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gavparker

7 Broken Masts on N17's in one day!

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Nacra must be laughing all the way to the bank with this. I'm sure they're a fantastic boat to sail - the sailors love them.

 

But to say they're better value than what the T's were or an F18 option is simply wrong. Ongoing problems with foils, hulls and masts must be making these one of the most expensive boats to campaign ever.

 

I sailed the T worlds in Perth in 25 knots, a number of F18 nationals in 20+ knots and never see any of the failure levels these N17's present.

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It is a pretty big joke Gav, insider shit going on, on that decision for sure.

Aren't the 17's more expensive than the new Windrush T's? Yet has there been more than 2 rig failures since the Marstrom rigs were introduced? More than a decade ago! (Has there even been any???)

 

And similar enough cost to a Flying Phantom, yet no where near the same level of boat (The tornado's took decades to be superseded, this boat took a year), heard that they are built to an impeccable level (The phantoms), and also would rock them round a course, and produce a better spectacle to watch?

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I think you would be hard pressed finding a HP cat that would be as cost efficient to campaign as the Big T however they were not really dumped because of price. The association just did not play the political game right. I still believe they are the best boat for the Games.

 

I have heard of at least one Marstrom mast failure though........ I believe they are yet to build a mast that can take the weight of a prime mover. :D. However I believe that mast had been repaired and is still sailing.

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The Marstrom T was not the right choice for mixed teams, and that is what they wanted. I still think the F16 was a better choice than the N17, for a number of reasons, but the decision has been made.

 

As to the 7 mast breakages reported in Palma yesterday, well, frankly, from what I understand of the conditions, that could have happened in any fleet. It wasn't 20 kts, try 35kts with standing waves on the starting line. Kind of stinks that they were expensive carbon tubes, but from what I know, they aren't too much more than aluminum sticks to replace...

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I still believe they are the best boat for the Games.

Agreed, I think you want a well built boat that is seaworthy and allows the skill of the sailors to decide the gold medal. The Tornado would have met those criteria for mixed teams. (The trials demonstrated that... New, sexy looking and quirky to sail won the selection)

 

What ISAF did was select a boat that ISAF controlled the rules completely.... (aka strict SMOD... no more code zero's going upwind), was sexy looking (curved board), had the Pete Melvin/Americas Cup pedigree (state of the art) and was brand new (completely untested) and supposedly much cheaper then the T (great spreadsheet magic astericks). Cheaper would grow the sport in the world by getting more countries into the game.

 

What we have is a half baked N17, that injects a huge amount of chance in getting to the gold medal. If you crash and break stuff including the teams because the boat is not quite state of the art seaworthy....that is a huge factor in the game.

 

ISAF screwed this up. Nacra knows the fix... T foil rudders....(They could grow their market with a seaworthy boat that weekend warriors wanted) ISAF buggered the selection and development progress.

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^^^ I do agree with most of that, save the fact that the T is ideal for mixed crews, the sheet loads are higher than the N17 and the N17 sheet loads are higher than a F18. Not ideal for mixed teams!!!

 

Nacra has had a lot of ups and downs. The N20 was a great boat, but when pushed hard stuff broke and Nacra made some changes. The same happened on the Infusion, and has happened again on the 17. I'm not sure they have solved the daggerboard trunk issue for good, nor do I think they properly designed the boat to handle the abuse Olympic athletes will put on it. I also think they should have made the boat in carbon/epoxy, or at least carbon/vinylester. The cost of making a boat is in the labor, not the materials, even when you are trying save money this isn't the area to do it. Using lesser materials is a good way to sell more boats though!

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"(The trials demonstrated that... New, sexy looking and quirky to sail won the selection)"

 

I was of the impression that the boat that was selected (N17) was the one most of the sailors at the trials liked best (by coincidence perhaps it was also the boat chosen). Is it possible they wanted SMOD to avoid the gear surprises and the arms race that can happen in Olympic sailing as the richer teams do more and more tested to find the best go fast gear? The cost may be high here but everyone is playing with the same toy(level playing field). I recognize that it is far from perfect. Changes can be made as far as I understand, but obviously after the 2016 games are over.

 

I was very upset when the T was booted. I have owned a T and like sailing it much more than the F18 I currently sail, The f18 is far more practical for me.

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True the N17 with an F18 mast was the boat the sailors liked the best. (The one prototype mast broke)

True, the technical committee with Enrique Figoroa among others who liked the specs of the N17.

The specs suggested that the F16 was underpowered... and the T had much too high sheet loads for a mixed crew to have balance with crew and helm and this was the theory that led to the N17 selection.

True, the price of entry was a selection factor....

True, the argument for better materials /build technique in the build was made to control campaign costs and not persuasive to the selection process.

True, ISAF insisted on air tight One design rules to stop the culture of the T class innovating/cheating (YMMV) under the T class rules.

 

Would have been great if it worked out that way. The issue is less the selection process.... rather why was the boat not fixed in the first two years. That was a choice... It is a mistake to value crash and burn survivor racing in mulithulls over high speed tactical sailboat racing in multihulls. It does represent our niche of the sport particularly well.

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I think some who have posted in this thread should actually speak to some of the teams (as I have) who raced in this race that saw the mast breakages,as well as their support ribs (as I have) and check the facts before commenting .........the race over its duration had a massive variation in wind speeds (and direction) with peak gusts hitting 41knots.......

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I wonder how much gear breakage there was in all the other fleets sailing that day?? Serious question if anyone's got some info. It will help put the N17 durability issue into some perspective.

 

This talk of loads being too high on T's and F18's is rubbish. The mainsheet is easier to sheet on the T than an F18. The sail area of the N17 is very similar to the F18 so similar loads. The only issue on either of these boats would be the spinnaker loads, which are overcome simply with a 2-1 set up on the sheets.

 

We sailed the T worlds in January that included a warm up event. 9 days sailing over 11 days total. 3 weeks later went to the Aus F18 nationals run over 4 days. Both myself and my brother pulled up worse for wear after the F18's than the T's. Given the amount of athletic work required to keep the N17 on the water and not tipping over I can't believe they're considered an easier boat to sail for a mixed crew.

 

Nahid Gaebler works the front of the T as well as anyone. She wouldn't be considered a "big" lady by any means. She is fit but so is any world class level sailor. It's a mute excuse.

 

It is a mistake to value crash and burn survivor racing in mulithulls over high speed tactical sailboat racing in multihulls.

 

 

Stop the gear failures and let the sailors win events on their merits.

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And as for quoting prices of the 17 compared to the FP......well......you really do need to go check the facts....

 

What's the cost now for a N17? Didn't say they were the same, but said they were similar, I was under the assumption it was 30k and 40k retrospectively, but ones a bigger boat with more stuff, and the aus dollar has shot from over $1.05 to $0.75 so I can't say.

 

41 knots? Would love to see the official wind readings there

 

EDIT: Wind quote I've seen is "Sailing the Nacra today proved to be quite an athletic performance with gusts reaching over 30 knots. Only ten boats managed to finish the first race in both groups where capsizes and broken equipment was a common sight."

 

Feels a little shocking that those are the words used, and they're professional teams, with boats that can't be more than a couple years old at most

 

I think you would be hard pressed finding a HP cat that would be as cost efficient to campaign as the Big T however they were not really dumped because of price. The association just did not play the political game right. I still believe they are the best boat for the Games.

 

I have heard of at least one Marstrom mast failure though........ I believe they are yet to build a mast that can take the weight of a prime mover. :D. However I believe that mast had been repaired and is still sailing.

 

They're all repaired and working well to my knowledge (there was a couple that were in the pallet that got driven over by the truck), pretty amazing that in its own! But have any others failed...

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how did the rigs fair on the Star course? oh right...

 

What about the laser course? at least those are "cheap", though.

 

Conditions like that shit is going to break. Underspecced dental floss control lines, blocks, suspect lashings, sails from flogging, sails from people going through them, etc. shit happens.

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how did the rigs fair on the Star course? oh right...

 

What about the laser course? at least those are "cheap", though.

 

Conditions like that shit is going to break. Underspecced dental floss control lines, blocks, suspect lashings, sails from flogging, sails from people going through them, etc. shit happens.

 

How is a 105 year old design with an alloy spar and a 46 year old design with a free-standing alloy spar comparable to the N17 with a modern carbon rig? They are their own boats in their own...

 

We're all comparing similar boats, IMO 3 similar cats from cheaper to more expensive, slower to faster.

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how did the rigs fair on the Star course? oh right...

 

What about the laser course? at least those are "cheap", though.

 

Conditions like that shit is going to break. Underspecced dental floss control lines, blocks, suspect lashings, sails from flogging, sails from people going through them, etc. shit happens.

 

I don't know...that's why I asked the question.

 

Do you have the answers??

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And as for quoting prices of the 17 compared to the FP......well......you really do need to go check the facts....

 

What's the cost now for a N17? Didn't say they were the same, but said they were similar, I was under the assumption it was 30k and 40k retrospectively, but ones a bigger boat with more stuff, and the aus dollar has shot from over $1.05 to $0.75 so I can't say.

 

41 knots? Would love to see the official wind readings there

 

EDIT: Wind quote I've seen is "Sailing the Nacra today proved to be quite an athletic performance with gusts reaching over 30 knots. Only ten boats managed to finish the first race in both groups where capsizes and broken equipment was a common sight."

 

Feels a little shocking that those are the words used, and they're professional teams, with boats that can't be more than a couple years old at most

 

I think you would be hard pressed finding a HP cat that would be as cost efficient to campaign as the Big T however they were not really dumped because of price. The association just did not play the political game right. I still believe they are the best boat for the Games.

 

I have heard of at least one Marstrom mast failure though........ I believe they are yet to build a mast that can take the weight of a prime mover. :D. However I believe that mast had been repaired and is still sailing.

 

They're all repaired and working well to my knowledge (there was a couple that were in the pallet that got driven over by the truck), pretty amazing that in its own! But have any others failed...

 

Pricing:

 

I have just checked the SI FP site and the FP starts at US$ 39900 excluding tax and shipping for a white FP up to US$ 45,750 excluding tax and shipping for the zebra stripped boat and all prices in between for the various colour options......... http://www.phantom-international.com/flying-phantom/ I couldn't find pricing in Euros, GBPounds or Aus$ on the website......

 

The msrp for a new Nacra 17 today is Euro 20,680 excluding tax and shipping which converts to US$ 22,265 excluding tax and shipping...........

 

 

Wind speeds on day one:

 

I have contacted a friend of mine who was on the water on day 1 in a support rib (for one of the teams) who reported to me that gusts hit 41 knots at times and have asked to send me some official data on wind speed and direction during that first day of racing (race one in particular).......as soon as I have received it I will post it here........

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The T class has quiet a few mixed teams and Olympic female sailors would not have an issue with the loads

 

The T is significantly cheaper than a N17

 

In the conditions the N17 fleet saw, a Tornado would not have broken their carbon mast. I sailed in an Olympic class regatta that one day averaged 36 knots, gusting 41. We were the only T to fly a kite. The whole fleet, including other classes were cleaned up with the majority making it back to shore. We raced 2.5 races. First 2 races were low 30s gusting mid 30s and built for the last race.............

 

Not a single mast broke.

 

The T class played the political game wrong however the code zero had no bearing on the result.

 

The code zero was brought about because ISAF forced a change in the Tornado Class rules removing the 5 knot min wind limit for races. This then drove the development of sails for sub 5 knot sailing. This is NOT the Tornado class's fault and ISAF should take a little ownership here. At the end of the day the regatta was the windiest games in a long time and the code zero was a flop. If ISAF did not screw with the Tornado Class rules, we will not be having a conversation about code zeros

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I have just checked the SI FP site and the FP starts at US$ 39900 excluding tax and shipping for a white FP up to US$ 45,750 excluding tax and shipping for the zebra stripped boat and all prices in between for the various colour options......... http://www.phantom-international.com/flying-phantom/ I couldn't find pricing in Euros, GBPounds or Aus$ on the website......

 

The msrp for a new Nacra 17 today is Euro 20,680 excluding tax and shipping which converts to US$ 22,265 excluding tax and shipping...........

 

 

Wind speeds on day one:

 

I have contacted a friend of mine who was on the water on day 1 in a support rib (for one of the teams) who reported to me that gusts hit 41 knots at times and have asked to send me some official data on wind speed and direction during that first day of racing (race one in particular).......as soon as I have received it I will post it here........

 

 

Can you actually send me the price list for the N17 then? I was under the impression that the boat was much more expensive as only yesterday I saw one advertised for sale for 27.8k euro (year old, well used boat packed on trailer ready to be shipped). (approx. 40k aud + shipping)

 

At the same time I saw a phantom, delivered and not sailed for sale due to owners change of situation, 40k usd, so about 50k aud

 

PS. To quote that the boat can be 5k more for a silly paint job is worse than them quoting that say... you dont even offer class legal custom zebra paint jobs on your N17's so the bloody things look identical HA-HA

 

PPS. What is the price for the mast?

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I have just checked the SI FP site and the FP starts at US$ 39900 excluding tax and shipping for a white FP up to US$ 45,750 excluding tax and shipping for the zebra stripped boat and all prices in between for the various colour options......... http://www.phantom-international.com/flying-phantom/ I couldn't find pricing in Euros, GBPounds or Aus$ on the website......

 

The msrp for a new Nacra 17 today is Euro 20,680 excluding tax and shipping which converts to US$ 22,265 excluding tax and shipping...........

 

 

Wind speeds on day one:

 

I have contacted a friend of mine who was on the water on day 1 in a support rib (for one of the teams) who reported to me that gusts hit 41 knots at times and have asked to send me some official data on wind speed and direction during that first day of racing (race one in particular).......as soon as I have received it I will post it here........

 

 

Can you actually send me the price list for the N17 then? I was under the impression that the boat was much more expensive as only yesterday I saw one advertised for sale for 27.8k euro (year old, well used boat packed on trailer ready to be shipped). (approx. 40k aud + shipping)

 

At the same time I saw a phantom, delivered and not sailed for sale due to owners change of situation, 40k usd, so about 50k aud

 

PS. To quote that the boat can be 5k more for a silly paint job is worse than them quoting that say... you dont even offer class legal custom zebra paint jobs on your N17's so the bloody things look identical HA-HA

 

PPS. What is the price for the mast?

 

 

Did you check the FP link which has the pricing on it?

 

Will pm you the official price list a little later today including mast price.....

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I know there is a real desire to attack the N17 by people who support other classes that didn't get selected, but unless you were there, there is absolutely no way you can comment about why there were so many breakages. A couple of years ago, we saw exactly the same thing with the A Class when we had a lot of broken masts at the worlds. Ill informed people were screaming about how bad the A's masts were when the truth was completely different.

 

In this case, what I do know is that the N17's were out in conditions other classes didn't experience on a course others weren't on. I also believe the wind figures quoted above. Exactly why 7 masts broke I don't know, but I am prepared to wait before shouting that the masts are no good so I have all the facts. But then again, this is SA, so why let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

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A class masts can be fragile as well....... Cartwheel into the tide with the cunningham on and chances are you will break it, but then again why have you got the Cunningham on??. The Big T's mast is near on bullet proof.

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A class masts can be fragile as well....... Cartwheel into the tide with the cunningham on and chances are you will break it, but then again why have you got the Cunningham on??. The Big T's mast is near on bullet proof.

Bullshit (about the A Class masts)!

 

In 5 years of A Class sailing, I have only seen 2 broken masts from a normal capsize, and one of those was because the helm fell on the mast. All the broken masts at that particular worlds were due to the masts being bounced off something very hard. In one case it was the jetty, but in most it was off a very shallow bottom. One capsize sticks out and that was when Darren Bundock did a big pitchpole, after which his comment was that he couldn't believe that the mast had survived because it wouldn't have with any other class. Since then, we have seen people pitching the boats in going faster and harder, with no breakages. So don't try saying A class masts are fragile, because they aren't.

 

And we do now sail downhill with the cunno on, hard. With the foiling, the apparent is so far forward you just about have the same sail shape as for uphill, although looking at a lot of recent photos, it seems very few have worked this out.

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A class masts can be fragile as well....... Cartwheel into the tide with the cunningham on and chances are you will break it, but then again why have you got the Cunningham on??. The Big T's mast is near on bullet proof.

Bullshit (about the A Class masts)!

 

In 5 years of A Class sailing, I have only seen 2 broken masts from a normal capsize, and one of those was because the helm fell on the mast. All the broken masts at that particular worlds were due to the masts being bounced off something very hard. In one case it was the jetty, but in most it was off a very shallow bottom. One capsize sticks out and that was when Darren Bundock did a big pitchpole, after which his comment was that he couldn't believe that the mast had survived because it wouldn't have with any other class. Since then, we have seen people pitching the boats in going faster and harder, with no breakages. So don't try saying A class masts are fragile, because they aren't.

 

And we do now sail downhill with the cunno on, hard. With the foiling, the apparent is so far forward you just about have the same sail shape as for uphill, although looking at a lot of recent photos, it seems very few have worked this out.

 

I am pretty certain the cunningham was on as far as it would go with the Nacra 17's on race 1 given the size of the wind and in particular the gusts........that is a lot of load on the mast........but clearly Tornado_Alive knows more so who am I to argue.......and of course clearly Hall Mast aren't expert mast makers ;).........pmsl

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The code zero was brought about because ISAF forced a change in the Tornado Class rules removing the 5 knot min wind limit for races. This then drove the development of sails for sub 5 knot sailing. This is NOT the Tornado class's fault and ISAF should take a little ownership here. At the end of the day the regatta was the windiest games in a long time and the code zero was a flop. If ISAF did not screw with the Tornado Class rules, we will not be having a conversation about code zeros

Good point!...

 

ISAF are control freaks... the culture of the class which constantly sought to improve the boat for racing was an anathema to an organization that narrowly defined the ideal of Olympic racing as true one design.

 

They got what they wanted in the N17... You can't move a fitting on the boat.

 

The N17 boat needs a fix to restore the game to high performance sailboat racing... NOT crash and burn survivor sailing.... Or they need a rule change that lowers the wind limits plus gusts so that crash and burn don't determine the medals. (A benefit would be fewer sailors with catastrophic injuries)

 

This is an ISAF FUBAR.... If you want the best sailors to win the medals doing SAILING.... fix the boat or change the rules with lower wind limits. (ISAF has already mucked it up doing this once for Beijing (see Alive's point)..... how about a fix for San Paulo!

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A class masts can be fragile as well....... Cartwheel into the tide with the cunningham on and chances are you will break it, but then again why have you got the Cunningham on??. The Big T's mast is near on bullet proof.

Bullshit (about the A Class masts)!

 

In 5 years of A Class sailing, I have only seen 2 broken masts from a normal capsize, and one of those was because the helm fell on the mast. All the broken masts at that particular worlds were due to the masts being bounced off something very hard. In one case it was the jetty, but in most it was off a very shallow bottom. One capsize sticks out and that was when Darren Bundock did a big pitchpole, after which his comment was that he couldn't believe that the mast had survived because it wouldn't have with any other class. Since then, we have seen people pitching the boats in going faster and harder, with no breakages. So don't try saying A class masts are fragile, because they aren't.

 

And we do now sail downhill with the cunno on, hard. With the foiling, the apparent is so far forward you just about have the same sail shape as for uphill, although looking at a lot of recent photos, it seems very few have worked this out.

 

I am pretty certain the cunningham was on as far as it would go with the Nacra 17's on race 1 given the size of the wind and in particular the gusts........that is a lot of load on the mast........but clearly Tornado_Alive knows more so who am I to argue.......and of course clearly Hall Mast aren't expert mast makers ;).........pmsl

 

Carl, I don't want to shit on your nacra love party here, but I was in Miami coaching for the OCR and witnessed the failure of 5 masts in one day. Conditions were 25kts, flat water and masts were breaking in capsizes, one even failed whilst sailing upwind. In my experience I would say that it was not acceptable to have the rigs fail in these conditions.

 

I am sure the conditions in Palma were windy with waves, and teams were struggling to stay upright, but this is not an excuse for carbon rigs to fail.

 

In fact, its not acceptable to have them fail at all, ever in any conditions. There should have been a range of load cases defined, then the engineering based on those load cases would be sufficient to ensure that the rigs survived in these instances. If built to the specifications we would not see any failures (unless you run over it with a car...)

 

Similar answers exist for the rest of the boat, daggerboards that were cut 150mm shorter because they were too expensive to build at the original designed length... there are more issues that the teams are aware of and trying to deal with.

 

The boat was nice idea, sure the foil technology has seen it look particularly dated already, but that can be updated post 2016. What is really critical to ensure the investment of the teams committing a huge part of their lives and future incomes is that the quality is fixed.

 

Can you imagine the frustration a team feels when they have a failure like a mast in a regatta that determines their funding for the future?, or even the selection to represent their country. It is no longer just a broken piece of equipment, but a broken dream.

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A class masts can be fragile as well....... Cartwheel into the tide with the cunningham on and chances are you will break it, but then again why have you got the Cunningham on??. The Big T's mast is near on bullet proof.

Bullshit (about the A Class masts)!

 

In 5 years of A Class sailing, I have only seen 2 broken masts from a normal capsize, and one of those was because the helm fell on the mast. All the broken masts at that particular worlds were due to the masts being bounced off something very hard. In one case it was the jetty, but in most it was off a very shallow bottom. One capsize sticks out and that was when Darren Bundock did a big pitchpole, after which his comment was that he couldn't believe that the mast had survived because it wouldn't have with any other class. Since then, we have seen people pitching the boats in going faster and harder, with no breakages. So don't try saying A class masts are fragile, because they aren't.

 

And we do now sail downhill with the cunno on, hard. With the foiling, the apparent is so far forward you just about have the same sail shape as for uphill, although looking at a lot of recent photos, it seems very few have worked this out.

 

I am pretty certain the cunningham was on as far as it would go with the Nacra 17's on race 1 given the size of the wind and in particular the gusts........that is a lot of load on the mast........but clearly Tornado_Alive knows more so who am I to argue.......and of course clearly Hall Mast aren't expert mast makers ;).........pmsl

 

Carl, I don't want to shit on your nacra love party here, but I was in Miami coaching for the OCR and witnessed the failure of 5 masts in one day. Conditions were 25kts, flat water and masts were breaking in capsizes, one even failed whilst sailing upwind. In my experience I would say that it was not acceptable to have the rigs fail in these conditions.

 

I am sure the conditions in Palma were windy with waves, and teams were struggling to stay upright, but this is not an excuse for carbon rigs to fail.

 

In fact, its not acceptable to have them fail at all, ever in any conditions. There should have been a range of load cases defined, then the engineering based on those load cases would be sufficient to ensure that the rigs survived in these instances. If built to the specifications we would not see any failures (unless you run over it with a car...)

 

Similar answers exist for the rest of the boat, daggerboards that were cut 150mm shorter because they were too expensive to build at the original designed length... there are more issues that the teams are aware of and trying to deal with.

 

The boat was nice idea, sure the foil technology has seen it look particularly dated already, but that can be updated post 2016. What is really critical to ensure the investment of the teams committing a huge part of their lives and future incomes is that the quality is fixed.

 

Can you imagine the frustration a team feels when they have a failure like a mast in a regatta that determines their funding for the future?, or even the selection to represent their country. It is no longer just a broken piece of equipment, but a broken dream.

 

Hi Macca,

You can try and shit over the Nacra party if you want.........but I think you might struggle ;) Can you please check the numbers over broken Laser rigs and 470 rigs on day 1 of Palma and then respond? Interestingly having chatted with some of the teams and the Nacra core crew the issue with mast breakage on capsize is more to do with performance gains down wind in big breezes.......big amounts of cunningham down wind in big breezes produces higher speed, but when you crash you always have a rig risk with full cunningham.......so really a big test of pure boat speed against sailing skill to get the best out of the boat in a big breeze........Billy Besson seems to have it sussed (amongst others).......lessons to be learnt by the others Macca.........

 

N.B. As for the 150mm shorter boards being down to expense......bullshit...............

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A class masts can be fragile as well....... Cartwheel into the tide with the cunningham on and chances are you will break it, but then again why have you got the Cunningham on??. The Big T's mast is near on bullet proof.

Bullshit (about the A Class masts)!

 

In 5 years of A Class sailing, I have only seen 2 broken masts from a normal capsize, and one of those was because the helm fell on the mast. All the broken masts at that particular worlds were due to the masts being bounced off something very hard. In one case it was the jetty, but in most it was off a very shallow bottom. One capsize sticks out and that was when Darren Bundock did a big pitchpole, after which his comment was that he couldn't believe that the mast had survived because it wouldn't have with any other class. Since then, we have seen people pitching the boats in going faster and harder, with no breakages. So don't try saying A class masts are fragile, because they aren't.

 

And we do now sail downhill with the cunno on, hard. With the foiling, the apparent is so far forward you just about have the same sail shape as for uphill, although looking at a lot of recent photos, it seems very few have worked this out.

 

I am pretty certain the cunningham was on as far as it would go with the Nacra 17's on race 1 given the size of the wind and in particular the gusts........that is a lot of load on the mast........but clearly Tornado_Alive knows more so who am I to argue.......and of course clearly Hall Mast aren't expert mast makers ;).........pmsl

 

Ooops.......I meant Hall Spars not Hall Masts.....

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A class masts can be fragile as well....... Cartwheel into the tide with the cunningham on and chances are you will break it, but then again why have you got the Cunningham on??. The Big T's mast is near on bullet proof.

Bullshit (about the A Class masts)!

 

In 5 years of A Class sailing, I have only seen 2 broken masts from a normal capsize, and one of those was because the helm fell on the mast. All the broken masts at that particular worlds were due to the masts being bounced off something very hard. In one case it was the jetty, but in most it was off a very shallow bottom. One capsize sticks out and that was when Darren Bundock did a big pitchpole, after which his comment was that he couldn't believe that the mast had survived because it wouldn't have with any other class. Since then, we have seen people pitching the boats in going faster and harder, with no breakages. So don't try saying A class masts are fragile, because they aren't.

 

And we do now sail downhill with the cunno on, hard. With the foiling, the apparent is so far forward you just about have the same sail shape as for uphill, although looking at a lot of recent photos, it seems very few have worked this out.

 

I am pretty certain the cunningham was on as far as it would go with the Nacra 17's on race 1 given the size of the wind and in particular the gusts........that is a lot of load on the mast........but clearly Tornado_Alive knows more so who am I to argue.......and of course clearly Hall Mast aren't expert mast makers ;).........pmsl

 

Carl, I don't want to shit on your nacra love party here, but I was in Miami coaching for the OCR and witnessed the failure of 5 masts in one day. Conditions were 25kts, flat water and masts were breaking in capsizes, one even failed whilst sailing upwind. In my experience I would say that it was not acceptable to have the rigs fail in these conditions.

 

I am sure the conditions in Palma were windy with waves, and teams were struggling to stay upright, but this is not an excuse for carbon rigs to fail.

 

In fact, its not acceptable to have them fail at all, ever in any conditions. There should have been a range of load cases defined, then the engineering based on those load cases would be sufficient to ensure that the rigs survived in these instances. If built to the specifications we would not see any failures (unless you run over it with a car...)

 

Similar answers exist for the rest of the boat, daggerboards that were cut 150mm shorter because they were too expensive to build at the original designed length... there are more issues that the teams are aware of and trying to deal with.

 

The boat was nice idea, sure the foil technology has seen it look particularly dated already, but that can be updated post 2016. What is really critical to ensure the investment of the teams committing a huge part of their lives and future incomes is that the quality is fixed.

 

Can you imagine the frustration a team feels when they have a failure like a mast in a regatta that determines their funding for the future?, or even the selection to represent their country. It is no longer just a broken piece of equipment, but a broken dream.

 

Hi Macca,

You can try and shit over the Nacra party if you want.........but I think you might struggle ;) Can you please check the numbers over broken Laser rigs and 470 rigs on day 1 of Palma and then respond? Interestingly having chatted with some of the teams and the Nacra core crew the issue with mast breakage on capsize is more to do with performance gains down wind in big breezes.......big amounts of cunningham down wind in big breezes produces higher speed, but when you crash you always have a rig risk with full cunningham.......so really a big test of pure boat speed against sailing skill to get the best out of the boat in a big breeze........Billy Besson seems to have it sussed (amongst others).......lessons to be learnt by the others Macca.........

 

N.B. As for the 150mm shorter boards being down to expense......bullshit...............

 

Carl,

 

Nobody cares about the 470 or laser rigs, the N17 was designed and engineered in a period where the tools are freely available to both understand the loads and engineer-build accordingly. The older boats are running on a legacy that whilst is unfortunate and costly for the people sailing those classes, it does not give Nacra an excuse for a sub standard product.

 

You are essentially claiming that its Ok for a new car to break down because you have seen plenty of old shitters on the side of the road broken down. The logic is flawed.

 

As I stated in my original post, the load cases should have defined the situations you describe (downwind with cunningham max on, mast rotation all the way in and let the mainsheet go) if the mast was engineered and then build with those cases in mind then we would not see broken masts.

 

As for the foil shortening episode, I will call your bluff on that. Show me the performance based justification for the foils being chopped and I will show you very clear evidence for the economic reason to cut them shorter. We can let the viewers decide who is talking bullshit.

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I have seen several snap due to this Simon and this is at your Farkurnell....... Before you even arrived at the club. These incidents were discussed by the A sailors at the time and established the cunno contributed to the breakage so take a deep breath.

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Interestingly having chatted with some of the teams and the Nacra core crew the issue with mast breakage on capsize is more to do with performance gains down wind in big breezes.......big amounts of cunningham down wind in big breezes produces higher speed, but when you crash you always have a rig risk with full cunningham.......

Nacraman, I guess this is the risk sailors will take. I am sure rig failures won't be anywhere near what we see in the 49er class. I have to give credit to the Tornado class resisting the temptation of designing a very light carbon mast and building a very robust, still lighter than alloy mast. Perhaps Nacra could have followed a similar path in hindsight.

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I have seen several snap due to this Simon and this is at your Farkurnell....... Before you even arrived at the club. These incidents were discussed by the A sailors at the time and established the cunno contributed to the breakage so take a deep breath.

 

Thiats 10 years ago.... I can tell you i have had some setious crashes and i have never broken a stick and i also use a fair bit if cunno

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Interestingly having chatted with some of the teams and the Nacra core crew the issue with mast breakage on capsize is more to do with performance gains down wind in big breezes.......big amounts of cunningham down wind in big breezes produces higher speed, but when you crash you always have a rig risk with full cunningham.......so really a big test of pure boat speed against sailing skill to get the best out of the boat in a big breeze........Billy Besson seems to have it sussed (amongst others).......lessons to be learnt by the others Macca.........

 

 

It's a very expensive lesson to expect sailors and teams to fund. You can talk about Laser, 470 and Star masts all you like but they're not US$5k+ to replace. At that price the engineering needs to be better. And this is over multiple regatta's. It's not a one off freak occurrence. There's simply a suitability gap between the performance of the boat relative to the mast and that's not acceptable.

 

That's not shitting over the Nacra party. It's a simple fact and I'm surprised you're expecting sailors to accept it.

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Thanks Demon, that was between 2000 and 2008. I have not really been around A sailors for the last 6 years and obviously a few things have changed :D. Do you know what changes they made to the masts. Better construction, a little more material/weight?

 

I would imagine it is fair to say you will get away with a lot more with a T mast than an A or N17 due to how overbuilt the Marstrom stick is.

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All the broken masts in Miami SWC happened from fully inverting the boats in less depth water then the height of the rig and having maximum cunningham. The TWS when all those rigs broke exceeded 25 knots and no mast broke while standing up like you try lead readers to believe Macca. I was there, but obviously more involved in the process since you seem only intent with shitting on this discussion. Are you here in Palma right now? Were you here when it was gusting above 40 knots? We were on a special course area for the Nacra racing only. If any of you have spent anytime racing in Palma, you would know how diverse the bay can be as far as wind conditions go. The only reason even 10 boats finished that race is because of the level of talent and sheer will power some of these guys have. Nobody died luckily, but any past or present Olympic class dinghy in those conditions would have suffered the same or worse. I believe there are some area's that the N17 can be improved of course but it is still the best boat for this category compared to the Tornado/F-18/F-16 and also way more fun and challenging to sail. Also I think the N17 is cheaper then a 470 and 49er/FX..

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Ian,

 

I was in Miami, on a coach boat. I saw one rig fail whilst sailing upwind. I also saw two rigs fail immediately upon hitting the water in a capsize. I know what I witnessed and am happy with my eyesight. So you are incorrect that the failures were from hitting the bottom of the bay. Ask Kostas or Euan if their rigs failed from hitting the bottom or if they failed in the microsecond the rig hit the water? Same story for Palma, I doubt anyone hit the bottom out there!

 

I am sure it was gusting to 500kts in palma, but the simple fact is that the masts should not break. The boat should capsize before the mast breaks. It is a simple calculation of Righting moment that can be applied to the rig, then add the factors of drag and specific load cases such as a nose dive at 20deg bow down at 25kts speed and the resulting deceleration loads need to be less than the yield point of the mast. Do this correct and the mast should not break in a capsize. its not rocket surgery here. its simple 1. Design 2. Engineer 3. Build. If you do all three correct then you don't have the shit results from Miami and Palma.

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If you guys keep grinding away on those axes you're gonna have the ends off of your fingers!

 

The class is there in the 5 ring circus and plenty of crews want to sail it. Until the boat gets sorted, no one outside the 5RC will want to. Believe it or not, that is progress from where the ITA left things!

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Please explain how the ITA left behind this mess. The T exited the games as the most refind OD cat in the world and has always had a strong, dedicated following outside th 5RC.

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Hi Macca,

 

Please, when you mentionned Florida, is it about N17 or A-Cat world ?

 

Above, it is mentionned or suggested that Tornado mast structural engineering, has been performed under the kind control of ITA?

 

Did I understand well ?

 

imho, a bit more disclosure on this point, could be very interesting for other series.

 

Thanks

 

Benchy

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Miami ocr regatta January 2015.

 

The old tornado mast was designed and engineered in house at Marstrom. The fact that it is as resilient as it has proven to be is suprising for a Marstrom product, he was always pushing the limits, but the mast came out really nice.

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Come on Macca! Are you unable to post without having a dig at somebody who doesn't employ you. There was absolutely no need to dis Goran like that. Intended or not, your post implies that Marstrom didn't build resilient products. I seem to remember that Marstrom Tornado's were known for being bomb proof and stayed competitive for years and years. His A's were the strongest A's I have seen and also last forever. How can people trust your objectivity when you write bullshit like that?

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Simon. I was not having a go at Marstrom at all!! For the people in the know and with extensive experience using his gear he was well known for pushing the limits, we were all cool with it, it's what we wanted!! He tried some crazy light and tricky solutions both for the tornado, a cat and M20 over the years. Some were good. Others not so much. He was pretty hard to convince some things needed upspeccing sometimes like the 6 different times we blew the mast base up on the M20, we kept asking for a different laminate. And he kept sending the same version back. Eventually we got the spec changed and all was good.

 

The tornado rig never had any serious issues. I remember there were a few hiccups with some fittings on the rig not being quite right. But the fundamental tube was really good.

 

The mast was great, we liked it. Shame the profile was still old school. But as a solution it worked great.

 

Much rather have the Marstrom solution with a reliable rig and teardrop section. Than a new wing shape and pray it holds for a regatta.

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Simon,

 

It is common knowledge Goran is a "Hitec Master" and it's a no brainer about that.

But I think Macca is right on one point: Goran like to "push the enveloppe"

When you friend Glenn won his first world title in Spain a long time ago, at least one if not a few beautiful Marstrom masts broke,

and I was very surprised to see how thin was the laminate,in one case it was just above the hound where the tapering starts.

 

It doesn't change the fact Goran is second to none in this kind of composite technology.

 

Thanks Macca for the precisions.

 

Best regards

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Quote: "Please, when you mentioned Florida, is it about N17 or A-Cat world ?

imho, a bit more disclosure on this point, could be very interesting for other series.

Benchy"

 

The 2012 A-cat Worlds at Islamorada was "The Hurricane Sandy Regatta". My P rudder casting broke just before the finish in the first race probably from hitting a big clump of weed. imho the wind was blowing 22-25 k onshore with gusts over 28k, and this was with 150 miles of fetch downwind from Hurricane Sandy whose eye was just passing thru the Bahamas. Yes, there were big choppy waves in the shallow water inside the reef. Guess why.

 

I personally helped Nathan Outerridge carry his broken rudders and broken C-boards back to the DNA factory container. The container tech guy, when asked why so much gear broke, peered down thru his little round eyeglasses and replied to us, "Too much Veed!"

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Still waiting for an answer on why the sticks broke in Palma...running too much cunni isn't really a good excuse.

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Still waiting for an answer on why the sticks broke in Palma...running too much cunni isn't really a good excuse.

 

From what I've heard, the sticks are *really* stiff - and the teams are running shitloads of diamond tension on them. So much so that the tension is "off the scale" of traditional measuring devices.

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Not really sure why that matters. FYI, N20 (old N20) masts aren't warrantied past 36 on the Loos Pro gauge...we run past 40 regularly. Sticks are still in one piece...I only know of a handful of N20 masts that have broken and those are under extenuating circumstances (mast hitting bottom, diamond wire failure). My point is the same as Maccas, the N17 sticks shouldn't break under normal sailing conditions.

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For your entertainment;

this video shows a N17 heat all the way thru. A nice change from the average 2 minute video made of 2 second clips.

The announcer claimed that the boats run 30,000 euro and a mast is 7,000. He also mentioned that some of the boats are slower because of how critical the angle of incidence and angle of attack of the boards is. Presumably that could be tuned up with careful work in the work shop.

The cats are shown around the last hour of the vid.

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Not really sure why that matters. FYI, N20 (old N20) masts aren't warrantied past 36 on the Loos Pro gauge...we run past 40 regularly. Sticks are still in one piece...I only know of a handful of N20 masts that have broken and those are under extenuating circumstances (mast hitting bottom, diamond wire failure). My point is the same as Maccas, the N17 sticks shouldn't break under normal sailing conditions.

From what I understand, its past 40 on the gauge by a substantial amount. And comparing the N17 stick to the old N20's telephone pole carbon sticks isn't fair to the N17. Those N20 masts are an outlier amongst "modern" cat carbon masts. Not to mention they're 45lbs with no hardware on them. Not exactly a featherlight mast.

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How many more broken masts this week???

This is getting insane, who can afford all these rigs?

 

Seen numerous pics of different boats with broken rigs, or no rigs.

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Can't remember where I saw them all (linked somewhere from CSN), but saw another few here:

 

Also to add fuel to the fire, seen a few pics of rudders broken off... Accompanied by a comment regarding rudder failure not being rare, and no contact with the rudder...

 

At least half a dozen rigs

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10515362_450046405199707_564727692841543

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He also mentioned that some of the boats are slower because of how critical the angle of incidence and angle of attack of the boards is. Presumably that could be tuned up with careful work in the work shop.

Is that the sort of careful work required after hitting a sand bank?

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i wonder what all that emerging nation bs was about during the boat selection process. From what is written on the internets, there are apparently only around 15 countries allowed to actually race N17s in the olympics, and usa is down to the wire looking like they won't make it in.

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Well... there are 20 boats going to Rio. The ISAF goal was to increase tne number of countries competing... So... you need to look at the gold cup events and evaluate if more countries are seeing an opportunity to medal and jumping in.... With the regional spots the only ones left to award... It looks like increased competition has indeed affected all of the North American teams..... Only one spot left for Can, USA, Puerto Rico, to go for. Looks to me like the qualification process has had more impact then "low cost"

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