Jim M

What Does Gun Violence Really Cost?

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That's a helluva lotta depressed future self murderers in such a small country, eh Grumps?. Maybe Pusstralia ain't quite the Nirvana that so many claim it is?.....

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I'm not sure why you imagined I did not notice them.

 

Maybe, Tom, because you try hard to ignore beaucoup (19,000/yr) gun suicides:

I'm not ignoring the self murders You are claiming, ad nauseam, that they are negligible. You are pretending and preaching that they are not gun fatalities. and don't see how my views on suicide could mean I would not notice the Charleston shooting. Here's how: you also dismiss 700 gun accidents/yr as being "a handful". You show a pattern of dismissing gun deaths, pal. Your suicide gambit is a mechanism to mask 11,500 gun deaths a year...and 85,000 gun injuries.

 

I really don't see how violent crimes and self-murders are so similar in your mind. To me, it would have been a very different day if the murderer in Charleston had simply decided to become a self-murderer instead of going after other people. The going after other people thing is the big difference to me.

 

Why is that not a big difference to you?

Once again, you are forming your own beliefs, then expecting another person to think the same as you.

You'll need to discover the answer your question (Why is that not a big difference to you?) on your own.

As are you. Liberty and rights come at a cost. If you are worried about the cost you should be REALLY concerned about free cell phones.

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That's a helluva lotta depressed future self murderers in such a small country, eh Grumps?. Maybe Pusstralia ain't quite the Nirvana that so many claim it is?.....

 

Yes, and that's just one agency. There have been many more established since the buy back (paid confisdcation)

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Yeah yeah fuckin yeah. Of course there has.

 

jackie-chan-stupid.jpg

 

 

Record number of calls to Lifeline

AAP June 29, 2015, 10:28 am

Lifeline has taken a record 800,000 calls in the past year and expects that figure to top one million in the next 12 months.

 

The national counselling group also had more than 40,000 online chats via the Crisis Support Chat service, up nearly 8000 on the previous year.

 

Eight out of 10 users seeking help from the online service were aged between 15 and 44, Lifeline said on Monday.

 

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/28595724/record-number-of-calls-to-lifeline/

 

 

And not one original word. Can't think for himself apparently.

 

 

Aren't you the little pussy hypocrite.

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Hey, that link is broken, Random.

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Total annual cost of gun violence: $229 billion, 33,000 deaths and 80,000 injuries ...

 

Mother Jones spent 6 months calculating the total cost of gun violence in America. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/04/true-cost-of-gun-violence-in-america

 

No one should have to surrender or have to be threatened with the loss of their guns. Just as people who do not own guns should have to bare the cost of guns used improperly. That $229 billion should be charged directly to the people responsible for creating the cost, not to those who do nothing to create it.

 

 

 

I assume you read this little tidbit in that article?

 

 

 

 

Each year more than 11,000 people are murdered with a firearm, and more than 20,000 others commit suicide using one.

 

 

 

 

Kinda change$ the whole game now, donut?....

 

 

 

No change. Same old, tired game.

 

As a right-to-die supporter, I believe our right to life includes the right to destroy our own lives and that right implies a choice about how to go about it.

 

I just don't buy the idea that society SHOULD prevent a person like Phil Bolger from killing himself as he did. Whether we can is another question, and I don't believe we can, but I don't think we should even if it could somehow be made to work.

 

 

 

 

 

In a shameless, ghoulish move, a few of our forum posters are using suicide numbers to marginalize the US gun casualty numbers.

...

 

Yeah, I know. I wish your elk could learn that there's a difference between suicide and gun violence.

 

But when there are statistics to be padded and a gullible public that does not check into stats like R Booth did above, I expect the continued conflation of "self murders" with actual murders.

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Your meme to support gun suicide is sociopathic, Tom. Repugnant. cYou have no shame.

Many, many loved ones of the departed would take issue with you face-to-face...and I would, too.

Please source my quotes, as you frequently bring them from other threads.

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Your meme to support gun suicide is sociopathic, Tom. Repugnant. You have no shame.

Many, many loved ones of the firearm-departed would take issue with you face-to-face...and I would, too. Gun suicide sucks.

For the heck of it please source my quotes...as you frequently bring them from other threads...

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No. His position regarding suicide are common. As proven by Australia they will find a different way.

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Your meme to support gun suicide is sociopathic, Tom. Repugnant. cYou have no shame.

Many, many loved ones of the departed would take issue with you face-to-face...and I would, too.

Please source my quotes, as you frequently bring them from other threads.

 

 

I'm not hard to find, but people don't seem to even want to confront me online using their real names.

 

As for sourcing quotes that I transplant, every single one is sourced. For those who know how to use the forum, anyway.

 

Did you ever click that little box up in the corner of a quote box?

 

The one with the red arrow pointing to it in this pic?

 

quote-linkback.gif

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No. His position regarding suicide are common. As proven by Australia they will find a different way.

 

Wrong wrong wrong. Present your source.

 

I have a few sources which state, expressly, that method substitution for gun suicides was not significant.

Australian gun suicides fell to 41% of pre-change rates, with no change to non-gun suicide rates.

-- andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback_Panel.pdf

Simple results. Tally of facts:

-- Firearm related homicide rate fell to 41% of the pre-change rate

-- Firearm suicides fell to 35% of pre-law rate

States that ran quicker buy-backs saw faster declines to gun suicide rates

 

Average yearly number of firearm deaths prior to 1996 = 627.7; after 1996 = 332.6.

Average yearly number of firearm suicides prior to 1996 = 491.7; after 1996 = 246.6

Average yearly number of firearm homicides prior to 1996 = 92.9; after 1996 = 55.6

Dr. Chapman reported he could find no evidence of a “substitution effect” - a hypothesized phenomenon whereby a lack of guns would result in increased numbers of non-firearm suicides and non-firearm homicides.

Indeed, after 1996, the total number of non-firearm suicides declined an average of 4.1% per annum, while the total number of homicides (by any method) declined an average of 3.0% per annum. The differences between pre-1996 and post-1996 annual rates of non-firearm suicides and homicides by any method were both statistically significant.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/08/1309710/-Gun-Laws-And-Shooting-Injuries-The-Experience-in-Canada-and-Australia-Part-III>

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Average yearly number of firearm deaths prior to 1996 = 627.7; after 1996 = 332.6.

Average yearly number of firearm suicides prior to 1996 = 491.7; after 1996 = 246.6

Average yearly number of firearm homicides prior to 1996 = 92.9; after 1996 = 55.6

Dr. Chapman reported he could find no evidence of a “substitution effect” - a hypothesized phenomenon whereby a lack of guns would result in increased numbers of non-firearm suicides and non-firearm homicides.

Indeed, after 1996, the total number of non-firearm suicides declined an average of 4.1% per annum, while the total number of homicides (by any method) declined an average of 3.0% per annum. The differences between pre-1996 and post-1996 annual rates of non-firearm suicides and homicides by any method were both statistically significant.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/08/1309710/-Gun-Laws-And-Shooting-Injuries-The-Experience-in-Canada-and-Australia-Part-III>

 

 

So the non-firearm rate declined, huh?

Here's the sour cherry from the same source:

 

Writing in the British Journal of Criminology in 2007, Baker and McPhedran report that firearm suicide rates in Australia were declining in the period prior to passage of the NFA, while non-firearm suicides were increasing. After the NFA, the researchers observed further reductions in firearm suicides (statistically significant lowering of post-NFA firearm suicides from what was predicted by pre-NFA firearm suicide rates), and no significant change in the rate of non-firearm suicides post-NFA.

 

 

Oh, so it didn't decline, huh?

 

I think they need some more time above the urinal so more peers can check this discrepancy out.

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Russia and Mexico have strict controls and gun problems. New Zealand doesn't and doesn't.

 

Here in America, our worst problems occur in areas like DC and Chicago, where we also have very strict gun control. In Idaho, with very loose gun laws, we don't have big problems, nor in Vermont, where no permit to carry a concealed weapon has ever been required.

 

You have to carefully ignore things like that to continue believing that gun control solves crime problems.

 

 

Cherry picking, are we? Thanks for some exceptions to the rules.

Scratch beneath the surface, and Vermont has some gun problems that show clearly, and go back a ways.

 

Based on CDC Data Mass Vermont

Gun violence outcomes #49 of 50 states #37

2.11/100K 10.55/100K

Ave. for ten years prior 3.38 8.96

Homicides 2010 126 deaths,1.92/100K 27 deaths 0.98/100K*

Suicides 2010 2.11/100K 10.55/100K

Gun deaths, children .074 /100K 1.02/100K

Armed aggrav. Assaults 33.19 /100K 12.60*

Crime Gun export rate 3.6/100K 22.8/100K

2009 Short time-to-crime 9.8% guns recovered 19.6%

 

*These state favor Tom's theory, so he cherry picks them.

The other stats, not so much.

 

 

If you mean the self-murder stats, we should probably talk about them in this thread, where I have laid out my thoughts on that subject.

 

As for stuff that normal people consider "violence" I'd say thanks for confirming that the weak gun laws in Vermont have not led to a hotbed of crime.

 

 

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Russia and Mexico have strict controls and gun problems. New Zealand doesn't and doesn't.

 

Here in America, our worst problems occur in areas like DC and Chicago, where we also have very strict gun control. In Idaho, with very loose gun laws, we don't have big problems, nor in Vermont, where no permit to carry a concealed weapon has ever been required.

 

You have to carefully ignore things like that to continue believing that gun control solves crime problems.

 

 

Cherry picking, are we? Thanks for some exceptions to the rules.

Scratch beneath the surface, and Vermont has some gun problems that show clearly, and go back a ways.

 

Based on CDC Data Mass Vermont

Gun violence outcomes #49 of 50 states #37

2.11/100K 10.55/100K

Ave. for ten years prior 3.38 8.96

Homicides 2010 126 deaths,1.92/100K 27 deaths 0.98/100K*

Suicides 2010 2.11/100K 10.55/100K

Gun deaths, children .074 /100K 1.02/100K

Armed aggrav. Assaults 33.19 /100K 12.60*

Crime Gun export rate 3.6/100K 22.8/100K

2009 Short time-to-crime 9.8% guns recovered 19.6%

 

*These state favor Tom's theory, so he cherry picks them.

The other stats, not so much.

 

 

If you mean the self-murder stats, we should probably talk about them in this thread, where I have laid out my thoughts on that subject.

 

As for stuff that normal people consider "violence" I'd say thanks for confirming that the weak gun laws in Vermont have not led to a hotbed of crime.

 

Aside from their suicide problem, the stats show that laid-back Vermont is exporting crime guns, and gun problems, to other states.

You should start your own thread, "Tom Ray Endorses U.S. Gun Suicide Numbers." Because you are missing the poin (intentionally, I suppose).

 

What Does Gun Violence Really Cost

Besides the astronomical financial costs of 85,000 shooting survivors per year (a cost born by the public), I thought Tom Diaz has the best insight on the thread title. TD pointed to the decline of values in play.

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No state "exports crime guns" anywhere. What happens is, people buy guns where selling guns is allowed. In places where it's not allowed, unsurprisingly, the guns come from elsewhere. Meaning, places where selling them is allowed.

 

Now, if we were to eliminate ALL the places that sell them, we could solve our problems, right? Until your dreams of civilian disarmament come true, people will continue to buy and sell guns where it's allowed and to smuggle them into places where it's not. Vermont doesn't send those smugglers, except in a very warped view of personal responsibility.

 

 

 

 

 

ps: tools

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Our second amendment is not about hunting.

 

(...)

 

If having lots of guns and fairly weak gun laws solved crime problems, Louisiana would be a very peaceful place. It isn't.

 

If strict gun laws and few guns solved crime problems, Chicago (or Baltimore) would be peaceful places. They're not.

 

Idaho's high gun ownership rate, lax gun laws, and low crime rate don't mean guns cause the low crime rate.

 

Hawaii's low gun ownership rate, strict gun laws, and low crime rate don't mean gun control caused the low crime rate.

 

 

 

 

 

Tom, in the interest of fair comparisons, please present your definition of "crime rate" here. Because gun involvement occurs in few crimes, and guns are excluded from many violent crimes.

 

O Badgeless Dodger, this post may be the best of your presentations on a question which you have avoided elsewhere. Be forewarned: you just made a few intelligent-sounding statements. Each can be challenged, in some depth. But for now, let's consider the overview of gun violence, not your favorite cherries. I have two big-picture analyses to consider.

 

The first is a solid presentation by CAP. Incidentally, last month this group suggested, in a very mature way, that the ATF get rolled into the FBI. ATF Merger Proposed, 160-Page Report Cites Leadership Challenges, Coordination, and Resources as Major Rationales for Merger.

To determine the overall impact, or lack of impact, of gun laws, the CAP analyzed the states with the strongest gun laws against the states with the weakest. Rather than sloppy Tom's sloppy comparisons between general violence rates and gun ownership, which compare poorly, this group chose ten indexes of gun violence. These seem fair, objective and comprehensive.

 

TEN INDICES OF GUN VIOLENCE (Center for American Progress study)

  1. Overall firearm deaths in 2010
  2. Overall firearm deaths from 2001 through 2013.
  3. Firearm homicides in 2010
  4. Firearm suicides in 2010
  5. Firearm homicides among women from 2001 through 2010
  6. Firearm deaths among children ages 0 to 17, from 2001 to 2010.
  7. Law enforcement agents feloniously killed with a firearm 2002-2011
  8. Aggravated assaults with a firearm in 2011.
  9. Crime-gun export rates in 2009.
  10. Percentage of crime guns with a short "time to crime" in 2009.
  11. <http://truth-out.org/news/item/15524-a-50-state-analysis-of-gun-violence-and-its-link-to-weak-state-gun-laws>

 

 

The Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence analysis shows that eight of these states are among the 25 states with the weakest gun laws.

While the strength of a state’s gun laws is just one factor in the prevalence of gun-related violence in the state and cannot alone account for gun violence, there is a clear link between weak gun laws and high levels of gun violence across the United States.

 

 

 

The second comprehensive source may be the largest U.S. study, ever. It found a "robust correlation" (which is scientific language suggesting causality because the correlation applies from myriad angles).

 

Seigal 2013 Largest Gun Study Ever: More Guns, More Murder

We observed a robust correlation between higher levels of gun ownership and higher firearm homicide rates. Harvard Researchers, 2013

The Seigal Study The study, covering 30 years (1981-2010) in all 50 states, found a “robust correlation” between estimated levels of gun ownership and actual gun homicides at the state level, even when controlling for factors typically associated with homicides. Seigal 2014

Actually, it’s hard to find a more robust correlation (edit. link goes to Fleegler 2001-2010) in the social sciences than the one between gun laws and gun violence.

 

 

 

Again with the self-murders? Can't we keep that nonsense to this thread and talk about things that normal people consider violence in other gun threads?

 

I don't have a definition, but the US Census does. Of course, the fact that I did not provide their definition is just terrible. Terrible. I'll do it again, so you can emphasize what a bad messenger I am without ever addressing the message. Again.

 

brady-vs-census.jpg

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Was it wrong for the Brady Bunch to pull that shit out of their collective ass? I mean, if it was wrong for me, it must have been wrong when they did it too, right? :lol:

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It's embarrassing to deal with a fella who keeps presenting such garbage. Tom, re-work that damn thing. Stop throwing out useless comparisons, and abusing your own credibility: you can do better.

 

For one thing, that old Brady stuff is not a desirable in-depth source for the state of U.S. gun laws. A quality, well-researched, current, state-by-state breakdown of gun laws can be obtained from the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. All 50 states are ranked numerically.

 

Good luck on your project. Here's a toast to better discussions. (Clink!)

 

 

TomRayGate%20three%20dollar%20bill_zpsno

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Again with the self-murders? Can't we keep that nonsense to this thread...

 

You hijacked this thread for your deadly purpose of promoting the present level of gun suicides.

Your figures quote 21,000 gun suicides last year. These were human lives. Not one of those deaths was "nonsense".

This is the point where I would relish a sit-down with your mama.

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There is no relationship between suicide rates and firearm ownership. Lithuania has the highest rate of suicides where the preferred method is hanging. Perhaps the Lithuanians should institute "rope control"? Maybe a limit on yardage?

 

Canada and the US have comparable rates of suicide but differ significantly in terms of gun ownership.

 

international-suicide-rates.jpg

 

Pretty much everything you read from Jokeawf is BS.

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Again with the self-murders? Can't we keep that nonsense to this thread...

 

You hijacked this thread for your deadly purpose of promoting the present level of gun suicides.

Your figures quote 21,000 gun suicides last year. These were human lives. Not one of those deaths was "nonsense".

This is the point where I would relish a sit-down with your mama.

 

 

Quit dragging family into this. It's creepy, especially coming from someone who imagines such strange things about me.

 

No, I decided to make a mockery of this thread because I think normal people don't think of suicides as "gun violence" and I see those deaths being exploited by gun control proponents like yourself to imply a higher level of violence (the real kind, involving more than one person) than exists. And speaking of mockery...

 

 

 

 

 

ps: tools

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There is no relationship between suicide rates and firearm ownership. Lithuania has the highest rate of suicides where the preferred method is hanging. Perhaps the Lithuanians should institute "rope control"? Maybe a limit on yardage?

 

Canada and the US have comparable rates of suicide but differ significantly in terms of gun ownership.

 

international-suicide-rates.jpg

 

Pretty much everything you read from Jokeawf is BS.

 

There's a whole lotta guns in the Seychelles compared to the population, yet they don't seem to be self-murdering at a very high rate. Of course the diving and the seafood in the Seychelles was pretty fucking good - so I can certainly understand why they aren't a terribly self-murdering culture in a tropical paradise like that. So that sorta dispels the notion that guns "cause" high suicide rates.

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Again with the self-murders? Can't we keep that nonsense to this thread...

 

You hijacked this thread for your deadly purpose of promoting the present level of gun suicides.

Your figures quote 21,000 gun suicides last year. These were human lives. Not one of those deaths was "nonsense".

This is the point where I would relish a sit-down with your mama.

 

 

Quit dragging family into this. It's creepy, especially coming from someone who imagines such strange things about me.

 

No, I decided to make a mockery of this thread because I think normal people don't think of suicides as "gun violence" and I see those deaths being exploited by gun control proponents like yourself to imply a higher level of violence (the real kind, involving more than one person) than exists. And speaking of mockery...

 

 

 

 

 

ps: tools

 

 

Leaving your fine family out of this then, help me to understand how your quaint value system evolved.

You live with indifference towards the gun violence you support.

--with tens of thousands of suicides every year,

--with advocacy for shall-issue,

--with support for private gun sales sans the decency of background checks.

--You think the timing is good to remove the restrictions from machine guns,

You insist on the interwebs that the FBI barbequed the Koresh followers...as part of an ATF publicity stunt.

You feel okay about a series untruthful statements. (I refer you to the collection of documented Tom Ray Whoppers)

Your stats introduce comparisons between the USA and war-torn countries, and introduce stranglings, poisonings, and other non-related murders.

 

Is this behavior taught by your environment? Or did you personally develop this unique POV?

 

Tom%20day%20after%20Sandy%20Hook_zps5pu1

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Tom supports 'gun violence'? Are you fucking insane?....

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Again with the self-murders? Can't we keep that nonsense to this thread...

 

You hijacked this thread for your deadly purpose of promoting the present level of gun suicides.

Your figures quote 21,000 gun suicides last year. These were human lives. Not one of those deaths was "nonsense".

This is the point where I would relish a sit-down with your mama.

 

 

Quit dragging family into this. It's creepy, especially coming from someone who imagines such strange things about me.

 

No, I decided to make a mockery of this thread because I think normal people don't think of suicides as "gun violence" and I see those deaths being exploited by gun control proponents like yourself to imply a higher level of violence (the real kind, involving more than one person) than exists. And speaking of mockery...

 

 

 

 

 

ps: tools

 

 

 

You live with indifference towards the gun violence you support.

--with tens of thousands of suicides every year,

 

There is no relationship between suicide rates and firearm ownership. Lithuania has the highest rate of suicides where the preferred method is hanging. Perhaps the Lithuanians should institute "rope control"? Maybe a limit on yardage?

Canada and the US have comparable rates of suicide but differ significantly in terms of gun ownership.

international-suicide-rates.jpg

Murder rates are declining even as gun sales increase. Gun manufacturing in the US has doubled in the last decade as the murder rate has plummeted.

WTF are you talking about, Jokeawf?

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He has no idea. He's just parroting the brady bunch talking points......

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No. His position regarding suicide are common. As proven by Australia they will find a different way.

Wrong wrong wrong. Present your source.

 

I have a few sources which state, expressly, that method substitution for gun suicides was not significant.

Australian gun suicides fell to 41% of pre-change rates, with no change to non-gun suicide rates.

-- andrewleigh.org/pdf/GunBuyback_Panel.pdf

Simple results. Tally of facts:

-- Firearm related homicide rate fell to 41% of the pre-change rate

-- Firearm suicides fell to 35% of pre-law rate

States that ran quicker buy-backs saw faster declines to gun suicide rates

 

Average yearly number of firearm deaths prior to 1996 = 627.7; after 1996 = 332.6.

Average yearly number of firearm suicides prior to 1996 = 491.7; after 1996 = 246.6

Average yearly number of firearm homicides prior to 1996 = 92.9; after 1996 = 55.6

Dr. Chapman reported he could find no evidence of a substitution effect - a hypothesized phenomenon whereby a lack of guns would result in increased numbers of non-firearm suicides and non-firearm homicides.

Indeed, after 1996, the total number of non-firearm suicides declined an average of 4.1% per annum, while the total number of homicides (by any method) declined an average of 3.0% per annum. The differences between pre-1996 and post-1996 annual rates of non-firearm suicides and homicides by any method were both statistically significant.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/08/1309710/-Gun-Laws-And-Shooting-Injuries-The-Experience-in-Canada-and-Australia-Part-III>

Immediately after guns were banned the overall suicide rate remained the same. The reduction in gum homicide rates was replaced with self hangings. Austrailin Bureau of statistics ...or something like that. It took a year or two for suicide rate overall to drop.

 

Thus there is not a direct correlation of suicide reduction with gun confiscation. Could just as well be other program(s).

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He (jocal505) has no idea. He's just parroting the brady bunch talking points......

 

If you identify with the Brady Bunch as your arch-enemy, or as any source of information used by me, you are poorly informed.

(I've been using common internet search engines, and applied curiosity.)

Jeff, your problems are compounding, as anti-gun forces are maturing.

 

Check out a well-packaged new player, which is presenting a depth of stunning information, daily: The Trace.

(In this link, the writer of model LCM legislation is exposed: Sturm Ruger.)

 

Bloomberg provided the startup capital for The Trace. Top writers were recruited.

--Including Jessica Mascia, a key researcher from NYT/Joe Nocera Gun Report (which closed shop after one year of daily gun violence reports, as recovered from all media.They reported every DGU they found...but found few of them over 365 daily reports. On average, Ms. Mascia documented one hundred and thirty gun incidents every weekend.)

--The Trace also uses the work of a young man who can own Robert Farago on any gun violence subject.

Evan de Phillipis is young and brilliant. How brilliant? He was the valedictorian at a school which gets 70% of the National Merit Scholarship recipients i.e. (the top 1% of PSAT scorers). The gun rights movement has its hands full with the calm scientific approach of his work: Armed With Reason.

Jeff, the SA Gun Club and Gun Club Choir are in a spot. Anti-gun sources are stepping it up.

Meanwhile, your finest scholar, Mr.Tom Ray, sounds like a blubbering fool...his resources and study habits are poor, compared to other elk.

See you at the finish line someday.

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Again with the self-murders? Can't we keep that nonsense to this thread...

 

You hijacked this thread for your deadly purpose of promoting the present level of gun suicides.

Your figures quote 21,000 gun suicides last year. These were human lives. Not one of those deaths was "nonsense".

This is the point where I would relish a sit-down with your mama.

 

 

Quit dragging family into this. It's creepy, especially coming from someone who imagines such strange things about me.

 

You don't seem straight-up to me, Tom.

I note a duplicitous pattern of double standards in your posts, on most subjects.

Tom Ray, on 28 Jun 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

So when are we going sailing with your mom?

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=166577&p=4995033

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".or something like that"

 

 

 

fuck

Google it. I did a month ago. Your own government published stats.

 

I notice you aren't claiming what I posted was not true.

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(To Tom Ray) You live with indifference towards the gun violence you support.

--with tens of thousands of suicides every year,

 

There is no relationship between suicide rates and firearm ownership.

(...)

WTF are you talking about, Jokeawf?

 

 

Hi NGS.

You don't have to be out in left field about suicide danger, not after today. You could inform yourself by doing a little reading. Here's a collection of six article links which show how the impulsivity of suicide and the presence of guns, even locked guns, is a bad mix.

 

In the first one, sixteen peer-reviewed studies of U.S. suicide are summarized.

 

They indicate that you and Jeff don't know what you're talking about.

For Tom Ray (my badgeless, research-challenged nemesis), Source 1 confirms that more guns relate to more homicides.

 

Source 1.

The Accessibility of Firearms and Risk for Suicide and Homicide Victimization Among Household Members: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis.

Conclusion: Access to firearms is associated with risk for completed suicide and being the victim of homicide.

Primary Funding Source: None.

Source 2.

What is it about Guns?

Guns are more lethal than other suicide means. They’re quick. And they’re irreversible.

About 85% of attempts with a firearm are fatal: that’s a much higher case fatality rate than for nearly every other method. Many of the most widely used suicide attempt methods have case fatality rates below 5%. (See Case Fatality Ratio by Method of Self-Harm.)

Attempters who take pills or inhale car exhaust or use razors have some time to reconsider mid-attempt and summon help or be rescued. The method itself often fails, even in the absence of a rescue. Even many of those who use hanging can stop mid-attempt as about half of hanging suicides are partial-suspension (meaning the person can release the pressure if they change their mind) (Bennewith 2005).With a firearm, once the trigger is pulled, there’s no turning back.

<http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/#What is it>

Source 3.

When considering suicides by nonfirearm methods in the identified literature, researchers have generally found reduced odds of suicide completion by any means other than a firearm, comparing firearm accessibility (OR range, 0.68 to 0.90) (7, 10, 22, 24).http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1814426#f2-6>

Results: From January 1990 to December 1997, among individuals 10 years or older in the state of Illinois, there were 37 352 hospital admissions for para-suicide and 10 287 completed suicides. Firearms are the most lethal suicide method. Episodes involving firearms are 2.6 times (95% CI 2.1 to 3.1) more lethal than those involving suffocation—the second most lethal suicide method. Preventing access to firearms can reduce the proportion of fatal firearms related suicides by 32% among minors, and 6.5% among adults. Conclusions: Limiting access to firearms is a potentially effective means of reducing suicide mortality.

J Epidemiol Community Health 2003;57:120–124

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1732374/pdf/v057p00120.pdf

Source 4.

Twelve or more U.S. case control studies have compared individuals who died by suicide with those who did not and found those dying by suicide were more likely to live in homes with guns.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/>

Source 5.

Access to guns increases risk of suicide, homicide

Of the 15 studies included in the meta-analysis, the only one that did not find a statistically meaningful increase in the odds of death associated with access to firearms was from New Zealand, where guns are much less available than they are in the United States. And even that study did find an increase, although not a statistically significant one.

(…)

When firearms were accessible, men were nearly four times more likely to commit suicide than when firearms were not accessible, while women were almost three times more likely to be victims of homicide.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-01-access-guns-suicide-homicide.html>

Source 6.

American College of Physicians

All but 1 study (20) found significantly higher odds of suicide among participants who had firearm access than among those who did not, with ORs ranging from 1.38 to 10.38.

http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1814426#f2-6>

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Again with the self-murders? Can't we keep that nonsense to this thread...

 

You hijacked this thread for your deadly purpose of promoting the present level of gun suicides.

Your figures quote 21,000 gun suicides last year. These were human lives. Not one of those deaths was "nonsense".

This is the point where I would relish a sit-down with your mama.

 

 

Quit dragging family into this. It's creepy, especially coming from someone who imagines such strange things about me.

 

You don't seem straight-up to me, Tom.

I note a duplicitous pattern of double standards in your posts, on most subjects.

Tom Ray, on 28 Jun 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

So when are we going sailing with your mom?

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=166577&p=4995033

 

 

Yeah, after a half dozen or so creepy requests, I did decide to try to show you how creepy you seem. Obviously it did not work.

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Quote

Tom Ray, on 28 Jun 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

So when are we going sailing with your mom?

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=166577&p=4995033

 

Tom Ray: Quit dragging family into this.

 

Hmmm, you keep deflecting to family matters. Set that aside, and let's talk about your creds. No worries?

How did you develop such creds?

How about your shamelessness factor? No red face, ever?

Really, how do you expect to pass off statements such as "The NRA only took interest in the second amendment around 2007-2008?"

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What a clown. We were discussing your credibility, and you tossed out a link to a 2007 article.

The link says ZIP about the NRA awakening to 2nd A concerns circa 2007.

Your great source tells how NRA figures and Levy bickered about SC timing around 2002. Then the NRA's Gura did the heavy lifting, pre-2007, while NRA attorney Halbrook threw spagetti at a SC wall concurrently, each on behalf of the Second.

 

Your source opposes your own premise, duh. You just added to your credibility issue.

 

 

 

 

 

rousey%20on%20suicide_zpsh4hhlnuf.jpg

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Tick tock tick tock......

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...

The link says ZIP about the NRA awakening to 2nd A concerns circa 2007.

Your great source tells how NRA figures and Levy bickered about SC timing around 2002. Then the NRA's Gura did the heavy lifting, pre-2007, while NRA attorney Halbrook threw spagetti at a SC wall concurrently, each on behalf of the Second.

 

 

 

You mean this part, in which "the NRA's Gura" complains about the NRA's efforts to stop the Parker/Heller case from proceeding?

 

...Meanwhile, the NRA again began to press its argument in Congress for passage of the D.C. Personal Protection Act, the 2003 legislation that would have repealed the ban. Levy says that this spring he finally persuaded NRA lobbyist LaPierre to back off, for at least a little while. Still, it was just another distraction the Parker lawyers didn’t appreciate.

 

“I had to spend a number of weeks on Capitol Hill because of it,” Gura says. “If the NRA’s bill had passed, it would have mooted our case and vacated our [D.C. Circuit] opinion.”

 

 

Gura wanted to press the case, the NRA wanted to hijack it to avoid a second amendment decision and/or moot it to avoid a second amendment decision. It was only after Gura won that the NRA suddenly discovered that winning was possible and became less afraid of pursuing second amendment cases.

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Gun bans may have some small effect on the rate of self-murder using firearms but seem to have little or no effect on the overall rate of self-murder.

The docs and researchers disagree with this statement. To dispute them, Tom, you need to lay out your argument, using quality statistics and their sources.

I have laid out the evidence-based position of the medical community many times on these boards. The American Psychologist Assn., the AMA, and the American Peditrician Assn. have weighed in, unequivalently, against you.

 

 

To infringe on a protected right, there must be a compelling reason.

According to your own sources, Tom, 21,000 compelling reasons (deaths on the receiving end of a gun barrel) happened last year. Many were rash, impulsive, and/or devastating to our communities.

 

 

The government has no compelling reason to change the method (but not rate) of suicide...

Says you, based on a vacuum of science. The present rate of gun suicide in the USA is not acceptable. Far from being excusable somehow, these suicides may be the biggest reason to not accept guns in our homes and in our lives.

 

 

Ah geez with the self-murders again? What about the poison violence?

 

Suicide-deaths-per-100000-trend.jpg

 

Must be the guns.

 

But what about the suffocation violence and the poison violence?

...

 

 

They add up to 16k people, far more than are killed by the type of gun violence that is inflicted by others. Almost as many as self-inflicted "violence" using guns.

 

We obviously need plastic bag control just to start. How much financial responsibility should plastic bag manufacturers take? Or do people usually use ropes? Are we going after the rope moguls for being merchants of death?

 

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This discussion was about the high level of gun suicide in the USA.

To introduce poisonings and suffocations in other countries is not germaine.

Neither is the pathetic non-relevance of plastic bag control. (Do we have 85,000 plastic bag attack survivors every year? And 11,000 non-survivors?)

 

You quote yourself a lot. Please provide the thread links to these other hollow discussions.

Thanks.

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Guns save lives:

 

 

A HERO SAS sniper gunned down a knife-wielding Islamic State (ISIS) maniac just as he was trying to brutally behead a father and his young son.

sniper-rifle-597166.jpgALAMY

An SAS sniper took out the ISIS executioner just in time

The brave British marksman saved the terrified eight-year-old and his father after taking out the crazed jihadi with a head shot from 1,000 metres away.

ALAMY

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You’re walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, raises the knife, and charges. You are carrying a Glock 40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?

______________________________________________________________________________

Liberal’s Answer:

Well, that’s not enough information to answer the question!

+ Does the man look poor or oppressed?
+ Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack?
+ Could we run away?
+ What does my wife think? What about the kids?
+ Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand?
+ What does the law say about this situation?
+ Does the Glock have an appropriate safety built into it?
+ Why am I carrying a loaded gun and what kind of message does this send to society and my children? Is it possible he’d be happy with just killing me?
+ Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me?
+ If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me?

This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion.
______________________________________________________________________________

Conservative’s Answer:

BANG!
______________________________________________________________________________

Texan’s Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click (sounds of reloading).

Wife: “Sweetheart, he looks like he’s still moving. What do you kids think?”
Son: “Mom’s right Dad, I saw it too…”

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click.

Daughter: “Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips?”

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And look there - nice big military presence in pusstralia. One phone call and you are ours.

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Go for it PoxDog. The record of the US invasions in the last years if one of fail after fail after fucking fail. Losers.

 

"If we get chased out of Iraq with our tail between our legs, that will be the fifth consecutive Third-world country with no hint of a Navy or an Air Force to have whipped us in the past 40 years." Hunter S Thompson 2003

 

Which is a perfect argument for the 2nd Amendment. If even a few thousand rag-tag group of goat fuckers can do damage to the mighty US Army - I'm betting a determined group of 100 million armed citizens could overturn a repressive dictatorship if it ever got to that point. Thanks for making the case for us. Welcome to the pro-gun rights camp! I knew you would see the light.

 

As an aside, I'm pretty sure there were some AUS soldiers as part of that effort - i guess they are losers too?

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Go for it PoxDog. The record of the US invasions in the last years if one of fail after fail after fucking fail. Losers.

 

"If we get chased out of Iraq with our tail between our legs, that will be the fifth consecutive Third-world country with no hint of a Navy or an Air Force to have whipped us in the past 40 years." Hunter S Thompson 2003

Losers who control your government and thus your country. Our government loves countries that they can place huge military forces into and then get hosts to disarm themselves. Suckers.

 

American public isn't as dumb as you think. We'll keep our arms.

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The pusstralia were only there due to pressure. They gotta pay for their protection somehow. Nothing in life is free.

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Nice bullshit as usual. "Violent Crime"? So you are comparing gun numbers to Beatings?

 

Meanwhile ...

 

In the United States, annual deaths resulting from firearms total

Year: Deaths

2013: 33,636

2012: 33,563

2011: 32,351

2010: 31,672

2009: 31,347

2008: 31,593

2007: 31,224

2006: 30,896

2005: 30,694

2004: 29,569

2003: 30,136

2002: 30,242

2001: 29,573

2000: 28,663

1999: 28,874

 

How dare you mix violent crimes with violent crimes? Outrageous!

 

Now excuse me while I mix self-murders with actual murders and accidents!

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Hey it's Tom, the NRA spokesperson. So how was the last "Friends of the NRA" meeting? Any black people rock up this time?

 

Oh sorry, that's right I forgot. The NRA is about white people having guns to protect themselves from a slave rebellion.

 

I've been waiting and waiting for you to actually ask that question.

 

You assumed, based on one picture, that no black people were in attendance. You assumed wrong. Yes, black people "rocked up" last time.

 

But feel free to continue pursuing your wrong assumption and act like you never actually asked a question and learned something. It will be more in character.

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Hey it's Tom, the NRA spokesperson. So how was the last "Friends of the NRA" meeting? Any black people rock up this time?

 

Oh sorry, that's right I forgot. The NRA is about white people having guns to protect themselves from a slave rebellion.

 

I've been waiting and waiting for you to actually ask that question.

 

You assumed, based on one picture, that no black people were in attendance. You assumed wrong. Yes, black people "rocked up" last time.

 

But feel free to continue pursuing your wrong assumption and act like you never actually asked a question and learned something. It will be more in character.

 

 

Pictures or it didn't happen.

 

 

Specifically, I'd like a picture of some black Friends of the NRA at Tom's table. And maybe a recording of the conversation.

 

Some suggestions for TR (a nice icebreaker transition to get things rolling):

"Good evening, all. Nice to see you again. Nice weather out.

How was your day today? Is your back-to-school shopping complete?

I'm quite close to Ernie, and I'm all about learning, so let's chat a bit about cultural developments.

I hear that the Black Panthers are coming, with their guns.

And that Louis Farrakhan & the Nation of Islam are coming, with their guns.

I have heard that Rev. Mosteller is leading the armament of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.

Have any updates?"

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...

 

Tom, why would the VA recommending that a vet suffering from dementia not have a gun, be inappropriate if it lowers self murder? Or is self murder always a good thing?

 

Gun bans may have some small effect on the rate of self-murder using firearms but seem to have little or no effect on the overall rate of self-murder. To infringe on a protected right, there must be a compelling reason. The government has no compelling reason to change the method (but not rate) of suicide, even if we assume that dementia means that his right to life has been assumed by the government. That last assumption is debatable in my mind too, but I assumed for argument's sake that the debate went your way.

 

Self ownership is almost always a good thing and should be overridden only in rare, extreme circumstances.

 

 

You wax philosophically really well here, Tom. Very high-tone...using empty, debunked claims.

You have claimed that you have an interest in learning, so what's the deal?

You forgot a recent interchange with me.

You couldn't dispute these rate-of-suicide death sources then. So you oughta know better than claim the bolded, above.

You learned nothing, then denied the knowledge.

 

UCSF, Access to guns increases risk of suicide, homicide

http://medicalxpress...e-homicide.html>

Access to guns increases risk of suicide, homicide

http://medicalxpress...e-homicide.html>

Research: Less Access to Guns Does Reduce Suicide

http://www.motherjon...ckground-checks>

Firearm Access is a Risk Factor for Suicide

http://www.hsph.harv...ns-matter/risk/>

Suicide Barriers and Gun Control

http://www.armedwith...s-relationship/>

The Accessibility of Firearms and Risk for Suicide

http://annals.org/ar...id=1814426#f2-6>

Pasted from <http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=165680&p=4948543>

 

 

The rates of self murder using guns should not be mixed in with other rates of self-murder, jocal. Aren't you the one who taught me that?

 

Either way, I still believe more strongly in self-ownership and our right to die than I do in the nanny state's obligation to protect us from ourselves. The fact that suicide rates are unaffected by strict gun control in places like Japan is really not relevant. Even if protecting us from ourselves through gun control worked, I would still oppose it.

 

Why do you keep bringing up self-murder in other threads? You know it's just going back to this thread.

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Hi Tom. You are a gun suicide cheerleader, who hi-jacked a thread to rant for more human tragedy.

Avoid this woman.Rhonda%20Rousey%20and%20sociopaths_zps6w

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The rates of self murder using guns should not be mixed in with other rates of self-murder, jocal. STRAW MAN ALERT Aren't you the one who taught me that?

 

Either way, I still believe more strongly in self-ownership and our right to die than I do in the nanny state's obligation to protect us from ourselves. The fact that suicide rates are unaffected by strict gun control in places like Japan is really not relevant. Even if protecting us from ourselves through gun control worked, I would still oppose it.

 

Why do you keep bringing up self-murder in other threads? Because you lied about suicides here. You know it's just going back to this thread.

 

 

You changed the subject to a libertarian talking point. Back up your statement, Badgeless Boy:

Tom Ray, on 08 Aug 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Gun bans may have some small effect on the rate of self-murder using firearms but seem to have little or no effect on the overall rate of self-murder...The government has no compelling reason to change the method (but not rate) of suicide

 

The info that I find is consistent with this very intelligent, evidence-based content:

 

In overall suicide rate, the United States ranks roughly in the middle of the pack among industrialized nations. However, we are the exception when it comes to suicides among children between the ages of 5 and 14, with an overall rate twice the average of other developed nations. This stark difference is driven almost exclusively by a firearm-related suicide rate that is 10 times the average of other industrialized nations.

Adolescents living in states with higher gun prevalence also suffer from higher rates of suicide. Adolescents who commit suicide are significantly more likely to live with a firearm in their home even after adjusting for various risk factors. This increased risk holds true regardless of how the firearm is stored or the type of gun. Firearms that are stored loaded have the highest risk, while safely stored guns (locked and unloaded) are much safer. Proper firearm storage can’t mitigate the entire risk of adolescent gun suicide, but it is a necessary step.

Pasted from <http://www.armedwith...ic-combination/>

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Back up your statement

Tom Ray, on 08 Aug 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Gun bans may have some small effect on the rate of self-murder using firearms but seem to have little or no effect on the overall rate of self-murder...The government has no compelling reason to change the method (but not rate) of suicide

 

The info that I find is consistent with this very intelligent, evidence-based content:

 

In overall suicide rate, the United States ranks roughly in the middle of the pack among industrialized nations. However, we are the exception when it comes to suicides among children between the ages of 5 and 14, with an overall rate twice the average of other developed nations. This stark difference is driven almost exclusively by a firearm-related suicide rate that is 10 times the average of other industrialized nations.

Adolescents living in states with higher gun prevalence also suffer from higher rates of suicide. Adolescents who commit suicide are significantly more likely to live with a firearm in their home even after adjusting for various risk factors. This increased risk holds true regardless of how the firearm is stored or the type of gun. Firearms that are stored loaded have the highest risk, while safely stored guns (locked and unloaded) are much safer. Proper firearm storage can’t mitigate the entire risk of adolescent gun suicide, but it is a necessary step.

Pasted from <http://www.armedwith...ic-combination/>

 

 

Your cite backs up my statement. The red words agree.

 

In the context of gun control, the rest of what you posted probably means we should make it illegal to sell guns to 5 year olds.

 

Oh, wait, we already did.

 

 

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You just cherry-picked your quote. You left these out:

 

 

...small effect on the rate of self-murder
...change the method (but not rate) of suicide

 

Then you cherry-picked my content from yesterday. See Post 519. Yikes, six informed sources show that guns are stoking U.S. suicides.

Five of six sources mention the gun access problem in the article's title.

 

You have no cites for your dishonest statements, but are stating your deadly, compromised opinions as definitive.

You are trying to use 21,500 gun suicides/yr. to marginalize11,500 gun fatalities per year, and 85,000 gunshot survivors per year.

I'm not sure it's working.

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Hey, I already agreed that we should make it illegal to sell guns to kids. What more do you want? The problem doesn't apply to adults as your own cite shows.

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Tom - Jocal is just making noise. His attitude and desires are irrelevant, because he's trying to address a symptom, and not a cause.

 

The fight he's trying to pick was lost before he even got to the playground. I'm tired of beating my forehead against the wall with him, but, will end my participation in this conversation by acknowledging that his attitude has indeed been responsible for changing my mind: I will now, for the first time ever, join the NRA, and enthusiastically engage my elected representatives in promoting pro-2nd positions.

 

I will now start utilizing the CCW permit that I've had for 25+ years, by carrying my handgun, and enjoying the angst that such an act causes to the ignorant grabbers who want to focus on everything EXCEPT the real causes of violence in this country - the 50 years of failed liberal social policies that have gutted poor communities, leaving behind generations of desperate, dependent, disillusioned people with no family, no hope, and no way to express their despair except violence.

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Guy, the real cause of gun violence is the thought process you are peddling.

 

 

Tom Ray, Suicide Cheerleader, Posted Today, 07:36 AM

The problem doesn't apply to adults

 

Tom, if you enjoy learning, you will enjoy this post. It's about ADULT suicide in the USA.

 

STUDY: More Guns Lead To More Suicides

A new study, coauthored by a libertarian-aligned economist, has found strong evidence that the spread of gun ownership around the United States is a threat to public health. Guns, this research suggests, really do cause people to kill themselves when they wouldn’t otherwise.

Gun research is often unfairly tarred as “biased” liberal hackwork, but Alex Tabarrok, one of the study’s two authors, isn’t anyone’s idea of a progressive. Tabarrok teaches at George Mason University, a famously libertarian-inclined economics department. He’s a fellow at the libertarian Mercatus Institute and one of the lead authors of Marginal Revolution, one of the web’s most famous libertarian-inclined blogs.

Lots of studies have investigated the relationship between firearms and homicide but the potential for reverse causality makes this a difficult problem. More homicides in a region, for example, might cause an increase in gun ownership so a positive correlation between guns and homicide doesn’t tell you which is cause and which is effect. Reverse causality is less of a problem for understanding the guns to suicide link because it’s less likely that a rash of suicides would encourage gun ownership.http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/11/firearms-and-suicides-in-us-states.html>

Twelve or more U.S. case control studies have compared individuals who died by suicide with those who did not and found those dying by suicide were more likely to live in homes with guns.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/>

When firearms were accessible, men were nearly four times more likely to commit suicide than when firearms were not accessible, while women were almost three times more likely to be victims of homicide.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-01-access-guns-suicide-homicide.html>

RESULTS:

Results largely indicated that states with any of these laws in place exhibited lower overall suicide rates and suicide by firearms rates and that a smaller proportion of suicides in such states resulted from firearms. Furthermore, results indicated that laws requiring registration and license had significant indirect effects through the proportion of suicides resulting from firearms. The latter results imply that such laws are associated with fewer suicide attempts overall, a tendency for those who attempt to use less-lethal means, or both. Exploratory longitudinal analyses indicated a decrease in overall suicide rates immediately following implementation of laws requiring a license to own a handgun.

CONCLUSIONS:

The results are thus supportive of the potential of handgun legislation to have an impact on suicide rates.

Am J Public Health., (A study by total unknowns. from the University of Southern Mississippi)

US military brass have been spending a lot of time and money looking at how best to reduce the suicide rate among US troops, which has skyrocketed in recent years. They have concluded that it's false to assume that people intent on killing themselves will find a way to do it even if they can't get a gun. In a report to Congress in July, the Military Suicide Research Consortium noted that "Studies demonstrate that method substitution is rare."

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/03/suicides-vs-handgun-background-checks>

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Good, the less slackers and weak minded folks in this country the better....doncha think?....

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In overall suicide rate, the United States ranks roughly in the middle of the pack among industrialized nations.

 

Where do we rank in access to firearms and gun ownership rate among those same nations?

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Tom Ray, where do we find your base of evidence for these statements?

Tom Ray, on 08 Aug 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Gun bans may have some small effect on the rate of self-murder using firearms but seem to have little or no effect on the overall rate of self-murder...The government has no compelling reason to change the method (but not rate) of suicide.

I can offer quite a few academics who offer another opinion. The American Academy of Pediatricians doesn't want even locked guns in our homes. It's no better for grown-ups.

Who is Most Affected by Suicide?

Suicide is the 10th leading cause of death in the U.S. and the fourth leading cause for males under 65.1

For each death, about 45 people attempt and survive. Those who die are more likely to be male, older, and to use more lethal methods.

Pasted from <http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/basic-suicide-facts/who/>

So, an overall 45:1 suicide survival ratio. With an 85% gun lethality ratio, the lethality of firearms itself is a player.

 

Guns most deadly choice in suicide attempts

(Louisville, Ky.) Courier-Journal12:07 a.m. EDT July 21, 2013

While suicide attempts usually stem from temporary setbacks, access to guns makes the equation much more lethal — because those who choose a gun over pills, cutting or hanging almost never survive.

(...) -- More than 38,000 Americans, including roughly 600 Kentuckians, take their lives each year, and those numbers are growing. From 1999 to 2010, suicide rates in Kentucky rose 22 percent to 14.2 deaths per 100,000 residents. Indiana's rate rose 26 percent, to 13.1 per 100,000; the U.S. rate rose 15 percent, to 12.1 per 100,000.

-- Guns are used in about half of U.S. suicides, compared with 64 percent in Kentucky. And suicides involving firearms are fatal 85 percent of the time, compared with less than 3 percent for pills, according to the Harvard Injury Control Research Center

Suicide, Guns, and Public Health

“Means reduction” TOOLS (reducing a suicidal person’s access to highly lethal means) is an important part of a comprehensive approach to suicide prevention. It is based on the following understandings (click on each to learn more):

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Tom - Jocal is just making noise. His attitude and desires are irrelevant, because he's trying to address a symptom, and not a cause.

 

The fight he's trying to pick was lost before he even got to the playground. I'm tired of beating my forehead against the wall with him, but, will end my participation in this conversation by acknowledging that his attitude has indeed been responsible for changing my mind: I will now, for the first time ever, join the NRA, and enthusiastically engage my elected representatives in promoting pro-2nd positions.

 

I will now start utilizing the CCW permit that I've had for 25+ years, by carrying my handgun, and enjoying the angst that such an act causes to the ignorant grabbers who want to focus on everything EXCEPT the real causes of violence in this country - the 50 years of failed liberal social policies that have gutted poor communities, leaving behind generations of desperate, dependent, disillusioned people with no family, no hope, and no way to express their despair except violence.

 

Some of the wisest thoughts in our gun forums have come from you, Guy

You often speak to the internal workings behind human behavior.

You also seem to be genuine in asking for efficacy in gun solutions.

You expect proven policy, you say.

By hiding the facts and fighting gun violence study, the SAF and NRA are responsible for making effective policy impossible.

I wish you all the best, Guy, but effective, causally-related solutions won't be found in your chosen direction.

 

No bondo for the Guyster...yet the chassis of the NRA has the worst body rot in town.

 

 

BoothandJefffieNRAmembers_zpsf6520cf3.pn

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Tom Ray, where do we find your base of evidence for these statements?

Tom Ray, on 08 Aug 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Gun bans may have some small effect on the rate of self-murder using firearms but seem to have little or no effect on the overall rate of self-murder...The government has no compelling reason to change the method (but not rate) of suicide.

 

Right here in this thread. Isn't it convenient keeping all the self-murder talk in one thread?

 

 

 

 

The info that I find is consistent with this very intelligent, evidence-based content:

 

In overall suicide rate, the United States ranks roughly in the middle of the pack among industrialized nations. ..

 

In gun ownership rate, where do we rank against those same countries?

 

You seem to want to compare states with different gun ownership rates but the differences between countries are larger. We should see a pronounced effect!

 

Unless other countries in your study own guns at more or less the same rate we do. If the guns are causing the suicides and we're middle of the pack, we must be middle of the pack in gun ownership rates, right?

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I find it more than fuking hysterical that in four years. JokeAwf has been telling us that 'gun violence ' research and studies have been severely curtailed, dumbed down, under funded or have completely ceased altogether----yet in those same four years he has literally cut & pasted hundreds and hundreds of them.

 

Wierd, innit?.....:lol:

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Tom Ray, where do we find your base of evidence for these statements?

Tom Ray, on 08 Aug 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Gun bans may have some small effect on the rate of self-murder using firearms but seem to have little or no effect on the overall rate of self-murder...The government has no compelling reason to change the method (but not rate) of suicide.

I can offer quite a few academics who offer another opinion. The American Academy of Pediatricians doesn't want even locked guns in our homes. It's no better for grown-ups.

Who is Most Affected by Suicide?

Suicide is the 10th leading cause of death in the U.S. and the fourth leading cause for males under 65.1

For each death, about 45 people attempt and survive. Those who die are more likely to be male, older, and to use more lethal methods.

Pasted from <http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/basic-suicide-facts/who/>

So, an overall 45:1 suicide survival ratio. With an 85% gun lethality ratio, the lethality of firearms itself is a player.

 

Guns most deadly choice in suicide attempts

(Louisville, Ky.) Courier-Journal12:07 a.m. EDT July 21, 2013

While suicide attempts usually stem from temporary setbacks, access to guns makes the equation much more lethal because those who choose a gun over pills, cutting or hanging almost never survive.

(...) -- More than 38,000 Americans, including roughly 600 Kentuckians, take their lives each year, and those numbers are growing. From 1999 to 2010, suicide rates in Kentucky rose 22 percent to 14.2 deaths per 100,000 residents. Indiana's rate rose 26 percent, to 13.1 per 100,000; the U.S. rate rose 15 percent, to 12.1 per 100,000.

-- Guns are used in about half of U.S. suicides, compared with 64 percent in Kentucky. And suicides involving firearms are fatal 85 percent of the time, compared with less than 3 percent for pills, according to the Harvard Injury Control Research Center

Suicide, Guns, and Public Health

Means reduction TOOLS (reducing a suicidal persons access to highly lethal means) is an important part of a comprehensive approach to suicide prevention. It is based on the following understandings (click on each to learn more):

Some please explain to me how pediatricians are experts on fire arm related issues.

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85% lethal means 15% chance of surviving with horrible injuries and probably brain damage.

 

15% is waaay to high for me.

 

In the unlikely event I ever decide to kill myself, I will choose a much more lethal and less messy method.

 

But I think that's a choice for individuals and would not presume to impose my choice on others. If someone is fine with a 15% chance of horrible injuries and brain damage, it's their life.

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Tom - Jocal is just making noise. His attitude and desires are irrelevant, because he's trying to address a symptom, and not a cause.

 

The fight he's trying to pick was lost before he even got to the playground. I'm tired of beating my forehead against the wall with him, but, will end my participation in this conversation by acknowledging that his attitude has indeed been responsible for changing my mind: I will now, for the first time ever, join the NRA, and enthusiastically engage my elected representatives in promoting pro-2nd positions.

 

I will now start utilizing the CCW permit that I've had for 25+ years, by carrying my handgun, and enjoying the angst that such an act causes to the ignorant grabbers who want to focus on everything EXCEPT the real causes of violence in this country - the 50 years of failed liberal social policies that have gutted poor communities, leaving behind generations of desperate, dependent, disillusioned people with no family, no hope, and no way to express their despair except violence.

 

Its agreed! jocal is a shill for the NRA, it seems. Jocal was the single reason I joined the NRA as well after having zero interest in promoting the gun culture. Obama doesn't even bother me as much as jocal does when it comes to gun-grabbiness.

 

I wonder how jocal feels being responsible for not only failing in his quest to address the so-called "gun culture", but is actively promoting it and causing it to grow? Had it not been for fuckawf-boy - the NRA still wouldn't have my $$.

 

Well done Jocal! How much is WLP paying you???

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Some please explain to me how pediatricians are experts on fire arm related issues.

 

 

Because they notice their kids getting shot a lot?

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85% lethal means 15% chance of surviving with horrible injuries and probably brain damage.

 

15% is waaay to high for me.

 

In the unlikely event I ever decide to kill myself, I will choose a much more lethal and less messy method.

 

But I think that's a choice for individuals and would not presume to impose my choice on others. If someone is fine with a 15% chance of horrible injuries and brain damage, it's their life.

Just make it doubly illegal to kill yourself with a gun.

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Some please explain to me how pediatricians are experts on fire arm related issues.

 

Because they notice their kids getting shot a lot?

Pediatricians kids get shot a lot?

 

So we're all experts then?

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He practices on human shaped targets.

 

Practice makes perfect.

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I find it more than fuking hysterical that in four years. JokeAwf has been telling us that 'gun violence ' research and studies have been severely curtailed, dumbed down, under funded or have completely ceased altogether----yet in those same four years he has literally cut & pasted hundreds and hundreds of them.

 

Wierd, innit?..... :lol:

 

This has been asked and answered a few times.

 

Publicly funded studies have great creds with the American people. Federal grants follow study suggestions, and then universities pave the way for fact-based public awareness. The game-changing role models include classic fights with vested interests of coal mining, asbestos, tobacco, automobile production, superfund cleanup, alcohol prohibition, timber over-harvest, and civil rights.

 

Public funding for gun research will be a game changer. It was quite clever (but also devious and deadly) for the gun lobby to stuff the flow of this damaging information. Ex-Sen. Jay Dickey regrets creating such a monster, and publicly admitted his regret for the '96 ban in July 2012.

 

Opening the flow of public funding will be about second base in this game of gun sensibility, IMO. How the present "gun culture" reacts will be pivotal. From what I've seen, the gun nutters will change little, and with their favorite amendment, will become social pariahs.

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He practices on human shaped targets.

 

Practice makes perfect.

 

 

 

Well I bet if you asked a couple of the 'Progressives' here, they'd probably tell you that white cops practice at the range using buckets of fried chicken and watermelons....

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Looks like it's still going up to me ...

 

Oh, and the OP? (date May 14, 2013 @ 10:00 PM)?

Same old JB bullshit, just Homicides, no accidents or suicides. Nothing new here.

 

In the United States, annual deaths resulting from firearms total

2013: 33,636

2012: 33,563

2011: 32,351

2010: 31,672

2009: 31,347

2008: 31,593

2007: 31,224

2006: 30,896

2005: 30,694

2004: 29,569

2003: 30,136

2002: 30,242

2001: 29,573

2000: 28,663

1999: 28,874

 

And yet, despite our high gun ownership rates, we have an average suicide rate.

 

 

Suicide-deaths-per-100000-trend.jpg

 

Must be the guns.

 

But what about the suffocation violence and the poison violence?

 

 

 

All suicides
  • Number of deaths: 41,149
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 13.0
  • Cause of death rank: 10
Firearm suicides
  • Number of deaths: 21,175
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.7
Suffocation suicides
  • Number of deaths: 10,062
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.2
Poisoning suicides
  • Number of deaths: 6,637
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 2.1

 

They add up to 16k people, far more than are killed by the type of gun violence that is inflicted by others. Almost as many as self-inflicted "violence" using guns.

 

We obviously need plastic bag control just to start. How much financial responsibility should plastic bag manufacturers take? Or do people usually use ropes? Are we going after the rope moguls for being merchants of death?

 

 

 

 

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Tom - Jocal is just making noise. His attitude and desires are irrelevant, because he's trying to address a symptom, and not a cause.

 

The fight he's trying to pick was lost before he even got to the playground. I'm tired of beating my forehead against the wall with him, but, will end my participation in this conversation by acknowledging that his attitude has indeed been responsible for changing my mind: I will now, for the first time ever, join the NRA, and enthusiastically engage my elected representatives in promoting pro-2nd positions.

 

I will now start utilizing the CCW permit that I've had for 25+ years, by carrying my handgun, and enjoying the angst that such an act causes to the ignorant grabbers who want to focus on everything EXCEPT the real causes of violence in this country - the 50 years of failed liberal social policies that have gutted poor communities, leaving behind generations of desperate, dependent, disillusioned people with no family, no hope, and no way to express their despair except violence.

 

Jocal has had this effect for me -- now buying my .223 / .556 ammo by the case.

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