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shaggybaxter

Construction of a Pogo 12.50

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Our build has started on our Pogo 12.50.

.

In the hope it is of interest to some of you as well as just me. I thought I'd post some of the pictures and info on the build as we progress.

The selection criteria was we wanted something that was:

  • fast. I've done my time in the IOR stuff, I wanted something that could plane easily, and bugger the handicap rating.
  • comfortable..ish. Yes i want my wife to be comfortable, but I didn't want head linings and trimmings everywhere, mainly for serviceability.
  • safe. Can I get that as unsinkable please?
  • shorthanded capable. Yes and no, this was one of those decisions that caused the most angst. As the boat will have some corporate guest duties, we have gone for the dual wheels rather than a tiller.
  • Cat A rated.

Our short-mid term aim is for the Qld coastal stuff in year 1, working up to S2H in year 2.

We will have a learning curve to surmount, the Pogo is a bit different to our current IOR era symmetrical roly poly rides, with no backstay, no traditional vang, square top main, asymetrical kites, etc etc.

 

One challenge is the build is happening on the other side of the globe.

This is ultimate faith in your builder time, the good thing is we have that faith!

So, without further ado, our first pics, this is the part of the bulkheads being infused. This one is for the starboard rear cabin. Really it is the toilet/ technical area.

post-28484-0-30856700-1430523884_thumb.jpg

 

You walk through the toilet area to a rear cabin, this is an area I plan to use for storage mostly.

Pic of what it should look like on completion.

 

post-28484-0-00887300-1430527470_thumb.jpg

 

The foam is 20 mm and comes in denser grades where used around the structural areas like rudder posts , chainplates etc. The denser foam is surprisingly hard, you can't dint it with your fingernail even though it looks like normal foam.

And what the finished product should look like hopefully(edit...with dual wheels though) ..

That reminds me, I have to work out the hull colors (its a strip) next, which I am not good at. Any suggestions please let me know.

 

post-28484-0-00925200-1430527595_thumb.jpg

 

Hope you guys find it interesting! We're a bit like expectant fathers at the moment!

SB

 

 

 

.

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A bit more...

This is the longitudinal upper members being prepped for infusion.......

 

post-28484-0-59585900-1430528026_thumb.jpg

 

And the lowers after infusing....

 

post-28484-0-59256900-1430528066_thumb.jpg

 

I have to sort out the interior color as a priority, not the the hull color. This makes sense as the hull color strips are actually done as a removable sticker. Good for when its time to "repaint" I suppose.

 

Options on the power outlets: hmmm...I think no more than the 1 x 240V outlet in the technical area, and 2 x 12V in the front and 1 x 12V in the port rear cabin? I don't want loads of 240v cabling, but IPad and phone chargers I can never seem to have enough....but keep it simple, keep it simple.

 

SB

 

 

 

 

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Mmm.. I have a dilemma on the dual wheels. This is a shot from the back, showing a sister ship setup.

 

post-28484-0-49646400-1430529672_thumb.jpg

 

To me , from this angle the pedestal and wheel selection, and design, look in the right proportion and fit the the boat.

So far, all good.

 

But viewed from the front, this doesn't look so pleasing to the eye. Something looks out of place.

 

post-28484-0-26066900-1430529690_thumb.jpg

 

I am thinking two things..

 

Option 1: Cover the black boss of the wheel post. Is it as simple as a nice white cover over the boss that would correct it?

Option 2; Change the wheel design. Does it need something like this instead?

 

post-28484-0-16950700-1430530054_thumb.jpg

 

 

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option 3: tiller

Read post #1 carefully.

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Why not use 12v iPhone chargers?

 

Seems pointless and inefficient to go from 12v DC to 240v AC then back to 5v DC

 

In face why hard wire an inverter at all? Most good toys can be run from 12v these days anyway.

 

Cheers

 

SW

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Yup! You can build in cell phone and tablet chargers by modifying ultra-cheap car charger adaptors. Look for the ones that have as much plastic as possible; the cheap plated metal covers will rust in a week. If you've got reading lights in bunks, it is easy to fit one of these chargers in parallel with the light wiring.

12v-to-5v_USB_charger.jpg

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The single tiller set up which they used from the Class 40, really compromises the cockpit.

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So what is it about 'corporate guest duties' that leads to wheels instead of a tiller?

We take clients out, and you have certain clientele that love the experience but know not the first thing about a sail boat. Give them a wheel and they're grinning like they've won the lotto, whereas a tiller they are plain scared of. I know it sounds a bit money-centric, which it probably is, but if it gets people liking sailing and I keep happy customers, its a sacrifice I can make.

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Why not use 12v iPhone chargers?

 

Seems pointless and inefficient to go from 12v DC to 240v AC then back to 5v DC

 

In face why hard wire an inverter at all? Most good toys can be run from 12v these days anyway.

 

Cheers

 

SW

 

Good point Seaway, good food for thought.

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black wheel in the sun can get very hot

I would go with white for that reason alone

esp if the boat will go near tropical waters

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You get some quite cool looking multiple socket things for cars. My wife has one that is made for the drink cup/can hole, and has phone and other type of socket. Would be easy to build in either on a vertical or horizontal surface, like outboard of the chart table.

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Why not use 12v iPhone chargers?

 

Seems pointless and inefficient to go from 12v DC to 240v AC then back to 5v DC

 

In face why hard wire an inverter at all? Most good toys can be run from 12v these days anyway.

 

Cheers

 

SW

 

 

No, they can't.

 

PC:s / Laptops usually on 19-20 V

 

Phones, tablets, pads ... on USG voltage ~ 5 V.

 

All other voltages are conversion.

Conversion means losses.

 

/J

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12v to 5v is no drama.

Not just phones these days but many tablets, even powerful Windows one will charge from 12v socket.

12v to 19v for laptops etc needs a convertor, many of which are dodgy, so buy the best.

Converting 12v to 240v (or 110v US) then back to 19v is losing more.

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Very cool, keep the updates coming.

 

Are you goiing with Incidences sails, or local

 

This was another tough call. I have a great local sail maker, but I am going with Incidence for the first set,

This was mainly due to me being a bit conservative, several aspects of the 12.50 rig and sails will be new to us, and I am conscious of the time it will take to absorb all this and dial it all in.

I just didn't want to be sitting there all the time thinking "is it the sails" whilst learning how to make it go,

I don't have many Pogo's/"insert similar design" near me to swap notes with I am afraid. There is Krakatoa II, a 2008 model Open 40 in Sydney I know of, but that's about it. Does anybody know of any others I'm not aware of?

Here's my scratchlist of the rig and sail options that are different compared to my existing boat:

No backstay/runners.

Vang's kinda weird.

Furler gennaker and solent.

Babystay and staysail

Aso.

Do sailors all have just some masochistic desire to keep learning new things? :unsure:

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12v to 5v is no drama.

Not just phones these days but many tablets, even powerful Windows one will charge from 12v socket.

12v to 19v for laptops etc needs a convertor, many of which are dodgy, so buy the best.

Converting 12v to 240v (or 110v US) then back to 19v is losing more.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused now as to why converting twice for the DC outlets?.

If I go with 12V outlets in the cabins, and just have say 1 x 220/240V in the technical area (for tools when on the dock tinkering etc), wouldn't it only be the 240V outlet that is inverted? The 12V outlets would just hang off the 12V battery network, wouldn't they?

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Shaggy,

what keel option? Fixed or lifting?

Definitely lifting. We need it around here if you want to mosey into a marina or deserted beach. We look with envy at some of the deep water marinas in Sydney.

Its not unheard of at QCYC to be sitting on your keel (6-7ft) on a big low (that's a horrible feeling, downright unnatural)

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We had JP3 titanium wheels on the Archambault, the bare grey metal blends in a lot more than black or white

 

Nice find, thx for that rantifarian. Was yours like the one on the right? (I note there are single and dual spoke versions)

 

post-28484-0-15219700-1430730681.jpg

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Shaggy,

what keel option? Fixed or lifting?

Definitely lifting. We need it around here if you want to mosey into a marina or deserted beach. We look with envy at some of the deep water marinas in Sydney.

Its not unheard of at QCYC to be sitting on your keel (6-7ft) on a big low (that's a horrible feeling, downright unnatural)

 

did you have a discussion about the relative performance? Is there much of a loss with the lifting (swing) keel?

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Very cool, keep the updates coming.

 

Are you goiing with Incidences sails, or local

 

This was another tough call. I have a great local sail maker, but I am going with Incidence for the first set,

This was mainly due to me being a bit conservative, several aspects of the 12.50 rig and sails will be new to us, and I am conscious of the time it will take to absorb all this and dial it all in.

I just didn't want to be sitting there all the time thinking "is it the sails" whilst learning how to make it go,

I don't have many Pogo's/"insert similar design" near me to swap notes with I am afraid. There is Krakatoa II, a 2008 model Open 40 in Sydney I know of, but that's about it. Does anybody know of any others I'm not aware of?

Here's my scratchlist of the rig and sail options that are different compared to my existing boat:

No backstay/runners.

Vang's kinda weird.

Furler gennaker and solent.

Babystay and staysail

Aso.

Do sailors all have just some masochistic desire to keep learning new things? :unsure:

Pretty sure Krakatoa is in Westhaven at the moment. She is the earlier version, no.

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Shaggy,

what keel option? Fixed or lifting?

Definitely lifting. We need it around here if you want to mosey into a marina or deserted beach. We look with envy at some of the deep water marinas in Sydney.

Its not unheard of at QCYC to be sitting on your keel (6-7ft) on a big low (that's a horrible feeling, downright unnatural)

 

did you have a discussion about the relative performance? Is there much of a loss with the lifting (swing) keel?

 

 

You can't sail with the keel up, it is purely for motoring in and out, parking up. Down, the draft is 3mtrs (10ft) so the swing keel is the deeper out of the two, the fixed keel is only 2.2mtr (7+ft)

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Thanks,

Was thinking of the performance of the two keels - conventional wisdom is that the bulb is more efficient, but is that really the case? I know that Finot has put a lot of effort into the efficiency of the swing version

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Sorry ColinG, bit slow. The swing keel was recommended for the racing, but we didn't go into detail. I remember being distracted at the time as I couldn't get over not having a backstay (insert horrible crashy-bangy thoughts here), but that got you the evilly big roachy main....sigh..emotions suck when you're buying a boat.

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Ok, help me out here guys. For the measly sum of another $600 (Aus, which is about $10US, Euro, Kiwi or Samoan ringbark at the moment) you can change up to a Volvo 17x12 3 blade folding prop, standard is a 2 blade folding. I am considering it only for motoring into running tides/dirty weather, not for cruising.

 

However, is this offset too much by a higher effective drag of the 3 blade?

I don't want to ruin what it is good at. Thoughts?

 

post-28484-0-94772700-1430740252_thumb.jpg

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"emotions suck when you're buying a boat"

 

But why else would you do it?

 

No backstay does takes some getting used to, just don't look too carefully at the (reverse) bend in the top mast downwind under load!!

 

Sorry, probably added to your nightmares :) My mast was probably a little under specced, I am sure you won't have that thrill...

 

More seriously, interesting they recommended the swing keel for racing. I have always been a fan as apart from the increase in draft, which IRC hates, it seemed a nice efficient shape, with the added bonus of the safety factor of the hydro release if you hit something.

Good luck with the build. Keep the updates coming.

Colin

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We had JP3 titanium wheels on the Archambault, the bare grey metal blends in a lot more than black or white

 

Nice find, thx for that rantifarian. Was yours like the one on the right? (I note there are single and dual spoke versions)

 

attachicon.gifimage 2.jpg

Yep, the ones on the right. Very nice to use, nice texture in your hands, except when it's cold, they are fucking freezing to hold without gloves

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Ok, help me out here guys. For the measly sum of another $600 (Aus, which is about $10US, Euro, Kiwi or Samoan ringbark at the moment) you can change up to a Volvo 17x12 3 blade folding prop, standard is a 2 blade folding. I am considering it only for motoring into running tides/dirty weather, not for cruising.

 

However, is this offset too much by a higher effective drag of the 3 blade?

I don't want to ruin what it is good at. Thoughts?

 

attachicon.gif3bladefolded.jpg

Go with the lower sailing drag 2 bladed. 2-3 blade difference into snotty weather, foul tides won't be that much.

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"Go with the lower sailing drag 2 bladed. 2-3 blade difference into snotty weather, foul tides won't be that much."

Thx IB, 1 for the 2 blade!

 

Edit: So what is a 3 blade folding good for? Cruising?

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Back to the 12v / 240v and inverter question.

 

Yes, you are right of course. 12v sockets off the ship's batteries, and inverter to 240v for any 240v stuff you need to run.

 

The area of question was for a laptop, form example, that wants 19v. Best to use a 12v to 19v adaptor, rather than using your regular 240v laptop power supply.

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"Go with the lower sailing drag 2 bladed. 2-3 blade difference into snotty weather, foul tides won't be that much."

Thx IB, 1 for the 2 blade!

 

Edit: So what is a 3 blade folding good for? Cruising?

In my mind, two things.

 

Depending on tip clearance, you can get a lot of vibration from a 2 bladed prop. 3 bladed props generally have shorter blades and more clearance.

 

3 blades normally have more blade area and lower pitch, so are more efficient in putting thrust into the water. If you are marginal on HP or interested in best efficiency when motoring, then a 3 blade works better. Sounds like you would prefer the higher sailing performance so 2 blade makes sense.

 

I'm not a fan of any fixed prop.

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Krakatoa ll is in Auckland. Been in NZ for a few years. Won the recent Solo Trans Tasman. Another Class 40 Hupane is also in Auckland. This is the Verdier Ross and Cambell Field did half of the Global Race on when called Buckley systems.

I had the Volvo 3 bladed prop and thoroughly recommend it. Essential if you are doing any family / corporate / delivery work. Gets you home against 25kn, and backed into any marina berth without issues. OK - its not as smooth as a Gori but it's 1/3 the price.

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HI Spin,

No, no carbon, my wallet and wife would both divorce me.

Vinylester/epoxy yes, I plan on keeping it a while, so the vinylester, whilst not cheap, was worth it to me.

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Is keel depth adjustable in the manufacturing stage?

Waterloo bay is shallow and three m is getting pretty close to the bottom. (depth is around 3.1m at .5m tide I think)

2.8m draft would be more comfortable around Moreton Bay and would not make much difference to the righting moment on such a beamy boat.

Great boat BTW.

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HI bs,

No, looking at the engineering work that goes into the keel I think the overall boat trim would suffer in multiple ways if we lopped a foot off it. And of course, there is the Hammo, B2G and S2H races where I want every inch of that 10ft.

What was that old chestnut about trade-offs again???

I agree regards depth, I was out doing some survey work at low tide a few weekends ago, and it is marginal inside the islands, approx anything west of the Manly leads is danger danger territory.

If we are playing round the cans, the inside of the three islands will take careful watching of the depth log, but that's only casual round the bay racing anyway, not like there's sheep stations on the line.

Just have to use wring more speed out of her to offset the short tighter tacks inside of St Helena!

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What an awesome boat. What is te expected build time?

Is it considered bad form to ask what the budget is for the completed boat?

On my old IOR boat the only significant difference I saw between the 2 and 3 blade prop is that the 3 blade had more bite in reverse. I went back to the 2 blade and sold the 3.

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So what is it about 'corporate guest duties' that leads to wheels instead of a tiller?

We take clients out, and you have certain clientele that love the experience but know not the first thing about a sail boat. Give them a wheel and they're grinning like they've won the lotto, whereas a tiller they are plain scared of. I know it sounds a bit money-centric, which it probably is, but if it gets people liking sailing and I keep happy customers, its a sacrifice I can make.

 

 

Most people I take out to learn to sail seem to find a tiller makes the boat go the other way than they expected.

 

Usually it goes like.

 

"A bit more into the wind please."

 

"Other way... OTHER WAY"

 

"OK, GYBING..."

 

"We're goin' over captain..."

 

At least on a laser 2 a crash gybe is a laugh, I suspect it would be less so on your new Pogo.

 

And nice boat *drool*.

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Wait a second- is this boat going to be berthed at RQYS? I'd love to see it when it's completed on one of my thrice-annual trips to Manly.

Hawaii, yes mate, it is.

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What an awesome boat. What is te expected build time?

Is it considered bad form to ask what the budget is for the completed boat?

On my old IOR boat the only significant difference I saw between the 2 and 3 blade prop is that the 3 blade had more bite in reverse. I went back to the 2 blade and sold the 3.

Hi sn,

Build time is 6 months, the waiting list before construction was another 6 months, but I wasn't too worried about that, nothing good ever comes easy.

How much..... when I am reading a similar build or project, I always want to know this too, so I understand why the question. Now that it has been asked of me, I am kind of torn as to how to respond!

Pogo do publish their price list on the internet, so.....put it this way, with our options list, if you splonked a million Aus on the table, you couldn't buy two of them!

Thanks for the feedback, that's another vote for the 2 blader, I was leaning this way anyway, and whilst I like the 3 blade for cruising/motoring, I don't want any drag, so 2 blade it is!

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So what is it about 'corporate guest duties' that leads to wheels instead of a tiller?

We take clients out, and you have certain clientele that love the experience but know not the first thing about a sail boat. Give them a wheel and they're grinning like they've won the lotto, whereas a tiller they are plain scared of. I know it sounds a bit money-centric, which it probably is, but if it gets people liking sailing and I keep happy customers, its a sacrifice I can make.

 

 

Most people I take out to learn to sail seem to find a tiller makes the boat go the other way than they expected.

 

Usually it goes like.

 

"A bit more into the wind please."

 

"Other way... OTHER WAY"

 

"OK, GYBING..."

 

"We're goin' over captain..."

 

At least on a laser 2 a crash gybe is a laugh, I suspect it would be less so on your new Pogo.

 

And nice boat *drool*.

 

+ 1000

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Our 3 blade gori is a nice bit of gear, strong thrust, low drag when folded, and never an issue going between folded, forward, overdrive or reverse.

Since it is not my money I would thoroughly recommend it, and when you are crossing the wide bay bar into 25 knots on the way home from a race it will seem like money well spent

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HI All,

The hull layup is about to start, here is the hull mold being prepped ready for commencement.

 

post-28484-0-57502700-1430897450_thumb.jpg

 

This is what it should look like pretty soon!

 

post-28484-0-80658000-1430898004_thumb.jpg

 

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Thx Rantifarian,

What boat size mate? Is it because you're RM/horsepower is enough to offset the drag, or the Gori is just designed really well?

Archambault A40RC. It is primarily an IRC boat, and I believe there is a small rating credit dependent on the prop type. Given the extent of the previous owner's optimisation and his lack of consideration for cruising amenities, I have to assume the rating credit from the 3 blade outweighed the small amount of drag increase it has over a 2 blade. If you look at the gori website, the 3 blade certainly folds to a pretty decent shape, although a racing 2 blade is definitely lower drag.

We have to deliver the boat if we want to race anyone other than local cruising sailors, usually into 3 times the breeze we raced back in, so we used the motor quite a bit. Whether the fancy Gori is worthwhile for you probably depends on how much you expect to be motoring.

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Krakatoa ll is in Auckland. Been in NZ for a few years. Won the recent Solo Trans Tasman. Another Class 40 Hupane is also in Auckland. This is the Verdier Ross and Cambell Field did half of the Global Race on when called Buckley systems.

I had the Volvo 3 bladed prop and thoroughly recommend it. Essential if you are doing any family / corporate / delivery work. Gets you home against 25kn, and backed into any marina berth without issues. OK - its not as smooth as a Gori but it's 1/3 the price.

 

Jono, good to hear about KII is still around. The solo Trans Tasman would be the sort of thing I'm hoping to be able to do if I choose, or have fun with a crew if desired.

Arrgh, the fightback for the three blade, good advice from all parties. I will make a call one way or the other.

 

Colors, colors...i have the obligatory spreadsheet of the to-do list, with a timeline showing when decisions have to be made by. The decisions right at the moment is color:

  • Hull color
  • Spinnaker color
  • Gennaker Color
  • Berth color.

It is different than I expected, the build date is September, and colors have to be decided now. I just thought these choices would have been toward the end of the build.

 

The design choices for the spinnaker. The gennaker option is one solid color, the kite can be two,

 

post-28484-0-78900800-1430909079_thumb.jpg

 

and the color chart for the hull (no dark colors allowed of course) A non traditional, but Interesting idea is that the hull color is a removable adhesive sticker. If I do get it wrong and I don't like it, at least I can peel it off, toss it and buy another one.

You could have different colors on port and starboard sides and confuse the hell out of the opposition on crossing tacks :blink:

 

post-28484-0-67623600-1430908216_thumb.jpg

 

and the berth cushion color. There is a lot of white, and not too much in the way of wood paneling compared to a Beneateu or Bavaria, so the fabric color can change the look and feel of the inside of the boat. What wood trim there is is a light beech color.

Reds make it look racy, the darker colors create a more elegant look, the kids are going to trash anything that is too light...

 

 

post-28484-0-95465200-1430908903_thumb.jpg post-28484-0-18217100-1430909606_thumb.jpg

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on a boat i used to race we swapped from a flexofold 2 blade to a gori 3 blade. made the boat motor 3 knots faster. another reason for us also was it dropped the irc handicap for us, but for the racing we did, that was pretty important, we also didn't notice any change in performance when sailing. the boat was a little different however, it was a grand soleil 54.

 

Also had you considered epoxy steering wheels? much cheaper than carbon.

 

have you any idea what electronics you're going to use?

 

post-42706-0-02750800-1430911591_thumb.jpg

 

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Thanks Shaggy.

Can't wait to see the finished product. Truly an amazing boat, and would be on my (very) short list if I was commissioning a new build.

I like the solid colour spinnaker, always have, I think they look more impressive when viewing them from another boat. Multi colour, or tri cut always look to me like the owner is compensating for something...

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on a boat i used to race we swapped from a flexofold 2 blade to a gori 3 blade. made the boat motor 3 knots faster. another reason for us also was it dropped the irc handicap for us, but for the racing we did, that was pretty important, we also didn't notice any change in performance when sailing. the boat was a little different however, it was a grand soleil 54.

 

Also had you considered epoxy steering wheels? much cheaper than carbon.

 

have you any idea what electronics you're going to use?

 

attachicon.gifgrp-wheel-2-big.jpg

 

 

JL, the Gori looks like engineering heaven to me, it reminds me of Ducati for some weird reason.

I must confess I didn't know epoxy wheels were a commercial product :o . Who makes them?

 

The electronics is NKE . Pilot, sensors, wireless NMEA output (Ipad etc), Adrena on PC at nav station.

I want the regatta compass for its heel/etc outputs, but I balked at the regatta processor, as its nuts expensive as an addon but oh,so tempting from an output performance point of view.

A current question on the to-do list is the suitability of the regatta compass without the regatta processor. To me I see obvious benefits in the compass, but if I am using the regatta compass, do I lose functionality when I'm talking to the standard Gyropilot 2 processor. Just speed? -aka 10-hz, or data inputs ??

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A white hull & white kites could help you be a bit stealthy amongst the competion once the fleet spreads out a bit.

 

Will the mast be painted black?

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on a boat i used to race we swapped from a flexofold 2 blade to a gori 3 blade. made the boat motor 3 knots faster. another reason for us also was it dropped the irc handicap for us, but for the racing we did, that was pretty important, we also didn't notice any change in performance when sailing. the boat was a little different however, it was a grand soleil 54.

 

Also had you considered epoxy steering wheels? much cheaper than carbon.

 

have you any idea what electronics you're going to use?

 

attachicon.gifgrp-wheel-2-big.jpg

 

JL, the Gori looks like engineering heaven to me, it reminds me of Ducati for some weird reason.

I must confess I didn't know epoxy wheels were a commercial product :o . Who makes them?

 

The electronics is NKE . Pilot, sensors, wireless NMEA output (Ipad etc), Adrena on PC at nav station.

I want the regatta compass for its heel/etc outputs, but I balked at the regatta processor, as its nuts expensive as an addon but oh,so tempting from an output performance point of view.

A current question on the to-do list is the suitability of the regatta compass without the regatta processor. To me I see obvious benefits in the compass, but if I am using the regatta compass, do I lose functionality when I'm talking to the standard Gyropilot 2 processor. Just speed? -aka 10-hz, or data inputs ??

I'd be interested if you figured out the regatta compass without processor thing. From what i can see, Looks like true wind calcs are calculated taking into account heel angle and better accuracy are the main benefits. Processor opens up better corrections and calibration of wind speed, comparison against polars, leeway etc. For heel angle input into the gyropilot (not just as correction to wind) you then need another unit called hr pilot. But that's just from a brief chat and looking at their website, could well be tosh.

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Thanks Shaggy.

Can't wait to see the finished product. Truly an amazing boat, and would be on my (very) short list if I was commissioning a new build.

I like the solid colour spinnaker, always have, I think they look more impressive when viewing them from another boat. Multi colour, or tri cut always look to me like the owner is compensating for something...

 

One non-compensatory advantage of good colour contrast on the luff is it's easier to see the leading edge folding for trimming at night (without the need for eg glowfast luff tapes).

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A white hull & white kites could help you be a bit stealthy amongst the competion once the fleet spreads out a bit.

 

Will the mast be painted black?

 

Hi Scanas, skulking stealthily through a fleet appeals to me a lot! :ph34r:

I should be thinking too of what looks the best in case I put the company logo on later. So potentially go for option 3 with the company color (dark blue) as the edging and white as the larger centre color where the nice big logo (blue/white/gold) goes?

How many vote for a white hull and no color? My color choice at the moment for the hull is Silver Metallic (835) , mainly as it is neutral enough to go with a strong color or all paler colours.

Yes, the mast will be clear coat. This was another long term decision with much research and thought.

You guys have a knack for asking questions on all the decisions that I thought were going to be easy, but were a lot harder than I first thought.

 

I was set on white, then I asked Structures for their thoughts and a couple of respected souls and changed my mind, as my main concern was UV damage.

Structures' use a UV proof expoy, same as the Open 40 rig, and their first 50 of these had no coat at all, and to date they assure me no damage at all. First hulls were 2005. so I have to admire their reference model..

The clear coat, or any coat, in their view becomes a aesthetic thing,

Moneywise the white is a couple of grand dearer than the clear. And white weathers better.

The point they made is damage to the clear coat wiill not damage the epoxy due to UV, so lets give it a whirl.

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Finishing off the sail wardrobe...

I added the staysail bag and staysail

 

post-28484-0-25777100-1431001881_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

Incidences : flat top main sail in Hydranet, 3reef, cars system

Incidences : lazy bag (grey) with 1 rope pocket

Incidences : solent for furler in hydranet (44m²),3 battens

Incidences : staysail with reef band in hydranet (26.5m²)

Incidences : custom trinquette bag for deck storage

Incidences : medium asymetric spi 1.5oz (155m²)

Incidences : snuffer for asymetric spinaker

Incidences : gennaker(code5) for furler in Stromlite3.5oz,104m²

 

Is the spinnaker cloth weight too heavy/cruiser oriented at 1.5oz? (Im used to 34ftrs)

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1.5oz seems heavy to me, will there be lots of wind to play in or will it only go up when it's light/medium?

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Charly tries to scare the shit out of second hand buyers, telling them black carbon mast will explode if not relacquered every 3 to 4 years

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Shaggy,

 

3-bladed folding have some good qualities that has been pointed out, as smaller diameter, less vibration etc. In use they usually give a better grip in the water, good in a harbour and in a choppy sea.

However, as a matter of fact, 3-blade props have lower efficiency than 2-bladed - a surprice for many.

 

In reality, it should not be much of a difference in speed (if the prop is rightly designed) between a 2-bladed or a 3-bladed. Those who have experienced an improvement going from one to another have probably had at least one prop that wasn't correctly designed for the boat/engine.

 

Volvo 3-bladed he props are made by Radice. They have had problems with the alloy, resulting in short life-time (there is a reason for the low price). It is said to work very well, but one can see that it really is a big thing also when folded.

 

Gori's advantage is in the quality, in all respects, as well as in the overdrive.

An alternative to the Gori is Flex-o-Fold, also made in Denmark. It scored best in a test made by Yachting Monthly (I think), some few years ago. Also high quality and nice.

 

If you want to spend more money there is always the feathering props. Maxprop, variprop, Kiwiprop (this one is not expensive). Somewhat more complicated, but owners usually have these in high regard.

 

Myself I have a FoF, very pleased.

 

/J

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1.5oz seems heavy to me, will there be lots of wind to play in or will it only go up when it's light/medium?

Hi Rushman, I'd say the average I'm going to play in is 10-20kn. Below 8 knots and I won't have enough grunt to start planing, so it seems a waste when I will only be starting off with the one spinnaker in the wardrobe. The lower order wind range would be 10kn, working up from there, so 1.5 sounds a bit heavy to me, (its dry weight is 5.5 ton.)

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Shaggy,

 

3-bladed folding have some good qualities that has been pointed out, as smaller diameter, less vibration etc. In use they usually give a better grip in the water, good in a harbour and in a choppy sea.

However, as a matter of fact, 3-blade props have lower efficiency than 2-bladed - a surprice for many.

 

In reality, it should not be much of a difference in speed (if the prop is rightly designed) between a 2-bladed or a 3-bladed. Those who have experienced an improvement going from one to another have probably had at least one prop that wasn't correctly designed for the boat/engine.

 

Volvo 3-bladed he props are made by Radice. They have had problems with the alloy, resulting in short life-time (there is a reason for the low price). It is said to work very well, but one can see that it really is a big thing also when folded.

 

Gori's advantage is in the quality, in all respects, as well as in the overdrive.

An alternative to the Gori is Flex-o-Fold, also made in Denmark. It scored best in a test made by Yachting Monthly (I think), some few years ago. Also high quality and nice.

 

If you want to spend more money there is always the feathering props. Maxprop, variprop, Kiwiprop (this one is not expensive). Somewhat more complicated, but owners usually have these in high regard.

 

Myself I have a FoF, very pleased.

 

/J

Yet another area of boats that crosses over to aviation.

If you take an aircraft with a 2 blade prop and replace it with a 3 blade, a few things happen.

First, it is smoother, it has higher static and slow speed thrust ie, it will shorted take off and improve climb rate, it is however significantly slower in cruise.

There were some one blade props back in the '30s and '40s that were more efficient than the 2 blades but didn't catch on do to the strange look and perceived danger.

Can't wait to see more pics of the Pogo.

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Shaggy,

 

3-bladed folding have some good qualities that has been pointed out, as smaller diameter, less vibration etc. In use they usually give a better grip in the water, good in a harbour and in a choppy sea.

However, as a matter of fact, 3-blade props have lower efficiency than 2-bladed - a surprice for many.

 

In reality, it should not be much of a difference in speed (if the prop is rightly designed) between a 2-bladed or a 3-bladed. Those who have experienced an improvement going from one to another have probably had at least one prop that wasn't correctly designed for the boat/engine.

 

Volvo 3-bladed he props are made by Radice. They have had problems with the alloy, resulting in short life-time (there is a reason for the low price). It is said to work very well, but one can see that it really is a big thing also when folded.

 

Gori's advantage is in the quality, in all respects, as well as in the overdrive.

An alternative to the Gori is Flex-o-Fold, also made in Denmark. It scored best in a test made by Yachting Monthly (I think), some few years ago. Also high quality and nice.

 

If you want to spend more money there is always the feathering props. Maxprop, variprop, Kiwiprop (this one is not expensive). Somewhat more complicated, but owners usually have these in high regard.

 

Myself I have a FoF, very pleased.

 

/J

Yet another area of boats that crosses over to aviation.

If you take an aircraft with a 2 blade prop and replace it with a 3 blade, a few things happen.

First, it is smoother, it has higher static and slow speed thrust ie, it will shorted take off and improve climb rate, it is however significantly slower in cruise.

There were some one blade props back in the '30s and '40s that were more efficient than the 2 blades but didn't catch on do to the strange look and perceived danger.

Can't wait to see more pics of the Pogo.

 

 

Thanks Jaramz, that's great info. One thing I find interesting is how each component increases in quality is evident in design or material as you pay more.

It is difficult to keep to the budget when the "its only the next sized up option" does bring key advantages for the money, not necessarily reflected in cars or motorcycles.

 

Slip knot, I didn't know that you'll achieve a slower cruise speed with a 3 blade. Can you explain/elaborate on this? If pitch was a constant, I would have put it to be better, not worse?

I am trying to learn fluid dynamics at the moment, and this peaks my interest!

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These are the rear port and starboard bulkheads.The big cutouts are the doorways, the foremost is the port side, adjacent rear is the starboard side.

The starboard side is our technical area, through the doorway is the toilet/shower area, then another cabin as a storage area big enough for a little workbench, a single berth, and ample storage, or lose the berth and loads of storage.

The port side is a double cabin. A welcome surprise was how big inside for a 40ftr,thanks to the beam.

No storage under the main cabin settees, (good, I've never liked them anyway) as the foam compartments take up a lot of space, yet the storage capacity certainly feels enough for our use,

Keeping the boat uncluttered is high on the list!

 

 

post-28484-0-65860800-1431088211_thumb.jpg

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On a non-sailing tangent; this is the hotel at Loctudy, where we stayed on our visit. About 5 mins from Combrit where Structures is. The food was stunning, they did a classic French 5 course meal that was truly remarkable.

I had a mate that had been there for a holiday and didn't enjoy himself. I dont know how, we found even when the locals had no English, (and our French is barely passable), we had a great time, and enjoyed all of it.

On the water, beautiful sailing weather and location, coffee shops tucked along the stone promenades, you could fall in love with Sth Brittany.

 

post-28484-0-97300200-1431089666_thumb.jpg post-28484-0-44978000-1431090376_thumb.jpg

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1.5oz is double the weight you need....

 

An Airx 700 kite would suit your needs as the "Light/Medium" and that is even overdoing it. If you are really worried, get a Nylite 90 or Similar.

 

On 40 footers I have never built a kite over Superkote 130 and that was an A5... Designed for 25knots ++++

 

I would go Airx 650/700 split @ 40/60% split.

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Finot Conq have been dabbling with swing keels for a while. The left hand pic is from 1978, the right hand is the Pogo 12.50.

 

post-28484-0-31951000-1431093160_thumb.jpg post-28484-0-99680700-1431093189_thumb.jpg

 

 

My not so good translation of the 12.50 article.

 

As a good part of the keel lift-type is located inside the boat, the veil is achieved in composite to maintain a center of gravity as low as possible.

The beam in glass of 12 in centimeters per thickness is recessed in the bulge in lead and then two half-shells of composite come about 80% of 2250 kilos are thus contained in the bulb with a low center of gravity.

The cylinder is tare for 160 bars of pressure and claimed 800 watts of power. It is used as a windlass, motor in road and sails lowered unless slung since it is prohibited to sail under sails, keel high.

The lift takes a minute twenty and lowering a minute. In the case of calibration, an overpressure valve opens the hydraulic system and the cylinder extends which, combined with the angulation toward the rear of the keel, limit the efforts on the structure.

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1.5oz is double the weight you need....

 

An Airx 700 kite would suit your needs as the "Light/Medium" and that is even overdoing it. If you are really worried, get a Nylite 90 or Similar.

 

On 40 footers I have never built a kite over Superkote 130 and that was an A5... Designed for 25knots ++++

 

I would go Airx 650/700 split @ 40/60% split.

 

Msa, are the Airx 700, Nylite 90 all about 1 oz?

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I can't say for sure that a 3 blade prop in the water would be slower than the 2, but I can say that it is for sure the case in the air.

Water being roughly 8-900 times more dense than air does create some different scenarios.

There is significant "slip" of the blade in air, and that causes the following blade to run somewhat in turbulent flow. Less blades, less turbulence to run in. The old one blade props were running in clean air all the time.

Frontal blade area also increases, which creates more drag.

At the slower forward speeds where drag is less, and blade angle of attack is more noticeable, more blades is better as it maximizes the number of downward(more efficient) pulses per rotation.

Boat props are slightly different, foil shape is much less important since they work much more like a screw because of the water density. Their biggest issue is that they are usually very limited by maximum blade length.

I remember as a kid, I had 2 14' aluminum boats, one with a 9.9hp mercury, and one with a 9.9 Johnson.

The Johnson had a small diameter 3 blade and the merc had a larger diameter 2 blade.

Out of the hole, it was no contest, the Johnson would be a few boat lengths ahead by the time they were planing. Once they started to wind out, that 2 blade merc would kill the Johnson.

Not really a scientific test, but significant all the same.

Really like the Pogo by the way.

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Airx 700 is 1.03oz. or 45gm2.

 

Nylite 90 is 1.12oz or 48gm2

 

Interesting they say Superkote 90 is .9oz.. when the data sheet shows 1.10oz

 

What is the 1.5oz cloth the propose? Superkote? so actually 1.65oz.

 

There is a strange distortion on marketed name and the actual weight.

 

Airx 500 (Super light weight spinnaker cloth) is actually 0.74oz.......

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Metallic is harder to patch when you have an unfortunate incident with a wharf or port tacker

 

 

 

 

A white hull & white kites could help you be a bit stealthy amongst the competion once the fleet spreads out a bit.

 

Will the mast be painted black?

Hi Scanas, skulking stealthily through a fleet appeals to me a lot! :ph34r:

I should be thinking too of what looks the best in case I put the company logo on later. So potentially go for option 3 with the company color (dark blue) as the edging and white as the larger centre color where the nice big logo (blue/white/gold) goes?

How many vote for a white hull and no color? My color choice at the moment for the hull is Silver Metallic (835) , mainly as it is neutral enough to go with a strong color or all paler colours.

 

Yes, the mast will be clear coat. This was another long term decision with much research and thought.

You guys have a knack for asking questions on all the decisions that I thought were going to be easy, but were a lot harder than I first thought.

 

I was set on white, then I asked Structures for their thoughts and a couple of respected souls and changed my mind, as my main concern was UV damage.

Structures' use a UV proof expoy, same as the Open 40 rig, and their first 50 of these had no coat at all, and to date they assure me no damage at all. First hulls were 2005. so I have to admire their reference model..

The clear coat, or any coat, in their view becomes a aesthetic thing,

Moneywise the white is a couple of grand dearer than the clear. And white weathers better.

The point they made is damage to the clear coat wiill not damage the epoxy due to UV, so lets give it a whirl.

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Ok, so the difference between air and sea is pressure, hence the pitch of the marine prop can be flatter, hence the screw action.

So, does that mean that drag works on both in equal amounts? The marine prop gain of a flatter pitch is offset by the water density VS. the air prop has a much broader pitch, but less air density?

As a general guide that is?

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Pretty close on the 130... The only one you can trust is SK350... which is 3.5oz hahah. That's Dinghy Mainsail cloth!!

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Ok, so the difference between air and sea is pressure, hence the pitch of the marine prop can be flatter, hence the screw action.

So, does that mean that drag works on both in equal amounts? The marine prop gain of a flatter pitch is offset by the water density VS. the air prop has a much broader pitch, but less air density?

As a general guide that is?

I would agree with that. Drag is always going to be the ultimate deciding factor.

Where the marine prop can see higher efficiency is that they can be optimized around a much smaller speed range.

Personally, I would buy the 2 blade, and take the saved money and maximize beer cooler capacity/insulation.

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