Jim M

What Does Gun Violence Really Cost?

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7 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

FIFY

He would be alive if the gun wasn't riding with him.  Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.  This is not the wild west.  And you are not the fastest draw.  Go shoot rabbits but keep the fu guns off of the streets.

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8 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

But I'm not wrong, am I?  You don't give two fucks about people who commit self-murder as long as they don't do it with a gun.  

You are wrong, quite wrong,  but we're used to it.

Guns are exposed two ways here. Because they facilitate suicide from our homes, and because then they enable statistically effective suicide efforts.

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3 hours ago, jocal505 said:

You are wrong, quite wrong,  but we're used to it.

I can't find your posts where you discuss murder or suicides that were not committed with firearms.

Kinda like they don't matter.

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19 hours ago, Fakenews said:

reasonable people cite a rapidly aging population as the principal reason for the decline in all types of criminal violence.

 

10 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Has the number of shootings increased or decreased?


Bull Gator is right that age has a lot to do with violence. Young men are violent creatures.

But most gun violence takes the form of self-murder, so it's more appropriate to answer CLEAN's question (not that he reads answers) in this thread.

Because of population growth, I would guess that the absolute number of shootings has increased since a growing population with the same rate of suicide will show increasing numbers.

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56 minutes ago, Importunate Tom said:

 


Bull Gator is right that age has a lot to do with violence. Young men are violent creatures.

But most gun violence takes the form of self-murder, so it's more appropriate to answer CLEAN's question (not that he reads answers) in this thread.

Because of population growth, I would guess that the absolute number of shootings has increased since a growing population with the same rate of suicide will show increasing numbers.

Suicide is certainly part of the problem. But myopic propaganda zoning into suicide paints an incomplete (and deceptive) picture. The increased gun violence reflects all across society.

Quote

GVA totals 2017, compared over four years.

  • Road Rage Up 250% in three years
  • Number of Injuries Up 29% over four years
  • Total gun incidents Up 18% over four years
  • Gun deaths (excluding 22,000 suicides/yr average) Up 23% in four years
  • Defensive Gun Uses Up 27% in four years
  • Officer involved, Suspect/shooter killed up 17% over four years
  • Accidental Shootings  Up 25% over four years
  • Number of Home Invasions Down 5% over four years
  • Number of Children (age 0-11) Injured  Up 19% over four years
  • Teens killed or injured (ages 12-17, not incl suicides) Up 38% over four years
  • Mass Shootings Up 26% over four years

 

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12 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Suicide is certainly part of the problem. But myopic propaganda zoning into suicide paints an incomplete (and deceptive) picture.

So you couldn't get traction on your suicide discussion, so it is time to go back to your 2+ year old cut-n-paste stats?

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12 hours ago, bpm57 said:

So you couldn't get traction on your suicide discussion, so it is time to go back to your 2+ year old cut-n-paste stats?

Geez, you and I already got into it over this.

FACT> The homicide rate had settled at 11,500 for eight or nine years...but spiked after 2015.

Quote

Gun-related deaths are on the rise in the U.S., bucking a decade-long decline, according to a new report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. During 2015-2016, the federal agency says there were 27,394 homicides involving firearms and another 44,955 gun suicides — the highest levels recorded since 2006-2007.

In 2015-2016, the latest year available, homicide was the 16th leading cause of death among U.S. adults and the third leading cause for children between the ages of 10 and 19, according to the report. Guns were used in 74 percent of all recorded homicides, and used in 87 percent of homicides involving youth.

(...) The report noted that the rates of firearm homicides varied drastically from city to city. The rate was the lowest in the Providence and Warwick, Rhode Island, area, which recorded a rate of 1.1 for every 100,000 people, and the highest in the New Orleans and Metairie, Louisiana, area, with a rate of 16.6 for every 100,000 people.

(...)  From 2006 to 2016, suicides by firearm increased 21 percent, after declining 7 percent from 1999 to 2006.

https://wdef.com/2018/11/09/gun-deaths-on-the-rise-after-years-of-decline-cdc-reports/

@Importunate Tom  At this point, you are wrong that violent crime is going down. Same source. THe violence comes from heavily populated areas.

Quote

Violent crime in the U.S. increased 3.8 percent in 2016, with data suggesting a “short-term increase concentrated particularly in the core cities of metropolitan areas,” the report said, citing FBI statistics. Violent crime rose 6.1 percent in cities with populations of 250,000 or more in 2016, while the increase was only 2.2 percent in suburban areas and 1.6 percent in nonmetropolitan counties.

 

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21 hours ago, Raz'r said:

So, you are still math challenged then? Real danger from tools in the house

But the Japanese are in far greater danger of killing themselves and almost none of them have guns.

18 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Among first world countries we're number one in per capita gun deaths by a wide margin, a factor of 4 over Finland. We are 1st in the world for guns per capita. We're 2nd in gun suicides after Greenland.

And we have a pretty normal suicide rate, as noted way upthread. The method used matters to grabbers because they want to pad statistics. Same reason the 10k who kill themselves each year by some other method are ignored.

 

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11 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Geez, you and I already got into it over this.

What, your inability to understand that numbers will go up or down?

11 hours ago, jocal505 said:

FACT> The homicide rate had settled at 11,500 for eight or nine years...but spiked after 2015.

Motor vehicle deaths have spiked the last few years, after being pretty flat for several years. Must be time to ban those, too.

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On 4/13/2019 at 10:32 AM, jocal505 said:

Guns are exposed two ways here. Because they facilitate suicide from our homes, and because then they enable statistically effective suicide efforts.

Speaking of facilitating statistically effective suicide,

New Jersey the Latest State to Allow Terminally Ill to Seek Aid in Dying
 

Quote

 

Today New Jersey joins California, Vermont, Oregon, Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Montana, Washington state, and Washington, D.C., in allowing residents with terminal illnesses to seek assistance from doctors in order to end their own lives on their own terms.

In March, lawmakers passed the Medical Aid in Dying for the Terminally Ill Act, and Democratic Gov. Phil Murphy signed it into law in April. It officially goes into effect today.

The law permits people who are diagnosed with less than six months to live to request medication from doctors to commit suicide. This isn't like picking up a prescription for antibiotics; there are a number of requirements to meet before a patient will actually receive the drugs. The patient needs request the medication twice (at least 15 days apart), once in writing, and have witnesses sign off on it (including one who is not a relative or entitled to any part of the patient's estate). The patient must be an adult, a resident of New Jersey, and a person determined capable of making such a decision. The patients must be able to administer the medication to themselves.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Repastinate Tom said:

Speaking of facilitating statistically effective suicide,

New Jersey the Latest State to Allow Terminally Ill to Seek Aid in Dying
 

 

I had two suicides by people close to my life.  One man was about to lose his second foot to diabetes.  He arranged it carefully.

The other young man whose brother I coached in soccer lost his first girlfriend.  I'd give anything to prevent that senseless death.

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20 hours ago, hasher said:

I had two suicides by people close to my life.  One man was about to lose his second foot to diabetes.  He arranged it carefully.

The other young man whose brother I coached in soccer lost his first girlfriend.  I'd give anything to prevent that senseless death.

Very sorry. Of course.

Did your young friend go to the pills? Or to hanging? If he had, the odds fall around 90% that it would all sort out, about the gf.

If the young man turned to a gun, the odds are 90% it would not sort out.

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6 hours ago, Navig8tor said:

2010_homicide_suicide_rates_high-income_countries.thumb.png.dbdb3c4bd8e7059304a10c5b3e98cfaa.png

 

With an average of 120 guns per 100 people in the USA,  yep I think I can see the problem here.

Graph courtesy of RCraig09 on Wikipedia.


I'm guessing the problem you see is the method people choose, not the suicides themselves? Because the USA has a pretty average suicide rate.

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6 minutes ago, Repastinate Tom said:


I'm guessing the problem you see is the method people choose, not the suicides themselves? Because the USA has a pretty average suicide rate.

You are a sick one. And you CHOOSE and peddle the illness, with smarminess, importunacy, comtumaity, and repastination.

But I digress. Obviously, if all these gunz were not in our homes, our averagesuicide rate could rest in peace, well below average.

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On 4/16/2015 at 9:52 AM, Repastinate Tom said:

Suicide-deaths-per-100000-trend.jpg

 

Must be the guns.

9 hours ago, Flatbag said:

When I think of the tragedy of 9/11 I still am amazed that so few actually died in that horrible atrocity; somewhere around 3000 souls. And yes, the death of 3000 souls in one event is appallingly tragic but then I reflect on the fact that just about the same number of Americans are killed in gun related deaths EVERY MONTH and that has been going on for decades with little or no moral outrage. 


And America's suicide rate continues to be unremarkable compared to other countries with much stricter gun control.

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On 8/8/2019 at 3:23 PM, jocal505 said:

But I digress. Obviously, if all these gunz were not in our homes, our averagesuicide rate could rest in peace, well below average.

But that makes zero sense.  Since other countries with average to above average suicide rates have very few gunz..... why would you think we would magically be WELL BELOW average if we had the same gun ownership rates as these other countries???  

Obviously all these guns are not in the homes in these other countries, yet they still seem to find a way to self-murder themselves.  Please explain why that is.

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52 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

 But that makes zero sense.  Since other countries with average to above average suicide rates have very few gunz..... why would you think we would magically be WELL BELOW average if we had the same gun ownership rates as these other countries???  

Obviously all these guns are not in the homes in these other countries, yet they still seem to find a way to self-murder themselves.  Please explain why that is.

You don't get to make up the facts. 

It makes all kinds of sense. So much sense that the science supports me.  This is the number one basic conclusion, of the body of work, of suicide study. Read SAILING ANAQRCHY.

If we has a culture with fewer guns in homes, the suicide rate would go down. WAY down.

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7 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Then explain to me why all those other countries with much much lower numbers of guns in homes have the same rates of suicides as the US?

Relatively speaking, and fundamentally, they may be more unhappy, without certain benefits found in the USA? That's my best shot at it.

What is yours?

 

Go ask the scientists, or give it some quality thought. It's not the only anomaly known to man. You think you are a sharp one, so I leave you with this quandary.

This is quite like your research ban denial bullshit. You have suffered, for years, in open bewilderment,about Priorities for Research--how could it happen within an alleged 20-year drought of CDC study? The answer eludes you...

You present yourself as a bright one, as intellectually keen and insatiable. So I'll leave you to figure these things out, and I'll get on with my life, in better company.

 

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27 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Your best shot is a dud then.  Why would happiness levels be a factor when the suicide rates are the same between countries.  Is someone more unhappy if they hang themselves or take pills than if they put a gun in their mouth???  So that by taking the guns away in the US, suddenly everyone's happiness level will suddenly soar?  

Really?  REALLY?

My shot?  Because people intent on self-murder will always find ways to self-murder themselves.  

Proud of being a statistics idiot. Wow.

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15 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

 

My shot?  Because people intent on self-murder will always find ways to self-murder themselves.

Nope.  You whip put a lot of alternate facts. 

These individuals usually recover. 90% of our suicide survivors go on to lead normal lives. You have been informed of this at least four times.

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4 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Then why do people without access to guns in these other countries seem to figure out how to self-murder themselves at about the same rate as 'muricans with gunz?  

They do? Amazing!

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6 hours ago, badlatitude said:

I didn't nitpick Pinker's book the commenter from your link did, I merely agreed with the conclusion. The United States is about the same in crime statistics as other countries, but are much more violent because of guns, that is a well-established fact. Guns, not crime per se, are the problem.

gun%20ownership%20countries.jpg

Everyone here is well acquainted with these numbers and graphs, they will always be a bone of contention in any gun discussion. I prefer to see with my own eyes and interpret it with my own common sense. Guns are a problem and will remain so. If we are not more violent, we are definitely crueler than at any time in our history.

 

We are about the same as other countries in self-murder rates and considerably below several countries with virtually no non-government gun ownership.

Since most of those in your chart are self-murders, I don't really see how guns are the main driver of self-murderization.

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2 minutes ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

We are about the same as other countries in self-murder rates and considerably below several countries with virtually no non-government gun ownership.

Since most of those in your chart are self-murders, I don't really see how guns are the main driver of self-murderization.

The United States suicide rate is at the highest level since WWII, while other nations have seen their numbers decline. https://time.com/5609124/us-suicide-rate-increase/

You are wrong on your first point. While you don't see guns as a main driver in suicide, the rest of us see easy accessibility is a huge proponent of suicide. 

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48 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Why then do countries with virtually no access to gunz still have higher self-murder rates?

UNODC study shows that homicide rates are highest in parts of the Americas and Africa

Firearms are behind rising murder rates in those regions, where almost three quarters of all homicides are committed with guns, compared to 21 per cent in Europe.

https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/frontpage/2011/October/unodc-study-shows-that-homicide-rates-are-highest-in-parts-of-the-americas-and-africa.html

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11 hours ago, badlatitude said:

You are wrong on your first point. While you don't see guns as a main driver in suicide, the rest of us see easy accessibility is a huge proponent of suicide. 

Mine are not all that expressive and I can't tell if they want me to off myself or not.

Was your ammosexual overcompensator a yuge proponent of you killing yourself? Maybe it was because it knew you wanted to ban it?

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4 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

WTF does that have to do with my specific question about Self-murder???  This thread is about self-murder, not murder-murder.

Here you go, Jefferaux--

Quote
  17 hours ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

We are about the same as other countries in self-murder rates and considerably below several countries with virtually no non-government gun ownership.

Since most of those in your chart are self-murders, I don't really see how guns are the main driver of self-murderization.

You too, dogballs--

Quote

Firearm Ownership and Suicide Rates Among US Men and Women, 1981-2013.

Am J Public Health. 2016 Jul;106(7):1316-22. doi: 10.2105/AJPH.2016.303182. Epub 2016 May 19.

 

Siegel M1, Rothman EF1.

Author information

Abstract

OBJECTIVES:, To examine the relationship between state-level firearm ownership rates and gender-specific, age-adjusted firearm and total suicide rates across all 50 US states from 1981 to 2013.

METHODS:

We used panel data for all 50 states that included annual overall and gender-specific suicide and firearm suicide rates and a proxy for state-level household firearm ownership. We analyzed data by using linear regression and generalized estimating equations to account for clustering.

RESULTS:

State-level firearm ownership was associated with an increase in both male and female firearm-related suicide rates and with a decrease in nonfirearm-related suicide rates. Higher gun ownership was associated with higher suicide rates by any means among male, but not among female, persons.

CONCLUSIONS:

We found a strong relationship between state-level firearm ownership and firearm suicide rates among both genders, and a relationship between firearm ownership and suicides by any means among male, but not female, individuals.

POLICY IMPLICATIONS:

For male persons, policies that reduce firearm ownership will likely reduce suicides by all means and by firearms. For female persons, such policies will likely reduce suicides by firearms.

PMID:

 

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7 hours ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

Mine are not all that eo this debate.txpressive and I can't tell if they want me to off myself or not.

Was your ammosexual overcompensator a yuge proponent of you killing yourself? Maybe it was because it knew you wanted to ban it?

Your comments render you increasingly irrelevant to this debate.

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6 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

More Americans have been killed by gun violence since 1968 than our dead from all wars combined.  I find that chilling.  (https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/las-vegas-shooting/more-americans-killed-guns-1968-all-u-s-wars-combined-n807156 )


Try to avoid self-murderizing yourself with your guns. And once again, gun control aimed at protecting us from self-murderizing ourselves strikes me as different from gun control aimed at banning and confiscating squirrel shooters and other "assault" weapons, since those focus on semi-auto's and very few people shoot themselves more than once.

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15 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Your comments render you increasingly irrelevant to this debate.

The comments are good enough for Tom, so we get lots of comments on that level. He is deteriorating, IMO.

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53 minutes ago, garuda3 said:

US has about 55,000 children , women and men killed each year so these cowards can get the HARD ON ,WTF. which 10 times more than any other country combine.


I think you have to count all the murders twice AND add in all the self-murders to get to 55k, but it is a scary number to people who don't understand your fuzzy math, so congrats on that. Do you need to fearmonger to get a HARD ON, WTF?

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8 minutes ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:


I think you have to count all the murders twice AND add in all the self-murders to get to 55k, but it is a scary number to people who don't understand your fuzzy math, so congrats on that. Do you need to fearmonger to get a HARD ON, WTF?

so I was a little off on my numbers

As per NYTIMES:Nearly 40,000 People Died From Guns in U.S. Last Year, Highest in 50 Years,

I guess there where no deaths at sandy hook or parkland , vergas , orlando 

Why don't you put AR -15 up your pussy and pull the trigger , and tell me how good it feels,

cause you are a pussy that needs a gun, 

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know matter how you look at it  we're still # 1 , the most violent country , that either kills others or our selves, I hope more gun onwers take the latter.

2010_homicide_suicide_rates_high-income_countries.png

My favorite in florida! " stand your ground story " An unarmed man goes to rob a house , The home owner grabs his gun and tells the wife to call 911 , as an armed robber is in the house, The home owner shots the man, then the police show up and see a man with a gun standing over bloody body and shoot him dead. 

so the robber dies.the gun owner dies and the wife get the insurance money and runs off with her boy friend , how that's a happy ending

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another fun shooting fact:

AUSTIN, Texas, Nov 21 (Reuters) - Three out of four U.S. children and teenagers killed in mass shootings over the past decade were victims of domestic violence and generally died in their homes, according to a study  released on Thursday by the gun control group Everytown.

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11 minutes ago, garuda3 said:

another fun shooting fact:

AUSTIN, Texas, Nov 21 (Reuters) - Three out of four U.S. children and teenagers killed in mass shootings over the past decade were victims of domestic violence and generally died in their homes, according to a study  released on Thursday by the gun control group Everytown.

If accurate, this strongly supports the institution of proper "red flag" laws. 

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10 hours ago, garuda3 said:

know matter how you look at it  we're still # 1 , the most violent country , that either kills others or our selves, I hope more gun onwers take the latter.

 

That's nice, and very clever of the Japanese to solve that whole suicide problem through gun control.

Or something.

Suicide-deaths-per-100000-trend.jpg

 

Must be the guns.

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one of my ex students was shot and killed last night  during an attempted robbery.  What does that cost? :(

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7 hours ago, dacapo said:

What does that cost? 

Priceless ( sans sarcasm )

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18 hours ago, dacapo said:

one of my ex students was shot and killed last night  during an attempted robbery.  What does that cost? :(

Was he the robber or the robbee?

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18 hours ago, dacapo said:

one of my ex students was shot and killed last night  during an attempted robbery.  What does that cost? :(

We should probably have laws against shooting others, maybe even laws against taking your gun to a gunsmith without first getting permission from the government as NYC did.

But this thread is really mostly about the cost of people shooting themselves, so not sure how this anecdote is relevant here?

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4 minutes ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

But this thread is really mostly about the cost of people shooting self-murdering themselves, so not sure how this anecdote is relevant here?

FIFY

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Was he the robber or the robbee?

does it matter? he's dead....(I know where you're going with this and  it would make me feel worse if he was an unintended consequence of a botched robbery.  But nonetheless, I feel bad )

 

he was the robber. It was his fault..I guess. He broke in a house and entered.   He was unarmed.The owner legally owned a handgun and protected his home.   But the cost of gun violence continues to rise.  Why couldn't we help this kid and kids like this all over our nation?   We spend dollar after dollar trying to give these kids an education so that they can be productive humans...no more no less.  When I had this kid ( he graduated 2 years ago. He was my student 9 years ago.) I knew he was a tough cookie.  But that's why me and the rest of his teachers worked even harder.   So there IS a price for gun violence.   

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13 minutes ago, dacapo said:
3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Was he the robber or the robbee?

does it matter? he's dead....(I know where you're going with this and  it would make me feel worse if he was an unintended consequence of a botched robbery.  But nonetheless, I feel bad )

 

he was the robber. It was his fault..I guess. He broke in a house and entered.   He was unarmed.The owner legally owned a handgun and protected his home.   But the cost of gun violence continues to rise.  Why couldn't we help this kid and kids like this all over our nation?   We spend dollar after dollar trying to give these kids an education so that they can be productive humans...no more no less.  When I had this kid ( he graduated 2 years ago. He was my student 9 years ago.) I knew he was a tough cookie.  But that's why me and the rest of his teachers worked even harder.   So there IS a price for gun violence.   

Thanks for sharing that.  And yes it's tragic whether he was the robber or not.  

But I'm sorry - I do not consider this incident to be "gun violence".  It makes no difference if he was armed or not.  He broke into someone's home and the homeowner had a legitimate right to defend himself and his family.  Unarmed robbers can be just as dangerous and deadly as armed ones.  The absolute easiest way to avoid being shot by an armed homeowner is:  DON'T BREAK INTO THEIR HOME AND ROB THEM!!!  It's actually quite simple.  

This is not the fault of guns.  Society failed him and he failed society through his poor choices.  As you said, he was given every opportunity to succeed and folks like you bent over backwards to help him and yet he still failed.  That in no way justifies that he's dead or that he deserved it.  But you can't lay this at the feet of so-called "gun violence".  If you want to lay it any anyone or anything's feet - look at our war on drugs and society's failure to address generational poverty.  Address those two things at a min and I'm betting this kid wouldn't have needed to break into a home and rob someone.  

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2 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Thanks for sharing that.  And yes it's tragic whether he was the robber or not.  

But I'm sorry - I do not consider this incident to be "gun violence".  It makes no difference if he was armed or not.  He broke into someone's home and the homeowner had a legitimate right to defend himself and his family.  Unarmed robbers can be just as dangerous and deadly as armed ones.  The absolute easiest way to avoid being shot by an armed homeowner is:  DON'T BREAK INTO THEIR HOME AND ROB THEM!!!  It's actually quite simple.  

This is not the fault of guns.  Society failed him and he failed society through his poor choices.  As you said, he was given every opportunity to succeed and folks like you bent over backwards to help him and yet he still failed.  That in no way justifies that he's dead or that he deserved it.  But you can't lay this at the feet of so-called "gun violence".  If you want to lay it any anyone or anything's feet - look at our war on drugs and society's failure to address generational poverty.  

maybe we think of violence as two different things.  what happened was violence.  Being killed by a gun is violent. Having to pull the trigger to protect your home is violent.   I am not laying this at the feet of gun violence   BUT I am saying there IS a price for the prolific amount of guns in our society.

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67610509_2352794288090584_5494146470263128064_n.jpg

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On 12/11/2019 at 4:33 AM, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

 

Your "study" is Kates and Mauser, which is a polemic.

Here's one of the bits in this "Harvard" sham. They took a look at global gun violence. One gun murder in Lichtenstein in 2008 caused the yuge spike... and ol' Don Kates built a talking point out of it, for the gullible. (That's where you come in.)

 

Kates and Mauser, graph on gun violence by country.png

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1 hour ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

In non-gun self-murder news...

Mailing cyanide to suicidal people is bad, and so is pretending to do so while actually mailing them Epsom Salts.

After reading the opinion, I'm mulling Asseverational Tom as a new screen name.

I think Polemic Tom has a much nicer ring to it....

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10 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Canada has 2.00 firearms deaths per 100,000 while the US has 12.21. So it appears Canadians aren't stupid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate


Their self-murder rate is only a bit lower but their firearms self-murder rate must be substantially lower to account for that disparity.

So I guess the lesson here is that Canadians self-murderize themselves by other, smarter methods. Wonder what those are?

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On 12/16/2019 at 8:26 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

I think Strawman Tom is probably the most accurate

The drug war is a straw man. Chicago is a straw man. Japan as well.

Dred PLACE VOTER DAY RACEBAITING HERE three.pdf.jpg

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1 hour ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

Which is another way of saying rural people who decide to self murderize themselves are more likely to have and use a gun.

Not just self murderize and I’m still waiting for a cite.

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17 hours ago, Olsonist said:
17 hours ago, Desert Racer said:

So its OK when one of your elk actively advocates for someone to put a gun in his mouth and kill himself?  Noted.  

I thought y'all were indifferent to self murders. Seriously, I could find the quotes except they're gone. You didn't want them counted as gun fatalities because, fuck, you gotta go some how, some way, some time. It was a statistical No True Scotsman.

19 pages on the subject can be found here.

And I still think calling suicides "gun violence" to justify TeamD gun bans is dishonest. It's really easy to avoid self-murderizing yourself with a gun WITHOUT banning guns for everyone: just don't own one or don't shoot yourself with it if you do.

I also think the USA has a pretty average suicide rate. We have so darn many guns. If they really cause self-murders, why don't we lead the field in that respect? And why do countries like Japan, which are TeamD/gungrabby paradise compared to the USA?

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1 hour ago, Plenipotentiary Tom said:

 

And I still think calling suicides "gun violence" to justify TeamD gun bans is dishonest.

Ah, but honesty means nothing to you. Your stubborn representation of the Miller case law is one example, but introducing Japan to discuss suicide in the USA is another. 

 

JAPAN, THE HOME OF KAMIKAZI  WARRIORS

American military officers are drilled with the duty to get the job done, and to bring their men home. Japan's culture generated govenmnent-sanctioned suicides, just five years before I was born. Japan holds a reverence for (and an acceptance of) suicide, and guns have nothing to do with their take on suicide.

 

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2 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Ah, but honesty means nothing to you. Your stubborn representation of the Miller case law is one example, but introducing Japan to discuss suicide in the USA is another. 

 

JAPAN, THE HOME OF KAMIKAZI  WARRIORS

American military officers are drilled with the duty to get the job done, and to bring their men home. Japan's culture generated govenmnent-sanctioned suicides, just five years before I was born. Japan holds a reverence for (and an acceptance of) suicide, and guns have nothing to do with their take on suicide.

 

And yet you have gone on at length about how firearms cause suicide. If this were true, shouldn't the US suicide rate rate lead the world - rather then being average? 

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4 hours ago, bpm57 said:

And yet you have gone on at length about how firearms cause suicide. If this were true, shouldn't the US suicide rate rate lead the world - rather then being average? 

Don't use Japan to rationalize suicide shit.

To answer your question, one nuance is in play in the USA: our basis for seeking (and finding) happiness might be more benign than elsewhere (and probably is, gauged by the desire to immigrate to the USA). If guns were not saturating our (fewer) un-happy homes, our national suicide average would obviously be well below the international norms.

Word. The experts say that the number one, most effective way to reduce suicides is to eliminate gunz from the home setting.

  • Guns in hoes facilitate attempts at suicide
  • Next, they facilitate the success rate of attempted suicides, from about 12% to about 90%.

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4 hours ago, jocal505 said:

Don't use Japan to rationalize suicide shit.

Did I mention Japan at all? Or are you having trouble reading again?

4 hours ago, jocal505 said:

If guns were not saturating our (fewer) un-happy homes, our national suicide average would obviously be well below the international norms.

"obviously"?  Talk about assuming facts not in evidence.

Countries with higher rates then ours have far fewer firearms. It is almost like there are other methods or something.

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5 hours ago, bpm57 said:

 

Did I mention Japan at all?

Did I say you did? I was only summing up the conversation. 

Quote

Or are you having trouble reading again?

As I read your words you are in fact rationalizing this conversation, which is a comparison of suicides in the USA and Japan. I thought you might need the announcement that these don't compare well.

Quote

"obviously"?  Talk about assuming facts not in evidence.

Oh, you want the facts, in evidence, though we've already done that.  I'll get right on it.

Quote

UCSF, Access to guns increases risk of suicide, homicide

http://medicalxpress...e-homicide.html

Access to guns increases risk of suicide, homicide

http://medicalxpress...e-homicide.html

Research: Less Access to Guns Does Reduce Suicide

http://www.motherjon...ckground-checks

Firearm Access is a Risk Factor for Suicide 

http://www.hsph.harv...ns-matter/risk/>

Suicide Barriers and Gun Control

http://www.armedwith...s-relationship/>

The Accessibility of Firearms and Risk for Suicide

http://annals.org/ar...id=1814426#f2-6> c

 

 

Quote

Countries with higher rates then ours have far fewer firearms. It is almost like there are other methods or something.

Need to cite.

In the absence of a gun, a fully committed person may choose pills, hanging, or jumping from a bridge to die... but their failure rate shoots way up.

bpm, be fair  here. THE OTHER METHODS OF SUICIDE FAIL at a 90% rate, but gunz succeed at the same rate. Having fewer guns around would be yuge (if not obvious).

 

With suicide, what you are implying is called "method substitution." In Australia they found none of it after guns were collected and controlled more strictly. Within a few years, the suicide rates went down, period.             

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