Barnyb

Team Japan

Recommended Posts

 

 

 

Can the guy sail?

Bump. Does he own a sailing boat, has he ever entered a regatta?
Doesn't appear so. Why, is the Match now in Lasers?

I thought my point was clear. What's yours?

 

 

My point is that you weren't making a point at all. You were asking a question, to which the answer appears to be no. The relevance of the question isn't clear. There's exactly one critical entry qualification for an AC VRO and prior sailing experience isn't it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The central director dellaccertamento the branch office revenue , Salvatore Raspberry, is reassuring : The Prada Group has paid all taxes due , based on a voluntary act , and they are not going further verification . The legislation provides , however lobbligo communication allautorità judicial . This act, which automatically activates a criminal judicial procedure.

Doesn't appear to be relevant. The BBC piece says:

Miuccia Prada and Patrizio Bertelli are being examined over "the accuracy of certain past tax filings by them as individuals in respect of foreign-owned companies

"As individuals" versus "The Prada Group has paid all taxes due". Not the same thing. Even for the simple affairs of dogwatch, my tax filings and my company's are two distinct matters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

If NZ doesn't fold it would be interesting to see DB and whoever from NZ in the start box .

DB won't be with a new NZ team. His temperament is not suited, unlike BA who has complete focus when his arse is against the wall.

 

 

You misunderstood my post.

 

DB is with Jpn already ,there was no thought of another NZ team. They are having a hard enough time getting the original team to the line much less a second group.

 

My point was if NZ does actually make it to AC 35 it would be interesting to see DB and whoever is at the helm for NZ match up in the start box.

 

DB would certainly have a well warranted of a chip on his shoulder.

 

my point is PB will kick his ass, GA would kick his ass(from what i've heard)..nice guy tho from what i've heard.

nothing wrong with him being an honest man.

 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/68013082/peter-burling-blair-tuke-too-slick-for-world-cup-rivals-in-france

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From a post by Jack G at http://www.cupexperience.com/blog/2015/4/americas-cup-challenger-japans-richest-man-masayoshi-son

 

bold mine,

 

Masayoshi Son later invested in Jack Ma's Chinese internet company, Alibaba, which has become one of the most important internet companies in China and the world. In 2014 there were rumors that Larry Ellison had approached Ma about backing a Chinese America's Cup challenger.

 

americas-cup-masayoshi-son-jack-ma-aliba

 

MASAYOSHI SON WITH ALIBABA FOUNDER JACK MA. PHOTO BLOOMBERG

 

me:

Jack Ma is worth north of $20B, he's second richest Chinese Billionaire and would obviously bring a lot more to the table were he to enter too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Way it looks to me is that LE said to his neighbour "hey why don't you have a go at it for fun? I'll throw in the design for you - shouldn't cost you more than some pocket change for you, say 20 mio $ or so"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Way it looks to me is that LE said to his neighbour "hey why don't you have a go at it for fun? I'll throw in the design for you - shouldn't cost you more than some pocket change for you, say 20 mio $ or so"

 

Bingo, there's a very good chance the conversation went exactly that way.

 

I expect that along with Oracle/NetSuite on LE's wing, we'll see Softbank on the JP entry. IT companies, as opposed to high-fashion companies like LV and Prada, it was already the trend back in AC32 with UITG etc. It's one reason Alibaba might also fit right in, the guy can put his own 'name' on the boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So let's see if I have this right. LE scares off all the VRO's who know something about sailing, who will call him out and might even beat him and instead replaces them with guys who have never been involved with top level sailing in any form and who are happy to accept a generic design that only a foool will believe can actually win the thing! And the OR fanboys think this is good????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So let's see if I have this right. LE scares off all the VRO's who know something about sailing, who will call him out and might even beat him and instead replaces them with guys who have never been involved with top level sailing in any form and who are happy to accept a generic design that only a foool will believe can actually win the thing!

 

YES

 

 

And the OR fanboys think this is good????

 

 

NO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So let's see if I have this right. LE scares off all the VRO's who know something about sailing, who will call him out and might even beat him and instead replaces them with guys who have never been involved with top level sailing in any form and who are happy to accept a generic design that only a foool will believe can actually win the thing! And the OR fanboys think this is good????

 

If some guys are scared and others aren't then.. so what?

 

And if you want argue as you have done, on and on, about OD and 'generic' designs well then with so little design-space how much effort would it take to produce better foils and aero than what LE's team does?

 

We now know the team will include DB, it's rumored ex-Oracle guys will also be in it, it has been rumored that Murray Jones has been a part all along - that's already a large chunk of AC experience.

 

And you still think that, because VRO M-Son won't be on the helm, he won't enter? Or give his team a shot to win?

 

I think the verdict is still out. Perhaps he'll just put a purchased-design stock V1.0 boat out there, perhaps he'll aspire to do better than that and perhaps he'll indicate one way or the other at the coming announcement event.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So let's see if I have this right. LE scares off all the VRO's who know something about sailing, who will call him out and might even beat him and instead replaces them with guys who have never been involved with top level sailing in any form and who are happy to accept a generic design that only a foool will believe can actually win the thing! And the OR fanboys think this is good????

Not quite.

 

You forgot two important factors;

 

1. What happened to all those screaming for cost reductions when having to compete with LE ?

 

2. What happened to all those complaining RC didn't solicit inputs from the challengers ?

 

After all, LR implemented a challnegers committee - had they retained the role of CoR they might still be around. That said, I agree with Xlot - don't think the team has what it takes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All this reminds me of the "indy lights" series. Must be viable, but no one cares. Yawn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They was speculation of two new Asian teams prior, so an Alibaba team bankrolled by Jack Ma would not surprise me, and trying to interest the Chinese public some could be cool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So let's see if I have this right. LE scares off all the VRO's who know something about sailing, who will call him out and might even beat him and instead replaces them with guys who have never been involved with top level sailing in any form and who are happy to accept a generic design that only a foool will believe can actually win the thing! And the OR fanboys think this is good????

 

And your definition of "good" was carrying on with a class that would very likely have stopped TNZ, TF and BAR coming to the start-line and Artemis didn't want either?

 

There comes a point where intellectual honesty requires recognition that people you don't like may have for once done the right thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another 'mentally deranged' steaming pile of smelly stuff dumped on the FP: http://sailinganarchy.com/2015/04/24/oracle-team-everyone/

 

Supposedly, everyone is bought off because quite obviously teams would not be voting in their own best interests.. the really really difficult thing for clean, oops, We, to understand is: Why on earth would teams vote to do that?? So the idiotic conclusion for their answer is, it's because RC is now bankrolling the richest guy in Japan.

 

Yeah... alrighty, then!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So let's see if I have this right. LE scares off all the VRO's who know something about sailing, who will call him out and might even beat him and instead replaces them with guys who have never been involved with top level sailing in any form and who are happy to accept a generic design that only a foool will believe can actually win the thing! And the OR fanboys think this is good????

Chapeau, Simon (same applies to several other recent posts)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So let's see if I have this right. LE scares off all the VRO's who know something about sailing, who will call him out and might even beat him and instead replaces them with guys who have never been involved with top level sailing in any form and who are happy to accept a generic design that only a foool will believe can actually win the thing! And the OR fanboys think this is good????

Chapeau, Simon (same applies to several other recent posts)

 

Since SimonN goes on and one about how One Design the new rule is, then perhaps you could explain to him how LR somehow thought they were $26M ahead in a design game, supposedly with no space to design within? And don't use the AC62 vs AC48 change as the answer, because in that respect the design rules were an almost identically amount open/closed.

 

Just like with ETNZ selling one to LR last time, I see no problem with teams getting a baseline design. They're almost certainly going to use it as just a starting point to their own development and enhancements, only this time the gap to close won't be near as big.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another 'mentally deranged' steaming pile of smelly stuff dumped on the FP: http://sailinganarchy.com/2015/04/24/oracle-team-everyone/

 

 

You know SR, it's not just other people's rear orifices that stink .... Rather fancied Clean's piece actually - unfortunately, he stumbles near the end with the customary "reign" qui pro quo (tsk, tsk, Rennie)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Another 'mentally deranged' steaming pile of smelly stuff dumped on the FP: http://sailinganarchy.com/2015/04/24/oracle-team-everyone/

 

You know SR, it's not just other people's rear orifices that stink .... Rather fancied Clean's piece actually - unfortunately, he stumbled near the end with the customary "reign" qui pro quo (tsk, tsk, Rennie)

 

 

This line is another of the more demented ones, given that the acompanying photo has DB, dressed in black.

 

"The fight for AC35 will be a fight not only for the Cup, but a real quest, with actual good guys and at least one actual bad guy. He wears black."

 

DB is the latest enemy on We's already too-long shit list?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since SimonN goes on and one about how One Design the new rule is, then perhaps you could explain to him how LR somehow thought they were $26M ahead in a design game, supposedly with no space to design within? And don't use the AC62 vs AC48 change as the answer, because in that respect the design rules were an almost identically amount open/closed.

 

Uh ??? Don't make me look back to the AC62, it pains me (you know my opinion that it's mainly, inexcusably LR's fault). The first thing that comes to mind is the daggerboard position, which could have made a huge difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Deano as the bad guy? Wow, wouldn't that be cool?? Could get me interested in this mess again... slightly at least.

 

But when I think about it, wasn't it OTUSA that had "Back in Black" by that Aussie band as their team theme during AC34's dockout shows?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Since SimonN goes on and one about how One Design the new rule is, then perhaps you could explain to him how LR somehow thought they were $26M ahead in a design game, supposedly with no space to design within? And don't use the AC62 vs AC48 change as the answer, because in that respect the design rules were an almost identically amount open/closed.

Uh ??? Don't make me look back to the AC62, it pains me (you know my opinion that it's mainly, inexcusably LR's fault). The first thing that comes to mind is the daggerboard position, which could have made a huge difference.

 

The sweet-spot appeared to be pretty tight between OR's B2 and ETNZ but yes, I'll grant you that the rule - including that facet of it - could in many opinions well have been left more open. But again: the fact that the majority of the teams voted to switch to this boat, only LR excepted, is not any proof for how "LE scares off all the VRO's" (SimonN, above) or that it's a case of (the demented We on the FP) all-bought-off "oracle team everyone."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah - I don't see DB being convincing as a bad guy.

Oh come on. The bad guy always looses. (ooof to easy not to take the cheep shot)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Since SimonN goes on and one about how One Design the new rule is, then perhaps you could explain to him how LR somehow thought they were $26M ahead in a design game, supposedly with no space to design within? And don't use the AC62 vs AC48 change as the answer, because in that respect the design rules were an almost identically amount open/closed.

Uh ??? Don't make me look back to the AC62, it pains me (you know my opinion that it's mainly, inexcusably LR's fault). The first thing that comes to mind is the daggerboard position, which could have made a huge difference.

 

The sweet-spot appeared to be pretty tight between OR's B2 and ETNZ but yes, I'll grant you that the rule - including that facet of it - could in many opinions well have been left more open. But again: the fact that the majority of the teams voted to switch to this boat, only LR excepted, is not any proof for how "LE scares off all the VRO's" (SimonN, above) or that it's a case of (the demented We on the FP) all-bought-off "oracle team everyone."

 

 

The scare-off of VRO has already happened after AC33. No mid-term switch of boat necessary.

Wrong tread by the way, back to Darth Barker...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It's academic, but "The sweet-spot appeared to be pretty tight between OR's B2 and ETNZ": not any more, with adjustable rake rudder stabilizers. Ignoring the rest of your post (what about ETNZ's vote?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the buy off is simply RC sharing IP. And it is interesting:

- Wearing the suit and tie of the ACEA CEO, it's good for business to bring two new teams into the fold.

- Driving the coach boat as Oracle team leader - he just gave away team IP cheap for little profit. Or did he?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The scare-off of VRO has already happened after AC33. No mid-term switch of boat necessary.

 

It's easy to argue, as GG has already pointed out with net-worth numbers, that the VRO's in AC35 are wealthier than those in AC32. It was another tirade by SimonN that admirably went on and on despite being based on such an awfully weak premise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

not great figures. they weren't inflation adjusted and didn't show the cost of a campaign in comparison

 

That said the cup is down one VRO and up one. So on par so far, with 6 being the floated number of teams by the ACEA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They might be wealthier (no surprise given the dramatic global wealth distribution change in recent years), but they are fewer. That is the whole point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That said the cup is down one VRO and up one.

True, M-Son replaces PB. He is also two or three times wealthier, although it's very hard to make the case at this point he'll ever run a campaign quite as serious as LR's past or (now-lost) potential one; but perhaps he's in it for the long term.

 

The collection of private resources backing BAR may be formidable-enough too; and let's not completely forget that apparently a third of ETNZ's $NZ180M last time was private backing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But only one team. And with all that wealth he could of entered anyway which makes you wonder how much he is actually putting in.

 

Are you really commending ACEA for dumbing down the cup to the point that heads that don't know anything about the sport ate comfortable investing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

So let's see if I have this right. LE scares off all the VRO's who know something about sailing, who will call him out and might even beat him and instead replaces them with guys who have never been involved with top level sailing in any form and who are happy to accept a generic design that only a foool will believe can actually win the thing! And the OR fanboys think this is good????

Chapeau, Simon (same applies to several other recent posts)

 

Since SimonN goes on and one about how One Design the new rule is, then perhaps you could explain to him how LR somehow thought they were $26M ahead in a design game, supposedly with no space to design within? And don't use the AC62 vs AC48 change as the answer, because in that respect the design rules were an almost identically amount open/closed.

 

Just like with ETNZ selling one to LR last time, I see no problem with teams getting a baseline design. They're almost certainly going to use it as just a starting point to their own development and enhancements, only this time the gap to close won't be near as big.

 

Didn't Oracle offer a baseline design the last time around? But nobody bought it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't Oracle offer a baseline design the last time around? But nobody bought it...

 

Yes, nobody bought it. Although the intended 'for-puchase' design was actually commissioned and then done by a group in England. I think Andy Claughton was one of the leads, he's with BAR now. Perhaps the re-think was that a design from a proven team might prove more useful; the Peyrons tried to get something going using an OR baseline even last time.

 

IIRC then ETNZ, and anybody else, is also still free to share as much or little as they want to sell or give away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But only one team. And with all that wealth he could of entered anyway which makes you wonder how much he is actually putting in.

 

Are you really commending ACEA for dumbing down the cup to the point that heads that don't know anything about the sport ate comfortable investing.

I think that is the general idea behind a Commercial Cup. Team KFC, Quantum, AT&T, T-Mobile, etc.

 

Like motor racing and pro cycling - the sponsors do it for the publicity. Not for themselves.

 

And now the sponsor cost might be nearing the mark for a pro cycling team. Just need to attract some Italian cement companies, or French rental car companies, that see investing in a raceboat sailing a couple times in Bermuda as a good investment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It's really crazy - the selling point of the AC is its prestige. But ACEA seems bent on losing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Since SimonN goes on and one about how One Design the new rule is, then perhaps you could explain to him how LR somehow thought they were $26M ahead in a design game, supposedly with no space to design within? And don't use the AC62 vs AC48 change as the answer, because in that respect the design rules were an almost identically amount open/closed.

 

 

Just like with ETNZ selling one to LR last time, I see no problem with teams getting a baseline design. They're almost certainly going to use it as just a starting point to their own development and enhancements, only this time the gap to close won't be near as big.

 

 

Stingray,

 

#1 The 62 rule was much more open. Only the wing was 1-design. Get an F^#&in clue. But the issue isn't the design, its the fact it was changed after a year of development after everyone had signed up unanimously to another rule!

 

#2 In the past, the mere fact that a challenger would engage in a practice race with the defender was a big NO NO. Now we have the defender not only sailing with challengers but also providing designs and personnel. The point is for the challengers to take the cup away from the defender! Not for the weak challengers to look pretty and vote against real challengers.

 

I realize that times change, but you are exactly one of those individuals who would have complained about all of this if it were Alinghi making the rules. But now, you roll over and can't figure out why its so hypocritical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's really crazy - the selling point of the AC is its prestige. But ACEA seems bent on losing it.

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

So let's see if I have this right. LE scares off all the VRO's who know something about sailing, who will call him out and might even beat him and instead replaces them with guys who have never been involved with top level sailing in any form and who are happy to accept a generic design that only a foool will believe can actually win the thing! And the OR fanboys think this is good????

Chapeau, Simon (same applies to several other recent posts)

 

Since SimonN goes on and one about how One Design the new rule is, then perhaps you could explain to him how LR somehow thought they were $26M ahead in a design game, supposedly with no space to design within? And don't use the AC62 vs AC48 change as the answer, because in that respect the design rules were an almost identically amount open/closed.

 

Just like with ETNZ selling one to LR last time, I see no problem with teams getting a baseline design. They're almost certainly going to use it as just a starting point to their own development and enhancements, only this time the gap to close won't be near as big.

 

Didn't Oracle offer a baseline design the last time around? But nobody bought it...

 

yes, but was it a foiler or a flopper?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Since SimonN goes on and one about how One Design the new rule is, then perhaps you could explain to him how LR somehow thought they were $26M ahead in a design game, supposedly with no space to design within? And don't use the AC62 vs AC48 change as the answer, because in that respect the design rules were an almost identically amount open/closed.

 

 

 

Just like with ETNZ selling one to LR last time, I see no problem with teams getting a baseline design. They're almost certainly going to use it as just a starting point to their own development and enhancements, only this time the gap to close won't be near as big.

 

Stingray,

 

#1 The 62 rule was much more open. Only the wing was 1-design. Get an F^#&in clue. But the issue isn't the design, its the fact it was changed after a year of development after everyone had signed up unanimously to another rule!

 

#2 In the past, the mere fact that a challenger would engage in a practice race with the defender was a big NO NO. Now we have the defender not only sailing with challengers but also providing designs and personnel. The point is for the challengers to take the cup away from the defender! Not for the weak challengers to look pretty and vote against real challengers.

 

I realize that times change, but you are exactly one of those individuals who would have complained about all of this if it were Alinghi making the rules. But now, you roll over and can't figure out why its so hypocritical.

#1 We could argue all day about how 'much' more open the AC62 Rule was, compared to the AC48 Rule. I based my comment on the similarity on public quotes from several who are involved, including iirc the design writer Pete Melvin in his interview posted at PressureDrop.

 

#2 I don't see the defender providing designers, personnel, or money to anybody. Is there startup value to teams who take a baseline design? For sure but like last time the ultimate Challenger will likely take their own evolutionary path since it's the most logical way to outdo the party you want to beat. Wrt sailing against each other, so close to the Match with the latest dates in Bermuda, yes I'm a little uncomfortable with that. For one thing, it may remove some of the first-race suspense come the Match. But otoh, these things do work both ways in that Challs get to check in with the Defender to see if they are in the ballpark or not; as well as vise versa. And, what we saw last time - so vividly - is that improvements by both can continue well into the Match, ie: still quite far past that Qualifier stage.

 

Re: times change: Yes, the AC is a lot different compared to the relatively stable IACC and 12 eras. Radically different, even. But the one big thing missing from AC34 was great competition among the Challengers and this time I honestly think there's a great chance of it. Yes, that tighter Rule will be a factor in it but wind variability will be somewhat more interesting too than what we saw on SF Bay and so sailors and gear choices and such will play a bigger role too.

 

Would I design AC35 this way? Not exactly (another AC SF in AC72 V2's is my ideal) but RC, frustrating as he can be, could be onto a good format here and I'm willing to follow the progression and to see if it works out well.

 

Fairness is important to me and this looks winnable, by several teams.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Fairness is important to me

 

 

But not as important as my job fluffing TUSA 24/7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the buy off is simply RC sharing IP. And it is interesting:

- Wearing the suit and tie of the ACEA CEO, it's good for business to bring two new teams into the fold.

- Driving the coach boat as Oracle team leader - he just gave away team IP cheap for little profit. Or did he?

 

 

"There are a couple of teams that will be joining now from Asia. Frankly it wasn't a financial barrier (that prevented them in the past) it was 'where do I start with this huge engineering challenge without the world expertise?'."

 

 

IM demanded this IP from the AC34 Challengers (those capable of designing a non-fatal boat), it costs TUSA nothing to pass it on again now...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Fairness is important to me

 

 

But not as important as my job fluffing TUSA 24/7

Am happy to 'fluff' for anyone else that impresses me and do, with regularity. It's a silly fascination, a distraction from a real job that affords me the means to even go attend and buy silly hats occasionally, including my two TNZ ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The scare-off of VRO has already happened after AC33. No mid-term switch of boat necessary.

 

It's easy to argue, as GG has already pointed out with net-worth numbers, that the VRO's in AC35 are wealthier than those in AC32. It was another tirade by SimonN that admirably went on and on despite being based on such an awfully weak premise.

As usual, spin and bullshit from the king of apologists.

 

You seem totally unable to grasp very simple and indisputable facts. Before AC33, it was usual to see 6 or 7 teams that were started by individuals, known as "team owners" who had sufficient wealth to either fully fund a team or at very least, provide the a significant start up fund. For AC34 and 35, we have 3 teams in that position. You cannot change those facts, only how you interpret those facts. Considering that other areas of sailing which require wealth are, in fact, booming, it would suggest that the AC is no longer attractive to those types of people. But more than that, we can see that in AC34 and 35, people who in the past wopuld have been considered wealthy enough to have run a team, even if it was with additional sponsorship, have entered and left, including 2 COR's.

 

Even if we move away from the whole wealthy owner debate, the interest shown by sponsors in the AC is at an all time low. While there might have been a potential excuse of the economic climate back for AC34, that wears a bit thin now. Even a team that had previously been excellent at getting sponsorship, ETNZ, is now struggling compared with in the past.

 

Spin that anyway you want, but any reasonable person would say that there has to be a major problem with the event for all that to have happened.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The scare-off of VRO has already happened after AC33. No mid-term switch of boat necessary.

It's easy to argue, as GG has already pointed out with net-worth numbers, that the VRO's in AC35 are wealthier than those in AC32. It was another tirade by SimonN that admirably went on and on despite being based on such an awfully weak premise.

 

As usual, spin and bullshit from the king of apologists.

 

You seem totally unable to grasp very simple and indisputable facts. Before AC33, it was usual to see 6 or 7 teams that were started by individuals, known as "team owners" who had sufficient wealth to either fully fund a team or at very least, provide the a significant start up fund. For AC34 and 35, we have 3 teams in that position. You cannot change those facts, only how you interpret those facts. Considering that other areas of sailing which require wealth are, in fact, booming, it would suggest that the AC is no longer attractive to those types of people. But more than that, we can see that in AC34 and 35, people who in the past wopuld have been considered wealthy enough to have run a team, even if it was with additional sponsorship, have entered and left, including 2 COR's.

 

Even if we move away from the whole wealthy owner debate, the interest shown by sponsors in the AC is at an all time low. While there might have been a potential excuse of the economic climate back for AC34, that wears a bit thin now. Even a team that had previously been excellent at getting sponsorship, ETNZ, is now struggling compared with in the past.

 

Spin that anyway you want, but any reasonable person would say that there has to be a major problem with tat ent for all that to have happened.

 

And the simple fact that you continue to sidestep is the fact that AC32 was heavily subsidized by Valencia which you also sidestepped with the promise of a payout based on the subsidy. This is simple math even you can understand if you pull your head out the sand, and what has happened to Valencia as a result ?

 

If you want to talk facts, don't be selective - be realistic for a change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

So let's see if I have this right. LE scares off all the VRO's who know something about sailing, who will call him out and might even beat him and instead replaces them with guys who have never been involved with top level sailing in any form and who are happy to accept a generic design that only a foool will believe can actually win the thing! And the OR fanboys think this is good????

Chapeau, Simon (same applies to several other recent posts)

 

Since SimonN goes on and one about how One Design the new rule is, then perhaps you could explain to him how LR somehow thought they were $26M ahead in a design game, supposedly with no space to design within? And don't use the AC62 vs AC48 change as the answer, because in that respect the design rules were an almost identically amount open/closed.

 

Just like with ETNZ selling one to LR last time, I see no problem with teams getting a baseline design. They're almost certainly going to use it as just a starting point to their own development and enhancements, only this time the gap to close won't be near as big.

 

 

 

They may have spent 26 mil on design but how much of that was for the boat ?

 

The fist big chunk of change had to go to the wardrobe department.

 

Have you seen those shoes ? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

But only one team. And with all that wealth he could of entered anyway which makes you wonder how much he is actually putting in.

 

Are you really commending ACEA for dumbing down the cup to the point that heads that don't know anything about the sport ate comfortable investing.

I think that is the general idea behind a Commercial Cup. Team KFC, Quantum, AT&T, T-Mobile, etc.

 

Like motor racing and pro cycling - the sponsors do it for the publicity. Not for themselves.

 

And now the sponsor cost might be nearing the mark for a pro cycling team. Just need to attract some Italian cement companies, or French rental car companies, that see investing in a raceboat sailing a couple times in Bermuda as a good investment.

cycling has a year round calendar of historic events the character of which it not only cherishes but defended as a cornerstone of what makes it's events great. It's season is lynch pinned by a an event whose historic mystique create sp much commercial value that teams will enter the rest of the season just to get access to it.

 

The equivalent would be the AC teams competing in Cowes Week, RdR, StH, Key West, Fastnet, TdFV, etc etc using visually similar equipment for each every year for the same sponsorship outlay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

It's really crazy - the selling point of the AC is its prestige. But ACEA seems bent on losing it.

+1
+2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

It's really crazy - the selling point of the AC is its prestige. But ACEA seems bent on losing it.

+1
+2

 

+3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

The scare-off of VRO has already happened after AC33. No mid-term switch of boat necessary.

It's easy to argue, as GG has already pointed out with net-worth numbers, that the VRO's in AC35 are wealthier than those in AC32. It was another tirade by SimonN that admirably went on and on despite being based on such an awfully weak premise.

 

As usual, spin and bullshit from the king of apologists.

 

You seem totally unable to grasp very simple and indisputable facts. Before AC33, it was usual to see 6 or 7 teams that were started by individuals, known as "team owners" who had sufficient wealth to either fully fund a team or at very least, provide the a significant start up fund. For AC34 and 35, we have 3 teams in that position. You cannot change those facts, only how you interpret those facts. Considering that other areas of sailing which require wealth are, in fact, booming, it would suggest that the AC is no longer attractive to those types of people. But more than that, we can see that in AC34 and 35, people who in the past wopuld have been considered wealthy enough to have run a team, even if it was with additional sponsorship, have entered and left, including 2 COR's.

 

Even if we move away from the whole wealthy owner debate, the interest shown by sponsors in the AC is at an all time low. While there might have been a potential excuse of the economic climate back for AC34, that wears a bit thin now. Even a team that had previously been excellent at getting sponsorship, ETNZ, is now struggling compared with in the past.

 

Spin that anyway you want, but any reasonable person would say that there has to be a major problem with tat ent for all that to have happened.

 

And the simple fact that you continue to sidestep is the fact that AC32 was heavily subsidized by Valencia which you also sidestepped with the promise of a payout based on the subsidy. This is simple math even you can understand if you pull your head out the sand, and what has happened to Valencia as a result ?

 

If you want to talk facts, don't be selective - be realistic for a change.

 

You are nearly as good a master of spin as Spinray himself! You want facts? The problem is, facts show how selective you are with your information and how irrelevant it is. First,of the teams with wealthy owners, only 2 were new for AC32. 5 had competed before. Next, the time of entering, nobody would have know that there was a chance of a payout. To suggest that wealthy individuals entered AC32 because they thought they would get a payout is simply stupid. Finally, if you check, for AC30, 31 and 32, there were 7 teams with wealthy owners. If it were about the money from Valencia, we should have seen an increase. So, what we have is more spin that ignores facts and tries to use selective data from one single edition of the Cup to try to explain away a trend that was there well before that edition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Another 'mentally deranged' steaming pile of smelly stuff dumped on the FP: http://sailinganarchy.com/2015/04/24/oracle-team-everyone/

 

You know SR, it's not just other people's rear orifices that stink .... Rather fancied Clean's piece actually - unfortunately, he stumbled near the end with the customary "reign" qui pro quo (tsk, tsk, Rennie)

 

 

This line is another of the more demented ones, given that the acompanying photo has DB, dressed in black.

 

"The fight for AC35 will be a fight not only for the Cup, but a real quest, with actual good guys and at least one actual bad guy. He wears black."

 

DB is the latest enemy on We's already too-long shit list?

 

 

Yeah but Deano's new colors are not black. duh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

“Ideally, no question you’d keep Luna Rossa in the game,” Coutts said. “But I think we will definitely see other teams coming in because of the boat change, and I can tell you there’s a Japanese team coming in, and when you see who the owner of that team is, you would debate whether it’s bigger or smaller than Luna Rossa.”

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/sports/for-americas-cup-more-challenges-than-challengers.html?_r=0

Talk about a smoke screen. It doesn't matter whether they are bigger or smaller than LR. All that matters is that if they get a Japanese team instead of LR, this is what is happening

 

1. Swapping a very experienced AC team for one with zero experience

2. Swapping a team with very significant experience of foiling cats for one that has never done it.

3. Swapping a team with lots of experience of wing sails for one that has never used one.

5. Swapping a team that has done 18 months of research into foils and aerodynamics for one that has no experience at it.

 

So, to sum up, we swap a seriously experienced team that was a potential winner for one with no experience who would need a miracle to win. Even if they were able to recruit lots of LR's personnel, creating a team is a lot more than that and even with the wing and platform designs being provided, they are starting a long way behind the other teams.

 

RC is so full of shit I find it hard to accept that even he believes what he says. It's back to the days when he was trying to tell us you could compete in AC34 for under $10m :lol:

 

I guess the announcement blows this post out of the water.

 

Maybe RC isn't as full of shit as you think.

 

No, this proves exactly the points made. Look at the facts

 

1. Son has never been involved in a large sailing campaign, never mind the AC.

2. They are going to use a Japanese skipper and, if you know anything about Japan, you can bet most of the crew will be Japanese. This means little to no foiling experience.

3 How many Japanese sailors have experience with wings, or even if they have an overseas wing trimmer, how many have sailed boats with wings?

4. They are reliant on OR for design input. All the lead players have been working on aero and foil stuff for a long time. How do these guys catch up?

 

The bottom line is simple. We have seen a top class team that was up with the game, if not ahead, leave and it has been replaced by a team with zero experience who will just make up the numbers. if you believe this team will do anything other than just make up the numbers, i would like some of whatever you are smoking :lol:

 

A Japanese guy won one of the races at the recent (foiling) Moth Worlds in Australia. Guess he gets the gig?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's really crazy - the selling point of the AC is its prestige. But ACEA seems bent on losing it.

I think they've already pissed it away, and the participating teams are debasing themselves.

 

But that's just my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

The scare-off of VRO has already happened after AC33. No mid-term switch of boat necessary.

It's easy to argue, as GG has already pointed out with net-worth numbers, that the VRO's in AC35 are wealthier than those in AC32. It was another tirade by SimonN that admirably went on and on despite being based on such an awfully weak premise.

 

As usual, spin and bullshit from the king of apologists.

 

You seem totally unable to grasp very simple and indisputable facts. Before AC33, it was usual to see 6 or 7 teams that were started by individuals, known as "team owners" who had sufficient wealth to either fully fund a team or at very least, provide the a significant start up fund. For AC34 and 35, we have 3 teams in that position. You cannot change those facts, only how you interpret those facts. Considering that other areas of sailing which require wealth are, in fact, booming, it would suggest that the AC is no longer attractive to those types of people. But more than that, we can see that in AC34 and 35, people who in the past wopuld have been considered wealthy enough to have run a team, even if it was with additional sponsorship, have entered and left, including 2 COR's.

 

Even if we move away from the whole wealthy owner debate, the interest shown by sponsors in the AC is at an all time low. While there might have been a potential excuse of the economic climate back for AC34, that wears a bit thin now. Even a team that had previously been excellent at getting sponsorship, ETNZ, is now struggling compared with in the past.

 

Spin that anyway you want, but any reasonable person would say that there has to be a major problem with tat ent for all that to have happened.

 

And the simple fact that you continue to sidestep is the fact that AC32 was heavily subsidized by Valencia which you also sidestepped with the promise of a payout based on the subsidy. This is simple math even you can understand if you pull your head out the sand, and what has happened to Valencia as a result ?

 

If you want to talk facts, don't be selective - be realistic for a change.

 

You are nearly as good a master of spin as Spinray himself! You want facts? The problem is, facts show how selective you are with your information and how irrelevant it is. First,of the teams with wealthy owners, only 2 were new for AC32. 5 had competed before. Next, the time of entering, nobody would have know that there was a chance of a payout. To suggest that wealthy individuals entered AC32 because they thought they would get a payout is simply stupid. Finally, if you check, for AC30, 31 and 32, there were 7 teams with wealthy owners. If it were about the money from Valencia, we should have seen an increase. So, what we have is more spin that ignores facts and tries to use selective data from one single edition of the Cup to try to explain away a trend that was there well before that edition.

 

How much did Rita spend on Valencia that EB did not have to spend to host there ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

But only one team. And with all that wealth he could of entered anyway which makes you wonder how much he is actually putting in.

 

Are you really commending ACEA for dumbing down the cup to the point that heads that don't know anything about the sport ate comfortable investing.

I think that is the general idea behind a Commercial Cup. Team KFC, Quantum, AT&T, T-Mobile, etc.

 

Like motor racing and pro cycling - the sponsors do it for the publicity. Not for themselves.

 

And now the sponsor cost might be nearing the mark for a pro cycling team. Just need to attract some Italian cement companies, or French rental car companies, that see investing in a raceboat sailing a couple times in Bermuda as a good investment.

cycling has a year round calendar of historic events the character of which it not only cherishes but defended as a cornerstone of what makes it's events great. It's season is lynch pinned by a an event whose historic mystique create sp much commercial value that teams will enter the rest of the season just to get access to it.

 

The equivalent would be the AC teams competing in Cowes Week, RdR, StH, Key West, Fastnet, TdFV, etc etc using visually similar equipment for each every year for the same sponsorship outlay

Defending the character - what a concept.

 

And it's also true that the governing body, ICU, defends the character of the equipment as well.

 

Disallowing crazy shit like recumbents or "superman" posture frames that would likely make races much much faster. The general philosophy seems to be: keep it real for Everyman at the expense of technological advancement and speed.

 

In that sense - even though nobody loves them more than I - an argument can be made for simpler boats in the AC.

 

It seems fairly likely that the complexity of the design rules has scared away competition.

 

OTOH - it would be pretty cool to watch a TdF with anything goes crazy fast super bikes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How much did Rita spend on Valencia that EB did not have to spend to host there ?

 

What has that got to do with the 7 wealthy owners who had teams at AC30 and 31? Or for the other wealthy team owners that have made up the bulk of those involved with the Cup since it began? Stop bringing up AC32 to explain away long term pattern from well before then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who among these seriously V-VROs is or was going to be racing on their AC35 boat in any capacity at all? PB, LE, TT, Matteo, or MSan? None of the private BAR backers seems too likely either, so what's your point again? That Shosh, the useless Team China and the broke +39 aren't still in it, a decade later? Because I say 'Geez, so what?'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who among these seriously V-VROs is or was going to be racing on their AC35 boat in any capacity at all? PB, LE, TT, Matteo, or MoSon? None of the private BAR backers seems too likely either, so what's your point again? That Shosh and +39 aren't still in it, a decade later? Because I say 'Geez, so what?'

Where did I say race? I clearly stated that up until LE/RC brought in the cats, owners regularly took to the water in their AC boats. Most simply sat in the seat at the back and did nothing, but they were on the water, on board and had a grandstand seat. Some even sailed the boats in training, but all were on the water. We now have none of the owners on the boats at any stage, other than maybe a single joy ride over the course of a campaign (as in LE's case). Those are facts.

 

So the question is whether there is a link between that and the low number of wealthy owners running teams. if you are dismissing that, then we need to look at alternatives, such as the AC losing its prestige, the wealthy owners not liking the format, or they don't like LE, or they don't trust LE, or they don't like sailing against cheats or whatever else you want to think up.

 

Whatever the reason, it is crystal clear that the wealthy are no longer attracted to the AC in the way they were before AC34. The facts speak for themselves. And with the rich getting richer, we do not see this pattern in other areas that they spend money, so you cannot blame the economy. Simply, the wealthy have lost interest in the AC and with that, participation has plummeted. During the same time, sponsorship has also plummeted, but again we have a pretty good indication that for the right format, it is there.

 

Spin it however you want, the vast majority are placing the blame well and truly at the current defender's feet. Just look at the balance of the press, or should I say lack of balance. Whereas during AC34, there was probably significantly more favorable press towards LE/RC/GGYC/OR, what we are now seeing is almost universal condemnation of what is going on. You usually are in raptures if you manage to find a positive article these days! There is even less support for the current defender than we ever saw for EB/SNG/Alinghi, which i personally would have thought was impossible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still maintain that you have a weak premise in your

"Whatever the reason, it is crystal clear that the wealthy are no longer attracted to the AC in the way they were before AC34. The facts speak for themselves."

The merits of it are debatable but the facts, including with the richest B in Japan MSan signing on, point to seriously vast wealth being the rule instead of the exception for the AC35 entered teams.

 

But I understand your still-persistent, apparently never-ending, argument to both still boost your hero Ernesto, while simultaneously trying to concoct attacks on the guys who kicked his ass six ways from Sunday. And ergo, your latest post in support of that agenda

 

" the wealthy owners not liking the format, or they don't like LE, or they don't trust LE, or they don't like sailing against cheats"

 

Again, if you're talking serious money then, with the exception of PB and (for understandable and other reasons) EB, the actual facts argue otherwise.

 

You had another diatribe about cutting costs by making sailors sail for the glory of the flag instead of for competitive salaries; please leave me out of that event too, everyone would have silly names and wear silly clothes, and put on silly aires about 'prestige' like the ridiculous Bruno T - a guy that LE and others must have serious guffaws about for his insignificance, and the best sailors would still be headed to where the big wealth is - which would in that scenario be elsewhere and might make your fantasy a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You had another diatribe about cutting costs by making sailors sail for the glory of the flag instead of for competitive salaries; please leave me out of that event too, everyone would have silly names and wear silly clothes, and put on silly aires about 'prestige' like the ridiculous Bruno T - a guy that LE and others must have serious guffaws about for his insignificance, and the best sailors would still be headed to where the big wealth is - which would in that scenario be elsewhere and might make your fantasy a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

When all is said and done, I wouldn't be surprised to find BT looked more kindly upon in history than LE or RC.

 

LV was a loyal sponsor of the CSS through the LVC for well over 20 years, spanning eight events, with the notable exception of the DoG challenges.

 

Had AC33 been held according to EB's vision, LV would not have been a part of it, in protest. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find past threads where many here saluted BT for that stance, including from yourself.

 

But now, BT is an insignificant and ridiculous figure to be scoffed at? For having his own opinions about an event he'd been a part of for many years, as both a sailor and a sponsor? For being upset at the debacle of the CSS during AC34, and not being comfortable with the direction of the Cup under LE's reign?

 

LE may feel that he can do without that kind of sponsor, but they certainly don't grow on trees.

 

The VRO thing may be arguable, but when you take off your rose-colored glasses and drop the Pollyanna routine, you've gotta take a moment to make sure your vision is straight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You had another diatribe about cutting costs by making sailors sail for the glory of the flag instead of for competitive salaries; please leave me out of that event too, everyone would have silly names and wear silly clothes, and put on silly aires about 'prestige' like the ridiculous Bruno T - a guy that LE and others must have serious guffaws about for his insignificance, and the best sailors would still be headed to where the big wealth is - which would in that scenario be elsewhere and might make your fantasy a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You were saying the contrary when he criticized EB and opened a bottle of Champagne at the end of AC33.

 

You may not agree with him , I don't either, but that is a silly statement. He will surely have a better place in AC books than GGYC members.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BT did play a role, about four decades ago when desperately trying to steer a French boat competitively. But the real LV money guy AC-wise was Yves Carcelle and (rest his soul) he died last year after an already-decreasing influenece or interest even in AC32. And if you look up Yves' obits, the AC is berely even mentioned compared to his LV business acument in other areas. The really big family, the Arnaults of LVMH, apparently cared little to nothing about the AC.

 

BT's big problem is the was-always-there but now very-fast-increasing insiginifcance into nothingness in anything AC. I should have written above that he is "a guy that LE and others must WOULD have serious guffaws about for his insignificance IF BT WERE EVER BROUGHT TO THEIR ATTENTION" an attention idea which to me seems exceedingly unlikely. His opinion means nothing, times have moved on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

How much did Rita spend on Valencia that EB did not have to spend to host there ?

What has that got to do with the 7 wealthy owners who had teams at AC30 and 31? Or for the other wealthy team owners that have made up the bulk of those involved with the Cup since it began? Stop bringing up AC32 to explain away long term pattern from well before then.

 

So what did the AC32 valencia payout, subsidized by Rita, have to do with the entrants ?

 

You claim nothing, I call BS on our argument as you only move the goal posts. Nice try, fail

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's funny that there are only 2 people left on this forum that try to defend everything that LE/RC/the defender. How times have changed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

..... everyone would have silly names and wear silly clothes, and put on silly aires about 'prestige' like the ridiculous Bruno T - a guy that LE and others must have serious guffaws about for his insignificance, ....

It's funny. When BT attacked EB, you used him as evidence of all that as wrong with EB. Now BT denounces the current situation, he is ridiculous. It's just like when you used Bob Fisher's comments as evidence that LarryVision/RusVision was good. Now you think his views no longer have any relevance. The pattern is pretty obvious to everybody.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

How much did Rita spend on Valencia that EB did not have to spend to host there ?

What has that got to do with the 7 wealthy owners who had teams at AC30 and 31? Or for the other wealthy team owners that have made up the bulk of those involved with the Cup since it began? Stop bringing up AC32 to explain away long term pattern from well before then.

 

So what did the AC32 valencia payout, subsidized by Rita, have to do with the entrants ?

 

You claim nothing, I call BS on our argument as you only move the goal posts. Nice try, fail

 

SWS, as you come back with this ridiculous argument, could you try to answer what your never did.

1) how much SF did pay for AC34 ?

2) why did SF city refuse to host the event again ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spin it however you want, the vast majority are placing the blame well and truly at the current defender's feet. Just look at the balance of the press, or should I say lack of balance. Whereas during AC34, there was probably significantly more favorable press towards LE/RC/GGYC/OR, what we are now seeing is almost universal condemnation of what is going on.

 

Not true as far as the UK goes. BAR is getting a regular stream of positive coverage. My concern is that it's over-promising. 250,000 to watch ACWS, apparently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

..... everyone would have silly names and wear silly clothes, and put on silly aires about 'prestige' like the ridiculous Bruno T - a guy that LE and others must have serious guffaws about for his insignificance, ....

 

Wow, rarely read anything meaner. And this about someone who was so much respected and regarded significant when he was arguing against EB. How times, alliances and style can change. Truly AC, in every bad respect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I should have written above that he is "a guy that LE and others must WOULD have serious guffaws about for his insignificance IF BT WERE EVER BROUGHT TO THEIR ATTENTION" an attention idea which to me seems exceedingly unlikely. His opinion means nothing, times have moved on.

Obviously BT is not present in this AC however, even though he is a french dandy, if you had met him, you would not say he is "insignificant".

 

But again why insulting and despising what you loved and congratulated before ? just because you don't agree with him anymore ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

BT's big problem is the was-always-there but now very-fast-increasing insiginifcance into nothingness in anything AC. I should have written above that he is "a guy that LE and others must WOULD have serious guffaws about for his insignificance IF BT WERE EVER BROUGHT TO THEIR ATTENTION" an attention idea which to me seems exceedingly unlikely.

 

That's a charmless remark on a figure who was significant over a long period, whether you agree with his current views or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whatever the reason, it is crystal clear that the wealthy are no longer attracted to the AC in the way they were before AC34. The facts speak for themselves. And with the rich getting richer, we do not see this pattern in other areas that they spend money, so you cannot blame the economy. Simply, the wealthy have lost interest in the AC and with that, participation has plummeted. During the same time, sponsorship has also plummeted, but again we have a pretty good indication that for the right format, it is there.

 

OK Simon, I agree with all that (with the possible exception of the last 2 clauses). So what would you do starting Monday 27th to turn this around? Whose number are you going to call and what are you going to say?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

..... everyone would have silly names and wear silly clothes, and put on silly aires about 'prestige' like the ridiculous Bruno T - a guy that LE and others must have serious guffaws about for his insignificance, ....

Wow, rarely read anything meaner. And this about someone who was so much respected and regarded significant when he was arguing against EB. How times, alliances and style can change. Truly AC, in every bad respect.

 

+ 1

The red pants are a tradition from old breton sailors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^

Interesting, TC. But I always thought they belonged to the NYYC/Newport scene instead. Would red be for visibility, like flared legs for ease of slipping them off?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Whatever the reason, it is crystal clear that the wealthy are no longer attracted to the AC in the way they were before AC34. The facts speak for themselves. And with the rich getting richer, we do not see this pattern in other areas that they spend money, so you cannot blame the economy. Simply, the wealthy have lost interest in the AC and with that, participation has plummeted. During the same time, sponsorship has also plummeted, but again we have a pretty good indication that for the right format, it is there.

 

OK Simon, I agree with all that (with the possible exception of the last 2 clauses). So what would you do starting Monday 27th to turn this around? Whose number are you going to call and what are you going to say?

 

Unfortunately, you cannot put the gene back in the bottle for AC35. The die is cast. My fear is that there is only one team left that would revitalise the Cup as it needs to be. I think that if BAR or AR won, we would see more of the same wrt one design, small boats with teams primarily "owner/managed" by the sailors. And the real problem is having watched things like the GC32's , the AC45 turbosand now the Gunboat G4, I fail to see how the AC48's are going to be the same quantum leap we saw with the AC72's. After watching the AC45's, the AC72's left everybody in shock and awe. I simply cannot see that happening this time and as soon as that happens, it is game over because you can get 85% of the AC experience for less than 5% of the cost, plus the person with the money can actually play. With the jet set glamour gone as well, why would you want to be part of the AC? It's going to take a whole new direction, something only TNZ would deliver, and I really cannot bring myself to support them as long as Grumpy is there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

..... everyone would have silly names and wear silly clothes, and put on silly aires about 'prestige' like the ridiculous Bruno T - a guy that LE and others must have serious guffaws about for his insignificance, ....

Wow, rarely read anything meaner. And this about someone who was so much respected and regarded significant when he was arguing against EB. How times, alliances and style can change. Truly AC, in every bad respect.

 

+ 1

The red pants are a tradition from old breton sailors.

 

 

 

Although red pants is a traditional garb of Brittany sailors, I doubt very much the NYYC's attire, including blue blazer and straw hat, has anything even remote to do with Brittany :).

 

Much more probable are the clues given here: http://sabotagetimes.com/style/the-origin-of-red-fcking-trousers.

 

Money quote: "those in US Prep School or East Coast Ivy League circles, wore red jeans and chinos almost as a uniform, often with a blue blazer, deck shoes and a button down shirt"

 

Now that sounds much closer to potential members of the NYYC than the rugged Brittany fishermen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"With the jet set glamour gone as well, why would you want to be part of the AC?"

That's some of what I'm arguing above. That some seriously wealthy people ~are~ wanting to be part of this new format AC. People who are much higher-end customers than even LV would flog handbags to. They don't need that jet set glamour in this race, they already have it in abundance wherever else they choose.

 

Yes, BT played a role back in the day. That time has passed, and he's understandably disappointed, but whatever influence he had has been eroding for a long time already and the passing of Yves C was likely the end of LV's involvement even if the boats were mammoth monohulls and 'prestgiously' expensive to build and campaign.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, you cannot put the gene back in the bottle for AC35.

Precisely. And given that is the case, I believe the switch to the AC48 and the qualifiers in Bermuda are the right thing to make best of a bad job. That doesn't mean I think we should have

arrived here in the first place. And yes my support for BAR is guarded because I agree, he's also drunk deep of the WSL kool-aid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

..... everyone would have silly names and wear silly clothes, and put on silly aires about 'prestige' like the ridiculous Bruno T - a guy that LE and others must have serious guffaws about for his insignificance, ....

Wow, rarely read anything meaner. And this about someone who was so much respected and regarded significant when he was arguing against EB. How times, alliances and style can change. Truly AC, in every bad respect.

 

 

So, ditch anybody who is not singing the new tune of the America's Cup?

 

This is really hard to believe and understand. Bruno is not just some pr hack for LV, the man raced as a helmsman and put together what was the most successful AC sponsorship ever via LV. The winners of the LV Cup are a who's who of the AC era since 1983. And they stepped-up to the plate to help keep the AC 'brand' going while the court case was raging, which helped many of the same sailors keep their paying gigs too. So this is no fly-by-night operation to be slamming, many better still be thanking BT & LV for helping to save their hides.

 

SR, I am surprised by your comments. Whether you agree with him or not, BT deserves respect for what he brought to the Cup. He is sad, like many of us, to see the AC stripped away from what it was supposed to be and not some made-for-TV side show.

 

Could the new AC be exciting? Sure. Does it need to be formatted like a game show? No.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are you surprised HHN92? SR has proven 17,000x over that he will say anything, besmirch any reputation, without personal qualm, being either a TUSA slave or whore - just a question of compensation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My comments relate not to what BT achieved as a sailor but more about a 'prestige' image that he, and LV, set about to propagate. I simply don't relate to the LV Ball type events, the red pants crowd, or much relate to the rich college kid summer amateur sailors of Newport during the 70's, good spirits though they likely were.

 

For me the game has moved on, especially with what I consider the Step Up into high technology multihulls, with its more forward-looking vision, and yes also catering more to the desires of more- professional sailors rather than to just the $Boss egos. More toward a Red Bull than an LV, a younger outlook instead of some romantic return to the monopolists era of the 1930s, suits me just fine. Give me foils over hats with peacock feathers.

 

This debate has been going on since probably the early 80's and iirc then BT argued about hating sponsors like Coke and Ford even back then. It was all about an elitist brand image that, personally, I found was completely inconsequential to the actual boats and the races.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think those rich guys from Newport should organize match racing in TP52s, and see it they can't get a little bit of their prestige back now that wankers have taken over the AC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think those rich guys from Newport should organize match racing in TP52s, and see it they can't get a little bit of their prestige back now that wankers have taken over the AC.

 

That's in a way what they do, take their money to big boat events and not the AC anymore. QED.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I simply don't relate to the LV Ball type events, the red pants crowd, or much relate to the rich college kid summer amateur sailors of Newport during the 70's, good spirits though they likely were.

 

It was all about an elitist brand image that, personally, I found was completely inconsequential to the actual boats and the races.

I am not against a new AC but why dissing all what made its success ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

If NZ doesn't fold it would be interesting to see DB and whoever from NZ in the start box .

 

DB won't be with a new NZ team. His temperament is not suited, unlike BA who has complete focus when his arse is against the wall.

You misunderstood my post.

 

DB is with Jpn already ,there was no thought of another NZ team. They are having a hard enough time getting the original team to the line much less a second group.

 

My point was if NZ does actually make it to AC 35 it would be interesting to see DB and whoever is at the helm for NZ match up in the start box.

 

DB would certainly have a well warranted of a chip on his shoulder.

If Barker is with Team Japan, then his failed AC career is complete.

 

He would be following in the footsteps of another NZ choker and 100% AC failure....

 

Chris Dickson (KZ7. Team Nippon, and Tag huer}

 

The resembelence is uncanny.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^TC Well for one reason, take a read of the comments at almost any of the NZ news-related sites any time AC news happens. Those comments are overwhelming about 'no taxpayer money' primarily because of the stated opinion that it's an elitist sport. Has LV style elitism created a good impression, or one that turns a majority of people off?

 

I suppose there's room for high end brands in pro sailing and Omega, Volvo etc certainly make sense - good on them for the support. It's at least something most people find normal instead of off-putting for being ultra-snobbish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites