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couchsurfer

...IC kit...'machete'...'

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What time of summer are you talking about? like in the next month or two or more like end of summer (so late August or September time) so that the kits are ready to be assembled in the winter months?

They're filling in the excess space in the c-class container heading for Geneva in August. Complex world, strange upsides. Its also worth noting that a machete kit box is smaller than a moth box so you can totally check one as baggage for air travel.

DRC

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thanks, yep i generally associate grinders with chopping up rusted metal trailers, probably where my expertise lays.

 

 

Dave, you may not be able to answer - can we bring timber into Oz like that or does it have to go through quarantine etc

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thanks, yep i generally associate grinders with chopping up rusted metal trailers, probably where my expertise lays.

 

 

Dave, you may not be able to answer - can we bring timber into Oz like that or does it have to go through quarantine etc

 

It does need to be inspected by customs for Australia. On the upside, i know for a fact that my okume is free of gypsy moths.

DRC

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thanks, yep i generally associate grinders with chopping up rusted metal trailers, probably where my expertise lays.

 

 

Dave, you may not be able to answer - can we bring timber into Oz like that or does it have to go through quarantine etc

It does need to be inspected by customs for Australia. On the upside, i know for a fact that my okume is free of gypsy moths.

DRC

Actually I might be conveniently wrong. For the EU at least, plywood is explicitly exempted from import controls. Pine appears to be the major suspect. Australian government databases turn up no restrictions on plywood. So I might have to dump the pine sticks from international versions and ship in carboard boxes rather than the crates I use now. But for the savings in hassle, one can buy a cheap table-saw and mill that stuff at home. Hooray for sensible governments.

DRC

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If you get the pine treated and stamped such as they do with pallets then it should be all good Dave. Or an alternative could be plastic box

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If you get the pine treated and stamped such as they do with pallets then it should be all good Dave. Or an alternative could be plastic box

I wonder if painting the box might be a way around perhaps?

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thanks, yep i generally associate grinders with chopping up rusted metal trailers, probably where my expertise lays.

 

 

Grindr is also an app for android and ios that is great for picking up last minute rail meat.

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thanks, yep i generally associate grinders with chopping up rusted metal trailers, probably where my expertise lays.

 

Grindr is also an app for android and ios that is great for picking up last minute rail meat.

I don't think that's quite the meaning of the words "rail" and "meat" that you'll find on that app.....

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Dave,

 

400 hours equates to 50 x 8 hour days or roughly seven weeks of work, i know the weekend warrior is slow - but that seems excessively slow.

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Dave,

 

400 hours equates to 50 x 8 hour days or roughly seven weeks of work, i know the weekend warrior is slow - but that seems excessively slow.

 

It's a pretty pessimistic estimate in an attempt to not mislead anybody. Bear in mind that its a 28kg 17 foot long stiff hull made out of cheap materials. The factor that makes this possible is man hours, plain and simple. It's a great big complicated jigsaw puzzle. I'm pretty sure I could do it in three weeks but I've done this dance a few times before. Home buikding for the first time takes a good long while and any boat that takes a few weekends to build is going to be crap unless you own a very good mold and a vaccuum pump, which most people don't. It is what it is.

DRC

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Can the process be accelerated by the use of fancy-pants tools (obviously it's not practical to assume that everyone has them, but some people have access to shops of some level or another)?

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Boat building Time is very odd though, because curing time seems to come into it so much, at least when I do it. eight one hour sessions in the evenings seem to be worth more than one eight-hour day. maybe i'm under organised though.

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Building anything takes time. Sounds to me like the kit facilitates very reasonable build times

while keeping the risk of creating something that is unusable very low.

 

I am sure as people buy the kits, there will be plenty of posts with how to's, pictures and improvements.

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Rhet,

Absolutely. Good tools take time right out of the process. Part of my estimate's length is a function of some actions I took to keep myself in touch with my ease of build objective. I deliberately built the boat in a rented storage shed 400 miles from the main workshop with nothing but a basic set of tools and a really chaotic shop layout. This was to keep the process brutal and force me to figure out low cost easy ways to do a bunch of jobs. That worked, but time to build took a hit.

 

Jim,

You're completely right. That's one of the reasons why it's so hard to really judge the amount of hours required as opposed to hours involved.

 

Usa7776,

Risk reduction was a big part of the inspiration for this. Machete was partially born out of watching home builders on the DC designs thread for so many years. It seemed to me that a lot of energy, enthusiasm and more often than not genius went into them but somewhere along the line, be it hullshape, or mass or strength (too much or too little), you'd get burned. Some could pull it off but (surprise surprise) most of those people were or had been pro builders or were at least veteran homebuilders like phil stevenson. I figured it was far better to offer a kit package of an optimized hullshape, structure and achievale weight and let the enthusiasm of home builders actually pay off.

 

DRC

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Rhet,

Absolutely. Good tools take time right out of the process. Part of my estimate's length is a function of some actions I took to keep myself in touch with my ease of build objective. I deliberately built the boat in a rented storage shed 400 miles from the main workshop with nothing but a basic set of tools and a really chaotic shop layout. This was to keep the process brutal and force me to figure out low cost easy ways to do a bunch of jobs. That worked, but time to build took a hit.

Jim,

You're completely right. That's one of the reasons why it's so hard to really judge the amount of hours required as opposed to hours involved.

Usa7776,

Risk reduction was a big part of the inspiration for this. Machete was partially born out of watching home builders on the DC designs thread for so many years. It seemed to me that a lot of energy, enthusiasm and more often than not genius went into them but somewhere along the line, be it hullshape, or mass or strength (too much or too little), you'd get burned. Some could pull it off but (surprise surprise) most of those people were or had been pro builders or were at least veteran homebuilders like phil stevenson. I figured it was far better to offer a kit package of an optimized hullshape, structure and achievale weight and let the enthusiasm of home builders actually pay off.

DRC

That is dedication to the concept. i think 200 miles from the main shop would have sufficed.

 

I realize this will a more complicated build than say a stitch and glue kayak but is it possible that a long weekend build class could make significant progress and give builders a jump start and get them past some of the initial possible missteps?

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I realize this will a more complicated build than say a stitch and glue kayak but is it possible that a long weekend build class could make significant progress and give builders a jump start and get them past some of the initial possible missteps?

Yup, that would definitely be doable. A lot of it comes down to getting the glue cures harmonized with the hundred other jobs well enough that everything stacks up effectively. Incorporating the 30 foot oven wouldn't hurt either.... hmmm. Round up some interested friends and PM me. I think it can be arranged.

DRC

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Additionally, back to the build time question, more data is on the way. There's a machete kit in a garage in Wisconsin right now and the owner has said he's interested in documenting the process and building it at a relatively quick pace. Here's looking forward to it.

DRC

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So true about epoxy cure times, although watching epoxy cure is slightly more exciting than watching grass grow :rolleyes: The thing about most custom builds is that a lot of time goes into working out how to do the next step, making patterns for parts and so on. One hopes that having pre-cut parts and a set of drawings would go a long way to reducing the thinking time.

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From the veteran home builder position, a lot of time is saved by getting the odd hour in after dinner weekdays where you can shape and glue something together which enables something bigger to be completed the following day. Building a boat involves a thousand small tasks all added together, many need cure times in between, so allocating a lot of small perods of your time is often better value than allocating a few whole days a week. Having the workshop at home helps, 200 miles or even an hour away is not helpful. Supportive home life is a must.

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What a wonderful positive thread...hands on lovin it...and wishin I was younger...you got it, do it!

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From the veteran home builder position, a lot of time is saved by getting the odd hour in after dinner weekdays where you can shape and glue something together which enables something bigger to be completed the following day. Building a boat involves a thousand small tasks all added together, many need cure times in between, so allocating a lot of small perods of your time is often better value than allocating a few whole days a week. Having the workshop at home helps, 200 miles or even an hour away is not helpful. Supportive home life is a must.

Very well said. Doesn't matter what size boat either.

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I want one

 

I can't have one

 

I need one

How can I help you in removing the second line from that haiku?

DRC

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As a 16 year old with limited space and boatbuilding ability it would be a project..

 

Awesome boat though.

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As a 16 year old with limited space and boatbuilding ability it would be a project..

 

Awesome boat though.

Between age 16 and 18, I built 3 wood boats, hit every party worth hitting, went to school, and had a job.

You can do it, you just need to have the balls to take the first step.

I had zero boatbuilding experience when I started, although I had done a semester of woodworking in 10th grade, so I did know how to cut, plane, and join wood at a very basic level.

As a guy that has done a lot of different projects over the years I can tell you, building a wood boat is one of the most enjoyable things you can do.

Start checking with your friends and family, someone will have a space that you can use to build in, you don't need much.

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Slip Knot +1.

 

You take the plunge. My first boat was a 110 with dry rotted oak keel frames...in the days before the internet and when Gary Comer sold hardware and good advice at Lands End on Elston in Chicago...two months later, a rule braking, advance in the class (which soon adopted the changes (trap and Hexaratchet controlled genoa, instead of bronze winch on bridge deck). Wood experience is gold. You will learn so much. Boat still sailing...and I wish I had kept the original winch...my only mistake.

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post-38311-0-21137900-1433145767_thumb.jpg

post-38311-0-57901800-1433145881_thumb.jpg

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I'm tempted..so tempted. It's a matter of getting funds and selling the 14 and 505 first..

 

These boats are so stinking cool

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I'm tempted..so tempted. It's a matter of getting funds and selling the 14 and 505 first..

 

These boats are so stinking cool

 

why would you ever do that? the IC class is even more dead than the 14 and 505 classes in the US. At least the 505 and 14 have well-attended World Championships that occur every year and high level sailors that participate

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There's a wide variety of reasons. The 505 is 40 years old and in no way competetive. The 14 is 10 years old and already absolete in the class. The pain of rustling up crew and using a trailer etc is a pain for me at this point. With an IC I can throw it on the roof and be sailing in half the time and none of the hassle of finding someone else to go sailing.

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I'm tempted..so tempted. It's a matter of getting funds and selling the 14 and 505 first..

These boats are so stinking cool

 

why would you ever do that? the IC class is even more dead than the 14 and 505 classes in the US. At least the 505 and 14 have well-attended World Championships that occur every year and high level sailors that participate

Ummmm... I and every canoe sailor in the world take extreme offense to that...

Try sailing an IC and tell me that the front of the pack at a canoe worlds isn't crammed with high level sailors. Yes, they occur every 3 years but the upside to that is that a canoe world championship isn't a glorified nationals. The ratio of other countries sailors to aussies at the sorrento worlds was pretty depressing. Also, with the "quality of sailor" question shelved in the pile marked 'ignorance' you're left with an argument about fleet size. If fleet size mattered, we would all sail lasers.

DRC

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Whoops, I meant geelong. Had my sides of port phillip bay mixed up. In other news, stay tuned for more vidoes. I may have got a film crew lined up to shoot the canoe fleet racing at the wickford regatta this weekend. Machete vs. Dance Commander round 2 coming soon!

DRC

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There's a wide variety of reasons. The 505 is 40 years old and in no way competetive. The 14 is 10 years old and already absolete in the class. The pain of rustling up crew and using a trailer etc is a pain for me at this point. With an IC I can throw it on the roof and be sailing in half the time and none of the hassle of finding someone else to go sailing.

Exactly the reasons I bought the HOOT.

Fast, light, simple to rig, challenging, and fun to sail, there are very, very few boats that hit all those points.

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Excuse my dimness...

 

When you noted "14" I thought "International 14..."

 

Been around longer than me and Doc Walker...major development class, might have even spawned 505s. Used to ride one...a wood one.

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Excuse my dimness...

 

When you noted "14" I thought "International 14..."

 

Been around longer than me and Doc Walker...major development class, might have even spawned 505s. Used to ride one...a wood one.

I do believe that's what he meant. But the designs there change so fast that a boat that's 10 years old is in no way competitive, never mind the fun bits about keeping one of those boats running.

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that's right, everyone, free shipping to Europe this summer for machete kits

After getting all excited on the last page I've moved house and have no money :(

 

But do have an almost 40ft garage :)

 

I'll be in touch once the dust settles (we're sanding the floorboards).

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Appreciate the heads-up on the 14...I stopped sailing one about the time Walker cut up a wood boat and glued it together...wood is a wonderment...IMHO, beats glass everytime, but too many people means few trees etc, so the good stuff is gone and plastic rules...sadly...just MHO.

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Appreciate the heads-up on the 14...I stopped sailing one about the time Walker cut up a wood boat and glued it together...wood is a wonderment...IMHO, beats glass everytime, but too many people means few trees etc, so the good stuff is gone and plastic rules...sadly...just MHO.

Actually there's an interesting component to that. Trees are the most effective carbon capture technology available and okume plywood is grown on plantations. So in a weird way, building a boat out of wood is better for the environment because you're storing atmospheric carbon in boat form. If it is maintained and well kept, it can store that co2 for a really long time. The next step is going to FSC certified wood, which is only cut down after the tree's lifespan is properly finished as deemed by quite excellent forestry professionals. The next machete I build might be an experiment into that. I'm thinking I'd call her Twig. The amount of spent 420s that will last in landfills for 2000 years thanks to their miraculous 'durability' is just wrong. At least wood biodegrades when you're finished with it.

DRC

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Makes sense to me...interesting aside I never thought of until your (DC) comment; have an acquaintance who lives near Ashland, WI., and resurrects whole logs lost to the water in the 17th and 18th century...Kiln dried and recycled...and, as long as recycling...I am assembling (finally) an outrigger made from a castoff Hobie 18 and 16 hulls and some 6061 tubes and carbon for spars...had to try multi hull venture.

 

Pic is plan and is a Malibu Outrigger basic design...lots of crafting I did not expect...wood would have been easier, but no guilt here.

 

 

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That's pretty neat. Actually part of what started me down the machete path a few years back was the idea of recycling everything but the hull off old penultimate ICs onto a new super sharp wood hull. I've flirted with doing it on the I14 too because, much like Sarc, I also have an uncompetitive 12 year old bieker 2 hanging in my rafters. All told, there's a lot of fast components sitting around all over the world looking for new purposes.

DRC

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Off topic, but when you say IC, I know now it means Int Canoe...but I think of the venerable Interclub, once the max college boat, now seems confined to frostbite racing...sadly.

 

Here is a fleet from November 27th, 1972...Belmont Harbor, Chicago...

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two words:

 

Torch Kits

You mean like laser torch? The kit streaker is kind of already there, though Butler Boats doesn't really step outside the UK, so I guess there's a potential. However, I would really prefer to stick to high performance classes. Also, of places where a kit would be allowed, the strict one design community, I suspect, isn't it. If I made a kit 29er, the sad fact is that the kids sailing it would be firmly told to not cross the starting line. That is the hell of one-design sailing. Box rule classes give a nicer time to a home builder, since missing a centimeter here and there probably doesn't render your boat illegal. The boat I've been hankering to kit lately is the 110, which is beneficially flat-panelled and thus easy to assemble. The other thing that's on my mind is a boat designed to steal all the parts from a ruined laser, take a nicer sail and have more righting moment, a tad less wetted surface and less hull weight. But then I'm getting ahead of myself. Starting a new class doesn't work without at least two human sacrifices.

DRC

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Hate to double post but I absolutely have to share these pictures. Cate Brown used a great lens on a great day and these wickford regatta pictures of Machete, Dance Commander and others are just gorgeous.

DRC

http://www.catebrownphoto.com/#!/portfolio/C0000LDcwxFmyyag/G0000MMjTlM3u0Q8/I0000BXuxbAA__00

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Great pictures. Machte looks great. A question from a noob, a few of those boats (228 and 249) also look like they are built of wood. Are these also of a similar plywood construction? I assume one is Dance Commander?

The green one is Dance Commander which was built by me from plywood in a press jig. The other is Witzelsucht, built two years earlier by my dad using the dark art of freehand tortured plywood. Dance Commander has the same type of "rings&stringers" internal structure as Machete and served as the structural template. Wietzelsucht has a composite internal structure with foam bulkheads and ended up being overweight as a consequence. Ironic really.

DRC

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Great pictures. Machte looks great. A question from a noob, a few of those boats (228 and 249) also look like they are built of wood. Are these also of a similar plywood construction? I assume one is Dance Commander?

The green one is Dance Commander which was built by me from plywood in a press jig. The other is Witzelsucht, built two years earlier by my dad using the dark art of freehand tortured plywood. Dance Commander has the same type of "rings&stringers" internal structure as Machete and served as the structural template. Wietzelsucht has a composite internal structure with foam bulkheads and ended up being overweight as a consequence. Ironic really.

DRC

 

Any links with descriptions of each type? Just curious.

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Any links with descriptions of each type? Just curious.

 

 

Pop over to the DC designs thread. It has the whole design saga going back to 2008 when we opened up the box rule, as well as a bunch of asinine rambling from me two years ago talking about what I thought were conceivable objectives. Simply put, Wietztelsucht is a Chris Maas 'Super String Theory' hull with slightly finer bow. After it and its sister ship were built, my dad had the two hulls scanned and refined the design a bit further. Dance Commander is even finer in the bow than Wietzelshuct and has a slightly more gentle, less fanned stern, and a touch more rocker. Machete is finer still and even gentler in the stern but is double chined so there's a very slight penalty in wetted surface. On the upside, in flat water downwind you can deploy "scow mode" and ride the bilges to decrease the effective beam of your displacement-mode hullshape.

DRC

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Ex vid. Thanks. Old I-14 jock was reminded of why he bailed from 14s to keelers...fun, but way too much work to enjoy sail, but to each his or her own...I mean we have women who qualify as Rangers, who will never do what rangers are supposed to do, so...and nice boat. Looks well attended and built.

 

So, the hiking seat oesn't "throw" its a wash?

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Sooooooo Machete has an article in Seahorse, which I've been very politely permitted to share a scan of. Give it a read if you, like me, enjoy picking over what's been ailing dinghy sailing for decades.

https://www.facebook.com/fulcrumspeedworks/posts/1638675779714799
DRC

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I avoid FB and the wee boats now make my bollocks quake but Clark item is decent...and if I were younger...way out in front of the pack.

 

Now I am content with the other IC's (Inter Club) and would gladly trade my refurbed Kite for one.

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The article in Seahorse about Dave Clark and Machete and the general thoughts and philosophy of Dave should be required reading for all small boat / dinghy sailors / racers regardless of which class they sail. The reproduction of the article on the Fulcrum Speedworks Facebook page (see link above) is easy to read.

 

Dave - when can we expect to see Machete gracing the cover of WoodenBoat magazine with an associated well written article?

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true dat. Although it'll be grossly misunderstood since it's not made out of whole trees. I recall the Swift Solo one several years ago.

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What beam is machete?

 

Do you think this double chined hull would work on something which is 12ft long and 800 wide? (12ft skiff but more like a UK Cherub) would have tube wings to get the boat out to make beam.

 

How do you set up the bulkheads to build the boat? are the stringers all that hold it together until the skins are put on?

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Update? How many Kit sold so far and to whom? Any on the water yet? Hows the foot Dave?

Very few. The pre-orders list is actually quite long but the number of people who have actually pulled the trigger is really low as of yet. Foots back to normal and I'm back in the shop building Willy's new boat.

 

What beam is machete?

 

Do you think this double chined hull would work on something which is 12ft long and 800 wide? (12ft skiff but more like a UK Cherub) would have tube wings to get the boat out to make beam.

 

How do you set up the bulkheads to build the boat? are the stringers all that hold it together until the skins are put on?

The Machete design has a beam of 750mm.

 

A 12ft long 800mm wide skiff would probably have trouble floating right. You'd probably have to substitute buoyancy with a big 'ol t-foil rudder, which still leaves you screwed in light air.

 

Actually the Machete build process starts from the topsides and moves inwards in a "ladder build" method of my own design which builds the boat more easily and without the need for a jig. You start by gluing a set of precut beveled sticks onto the insides of the topsides in preparation for the bulkheads. Next you flip the topsides up and clamp the gluer sticks to the bulkheads with glue in place and lasso it in tension in a few spots to get the bend right. This gives you a robust skeleton to work with while installing the stringers and other skins.

 

DRC

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Pics of Willie's boat? Is it a carbon version? Nothing in the posts lately. Inquiring minds want to know.

Yeah it's a carbon copy of my boat from the 2014 worlds. Bulkheads going in next week. Who's tire kicking?

 

DRC

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How do you make a carbon copy of a tortured ply boat. Did you make a mold or are you skinning a ply boat with carbon. Just asking.

Pressed foam into the build jig we already had. Skinned the inside, built the structure in last week. Deck goes on this week. Then the boat gets pulled out of the jig and the outside skin goes on. So it's sort of a tortured foam process. Relevant to the subject line of this thread, I'm considering prototyping a Carbon Machete, where the skins and bulkheads are machined from carbon and foam sandwich sheets. This should reduce the required build time by simplifying the structure, bring the stiffness and abuse tolerance up and reduce the maintenance requirement. That'll probably be the boat I bring to worlds.

 

DRC

post-100627-0-68828100-1456851288_thumb.jpg

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For the carbon machete, can you buy the carbon/foam sheets or do you have to make those?

Adds $3k to the kit?

 

Those will be expensive off-cuts and you can't burn them in the shop stove.

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For the carbon machete, can you buy the carbon/foam sheets or do you have to make those?

Adds $3k to the kit?

 

Those will be expensive off-cuts and you can't burn them in the shop stove.

It's most cost effective to build custom panels in-house. Yes, switching to carbon would add cost. However, the bias in favor of composites is huge and an 8k carbon kit is still cheaper than a 32k carbon boat. May sound a bit dejected here but IC's sell very poorly; plywood ICs cost less and sell worse. I can only build stuff. I have no power over consumer tastes.

 

DRC

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Was just curious about ballpark extra cost. If it would be just 3-4K extra, I would try to scrape up the extra money. My boat would have to live outside most of the time, even with a nice cover I wouldn't sleep well thinking about rot.

 

My tire kicking boots have a hole in the toe, new boots first.

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Not finished yet. Busy with other more commercial work. Will's boat has been picking up hours here and there.

 

DRC

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Dave, what's the best way to contact you about buying a kit, can you pm me on here with details if kits are still available?

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Oh shit! Sold! Changing to a smartphone has meant I don't check my secondary email accounts as much. I've got kits in stock and I'd be glad to send on to oz. To answer Rhet's question, not many. One day of sunshine has been this initiative in Toronto http://rcyc-machete.ca/. Awesome concept. Fulcrum email still works. SEZED let's talk through that.

 

DRC

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Ohh, I do like the look of what the RCYC boys are doing. And if there's any club dinghy fleet you want involved in something like this it'd be the boys and girls of RCYC.

 

If the RCYC venture goes well it could be a stepping point to convince a few more clubs to do something similar...

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