peterivanac

Team Australia

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

You really do make it up as you go along. ETNZ had 2 AC72's and they built one for Luna Rossa which they trained against. 

As for 2017, everybody only had one boat.

It is very naive to think any team will get away with only building one of these new AC boats when others are building 2.

You really are clutching at straws aren't you. And you call ETNZ fans whingers! ETNZ never had two working AC72's at one time. One was cannibalised to provide parts for the other.

By your logic, Oracle must've had 2 boats in 2017 last year but put Softbank all over the other one. 

Why? There has always been teams running two boat programs and teams running one boat campaigns. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, sclarke said:

 The first year is always, ALWAYS a quiet year for the cup. 

Complete nonsense. The first year is when wannabe challengers talk up their chances and their sponsorship deals and optimists predict multi-digit challengers. What we have instead is close to silence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, nav said:

Crowdfunding......come on Aussie!

It'll never happen. They'd struggle to raise $120,000 through crowd funding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Complete nonsense. The first year is when wannabe challengers talk up their chances and their sponsorship deals and optimists predict multi-digit challengers. What we have instead is close to silence.

Nope. That would be the second year. Nothing ever happens in the first year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

Complete nonsense. The first year is when wannabe challengers talk up their chances and their sponsorship deals and optimists predict multi-digit challengers. What we have instead is close to silence.

It's amazing how some people have this presumption of entitlement to be informed of everything that's going on in the AC36 organisation. You are entitled to sweet fuck-all! For the record, there's a lot more in the In tray on RNZYS Commodore's desk than your muppet speculations....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Indio said:

Of course Slingsby will blame Dalton. Easier to blame someone else than accept the fact that they've never had to go out into the cold hard world and try to raise corporate sponsorship for the last few editions of AC. Welcome to ETNZ's world.

 

 

I find this claim a little disingenuous. So he felt $50mil was enough to compete and win it under the London Agreement, yet had the cheaters defended successfully Slingsby and his merry mates would still be sucking off Uncle Larry's tits for AC36 and therefore unlikely to be running an Aussie team. Did Slingsby honestly believe that ETNZ would pay any heed to the London Agreement the moment they crossed the line in BDA?

Blaming Dalton for his inability to secure sponsorship might make Slingsby feel better but it won't get him to the main table.

There is one point we should all be able to agree on: the change of boat away from the AC50s was at the cost of another potential entry (Australia). Add this to the other teams like Artemis and SoftBank (and maybe Team France).

Whether there are enough new entries to make up for this remains to be seen, but it's not looking good at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Fireball said:

There is one point we should all be able to agree on: the change of boat away from the AC50s was at the cost of another potential entry (Australia). Add this to the other teams like Artemis and SoftBank (and maybe Team France).

Whether there are enough new entries to make up for this remains to be seen, but it's not looking good at the moment.

"the change of boat away from the AC50s was at the cost of another potential entry (Australia)" was it? If a small country like New Zealand can raise the money to compete in the Americas Cup, a country the size of Australia with, (as everyone says) all the best sailing talent in the world today, can raise enough money to compete in the Americas Cup. They have enough money to run 4 Supermaxi programs, so complaining about the event being too expensive, when you have the Oatley family, Jim Cooney, Peter Harburg and Christian Beck pouring money into Supermaxi campaigns and guys like Anthony Bell in the mix as well is fairly hard to understand. Australia no doubt has the money and resources to put a very competitive campaign together, they just can't be bothered doing it. They don't do it because public support for an Americas Cup team is non existent. Too blame this issue on a boat change, or costs is simply misleading and is an excuse for their inability to raise money. The Americas Cup could've been sailed in Opti's and the Aussies would've found an excuse to not do it. That's the reality of the situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, sclarke said:

"the change of boat away from the AC50s was at the cost of another potential entry (Australia)" was it? If a small country like New Zealand can raise the money to compete in the Americas Cup, a country the size of Australia with, (as everyone says) all the best sailing talent in the world today, can raise enough money to compete in the Americas Cup. They have enough money to run 4 Supermaxi programs, so complaining about the event being too expensive, when you have the Oatley family, Jim Cooney, Peter Harburg and Christian Beck pouring money into Supermaxi campaigns and guys like Anthony Bell in the mix as well is fairly hard to understand. Australia no doubt has the money and resources to put a very competitive campaign together, they just can't be bothered doing it. They don't do it because public support for an Americas Cup team is non existent. Too blame this issue on a boat change, or costs is simply misleading and is an excuse for their inability to raise money. The Americas Cup could've been sailed in Opti's and the Aussies would've found an excuse to not do it. That's the reality of the situation.

you really think that the four supermaxi owners would have the spare cash lying around for the ac together?!

three of them only just got theirs, they're not exactly going to put that off so they can put their money together for an AC.

the reason AU won't have a challenge is because no-one fucking cares about that americas cup anymore here that has any money

i'd say that the only thing that will get us back in would be if this AC is really fucking good, which it's already shaping out not to be...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Australia isn't a person. Neither are any of the other countries entering (or not.) There is no "can't be bothered." Countries don't have emotions or reasons. 

The AC has lived on individuals, individuals with a mix (in varying proportions) of enthusiasm, vision and money. Plus a goodly dose of obsession.  The AC has historically been something for the insanely wealthy to burn some of their money on. Only very recently has sponsorship been allowed. And even then, it isn't clear that much of that sponsorship ever made the companies any useful ROI, rather than just a way of liberating money from the coffers of companies owned by those insanely wealthy in a tax effective manner. What the AC has, is serious competition for the insanely wealthy's money, and more importantly, time. No matter how rich you are, you only have the same number of seconds in a day  and days in a year as the rest of us. Signing up for the AC is signing up for a multi-year commitment - and if you already have lots of fun things to do with your life - this would be a distraction. 

Not every billionaire is a sailing enthusiast, and of those that are, most don't give a shit about the AC.  It isn't for any given country to somehow cajole or threaten their very rich into joining the AC circus as if it were some sort of prime directive. It is bad enough with the wretched Olympics becoming a matter of national pride, without every other silly sport somehow inserting itself in the queue for money as if they somehow intrinsically had a god given right. It is a sport. That is all it is. Just a sport. If your tiny niche of a sport can't garner the interest, don't whinge - maybe try harder next time.

  • Like 3
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sclarke said:

"the change of boat away from the AC50s was at the cost of another potential entry (Australia)" was it? If a small country like New Zealand can raise the money to compete in the Americas Cup, a country the size of Australia with, (as everyone says) all the best sailing talent in the world today, can raise enough money to compete in the Americas Cup. They have enough money to run 4 Supermaxi programs, so complaining about the event being too expensive, when you have the Oatley family, Jim Cooney, Peter Harburg and Christian Beck pouring money into Supermaxi campaigns and guys like Anthony Bell in the mix as well is fairly hard to understand. Australia no doubt has the money and resources to put a very competitive campaign together, they just can't be bothered doing it. They don't do it because public support for an Americas Cup team is non existent. Too blame this issue on a boat change, or costs is simply misleading and is an excuse for their inability to raise money. The Americas Cup could've been sailed in Opti's and the Aussies would've found an excuse to not do it. That's the reality of the situation.

It's not about finding excuses or sailing Opti's - according to Slingsby he could have got funding for an AC50 campaign, but he can't raise the money for the new AC75.

In Australia, there's no prospect of the government putting tax dollars into the America's Cup, so it's private or commercial funding. Slingsby has an excellent background to lead a challenge and he's been working on it for most of the time since AC35.

So that's one less entry due to the change of boat. I thought that was an uncontroversial fact.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

^ GD’s job is to always cry poor because he is a fundraiser but in one example, AC34, publicly available data shows that despite his statements ETNZ burned through NZ$178M in that (yes, prolonged) AC cycle.

It is not out of the realm of possibilities that they can and will outspend everyone this time, at the Director’s level they may even be ‘weaponizing’ it to their advantage. Which is their right, but still..

Too bad about Slingsby’s effort though, and thanks for the insider info about what happened.

Let's break that spin down...

ETNZ spends a lot as a challenger - black mark against ETNZ

A Challenger claims they would need to spend a lot this time - black mark against ETNZ

hmmm.....

 

By the way your claim of ETNZ past spend and Slinger's word of mouth claim of the cost for an AC36 challenge are roughly equivalent - so you and A class need to get on the same page before you can come back with your 'most expensive ever' conspiracy theory

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Complete nonsense. The first year is when wannabe challengers talk up their chances and their sponsorship deals and optimists predict multi-digit challengers. What we have instead is close to silence.

The first year of a Cup cycle has always been lean on news. Sure some cycles are more active challenger wise than others, but compared to further along in the cycle it’s still lean.  

Having said that, the Cup is back down under.  That’s a factor on the Challenger side.  Hard to scrounge up sponsorships for northern hemisphere teams.  Then add a from scratch boat?  

Their might be something to the silence.  Far from a garuntee on a big challenger turnout.  5 might be best case scenario.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah, it is a bit ironic that the man who complained about costs and who ran one of the best teams on a low budget is now ramping up a new class that looks to be more expensive than any previous AC classes

i say "looks to be", but truth is, there is a chance that he could really push for lots of one design components and save costs, but i think that it would take too much away from the dream that he made with the video and it would dumb down the concept a whole heap.

that being said, i thought that there was no chance in hell that they would win the cup, so hey, prove me wrong 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, WetHog said:

The first year of a Cup cycle has always been lean on news. Sure some cycles are more active challenger wise than others, but compared to further along in the cycle it’s still lean.  

Having said that, the Cup is back down under.  That’s a factor on the Challenger side.  Hard to scrounge up sponsorships for northern hemisphere teams.  Then add a from scratch boat?  

Their might be something to the silence.  Far from a garuntee on a big challenger turnout.  5 might be best case scenario.  

WetHog  :ph34r:

5 challengers? or 5 total?

As of now, we have LR+BAR+NYYC = 3 fairly solid challengers. Plus the second Italian challenger about which there has been no news since they announced. Heck, they don't even have a SAAC thread yet and, to paraphrase Eddie Izzard, "no-thread, no-challenge." No west coast US challenge, no Chinese challenge, nothing more out of Europe, and now the Aussies, the most natural challenger of them all, throw in the (funding) towel. 

At this point, I think it's a challenge series with 4 teams. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, inebriated said:

yeah, it is a bit ironic that the man who complained about costs and who ran one of the best teams on a low budget is now ramping up a new class that looks to be more expensive than any previous AC classes

You have no idea of cost, you're just parroting what others have speculated.

i say "looks to be", but truth is, there is a chance that he could really push for lots of one design components and save costs, but i think that it would take too much away from the dream that he made with the video and it would dumb down the concept a whole heap.

There were plenty of One design components involved in the AC50, And you guys think those things were the best thing since sliced bread, now that one design components may be involved in the AC75, it will "dumb down the concept a whole heap" 

that being said, i thought that there was no chance in hell that they would win the cup, so hey, prove me wrong

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While you can of course spend as much as you like on ANY AC campaign, there is no question that the new boats inclusive of development will cost more than twice as much as a decent AC50 campaign - and probably even more than that.

So if cost is an issue - and there sure was a lot of whingeing about cost on these forums when OR was running things - it has certainly not been addressed for AC36.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, sclarke said:

You have no idea of cost, you're just parroting what others have speculated.

If you are a serious AC player and don't have a pretty good idea about what it will cost based on the protocol announced, you really shouldn't be in the game. The numbers that are being talked about by well known AC people aren't guessing out of nothing. They know what percentage of costs are staff, they know how long the cycle is, they know where it is likely to be held. They know it is a totally new rule, they know the requirement for no tank testing and the engineering challenges that come from the long, narrow foil arms. They have a pretty good idea as to the size and weight of the boat and the type of rig and foils. So when people involved with AC teams or really close to teams (such as John Bertrand) all come up with figures up around US$125m as a competitive minimum, any reasonable person would say that is the likely cost and that it bis significantly higher than the minimum competitive costs of previous campaigns.

 

15 hours ago, sclarke said:

You really are clutching at straws aren't you. And you call ETNZ fans whingers! ETNZ never had two working AC72's at one time. One was cannibalised to provide parts for the other.

You stated as an absolute that ETNZ only had 1 boat in 2013. So what that they never had 2 working at the same time. They built 2 boats. You were wrong. Stop making excuses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

You stated as an absolute that ETNZ only had 1 boat in 2013. So what that they never had 2 working at the same time. They built 2 boats. You were wrong. Stop making excuses.

THREE boats - don't forget they shared tech (and costs) with LR. Which also would be an invisible part of the total spending on development compared to OR in that cup cycle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

THREE boats - don't forget they shared tech (and costs) with LR. Which also would be an invisible part of the total spending on development compared to OR in that cup cycle.

As did Oracle last time. They built the softbank Team Japan boat too! So by your logic, they actually did participate in the challenger semi finals, which would have broken their own rules...again!

1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

If you are a serious AC player and don't have a pretty good idea about what it will cost based on the protocol announced, you really shouldn't be in the game. The numbers that are being talked about by well known AC people aren't guessing out of nothing. They know what percentage of costs are staff, they know how long the cycle is, they know where it is likely to be held. They know it is a totally new rule, they know the requirement for no tank testing and the engineering challenges that come from the long, narrow foil arms. They have a pretty good idea as to the size and weight of the boat and the type of rig and foils. So when people involved with AC teams or really close to teams (such as John Bertrand) all come up with figures up around US$125m as a competitive minimum, any reasonable person would say that is the likely cost and that it bis significantly higher than the minimum competitive costs of previous campaigns.

What kind of costs does Bernasconi (The guy whos actually designing the thing) say are involved? What costs have ETNZ come up with? Or does it only matter when its the guys who didn't win last time, and who will always find something to complain about?

You stated as an absolute that ETNZ only had 1 boat in 2013. So what that they never had 2 working at the same time. They built 2 boats. You were wrong. Stop making excuses.

"So what that they never had 2 working at the same time" haha so what? That's your best line? So what? hahahaha you're a joke mate!!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, sclarke said:

As did Oracle last time. They built the softbank Team Japan boat too! So by your logic, they actually did participate in the challenger semi finals, which would have broken their own rules...again!

 

You're half right - OR's budget was smaller than you think, and they further mitigated costs by selling tech to other teams in AC35. There's nothing wrong with that, just like there was nothing wrong with it when ETNZ did it with LR - it's part of the game. But no, they did not compete by proxy via Team Japan - Japan had their own foils, and wing control tech, not even close to what OR was running. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, surfsailor said:

You're half right - OR's budget was smaller than you think, and they further mitigated costs by selling tech to other teams in AC35. There's nothing wrong with that, just like there was nothing wrong with it when ETNZ did it with LR - it's part of the game. But no, they did not compete by proxy via Team Japan - Japan had their own foils, and wing control tech, not even close to what OR was running. 

"There's nothing wrong with that, just like there was nothing wrong with it when ETNZ did it with LR - it's part of the game" HALLELUJAH !!And there we have it! There's a few people on here that need to see this post! There was nothing wrong with the partnership between LR and ETNZ, so we can drop that as an issue right? Good. 

"But no, they did not compete by proxy via Team Japan - Japan had their own foils, and wing control tech, not even close to what OR was running" as was the situation between LR and ETNZ. Wow! that took long enough for that light bulb to go on! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ YOU were the one whingeing about partnerships, not me:

19 minutes ago, sclarke said:

As did Oracle last time. They built the softbank Team Japan boat too! So by your logic, they actually did participate in the challenger semi finals, which would have broken their own rules...again!

 

DOH!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ YOU were the one whingeing about partnerships, not me:

DOH!

Looks like the dead horse isn't so dead after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

image.thumb.png.32e46f04dc374976086b8c524b00e939.pngok

this is probably over speculating

the black jack jumper?

mmmaaaayyyybbbeeee australian interest?

probably just a comfy jumper for a member of both TNZ and BJ to wear though

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/23/2018 at 3:52 PM, Sailbydate said:

It'll never happen. They'd struggle to raise $120.00 through crowd funding.

Fixed it for ya. They would struggle to raise dollar one out of corporate Aus after the reaming they gave their sponsors at their last tilt. Huge salaries at the top, "consultancy" fees etc saw much of the funds spent outside the sailing arena. Serious business corporations have long memories and wide networks. AC for Aus is a thing of the past. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't say I'm surprised Aussie isn't entering the cup, can't say I really care either. You need more than just a few guys like Slingers and Jimmy to win the cup. You need a whole fucking army of really smart guys and Aussie just doesn't have it like New Zealand does. Corporate Australia know this - they're not stupid. Winning in 83 is not remotely comparable to trying to win the thing today. Whilst there are some good individual sailors in Aussie they don't have the sailing culture NZ has - nowhere near it. They don't have the boating or fishing culture of NZ either. The east coast of Aussie is one giant surf beach - there is no Hauraki Gulf, Bay of Plenty, Bay of Islands etc. Sydney harbour as a marine precinct is a joke compared to what's available in NZ. The Broadwater on the Gold coast - another joke.

Access to the sea is fucking difficult for everyone on the east coast outside of Sydney - I know, you have to cross really fucking dangerous bars exposed to ocean swell. Very few of these bars are dredged either. My local one at Brunswick Heads and Ballina hasn't seen a dredge in over 40 years. After the bar gets over 2.5m you're not insured. It aint pleasant crossing them, and I've done it a lot. Every time you go you're putting your life and rig at risk. Plenty opt out and just stick to what is mainstream marine culture in Aussie - the Tinny. Shitty little metal boats that buzz around on rivers and estuaries. Boat ownership in Aussie is low compared to NZ because of the aforementioned reasons. Sailing dinghy fleets are nowhere near the size or variety seen in NZ. Yes there is some nice water up north inside the reef - but it's ridiculously hot, has cyclones and the people are quite mad. Aussie does really well to produce sailors like Slingers and Ashby, but the sailing culture is just not there. They don't have nearly the depth that NZ has in all aspects of recreational marine culture.

I say this as someone who grew up on the Hauraki gulf, then spent 30+ years in Aussie.

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Horn Rock said:

Can't say I'm surprised Aussie isn't entering the cup, can't say I really care either. You need more than just a few guys like Slingers and Jimmy to win the cup. You need a whole fucking army of really smart guys and Aussie just doesn't have it like New Zealand does. Corporate Australia know this - they're not stupid. Winning in 83 is not remotely comparable to trying to win the thing today. Whilst there are some good individual sailors in Aussie they don't have the sailing culture NZ has - nowhere near it. They don't have the boating or fishing culture of NZ either. The east coast of Aussie is one giant surf beach - there is no Hauraki Gulf, Bay of Plenty, Bay of Islands etc. Sydney harbour as a marine precinct is a joke compared to what's available in NZ. The Broadwater on the Gold coast - another joke.

Access to the sea is fucking difficult for everyone on the east coast outside of Sydney - I know, you have to cross really fucking dangerous bars exposed to ocean swell. Very few of these bars are dredged either. My local one at Brunswick Heads and Ballina hasn't seen a dredge in over 40 years. After the bar gets over 2.5m you're not insured. It aint pleasant crossing them, and I've done it a lot. Every time you go you're putting your life and rig at risk. Plenty opt out and just stick to what is mainstream marine culture in Aussie - the Tinny. Shitty little metal boats that buzz around on rivers and estuaries. Boat ownership in Aussie is low compared to NZ because of the aforementioned reasons. Sailing dinghy fleets are nowhere near the size or variety seen in NZ. Yes there is some nice water up north inside the reef - but it's ridiculously hot, has cyclones and the people are quite mad. Aussie does really well to produce sailors like Slingers and Ashby, but the sailing culture is just not there. They don't have nearly the depth that NZ has in all aspects of recreational marine culture.

I say this as someone who grew up on the Hauraki gulf, then spent 30+ years in Aussie.

i'd say that we definitely have the depth

looking at all the other teams like oracle, Artemis and Softbank, we would definitely have the depth, a team is about 100 people, it's just that they are committed with other teams and there is no money in Australia ready to pay them to come back. As for the sailing team, probably a third of the entire AC50 sailing team across all teams last cycle were Aussies. trust me, there is no problem with finding competent Aussies for a campaign, it's paying them.

as for locations, i have heard that these new boats will be made for rougher sea state, plenty of places in Perth for that. consistent freo doctor, they could alternate between freo and moving down south to koombana bay where there is beautiful flat water with solid wind.

Nothing about the geography or the talent in Australia is letting us down, it's the big boys at the top of the corporate ladder who don't like wasting their money on the AC that limit us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, inebriated said:

i'd say that we definitely have the depth

looking at all the other teams like oracle, Artemis and Softbank, we would definitely have the depth, a team is about 100 people, it's just that they are committed with other teams and there is no money in Australia ready to pay them to come back. As for the sailing team, probably a third of the entire AC50 sailing team across all teams last cycle were Aussies. trust me, there is no problem with finding competent Aussies for a campaign, it's paying them.

as for locations, i have heard that these new boats will be made for rougher sea state, plenty of places in Perth for that. consistent freo doctor, they could alternate between freo and moving down south to koombana bay where there is beautiful flat water with solid wind.

Nothing about the geography or the talent in Australia is letting us down, it's the big boys at the top of the corporate ladder who don't like wasting their money on the AC that limit us.

Recent history suggests you don't. Apart from 83 and may be Bertrand's campaign in San Diego the Aussie cup efforts have been laughable. And the wheels fell off Bertrands effort as we all know. I'm not saying there aren't talented Aussies about. But getting them all together is half the trick, and Aussie has shown no capability at doing that. Aussie has way more Billionaires than NZ, yet as Bertrand says they have no stomach for it. Why not? Because they don't think you can win it - end of story. They are saying  effectively that they don't have the sailing culture. Your sailing culture is fragmented and too thin for the required focus that's required to win the cup. As for Perth as a training ground - seriously it's like 6 timezones away from the action - laughable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Horn Rock said:

Recent history suggests you don't. Apart from 83 and may be Bertrand's campaign in San Diego the Aussie cup efforts have been laughable. And the wheels fell off Bertrands effort as we all know. I'm not saying there aren't talented Aussies about. But getting them all together is half the trick, and Aussie has shown no capability at doing that. Aussie has way more Billionaires than NZ, yet as Bertrand says they have no stomach for it. Why not? Because they don't think you can win it - end of story. or because they don't want to waste their money in a pit. there is a reason why there is more billionaires than from new Zealand, because we are smarter and don't make mistakes like investing in the Americas Cup. You should ask Larry Ellison his return from however many AC's he has done, i would say that it is well in the red 

They are saying  effectively that they don't have the sailing culture. Your sailing culture is fragmented and too thin for the required focus that's required to win the cup. As for Perth as a training ground - seriously it's like 6 timezones away from the action - laughable. please, elaborate how many timezones away that new Zealand is away from Bermuda... ah

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, inebriated said:

or because they don't want to waste their money in a pit. there is a reason why there is more billionaires than from new Zealand, because we are smarter and don't make mistakes like investing in the Americas Cup. You should ask Larry Ellison his return from however many AC's he has done, i would say that it is well in the red 

Why are you here then? Why was Slingers trying to scratch up the readies? If you're so fucking smart why can't you win a sail boat race? You can come up with all the excuses in the world, but at the end of the day Aussie doesn't have the balls to spend the required amount to have a decent go at it. It's a fear of losing. It's a prestige event and you guys just don't have what it takes to play with the best in the world, and the fear of being also rans scares the bejesus out of you. So yeah, be content to watch from the sidelines and let the real sailors do their thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Horn Rock said:

Why are you here then? Why was Slingers trying to scratch up the readies? If you're so fucking smart why can't you win a sail boat race? You can come up with all the excuses in the world, but at the end of the day Aussie doesn't have the balls to spend the required amount to have a decent go at it. It's a fear of losing. It's a prestige event and you guys just don't have what it takes to play with the best in the world, and the fear of being also rans scares the bejesus out of you. So yeah, be content to watch from the sidelines and let the real sailors do their thing.

jeez mate

we aren't there because the people with the money don't want to be there

i sure do want them to get into it, but they do not and that is out of my control

we do have what it takes to play with the best in the world, we fucking are the best in the world

look at any team

before the LV cup was done we already knew that an Australian skipper would lift the cup

but big whoop these days

nothing has changed i geuss

Australia doesn't not have the balls, the .1% dont and it is for good eason

they didn't get to where they are by making stupid decisions with their money

the real sailors are from here, stop kidding yourself mate

and every time that you've won the cup it has been because the yanks pulled a piss poor effort

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You say you want to be in it, but think it stupid to spend the money? Doesn't make sense. The Cup has never been cheap - that's the reality of the event. I actually don't care if no ones turns up for the next event, we just get to hold it longer. As for Aussie sailors being the best in the world. I utterly dispute this. You don't have anywhere near NZ's record in the Whitbread, Fastnet, or the AC. Fuck we've won your own event the Hobart numerous times. Does any Aussie sailor have Blakes record? Or Coutts? Butterworth? Dalton? nah, not even close. These guys are house hold names in NZ and the world sailing fraternity. You don't have that sort of pedigree. You don't have the same pedigree in designers and builders either. Bruce Farr, Southern Spars, Cooksons, I could go on, but it's no contest. NZ has been very competitive in every AC they've been in. Can't say the same for Aussie - most of your efforts have been embarrassing. If you were that good you'd be there, but you're not. That says it all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Horn Rock said:

You say you want to be in it, but think it stupid to spend the money? Doesn't make sense. The Cup has never been cheap - that's the reality of the event. I actually don't care if no ones turns up for the next event, we just get to hold it longer. As for Aussie sailors being the best in the world. I utterly dispute this. You don't have anywhere near NZ's record in the Whitbread, Fastnet, or the AC. Fuck we've won your own event the Hobart numerous times. Does any Aussie sailor have Blakes record? Or Coutts? Butterworth? Dalton? nah, not even close. These guys are house hold names in NZ and the world sailing fraternity. You don't have that sort of pedigree. You don't have the same pedigree in designers and builders either. Bruce Farr, Southern Spars, Cooksons, I could go on, but it's no contest. NZ has been very competitive in every AC they've been in. Can't say the same for Aussie - most of your efforts have been embarrassing. If you were that good you'd be there, but you're not. That says it all.

theirs a difference between me and the people with enough money to play with these boats

sure, i want them to waste their money on the Americas Cup, it gives me something to support and watch, i don't give a fuck if the billionaires of AUS loose 200 mill.

but they sure do.

And i can't do shit to convince them.

Also, if New Zealand are so good at sailing,

why the fuck did they need an aussie to skipper their boat.

You think you know Australian culture and what happens down here, what the fuck were you doing for "30+ years",

living under a fucking rock?!

i can't be fucked with this any more

enjoy it

or maybe just in tassie.

Actually, you're probably 32 years old and have lived in NZ all your life, but you're a smart man and realise that it's just a part of Australia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

You say you want to be in it, but think it stupid to spend the money? Doesn't make sense. The Cup has never been cheap - that's the reality of the event. I actually don't care if no ones turns up for the next event, we just get to hold it longer. As for Aussie sailors being the best in the world. I utterly dispute this. You don't have anywhere near NZ's record in the Whitbread, Fastnet, or the AC. Fuck we've won your own event the Hobart numerous times. Does any Aussie sailor have Blakes record? Or Coutts? Butterworth? Dalton? nah, not even close. These guys are house hold names in NZ and the world sailing fraternity. You don't have that sort of pedigree. You don't have the same pedigree in designers and builders either. Bruce Farr, Southern Spars, Cooksons, I could go on, but it's no contest. NZ has been very competitive in every AC they've been in. Can't say the same for Aussie - most of your efforts have been embarrassing. If you were that good you'd be there, but you're not. That says it all.

I'd encourage you to use Iggy like everyone else ;-) save yourself the trouble

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^ Actually Australia is just another state of America.

That is why Australia does not compete in the AC they already are part of their team.

NZ will never join that.  At less we have independent ideas and voice and implement them.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, inebriated said:

Also, if New Zealand are so good at sailing,

why the fuck did they need an aussie to skipper their boat.

Because we're smart and not slaves to our egos. We knew we needed a world class multi sailor and sort out one. Listening to Ashby now, he loves NZ and recognises the  pedigree and has added to it. Good for us and him. No surprise he's signed on again.

 

7 hours ago, inebriated said:

You think you know Australian culture and what happens down here, what the fuck were you doing for "30+ years",

living under a fucking rock?!

I'm more of a fisho than a sailor, and have made no claims of my personal sailing expertise. I grew up sailing P's, Starlings, and Lasers - watched Chris Dickson as a youngster absolutely ripping it in a P class at Big Manly (NZ) and knew I didn't have the talent to compete. You had to be shit hot to make the NZ Nationals in any of the dinghy classes. I've crewed keel boats on Sydney harbour and found it to be pretty ho-hum to be honest. Was also pulling in boat loads of snapper at Horn rock in the gulf when very few boats were out there in those days. Was one of the first guys to kayak fish off Byron bay - going miles off shore and bringing back decent sized yellow fin tuna, to jaw dropping looks by the hordes on main beach. Anyway, my Bros just picked up a 3.7 (beautiful boat) and I'm looking forward to spilling out in that. You've got to be pretty good to just get that thing around the track without ending up in the drink. So my marine activities are variable like a lot of Kiwis. 

7 hours ago, inebriated said:

i can't be fucked with this any more

You're another arm chair Aussie with a big mouth whose more than likely done sweet fuck all on the ocean or the land, except drink and talk trash. I live here (Aussie) and see it all the time. Guys that literally shit their pants when I've taken them across the bars. Guys that puke everywhere sitting in the rolling swell - no fucking sea legs. Guys that haven't got a fucking clue when on a boat and squeal like a girl when I bark a few orders at them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LRs demands drove the boat change but a probable bonus for GD was the knowledge that a new boat would more than likely kill any chance of an Australian Challenge. That means a legit Challenge to take the Cup from ETNZ is eliminated before AC36 starts. Win/Win. 

Uncle Larry should fund an Aussie Challenge.  Would stick it to GD if they win and Uncle Larry can pay back his Aussie sailing team for winning the Cup for him. ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Whilst there are some good individual sailors in Aussie they don't have the sailing culture NZ has - nowhere near it. 

Maybe up in lay back Byron Bay you might be right, but I think you will find that overall, a higher percentage of Australians sail more often than NZers. It's always hard to compare figures across countries because of a lack of universal data sets, but the data i have seen suggests participation in Australia is very good compared with most countries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, WetHog said:

On the flip side, LRs demands drove the boat change but a probable bonus for GD was the knowledge that a new boat would more than likely kill any chance of an Australian Challenge. That means a legit Challenge to take the Cup from ETNZ is eliminated before AC36 starts. Win/Win. 

Uncle Larry should fund an Aussie Challenge.  Would stick it to GD if they win and Uncle Larry can pay back his Aussie sailing team for winning the Cup for him. ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

Lazza's only won it when he's been able to dictate the terms of the event. He's not stupid, he'll sit out the next one, see what talent emerges, then see who he can pick off to hit the ground running. He doesn't like starting with a blank canvas, he couldn't give a fuck about fostering local talent, he's a win at all costs kinda bloke. I couldn't give a rats if we never saw his slimey arse in the cup ever again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

Lazza's only won it when he's been able to dictate the terms of the event. He's not stupid, he'll sit out the next one, see what talent emerges, then see who he can pick off to hit the ground running. He doesn't like starting with a blank canvas, he couldn't give a fuck about fostering local talent, he's a win at all costs kinda bloke. I couldn't give a rats if we never saw his slimey arse in the cup ever again.

AC33 wasn’t on his terms exactly.  It was on the Deeds terms. 

I don’t care if Uncle Larry participates in the AC again.  He lost me when he defended in Bermuda.  But if he funded an Aussie Challenge just to stick it to GD and the Poodles that would be some fund drama.

WetHog  :ph34r:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, A Class Sailor said:

Maybe up in lay back Byron Bay you might be right, but I think you will find that overall, a higher percentage of Australians sail more often than NZers. It's always hard to compare figures across countries because of a lack of universal data sets, but the data i have seen suggests participation in Australia is very good compared with most countries.

Fuck all sailing in Byron bay - in fact none whatsoever. Launching dinghies into the surf is not feasible. Actually come to think of it, you do see kite sailors and that kind of thing. The only sailing around here is in Ballina on the river - and to be honest it's a bit of a joke. No fault of anyone, but sailing back and forth on a narrow river is just not that compelling. I have no idea of the other numbers - just a feel for what it might be from my own observations. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, WetHog said:

AC33 wasn’t on his terms exactly.  It was on the Deeds terms. 

Yeah but he got it changed from a boat he wasn't having any success with - the IAAC's. He maximised  his chance of success by being the only other boat and totally out spent the other bloke. On a level playing field he's been found wanting and knows it. As for funding an Aussie challenge - can't see it happening. He's paid his Aussies well and doesn't feel he owes them anything. Lazza is many things, but not sentimental.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a  juvinile argument.

AUS won in 83 on borrowed money which was never repaid. Bond ended up in jail for fraud. No one wants to be tarred with that brush.

TNZ was funded by Italians for last two cup cycles.

In both Aust and NZ, business people are all shy of spending on this game, and the tax system is not sympathetic. The various Govts in NZ can not agree on the venue, let alone how much they will spend on it.

With the world economy about to go insane again, there is a very high chance this will be a two boat event run in Italy. If thats the case it may be the last AC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, WetHog said:

AC33 wasn’t on his terms exactly.  It was on the Deeds terms. 

I don’t care if Uncle Larry participates in the AC again.  He lost me when he defended in Bermuda.  But if he funded an Aussie Challenge just to stick it to GD and the Poodles that would be some fund drama.

WetHog  :ph34r:

oracle team AUS hahaha

that'd be hilarious

and the kiwi's couldn't complain because their name is just as contradicting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Phil S said:

What a  juvinile argument.

Juvenile is not being able to spell juvenile.

1 hour ago, Phil S said:

No one wants to be tarred with that brush.

I don't think too many are thinking about Bondy these days - he's dead. Yes he was dodgy, but so is much of Corporate Australia. MacQuarie Bank, James Hardie, Holmes a Court, Billabong, Oroton, plus heaps of others. 

1 hour ago, Phil S said:

TNZ was funded by Italians for last two cup cycles.

I have no issue with that whatsoever. Good on Dalts for securing funding.

 

1 hour ago, Phil S said:

there is a very high chance this will be a two boat event run in Italy.

Fat chance and wishful thinking. What we do know is that Aussie won't be in the next cup, and little likely hood of them being in any future cups. So as for Aussie sailors, they'll have to continue to ply their trade overseas and good luck to them. What I won't countenance is a prick like Slingsby slagging off NZ saying we fucked their chances of a bid - he can go fuck himself biggly.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

 What I won't countenance is a prick like Slingsby slagging off NZ saying we fucked their chances of a bid - he can go fuck himself biggly.

 

 

 

You can understand some bad feeling about the way things have turned out for AC36.

Remember that if anyone but ETNZ had won AC35 then they would have a circuit using first the AC45Fs and then the AC50s. The first regattas were due late 2017 or early 2018. Instead we have these crazy new boats, hardly any teams, and no racing until the second half of 2019.

 Not exactly a good outcome for most of the sailors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Fireball said:

The first regattas were due late 2017 or early 2018. Instead we have these crazy new boats, hardly any teams, and no racing until the second half of 2019.

 Not exactly a good outcome for most of the sailors.

So regular AC then... Plenty of beach regattas and the like for sailors...

The only reason why there is so much money in AC is the prestige that was being diluted day by day by the London agreement... The end game was less income for the sailors eventually as it crept towards banality

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Fireball said:

You can understand some bad feeling about the way things have turned out for AC36.

Nah no bad feelings mate ETNZ put the attempted assassination of the team and it's principal members, the arrogant sledging by JS, and the likes of flaggate all behind them...

Unless there is some other team you feel was aggrieved by a fair victory from an underdog that had been kicked every step of the way for petty spite? 

OTUSA have publicly stated they have no grievance - so who are you referring to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Nah no bad feelings mate

The bad feeling is growing, even within teams who will turn up. There was and still is great expectation regarding the way ETNZ behaves as defender. While they didn't sign up for the London Agreement, everybody thought that as Grant Dalton has spent the best part of the last 10 years saying costs need to be brought under control, their choices for the next edition would address that issue. Dalton has previously been vocal about the defender gaining an advantage through writing the rule and supported Ellison when they both attacked Alinghi for being able to do development work on their design before the others because of how they were writing the rule.

I think those involved with the AC and who want to get a team together have every right to be, at very least, disappointed that the type of boat and the protocol have made no attempt to reign in costs while most would say this will be the most expensive edition ever. ETNZ are writing the rule and have admitted to having a team of designers working on it for 5-6 months, giving them a huge head start unless they intend to share all the data they have produced.Even on the rig, the recently released video said they had 6 people working on the concept for 5-6 months and they also said that the development others would do will push the technology forward, clearly indicating it won't be a one design element. How can other teams catch up that sort of lead? spending loads of money will help, but you can never get back time. Even the nationality rule favours ETNZ over every other team because it is so much easier for them to qualify an overseas sailor, such as Glenn Ashby who can spend half the year in NZ at the regatta venue and half at home. The foreign sailors for the other teams won't be able to go home because they will need to spend half the year in NZ and half in their adopted country (unless they happen to be NZ). If you are anything other than a NZer or sail for ETNZ or a national of the team you sail for, you cannot go home for a number of years. It effectively freezes out many of the top sailors.

So when somebody gets a bit pissed at ETNZ and Grant Dalton in particular, it is totally understandable. It's a case of deja vu all over again. Ellison was going to be the white knight who saved the cup from the evil Bertarelli and was going to make it fair and good again. We know what happened there. Then Dalton was put forward as the man to save the cup and make it fair again. While he isn't doing anything against the Deed of Gift and has the right to do what he is doing and setting up the cup as he sees fit, the signs do not look good. I will go as far as to say i predict an ETNZ win, because they have such a head start.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 23/02/2018 at 7:30 PM, Fireball said:

There is one point we should all be able to agree on: the change of boat away from the AC50s was at the cost of another potential entry (Australia). Add this to the other teams like Artemis and SoftBank (and maybe Team France).

Whether there are enough new entries to make up for this remains to be seen, but it's not looking good at the moment.

Moving away from the AC50s was the right thing to do IMO. Unfortunately I think moving to the AC75s was the wrong thing to do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, rh2600 said:

Nah no bad feelings mate ETNZ put the attempted assassination of the team and it's principal members, the arrogant sledging by JS, and the likes of flaggate all behind them...

Unless there is some other team you feel was aggrieved by a fair victory from an underdog that had been kicked every step of the way for petty spite? 

OTUSA have publicly stated they have no grievance - so who are you referring to?

^ Exactly - the only people with a grievance are a few whingeing ETNZ fans who can’t even seem to enjoy their team’s  victory in Bermuda. Omg did JS talk some smack? Were flags messed with? I have to say I missed the ‘assassination attempt’ - are there pics?

lol 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ Exactly - the only people with a grievance are a few whingeing ETNZ fans who can’t even seem to enjoy their team’s  victory in Bermuda. Omg did JS talk some smack? Were flags messed with? I have to say I missed the ‘assassination attempt’ - are there pics?

lol 

 

So is Fireball wrong or right then?

1. JS was/is a dick.  But he got his beans, so no grievance here no more.

2. Flag-gate was laughably petty, but really did show how much ETNZ got under the skin of OTUSA. 

IMG_7308xx.jpg

In any event it turned out for the best! That's Slingers behind the camera eh? 

thanks.thumb.jpg.e407bbc2a464d2b9f7c36cc3a6259112.jpg.cd4bc6c30ca1b1a2c96eeead61abc5ea.jpg

3. Assassination was RC/LE/ACEA/OTUSA attempt to cut ETNZ's revenue sources to the point they would cease to exist. Also gagging GD whilst taking shots on FB about foil breakages and making in-accurate statements about ETNZ's position on AC rules knowing that they couldn't respond. But I suspect this is all a bit to sophisticated and nuanced for you mate...

Bermuda victory mate? It was fucking awesome! Greatest comeback in AC history dontchaknow!

The only thing laughable is your absurd naivety that there can't be any bad blood in international sport - what fairyland do you live in?

lol / hahaha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Do you actually know any of the people involved? Seems like the only person who cares about all this either made-up or trivial crap is you.

Just sayin’.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ Do you actually know any of the people involved? Seems like the only person who cares about all this either made-up or trivial crap is you.

Just sayin’.

 

yeah thought so...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ So the answer is ‘no’, then. You should probably factor that in when your sharing your opinions on how the various teams interact.

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, surfsailor said:

^ So the answer is ‘no’, then. You should probably factor that in when your sharing your opinions on how the various teams interact.

:)

who I know would make no difference to your trolling, I note you still haven't said whether Fireball had it wrong on not... you just want a scrap...

but yeah the RC posts on his page are fake, the cancellation of Auckland ACWS was fake, as was the settlement.

JS had an impersonator at the pressos, and that photo of the flag dump is fake too...

GD is a fake and the interviews with him and RC are fake in terms of their relationship...

But you know a guy who coloured a gelcoat used on slingers sisters SUP so font of knowledge you are...

Igging again... just such bizarre attempt to entangle people... its really genuinely odd...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Fireball said:

You can understand some bad feeling about the way things have turned out for AC36.

Remember that if anyone but ETNZ had won AC35 then they would have a circuit using first the AC45Fs and then the AC50s. The first regattas were due late 2017 or early 2018. Instead we have these crazy new boats, hardly any teams, and no racing until the second half of 2019.

 Not exactly a good outcome for most of the sailors.

In hind-site the London agreement is looking like an arrogant document, considering they didn't sign up a major AC player who then went on to win it, then promptly dump it. Thems the breaks I guess. Slingers was one of the guys that wrote the rule for AC35, so seeing all his work trashed must be quite a personal disappointment. All the other guys who thought they had on-going employment must be similarly miffed. Tough....The AC has never been about providing job security for sailors, and never been about circuit racing. Like I said earlier, I don't care if no one turns up and I really don't care how high NZ set the bar.

Some people argue that the AC should be a great sporting event that the public enjoys, generates a return for investors, blah, blah,blah. Not me, to me it's a dirty bitch fight between teams that loath, and want to kill each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, WetHog said:

LRs demands drove the boat change but a probable bonus for GD was the knowledge that a new boat would more than likely kill any chance of an Australian Challenge. That means a legit Challenge to take the Cup from ETNZ is eliminated before AC36 starts. Win/Win. 

Uncle Larry should fund an Aussie Challenge.  Would stick it to GD if they win and Uncle Larry can pay back his Aussie sailing team for winning the Cup for him. ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

This says more about you than anyone else WH.

GD would welcome a couple of teams from Oz, if only they would pull finger

And as for the leader of team cheat, rule manipulator, race official owning, poodle herder Larry riding to the rescue of Ozzie honour and those 'unfairly suppressed' by your made-up bullshit against GD, who is simply getting on with organising AC36..........:lol::lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, WetHog said:

LRs demands drove the boat change but a probable bonus for GD was the knowledge that a new boat would more than likely kill any chance of an Australian Challenge. That means a legit Challenge to take the Cup from ETNZ is eliminated before AC36 starts. Win/Win. 

Uncle Larry should fund an Aussie Challenge.  Would stick it to GD if they win and Uncle Larry can pay back his Aussie sailing team for winning the Cup for him. ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

This says more about you than anyone else WH.

GD would welcome a couple of teams from Oz, if only they would pull finger

And as for the leader of team cheat, rule manipulator, race official owning, poodle herder Larry riding to the rescue of Ozzie honour and those 'unfairly suppressed' by your made-up bullshit against GD, who is simply getting on with organising AC36..........:lol::lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, WetHog said:

LRs demands drove the boat change but a probable bonus for GD was the knowledge that a new boat would more than likely kill any chance of an Australian Challenge. That means a legit Challenge to take the Cup from ETNZ is eliminated before AC36 starts. Win/Win. 

Uncle Larry should fund an Aussie Challenge.  Would stick it to GD if they win and Uncle Larry can pay back his Aussie sailing team for winning the Cup for him. ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

This says more about you than anyone else WH.

GD would no doubt welcome a team team two from Oz, if only they would pull finger

And as for the leader of team cheat, rule manipulator, race official owning, poodle herder Larry riding to the rescue of Ozzie honour and those 'unfairly suppressed' by your made-up bullshit against GD, who is simply getting on with organising AC36..........:lol::lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, rh2600 said:

who I know would make no difference to your trolling, I note you still haven't said whether Fireball had it wrong on not... you just want a scrap...

but yeah the RC posts on his page are fake, the cancellation of Auckland ACWS was fake, as was the settlement.

JS had an impersonator at the pressos, and that photo of the flag dump is fake too...

GD is a fake and the interviews with him and RC are fake in terms of their relationship...

But you know a guy who coloured a gelcoat used on slingers sisters SUP so font of knowledge you are...

Igging again... just such bizarre attempt to entangle people... its really genuinely odd...

I just think flinging poo at people you don’t know is a bad look. Sailing is a relatively small world.

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Juvenile is not being able to spell juvenile.

I don't think too many are thinking about Bondy these days - he's dead. Yes he was dodgy, but so is much of Corporate Australia. MacQuarie Bank, James Hardie, Holmes a Court, Billabong, Oroton, plus heaps of others. 

I have no issue with that whatsoever. Good on Dalts for securing funding.

 

Fat chance and wishful thinking. What we do know is that Aussie won't be in the next cup, and little likely hood of them being in any future cups. So as for Aussie sailors, they'll have to continue to ply their trade overseas and good luck to them. What I won't countenance is a prick like Slingsby slagging off NZ saying we fucked their chances of a bid - he can go fuck himself biggly.

 

 

 

Where did Slingsby say that?

 

edit...Oh, someone says Slingsby said it, that Slingsby thought he could challenge for a bit over $50 million. Yeah, right.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a funny old forum when most of the posts are discussing teams that are in the past tense or never were. This and the Oracle thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, nav said:

This says more about you than anyone else WH.

GD would no doubt welcome a team team two from Oz, if only they would pull finger

And as for the leader of team cheat, rule manipulator, race official owning, poodle herder Larry riding to the rescue of Ozzie honour and those 'unfairly suppressed' by your made-up bullshit against GD, who is simply getting on with organising AC36..........:lol::lol:

3rd time the charm?  :lol:

Never said GD was afraid of an Aussie challenge, just a probable bonus to a from scratch foiling monohull is pricing an Aussie challenge out of the Cup.  An Aussie challenge that would be considered legit competition to ETNZ if foiling cats were retained.  

And what I proposed Uncle Larry to do for the Aussies would be right in line with what Papa Poodle Bertelli did for ETNZ in AC35. 

Bullshit indeed.  :rolleyes:

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

It's a funny old forum when most of the posts are discussing teams that are in the past tense or never were. This and the Oracle thread.

Slow news cycle currently for the Cup as you well know.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, WetHog said:

3rd time the charm?  :lol:

Never said GD was afraid of an Aussie challenge, just a probable bonus to a from scratch foiling monohull is pricing an Aussie challenge out of the Cup.  An Aussie challenge that would be considered legit competition to ETNZ if foiling cats were retained.  

And what I proposed Uncle Larry to do for the Aussies would be right in line with what Papa Poodle Bertelli did for ETNZ in AC35. 

Bullshit indeed.  :rolleyes:

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

Seeing you are playing words to shift your argument, I'll help clarify.

Nav is saying that GD would "welcome" an AU challenge, you said GD would regard no AU challenge as a "bonus" - these two views are in opposition.

Now I know you can technically decide to welcome something you don't like, but the implications in this context are clear...

I agree with Nav that GD would welcome an AU (and frankly any challenge). Whether that includes alinghi or OTUSA depends on whether there is any bad blood between the teams - and this appears to wax and wane for some depending on what fits one's argument at the time on any given thread ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, rh2600 said:

Seeing you are playing words to shift your argument, I'll help clarify.

Nav is saying that GD would "welcome" an AU challenge, you said GD would regard no AU challenge as a "bonus" - these two views are in opposition.

Now I know you can technically decide to welcome something you don't like, but the implications in this context are clear...

I agree with Nav that GD would welcome an AU (and frankly any challenge). Whether that includes alinghi or OTUSA depends on whether there is any bad blood between the teams - and this appears to wax and wane for some depending on what fits one's argument at the time on any given thread ;-)

Considering my comment started this little conversation I'll refrain from giving two shits what you guys think I was implying.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, WetHog said:

3rd time the charm?  :lol:

Never said GD was afraid of an Aussie challenge, just a probable bonus to a from scratch foiling monohull is pricing an Aussie challenge out of the Cup.  An Aussie challenge that would be considered legit competition to ETNZ if foiling cats were retained.  

And what I proposed Uncle Larry to do for the Aussies would be right in line with what Papa Poodle Bertelli did for ETNZ in AC35. 

Bullshit indeed.  :rolleyes:

WetHog  :ph34r:

 

Also putting aside hearsay about what slingers may or may not have said (I note the original poster of that claim has failed to respond to requests for clarification that this is a public position that slingers will state openly) one could argue that the LA and continuation of AC50 created a cartel of sorts, and an existing body of IP for a class that would discourage potential new entrants from joining. Whereas a totally new class puts everyone back to square one (apart from evil ETNZ) and may result in new entrants - only time will tell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Considering my comment started this little conversation I'll refrain from giving two shits what you guys think I was implying.  :lol:

WetHog  :ph34r:  

With you mate, implications are all we got! :-D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, WetHog said:

Slow news cycle currently for the Cup as you well know.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r:

Oh I know. But even so, the spiral of this forum up its own fundament seems ever-accelerating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

..Dalton has previously been vocal about the defender gaining an advantage through writing the rule and supported Ellison when they both attacked Alinghi for being able to do development work on their design before the others because of how they were writing the rule.

I wouldn't use Alinghi as a "shining" example of integrity. Bertarelli announced even before the final race in AC32 that CNEV was going to be the CoR, which he promptly confirmed with the formal acceptance of CNEV's Challlenge after winning the final race  - and then issued the AC33 Protocol one day later!! A Protocol he tried to con everyone into believing as having been "negotiated" with the new CoR!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Indio said:

I wouldn't use Alinghi as a "shining" example of integrity. Bertarelli announced even before the final race in AC32 that CNEV was going to be the CoR, which he promptly confirmed with the formal acceptance of CNEV's Challlenge after winning the final race  - and then issued the AC33 Protocol one day later!! A Protocol he tried to con everyone into believing as having been "negotiated" with the new CoR!!

Thank you for agreeing. If Alinghi aren't a shining example of integrity and ETNZ are doing the same thing, what does that make ETNZ? Alinghi were accused of taking advantage of their design team writing a new rule to gain a huge advantage. ETNZ are doing the same thing. Why was it bad for Alinghi to do it but good for ETNZ to be doing the same thing? Because the type of boat is so different to anything seen before, the advantage gained by ETNZ will be significantly bigger than any Alinghi would have gained. ETNZ even admits they have had a significant number of people working on it. How do they know it will be faster in certain conditions? Because they have been modelling it. How do they know the wing soft sail works, if they choose it? Because they have had 5-6 people working on it for 6 months (their words).

Every other defender who has instigated a new rule for a whole new type of boat has done it by commissioning a truly independent design team to look at it, other than the aborted, much criticised effort to gain an advantage by Alinghi. This is the first time a defender has developed, tested and written a whole new rule themselves. If you cannot see that gives ETNZ a very big advantage, you must be blind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

…you must be blind.

No, just one–eyed. ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

Thank you for agreeing. If Alinghi aren't a shining example of integrity and ETNZ are doing the same thing, what does that make ETNZ? Alinghi were accused of taking advantage of their design team writing a new rule to gain a huge advantage. ETNZ are doing the same thing. Why was it bad for Alinghi to do it but good for ETNZ to be doing the same thing? Because the type of boat is so different to anything seen before, the advantage gained by ETNZ will be significantly bigger than any Alinghi would have gained. ETNZ even admits they have had a significant number of people working on it. How do they know it will be faster in certain conditions? Because they have been modelling it. How do they know the wing soft sail works, if they choose it? Because they have had 5-6 people working on it for 6 months (their words).

Every other defender who has instigated a new rule for a whole new type of boat has done it by commissioning a truly independent design team to look at it, other than the aborted, much criticised effort to gain an advantage by Alinghi. This is the first time a defender has developed, tested and written a whole new rule themselves. If you cannot see that gives ETNZ a very big advantage, you must be blind.

Don't be such a fucking moron! ETNZ and the CoR collaborated to write the AC36 Protocol which they released in September 2017, 3 months after the final race of AC35. Alinghi had already written the AC33 Protocol when they announced CNEV as the CoR, and then released it 2 days later. How are the two comparable??

On 2nd July, 2007 Alinghi announced that CNEV was going to be the COR - before winning!! This in itself was not legal under the Deed.

On 3rd July, 2007 Alinghi duly won the final race - and then formally accepted the CNEV Challenge which they'd already illegally accepted on 2nd July.

On the 5th July, 2007 Alinghi released the 25-page AC33 Protocol: so how the fuck is this anywhere comparable to the ETNZ-LR AC36 Protocol??

You are SimonN - 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Indio said:

Don't be such a fucking moron! ETNZ and the CoR collaborated to write the AC36 Protocol which they released in September 2017, 3 months after the final race of AC35. Alinghi had already written the AC33 Protocol when they announced CNEV as the CoR, and then released it 2 days later. How are the two comparable??

On 2nd July, 2007 Alinghi announced that CNEV was going to be the COR - before winning!! This in itself was not legal under the Deed.

On 3rd July, 2007 Alinghi duly won the final race - and then formally accepted the CNEV Challenge which they'd already illegally accepted on 2nd July.

On the 5th July, 2007 Alinghi released the 25-page AC33 Protocol: so how the fuck is this anywhere comparable to the ETNZ-LR AC36 Protocol??

You are SimonN - 

 

Try learning to read. I am not discussing the protocol. I am discussing the class rule and Alinghi did not release the class rule with the protocol. I am not sure how you get the 2 muddled. How about you stick to what was being discussed, or is this a poor attempt to deflect attention away from the fact that ETNZ is giving itself the biggest design lead over the challengers that has ever happened in the history of the AC. How is it fair to have a team of designers working on a whole new concept for over 6 months before the challengers can start work? No defender has ever done that before. It gives ETNZ the biggest head start ever seen and makes it very hard for any other team to catch up. I expected better from them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

This is the first time a defender has developed, tested and written a whole new rule themselves. If you cannot see that gives ETNZ a very big advantage, you must be blind.

LR are privy to most if not all the rule development work, so I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that only ETNZ have this info or the sole advantage. The rule has also been developed with proprietary software that only the aforementioned teams have. You also fail to take into account the tight time frame the ruler developers are constrained by. There would not have been time to put the rule development out to tender in a totally transparent process. There's also the question of whether any other design outfit could have come up with the concept that LR/ETNZ have come with, in such short order, and formulate the rule. ETNZ/LR are the current foiling leaders - no question. So yes, the current situation is not totally transparent, but it's the best solution to get a rule out there in a reasonable time, and even so, I think ETNZ, and everyone else are still going to right be on the edge in getting these boats on the water and doing what the animation suggests is possible with these boats.

So all in all I think your arguments (whinges) are totally spurious, but when it comes to Poms, you're known for it. British success in the AC has been pitifully absent for an incredibly long time, which grates a nation with such an extensive maritime heritage. You just haven't been good enough, and been shown up by the Americans, Aussies, Kiwis, and even a landlocked nation like Switzerland. You certainly don't deserve to have any say in it whatsoever, and your opinions on the matter can be safely dismissed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 01/03/2018 at 5:04 PM, Horn Rock said:

I don't think too many are thinking about Bondy these days - he's dead

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

LR are privy to most if not all the rule development work, so I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that only ETNZ have this info or the sole advantage. The rule has also been developed with proprietary software that only the aforementioned teams have. You also fail to take into account the tight time frame the ruler developers are constrained by. There would not have been time to put the rule development out to tender in a totally transparent process. There's also the question of whether any other design outfit could have come up with the concept that LR/ETNZ have come with, in such short order, and formulate the rule. ETNZ/LR are the current foiling leaders - no question. So yes, the current situation is not totally transparent, but it's the best solution to get a rule out there in a reasonable time, and even so, I think ETNZ, and everyone else are still going right to be on the edge in getting these boats on the water and doing what the animation suggests is possible with these boats.

So all in all I think your arguments (whinges) are totally spurious, but when it comes to Poms, you're known for it. British success in the AC has been pitifully absent for an incredibly long time, which grates a nation with such an extensive maritime heritage. You just haven't been good enough, and been shown up by the Americans, Aussies, Kiwis, and even a landlocked nation like Switzerland. You certainly don't deserve to have any say in it whatsoever, and your opinions on the matter can be safely dismissed.

You are the one pushing a spurious argument.

The real reason why your argument falls down is that in every other case when a defender has produced a new rule, they have either put it out to  3rd party or invited world class designers to be part of the team developing the rule. There are many ways they could have played fair but they have chosen to do it all on their own. Your comment about the proprietary software is key. The ETNZ software would not have been capable of handling this radical new boat and would have needed to be rewritten. The sims software needed to be completely reconfigured This alone is where they have gained the big lead. 

There is also no evidence that LR is involved with the rule development.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indio

One thing i didn't consider in replying to you is the fact that LR and ETNZ agreed in 2015 to return to monohulls and it was a condition of Bertelli providing so much to ETNZ As I know you like to dispute this, here is a quote from Yachting World

Quote

At the press conference, streamed over Facebook Live, Patrizio Bertelli explained that he had helped Emirates Team New Zealand during the last Cup cycle, confirming the widely held belief that there had been a pact to return to a monohull should the Kiwis win. In 2015, he had handed over Luna Rossa designers, sailors including skipper Max Sirena, a test boat after and a rumoured $30 million when he pulled out in protest at the change to the AC50 class.
Read more at http://www.yachtingworld.com/americas-cup/110264-110264#ERVU2bS3CBUCpdx7.99

What makes this really damning is that subsequent to that agreement, Dalton was still making comments about how it would be hard to go away from multis and even after ETNZ won the cup, he was saying that all options including multis were still on the table and he would consult with all potential challengers. that was a straight out lie.

What has happened yet again is a big change in attitude and behaviour as soon as the new defender gets its hands on "The Precious". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

The real reason why your argument falls down is that in every other case when a defender has produced a new rule, they have either put it out to  3rd party or invited world class designers to be part of the team developing the rule.

Absolute rubbish. Your suggestion there is precedence in AC rule development is complete and utter bollocks. You failed to counter the time constraints at all, which in a practical sense is absolutely paramount.

 

17 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

The ETNZ software would not have been capable of handling this radical new boat and would have needed to be rewritten. The sims software needed to be completely reconfigured 

You have no idea, nor anyone else what re-writes if any have been made to ETNZ's software, but what we do know is that no one else has the same capability. Any independent design consortium would be virtually starting from scratch - totally impractical.

 

17 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

There is also no evidence that LR is involved with the rule development.

There is no evidence they're not.

You really have nothing GBR, but continue to slur ETNZ and insinuate that they're stacking all the cards in their favour, which ETNZ have absolutely no history of doing. Like I said earlier, and reiterate - your opinions can be safely dismissed.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yep.

Talks a lot - and 99% of it is uninformed anti-kiwi conspiracy as above

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Oh I know. But even so, the spiral of this forum up its own fundament seems ever-accelerating.

Its driven by chest thumping buy some fans of a specific team.  I thought that would of worn off by now, and humility take hold, but this might be the new normal around here.  At least for this cycle.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^

Yes. Another one of those went onto iggy this morning. He can wave his willy around if he likes but we don't have to pay him the attention he apparently craves.

There are plenty of Kiwis who manage to support their team without being dicks. But the minority certainly make a lot of noise.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, WetHog said:

Its driven by chest thumping buy some fans of a specific team.  I thought that would of worn off by now, and humility take hold, but this might be the new normal around here.  At least for this cycle.

WetHog  :ph34r:

Hoggie, which team do you support? Are you a dyed-in-the-wool OTUSA fan, or is it more of a general US thing (ie in this case NYYC)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites