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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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shaggybaxter

Construction of a Pogo 12.50

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G'day Tigrah,

Yep, it's a tough sell, we looked at some more stripped out designs and the look on her face was enough. She would have let me go through with a more bare bones design, but not with the same amount of peace!

Good luck with the choice, one point of interest with mine, the purchase price is quickly forgotten , the ongoing is much more relevant. Ifor example 'm starting to chew through the casings on all the halyards after 9 months. They are letting go where the jam cleats are gripping the casing. This is partly my fault, re-enforcing with the crew the neccesity of pretensioning of the lines before release, maybe having too much sail area for wind conditions, but its expensive, more so on a 48'!

Spyderpig, congrats! I am sure you'll get the same enjoyment out of her that we do! Regards staysail, hardly ever needed to reef. I will preface the following by saying this is not Pogo's recommendations, but what we have found. We change to the staysail if the wind is staying above 20 knots, at 25 knots it is pretty much a given. 30knots is comfortable , 35 and I'd reef it. Reefing it is not hard to do, nor is retensioning the halyard in strong winds, but physically doing the work on the foredeck in 30+ with the corresponding sea state is challenging. I went for Incidence, and they have proved to be tough as nails. Pogo told me at commissioning holding the sails in heavier airs than rated was fine, just not as comfortable, which is true.

One suggestion: the splice in the lower section of the inner forestay is thick, and the standard hanks struggle to slip down over it, leaving the hanked on staysail a couple of feet higher up the forestay than I like. Get bigger hanks for the staysail to accomodate the thickness of the splice. Incidence make a great deck bag for the staysail for when it's hanked on, just open and hoist. I can't get the staysail in the bag due to the hanks being too tight.

The other thing to think of is inner forestay tension. In strong winds , at least with mine having no backstay, the mast will move forward, not much but it will. Ensure you can tension your staysail easily, and it has a loose luff. I wouldn't use a rod furler for example .

Hope this helps , keep us posted on the progress!

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Shaggy, I just found this post and I want to thank you for it!

 

Construction of my new JPK38 has just started and as I go through the steps you recently passed, many of your considerations and comments are super helpful.

 

If possible I would be very interested to see some pictures of how Pogo handles the watertightness of the aft bulkhead for cables, wires, exhaust etc. I'm going to the yard next week (after La Rochelle boat show) and will discuss the work plan. Delivery scheduled for end January next year.

 

 

 

G'day StuartXe,

Congratulations mate on the purchase, you must be over the moon!

I'm not real comfortable with your request, I don't think its appropriate for me to post photos with the express purpose for you to take back to JPK.

You could argue I have done a blog with a shit ton of info on the Pogo already, and that is all true, however asking me for photographic evidence and then go to JPK's yard to discuss the work plan, I am sorry Stuart , but that doesn't sit well with me. Besides, JPK and Structures know each other quite well, I would prefer they ask Christian for this, not me.

I apologise in advance if I misread your intent.

SB

 

 

 

No worry SB, I didn't even think of it that way but you have a point! Anyway my question wasn't due to a specific concern with the yard, but rather I have been looking at various options to minimise the risk of damage/sinking due to rudder damage. I did my research, worked out a solution I liked, then when I went to the yard to discuss it, I realised they had already gone through my logic and have a very good system in place. As suggested by others I think I'll start a parallel thread to document my experience and talk about that too. I am really enjoying the process.

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Shaggy, I just found this post and I want to thank you for it!

 

Construction of my new JPK38 has just started and as I go through the steps you recently passed, many of your considerations and comments are super helpful.

 

If possible I would be very interested to see some pictures of how Pogo handles the watertightness of the aft bulkhead for cables, wires, exhaust etc. I'm going to the yard next week (after La Rochelle boat show) and will discuss the work plan. Delivery scheduled for end January next year.

 

 

Stu- New thread to document build of your JPK38?

 

Please

 

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I am really enjoying the process of the new boat building and have decided to start a thread today: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=178052

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Shaggy,

 

The build is well on its way, apparently now out of the hull mold. I am now in Cape Verdes at anchor with internet for a time so can contact Coralie fur updates, then she contacts me for more money, quick, I need to get back to sea. I have gone for the stay sail on a normal furler, the sail is cut to suit and this hopefully will work for me as I will be singlehanded most of the time and to tack once every few days. I am also getting the assymetric on a Spinex furler which uses the same components apart from the luff rope as the gennaker. I have one of these on my beneteau and it transforms the way I use my A sail.

 

From your posts it looks like I am going to have to learn marina driving all over again, I think I will ask Pogo for a days instruction!

 

I trust your season is still going well and look forwards to reading of more of your adventures!

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G'day Spyderpig,

How is the build progressing, you have to be getting close now?

I've been a bit sidetracked of late, but we had our first birthday of Fusion on New Year Eve, so I thought I'd try and summarize our first year in a single video.

We've learnt a lot, and this next year will see a bit more campaigning in the offshore and short handed stuff. I'll try and get off my arse and keep you all up to date with our journey.

Hope you guys like it :)

 

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Great video Shaggy! Good to see you enjoy the boat.

Two questions:

- do you have the NKE regatta or HR processor?

- what brand of mast does Pogo use?

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Great video Shaggy! Good to see you enjoy the boat.

Two questions:

- do you have the NKE regatta or HR processor?

- what brand of mast does Pogo use?

 

G'day Zee,

Neither mate, the reason being purely financial. The regatta processor would be my choice considering I have a heel/pitch sensor already, and it's still a 25hz processor. I was hoping to buy one this year, but a light air headsail is knocking it off for the top of the wish list at the moment,

Mast is carbon fibre from Marechal, and it's been awesome. An interesting footnote: I got warned by a few people that leaving it with just clear coat would be too hot to climb on hot days, but even in stinking hot summer days it's cool to the touch. The boom is alloy, as are the spreaders, as for the 12.50 being the cruiser variant it is not worth the weight reduction vs the expense.

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Shaggy,

 

Great video. Best thing in my day. Had me smiling all the way. I needed that on this hard day at work while our new Prez tries to destroy the world as we know it.

 

Cheers IB, I don't envy you at the mo, the man's as mad as a cut snake.

 

I'll bet he's really popular down under today after his friendly call to your Aussie PM.

 

Hi Hawaii, There is mostly amusement, but tinged with a slow grumbling of annoyance. You know like when a mosquito just won't fuck off and leave you alone?

awesome! Can I be you... for, well... a while

 

Thanks Liquid, but don't say that, I'll get all embarrassed. Tell you what, why don't you grab a few SA'ers and come down for a holiday, get away from the US scene for a while while the US dollar is strong? 14 hour flight from LA direct, the beer's cold, it's moving into autumn when its a bit cooler, I'll take some time off and we've got lots of races coming up!

We promise banning at the border still a Nthern hemisphere thing only :ph34r:

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Thanks Couta,

Aargh! I've been done by copyright on the audio. I mistakenly thought that adding a reference to the artist was enough, apparently not.

I'll take it down whilst I sort it out, bugger.

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Thanks Couta,

Aargh! I've been done by copyright on the audio. I mistakenly thought that adding a reference to the artist was enough, apparently not.

I'll take it down whilst I sort it out, bugger.

 

I've had a win, Youtube unblocked the audio after all.

Back to regular programming.

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Nice video shags, good to see she gets some use.

 

Hi Hawaii, There is mostly amusement, but tinged with a slow grumbling of annoyance. You know like when a mosquito just won't fuck off and leave you alone?

He reminds me more of that big, dopey dog that wanders down your street and shits in front of your house and stirs up all of the other dogs. Most of the time it's just annoying, but you don't really want to confront it in case it rips your leg off. You just wish the owners would chain the fucker up where it belongs.

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So, the next challenge is enhancing our light air capability.

My guru extraordinaire sail maker suggested I talk to Pogo about the options for a masthead genoa, rather than the fractional setup the boat has at the moment. The idea is to get as much cloth up as we can, as in 4-5 knots we are pretty gluey.

 

On the 12.50, the halyard sheaves exit the mast at the very top, but there is a set of padeyes, or spectacles, mounted 1,700mm down from the sheaves. This spectacles are approx 600mm above the cap shrouds. I've attached a pic below.

 

upper%20mast_zps0tttjwa3.jpg

 

So, off to Pogo to check the viability of a masthead arrangement for up to 8 knots.

Coralie came back pretty much straight away, the short answer is no. Even if I did fit running backstays, the mast is simply not designed to take masthead sails.

Sigh....Fair enough. The solution she suggest was a Code 0.

Our current solent (jib) is 44m2, the Code 0 would be the same as the Class 40 variant at 60m2.

 

Coralie seems enthusiastic about the lift in performance. I think this is an option I need to pursue further, we can do with the extra performance in llght airs.

I don't know if this gives me a handicap hit, something else I need to factor in, IRC or ORC?

Good thing is it would be an easy fit, it would use the existing Profurl furler arrangement we have for the gennaker.

Time to go and buy my bestest buddy a beer and have a long chat :)

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Sailmakers always want to sell another sail ,we have a code Zero/reacher on 46 ft cat and yes it works in light winds with it sheeted in with barber hauler but after six knots the jib works fine.

It comes down to how much you race in light winds ,against the compromise of sailing with another sail.

Code Zero work sweet and if you can utilise it in light weather winds and also up as a reacher up to 15 knots go for it.

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Code Zero, go for it,

oh and let your sailmaker contact the mast maker direct with your question. But do not expect answer :)

Structures could be a bit on the safe side.

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There are two variants of code zeros. The first measures as a spinnaker and thus has no rating hit under irc. The downside is that in order to measure in properly a large portion of the luff has to remain unsupported, tends to flap a lot, and looks terrible very good design can mitigate these issues. The second type of Code zero doesn't measure in as a spinnaker, has a rating hit, but is a much better shaped sail.

 

Luckily for you the Class 40 I am pretty sure uses the first type of Code, so you can probably just buy one of those and not effect your IRC rating, while getting a decent looking sail.

 

Also keep in mind that C0's have a pretty good history replacing an A3 for heavy air reaching, so it can do double duty on board.

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2 steps ahead of you there Spydy. Interesting experience being on the lee rail when the crew below are stacked on the weather rail!

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IMO opinion the flappy leech non penalised code 0 does not go upwind as well as the others. No evidence, just observation on the course. We couldn't use ours usefully much tighter than 60-70 twa, anything tighter and it was better with a jib, even in drifting condition. We did have some success going from becalmed to moving using a code zero upwind in a keppel race, but vmg was shite.

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IMO opinion the flappy leech non penalised code 0 does not go upwind as well as the others. No evidence, just observation on the course. We couldn't use ours usefully much tighter than 60-70 twa, anything tighter and it was better with a jib, even in drifting condition. We did have some success going from becalmed to moving using a code zero upwind in a keppel race, but vmg was shite.

I don't disagree with you. But keep in mind code's were designed for light and lumpy off shore on a boat with a tiny non-overlapping fractional headsail. Not for W-L courses.

 

The non-flappy codes are better sails, and point much better. But you take a rating hit, so it's a balancing act.

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The rating hit should be less than for a masthead sail, ...probably as with IRC, it is hard to be sure about these things.

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G'day Keithmoon,

I have to admit, I love the Code 5, it's is just a brilliant sail for the 12.50. In the last race, we were three sail reaching holding approx 90TWA at 15-20kn, and the majority of the fleet that were holding kites were dropping off our course line by a minimum of 10 degrees, and going a knot or two slower. To go faster, I'm realising I need to reef earlier, ie: getting the boat flatter seems to make it even quicker. We can keep the Code 5 up to 30knots pretty comfortably too. So a Code 1 would be good for light airs, but given the choice, the Code 5 in spades, it's just made for this hull design.

 

So, regards the code 0, I've made a call, and not the one I thought I would make.

The aim is to keep the boat moving in light airs, that's the driving focus. This is for racing of course, in cruise mode I'll simply motor sail in 5 knots if I have to.

So, after chatting with oh guru, we spent a fair bit of time discussing what we really wanted to achieve, rather than focus on a specific sail.

 

For races like the Brisbane to Gladstone, or Brisbane to Keppel, it is the light airs we need to overcome rather than the wind direction. In the perfect world, I'd simply build a fuck off wardrobe for any conditions, but money is always a consideration, so, with the budget constraints as a factor I've opted to go for a light air assymetrical, and put the Code 0 on my birthday wish list.

 

My current Aso is 155m2, and we've opted for a 191m2, a wind range from 8-18 knots for two sail reaching and running . I'll still get punished in 4-5 knots, but at that wind range we'll simply crack the beers and toast the winners as they disappear over the horizon.

It was interesting, I would have thought that a masthead kite, which we can't do with our mast, would have made a huge difference in the m2 as compared to my fractional rig design. As mentioned earlier, it is a good 1.3mtrs difference in the current halyard position compared to the top of the mast.The net difference for a masthead ended up being only 12m2 ! How shy we can run it remains to be seen.

We should have it in time for the Gladstone, so the proof is in the pudding, If I can keep with the fleet in the light, till the wind conditions turn and favour the Pogo, we may actually do alright.

 

I'll let you guys know the outcome :)

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Will you be racing IRC, orci, or dartboard?

IRC restricts kite numbers, you might have to leave a favourite sail at home. I think, but can't remember for sure, that orci has the same kite restrictions as IRC

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G'day Rant,

I'm in the process of getting our ORCI cert, I'm not going to worry about IRC. Good point though on sail numbers, I'll need to check this out.

:) dartboard, heh, I like that !

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Tomorrow we're heading out to practice our heavy air trim and gain some measurement against the polars . Today the forecast was a mild 15 knots, yet the Kingfisher race tonight report was 23-24 knots true :)

With the forecast tomorrow supposed (the same weather system) forecast for 25 knots, I'm hoping for 25- 30's so we can get some time in playing with the reefs and sprit sails whilst running.

 

Mind you, the temperature is supposed to hit 39 deg Celcius, which is hot even for our neck of the woods, so we'll need to be careful, lots of sunscreen and water, and manage the crew fatigue, the ingredients are there for damaging the boat.

 

I had an email from Pogo on Friday, a fellow Aussie has bought a 12.50! Yahoo! Someone hopefully to play with!

Any Anarchist out there with the inside knowledge?

Looking forward to it, bring it on.

 

 

.

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Tomorrow we're heading out to practice our heavy air trim and gain some measurement against the polars . Today the forecast was a mild 15 knots, yet the Kingfisher race tonight report was 23-24 knots true :)

With the forecast tomorrow supposed (the same weather system) forecast for 25 knots, I'm hoping for 25- 30's so we can get some time in playing with the reefs and sprit sails whilst running.

 

Mind you, the temperature is supposed to hit 39 deg Celcius, which is hot even for our neck of the woods, so we'll need to be careful, lots of sunscreen and water, and manage the crew fatigue, the ingredients are there for damaging the boat.

 

I had an email from Pogo on Friday, a fellow Aussie has bought a 12.50! Yahoo! Someone hopefully to play with!

Any Anarchist out there with the inside knowledge?

Looking forward to it, bring it on.

 

 

.

 

When I got your texts at 130 am my wife said 'who is that' and I told her I was having an affair. She said don't you lie to me you are doing the Gladstone on the pogo aren't you.

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Errr...oops, sorry about that LB. Forgot it was dark out, my office window doesn't have a view like yours :(

 

Correction: previously I got all wet and excited over a new 12.50 coming to Oz. I was wrong, the 12.50 in Perth has been sold. Hope to catch up next time I'm in WA.

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Wow! What a story! I spent the last two days reading through it all. I found it researching Pogo 12.50 of course! Thanks for all the information, photos and videos.

 

I have been drooling over a Pogo basically since the Pogo 8.50 late last century.

 

Now my wife and I have an appointment with them on May 24 for a visit and a try out on the water.

 

We are very early in the process, but I am hoping for a delivery in the the summer of 2018. If all goes well.

 

I am looking forward to reading more of your stories.

 

Jean-Denis

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Congrats Spyderpig!

I can imagine the grin must be ear to ear right now.

I'll let you in on a wee secret mate, it doesn't go away :)

Edit: I took my 10yr and 13yr old out Saturday night for their first night sail, just the three of us. 10-15 knots , headsail only, averaging 6 kn, we left at 9 and got back in just after midnight. The look of pride on their faces when they took the wheel was priceless.

Driving home , they're both crashed out, I sneak a look and they're both smiling , yet fast asleep .

Good times.

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So, does any other builder offer a swing keel with the performance and awsomeosity of Pogo? Or have the y cornered this part of the market?

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G'day DRW,

The swing keel that pogo use s a Finot Conq design, I'd suggest have a look there for other boat vendors. I warn you though you might get sidetracked , there's some serious boat porn on there :)

Cheers!

SB

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I think jack had hit the Easter bottle a bit earlier than most, he has been making less sense than usually last few days.

 

Good luck shaggs, have a top race, hope you have 15-20 on the quarter all the way up. Is LB on with you, or is he on a work boat?

Try and beat restless in, or Johno will drink all the rum!

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Hi,

 

Well Akouavi has at last left the confines of Sainte Marine and is now in Portugal. Fabulous crossing of the Bay of Biscay with speeds in excess of 14 knots without trying! I love the way she transfers to planing mode and how quite down below.

 

You are right Shaggy, the grin just keeps growing.

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I think jack had hit the Easter bottle a bit earlier than most, he has been making less sense than usually last few days.

 

Good luck shaggs, have a top race, hope you have 15-20 on the quarter all the way up. Is LB on with you, or is he on a work boat?

Try and beat restless in, or Johno will drink all the rum!

Thanks Rant,

No LB this year, I know he had a nuts amount of work on. I'll miss him not being there, he's great to sail with.

I'd love to beat Russel in! We'll have to sail well if it stays light. It appears the way to get the most from the Pogo is to focus on hitting our VMG numbers for the given wind strength, getting the apparent forward and then pushing deeper.

We'll get some good practice at least looking at the forecast!

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Hi,

 

Well Akouavi has at last left the confines of Sainte Marine and is now in Portugal. Fabulous crossing of the Bay of Biscay with speeds in excess of 14 knots without trying! I love the way she transfers to planing mode and how quite down below.

 

You are right Shaggy, the grin just keeps growing.

Wahoo! Go you good thing! I'm grinning thinking of it Spyder, make sure you update us here with your travels !

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Do you ever stop learning? I was disappointed with our results in a recent race where we had a lot of time with wind aft of the mast, a lot of times light but with periods of decent wind where the boat should have shone, and didn’t. So I sat down and pulled all the data to see where I went wrong.

Yacht racing is a game of inches and seconds if you want to be at the top of the fleet, so it is important for me to understand how I can improve. I have a lot of data that is recorded from the Adrena software and the NKE instruments, but when reviewing the data nothing apparent jumped out as a major issue, it all looked normal. Grrr…what’s the purpose of all this shit if it doesn’t tell you anything?

Pre Start

Boat prep, I had a new light air deep running aso just fitted. I had not lifted the boat for some 6 months but I had a diver clean the bottom 4 days before the race. I was heavy on crew (8) but it was our first decent offshore race (300nm), and the boat previously seems to handle weight ok. We had some new people on board, but well experienced, enough to at least make a good showing of it.

We started at the committee boat end of the line, 10 seconds after the gun, right on the pin. Wind was light but from starboard, so we had clean air. So no excuses there. We did ok in the light airs getting out of the bay, not a strong point for us, but we held the fleet, till the winds freshened to 10 odd knots and went behind the mast. Our favourite angle, and were we should do well, and yet on review this is where I ultimately lost the race.

 

IMG_0944_zpsfcsjkxs0.jpg

 

The Problem

The issue was I couldn’t seem to hit the polar numbers without running hotter angles. We had printed out the optimal VMG speed and angles I needed to hit for each of the true wind speeds and stuck them to each helm. I was heading up, hitting the polars and then constantly bearing deep to get the angles, only for the boat speed to drop off too much. Head up, hit polars, bear off, drop off. Rinse, repeat. WTF? Why is that? The answers had to be there somewhere. In light airs the drop in boat speed was more noticeable, and in heavy airs the speed was good and I could run deeper. The issue was I was covering a lot more miles than the fleet, but with the speeds I wasn’t gaining on the boats I should have been, at least on paper. So, the old chestnut, do I trade distance for speed, or vice versa. The first half of the race I went for a more direct course, the second half I went for speed. Neither worked.

 

IMG_0962_zpsu7bvgpnj.jpg

 

The Review

Time for a different approach. Rather than just stare at all of this data waiting for an answer to leap from the screen, I grabbed a blank sheet and wrote down what I knew. To make a hull shape like the Pogo perform, I had to hit my speed numbers first, get the apparent wind forward, then push for the angles second, all the time, every wave and puff. But it wasn’t there. The speed didn’t come with the expected angles. With this in mind, I attacked all the data again.

Hours of work later, lots of chook scratchings over a few pages, I reviewed the outcomes. I sat back, feeling slightly foolish, then checked the numbers again. Then I got on the phone and spoke to a couple of other skippers to compare notes. It always strikes me how helpful other sailors are even though on the racecourse we’re all competitive in the extreme!

 

The Outcomes

Here’s what I found. The first two from talking with the crew and other skippers, the last two from the data:

 

Hull prep.

Other skippers had the boat out of the water getting hulls polished, or sanding back with 1200 wet and dry. I had a diver wipe over the hull 4 days prior which just doesn’t cut it in a light air race. (My only defence was work commitments, a good reason maybe, but a poor excuse) The Pogo has a large wetted surface area in light airs, I needed to be more slippery than any other boat, this is not an area to ignore on a Class 40 hull shape.

Kite set.

When running deep, we spent most of the time with the clew only a foot off, or on the sprit. I noticed the kite was to windward of the forestay, but not a lot. I should have eased the tack line more, letting the kite fly more to windward.

Use the reef hook on the luff. My guru sailmaker had put a reef hook 50cm up the luff to tighten the luff for when the wind went light. We tried it once, didn’t see a difference, so we took it out. On hindsight , I was trying to run deep at the time, and because I tightened it we had the clew on the sprit. I should have had the tack line eased then shortened the luff.

Current.

As I was running hotter angles, I ended up the boat most offshore and the furthest from the rumb line. I was watching the sea temp through the race and saw no discernible shift, so I thought I was in neutral current. But the current direction changed without an obvious change in sea temp. It transpired I was fighting a 2.5 knot current courtesy of being too far offshore.

 

Polars.

This was the big one. The Pogo has a big fat headed main. Heading downwind, the upwash over the anonemeter is an issue, and increases the wind speed artificially. I knew this, so I mentally drop the True wind speed down two knots before I look at my polars for the expected boat speed I should be aiming for. But when I looked at the data, I noticed when we gybed my TWD would change. ??? I went back and reviewed it again. Everytime we gybed the TWD would change. A port tack would show 180° TWD, we gybe over to starboard and it would read 200° TWD.

So, this meant not only my TWS is out , but also my TWD. This of course is what you are referencing against when sailing to your polars, so I was artificially sailing higher and faster than I should have been to get down the course in the shortest possible time. In the NKE system is a capability called True Wind Tables. This allows you to apply an offset for Upwind , Reaching and Downwind conditions. The tables allow you to apply an offset for the wind speed and wind angles, exactly what I needed to do in order to gain a more accurate reference, before I attempt to sail to my polars. I’d seen it before , but ignored it as too complex and rather irrelevant. (If Railmeat read this I’m sure he’d have a quiet chuckle at my ignorance) I need to get out there and apply these offsets. This will give a me a real world number set, then I might have the chance in the next race to let the boat do what it should, rather than me force it higher and faster based on incorrect data.

 

windtables_zps9ubq8yuk.png

 

So, in summary, I have a lot to learn still. The fact that I could run deeper in heavier airs was simply the Pogo's boat speed creates a greater shift of the apparent wind forward, so naturally it allows you to run deeper the faster you go, not so much when the wind is light. The lack of attention to the hull being optimal and the kite set only exacerbated the difference.

However, getting to compete against boats like Ichi Ban, Blackjack and Alive, and watching Navs like Will Oxley do their stuff, I’m more than prepared to take the humility and be thankful I do a sport where I get the chance to learn from the best and improve our understanding of the boat every time we sail.

 

Next time. I'm determined to do better, I just hope I can handle the humiliation as I learn :)

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Shaggy - really appreciate your review. Too few sailors are prepared to go through the data (we all have it) and seriously try and address issues....much easier to either blame conditions (it wasn't our weather), crew, sailmaker.....etc. Your approach will deliver the results and sets a great example for those of us willing to learn. This sport rewards full & frank debriefing....it's why coaches play such a clear role in OTB classes. It's a shame we don't have the same "coach" mentality on our keelboats. Anyway, thanks again for sharing!!

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The down wind Polars in the photo do not look correct for a 40 foot assy boat, they more look like a symmetrical type kite set up.

 

Whe sailing assy kites as a general rule of thumb is your windex should be pretty much on the beam or slightly forward as you need to sail apparent wind angles, particularly when your MHU offset is not set up correctly.

 

You need to ensure your instruments are all set up correctly ie MHU offset and log to ensure TWS and TWA are reading correctly.

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The dirty arse would be the main issue I suspect. Everything changes if the drag is up and it does not take much to do it, on a design like that.

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I only have experience of an older pogo with a now dated hull shape (pogo 8.50) but I suspect that you could do with your crew more forward than on the photo. I would basically have everybody apart the helm and a trim guy sitting between the 2 guys in white on the rail on the photo, you can even have 2 of them having a rest in the forepeak. YMMV

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Shaggy you might want to consider changing your approach from sailing TWA to sailing AWA downwind.

 

My current ride is renowned for being fast to its polars and rating downwind, and the core of the same crew sails a couple, of other boats which are similarly fast downwind. We sail pretty much as you do, hunt speed then soak. The difference is that we sail to AWA and boatspeed targets, not TWA. We find AWA superior to TWA as it is typically read straight off the MHU. AWA is less damped, less processed and way, way less subject to calibration errors than TWA and hence the crew is far less dependent on the calibrations being good if they are sailing to AWA.

 

Instruments are never perfect and the calibration process is endless. Wind shear, sea state and wind strength, damping, mast twist and assorted oyther factors can impact calibrations. 10 degrees TWD difference tack to tack downwind is relatively good by the standards of many of the race boats I've worked with.

 

As you've identified it is critical to get downwind TWS right - and there are correction factors to deal with upwash in all decent instrument systems. The better systems allow different corrections at different wind angles - it appears your NKE system has that capability so you've work to do. I'd recommend you log every race you do using something like Expedition or any other tool you can identify. Analysing that data post-fact can help you build those tables without having to spend long hours on the water just callibrating.

 

In order to get your TWD right you need good TWA values. To get TWA calibration right you need TWS reading correctly as it's all about vectors and so a TWS error will throw up a wrong TWA. To get TWS right you need the log correctly calibrated, same reasons apply. AWA and AWS are also critical but in most systems are left alone as they are generally pretty well calibrated out of the box. A MHU offset isn't uncommon, however. Check for that. And above all else the compass needs to be accurate too. Plenty to do.

 

Also check that the damping factors across the variables are relatively constant. In B&G systems weird mathematical things can happen if they aren't, not sure about others but I did once manage to replicate this weirdness offline using a spreadsheet so it may be something that's not system-specific.

 

You should also consider the sea state and its impact on targets downwind. Generally the swell and wind aren't completely aligned so the boat will be more wave-assisted on one gybe than the other. That being the case you can typically sail lower than targets on a wave assisted gybe but may need to sail on or hotter than targets on the other. This is especially the case on an A-sail boat with relatively big gybe angles.

 

Current can also impact your target angles downwind. A following current reduces the apparent windspeed and can impact the optimal sailing angles.

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G'day DD,

That makes a lot of sense. I understand why apparent is cleaner data, but I think I got hung up on true, as I often reference to TWD.

I'm bringing the boat home on Tuesday, I'll switch my polars to awa and try it.

Thanks mate, that's great advice.

SB

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I only have experience of an older pogo with a now dated hull shape (pogo 8.50) but I suspect that you could do with your crew more forward than on the photo. I would basically have everybody apart the helm and a trim guy sitting between the 2 guys in white on the rail on the photo, you can even have 2 of them having a rest in the forepeak. YMMV

G'day Pano,

Yep, you're right, this is normal mode for light airs. More so, as the S2 hull shape is fuller in the bow sections.

pogo1_zpsbhq0y0nr.jpg

It defintely makes a difference

pogo2_zpshr1tql8j.jpg

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G'day DD,

That makes a lot of sense. I understand why apparent is cleaner data, but I think I got hung up on true, as I often reference to TWD.

I'm bringing the boat home on Tuesday, I'll switch my polars to awa and try it.

Thanks mate, that's great advice.

SB

Welcome sir! Even if we sail on AWA we still work hard on getting the true angles and other calibrations right as I use them navigating - I really do need accurate TWD and TWA to call gybe angles and to a lesser extent make sail selections. Or at least have Expedition do that for me...I just sanity check its output.

 

Also pretty important to ensure you have good set and drift numbers. Sea temp is a useful thing but it's a bit of a blunt instrument.

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I only have experience of an older pogo with a now dated hull shape (pogo 8.50) but I suspect that you could do with your crew more forward than on the photo. I would basically have everybody apart the helm and a trim guy sitting between the 2 guys in white on the rail on the photo, you can even have 2 of them having a rest in the forepeak. YMMV

G'day Pano,

Yep, you're right, this is normal mode for light airs. More so, as the S2 hull shape is fuller in the bow sections.

pogo1_zpsbhq0y0nr.jpg

It defintely makes a difference

pogo2_zpshr1tql8j.jpg

 

 

Good to know that my knowledge isn't completely obsolete! Yes, when you bring weight forward, it literally changes the boat!

 

I was close to Pogo land last week (Port La Foret) and there were 2 pogo 50 on the hard, I thought about you.

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G'day SViW,

Thanks, the slalom concept is a good one.

When we get a big surf, I'll press deep, but we still have the kite trimmer grinding like mad as the apparent shoots forward, then the guy on the sheet eases as we fall off.

If I followed the slalom concept to the letter of perfection, theoretically you wouldn't grind or ease at all, the helm should do it all by pressing and hotting up as the boat speed increases and decreases. Thought: would it be reasonable to expect you till need to be sheeting on and easing due to the increase in wind speed, even if you are a red hot helm? I hope so, as I've always needed it to date! :ph34r:

 

I get what you are saying regards the new kite, but the intent is predominantly to get the boat moving when we're really off the pace, which is really light airs and deep running. At that point the awa is definitely not well forward, so I would have thought a flatter Code 0 wouldn't help me as much. The Pogo is actually surprisingly much better in light airs to windward than it is dead downwind, hence the sail choice, Maybe I have done it a disservice in how I've described the new kite, it can run hotter than I'm describing, the boys were holding it at 110-120 twa no probs. I cannot believe it was the fastest VMC at those angles though as it has a lot of belly, but it certainly keeps shape and feels fine.I need to look at that though, this was only our first outing with it.

In the perfect world, I would absolutely have both, a Code 0 is actually the next sail when I save my pennies.

Thanks for the input!

 

Edit: This comment" The Pogo is actually surprisingly much better in light airs to windward than it is dead downwind" may be my fault. When we're close hauled to windward in light airs, I have the whole crew forward and leeward to clear the big fat arse out of the water.
I just realised I am less focused on this when running deep. Hence this could be my weight positioning of the crew, not the fault of the boat.

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G'day DD,

That makes a lot of sense. I understand why apparent is cleaner data, but I think I got hung up on true, as I often reference to TWD.

I'm bringing the boat home on Tuesday, I'll switch my polars to awa and try it.

Thanks mate, that's great advice.

SB

 

I have taught quite a few folks how to drive to asso's in sport boats and without a doubt getting them in the groove downhill I had them go to AWA. Fact is you are apparent wind sailing. It sounds like you are snake waking all over the place which is kinda normal. What you are looking to do is continue the snake wake just in way smaller proportions. AWA sailing will help. Hell just knowing the wind needs to be forward of the beam most of the time and way forward in the light is quite enlightening to most new to asso's. Most people new to this tend to fall off the cliff boat speed wise sailing too low and then chasing it way the hell up trying to build speed again to get back to the target. Not only is this slow the trimmers are now all screwed up chasing you around. The light comes on when you realize that you have to slalom through the puffs and lulls to maintain the speed with very little change in trim. AWA sailing will help big time with this.

 

One thing that bothers me from your post above you state you just got a new light air deep runner. This is like the exact sail you dont need. Your light air kite should almost code zero flat as your AWA target is well forward of the beam. In your case if the polars on your bulkhead are correct (they look dumbed down to me for this exorcise too many even numbers) under ten knots your AWA should be 74-75 degrees and not come aft till 10 knots. While i know your boat is not really a sport boat with the extreme angles that come with a super light boat its still similar and probably even more important to get on top of the AWA because you will take a pretty big swing aft in a narrow range in the 10-12 and on up

Turd the only thing you have ever taught anyone is how to act like a cunt on the Internet. Shaggy ignore this troll.

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G'day DD,

That makes a lot of sense. I understand why apparent is cleaner data, but I think I got hung up on true, as I often reference to TWD.

I'm bringing the boat home on Tuesday, I'll switch my polars to awa and try it.

Thanks mate, that's great advice.

SB

I have taught quite a few folks how to drive to asso's in sport boats and without a doubt getting them in the groove downhill I had them go to AWA. Fact is you are apparent wind sailing. It sounds like you are snake waking all over the place which is kinda normal. What you are looking to do is continue the snake wake just in way smaller proportions. AWA sailing will help. Hell just knowing the wind needs to be forward of the beam most of the time and way forward in the light is quite enlightening to most new to asso's. Most people new to this tend to fall off the cliff boat speed wise sailing too low and then chasing it way the hell up trying to build speed again to get back to the target. Not only is this slow the trimmers are now all screwed up chasing you around. The light comes on when you realize that you have to slalom through the puffs and lulls to maintain the speed with very little change in trim. AWA sailing will help big time with this.

 

One thing that bothers me from your post above you state you just got a new light air deep runner. This is like the exact sail you dont need. Your light air kite should almost code zero flat as your AWA target is well forward of the beam. In your case if the polars on your bulkhead are correct (they look dumbed down to me for this exorcise too many even numbers) under ten knots your AWA should be 74-75 degrees and not come aft till 10 knots. While i know your boat is not really a sport boat with the extreme angles that come with a super light boat its still similar and probably even more important to get on top of the AWA because you will take a pretty big swing aft in a narrow range in the 10-12 and on up

There is no way his light air kite should be code 0 flat. Light cloth yes, flatter yes, smaller yes but not code 0 flatter and smaller. This is a Pogo 40 we're talking about here, yes it's pretty fast but it's not an AWA monster than does 10 knots downwind in 8 knots of breeze.

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G'day DD,

That makes a lot of sense. I understand why apparent is cleaner data, but I think I got hung up on true, as I often reference to TWD.

I'm bringing the boat home on Tuesday, I'll switch my polars to awa and try it.

Thanks mate, that's great advice.

SB

I have taught quite a few folks how to drive to asso's in sport boats and without a doubt getting them in the groove downhill I had them go to AWA. Fact is you are apparent wind sailing. It sounds like you are snake waking all over the place which is kinda normal. What you are looking to do is continue the snake wake just in way smaller proportions. AWA sailing will help. Hell just knowing the wind needs to be forward of the beam most of the time and way forward in the light is quite enlightening to most new to asso's. Most people new to this tend to fall off the cliff boat speed wise sailing too low and then chasing it way the hell up trying to build speed again to get back to the target. Not only is this slow the trimmers are now all screwed up chasing you around. The light comes on when you realize that you have to slalom through the puffs and lulls to maintain the speed with very little change in trim. AWA sailing will help big time with this.

 

One thing that bothers me from your post above you state you just got a new light air deep runner. This is like the exact sail you dont need. Your light air kite should almost code zero flat as your AWA target is well forward of the beam. In your case if the polars on your bulkhead are correct (they look dumbed down to me for this exorcise too many even numbers) under ten knots your AWA should be 74-75 degrees and not come aft till 10 knots. While i know your boat is not really a sport boat with the extreme angles that come with a super light boat its still similar and probably even more important to get on top of the AWA because you will take a pretty big swing aft in a narrow range in the 10-12 and on up

There is no way his light air kite should be code 0 flat. Light cloth yes, flatter yes, smaller yes but not code 0 flatter and smaller. This is a Pogo 40 we're talking about here, yes it's pretty fast but it's not an AWA monster than does 10 knots downwind in 8 knots of breeze.

Trust me girls the sailmaker who made the kite has more experience than everyone posting on this thread put together (apart from DD).

He builds sails for the program not just the boat. To quote DD, 'build speed and soak.'

Yep.

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The kite is great. Does exactly what Shaggy asked for & you can heat it up a lot more than you would think (if you wanted to) It's something like 20% bigger - Clipper ships didn't carry all that area to look pretty yo'.

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SVW is making sense here.

 

However the boat had a dirty arse. I raced an identical boat to mine once when the bottom was not clean and the other one was. Seemed like we were in different classes even though I had the boat cleaned at the dock. Seriously, sails and sailing techniques are all affected by the drag on the hull.

 

If it was not squeeky clean then it was not race ready and expecting the polars to work is unreasonable.

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Unfortunately in my opinion the lack of a masthead sail is what is affecting things, because the main is square topped the girth of the main at the head of the kite is much greater it will have a greater effect on the spinnaker, had you considered masthead reinforcement? It's weight in all the wrong places but it's another option to consider. My second option to you is a bit out there but here goes, a spinnaker pole! Some early gen 1 class 40s carried long spinnaker poles to bring the tack of their big runners further to windward to gain separation from the main, obviously this will carry a rating penalty but it could be worth it. Even a Ker 40 tried one a few years back. I think being able to aim for numbers then slowly bring the tack to windward may allow you to carry your speed better

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Shaggy you might want to consider changing your approach from sailing TWA to sailing AWA downwind.

 

My current ride is renowned for being fast to its polars and rating downwind, and the core of the same crew sails a couple, of other boats which are similarly fast downwind. We sail pretty much as you do, hunt speed then soak. The difference is that we sail to AWA and boatspeed targets, not TWA. We find AWA superior to TWA as it is typically read straight off the MHU. AWA is less damped, less processed and way, way less subject to calibration errors than TWA and hence the crew is far less dependent on the calibrations being good if they are sailing to AWA.

 

 

 

I don't know about the NKE instruments on Shaggy's boat

 

but B&G 3000 - a pretty common race boat instrument system - do not work that way

 

AWA as displayed by the instruments, does not come directly from what's read at the mast head by the sensor

 

as back-asswards as it seems.., B&G first calculates TWA, TWS and TWD, and then "back calculates" AWA and AWS from the true wind numbers

 

thus, any error in the true wind numbers gets propagated to apparent wind numbers, and they're not any better than the true wind numbers

 

clearly, from reading Shaggy's description, he has some basic calibration to do before we can know how he is doing relative to his targets.

 

not only would i check all the wind calibrations.., but i would start with the compass.., and then move to the boatspeed. in particular, on a fast-ish boat, it's important to know that BSP is correct across the full range of boatspeeds that the boat will hit. almost always.., if you calibrate BSP at motoring speeds - say around 7kts.., but then sail at 10-15 kts, the the BSP calculated is too fast - you usually need to apply negative corrections in the BSP calibration table for those higher boat speeds

 

with respect to achieving polars - where did these polars come from? designer polars are frequently optimistic..,

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I think there's a UK based Pogo 12.50 which has added check stays and a mast head spin halyard to allow them to run bigger kites. I recall they did the Transat race from Newport a couple of years ago.

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Shaggy you might want to consider changing your approach from sailing TWA to sailing AWA downwind.

 

My current ride is renowned for being fast to its polars and rating downwind, and the core of the same crew sails a couple, of other boats which are similarly fast downwind. We sail pretty much as you do, hunt speed then soak. The difference is that we sail to AWA and boatspeed targets, not TWA. We find AWA superior to TWA as it is typically read straight off the MHU. AWA is less damped, less processed and way, way less subject to calibration errors than TWA and hence the crew is far less dependent on the calibrations being good if they are sailing to AWA.

 

I don't know about the NKE instruments on Shaggy's boat

 

on a fast-ish boat, it's important to know that BSP is correct across the full range of boatspeeds that the boat will hit. almost always.., if you calibrate BSP at motoring speeds - say around 7kts.., but then sail at 10-15 kts, the the BSP calculated is too fast - you usually need to apply negative corrections in the BSP calibration table for those higher boat speeds

As far as I know NKE only has a single boat speed calibration parameter. (Which I'm stil fine tuning after 2 years, don't know if that's normal).

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Geert - I'm surprised if that is the case..., but as i said, i don't know NKE

 

perhaps it's dependent on what level processor you have - i am pretty sure that NKE has a "race" processor or something, and if i recall it's really expensive, more than the H3000 Hercules Performance level processor was

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Unfortunately in my opinion the lack of a masthead sail is what is affecting things, because the main is square topped the girth of the main at the head of the kite is much greater it will have a greater effect on the spinnaker, had you considered masthead reinforcement? It's weight in all the wrong places but it's another option to consider. My second option to you is a bit out there but here goes, a spinnaker pole! Some early gen 1 class 40s carried long spinnaker poles to bring the tack of their big runners further to windward to gain separation from the main, obviously this will carry a rating penalty but it could be worth it. Even a Ker 40 tried one a few years back. I think being able to aim for numbers then slowly bring the tack to windward may allow you to carry your speed better

 

Maybe but the problem with a fat-assed boat like the Pogo 12.50 is that using a pole and sailing square-ish and level downwind means huge amounts of wetted surface, sailing hot and heeled is very possibly faster in VMG terms as there's likely to be less hull in the water.

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Shaggy you might want to consider changing your approach from sailing TWA to sailing AWA downwind.

 

My current ride is renowned for being fast to its polars and rating downwind, and the core of the same crew sails a couple, of other boats which are similarly fast downwind. We sail pretty much as you do, hunt speed then soak. The difference is that we sail to AWA and boatspeed targets, not TWA. We find AWA superior to TWA as it is typically read straight off the MHU. AWA is less damped, less processed and way, way less subject to calibration errors than TWA and hence the crew is far less dependent on the calibrations being good if they are sailing to AWA.

 

 

 

I don't know about the NKE instruments on Shaggy's boat

 

but B&G 3000 - a pretty common race boat instrument system - do not work that way

 

AWA as displayed by the instruments, does not come directly from what's read at the mast head by the sensor

 

as back-asswards as it seems.., B&G first calculates TWA, TWS and TWD, and then "back calculates" AWA and AWS from the true wind numbers

 

thus, any error in the true wind numbers gets propagated to apparent wind numbers, and they're not any better than the true wind numbers

 

clearly, from reading Shaggy's description, he has some basic calibration to do before we can know how he is doing relative to his targets.

 

not only would i check all the wind calibrations.., but i would start with the compass.., and then move to the boatspeed. in particular, on a fast-ish boat, it's important to know that BSP is correct across the full range of boatspeeds that the boat will hit. almost always.., if you calibrate BSP at motoring speeds - say around 7kts.., but then sail at 10-15 kts, the the BSP calculated is too fast - you usually need to apply negative corrections in the BSP calibration table for those higher boat speeds

 

with respect to achieving polars - where did these polars come from? designer polars are frequently optimistic..,

 

I'm not familiar with H3000 but I know on earlier B&G systems the AW numbers are direct from the sensors. My ride uses H2000 and certainly the AWA and AWS numbers aren't back calculated. I do recall hearing that H3000 does it differently however. Can't imagine why, would be good to know.

 

Indeed if the NKE setup works like H3000 then the order in which things need to be calibrated would probably change.

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Can't imagine why, would be good to know.

 

i've never gotten a satisfactory answer to that question...

 

the manual just says that's how they do it...

 

B&G does give you the option to view "MWA", or measured wind angle.., which ( i am pretty sure) is the raw measured AWA, +/- whatever you have entered as the fixed offset angle to account for the wind instrument not being exactly parallel to the boat.

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Unfortunately in my opinion the lack of a masthead sail is what is affecting things, because the main is square topped the girth of the main at the head of the kite is much greater it will have a greater effect on the spinnaker, had you considered masthead reinforcement? It's weight in all the wrong places but it's another option to consider. My second option to you is a bit out there but here goes, a spinnaker pole! Some early gen 1 class 40s carried long spinnaker poles to bring the tack of their big runners further to windward to gain separation from the main, obviously this will carry a rating penalty but it could be worth it. Even a Ker 40 tried one a few years back. I think being able to aim for numbers then slowly bring the tack to windward may allow you to carry your speed better

 

Hi JL,

We did look into mast reinforcement, but on mine it was a flat no. even with runners it's not designed for rmastheads.

Regards the pole, I thought of that at the build, it was a toss up, and I wrongly elected not to bother. A pole would have been interesting, when cruising in heavy airs once we'd just goosewinged the headsail and she flew. Unsure if ZSpars would let me just mount one post build, I'd need to check.

 

I think there's a UK based Pogo 12.50 which has added check stays and a mast head spin halyard to allow them to run bigger kites. I recall they did the Transat race from Newport a couple of years ago.

 

Dragon, that's a first for me, didn't know of any with mastheads. I'll have to find out what they did differently!

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I think there's a UK based Pogo 12.50 which has added check stays and a mast head spin halyard to allow them to run bigger kites. I recall they did the Transat race from Newport a couple of years ago.

 

That boat has an optional, taller, class 40 racing mast with runners.

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Unfortunately in my opinion the lack of a masthead sail is what is affecting things, because the main is square topped the girth of the main at the head of the kite is much greater it will have a greater effect on the spinnaker, had you considered masthead reinforcement? It's weight in all the wrong places but it's another option to consider. My second option to you is a bit out there but here goes, a spinnaker pole! Some early gen 1 class 40s carried long spinnaker poles to bring the tack of their big runners further to windward to gain separation from the main, obviously this will carry a rating penalty but it could be worth it. Even a Ker 40 tried one a few years back. I think being able to aim for numbers then slowly bring the tack to windward may allow you to carry your speed better

Hi JL,

We did look into mast reinforcement, but on mine it was a flat no. even with runners it's not designed for rmastheads.

Regards the pole, I thought of that at the build, it was a toss up, and I wrongly elected not to bother. A pole would have been interesting, when cruising in heavy airs once we'd just goosewinged the headsail and she flew. Unsure if ZSpars would let me just mount one post build, I'd need to check.

I think there's a UK based Pogo 12.50 which has added check stays and a mast head spin halyard to allow them to run bigger kites. I recall they did the Transat race from Newport a couple of years ago.

Dragon, that's a first for me, didn't know of any with mastheads. I'll have to find out what they did differently!

The pogo in question must be Jinja, former J122 owner. Here is a picture of his masthead during the ARC

post-42706-0-94778200-1493643682_thumb.png

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Unfortunately in my opinion the lack of a masthead sail is what is affecting things, because the main is square topped the girth of the main at the head of the kite is much greater it will have a greater effect on the spinnaker, had you considered masthead reinforcement? It's weight in all the wrong places but it's another option to consider. My second option to you is a bit out there but here goes, a spinnaker pole! Some early gen 1 class 40s carried long spinnaker poles to bring the tack of their big runners further to windward to gain separation from the main, obviously this will carry a rating penalty but it could be worth it. Even a Ker 40 tried one a few years back. I think being able to aim for numbers then slowly bring the tack to windward may allow you to carry your speed better

Hi JL,

We did look into mast reinforcement, but on mine it was a flat no. even with runners it's not designed for rmastheads.

Regards the pole, I thought of that at the build, it was a toss up, and I wrongly elected not to bother. A pole would have been interesting, when cruising in heavy airs once we'd just goosewinged the headsail and she flew. Unsure if ZSpars would let me just mount one post build, I'd need to check.

I think there's a UK based Pogo 12.50 which has added check stays and a mast head spin halyard to allow them to run bigger kites. I recall they did the Transat race from Newport a couple of years ago.

Dragon, that's a first for me, didn't know of any with mastheads. I'll have to find out what they did differently!

The pogo in question must be Jinja, former J122 owner. Here is a picture of his masthead during the ARC

attachicon.gifIMG_3628.PNG

 

Yes, its Jinja, they have the taller racing mast with runners. Charly from Structures told me about it when i was inquiring about the 12.50.

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Found that email from Charly:
Hello,
Yes, the mast is higher about 1meter and lighter with the backstays, you can have a spinnaker of almost 200m² instead of the 142m² of the Pogo12.50
In attachment you can see a rigging and pictures of 2 Pogo12.50 racing version
I'm looking forward to hearing from you.
best regards

--
Charly Fernbach

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Shaggy's kite is already almost 200m2, it was made locally.

If it's that big on a short rig I'd be surprised if it sets at all well in the light. IIRC I heard that Ed Psaltis went from 175 to 205 on his Ker 40 a while back only to find it was faster VMG running in the light with the smaller kites. Obviously the big ones were faster once they filled properly however.

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Shaggy's kite is already almost 200m2, it was made locally.

If it's that big on a short rig I'd be surprised if it sets at all well in the light. IIRC I heard that Ed Psaltis went from 175 to 205 on his Ker 40 a while back only to find it was faster VMG running in the light with the smaller kites. Obviously the big ones were faster once they filled properly however.

Hi DD, the new light air kite is the green kite we are flying in Shaggy's post up the top, Shaggy can confirm m2. By all accounts it's an amazing bit of kit. As LB15 said, the sailmaker has been around the block once or twice & knows his stuff.

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