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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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4 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

WOLF concept model + foils + seats:

WOLF +foils+ seats    11-9-17 003.JPG

WOLF +foils+ seats    11-9-17 001.JPG

Couple of LEGO people, a little tiny card table and a tiny chess board and your set.

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WOLF and MPX 12(first version of Fire Arrow)-----

WOLF and little Fire Arrow   11-26-17 004.JPG

WOLF and little Fire Arrow   11-26-17 006.JPG

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1 hour ago, Doug Lord said:

WOLF and MPX 12(first version of Fire Arrow)-----

WOLF and little Fire Arrow   11-26-17 004.JPG

WOLF and little Fire Arrow   11-26-17 006.JPG

I’m sorry, the same photos again, why?

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Same as what?! Never been posted before-the WOLF is different than any other picture of it-amazing you can't tell.........Eye problems?

rotating wing mast, "chainplates",forward seat fairings , aft seat seals/drains,  mast step, seat back cosmetization, cockpit drains

WOLF mast ,foils, seats 11-25-17 002.JPG

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32 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

Same as what?! Never been posted before-the WOLF is different than any other picture of it-amazing you can't tell.........Eye problems?

rotating wing mast, "chainplates",forward seat fairings , aft seat seals/drains,  mast step, seat back cosmetization, cockpit drains

WOLF mast ,foils, seats 11-25-17 002.JPG

Yep, same old shitter.

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2 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

Same as what?! Never been posted before-the WOLF is different than any other picture of it-amazing you can't tell.........Eye problems?

rotating wing mast, "chainplates",forward seat fairings , aft seat seals/drains,  mast step, seat back cosmetization, cockpit drains

WOLF mast ,foils, seats 11-25-17 002.JPG

It’s a fucking model Doug, get it working and then worry about the cosmetization

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The model is a unique concept model(not a sailing model) of a 15.5' sport trimaran . It's only important what it looks like-the technology has already been proven several times over.

MPX Fire Arrow-First Full Flying Foiling on video-7-24-14 009 (2).JPG

MPX Fire Arrow.jpg

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10 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

The model is a unique concept model(not a sailing model) of a 15.5' sport trimaran . It's only important what it looks like-the technology has already been proven several times over.

MPX Fire Arrow-First Full Flying Foiling on video-7-24-14 009 (2).JPG

MPX Fire Arrow.jpg

By who?

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2 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

The model is a unique concept model(not a sailing model) of a 15.5' sport trimaran . It's only important what it looks like-the technology has already been proven several times over.

MPX Fire Arrow-First Full Flying Foiling on video-7-24-14 009 (2).JPG

MPX Fire Arrow.jpg

You know, most folks skip the model part and design on the computer these days.

Tell you what, how about a nice pat on the back for building a shiny toy? 

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WOLF concept model--- sail patterns for study(217 sq.ft.-upwind)  :

WOLF concept-- 2 001.JPG

WOLF concept-- 2 002.JPG

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On 9/29/2016 at 12:19 PM, Doug Lord said:

Many in this thread earlier had doubts that the Fire Arrow configuration would "work" despite the fact that in its last test on July 24th ,2014 the foil system worked 100% perfectly. Well, now there is proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that the central feature of the Fire Arrow system-a lifting foil on the daggerboard in combination with an ama UptiP foil works and works well.In fact what they say about it could have come from the design and build log here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/high-performance-mpx-foil-self-righting-trimaran-test-model-36058-159.html

I think it is a huge accomplishment for Maserati and proves what I have said for over 6 years that this basic configuration is uniquely suited to a foiling trimaran and has tremendous advantages. This is only the beginning -as more people recognize how good the system is, more and more tris will use the configuration-great for foiling, great for trimarans!!

----

Now, I've got to get a 14-16' version of the boat built-using either uptip foils or Welbourn foils(or both for testing).

 

 

 

Watch the video above very carefully and you can see the foil on the daggerboard-this is so cool I can hardly stand it!

More: http://maserati.soldini.it/

 

What Maserati says:

First* trimaran in the world to fly with effortless stability on the horizontal loading-bearing surface of her centerboard, Maserati Multi70 brilliantly puts into practice Guillaume Vernier and his Team’s idea of flying on three resting points using a load-bearing centerboard, L-foil and a rudder instead of the two rudders and single foil adopted on America’s Cup cats.
Giovanni Soldini and his Team are engaged in a new challenge as they endeavour to turn Maserati Multi70 into the first ocean-going flying trimaran. An ambitious project that spans not just Guillaume Vernier’s excellent work (he worked on the modifications to her appendages) but also over 4.000 nautical miles of sailing clocked up by the Team this summer.
The straight central daggerboard plays a revolutionary role in this new flying trim as the horizontal load bearing surface at its end generates lift, raising the boat out of the water. “When Maserati Multi70 rises up on her lateral foil and rudder, the daggerboard wing acts as a third resting point – the central and largest one”.
Tests in wind of 40 knots have demonstrated that Maserati Multi70 is now much more stabilized and able to fly in conditions unthinkable before. Safely tackling also big seas.



* Wrong-the Fire Arrow was the first trimaran in the world to fly on a daggerboard foil in combo with uptip foils on each ama.

 

Fire Arrow pictures by Dan Burke and Doug Lord:

sg216b.jpg

 

 

do2ftk.jpg

Proof 2016!  And now, 2018, there is Gitana XVII, and Banque Populaire-all using the basic elements of Fire Arrow Foil System-with more to come.

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Douggie - Please just go away and play with your FaRt ArOuNd toy.  You are an embarrassment even to old white men from Florida

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Fire Arrow--- main foil dual  wand assembly-allows takeoff in 5mph wind:

Dual Wand Control--Rudder 002.jpg

MPX--new, shorter, adjustable wands 010.JPG

Wand system-final 001.JPG

MPX_Foiling--_Foil_Assist-Flying_Main_hull_Over_Powered_009 - Copy.JPG

MPX Fire Arrow-First Full Flying Foiling on video-7-24-14 013.JPG

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Fire Arrow Ama foil with wash-in(not wash-out)  utilizing iFLAP  :

This helps the foil work well throughout the speed range especially with low speed takeoff and allows the foil to work, in some respects, like a wand controlled foil but with no moving parts......

See pictures "A" and "B" below that represent two very different load and speed conditions-a perfect illustration of the automatic altitude control of this foil. Furthermore, in light and medium conditions the foils have never needed adjustment after being initially set up.

MPX i-flap-frnt view port foil low speed takeoff waterline.jpg

MPX i-flap-frnt view port foil --Twist (1).jpg

MPX i-flap-frnt view port foil waterline high speed.jpg

MPX Fire Arrow-First Full Flying Foiling --ama altitude--A.jpg

MPX Fire Arrow-First Full Flying Foiling---ama altitude B.jpg

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

Fire Arrow Ama foil with wash-in(not wash-out)  utilizing iFLAP  :

This helps the foil work well throughout the speed range especially with low speed takeoff and allows the foil to work, in some respects, like a wand controlled foil but with no moving parts......

See pictures "A" and "B" below that represent two very different load and speed conditions-a perfect illustration of the automatic altitude control of this foil. 

MPX i-flap-frnt view port foil low speed takeoff waterline.jpg

MPX i-flap-frnt view port foil --Twist (1).jpg

MPX i-flap-frnt view port foil waterline high speed.jpg

MPX Fire Arrow-First Full Flying Foiling --ama altitude--A.jpg

MPX Fire Arrow-First Full Flying Foiling---ama altitude B.jpg

 

 

same photo for the last 2+ years. Sad. Bigly.

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Fire Arrow Main and Rudder foils:   since the last , most successful test of the boat in July 2014 a lot of study went into the foils including the main and rudder foils. Both the daggerboard and rudder were shortened 6" (1.7' to scale) to reduce wetted surface. The daggerboard was tricky since the foil had to be opened up and the flap pushrod disconnected, then the  daggerboard was cut and lengthened. Finally the pushrod was lengthened, the board closed up, sealed and  cosmetisized. Then the mainfoil flap was lengthened and small experimental endplates were added to the flap.

Note the short and long partial span mainfoil flaps.

MPX Fire Arrow -experimental flap endplates-8-26-14 002.JPG

MPX Foil Junction 002.JPG

MPX Foil Junction 006.JPG

Fire Arrow mainfoil.JPG

MPX finished foil mods painted 006-short flap.JPG

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It's always good for a laugh to see how Doug does the exact opposite of what is considered state of the art. Take the rudder. If you look at almost every development on rudder foils, they have pushed them further and further aft compared with the vertical. This is for 2 reasons. The lesser one is that it increases "wheelbase" which provides more stable flight but by far the biggest is that it greatly reduces control problems due to flow separation/ventilation. I have to conclude that to experience these problems you need to get foiling properly and achieve some speed, which Doug has never done with this model, so he has never experienced the issues.

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The Super Foiler doesn't have foils on the main hull they have twin rudders with foils in the floats. Their foils look nothing like the crap from doug, perhaps they know something that doug doesn't.

 

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1 hour ago, Team_GBR said:

It's always good for a laugh to see how Doug does the exact opposite of what is considered state of the art. Take the rudder. If you look at almost every development on rudder foils, they have pushed them further and further aft compared with the vertical. This is for 2 reasons. The lesser one is that it increases "wheelbase" which provides more stable flight but by far the biggest is that it greatly reduces control problems due to flow separation/ventilation. I have to conclude that to experience these problems you need to get foiling properly and achieve some speed, which Doug has never done with this model, so he has never experienced the issues.

Actually, my foils are based on the work Mark Drela did with Decavitator, foil below. At it's fastest Fire Arrow would be operating at Reynolds numbers very close to Decavitator. The shape of foils is greatly affected by the speed they are intended to work at so foils on a scale model of Super Foiler or of an AC 50 would look a lot different on the model.  Since Fire Arrow is a scale model of a 19.5 ft. foiler , the model foils and the fullsize foils would be somewhat different particularly in thickness/chord ratio. Planform would be very similar.

As to "footprint" your comment was more nonsense: whether the rudder and board are aft or forward on the foil, as long as both are the same the footprint wouldn't change!-

Decavitator foil from Dr. Mark Drela on boatdesign.net 10/27/13 :

It is currently in storage at MIT. On 27 October 1991, Mark Drela set the human powered world-record speed with Decavitator of 18.5 knots (21.3 mph; 34.3 km/h) over a 100-meter race course on the Charles River in Boston, Massachusetts.

Fire Arrow has done 2 times wind speed in initial testing- about 10mph in  a 5mph wind the very first time she foiled.

My 56" LOA by 72" F3 did 18mph max reefed in a 22mph wind about 18 years ago and over 2.4 times windspeed in a 5 mph breeze. She had extremely thin foils...... 

 

Decavitator foil-mark drela 10-27-13 bd-net foiler design.jpg

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53 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

Actually, my foils are based on the work Mark Drela did with Decavitator, foil below. At it's fastest Fire Arrow would be operating at Reynolds numbers very close to Decavitator. The shape of foils is greatly affected by the speed they are intended to work at so foils on a scale model of Super Foiler or of an AC 50 would look a lot different on the model.  Since Fire Arrow is a scale model of a 19.5 ft. foiler , the model foils and the fullsize foils would be somewhat different particularly in thickness/chord ratio. Planform would be very similar.

As to "footprint" your comment was more nonsense: whether the rudder and board are aft or forward on the foil, as long as both are the same the footprint wouldn't change!-

Decavitator foil from Dr. Mark Drela on boatdesign.net 10/27/13 :

It is currently in storage at MIT. On 27 October 1991, Mark Drela set the human powered world-record speed with Decavitator of 18.5 knots (21.3 mph; 34.3 km/h) over a 100-meter race course on the Charles River in Boston, Massachusetts.

 

So you are quoting a 1991 design as your reference, on a boat that is far lighter and where the foils in question are mounted on the front of the boat. Even more telling, in later developments of the concept, the wings were moved back in relation to the verticals.

Quote

 

Fire Arrow has done 2 times wind speed in initial testing- about 10mph in  a 5mph wind the very first time she foiled.

 

How was that measured? An estimate from your video. You are so full of shit.

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1 hour ago, Doug Lord said:

Actually, my foils are based on the work Mark Drela did with Decavitator, foil below. At it's fastest Fire Arrow would be operating at Reynolds numbers very close to Decavitator. The shape of foils is greatly affected by the speed they are intended to work at so foils on a scale model of Super Foiler or of an AC 50 would look a lot different on the model.  Since Fire Arrow is a scale model of a 19.5 ft. foiler , the model foils and the fullsize foils would be somewhat different particularly in thickness/chord ratio. Planform would be very similar.

As to "footprint" your comment was more nonsense: whether the rudder and board are aft or forward on the foil, as long as both are the same the footprint wouldn't change!-

Decavitator foil from Dr. Mark Drela on boatdesign.net 10/27/13 :

It is currently in storage at MIT. On 27 October 1991, Mark Drela set the human powered world-record speed with Decavitator of 18.5 knots (21.3 mph; 34.3 km/h) over a 100-meter race course on the Charles River in Boston, Massachusetts.

Fire Arrow has done 2 times wind speed in initial testing- about 10mph in  a 5mph wind the very first time she foiled.

My 56" LOA by 72" F3 did 18mph max reefed in a 22mph wind about 18 years ago and over 2.4 times windspeed in a 5 mph breeze. She had extremely thin foils...... 

 

Decavitator foil-mark drela 10-27-13 bd-net foiler design.jpg

How are you calculating the Reynolds numbers Doug?

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Well, you weren't gone long!!

For water:  speed in mph X Chord in ft.X 121,000

or for quick reference, table p35 vellinga's book

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49 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

So you are quoting a 1991 design as your reference, on a boat that is far lighter and where the foils in question are mounted on the front of the boat. Even more telling, in later developments of the concept, the wings were moved back in relation to the verticals.

How was that measured? An estimate from your video. You are so full of shit.

Latest development of decavitator foils(record setting) :

Decavitator rudder foil showing offset.pdf

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12 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

Well, you weren't gone long!!

For water:  speed in mph X Chord in ft.X 121,000

or for quick reference, table p35 vellinga's book

I’m restraining myself from you polluting other threads, this however is fair game.

How are you using Froude numbers in all your calculations?

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12 minutes ago, mad said:

I'm restraining myself from you polluting other threads, this however is fair game.

How are you using Froude numbers in all your calculations? 

And I was thinking good riddance! Don't let the door hit you in the ass......

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1 minute ago, Doug Lord said:

And I was thinking good riddance! Don't let the door hit you in the ass......

Feel like answering the question?

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why I waste my time with a complete ass like you beats the hell out of me...

I don't -generally- use Froude #'s in design work. I use the old "speed-length ratio"(1.34 X square root of the wl length) or as modified in Vellingas book- 1.5 instead of 1.34 for monohulls. Of course, if for any reason I needed a Froude number I would just multiply the SLR X .30........

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