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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
peterivanac

Team Australia

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22 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Your argument that AC50 reduce rock stars seems logical to me. Which is a powerful argument to keep the AC50 boats. I also think the nationality of crew rule will also reduce wages. Bad news for Australians and New Zealanders

 

15 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Yes because syndicates will be able to offer take it or leave it deals. For kiwis the only deal in town is ETNZ take their deal or be unemployed. 

Let me suggest a different scenario. If they stay in AC50's or other foiling cats, the skills needed to steer one mean there is only a limited number of sailors who could do it. Add a nationality rule and doesn't that then give certain stars the leverage they need to drive up their pay. It could end up along the lines of "pay me what i want or you have no challenge or have to settle for a second rate helm". Maybe in countries where there are more than one team, as suggested for the USA, it would create a bidding war to get the person perceived to be the best helm. No sailor has to go AC sailing. For many, if you don't pay them enough, they will take other sailing jobs.

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21 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

Making a rule about a salary cap is unworkable but there is nothing to stop a team from being formed by enthusiasts who are prepared to work for a minimum wage and develop the boat in the city of their residence until they need to move to the venue .. something like ETNZ did.  They are unlikely to win but they would have formed the basis of a team and if they do well they may well attract sponsorship for the next event.

Australia has massive talent and they could do it that way.

Talent is one thing and you're correct; there's plenty of that with relevant experience to go round. The big drawback for a future Aus team is administrative and figure-head talent. Their last attempt was an abject failure by any measure and left a sour taste in the mouths of those who stumped up the funds and then watched them pissed away by bad decisions and excessive executive greed. Those guys have long fiscal memories and didn't get to where they are in the corporate world by making the same mistakes more than once. Getting a new Aus tilt at the Cup happening will require new leadership and then some fast and compelling talking. 

 

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2 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

A big question sailor-talent recruiting-wise may be in if the AC36 boat is an apparent-wind boat.

To go 'majestic' with jib changes, maybe even spinnaker handling etc, is just a completely different universe from fullout foiling multi monsters.

I'll put this in the drunk utter bollocks file....

48,668 posts...

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

Let me suggest a different scenario. If they stay in AC50's or other foiling cats, the skills needed to steer one mean there is only a limited number of sailors who could do it. Add a nationality rule and doesn't that then give certain stars the leverage they need to drive up their pay. It could end up along the lines of "pay me what i want or you have no challenge or have to settle for a second rate helm".

Yep that a good point, you have indicated a powerful problem with AC50 boats the helmsmen has to be a super skilled and could hold a syndicate hostage over pay. However if went back to monohulls then he supply of helmsmen would increase. I guess we could argue back and forth the merits of cats vs monohulls, but we will soon know in September.

Just out of Interest on a monohull how many super skilled people do you need on a boat

Initial List 

Helmsmen --star

Navigator --pleb with ipad and gps

Tactician  --star 

Trimmers (times two) ( Gib and Mainsail) --stars

Foredeck  --semi stars Use of Gennakers can reduce skill set in front of boat ( ie Ban spinnakers and use only  Gennakers  on bowsprit)

Grinders --plebs with strong legs use cyclors instead

Rail Crew  --plebs

I count 4 super stars and a couple really good professionals on the foredeck

 

On the other hand its the Americas Cup and everyone should be the best in their respective country for that syndicate. Yet to play the devils advocate look at the VOR they can hardly give away a free boat at the moment. Something needs to be done about cost. We don't want to cheapen it too a carnival but not so expensive that you need a 100 million dollars to play with. I believe a sensible compromise between these two points is 25 Million. 

 

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40 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Yep that a good point, you have indicated a powerful problem with AC50 boats the helmsmen has to be a super skilled and could hold a syndicate hostage over pay. However if went back to monohulls then he supply of helmsmen would increase. I guess we could argue back and forth the merits of cats vs monohulls, but we will soon know in September.

Just out of Interest on a monohull how many super skilled people do you need on a boat

Initial List 

Helmsmen --star

Navigator --pleb with ipad and gps

Tactician  --star 

Trimmers (times two) ( Gib and Mainsail) --stars

Foredeck  --semi stars Use of Gennakers can reduce skill set in front of boat ( ie Ban spinnakers and use only  Gennakers  on bowsprit)

Grinders --plebs with strong legs use cyclors instead

Rail Crew  --plebs

I count 4 super stars and a couple really good professionals on the foredeck

 

On the other hand its the Americas Cup and everyone should be the best in their respective country for that syndicate. Yet to play the devils advocate look at the VOR they can hardly give away a free boat at the moment. Something needs to be done about cost. We don't want to cheapen it too a carnival but not so expensive that you need a 100 million dollars to play with. I believe a sensible compromise between these two points is 25 Million. 

 

I don't know about using cyclors on a mono hull .. You would need to mount them on gimbles or something.

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5 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

A big question sailor-talent recruiting-wise may be in if the AC36 boat is an apparent-wind boat.

To go 'majestic' with jib changes, maybe even spinnaker handling etc, is just a completely different universe from fullout foiling multi monsters.

Indeed it is, Stinger. And in your opinion, is that a good thing to a bad thing?

Personally, I'm all for more 'conventional' sailing.

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

I don't know about using cyclors on a mono hull .. You would need to mount them on gimbles or something.

It wasn't an issue when a cycle grinder was used in the AC back in the 12 days, so why would it be now?

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1 hour ago, Terry Hollis said:

I don't know about using cyclors on a mono hull .. You would need to mount them on gimbles or something.

hmm interesting and valid point which I hadn't thought about to be honest. I guess putting them into a special chair that wraps around their torso might work, I guess they would have to be strapped in as well. Even then...would not fun when heading into the wind with a good lean on. 

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

It wasn't an issue when a cycle grinder was used in the AC back in the 12 days, so why would it be now?

Interestingly that was the only example of cyclors in a mono hull .. they didn't do any good then and no one copied them until they were used on cats.

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6 hours ago, mako23 said:

hmm interesting and valid point which I hadn't thought about to be honest. I guess putting them into a special chair that wraps around their torso might work, I guess they would have to be strapped in as well. Even then...would not fun when heading into the wind with a good lean on. 

If you mounted them traversely across the hull it wouldn't be a problem. 

Then the cyclors would always just be pedalling up or down hill which is fairly natural.

Although they might want to crank them to windward for righting moment. 

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19 minutes ago, jaysper said:

If you mounted them traversely across the hull it wouldn't be a problem. 

Then the cyclors would always just be pedalling up or down hill which is fairly natural.

Although they might want to crank them to windward for righting moment. 

Good idea jaysper

One a big boat I dont think the righting moment would be a issue. If you had 4 of them you could have them back to back with 2 facing starboard and the other 2 facing port. If the rules stated that cyclors couldnt play any other role on the boat you could get  semi professional cyclists for chump change. You could put them inside the hull were they can do no harm to the running of the boat. I think KZ1 had grinders inside the hull

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^ A big fuckin turbo diesel would be the answer. Worked OK for ROXI for a while.

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14 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

^ A big fuckin turbo diesel would be the answer. Worked OK for ROXI for a while.

i rekon next ac should use the 50's again and just chuck a lawnmower motor in each hull, get a few guys lying inside the pod and thats it

just shit tones of monitors and buttons and it would be just like flying an aeroplane

and with no one in the open air, low aero drag

true formula 1 racing

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Iain Murray joins Australian Sailing as Performance Director

One of Australia's most accomplished sailors, Iain Murray has been appointed to the role of Performance Director of Australian Sailing according to a report on Fox Sport's website.

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Iain-Murray-joins-Australian-Sailing-as-Performance-Director/156940

 

 

Large_iainwithcliff.jpg

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https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/96458344/consortium-of-wealthy-aussies-eye-americas-cup-challenge-for-auckland-2021

 

 

Quote

 

Wealthy Australians eye America's Cup challenge for Auckland 2021

 

The prospect of Australia rejoining the America's Cup for Auckland 2021 continues to build momentum.

The Australian newspaper reports that "a consortium of wealthy Australian businessmen - and keen yachties - might already be quietly discussing mounting a joint Australian entry".

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5 hours ago, TimmyHate said:

Timmy I see you've posted this to two threads.  No new info in this squib. It just regurgitates stuff that's been posted in the other thread named "Australian Challenge" which is far more comprehensive.

I know it's like herding cats (no pun intended) but I reckon that feeding the other thread will be more worthwhile.  I've added a note there about RG's latest in sail-world.

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10 minutes ago, KiwiJoker said:

Timmy I see you've posted this to two threads.  No new info in this squib. It just regurgitates stuff that's been posted in the other thread named "Australian Challenge" which is far more comprehensive.

I know it's like herding cats (no pun intended) but I reckon that feeding the other thread will be more worthwhile.  I've added a note there about RG's latest in sail-world.

Yep a good call

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Will Australians be sailing for Australia?

The prospect of Australia rejoining the America’s Cup for Auckland 2021 continues to build momentum. The Australian newspaper reports that “a consortium of wealthy Australian businessmen – and keen yachties – might already be quietly discussing mounting a joint Australian entry.”

What grates the Australians is that so many of the key crew and management of foreign syndicates are now filled with Australians – Glenn Ashby skippered Team New Zealand’s catamaran, Jimmy Spithill, Kyle Langford and Tom Slingbsy were the main men on Oracle and Nathan Outteridge was at the helm of the impressive Swedish entry Artemis Racing.

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2017/09/04/will-australians-sailing-australia/

 

 

 

 

2017-09-04_11-51-22-620x350.jpg

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Australia II’s feat can be repeated in America’s Cup says Tom Slingsby

The long-term goal of the first Australian to be named World Sailor of the Year is to see the America’s Cup fought in the natural amphitheatre of Sydney Harbour.

He would also like to see a Bledisloe Cup style competition battle with New Zealand raced in the lead up to the Cup.

“I just need to find that national pride and spirit we saw in 1983, the type of backing the New Zealander’s give their All-Blacks and their sailing.”

 

“The last America’s Cup was all about power to weight ratio and all our grinders were 98 kilos, but with more traditional sailing we will need lighter and women could be an option with their tactical ability and steering expertise.

“I would like to see a woman sailing. It is an old boys club.”

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/swoop/australia-iis-feat-can-be-repeated-in-americas-cup-says-tom-slingsby/news-story/9d5c7b1ae1f17a0dd3083f43fae4a0c0

 

The Bledisloe Cup for those not from round here, held up by Sir Richie!

 

 

 

 

bledisloe-cup-1200.jpg

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2 hours ago, Barnyb said:

Australia II’s feat can be repeated in America’s Cup says Tom Slingsby

The long-term goal of the first Australian to be named World Sailor of the Year is to see the America’s Cup fought in the natural amphitheatre of Sydney Harbour.

He would also like to see a Bledisloe Cup style competition battle with New Zealand raced in the lead up to the Cup.

“I just need to find that national pride and spirit we saw in 1983, the type of backing the New Zealander’s give their All-Blacks and their sailing.”

 

“The last America’s Cup was all about power to weight ratio and all our grinders were 98 kilos, but with more traditional sailing we will need lighter and women could be an option with their tactical ability and steering expertise.

“I would like to see a woman sailing. It is an old boys club.”

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/swoop/australia-iis-feat-can-be-repeated-in-americas-cup-says-tom-slingsby/news-story/9d5c7b1ae1f17a0dd3083f43fae4a0c0

 

The Bledisloe Cup for those not from round here, held up by Sir Richie!

 

 

 

 

bledisloe-cup-1200.jpg

Or as he is known locally - God

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"He would also like to see a Bledisloe Cup style competition battle with New Zealand raced in the lead up to the Cup."

Racing between a challenger and the defender prior to the Cup then. It seems uncharacteristically quiet on the ANZAC front as far as condemnation of that particular proposal is concerned.

 

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“It’s about one big fish coming in then everyone will follow. Someone believe in what we could do and getting behind us and getting a whole country."

Let's see, how many times have I heard this from start up entrepreneurs who end up never finding that big fish? Unfortunately, I'd say that if he doesn't have the big fish on the line already, he's not likely to get one in time to secure the design talent. I suppose his interview also means that OTAUS is not going to happen since, clearly, Larry is the very definition of a big fish.  

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12 hours ago, dogwatch said:

"He would also like to see a Bledisloe Cup style competition battle with New Zealand raced in the lead up to the Cup."

Racing between a challenger and the defender prior to the Cup then. It seems uncharacteristically quiet on the ANZAC front as far as condemnation of that particular proposal is concerned.

 

Will never happen. The All Blacks don't help the Wallabies. Why should ETNZ help them? It's just wistful thinking by him for gainful employment...

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^^^ Fuck off, Aussie. We'll meet you in the Cup - if you're good enough.

 

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12 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

^^^ Fuck off, Aussie. We'll meet you in the Cup - if you're good enough.

 

Lol! A gentle way with words as always SBD :D

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Oracle Team USA's Jimmy Spithill wants Australia back in the America's Cup

"If you look around the teams over the past few campaigns, you see Aussies littered throughout all of them," Spithill said at a yachting charity event in Canberra, reported by The Age.

"We're so associated with the water in Australia and I think the fact that the next one in is in New Zealand it wouldn't be surprising at all [to see an Australian team].

 

Spithill said he believes millionaire and reigning Sydney to Hobart winner, Anthony Bell, could be the key figure in backing the Australian Challenge.

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11957237

 

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"All the guys involved in that 2000 programme have gone onto some pretty successful careers... I was very young and it was a real bare bone campaign but it was a lot of fun ... I honestly don't know what my plans are right now, just keeping my options open."   - Jimmy Spithill

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/99722421/will-he-or-wont-he-jimmy-spithill-wants-australia-to-challenge-for-americas-cup-but-is-in-two-minds-about-returning

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28 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

"All the guys involved in that 2000 programme have gone onto some pretty successful careers... I was very young and it was a real bare bone campaign but it was a lot of fun ... I honestly don't know what my plans are right now, just keeping my options open."   - Jimmy Spithill

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/99722421/will-he-or-wont-he-jimmy-spithill-wants-australia-to-challenge-for-americas-cup-but-is-in-two-minds-about-returning

Hope springs eternal..

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41 minutes ago, AKL wino said:

FWIW, Spithill is in AKL at the mo. Groupies were seen lusting after him while he was jogging thru Herne Bay on the weekend....

Trannies??

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6 hours ago, AKL wino said:

FWIW, Spithill is in AKL at the mo. Groupies were seen lusting after him while he was jogging thru Herne Bay on the weekend....

He should just let himself go, and go back to bricklaying and drinking like all the best educated Australians.

 

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from https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/23/sports/sailing/sydney-hobart-yacht-race-australia.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

...

For now, the only Australian sailor who holds the Cup is Ashby, the skipper and star wing trimmer of Team New Zealand, which, unlike Oracle, took calculated risk after calculated risk that paid off. Those included the decision to use stationary bikes on board to generate hydraulic power, an innovation that Dan Bernasconi, the Team New Zealand design coordinator, said would not be permitted in 2021.

Slingsby said his understanding was that Ellison did not plan to back a challenge in 2021. Of the six teams that took part in Bermuda, only Team New Zealand and the British syndicate, Land Rover BAR, appear set to continue, and despite all the sailing talent in Australia, Slingsby is far from certain his prospective team will make it to the starting line either.

Team New Zealand and challenger Luna Rossa Challenge have released early plans for the new class of Cup yachts, and although the design is undeniably innovative — a high-performance foiling monohull with twin canting foils and no keel — it also has raised cost concerns because of its complexity.

Though the class rule is not set to be released until March, Team New Zealand has confirmed that it plans to have an open hull design, meaning teams will be free within the constraints of the rule to explore (and spend heavily on) different options. The rigid wings used as mainsails in the last two Cups are unlikely to be used in 2021, and there may be no limits on how many soft sails a team can make.

“It confuses me, especially for a boat designed to be out of the water, why we have to have an open hull design,” Slingsby said. “You’re just adding unnecessary costs in some areas. I had my time writing rules for the America’s Cup, and we lost fair and square, so it’s not in my hands, but I just hope they are not overdoing it.”

After initially estimating the budget for his team at $100 million, Slingsby is now concerned that it may need to be closer to $150 million, which is proving dissuasive to investors.

“When the boat came out, it was really exciting thinking this really takes sailing into a new spot, but as soon as you start getting into breakdowns of the financials and the complexity of the engineering and the cost of some of these components, you quickly realize this America’s Cup is going to be very, very expensive; a lot more than the last one,” Slingsby said. “They’ve got to do something to rein in the costs; otherwise new team bids like potentially Team Australia are not going to happen.”

Australia has a rich history in the Cup. Australia II, bankrolled by Alan Bond and skippered by John Bertrand, sparked a national celebration in 1983 when it ended the New York Yacht Club’s 132-year winning streak and brought the trophy down under.

Bertrand has been advising Slingsby. But an Australian team has yet to win it again, and largely because of the cost factor, there has been no challenger from Australia since 2000, when Spithill was a 20-year-old helmsman on the underfunded syndicate Young Australia.

Since then, most Australians of great means who are interested in sailing have been content to fund Sydney-Hobart campaigns and enjoy the annual Boxing Day spectacle as the yachts leave Sydney Harbor.

But there is no doubt that this generation of Australian sailors is exceptional, and Slingsby, who says he needs firm financial commitments in the next month, said it would be a shame to miss the bigger opportunity.

“It’s just the right time with the Cup in New Zealand and so many of our great sailors at the peak of their careers,” he said. “They’re all raring to go for an Australian team, but I’ve got to be able to find the platform for these guys and myself to do what we do best.”

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^ .. ‘The rules are completely different.’

That may turn out to be the case, especially if the Jury decides from the track that JS ‘hunted’ WOXI. I watched it live and didn’t think JS did but the heli shot wasn’t conclusive.

Despite my rooting for C it won’t ‘look good’ for this great event if the result gets overturned, so hopefully the facts and rules work out that way. It’s a fiasco but fortunately about just a sailboat race in the end.

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3 hours ago, nav said:

Popcorn time...

"It's not an America's Cup..."  :lol:

Can they all play nice and put a team together ........ or not?

.....

Not AC but a great finish. Another classic S-H, one of my favorite blue water classics!

The skipper on Comanche looked familiar too.

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Today Tom Slingsby is in Hobart with all the wealthy Australian boat owners and many of the top sailors. If Team Australia does not get a kick off today it will not happen.

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Sailing: 'Desperate' Jimmy Spithill got his way, Kiwi aboard Wild Oats XI says

 

When asked if there were any hard feelings, Mason replied: "Absolutely there is. We reckon Jimmy's getting a little bit desperate for a win. But, anyway, he can take that, that's cool."

 

 

"We're obviously shattered. We broke the record and we're going to lose that. An hour penalty, we're struggling the fathom the reasoning, but that's sport.

"It's an ocean race. In all respect, we were surprised they wanted to go to the room but they've done that and this is the result. At the end of the day, you don't want to go to the protest room – stay out of it

"We were confused that they gave us an hour. We thought the penalty, if we were in the wrong and did our terms, would have probably cost us five minutes."

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11967130

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That headline is pretty misleading after you listen to the actual interview. Mason did use those words at the very end but it was a humorous, throwaway line.

edit, you can hear him laughing at the end of the audio at http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/sport/kiwi-sailor-matt-manson-rips-into-jimmy-spithill-and-comanche-after-sydney-hobart/

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16 hours ago, Barnyb said:

"We were confused that they gave us an hour. We thought the penalty, if we were in the wrong and did our terms, would have probably cost us five minutes."
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11967130

Well, it's rather simple then: They should have done their turns, and would have kept the line honors and record.

I fail to feel bad for them TBH.

EDIT: The editor of the new forum software sucks!!!

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"We were confused that they gave us an hour. "

They might be surprised. They might be displeased. I fail to see how they could be "confused".

 

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^ So much bullshit over that incident, poor decisions, sledging, jokes, attempts to frame things more positively/influence the outcome, big egos in full flight and generally amateurish  behaviour from many who should/are paid to know better.

The "An hour, bloody hell, why wasn't it only 5 mins?" (to paraphrase) was a classic - especially when the decision read "In lieu of disqualification..." :D

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The one thing that is certain, is that this outcome while being "totally fair and totally deserved for the Comanche team" does not do anything for the image and reputation of a sport that is struggling to get traction, acquire and/ or maintain its place as a top tier sport. We all expect these kind of antics in the Americas Cup, as it has become "normal" and "part of the game" in the Americas Cup. But for an Ocean Race to be won in a jury room is quite simply unfathomable. Yes, Wild Oats XI made a bonehead move, which may or may not have been unsafe, and infringed, but sailing needs to change the way it deals with penalties, otherwise it will struggle to keep its TV audience, which has flow on effects, like potentially losing sponsors, losing competitors and losing money. The sailing audience alone is not enough to break even. There is a "bigger picture" to take into consideration. If the Sydney Hobart line honors trophy is decided this way (second place on the water wins the race) many more times, the viewing public, which is already waning will simply switch off. No broadcast coverage means no sponsorship, which means less or no teams. Yes rules must be enforced, but IMO if rules are going to be enforced, they need to be enforced on the spot, at the time like every other sport ie Wild Oats XI should have been instantly instructed by the RO to perform a penalty turn or be disqualified, not left to an honesty policy, to decide for themselves whether they had infringed or not, because as a professional racing team who wants to win, of course they're going to think they are innocent. Ocean races especially, must be decided on the water, not in the jury room.

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^ Hmmm, who's that grabbing the silverware then - if second place on the water wins the race?

cyca-commodore-john-markos-matt-allen-an

 

because as a professional racing team who wants to win, of course they're going to think they are innocent

what a bizarre idea of professional you seem to have - even 'reasonably competent' should have covered that cross (and their responsibilities having in all probability screwed it up...)

Way to give back to the sport guys :(

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^^ The P/S incident was a TV highlight of this year’s race, it is appropriate that the audience sees there was a consequence of some kind.

Better, especially visually on live TV, would have been to watch WOXI make their turns before rejoining the chase. Given the eventual driftathon in the Derwent they would likely still have won, a much better storyline.

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

The one thing that is certain, is that this outcome while being "totally fair and totally deserved for the Comanche team" does not do anything for the image and reputation of a sport that is struggling to get traction, acquire and/ or maintain its place as a top tier sport. We all expect these kind of antics in the Americas Cup, as it has become "normal" and "part of the game" in the Americas Cup. But for an Ocean Race to be won in a jury room is quite simply unfathomable. Yes, Wild Oats XI made a bonehead move, which may or may not have been unsafe, and infringed, but sailing needs to change the way it deals with penalties, otherwise it will struggle to keep its TV audience, which has flow on effects, like potentially losing sponsors, losing competitors and losing money. The sailing audience alone is not enough to break even. There is a "bigger picture" to take into consideration. If the Sydney Hobart line honors trophy is decided this way (second place on the water wins the race) many more times, the viewing public, which is already waning will simply switch off. No broadcast coverage means no sponsorship, which means less or no teams. Yes rules must be enforced, but IMO if rules are going to be enforced, they need to be enforced on the spot, at the time like every other sport ie Wild Oats XI should have been instantly instructed by the RO to perform a penalty turn or be disqualified, not left to an honesty policy, to decide for themselves whether they had infringed or not, because as a professional racing team who wants to win, of course they're going to think they are innocent. Ocean races especially, must be decided on the water, not in the jury room.

All very well in Sydney Harbour, but how would this work mid-Bass Strait or deep in the SO or North Atlantic? This is Ocean Racing after all.

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6 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

All very well in Sydney Harbour, but how would this work mid-Bass Strait or deep in the SO or North Atlantic? This is Ocean Racing after all.

And 102 boats at that..

Liveline is/was great technology, hopefully that or something even better will get deployed for AC36.

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31 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

All very well in Sydney Harbour, but how would this work mid-Bass Strait or deep in the SO or North Atlantic? This is Ocean Racing after all.

I don't think you would have a problem, as mid bass strait, the boats just don't get that close. The same goes for the mid Atlantic. Obviously there needs to be evidence, which in this case there was an abundance of, including video evidence shot from multiple angles. But without evidence, there is no protest, as it becomes one's word against another. Navigational data is the only way to determine who is in the wrong, however it can only be used as supporting evidence, as was the case in "that incident".

Hopefully from now on they will use on the water umpires until a certain point where it becomes impractical to do so to prevent his sort of incident happening again.

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17 minutes ago, sclarke said:

Hopefully from now on they will use on the water umpires until a certain point where it becomes impractical to do so to prevent his sort of incident happening again.

Apparently Stan Honey did provide to the Jury digital evidence of Comanche’s course so they must have the data. The trick is all the real-time uploading, if you want to accomplish effective on the water umpiring.

The AC34, and even more so the AC35 datasets, even what was free to the public, even live-streamed, was absolutely terrific. Those datasets do still exist at their original URLs, btw.

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12 minutes ago, nav said:

Huh? On the water umpiring? Data sets? How about just abiding by the rules of the sport - or not taking part?

Clarkey had a reasonable point, OTW Umpiring would have been good.

The recent AC data sets were brilliant too, I can show good stats from any leg of any boat in any races in the AC35 CSS and Match. Could easily even plot their tracks if I wanted to. The ETNZ pitchpole stats were fantastic!

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Wankers. Talk about data sets, loggers, cameras and on water judgers. This race was run under the same rules as all other races. Its a boat race not a TV show. Half of the boats probably cost less than one of WOXI's sails. These owners are not going to pay for all that extra crap, let alone the millions of dinghy racers racing under the same rules and who all rely on the RRS, decency, honesty and the protest system.

The Jury decision stands, Comanche holds the race record, Oats does not even hold the course record, that belongs to Langman's 60ft Tri at several hours faster. Oats time will be forgatten in a few weeks.

Get over it, and get this thread back to the Aus AC team. Does anyone have any info on Hobart discussions.

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3 hours ago, nav said:

So recruit dishonest geeks? Oh wait....

There was nothing "Dishonest" about the incident, or the actions of either crew. By all accounts Wild Oats thought they were innocent. If you don't believe them, thats your problem, but remember, those guys are highly accomplished, highly respected sailors, versus a bunch of online forum posters. I know who I would believe.
 

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5 hours ago, Phil S said:

 Its a boat race not a TV show.

Absolutely and if there were no major media interest, most of the boats and sailors would still do it. Maybe fewer gigs for the professionals, well boo-hoo.

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2 hours ago, sclarke said:

There was nothing "Dishonest" about the incident, or the actions of either crew. By all accounts Wild Oats thought they were innocent. If you don't believe them, thats your problem, but remember, those guys are highly accomplished, highly respected sailors, versus a bunch of online forum posters. I know who I would believe.
 

The opinions of "online forum posters" aren't germane, we have the opinion of the IJ.

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5 hours ago, Phil S said:

Get over it, and get this thread back to the Aus AC team. Does anyone have any info on Hobart discussions.

There are a couple of Kiwis who have yet to work out that it was an incident between two Australian boats with Australian helms in Australian waters in an Australian race that has nothing what so ever to do with the America's Cup. Maybe they're still getting over losing in 2013.

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Spithill's involvement means it has a little bit to do with the AC. Tenuous, yes. But we are fairly desperate for actual AC news so straws will be clutched.

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^ IM? The Oatleys, HIYC - COR AC35, remember them?

Come on if the crews and owners of those boats are no involved in some way in the 'Aussie team for AC36??' considerations i'll eat a wombat

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7 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Absolutely and if there were no major media interest, most of the boats and sailors would still do it. Maybe fewer gigs for the professionals, well boo-hoo.

hard to call it 'major media interest' dw, because the race really doesn't move the needle for the mainstream media outside little NSW with blips in the other 'big' aussie cities. In fact it is quite provincial in exposure unlike say the Fastnet, which gets quite a lot of mainstream press or even something like say the Chicago Mackinac, simply because you have 20 million people living within a few hours of the race and 350 boats.

Thanks to the fact that nothing else is going on in the sport this week every year,  the Hobart is followed by the sailing media like no other.  The media interest among sailing sites and pubs is likely responsible for some portion of the international entrants.  Is it 20 entries?  40?  No idea.

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Lack of International entries Clean? Seriously?

You big-up the Mac' and the so called 'Trans'-Pac though don't you?

But compared to the Fastnet then - where would all the International entries come from?

B-cbV4KCYAA2Nkp.jpg

 

nothing else is going on in the sport this week every year

Anywhere?

image.png

Geography mate - It's not like this everywhere...

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The Sydney/Hobart and the protest were covered in at least two major UK broadsheet papers, so not just "big in Australia". Contrariwise I've never seen the Mackinac mentioned outside SA.

Not really my point anyway, which was that media coverage of sailing is the tail which should not be allowed to wag the dog.

 

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Interesting utterance from John Bertrand at Sandringham Yacht Club last night where he was doing a Q and A with yacht design legend Ron Holland in front of a sizeable audience.

A question was asked about the next Americas Cup and Bertrand took the opportunity to espouse his view ahead of that of Ron Holland to whom the question had been directed. Bertrand stated quite categorically that there will not be an Australian challenger because Corporate Australia doesn't see the benefit and doesn't have the stomach for that sort of cost ((c) $170Mill Aus) with such a low return on offer in a promotional or marketing sense. 

He failed to mention how Corporate Australia got its arse reamed last time they stumped up for a tilt at The Cup.

 

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2 hours ago, Last Post said:

Interesting utterance from John Bertrand at Sandringham Yacht Club last night where he was doing a Q and A with yacht design legend Ron Holland in front of a sizeable audience.

A question was asked about the next Americas Cup and Bertrand took the opportunity to espouse his view ahead of that of Ron Holland to whom the question had been directed. Bertrand stated quite categorically that there will not be an Australian challenger because Corporate Australia doesn't see the benefit and doesn't have the stomach for that sort of cost ((c) $170Mill Aus) with such a low return on offer in a promotional or marketing sense. 

He failed to mention how Corporate Australia got its arse reamed last time they stumped up for a tilt at The Cup.

 

Good comms. Thanks mate. And Lennie is back with the Kiwis as well.... Not looking good for the Ockers. 

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Has there been a Cup cycle in decades with so little interest expressed at this stage by potential challengers? It's a dying event.

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51 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Has there been a Cup cycle in decades with so little interest expressed at this stage by potential challengers? It's a dying event.

yeah, and Dalton killed it

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6 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Has there been a Cup cycle in decades with so little interest expressed at this stage by potential challengers? It's a dying event.

Ha! I suggested the same thing in the TEAMS? thread and was branded as "uninformed"  :)  But yeah, if corporate Australia can't get behind an event taking place only two time zones away from the majority of their population, what other entity is going to get behind a massively expensive event on a new platform taking place in NZ during the northern hemisphere's winter? The list gets very short very quickly. Basically either self-funding (DeVos/Fauth) or running it through a company you control (Bertelli) or government funded (no challengers ... yet). Seems only Sir Ben has been able to land any sort of corporate backing from a company that is more than an arm's length away from his control. 

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5 hours ago, inebriated said:

yeah, and Dalton killed it

It hasn't even been a year! We have a protocol and in a months time we'll have a class rule. The first year is always, ALWAYS a quiet year for the cup. 

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I chatted with Tom Slingsby recently and as I have said before, there will be no Australian challenge. He lays the blame well and truly at Grant Dalton's feet. For years, GD has been complaining about costs, about how hard up his team is and that they are disadvantaged but make the best use of the money. Now his protocol and proposed design is going to make this the single most expensive cycle in cup history. Tom had funding and a team capable of winning ready to go when he believed the next cycle could be done for about US$50m (under the London Protocl). His first reading of the protocol suggested it would cost US$100m. Now they properly understand the new design and all other factors, they are talking more like US$135m. 

I accept that when you are the defender you can do what you want, but this is another example of the hypocrisy that would we should be used to but still manages to surprise. Is it simply a case of not caring about costs or is it a deliberate attempt to scare challengers off?

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^ GD’s job is to always cry poor because he is a fundraiser but in one example, AC34, publicly available data shows that despite his statements ETNZ burned through NZ$178M in that (yes, prolonged) AC cycle.

It is not out of the realm of possibilities that they can and will outspend everyone this time, at the Director’s level they may even be ‘weaponizing’ it to their advantage. Which is their right, but still..

Too bad about Slingsby’s effort though, and thanks for the insider info about what happened.

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6 hours ago, sclarke said:

Fixed

It was right the first time. In Australia we'd use "killed it" as a bloody good thing.

 

"How'd you go at the pub last night?"

Mate, I killed it. I had 14 beers, a chicken schnitzel and after the pub closed I banged the barmaid on the pool table.

"Killed it."

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13 minutes ago, Jason AUS said:

It was right the first time. In Australia we'd use "killed it" as a bloody good thing.

 

"How'd you go at the pub last night?"

Mate, I killed it. I had 14 beers, a chicken schnitzel and after the pub closed I banged the barmaid on the pool table.

"Killed it."

14 beers, is that all!? What a lightweight!18 box is where its at! Chicken schnitzel? I don't know what kind of pubs they have in Aussie, but over here we do Steak! Hope you made sure that barmaid has had her shots, other wise she might just...

Kill you!

Aussies...no surprises there.

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

I chatted with Tom Slingsby recently and as I have said before, there will be no Australian challenge. He lays the blame well and truly at Grant Dalton's feet. For years, GD has been complaining about costs, about how hard up his team is and that they are disadvantaged but make the best use of the money. Now his protocol and proposed design is going to make this the single most expensive cycle in cup history. Tom had funding and a team capable of winning ready to go when he believed the next cycle could be done for about US$50m (under the London Protocl). His first reading of the protocol suggested it would cost US$100m. Now they properly understand the new design and all other factors, they are talking more like US$135m. 

I accept that when you are the defender you can do what you want, but this is another example of the hypocrisy that would we should be used to but still manages to surprise. Is it simply a case of not caring about costs or is it a deliberate attempt to scare challengers off?

How many supermaxis are there floating around in Aussie, LDV Comanche, Wild Oats XI, BlackJack 100, Infotrack, 4 programs who maintain supermaxi yachts year round for one race a year, one race! Why can't those 3 teams work together to mount a decent challenge? Why can't they pool their resources and put a campaign together and challenge, especially given the talent Australia currently has. Its not GD's fault Australia cares more about monohull supermaxi's than the AC. The guys with the money won't play because they know public support for an AC campaign is virtually non existent. The public don't care because they've forgotten what the Americas Cup means, and even what it looks like because they havent seen it in so long! Again...not GD's fault. The only way Australia would get involved is if it were raced from Sydney to Hobart in 100 foot supermaxis. 

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1 hour ago, A Class Sailor said:

I chatted with Tom Slingsby recently and as I have said before, there will be no Australian challenge. He lays the blame well and truly at Grant Dalton's feet. For years, GD has been complaining about costs, about how hard up his team is and that they are disadvantaged but make the best use of the money. Now his protocol and proposed design is going to make this the single most expensive cycle in cup history. Tom had funding and a team capable of winning ready to go when he believed the next cycle could be done for about US$50m (under the London Protocl). His first reading of the protocol suggested it would cost US$100m. Now they properly understand the new design and all other factors, they are talking more like US$135m. 

I accept that when you are the defender you can do what you want, but this is another example of the hypocrisy that would we should be used to but still manages to surprise. Is it simply a case of not caring about costs or is it a deliberate attempt to scare challengers off?

It was predicted he was out of his depth in terms of raising the funds, and so it's a shame that Slingers wants to blame someone else for his own inability to raise the cash necessary to compete in a new AC cycle... I trust he's happy you've quoted him calling GD out and we'll see similar comments in public from him? 

As for his other allegation about how cheaply you can "compete" in LA cycle vs AC36... Syndicates will spend whatever it takes to ensure they have done their best to challenge or defend - for some teams this means a lot, for others it means less... he might be convinced that you need to spend that much to win AC36 - and let's face it he comes from a team that threw more money at AC in the last 2 cycles than anyone else (and still lost!). However ETNZ proved you can win without spending the most (albeit plenty) amount of money...

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1 minute ago, sclarke said:

14 beers, is that all!? What a lightweight!18 box is where its at! Chicken schnitzel? I don't know what kind of pubs they have in Aussie, but over here we do Steak! Hope you made sure that barmaid has had her shots, other wise she might just...

Kill you!

Aussies...no surprises there.

Hang on old son... if your chicken schnitzel isn't covered in tomato sauce, ham, cheese and then grilled to buggery you're a bloody pooftah! But not everyone knows what a chicken parmie is (with respect to our rootin,', shootin', gun toting American cousins). It's pretty hard to f*ck up a chicken parmie, and no real man trusts anyone but himself to cook a steak properly.

 

And the barmaid doesn't need to have her shots. Just put some Dencorub on the old fella before you give her one and that'll kill any crabs. It may kill her too, but the crabs won't be a problem.

 

I will say you're a bigger man than me. At 14 beers I'm playing like a champion. At 16 I'm dancing with brewer's droop and at 18 I'm face down under the table. It's a finely tuned thing.

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