answer to that.

 

Everyone is assuming Schiller's smaller boat is the AC45. May well be but the piece doesn't actually say that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This has happened at least twice before and for most of it's history the AC hasn't actually been sailed in the biggest baddest boats out there.

 

Rolling out of the first World War no one could afford to build DOG boats anymore. There were K-Class yachts out there, but they were so few and so expensive that they settled on the smaller J-Class. We didn't see another DOG until for Coma off Point Loma 60+ years latter.

 

The same thing happened after WWII. The 12 meters the old salts profess to loving so much and that produced such a memorable AC in Freeo weren't the biggest or the fastest yachts of their era. They where the largest yachts commonly enough sailed at the time to attract more than the 2 teams needed for the match its self.

 

In many ways you can look at the AC45 as a modern day 12 Meter.

 

After the 12s the AC continued in a boat that was not quite the largest or the fastest.

 

Remember when everyone was waling and throwing up their arms in angst at the mere thought of DOG match? How AB had bought the Cup to its knees with his overly commercial approach requiring Larry "the white knight" Ellison to ride into town and save the day with his wing sailed tri and international team (USA! USA! USA!). Now after a DOG match and the AC72 everyone thinks the AC should be the big bad and brash?

 

So if this isn't about being true or untrue to the history of the cup -- you can read it both ways -- what is it about?

 

For my money this is a quintessential NYYC style move. This can only be because Oracle -- having pulled off a last minute stroke last time out -- think they are far enough behind in the development on an AC62 that there is a significant risk they could loose.

 

There are significant parallels to last time round and history shows that if you piss about with the Brits sense of "fair play" (or entitlement depending on how you look at it) they take their ball home before the game even kicks off.

 

There is one positive that may come out of this.

 

There's a chance an OTUSA AC45 might actually be crewed (mostly) by USainians.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I recall a video during AC34 where Schiller was discussing a proposal to run AC35 in AC45s. He was spruiking an F1 style circuit to potential sponsors and was getting a bit ahead of himself because, at that stage, ETNZ was looking hard to beat in AC34.

 

There was also the video mentioned above where LE mentioned using the AC45s during the AC35 protocol negotiations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whitmarsh turns up and says "you guys are smoking something if you think this has legs at this price".

 

I don't read this as the current Ac45s. I read this as the opportunity to open the design limitations AND give opportunity for more teams. Newey, and therefore BAR wouldn't have signed up to a one design.

 

Easily conceivable that you actually get a better design competition than heavily constrained 62s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Totally of topics and I have no idea about the budgets but watching this old video. Even if this is old, slow, "low tech" isn't this much more entertaining. Just watching the crew work and the tactics. This is so much more fun then the modern speed demons. Is it possible that we are loosing the fun by doing the wing cats, then taking them on a diet to be able to afford it. Any one having an idea about the difference in cost running a IACC team vs a AC62 team

 

https://www.youtube.com./watch?v=dGxy5Sxzttc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Biggest issue IMHO with scaling the AC boats down to 45' is the lack of differentiation between the ACWS or Acts or whatever you want to call them, and the AC proper. The main issue I had with EB's vision was the fact that the AC boats would race multiple times per year, and then every few years one of those regatta's would be for the AC itself - what is the point of that? The AC really should clearly be the climax of the whole thing.

 

I understand the need for teams and commercial sponsors to have some form of continuity during the AC cycles - a 3 year program is way too long term for any company these days (they are only focussed on their next quarterly results...)

 

In that respect I actually thought the concept of having an annual series in smaller but very similar boats was a great idea

 

My biggest disappointment now is that we live in a world that has never had more billionaires out there, and we can't even find more who are willing to go play in decent sized boats, while plenty of them are spending AC sized budgets on monstrous megayachts...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Amateur Hour. All they had to do was go back to soft mains

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hahaha, this is hilarious and depressing.

 

So there will be the Americas Cup world series run in foiling OD AC45's and then the actual Americas Cup run in AC45X's in which the bottom of the hulls are the same but the rest is open? I spent much of last cycle having to explain to casual observers that the AC45's weren't AC72's and why there were two boat designs, and two events, and what was the actual Americas Cup and what was the meaningless World Series hype. I guess running it all in two different classes of 45 footers will really clear that up for all those general public eyeballs they are allegedly chasing.

 

Russell's World Sailing League is almost a reality! Muddy the AC waters until oh hey presto let's just adopt this WSL format I've got in the old folder here and american sporting terminology and be done with it. "America's Cup Playoffs" are they fucking serious? Next thing Cayard will spring from where ever he's been hiding and rejoin the fun like it's 2007 all over again!

 

Maybe those AC90's weren't such a bad idea... Ernesto must be pissing himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Casting my mind back, and I can't now find a link, didn't somebody who calls himself "Mr Hawaii" record a brief exchange of words with LE shortly after AC34 where LE suggested it should be in 45 footers next time? Was noted here at the time, nobody took it very seriously.

 

Some people have been wondering why we haven't seen a new published AC45 rule. Guess we now know the answer to that.

 

Everyone is assuming Schiller's smaller boat is the AC45. May well be but the piece doesn't actually say that.

 

 

It was "Mr. Malibu" who did the interview with Larry.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There will need to be a unanimous vote in order to change the protocol. If the Italians say "fuck no" (in Italian, of course) it won't happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After all the scams they decided to decimate the AC to prevent further:

 

That the future winner ends in the half finals and therefore claims to attack the cup holder. Because it's impossible to win. (AC32)

Other Biljonaires are being made impossible to organise a normal event organisation. (AC 33)

Laughable races are organised where at the last moment the race is won through cheating and fraud. (AC 34)

Being so unsafe and fraudoulous that even their own country doesn't want to organise the race anymore. (AC35)

 

Better make it small and get rid of it. It's a soap opera!

post-17796-0-76268500-1427366376_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Casting my mind back, and I can't now find a link, didn't somebody who calls himself "Mr Hawaii" record a brief exchange of words with LE shortly after AC34 where LE suggested it should be in 45 footers next time? Was noted here at the time, nobody took it very seriously.

 

Some people have been wondering why we haven't seen a new published AC45 rule. Guess we now know the answer to that.

 

Everyone is assuming Schiller's smaller boat is the AC45. May well be but the piece doesn't actually say that.

 

It was "Mr. Malibu" who did the interview with Larry.

 

 

LE: "We'll try to make the 45 footers go just as fast". At around 01:50.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

LR will be issuing an official communiqué in the next few hours

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LR will be issuing an official communiqué in the next few hours

A dog fight in AC 62's?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

LR will be issuing an official communiqué in the next few hours

A dog fight in AC 62's?

 

 

hmmmm interesting....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

LR will be issuing an official communiqué in the next few hours

A dog fight in AC 62's?

 

 

hmmmm interesting....

 

Artemis is the CoR, correct? If so, LR would have to get that challenge set aside in order to made a DoG challenge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IIRC, LR was first in line after the Ozzies quit...

 

And it wouldn't really be a proper DoG challenge, they would just enforce the application of the current protocol - if the other challengers then bail out, it would become a straight 1 on 1 fight in AC 62's...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

LR will be issuing an official communiqué in the next few hours

A dog fight in AC 62's?

 

 

hmmmm interesting....

 

Artemis is the CoR, correct? If so, LR would have to get that challenge set aside in order to made a DoG challenge.

 

Luna Rossa is the Challenger of Record

It took it over from the Hamilton Island Yacht Club from Australia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_America's_Cup

Alpha FB above took the words rigth of my mouth.

Handy this "two new posts edited" warning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

LR will be issuing an official communiqué in the next few hours

A dog fight in AC 62's?

 

 

hmmmm interesting....

 

Artemis is the CoR, correct? If so, LR would have to get that challenge set aside in order to made a DoG challenge.

 

 

 

No, Circolo della Vela Sicilia is the Challenger or Record.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

LR will be issuing an official communiqué in the next few hours

A dog fight in AC 62's?

 

 

hmmmm interesting....

 

Artemis is the CoR, correct? If so, LR would have to get that challenge set aside in order to made a DoG challenge.

 

 

 

No, Circolo della Vela Sicilia is the Challenger or Record.

 

Right ! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“After reviewing prototypes of the new AC45 sports boats being tested on the water over the past several months, it is clear that if we raced smaller boats in 2017, we could dramatically reduce costs without sacrificing any of the spectacle or the design, engineering and athletic challenge fundamental to the America’s Cup,” said Commercial Commissioner Harvey Schiller.

 

Isn't that profound!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyway .. giving credit where credit is due .. nobody paid compliments to Peter Huston yet?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's hard to know when I get a rumor from an "informed source" if I am being fed a line of BS, or if it is wishful thinking on their part, but when the info comes from a couple of different places that have zero connection to each other, there probably is some level of truth to it.

 

No one seems to be talking much at all about this recent meeting in London, but one of the by-products that I have heard twice in the last day is that Coutts has sent around an email saying he's proposing flicking the 62 already, in favor of some version of a 45.

 

Hard to know what led to this proposal, or who would really be in favor of it. I'd guess the Kiwi's would love it. But why would Artemis or Luna Rossa (or even BAR) want to change gears and downsize already, when so much of the planning as been based on the 62?

 

So, if this rumor of Coutts making this suggestion is true, what's the motivation and who benefits the most? Who will fight back the hardest?

 

 

 

Peter, looks like this was an informed source! Maybe this source could confirm the details of the new boat? Anyway, thanks for the insight.