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    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
peterivanac

Team Australia

118 posts in this topic

Well, about the only good thing I can see about the revised AC48 rule is that Team Australia is back which is really what our country needs. Go Aussies.

 

http://team-australia.americascup.com/en/home.html

With what? They sold their AC45 to TNZ.

 

Sorry to disappoint you but that website hasn't been updated since last year and really should be taken down as Team Oz doesn't exist anymore.

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^ Nope, TNZ put their original modified AC45F on a ship to Europe.

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The background on their page actually says "2017 Australia Gets Back in the Ring"
They're back?
Or that means that they're back from years ago, and they've dropped out but haven't updated they're page to say they pulled out not long ago.

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Oh FFS. Look at the date the last story was updated.

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Oh FFS. Look at the date the last story was updated.

 

And if you really want to be sure, check their Twitter account... more like a Cricket account for the last year almost...

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Their lastest update on facebook is July 2014

 

https://www.facebook.com/TeamAus35?_rdr

 

Sadly, I don't think they are in.

 

Would have been great to have the semi-finals between NZ and Oz.

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Oh FFS. Look at the date the last story was updated.

That's right. The most recent story under the News heading, is:

 

"Team Australia Withdraws from Cup"

 

....dated last July.

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Naw, you right. They out.

 

I thought it means BACK in the ring, but no.


Well in that case the whole thing sucks balls.

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So then was Team Australia a poodle for Oracle to set-up the rules the way Oracle wanted?

If they thought they actually were a possible challenger of record before, they should easily be at least a challenger now!

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with IM working for the man they should at least rate a 45f and design collaboration...

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with IM working for the man they should at least rate a 45f and design collaboration...

I thought those clowns sold their 45 to ETNZ?

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Then those clowns shipped it off to Italy.

 

I can't decide which is funnier: bolting foils on a boat not designed to foil - or doing so for a race that doesn't matter with a host that isn't taking part.

 

Or, perhaps I got it mixed up with the enigmatic Boat 4 that recently surfaced in France?

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So then was Team Australia a poodle for Oracle to set-up the rules the way Oracle wanted?

If they thought they actually were a possible challenger of record before, they should easily be at least a challenger now!

 

Maybe the Oatleys could see OR and ACEA that they couldn't organise a shitfight at a sewerage treatment plant and thought; 'Lets get out of this clusterfuck before it costs us some serious money'. They've created billion dollar empires because they're pretty smart operators.

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I think when they challenged the Oatleys thought at least a few of the Aussie Olympians they'd subsidised/sponsored onto the gold medal podium would jump ship and join them out of loyalty/national pride.

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So then was Team Australia a poodle for Oracle to set-up the rules the way Oracle wanted?

If they thought they actually were a possible challenger of record before, they should easily be at least a challenger now!

 

Maybe the Oatleys could see OR and ACEA that they couldn't organise a shitfight at a sewerage treatment plant and thought; 'Lets get out of this clusterfuck before it costs us some serious money'. They've created billion dollar empires because they're pretty smart operators.

 

 

If they really were so smart they would have pulled out before signing a protocol not after. It took them ages to get that protocol done and by then it should have been pretty obvious they simply weren't in the same league. The whole thing smells much more like sheer incompetence than smarts.

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So then was Team Australia a poodle for Oracle to set-up the rules the way Oracle wanted?

If they thought they actually were a possible challenger of record before, they should easily be at least a challenger now!

 

Maybe the Oatleys could see OR and ACEA that they couldn't organise a shitfight at a sewerage treatment plant and thought; 'Lets get out of this clusterfuck before it costs us some serious money'. They've created billion dollar empires because they're pretty smart operators.

 

 

If they really were so smart they would have pulled out before signing a protocol not after. It took them ages to get that protocol done and by then it should have been pretty obvious they simply weren't in the same league. The whole thing smells much more like sheer incompetence than smarts.

 

 

+1

 

They should never have signed off on that protocol before pulling out - should have left that to the next CoR in line

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Then those clowns shipped it off to Italy.

 

I can't decide which is funnier: bolting foils on a boat not designed to foil - or doing so for a race that doesn't matter with a host that isn't taking part.

 

Or, perhaps I got it mixed up with the enigmatic Boat 4 that recently surfaced in France?

but if TA gets a free boat and design collaboration from OR they are certainly up on the deal, and they get to vote!

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Then those clowns shipped it off to Italy.

 

I can't decide which is funnier: bolting foils on a boat not designed to foil - or doing so for a race that doesn't matter with a host that isn't taking part.

 

Or, perhaps I got it mixed up with the enigmatic Boat 4 that recently surfaced in France?

IIRC word is the boat was in Singapore on the way to Portsmouth

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So then was Team Australia a poodle for Oracle to set-up the rules the way Oracle wanted?

If they thought they actually were a possible challenger of record before, they should easily be at least a challenger now!

 

Maybe the Oatleys could see OR and ACEA that they couldn't organise a shitfight at a sewerage treatment plant and thought; 'Lets get out of this clusterfuck before it costs us some serious money'. They've created billion dollar empires because they're pretty smart operators.

 

 

If they really were so smart they would have pulled out before signing a protocol not after. It took them ages to get that protocol done and by then it should have been pretty obvious they simply weren't in the same league. The whole thing smells much more like sheer incompetence than smarts.

 

 

+1

 

They should never have signed off on that protocol before pulling out - should have left that to the next CoR in line

 

smells bad IMHO

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Then those clowns shipped it off to Italy.

 

I can't decide which is funnier: bolting foils on a boat not designed to foil - or doing so for a race that doesn't matter with a host that isn't taking part.

 

Or, perhaps I got it mixed up with the enigmatic Boat 4 that recently surfaced in France?

but if TA gets a free boat and design collaboration from OR they are certainly up on the deal, and they get to vote!Hooray!

 

Let's all sign up for personal favors from ACEA!

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^

What drugs are these guys on! Some great quotes...

 

...bought a sleek America’s Cup training catamaran

 

 

Its an Extreme 40! Shouldn't that read an old, obsolete boat that the only similarity between it and the AC is that there are 2 hulls...

 

If we can handle this boat without tipping up then we’ll try to get a foiling boat and two years from now we might be able to."

 

:o besides the absurdity of the whole idea, I love the well used sailing terms ..... "tipping up" Is that anything like capsizing, or wiping out or.....

 

Sorry, but this article is a real embarrassment to Australian sailing.

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Sailing is easy, kids do it.

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Sorry, but this article is a real embarrassment to Australian sailing.

I suspect it's an elaborate joke.

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Joke? No, it's the next ex-challenger of record* ;)

 

*Iain 'job for life' Murray knows how handy they can be....

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Sorry, but this article is a real embarrassment to Australian sailing.

I suspect it's an elaborate joke.

Australia? Yes, agreed.

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You guys don't come from the Gold coast do you!

it is the emerald city, Dorothy.

build it they will come!

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The only thing funnier will be all wannabes from around those parts straight on the phone talking themselves up to get a job.

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Aussies! - no surprises there.

There's no Aussies in the Gold Coast. Its all Kiwi ex-pats

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Aussies! - no surprises there.

There's no Aussies in the Gold Coast. Its all Kiwi ex-pats

 

Not as many as before. You cruel bastards are shipping them home all because they have a criminal record for armed robbery.

 

Fuckers.

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^ Wasn't that the minimum requirement to settle there in the first place? & free transport provided...

 

Now the shackle-draggers get fussy!??

 

 

You know the old saying, " For every kiwi that moves to Oz the avg I.Q. in both countries goes up"

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We carefully select citizens with the unique character defects required to integrate successfully with Australian society, export them there, and then the bastards are ungrateful...

 

Mr Clarkson summed it up pretty well in the Sunday Times quite a while back:

 

 

Jeremy Clarkson: Be careful of the lucky country, it has teeth

Surely, after 20 days of trial by fire, the Australians must now realise that God never really intended this enormous tinderbox to be used for human habitation.

Plainly it was created as a giant dustbin, a place far from civilisation where all His failed experiments could be left to their own terrifying devices. “Oh no,” said God on the fourth day, “I’ve gone and made a spider which can kill a man just by looking at him. I need somewhere to put it.” So on the fifth day He created Australia.

This then became home for all the horrid snakes and the bitey crocodiles and the baby-eating dingoes. And to make sure that man stayed away, He made the land itself completely infertile and filled the sea around its shores with deadly sharks and killer jellyfish. He even built an enormous barrier reef. Frankly, He did everything possible to ensure that humans never went there, short of putting up a sign saying “Trespassers will be eaten”.

Nobody knows what drew the Aborigines but we do know that the first white man to sail this way was the world’s most useless explorer, a Dutchman called Abel Tasman. In a three-year voyage he found Fiji, New Zealand and Tasmania, but in one of the most inept pieces of navigation ever he completely missed the big bit in the middle. That was discovered by Captain James Cook who stepped off his ship, sniffed the air and declared, “Yes. This would make a fantastic prison.”

{snip}

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Funny as hell! Thanks....

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I'm sure if they confirm with etnz that there will be an Australian challenger they will be more than happy to have an event on the Gold Coast in 2020, but how good would it be to have an acws event in Perth.

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http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/americas-cup-bid-for-the-gold-coast-20160309-gneygq.html

 

 

Queensland businessmen Steve Ackerie and Dreamworld developers Tony and Rodney Longhurst have unveiled an audacious plan to lure the America's Cup to the Gold Coast.

The first step is to host a challenger championship for high-speed catamarans, which would be one of the accredited lead-up races to the America's Cup, held every four years......

 

 

Clueless...

He said Louis Vuitton America's Cup World Series yacht races now raced A-45 catamarans.

"And they are quite affordable. They are a one-make boat and then we could get a young Australian team and we might get a chance to run in this challenger series.

"And then we could challenge for the America Cup, like the New Zealanders have done."

 

Can not be serious. Back to the cars...

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^^ Like I said, children do it all the time, this sailboat racing, how hard can it be.

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^

What drugs are these guys on! Some great quotes...

 

...bought a sleek America’s Cup training catamaran

 

 

Its an Extreme 40! Shouldn't that read an old, obsolete boat that the only similarity between it and the AC is that there are 2 hulls...

 

If we can handle this boat without tipping up then we’ll try to get a foiling boat and two years from now we might be able to."

 

:o besides the absurdity of the whole idea, I love the well used sailing terms ..... "tipping up" Is that anything like capsizing, or wiping out or.....

 

Sorry, but this article is a real embarrassment to Australian sailing.

Simon N you're the only embarrassment to Australian sailing around here. Good on them for having a crack. God knows that the AC series is in desperate need of a decent venue.

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^

What drugs are these guys on! Some great quotes...

 

...bought a sleek America’s Cup training catamaran

 

 

Its an Extreme 40! Shouldn't that read an old, obsolete boat that the only similarity between it and the AC is that there are 2 hulls...

 

If we can handle this boat without tipping up then we’ll try to get a foiling boat and two years from now we might be able to."

 

:o besides the absurdity of the whole idea, I love the well used sailing terms ..... "tipping up" Is that anything like capsizing, or wiping out or.....

 

Sorry, but this article is a real embarrassment to Australian sailing.

Simon N you're the only embarrassment to Australian sailing around here. Good on them for having a crack. God knows that the AC series is in desperate need of a decent venue.

 

Really? What are they having a crack at? They are simply hot air and totally unrealistic. They have zero track record, almost zero sailing experience never mind the experience to run a major sailing campaign (motorsport and power boat racing don't give you the skills and ability to run an AC campaign) and they don't have the funding. If they had any realistic chance, I would be right behind them, but the problem with attention seekers like these guys is that they make it even tougher for anybody with real credentials. We have been through this before in Oz - one bad, unrealistic campaign sinking all hope for another one that did have realistic possibilities. If they had any chance at all, or exhibited any suggestion that they might be able to pull it off, I know a number of people who would give their time to help, but not one of them is doing so.

 

Australia has the people and knowledge to pull together a team. What is lacking is money and some very serious people have found it impossible to raise the amounts needed. You cannot do what these clowns are suggesting - by an AC45F, try to campaign it and then hope to raise the money for a team. They also show a complete lack of understanding as to what it takes to even launch a campaign to do the ACWS.

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Maybe you should jump on the phone and offer your expert advice and show them your extensive list of special friends.

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Still retaining my Kiwi nationality here in Aussie, I must agree that if NZ can mount a serious challenge time after time, there is no reason why Australia with all its human talent and other resources cannot be just as consistent, and it frustrates me. One reason I can point at for this state of play is that the current owner and holders of the Cup - being 95% dependent on Kiwi and Aussie management and know-how are shit scared of what beefed up nationality rules would mean - incidentally and conversely the same reason why the new AC format will not go much beyond an Indian Wells tennis tournament level of popularity - as opposed to the world-wide attraction and focus on previous AC events in Fremantle, Auckland, or in tennis terms the likes of say a Wimbledon or Australian Open... At the moment the event will compete more and more compete against the Extreme and WMR series, and could be left behind if racing and format do not build on the Cups illustrious nation against nation pedigree...

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Maybe you should jump on the phone and offer your expert advice and show them your extensive list of special friends.

I would do if there was any chance they had any credibility. There are a fair number of well qualified people who would love to get involved with a serious Oz challenge and I do know just about all of them. I am not the only person who thinks these guys are doing more harm than good.

 

What is needed is a VRO, and they are in very, very short supply. There are currently only 2 or 3 people in Oz who could do it and every one of them has said no to very real and credible attempts to get a challenge together. Even the seed capital and contacts of the Oatley family (estimated net worth $900m+) wasn't enough. Corporate Oz has shown a distinct lack of interest.

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Maybe you should jump on the phone and offer your expert advice and show them your extensive list of special friends.

I would do if there was any chance they had any credibility. There are a fair number of well qualified people who would love to get involved with a serious Oz challenge and I do know just about all of them. I am not the only person who thinks these guys are doing more harm than good.

 

What is needed is a VRO, and they are in very, very short supply. There are currently only 2 or 3 people in Oz who could do it and every one of them has said no to very real and credible attempts to get a challenge together. Even the seed capital and contacts of the Oatley family (estimated net worth $900m+) wasn't enough. Corporate Oz has shown a distinct lack of interest.

 

So who is team NZs VRO then Simon?

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Some chap called Matteo de Nora apparently has a few bob.

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Maybe you should jump on the phone and offer your expert advice and show them your extensive list of special friends.

I would do if there was any chance they had any credibility. There are a fair number of well qualified people who would love to get involved with a serious Oz challenge and I do know just about all of them. I am not the only person who thinks these guys are doing more harm than good.

 

What is needed is a VRO, and they are in very, very short supply. There are currently only 2 or 3 people in Oz who could do it and every one of them has said no to very real and credible attempts to get a challenge together. Even the seed capital and contacts of the Oatley family (estimated net worth $900m+) wasn't enough. Corporate Oz has shown a distinct lack of interest.

 

So who is team NZs VRO then Simon?

 

The NZ government! They have taken that role and without them, Team NZ would have folded years ago. On the back of the NZ Government's involvement, there have been a number of wealthy individuals that have got involved with either money or influence that have helped GD and TNZ.

 

In Oz, there is zero chance of getting either State or Federal Government involvement, which we know because approaches have been made by credible teams/people. Therefore, the core support or seed money has to come from somewhere. While I haven't done the exercise for something like 5/6 years, the last time I was involved we identified something like 4 people who had the sailing interest and financial clout to really carry it off. All expressed zero interest at that time, although eventually one stepped forward only for the whole thing to be too rich for his blood. And when one of the most successful and respected VRO's tries and pulls out, it certainly makes everybody else think twice.

 

I think there has been a very major shift in the game that the likes of RC have totally missed. Although there are exceptions, teams are still very reliant on VRO's or equivalent. Back in 2007 and before, VRO's all used to sail the boats, maybe not on race day, but certainly they went out sailing while training on a regular basis. Because of the type of boats, having the VRO on board during training wasn't really a liability. They could even steer for periods. Now, with the boats we have, a VRO takes a serious person risk stepping onto these boats in training and the team has to dedicate a resource to keeping that person safe. As for a VRO steering for any length of time, only a completely crazy, unrealistic egotist (isn't that all VRO's? ;) ) would believe they are up to the job and weren't risking the safety and lives of their crew as well as themselves.

 

So back in the day, the VRO's actually sailed their boats and go back far enough, they actually skippered their own entries. How cool was that. You made it rich and you could personally compete for the biggest prize in sailing. Now, all you do is put up the money and if you are lucky, you might get a joy ride a couple of times a year. Not really a great incentive.

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Maybe you should jump on the phone and offer your expert advice and show them your extensive list of special friends.

I would do if there was any chance they had any credibility. There are a fair number of well qualified people who would love to get involved with a serious Oz challenge and I do know just about all of them. I am not the only person who thinks these guys are doing more harm than good.

 

What is needed is a VRO, and they are in very, very short supply. There are currently only 2 or 3 people in Oz who could do it and every one of them has said no to very real and credible attempts to get a challenge together. Even the seed capital and contacts of the Oatley family (estimated net worth $900m+) wasn't enough. Corporate Oz has shown a distinct lack of interest.

 

So who is team NZs VRO then Simon?

 

The NZ government! They have taken that role and without them, Team NZ would have folded years ago. On the back of the NZ Government's involvement, there have been a number of wealthy individuals that have got involved with either money or influence that have helped GD and TNZ.

 

You do talk shit Simon, about things you know nothing about.

 

The govt sponsorship occurred twice, 2007 and 2013. The agreement for the sponsorship was that TNZ had to have enough other sponsorship in place to be able to mount a creditable campaign before the govt sponsorship money was released i.e the Govt sponsorship was the cream on the top. The Govt was a part shareholder not VRO.

 

There is no Govt backing for this cycle.

 

TNZ certainly has the backing of more than a few private wealthy benefactors but I think you will find that rather inject cash most provide services.

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Maybe you should jump on the phone and offer your expert advice and show them your extensive list of special friends.

I would do if there was any chance they had any credibility. There are a fair number of well qualified people who would love to get involved with a serious Oz challenge and I do know just about all of them. I am not the only person who thinks these guys are doing more harm than good.

 

What is needed is a VRO, and they are in very, very short supply. There are currently only 2 or 3 people in Oz who could do it and every one of them has said no to very real and credible attempts to get a challenge together. Even the seed capital and contacts of the Oatley family (estimated net worth $900m+) wasn't enough. Corporate Oz has shown a distinct lack of interest.

 

So who is team NZs VRO then Simon?

 

The NZ government! They have taken that role and without them, Team NZ would have folded years ago. On the back of the NZ Government's involvement, there have been a number of wealthy individuals that have got involved with either money or influence that have helped GD and TNZ.

 

You do talk shit Simon, about things you know nothing about.

 

The govt sponsorship occurred twice, 2007 and 2013. The agreement for the sponsorship was that TNZ had to have enough other sponsorship in place to be able to mount a creditable campaign before the govt sponsorship money was released i.e the Govt sponsorship was the cream on the top. The Govt was a part shareholder not VRO.

 

There is no Govt backing for this cycle.

 

TNZ certainly has the backing of more than a few private wealthy benefactors but I think you will find that rather inject cash most provide services.

 

I think you are getting a little carried away and are trying to use the term "VRO" too literally.

 

Yes, there is no government money this time around but it is an absolute fact that without government money they would not have managed to keep going. And as you say, the NZ government was a part shareholder. Shareholders are the people who own a company/team, and I think most people would consider the NZ government to be "very rich". Therefore, being very rich and a part owner fits the basic description of a VRO.

 

TNZ have been reliant on other very rich individuals to stop the team folding. For instance, there is a rather famous case of one VRO lending them $10m to stop them folding.

 

Bottom line is that to suggest that TNZ has managed without rich individuals caring enough to ensure the team survives goes against the evidence. But if you want to be absolutely literal, then yes, TNZ has never had a single VRO.

 

The same is true of all the teams except for the French. Even BAR has it's VRO's (a whole host of them).

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^

What drugs are these guys on! Some great quotes...

 

...bought a sleek Americas Cup training catamaran

 

Its an Extreme 40! Shouldn't that read an old, obsolete boat that the only similarity between it and the AC is that there are 2 hulls...

If we can handle this boat without tipping up then well try to get a foiling boat and two years from now we might be able to."

 

:o besides the absurdity of the whole idea, I love the well used sailing terms ..... "tipping up" Is that anything like capsizing, or wiping out or.....

 

Sorry, but this article is a real embarrassment to Australian sailing.

Simon N you're the only embarrassment to Australian sailing around here. Good on them for having a crack. God knows that the AC series is in desperate need of a decent venue.

I may not agree with some his opinions, but I've always found Simon to be factually correct. He's good value.

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Would have thought that a former V8 driver would fit right in with the way the Americas Cup is going.....

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Because of the type of boats, having the VRO on board during training wasn't really a liability. They could even steer for periods. Now, with the boats we have, a VRO takes a serious person risk stepping onto these boats in training and the team has to dedicate a resource to keeping that person safe. As for a VRO steering for any length of time, only a completely crazy, unrealistic egotist (isn't that all VRO's? ;) ) would believe they are up to the job and weren't risking the safety and lives of their crew as well as themselves.

 

So back in the day, the VRO's actually sailed their boats and go back far enough, they actually skippered their own entries. How cool was that. You made it rich and you could personally compete for the biggest prize in sailing. Now, all you do is put up the money and if you are lucky, you might get a joy ride a couple of times a year. Not really a great incentive.

But they still can and kind of do. Tom Cruise (not a VROm but you get my point) steered the ETNZ 72 around the south bay after a race! And I think, Larry steered 17 after they won the cup. He did look scared though. I still don't think this is a blocking factor anyway, surely there's enough "new money" VRO's who would love to do 40 knots in a foiling cat and are willing to take the risk? Go look at that ridiculous Rothchild video that was around here somewhere last year. You only need 6 to 10 of them, right?

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surely there's enough "new money" VRO's who would love to do 40 knots in a foiling cat and are willing to take the risk?

Apparently not. Or are they all hiding under a stone?

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Yeah, good point. Not enough Cup cycles with foiling cats? Young billionaires want to be seen to spend money on philanthropy publicly and spend real money in private, al la Zuckerberg? It's a little bit suprising that we haven't seen a Google AC entry given all the stuff they do. Although I guess tech today is about "breaking" the rules, not playing in a box. So maybe I'm wrong.

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Google like to innovate. OD wouldn't suit them... 8)

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Google has a problem in much of the world as being perceived as slime-ball tax dodgers. I'm not sure "we don't pay our taxes but we build really expensive yachts" would necessarily be a PR triumph.

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Zucks cannot compete in the AC because LE might do something.

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Because of the type of boats, having the VRO on board during training wasn't really a liability. They could even steer for periods. Now, with the boats we have, a VRO takes a serious person risk stepping onto these boats in training and the team has to dedicate a resource to keeping that person safe. As for a VRO steering for any length of time, only a completely crazy, unrealistic egotist (isn't that all VRO's? ;) ) would believe they are up to the job and weren't risking the safety and lives of their crew as well as themselves.

 

So back in the day, the VRO's actually sailed their boats and go back far enough, they actually skippered their own entries. How cool was that. You made it rich and you could personally compete for the biggest prize in sailing. Now, all you do is put up the money and if you are lucky, you might get a joy ride a couple of times a year. Not really a great incentive.

But they still can and kind of do. Tom Cruise (not a VROm but you get my point) steered the ETNZ 72 around the south bay after a race! And I think, Larry steered 17 after they won the cup. He did look scared though. I still don't think this is a blocking factor anyway, surely there's enough "new money" VRO's who would love to do 40 knots in a foiling cat and are willing to take the risk? Go look at that ridiculous Rothchild video that was around here somewhere last year. You only need 6 to 10 of them, right?

 

I really don't consider one off rides around the bay as a very good return on 10"s of millions of $$$. Back in the day, you saw LE spend weeks at a time in Valencia out sailing every day with the team, often helming the tune up boat. Many of the VRO's did similar, maybe not helming as much as, say, LE and EB, but out on a fairly regular basis.

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A quick grab of the wheel in very controlled conditions is not enough for most VRO's. So they have moved elsewhere. Perhaps this is actually the aim of TO. Remove all VRO's from the competition.

 

No VRO's means that teams need to get sponsers. Sponsors are after exposure, as long as they get that the game is secondary. They will be more inclined to go ahead with the idea of preplanning the next cycle. After all the whole idea of the winner changing things doesn't fit with corporate pkanning.

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From the article. "As much as $20 million in revenue from major sailing tournaments may have been turned down because we do not have the right facilities and capability to host these major sailing events."

 

If they are talking about the AC lite series, the money actually goes the other way. So they have saved millions by not having the facilities. :huh: :huh: :huh:

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Straya have the crew ability but do they have the funding and boat technolgy/build ability?

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There is plenty of money there.

It is the brains they lack? IMHBO

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12 hours ago, Barnyb said:

Straya have the crew ability but do they have the funding and boat technolgy/build ability?

We have the technology and boatbuilding ability. Money is a different matter

4 hours ago, Kiwing said:

There is plenty of money there.

It is the brains they lack? IMHBO

I think it is because of brains that it's hard to raise the money. The rich guys here are smarter than elsewhere and know what a waste of money the AC is. It needs to be  personal obsession. The super rich owners want to sail themselves and they want to be part of the decision making process.

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16 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

We have the technology and boatbuilding ability. Money is a different matter

I think it is because of brains that it's hard to raise the money. The rich guys here are smarter than elsewhere and know what a waste of money the AC is. It needs to be  personal obsession. The super rich owners want to sail themselves and they want to be part of the decision making process.

I doubt Australia is any different to NZ.

If ETNZ folded we would likely never see another AC team from NZ.

The beginnings of ETNZ were back in Fremantle when $10 Million or so allowed you to compete in the AC with some level of credibility.

From there, ETNZ were able to continue by adapting to the changing landscape.

In contrast, the Australian teams lost their backers who would not have been rich enough to fund a campaign these days.

Rather than adapting, they folded.

Its a lot hard to stand up a new team these days that runs solely (or at least mostly) on commercial funding.

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The best new team model has been BAR where they have managed to get a significant number of rich individuals to get involved and put up manageable amounts each that then allowed the commercial sponsorship to take over. I count 10 very wealthy individuals as founding shareholders. I cannot see any hope of getting enough group of rich Australian sailors to work in that way.

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12 minutes ago, jaysper said:

I doubt Australia is any different to NZ.

If ETNZ folded we would likely never see another AC team from NZ.

The beginnings of ETNZ were back in Fremantle when $10 Million or so allowed you to compete in the AC with some level of credibility.

From there, ETNZ were able to continue by adapting to the changing landscape.

In contrast, the Australian teams lost their backers who would not have been rich enough to fund a campaign these days.

Rather than adapting, they folded.

Its a lot hard to stand up a new team these days that runs solely (or at least mostly) on commercial funding.

Id like to see the Aussies turn up and as kiwis we should help them in any way possible. I guess the best way to do this...is to NOT have an open design but a limited box rule were you don't need a team of supercomputers and scientists. Make limits in how light the hull and mast can be stop super spending to get an advantage in this area. Ban exotic materials and limit to one boat per campaign. The defender is allowed two Identical boats so they can have some to train with. 

Is this likely to happen......Hell No 

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Just now, mako23 said:

Id like to see the Aussies turn up and as kiwis we should help them in any way possible. I guess the best way to do this...is to NOT have an open design but a limited box rule were you don't need a team of supercomputers and scientists. Make limits in how light the hull and mast can be stop super spending to get an advantage in this area. Ban exotic materials and limit to one boat per campaign. The defender is allowed two Identical boats so they can have some to train with. 

Is this likely to happen......Hell No 

I'm with Dalton on this one.

Yes, we should see if we can keep the costs from continuing to spiral out of control but not try to turn it into some shabby little beach regatta.

The AC needs to have scope for the design contest to flourish, because at the end of the day it really is a design contest first with sailing the boat being fairly secondary IMO.

But as I have said before, you could make the class rule something the size of an opti and teams would STILL find a way to spend $100 Million making sure THEIR opti was the fastest.

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If we are in fantasy land, how about a maximum budget and a salary cap. Anything below the salary cap can be added to the budget. Then the sailors will have to decide whether they want to be paid more and have less R&D or paid less and potentially have a faster boat. ETNZ probably will be OK with that, but what would Spithill or Barker say?

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5 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

If we are in fantasy land, how about a maximum budget and a salary cap. Anything below the salary cap can be added to the budget. Then the sailors will have to decide whether they want to be paid more and have less R&D or paid less and potentially have a faster boat. ETNZ probably will be OK with that, but what would Spithill or Barker say?

Now THAT is fantasy land and totally unworkable also.

Even if you COULD stop the teams gaming the system (good luck), then there is the no small issue of the fact that the Defender would ALWAYS have an insurmountable advantage because of the lack of logistics costs.

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18 minutes ago, jaysper said:

 

I'm with Dalton on this one.

Yes, we should see if we can keep the costs from continuing to spiral out of control but not try to turn it into some shabby little beach regatta.

I'm sure there's a happy medium here, banning exotic materials have been used in the past, In my opinion the IACC rule of the past was "way to wide involving too many parameters" taking several cup cycles before boats started too come competitive with each other. A box rule effecting allowing changes in length and sail area still leaves a lot of design possibility including hull shape, bow and stern profiles, deck layout, position of keel etc etc, What parameters that would be fixed is beam, freeboard, total length not (waterline length), keel weight and depth, mast weight  and height

The AC needs to have scope for the design contest to flourish, because at the end of the day it really is a design contest first with sailing the boat being fairly secondary IMO.

I feel that its a design and sail contest, we need close boat racing to draw in the punters and keep TV audience ( However that's just my opinion) The average sailing punter or TV audience don't really understand or care about design.. 

I'm sure a well worked out Box rule with limited parameters can satisfy your needs and not make racing so expensive that nobody turns up

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5 minutes ago, mako23 said:

I'm with Dalton on this one.

Yes, we should see if we can keep the costs from continuing to spiral out of control but not try to turn it into some shabby little beach regatta.

I'm sure there's a happy medium here, banning exotic materials have been used in the past, In my opinion the IACC rule of the past was "way to wide involving too many parameters" taking several cup cycles before boats started too come competitive with each other. A box rule effecting allowing changes in length and sail area still leaves a lot of design possibility including hull shape, bow and stern profiles, deck layout, position of keel etc etc, What parameters that would be fixed is beam, freeboard, total length not (waterline length) keel weigh and depth, t mast weight, design and height

The AC needs to have scope for the design contest to flourish, because at the end of the day it really is a design contest first with sailing the boat being fairly secondary IMO.

I feel that its a design and sail contest, we need close boat racing to draw in the punters and keep TV audience ( However that's just my opinion) The average sailing punter or TV audience don't really understand or care about design.. 

I'm sure a well worked out Box rule with limited parameters can satisfy your needs and not make racing so expensive that nobody turns up

And therein lies the problem. It matters not one bit what ETNZ decide on, they will likely disappoint a whole bunch of peeps.

I for one am a fan of lead mines and yet it would appear I am in the minority and I suspect I am likely to be disappointed by the final class selection.

But, shrug!

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Just now, jaysper said:

And therein lies the problem. It matters not one bit what ETNZ decide on, they will likely disappoint a whole bunch of peeps.

I for one am a fan of lead mines and yet it would appear I am in the minority and I suspect I am likely to be disappointed by the final class selection.

But, shrug!

I think you have hit the nail on the head, ETNZ will do what suits them best and that doesn't include the wishes of hard core fans such as you and me.  I still have a forlorn hope that lead mines may come back. If that happens it might be the LR influence and ill be grateful for that. I do like the cats but my deep gut feeling that there not majestic enough, even now in contrast the J boats live and prosper....why they are awesome to watch

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I think most syndicates still need that squillionaire backer to kick things off though and then the sponsors start getting on the bandwagon once they see someone is willing to hang their balls out there. Pretty sure ETNZ would have been dead without Matteo?

I don't think there is anyone in Aus who really has that raging ego like Packer & Bond did and who willingly want to piss money up the wall for a yacht race.

Look at someone like Andrew 'Twiggy' Forrest who has just donated $400 odd million towards social and scientific causes. He could fund an Aussie challenge using the spare change in his back pocket. But lets face it, would you rather be remembered for maybe funding a cancer cure or winning a yacht race that most of the general population don't give a fuck about. I'm sure the money is there in Aus, but I think the people in charge of it prefer to use it a bit more wisely in this day and age.

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39 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

If we are in fantasy land, how about a maximum budget and a salary cap. Anything below the salary cap can be added to the budget. Then the sailors will have to decide whether they want to be paid more and have less R&D or paid less and potentially have a faster boat. ETNZ probably will be OK with that, but what would Spithill or Barker say?

Making a rule about a salary cap is unworkable but there is nothing to stop a team from being formed by enthusiasts who are prepared to work for a minimum wage and develop the boat in the city of their residence until they need to move to the venue .. something like ETNZ did.  They are unlikely to win but they would have formed the basis of a team and if they do well they may well attract sponsorship for the next event.

Australia has massive talent and they could do it that way.

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5 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

Making a rule about a salary cap is unworkable but there is nothing to stop a team from being formed by enthusiasts who are prepared to work for a minimum wage and develop the boat in the city of their residence until they need to move to the venue .. something like ETNZ did.  They are unlikely to win but they would have formed the basis of a team and if they do well they may well attract sponsorship for the next event.

Australia has massive talent and they could do it that way.

Now you really are dreaming. If you are good enough to sail in the AC, you are not going to work for a minimum wage. It is your career and future. If you can earn, say, AU$125-150k a year on the circuit out of boats like the TP52 sailing a total of 100 days per year, why would you sail full time for the same money or less? Or you do the Volvo, where you earn big for a year and a half and then get a year off. You only have a certain shelf life and you need to maximise the money while you can. If you aren't good enough to earn that money, you aren't good enough to sail in the AC. History shows that a poor, under funded campaign is unlikely to see a second edition.

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The cup should be designed so that thirty million gets you a competitive seat at the table

However that seems unlikely ..the French and Japanese had about that sum and they were not competitive. This was with a strict OD rule in place with only foils and rudder up on the design table. I don't want a one class rule however completely open rule is too expensive.

I guess the cup with remain as it is...to expensive 

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1 minute ago, mako23 said:

The cup should be designed so that thirty million gets you a competitive seat at the table

However that seems unlikely ..the French and Japanese had about that sum and they were not competitive. This was with a strict OD rule in place with only foils and rudder up on the design table. I don't want a one class rule however completely open rule is too expensive.

I guess the cup with remain as it is...to expensive 

You didn't really get the last cup, did you:P Do you really think the only differences were the rudders and foils? It's actually easier to list what was one design rather than what was not. All that was one design was the hulls, beams, central pod and outer shape of the wing. There were rules about where you could place items, such as the foils but the teams developed their own foils, control systems to adjust wings, foils and rudders plus the jibs, hydraulic systems to power those control systems and each team had their own aerodynamic fairings package. Look at how differently ETNZ powered their hydraulics, adjusted the wing and foils. Did you miss the significance of Ashby playing with his gameboy while everybody else was pulling on a rope?

As for $30m, that doesn't cover the wages.

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22 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Now you really are dreaming. If you are good enough to sail in the AC, you are not going to work for a minimum wage. It is your career and future. If you can earn, say, AU$125-150k a year on the circuit out of boats like the TP52 sailing a total of 100 days per year, why would you sail full time for the same money or less? Or you do the Volvo, where you earn big for a year and a half and then get a year off. You only have a certain shelf life and you need to maximise the money while you can. If you aren't good enough to earn that money, you aren't good enough to sail in the AC. History shows that a poor, under funded campaign is unlikely to see a second edition.

You will note that I used the word "enthusiasts" .. there are a lot of people in Australia who are payed sailing professionals and a lot more "enthusiasts" who would like to become payed sailing professionals.

Such people would be glad to work at the minimum wage for the opportunity to join the professionals.

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4 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

You didn't really get the last cup, did you:P Do you really think the only differences were the rudders and foils? It's actually easier to list what was one design rather than what was not. All that was one design was the hulls, beams, central pod and outer shape of the wing. There were rules about where you could place items, such as the foils but the teams developed their own foils, control systems to adjust wings, foils and rudders plus the jibs, hydraulic systems to power those control systems and each team had their own aerodynamic fairings package. Look at how differently ETNZ powered their hydraulics, adjusted the wing and foils. Did you miss the significance of Ashby playing with his gameboy while everybody else was pulling on a rope?

As for $30m, that doesn't cover the wages.

Sigh me listing foils and rudders is listing the obvious difference. I'm more than aware of the hydraulic issues and wing usage etc. The point I was trying to make that there is a OD class element of the last Americas cup.

The other point is that the game is getting too expensive for countries like Australia.  That's why it was posted in THIS forum 

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

You will note that I used the word "enthusiasts" .. there are a lot of people in Australia who are payed sailing professionals and a lot more "enthusiasts" who would like to become payed sailing professionals.

Such people would be glad to work at the minimum wage for the opportunity to join the professionals.

I think we noticed you said "enthusiasts". The point is that if you are good enough to sail an AC boat, you would be a professional anyway. If you want to become a professional but cannot get a gig, you aren't good enough to sail in the AC. 

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2 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

I think we noticed you said "enthusiasts". The point is that if you are good enough to sail an AC boat, you would be a professional anyway. If you want to become a professional but cannot get a gig, you aren't good enough to sail in the AC. 

To some extent I agree with you except with really big boats were there is a certain number who really are moveable ballast who sit on the rail.  Good job for me and Im free

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^ Thanks, mako23, that made me smile! I suspect you are under selling yourself if all you say you are is rail meet. 

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30 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

^ Thanks, mako23, that made me smile! I suspect you are under selling yourself if all you say you are is rail meet. 

We will have to wait untill september  to know if Ive gota job, ill be down to McDonalds to move my slender 99kg back up to its rolling weight of 110kg

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4 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

I think we noticed you said "enthusiasts". The point is that if you are good enough to sail an AC boat, you would be a professional anyway. If you want to become a professional but cannot get a gig, you aren't good enough to sail in the AC. 

That's just nonsense .. If the only people who sail in the AC are the only ones who can "get a gig" then we couldn't have any new teams.

Just think about the number of people who participate in the Sydney to Hobart race, don't you think you get put an AC crew together from that fleet?

How about the 18 footers .. no one there who could contribute to an AC crew? .. Iain Murray is an ex 18 footer.

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5 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

That's just nonsense .. If the only people who sail in the AC are the only ones who can "get a gig" then we couldn't have any new teams.

Just think about the number of people who participate in the Sydney to Hobart race, don't you think you get put an AC crew together from that fleet?

How about the 18 footers .. no one there who could contribute to an AC crew? .. Iain Murray is an ex 18 footer.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

 

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11 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

I think we noticed you said "enthusiasts". The point is that if you are good enough to sail an AC boat, you would be a professional anyway. If you want to become a professional but cannot get a gig, you aren't good enough to sail in the AC. 

My boss at work is the same person who owns the boat, does that make me a 'professional'?

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11 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

Just think about the number of people who participate in the Sydney to Hobart race, don't you think you get put an AC crew together from that fleet?

How about the 18 footers .. no one there who could contribute to an AC crew? .. Iain Murray is an ex 18 footer.

The S2H fleet has a lot of pros sailing in it. All the front runners have pros in the key positions, or in the case of some boats, retired pros. I am not sure how relevant the skills of an ocean racer are when it comes to the AC. If they stay in foiling cats, the skills are irrelevant. If they move back to monohulls, maybe they will have the seamanship but there is a big difference between gybing during a 3 day race where an extra 30 seconds makes no difference to gybing an AC boat where a longer gybe might be the difference between winning and losing.

As for the 18's, the best sailors in that fleet get paid to race big boats already and over the years have produced AC sailors. The latest of those is Sam Newton of Oracle who used to crew Got to Love It 7. Scott Babbage, the SBTJ performance coach also used to crew the same skiff.

I tend to support the idea that if you are good enough to race an AC boat, you can already get well paid work racing big boats. I think there may be an opportunity for a team to find some new, young sailor who hasn't yet made it and bring them in while paying them a basic wage, which is what happened with Jimmy Spithill, but I don't think you could build a team of them. Grant Dalton made a point about this when Coutts was saying that you could do an AC campaign for $5-10m. Dalton said the only way would be to get a minimum wage crew together, which sounded good in theory but was a false economy because they would not be able to get the boat off the dock.

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14 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

 

The S2H fleet has a lot of pros sailing in it. All the front runners have pros in the key positions, or in the case of some boats, retired pros. I am not sure how relevant the skills of an ocean racer are when it comes to the AC. If they stay in foiling cats, the skills are irrelevant. If they move back to monohulls, maybe they will have the seamanship but there is a big difference between gybing during a 3 day race where an extra 30 seconds makes no difference to gybing an AC boat where a longer gybe might be the difference between winning and losing.

As for the 18's, the best sailors in that fleet get paid to race big boats already and over the years have produced AC sailors. The latest of those is Sam Newton of Oracle who used to crew Got to Love It 7. Scott Babbage, the SBTJ performance coach also used to crew the same skiff.

I tend to support the idea that if you are good enough to race an AC boat, you can already get well paid work racing big boats. I think there may be an opportunity for a team to find some new, young sailor who hasn't yet made it and bring them in while paying them a basic wage, which is what happened with Jimmy Spithill, but I don't think you could build a team of them. Grant Dalton made a point about this when Coutts was saying that you could do an AC campaign for $5-10m. Dalton said the only way would be to get a minimum wage crew together, which sounded good in theory but was a false economy because they would not be able to get the boat off the dock.

It does seem that crew are the big cost that blows expenditure out of the water. Im not a fan of a wage cap for crew syndicates should pay what they want. However the design of the next boat could influence the number of rock star you need to hire.

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A big question sailor-talent recruiting-wise may be in if the AC36 boat is an apparent-wind boat.

To go 'majestic' with jib changes, maybe even spinnaker handling etc, is just a completely different universe from fullout foiling multi monsters.

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29 minutes ago, mako23 said:

It does seem that crew are the big cost that blows expenditure out of the water. Im not a fan of a wage cap for crew syndicates should pay what they want. However the design of the next boat could influence the number of rock star you need to hire.

Interesting idea and here lies the challenge. If you go back to more "traditional" monohulls with any form of kite, you add to the number of rock stars you need. If you remove the "fly by wire" systems and hydraulics, again you add to the number of rock stars you need. The AC50's needed the least number of rock stars of any AC. I don't want a boat with computers, electronics and hydraulics like the AC50's and I want sailors pulling ropes, but this is not a formula for reduced costs.

I am not arguing for staying with AC50s, but we need to recognise that a major change in the type of boat will add significantly to budgets unless you have significant one design elements (which i don't want). I believe that the cheapest option will be to stay with foiling cats. Is that reason enough to stay there? That's not my call and I admit bias.

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6 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Interesting idea and here lies the challenge. If you go back to more "traditional" monohulls with any form of kite, you add to the number of rock stars you need. If you remove the "fly by wire" systems and hydraulics, again you add to the number of rock stars you need. The AC50's needed the least number of rock stars of any AC. I don't want a boat with computers, electronics and hydraulics like the AC50's and I want sailors pulling ropes, but this is not a formula for reduced costs.

I am not arguing for staying with AC50s, but we need to recognise that a major change in the type of boat will add significantly to budgets unless you have significant one design elements (which i don't want). I believe that the cheapest option will be to stay with foiling cats. Is that reason enough to stay there? That's not my call and I admit bias.

Your argument that AC50 reduce rock stars seems logical to me. Which is a powerful argument to keep the AC50 boats. I also think the nationality of crew rule will also reduce wages. Bad news for Australians and New Zealanders

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3 minutes ago, mako23 said:

.. I also think the nationality of crew rule will also reduce wages. Bad news for Australians and New Zealanders

Lol. D'ya think? 

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19 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

Making a rule about a salary cap is unworkable but there is nothing to stop a team from being formed by enthusiasts who are prepared to work for a minimum wage and develop the boat in the city of their residence until they need to move to the venue .. something like ETNZ did.  They are unlikely to win but they would have formed the basis of a team and if they do well they may well attract sponsorship for the next event.

Australia has massive talent and they could do it that way.

Calling ETNZ's people "enthusiasts" is kinda ridiculous.

They are well paid professionals. Perhaps not as well paid as in other teams, but even that is up for debate.

I don't buy that ETNZ were starved of funding. I'm not saying that they were the highest funded team out there, but they would have been "in the mix" dollars wise.

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1 minute ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Lol. D'ya think? 

Yes because syndicates will be able to offer take it or leave it deals. For kiwis the only deal in town is ETNZ take their deal or be unemployed. 

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3 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Yes because syndicates will be able to offer take it or leave it deals. For kiwis the only deal in town is ETNZ take their deal or be unemployed. 

Sorry, was agreeing but didn't make that clear enough. Good for COO's, bad news for the restricted-pool 'hired help' fishes.

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6 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Sorry, was agreeing but didn't make that clear enough. Good for COO's, bad news for the restricted-pool 'hired help' fishes.

Respect to you Stingray............Yes this does suck if your a professional sailors. However on american boats I want to see american crew. Im sure USA can pony up some great crew from its existing pool of sailors.

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