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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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6 minutes ago, Potter said:

Dee is running first crew sail trials starting next week. Then a short break as she has a prior commitment, then trial 2 and 3 to end up in UK. Fastnet, then leg 0. Then all the boats have a refit period prior to being in Alicante. 

During the refit period the later teams will all be ensuring the crews have all the safety, first aid, and sailing qualifications.

 

I have the safety training, FYI.   :):):):)

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56 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

I'm not curious about where the announced team boats are right now. They have a tight schedule before the race and my thought was that the crews will be exhausted before the race even starts...I'm more curious about crew names and if there will be more teams :) 

I agree the real interest right now is not the boats or where they are. It is the people who will take part. Especially who will actually sail in Dee's crew? how experienced? (all these "under 30s"), and how and when they will gain the necessary experience and expertise to sail this RTW race reasonably safely in the very short time which remains. (Just think about what a VG sailor has to do to qualify him/herself and the boat.) The difficulty of the task Dee has taken on should not be underestimated.  The event may have descended into a dog and pony show, but it is not going to be a walk in the park.

The fact that Volvo had to get Dee to enter a team and she hasn't yet got a crew to name just proves the race didn't get enough entries, and how important women now are to the race and that the "positive discrimination" plan didn't work.

I reckon the absence of news is just a symptom of the failure of the event to attract real serious competitors (opinions why may vary!) and VOR is struggling to get anything firm to announce. What sense would it make to be keeping secrets so close to the start? The time left now before the actual VOR race start is too short for any team not already fully up and running.

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4 hours ago, staysail said:

I agree the real interest right now is not the boats or where they are. It is the people who will take part. Especially who will actually sail in Dee's crew? how experienced? (all these "under 30s"), and how and when they will gain the necessary experience and expertise to sail this RTW race reasonably safely in the very short time which remains. (Just think about what a VG sailor has to do to qualify him/herself and the boat.) The difficulty of the task Dee has taken on should not be underestimated.  The event may have descended into a dog and pony show, but it is not going to be a walk in the park.

The fact that Volvo had to get Dee to enter a team and she hasn't yet got a crew to name just proves the race didn't get enough entries, and how important women now are to the race and that the "positive discrimination" plan didn't work.

I reckon the absence of news is just a symptom of the failure of the event to attract real serious competitors (opinions why may vary!) and VOR is struggling to get anything firm to announce. What sense would it make to be keeping secrets so close to the start? The time left now before the actual VOR race start is too short for any team not already fully up and running.

you should clearly be a team CEO with your knowledge!

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Dee said in the WISP interview that there will be 4 old timers and 6 under 30 on the boat. Both age groups evenly split into male and female.
Switching crew between legs will be a thing, certainly for the under 30 division. A fun experience and competitive against the other teams is a tall order.

Lots of spots to fill and little time left. :) I wonder if she'll take a page out of Charles playbook and adds single handed / generalist sailors into the mix. Not that there are that many old timer slots. Cheat and add Alan Roura? [Who has other commitments in the IMOCA class.]

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Given Dee's past, I'd be surprised if she didn't add those types of sailors.  I'd also like to see some champion one-design crew involved, and I know a couple of under 30s that would work.

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According to Marine Traffic, Team Akzonobel is making 13 kts heading 316 off the coast of the Netherlands or as soem would say, the north sea.  Mapfre is doing 10 kts heading due north.  Dongfeng is parked in Lorient and Vestas 11th hour is parked in Portsmouth as of 5/27/2017.  Brunel, as of June 6th is outside Lisbon.

Those are the one's I followed and have been getting marine traffic reports since the end of the race.  Brunel and Dongfeng did some work down in the Caribbean last year.

I'm tempted to pay the premium package so I can follow all the fleet, not just five.

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7 hours ago, Potter said:

Dee is running first crew sail trials starting next week. Then a short break as she has a prior commitment, then trial 2 and 3 to end up in UK. Fastnet, then leg 0. Then all the boats have a refit period prior to being in Alicante. 

During the refit period the later teams will all be ensuring the crews have all the safety, first aid, and sailing qualifications.

 

glad she's able to keep her 'prior commitment'.  very much looking forward to it.

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

you should clearly be a team CEO with your knowledge!

You just can't resist it can you Clean? Not quite given up yet?

More seriously I would be amused to know your opinions (or facts?) about what I wrote in my post.

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Staysail, do you not think that the winner of the last race was a forgone conclusion? This time it would be harder to pick. DFRT are back with a better budget and build up time, Akzo have got a really strong line up, Vestas too, Mapfre have more training time than last time. Scallywag are fairly unknown in VOR world, but have their own 100fter. 

Dee may be late, but is still earlier than some of the teams from the last edition. Why do you think 'Volvo had to get Dee to enter a team'? Do you not think that conversations have been going on slightly longer than 2 weeks? 

 

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2 hours ago, Potter said:

Why do you think 'Volvo had to get Dee to enter a team'?

 

I am well aware conversations of this kind have been going on for many months but I still reckon if Dee will be selecting quite a few uner 30's, depending on their experience with quite fast boats of this size, it would have been good to have much more time available to get a crew selected and to get them familiar with each other and with the boat to cover the situations they are likely to face during the RTW trip.  Don't think i have anything but respect and good wishes for Dee. I would really love to see her win this race.

I would be interested though, to hear your answer to your own question above. I think Volvo does desperately need a woman-run team, as that will for sure generate the most interest amongs the general public, and without one the event will really be rather boring. Dee will be the star!

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1 minute ago, staysail said:

I still reckon

The question is: why does "what you reckon" mean anything other than the ramblings of an old man?  You seem to know almost nothing less than nothing about these sailors, these events, or the way the industry works.  I mean no offense by that - but that's how it seems to those of us who do know more.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The question is: why does "what you reckon" mean anything other than the ramblings of an old man?  You seem to know almost nothing less than nothing about these sailors, these events, or the way the industry works.  I mean no offense by that - but that's how it seems to those of us who do know more.

 

 

I tend to find these types of arguments condescending and puerile.  "Well I know more than you so your thoughts have no value".  Maybe you do, but instead of looking down the nose, teach.  Those you think less of may become wiser.

I will admit, that is one long ass run on sentence, but if you boiled it down, SSail is making a valid point that the longer it took to make a decision to hire Dee to skipper (and by hire I mean she was handed a sponsor as I understand it) the shorter the time to get a crew ready.

Putting a bunch of under 30 sailors on board means she's going to be dealing with a bunch of inexperienced ocean sailors.  How did that turn out last race? (they got better over time)  On the other hand, Dee has been there done that.....multiple times.  She knows what is needed from her crew and certainly will focus attention to the weak areas and reinforce them in the time remaining. At the moment she's ahead of a couple of boats on crew selection and just imagine if they get boat #8 in the water....that crew will really be pressed on training time.  Early bet, Dee's team is going to come out swinging and be a contender.

 

Quote

I reckon the absence of news is just a symptom of the failure of the event to attract real serious competitors (opinions why may vary!) and VOR is struggling to get anything firm to announce.

I bet if VOR themselves made an announcement that they are looking for willing sailors to serve as potential crew on a VO65, the line would go around the block.  Sure, you need experienced skipper and navigator, but after that the experience can vary by wide margins.  There may be a lot of Sophies out there wanting a chance to race in the VOR.  It may even help Turner and the gang to just build a pool of potential sailors that teams can draw from.  They may find out that OD dinghy sailor with no ocean experience becomes a strong member just because of attitude, willingness to learn, and grit.  Look at Black on Dongfeng.

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35 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The question is: why does "what you reckon" mean anything other than the ramblings of an old man?  You seem to know almost nothing less than nothing about these sailors, these events, or the way the industry works.  I mean no offense by that - but that's how it seems to those of us who do know more.

 

 

Of course you mean to be offensive. Read your own post! Water off a ducks back though.

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14 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

I tend to find these types of arguments condescending and puerile.  "Well I know more than you so your thoughts have no value".  Maybe you do,

 .....and on the other hand, maybe he knows much less than he thinks he does.

(Thanks bucc)

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17 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

I tend to find these types of arguments condescending and puerile.  "Well I know more than you so your thoughts have no value".  Maybe you do, but instead of looking down the nose, teach.  Those you think less of may become wiser.

That's fine, and I value opinions, which is why I very rarely tell people 'you know shit so shut up'.  I read thousands of staysail's post before coming to this conclusion.  What bothers me is when people criticize, criticize, criticize without attempting to learn the context at all, and staysail just doesn't seem interesting in getting any.  

Dee has been working non-stop to get sponsors together since before the last race was over, to imply that she is somehow unprepared is just silly.

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7 minutes ago, staysail said:

 .....and on the other hand, maybe he knows much less than he thinks he does.

(Thanks bucc)

Like me or hate me, I do know a lot about this sport, spending upwards of six hours most every day reading, researching, and talking to the people who make this sport up.  I also spend 20 weeks a year at events doing the same thing but 16 hours a day.  

 

I'm not saying that makes my opinions more right than anyone else's, but I they are certainly more informed.  Again, I don't mind uninformed opinions, but unending and uninformed critique is a different story.

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

That's fine, and I value opinions, which is why I very rarely tell people 'you know shit so shut up'.  I read thousands of staysail's post before coming to this conclusion.  What bothers me is when people criticize, criticize, criticize without attempting to learn the context at all, and staysail just doesn't seem interesting in getting any.  

Dee has been working non-stop to get sponsors together since before the last race was over, to imply that she is somehow unprepared is just silly.

Indeed and it is a sad statement that she or the Magenta project could not cop a main sponsor, yet by the grace of VOR, she gets one.  I truly hope this dividend pays off for Mark and the third time around women skippers and sailors will be viewed as equal in capability and worthy of sponsorship.  I don't think anyone will question the idea that her team will get a lot of attention and the only thing that would supercede is a all female team or a second female skipper.

Looking back, I don't even see that SCA was technically "unprepared".  That implies Keystone copper type sailing.  They just needed the time to learn the boat and over the race time, it gelled.  The last boat, whomever it is will have the hardest time shaping a crew and male or female, Stay and others can comment on and hold their feet to the fire just as much as Dee's currently.

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The self (aka sponsor/message) imposed rules make it a bit harder for Dee. No real way to just call the list of guys and gals that she sailed with or against for years to create a team. Yet also a bit easier as choices were removed. 
We'll find out how unprepared/late Team Clean Seas actually is once the remaining teams are revealed. Do they need to recruit as well or will they announce with a basically full set of crew.

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Posted from Liz.

 

Quote

A couple of awesome weeks out of the shed sailing to Alicante and back! A bit of fresh air does wonders! @tommartienssen SoftScience Europe SoftScience, Inc. @julboeyewear #softscienceshoes #julboathlete @volvooceanrace

From her facebook page.  The picture is quite good at showing nothing that she is sailing, but with Dee in the house, you have to wonder.....She just delivers a boat with a "training" crew, VOR is opening the door for women to compete....hmmmmm....  

maybe it's the Dee and Wardley show (on the same boat) or we're getting teased that VOR may announce Liz getting a boat and we got a great sub-story to the race.

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

They just needed the time to learn the boat and over the race time, it gelled.

 

41 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

maybe it's the Dee and Wardley show (on the same boat)

Both very good points bucc and I don't think that Dee is that late. A lot to do absolutely, but she knows the boat, and has the time and the available miles and experience to get it done. And having Liz Wardley, who perhaps is the one woman who knows the most about the boat's equipment, could help. Pity Sophie is 32!  Grief, are there still so few experienced under 30 sailors out there?  And by experienced, I do not mean RTW racers. I'd take, and I did offshore, people with a basic knowledge of sailing dynamics, good balance, enthusiasm and strong stomachs. In my opinion, pure enthusiasm is a significantly underestimated asset.  Enthusiastic people absorb training and acquire skills almost by osmosis.

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1 hour ago, Retired Sailor said:

 

Both very good points bucc and I don't think that Dee is that late. A lot to do absolutely, but she knows the boat, and has the time and the available miles and experience to get it done. And having Liz Wardley, who perhaps is the one woman who knows the most about the boat's equipment, could help. Pity Sophie is 32!  Grief, are there still so few experienced under 30 sailors out there?  And by experienced, I do not mean RTW racers. I'd take, and I did offshore, people with a basic knowledge of sailing dynamics, good balance, enthusiasm and strong stomachs. In my opinion, pure enthusiasm is a significantly underestimated asset.  Enthusiastic people absorb training and acquire skills almost by osmosis.

Enthusiasm doesn't win the Figaro Solitaire, and it wont win the VOR either. Expertise in spades and experience is what's needed to have a chance of winning important sailing events.
The SCA crew were not exactly inexperienced as racing sailors (indeed they were all experts in their fields, but quite a few of them didn't previously have extensive ocean racing experience in fast biggish offwind boats) and even with a very long time spent in selection and training based in Lanzarote, it was still undeniable that that crew could not sail that boat to the same potential as other much more experienced crews until the later stages of the event, by which time they had gained the necessary experiences. They said so themselves didn't they?
That is why people are interested to see who Dee selects and how she trains her crew and I doubt I am the only one to think she has a challenging task ahead of her. Clearly that will be easier if she manages to sign up people who have "done it" or very similar, before.
Sure there will be a huge list of keen enthusiastic applicants. That doesn't really make it much easier when time is not on your side. Looked at from the applicant point of view also, for experienced top level sailors, those that have a good job or project on the go will not have an easy decision if they are asked to abandon it for the chance of a VOR slot, especially seeing how the implied continuity which the SCA project offered never materialised. Do you drop the TJV to go for a trial on a VOR 65?
If Dee has managed to get a bunch of real experienced experts to "wait in the wings", knowing this "secret" VOR project existed, and was definitely a goer, that is a different scenario from the "selection starts now" one.
Forums like this are a fair place to hope for the occasional snippet of news, but it has been very thin gruel here from all those who claim to know so much.

 

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11 minutes ago, staysail said:

Enthusiasm doesn't win the Figaro Solitaire, and it wont win the VOR either. Expertise in spades and experience is what's needed to have a chance of winning important sailing events.

We aren't discussing the Figaro, were discussing the forthcoming VOR race, a crewed event, and don't tell Charles that he couldn't win the VOR with some relative rookies on board, he almost did the last time!! Black for one and several others, and one crewed in the successful delivery of the boat to Itajai short handed, albeit a combination of motor/sailing, but with limited fuel and sails!

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Preparation and training time, getting to know one each other, time has run out to plug the last spots blah blah blah. You guys need to get out more. There is a plethora of people in the sailing world who can jump on a 65 a week out from race day and make it work. Remember this is OD plug and play. While they might not have it going at 100% at the front end, it would be close enough to stay in the hunt.

The time to find sponsors, train and extract their effort (cash) is the window that is closes fast. I suspect Volvo have one or two on the hook but with the eye on the clock each is waiting for the other to blink at the negotiating table. 

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12 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

That's fine, and I value opinions, which is why I very rarely tell people 'you know shit so shut up'.  I read thousands of staysail's post before coming to this conclusion.  What bothers me is when people criticize, criticize, criticize without attempting to learn the context at all, and staysail just doesn't seem interesting in getting any.  

Dee has been working non-stop to get sponsors together since before the last race was over, to imply that she is somehow unprepared is just silly.

Yes. Staysail just needs to support his personal views of women being weaker than men. This is why he wants a female team or skipper, he simply finds it interesting to see how a weak woman can do against the stronger men. Never forget this, if you read his postings and he tries to present himself as a supporter of women in sailing. He might believe that he is, but he's the most condescending you can find. 

 

How anyone can look at Dee and think she's weaker than any of the men involved, I cannot understand. It's unbelievably patronizing. He will hope that she wins because he thinks she is weak. What a great fan. 

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1 hour ago, NORBowGirl said:

Yes. Staysail just needs to support his personal views of women being weaker than men. This is why he wants a female team or skipper, he simply finds it interesting to see how a weak woman can do against the stronger men. Never forget this, if you read his postings and he tries to present himself as a supporter of women in sailing. He might believe that he is, but he's the most condescending you can find. 

 

How anyone can look at Dee and think she's weaker than any of the men involved, I cannot understand. It's unbelievably patronizing. He will hope that she wins because he thinks she is weak. What a great fan. 

Sums it up perfectly, well said. 

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1 hour ago, NORBowGirl said:

Yes. Staysail just needs to support his personal views of women being weaker than men. This is why he wants a female team or skipper, he simply finds it interesting to see how a weak woman can do against the stronger men. Never forget this, if you read his postings and he tries to present himself as a supporter of women in sailing. He might believe that he is, but he's the most condescending you can find. 

 

How anyone can look at Dee and think she's weaker than any of the men involved, I cannot understand. It's unbelievably patronizing. He will hope that she wins because he thinks she is weak. What a great fan. 

thx.  I imagine we could put Dee and staysail in a gym together and see who deadlifts more ;)

 

 

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This bitchfight (no pun intented) which is going on between the various posters for some time now in this thread is getting boring. Can you guys and girls please start a new pissing contest thread and piss each other off there? Thank you very much for growing up and for not spoiling this thread any further. And yes I know it's SA but is still grow the fuck up! Get on topic FFS. Or hand the popcorn. Did I mention Hitler?

advice-borat-massive-bitch-fight-going-on-are-you-not-entertained.jpg

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Are there any suitable AC sailors that will be available shortly?

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I think Dee will lead a more competitive team than SCA was last time around. 

People don't realize how inexperienced that team was. The team was built with very very talented and experienced sailors, but fewer ocean race/round the world experience. They won multiple in Port events, even though their individual crew muscular strength was weaker, so obviously their best knew how to sail fast and work together. They won one of the tougher legs upwind bashing via a risky route - Libby's first VOR and she clearly often saw things others didn't but also made some mistakes that others didn't. 

In general I recall they matched speed very well, problem was when they lost contact, their position would drop. Usually when the more experienced crew were resting. 

Do people remember Dong Feng? They had several Chinese crews that had good enthusiasm to do bow work and whatever else was needed, but didn't have a clue about sail trimming, what a Chinese gybe was, etc.

I think Dees team will do fine, provided they have a critical mass of experience to lead young strong enthusiastic crew. It's much harder when the pyramid (exp at the top) is very steep. 

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Turner has the 7th boat signed up, though I have no fucking idea who it is.  It is possible that it is ETNZ, though that is a bit of a wild ass guess.

 

 

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2 hours ago, JMOD said:

rumour has it that a dutch bald sailor will be doing the VOR again

Please be more specific, if you mean Bouwe, that rumor has been around for a while now. Question is as the skipper of Team Holland or the other missing boat, or as one of a "bunch of real experienced experts" as Staysail called them supporting someone else? Bouwe most certainly qualifies as a "real experienced expert', but as I said in an earlier post about Bouwe possibly supporting another team, it ultimately comes down to personal preference and personalities. But wouldn't a Dee-Bouwe team be fantastic? And yes Jack, I'm expecting a fantasy answer.

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10 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

thx.  I imagine we could put Dee and staysail in a gym together and see who deadlifts more ;)

 

 

So Clean reckons that a great performance at dealifting is an essential qualification for an ocean race winner. That's sure going to encourace the Ellen's of this world!

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Turner has the 7th boat signed up, though I have no fucking idea who it is.  It is possible that it is ETNZ, though that is a bit of a wild ass guess.

 

 

Be an interesting idea, how many offshore sailors do they have in the team pool?

Seems they are very much drawn from inshore and cup specific at the moment. 

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2 hours ago, staysail said:

So Clean reckons that a great performance at dealifting is an essential qualification for an ocean race winner. That's sure going to encourace the Ellen's of this world!

Ellen?  Where did she come into the conversation?

Keep in mind that ABN AMRO 2 crew George Peet, one of the best pro trimmers you'll find anywhere and a massively strong guy for his size, could not get a ride on a VOR to save his life despite racing and winning on some of the best offshore programs anywhere.  Why?  Because he's like 5'6" and 170 and no matter how much muscle he puts on or how lean he gets, he doesn't have the power of the guys who are 6'2 and 230.

Does offshore racing in crew-limited powerful boats make it tougher for smaller folks to get rides?  100%.  Not sure if there is a solution to that one.

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2 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

Please be more specific, if you mean Bouwe, that rumor has been around for a while now. Question is as the skipper of Team Holland or the other missing boat, or as one of a "bunch of real experienced experts" as Staysail called them supporting someone else? Bouwe most certainly qualifies as a "real experienced expert', but as I said in an earlier post about Bouwe possibly supporting another team, it ultimately comes down to personal preference and personalities. But wouldn't a Dee-Bouwe team be fantastic? And yes Jack, I'm expecting a fantasy answer.

I have learned a bit ago that it looks like the next entry to be announced will be Bouwe and the Canadian Ocean Racing Team in a joint program.  Two sources so far, but not enough specifics to really confirm.  Bouwe usually answers my emails in minutes and he hasn't answered the one I sent earlier yet, so that could be an answer in itself.  Or he's out sailing.  Emailed the woman who runs the CORT as well, will let you know what I find out.

 

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46 minutes ago, mad said:

Be an interesting idea, how many offshore sailors do they have in the team pool?

Seems they are very much drawn from inshore and cup specific at the moment. 

They have a big pile, and Nicho is still hanging about somewhere.  I've been tracking news of a Luna Rossa/ETNZ joint entry led by Alberto Bolzan and Patricio Bertelli's son Giulio...it's mostly my conjecture based on some odd little bits of news I've been getting, but Turner flat out said no.  Though he did think it was a great idea!

 

 

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3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I have learned a bit ago that it looks like the next entry to be announced will be Bouwe and the Canadian Ocean Racing Team in a joint program.

 

3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I've been tracking news of a Luna Rossa/ETNZ joint entry led by Alberto Bolzan and Patricio Bertelli's son Giulio..

Jack, wake up, Clean already came back with two fantasy answers!! Where are yours?

A Canadian Ocean Racing Team! I wish! As to LR/ETNZ, I am sure there are some on this forum that would wish that too!!

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Probably just(in) pretty boy spending more of our tax dollars to promote Canada's 150th birthday and pass those dollars to marketing firms.

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4 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

 

Does offshore racing in crew-limited powerful boats make it tougher for smaller folks to get rides?  100%.  Not sure if there is a solution to that one.

Why it is pretty hard to find top line boats north of 60' anymore that are not powered from day one or retrofitted. God knows how the smaller framed IMOCA guys do what they do.

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7 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Ellen?  Where did she come into the conversation?

Keep in mind that ABN AMRO 2 crew George Peet, one of the best pro trimmers you'll find anywhere and a massively strong guy for his size, could not get a ride on a VOR to save his life despite racing and winning on some of the best offshore programs anywhere.  Why?  Because he's like 5'6" and 170 and no matter how much muscle he puts on or how lean he gets, he doesn't have the power of the guys who are 6'2 and 230.

Does offshore racing in crew-limited powerful boats make it tougher for smaller folks to get rides?  100%.  Not sure if there is a solution to that one.

1. There is a very simple solution for the VOR which even you should be able to get your head round, and that is box rule boats and no limit to crew numbers. Do you think a skipper isn't capable of deciding how many crew he/she needs to sail a boat?
2. Why is there any more logic to a limit on crew numbers than there is to a limit on crew weight?
3. And to answer your question, with current rules and attitudes like yours, sure it makes it harder, and that seems to be what you like to see! But even with the attitudes of guys like you stacked against them, women can win in ocean sailing competition, and can do as well as men. Like SCA to Lorient, or are you saying that's a fluke? Like Ellen's RTW record and podium in the VG, like Justine in the Figaro. I expect you might weigh more than her but could you get in the top 10 in the Solitaire?
4. Sailing isn't, and shouln't be, a weightlifting contest. I find weightlifting a bit boring to watch and I don't want to see sailing get that boring.

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3 hours ago, staysail said:

1. There is a very simple solution for the VOR which even you should be able to get your head round, and that is box rule boats and no limit to crew numbers. Do you think a skipper isn't capable of deciding how many crew he/she needs to sail a boat?
2. Why is there any more logic to a limit on crew numbers than there is to a limit on crew weight?
3. And to answer your question, with current rules and attitudes like yours, sure it makes it harder, and that seems to be what you like to see! But even with the attitudes of guys like you stacked against them, women can win in ocean sailing competition, and can do as well as men. Like SCA to Lorient, or are you saying that's a fluke? Like Ellen's RTW record and podium in the VG, like Justine in the Figaro. I expect you might weigh more than her but could you get in the top 10 in the Solitaire?
4. Sailing isn't, and shouln't be, a weightlifting contest. I find weightlifting a bit boring to watch and I don't want to see sailing get that boring.

There are far easier solutions than that.  Ban the stack, for one.  Or just go big multihulls with only 4 sails.  Either move gets you smaller people.

It's a good discussion - whether to limit via crew number or weight.  I'll ask the CEO what he thinks when I see him later.

 

Actually, staysail or anyone else - if you want to get some questions answered by Turner, post them here.  If they're intelligent, I'll ask and post the interview later. 

 

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8 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Interesting video.

This would be a great addition, if true, and now that's two teams to cheer for.  I also think it's a hoot to consider two old AC teams hooking up to play in something that is 180 degrees from their past.  Luna Rosa, a name not heard by me since Paul Cayard learned some Italian and played off the west coast of the US.

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Bouwe just told me "you know i love you but if you post that you will look like an idiot"

 

In other words, it is not the Bouwe and Meg show.  Damn! If I wasn't so balls deep in this AC right now I'd start digging

 

 

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9 hours ago, staysail said:

1. There is a very simple solution for the VOR which even you should be able to get your head round, and that is box rule boats and no limit to crew numbers. Do you think a skipper isn't capable of deciding how many crew he/she needs to sail a boat?
2. Why is there any more logic to a limit on crew numbers than there is to a limit on crew weight?
3. And to answer your question, with current rules and attitudes like yours, sure it makes it harder, and that seems to be what you like to see! But even with the attitudes of guys like you stacked against them, women can win in ocean sailing competition, and can do as well as men. Like SCA to Lorient, or are you saying that's a fluke? Like Ellen's RTW record and podium in the VG, like Justine in the Figaro. I expect you might weigh more than her but could you get in the top 10 in the Solitaire?
4. Sailing isn't, and shouln't be, a weightlifting contest. I find weightlifting a bit boring to watch and I don't want to see sailing get that boring.

I agree sailing shouldn't be made more physical for its own sake, but I think the extra crews may not help - if I recall correctly SCA enjoyed an extra crew member per watch, and while it gave them the opportunity to continuously trim both sails, I don't think it ultimately made or broke them. I think Dee's team this time around will be much more successful because it isn't going to try and build a 100% female team. Lemme expand. 

I think women can be great - but we haven't given them the opportunity to catch up in experience. It made SCA watch captain's jobs much harder and skipper had higher burdens non stop. 

I prefer an interim quota because it encourages giving young women an opportunity to become experienced, with expectation that once we reach critical mass, hopefully we see enough talent that crew gender won't even be a statistic. 

So much of VOR is also about optimal navigation. Libby did a great job at times with bold decisions and def won the leg from Lisbon but it was her first and navigation is one of those things where you get better without needing to pump more iron. 

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4 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Bouwe just told me "you know i love you but if you post that you will look like an idiot"

 

In other words, it is not the Bouwe and Meg show.  Damn! If I wasn't so balls deep in this AC right now I'd start digging

 

 

Screw the AC...it's a hacked event that is losing viewers and money.  Get on the job about VOR stuff.  I read that Bertenelli thinks going back to monohulls is bad, but my response would be, and how well has foiling super cats been for the Corporate...cough...America's...Cup?  I think the idea of setting a stage for a monohulled, foiled AC boat would be fantastic.  Almost every major race is going foil assist and instead of the the "AC" being about some technological marvel that turns is not, it is about the things that made AC stand out.

Anyway, as to the VOR, I get a feeling we're going to get an announcement soon about crew selection and maybe a next skipper.  That is worth digging into and let's leave the cyclists to finish pedaling their way to victory (I do hope the corporation that is loosely representing New Zealand wins.  Fuck USA right now) and accept that it is not that news worthy.

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10 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Actually, staysail or anyone else - if you want to get some questions answered by Turner, post them here.  If they're intelligent, I'll ask and post the interview later. 

Okay Clean, one obvious question is: are Leg Zero and the Prologue Race both mandatory prequals or is there a choice of one or the other?

The next obvious one is: when are we going to get more information on teams, and crews rather than the drip feed we are getting at the moment?  We understand that there are circumstances that might be beyond his current control, but we may all drop off to sleep or have "shaken off this mortal coil" before either of the prequals or the real race even start. Many years ago there used to be a sign over the counter in the main Hong Kong post office that said something along the lines 'news from afar is like water to a thirsty traveler'. A very evocative message, particularly to me.  

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10 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

There are far easier solutions than that.  Ban the stack, for one.  Or just go big multihulls with only 4 sails.  Either move gets you smaller people.

It's a good discussion - whether to limit via crew number or weight.  I'll ask the CEO what he thinks when I see him later.

 

Actually, staysail or anyone else - if you want to get some questions answered by Turner, post them here.  If they're intelligent, I'll ask and post the interview later. 

 

Basically I would like to see as few rules as possible. I am not suggesting a crew weight limit rule, just pointing out that a crew number rule and boats designed specifically for big strong men disadvantages smaller individuals and of course, women. The fewer the rules the less the influence of "outsiders" like juries, and if you don't have a rule it can't be broken. Rules like banning stacking - how do you police that one? OK, its possible, but nobody wants a camera watching their every move 24/7.

If you sail in box rule boats with a boat-only weight limit and maybe an empty boat stability rule, then a team can sail with as many or as few people in the crew as they want and can design their boat, deck layout, gear, winches etc. to suit what they consider is an optimum number of crew. Depending on the weights and strengths of the crew, there must be an optimum number to sail with.

I really think the current one-design has had a very adverse effect.

I am open to the big multihull idea, but again for heavens sake not one-design! Why not a simple box rule for multihuls, also with just a stability criteria? To keep me interested for this kind of race at any rate, there needs to be development and technical interest in the boat design as well as top level sailing. One-design is fine when it comes to individual sailors proving their skills I still think the Figaro 2 is the best place to see that for offshore and it is cheap enough not to prevent young people with not much money from getting into the sport and proving what they can do.

My two questions for MT would be:

1. Why continue with one-design boats when they are boring and are killing innovation and are closing the door to all but your one selected designer?

2. Why do you think it is necessary to have any rule about crew numbers? Men, women, mixed crews, - even fit people come in all shapes and sizes - why can't the skipper and not the organiser decide how many to sail with?

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9 minutes ago, staysail said:

Basically I would like to see as few rules as possible. I am not suggesting a crew weight limit rule, just pointing out that a crew number rule and boats designed specifically for big strong men disadvantages smaller individuals and of course, women. The fewer the rules the less the influence of "outsiders" like juries, and if you don't have a rule it can't be broken. Rules like banning stacking - how do you police that one? OK, its possible, but nobody wants a camera watching their every move 24/7.

If you sail in box rule boats with a boat-only weight limit and maybe an empty boat stability rule, then a team can sail with as many or as few people in the crew as they want and can design their boat, deck layout, gear, winches etc. to suit what they consider is an optimum number of crew. Depending on the weights and strengths of the crew, there must be an optimum number to sail with.

I really think the current one-design has had a very adverse effect.

I am open to the big multihull idea, but again for heavens sake not one-design! Why not a simple box rule for multihuls, also with just a stability criteria? To keep me interested for this kind of race at any rate, there needs to be development and technical interest in the boat design as well as top level sailing. One-design is fine when it comes to individual sailors proving their skills I still think the Figaro 2 is the best place to see that for offshore and it is cheap enough not to prevent young people with not much money from getting into the sport and proving what they can do.

My two questions for MT would be:

1. Why continue with one-design boats when they are boring and are killing innovation and are closing the door to all but your one selected designer?

2. Why do you think it is necessary to have any rule about crew numbers? Men, women, mixed crews, - even fit people come in all shapes and sizes - why can't the skipper and not the organiser decide how many to sail with?

Sigh...you do make it hard......

1.  OD is here.  It is not going to go away.  Much like the POS Corporate Cup that thinks it's innovative with foiling Cats when they've ben around already and theyreally don't draw crowds.  We have our beefs.  If you want to bitch, bitch on why multi's for the in port  That is just plain stupid and no matter how Team Canada tries to sell it, it's stupid for a RTW race.

2. There are moments when you really need to come out from the 19th century.  Simply put, there is discrimination in professional sailing against women.  This sport has a good number of competent, capable women sailors and they are not selected, because the last bastion of swinging dicks seems to be sailboat racing.  I applaud MTs decision to set crew numbers based on female inclusion and I applaud Dongfeng for being the first to step up to the plate.  Same with Dee.  Sailing was a man thing, I'm guessing, because on a two year cruise, mend could not handle keeping it in their pants and the PTB figured keep women off the boat so we don't make babies.  Instead men refined the art of buggery.  It is simply shocking that the US Navy not only allows women as sailors, but they (gasp) get to be captains.  If Turner thinks by setting crew numbers based on gender may get more females involved...good on ya mate.

I just hope for one more boat, another female skipper and she throws a finger to the crowd and goes all female again.  I say this not because I think women are weak, but because I think women, when they get the opportunity, can show how they can kick butt with the best.

So my question. Mark, why do you not be more transparent in teams selection/building and would you please dear god not put multi-hulls in this race.  If the AC is any indication, you will not generate excitement and you may lose followers.  Race the boats they sail and stop being a child.

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bucc, sorry but you are the one who needs to be dragged into the present. If ocean racing one-design doesn't go away, the audience will!

I have just watched the start of the Bridge. 4 Ultimes versus the Queen Mary 2 to New York, It was fantastic and close to the biggest crowds I have ever encountered at any sailing event start. I was amazed. Just overhearing the crowd gossip also. These are families with children and, including the kids, they seem to know a whole lot about what and who they are watching. They are not just sightseeers out for a walk on a sunny Sunday afternoon. There is a genuine following here amongst the general public. The boats are all different. They are very fast (40 kts +) and they are hugely exciting both to sail and to watch. One-design would kill it off. These guys and the occasional gal like finding ways to get their boats going faster, not sticking at last year's pace, and the public likes to see the results. They are interested in the boats and in the sailors.

Big fast and different ocean racing multihulls are undeniably by far the most exciting things on the water today, and its going to be impossible to claim that anyhing else is anything like "Extreme" once the world public starts to understand these boats like the French do. You have to face up to it. Long distance ocean racing is already moving into the future and inevitably other things which will be seen as tame and boring by comparison, will be left behind.

The top sailors here are now sailing big trimarans, and the public like watching and following the careers of the top sailors.

I have no idea how it is all financed and organised, ROI etc. and to put it mildly organising a multi-stopover RTW race with these things would be "challenging" but there is no denying these things are capturing the public interest and imagination here and they are capable of drawing an incredibly huge crowd, and it makes the one-design VOR65 racing look pre-historic, and changing to a foiling one-design monohull, and having lots of finnicky rules, isn't going to be a long term answer.

 

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13 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

There are far easier solutions than that.  Ban the stack, for one.  Or just go big multihulls with only 4 sails.  Either move gets you smaller people.

It's a good discussion - whether to limit via crew number or weight.  I'll ask the CEO what he thinks when I see him later.

 

Actually, staysail or anyone else - if you want to get some questions answered by Turner, post them here.  If they're intelligent, I'll ask and post the interview later. 

 

How would you ban or police the moving of the stack on the current boats, or any similar monohull?

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4 hours ago, mad said:

How would you ban or police the moving of the stack on the current boats, or any similar monohull?

I don't think stacking should be policed but in VOR there's so much media gear 24/7 on deck you won't be able to hide the stack. They can also review the tapes, setup a time lapse capture that gets reviewed. 

 

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8 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

 Get on the job about VOR stuff.  

If you are my new boss, I would like a raise

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4 hours ago, mad said:

How would you ban or police the moving of the stack on the current boats, or any similar monohull?

They have cameras that stream back to base.  

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Why don't you try to find Nico in Bermuda and ask him wazzup. 

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Policing of rules has always been a curious question.  The media crew member is not allowed to do anything towards sailing the boat. How the heck do you expect that to be policed?  Especially in the earlier rounds when the media crew was actually a team member. Indeed there are a whole lot of rules about how the media person was supposed to operate.  And it changed from race to race as the rules were gamed. Media member became media-cook-cleaner. Now they are included in cooking and cleaning only so long as there is a fair rota and they do no more than other crew members. Good luck policing that.

Banning stacking is IMHO a good idea.  I have never really liked the whole mess.  It has always struck me as inelegant, and a wretched way to wring a tiny bit of extra performance out of a boat. They already have water ballast. Stacking is just an activity that once one boat is doing, everyone has to. It just ends up making every boat's crew's lives more miserable. It isn't sailing. Probably the only justification for allowing it, is the difficulty in policing it, and that is now much easier. There are lots of other rules that are explicitly intended to stop other forms of stacking. Heavy emergency equipment is required to be located on the centre line and has seals attached to ensure it isn't moved.

 

 

 

 

 

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Hell, I hope the AC is exciting, otherwise why am I constantly getting up at 3 am to watch it !!!!

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DIM it is certainly that on and off the water.

With the view that ETNZ's advantage is in controlling these skittery machines and keeping them flying particulary in light airs, I put out today a thought where on board control system development might head. That was it will be with software and electro/mechanical systems controlled by the brain and "thought".

Not that far fetched as it is already here in the prosthetics arena.

https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/features/robots-with-a-human-touch

I understand eight people in the world now have what they call a myoelectric prosthesis controlled by thought and it is now the subject of interest by the military. One of those eight is an Australian welder who actually constructed parts of his own mind controlled prosthetic arm.

After reading this post it may well cause the buccmeister to lose his mind entirely. 

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Dee is not going to win anything. She has a long track record at this. It is not a woman versus men thing it is a skill thing. Sure if I wanted a delivery skipper with excellent seafaring skills and knowledge then sure she would be first in line to skipper a superyacht. However if I wanted a winner then any of the prior VOR skippers who have succeeded have come from very different backgrounds but in all cases demonstrating a winning ability from a early age throughout various boat sizes. Boats need leaders and leaders have skills that everyone can respect. This is not project management in business where you can put the right boss in charge who knows little about the task but can form an effective team as in sailing this is taking 1 person off the team who is actually world class at what they do. Did Ian Walker last time when the boat was a bit slow on AIS hand down a command to the crew to make the boat go faster or did he strap on his boots and go and lead the process of evaluating the problem and then coming up with the solution until they were as fast or faster.

Dee has no Medals, no offshore wins such as Mini or Solitaire de Figaro so who believes that she has what it takes to wind this race even if we swapped the entire DFRT crew excluding helms with hers? Fuck I might pitch up to Mark Turner and say I will be the helm if it is just a people management exercise. It has nothing to do with deadlifting and more to do with being a world class competitive sailor with a track history of winning at whatever class they turn their hand to. Sailing round the world on your own in a steel boat with no competition does not cut it. How far was she behind Mike Golding by the Doldrums in a sister boat with plenty of preparation time and money before her mainsail started to deteriorate?

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On 24.6.2017 at 10:41 PM, staysail said:

So Clean reckons that a great performance at dealifting is an essential qualification for an ocean race winner. That's sure going to encourace the Ellen's of this world!

Are you suggesting that being strong requires, or will specially interest,  lesbians?

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2 hours ago, NORBowGirl said:

.....

You are really excelling in the deliberate misrepresentation stakes. Do you think you are achieving something?

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3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

DIM it is certainly that on and off the water.

With the view that ETNZ's advantage is in controlling these skittery machines and keeping them flying particulary in light airs, I put out today a thought where on board control system development might head. That was it will be with software and electro/mechanical systems controlled by the brain and "thought".

Not that far fetched as it is already here in the prosthetics arena.

https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/features/robots-with-a-human-touch

I understand eight people in the world now have what they call a myoelectric prosthesis controlled by thought and it is now the subject of interest by the military. One of those eight is an Australian welder who actually constructed parts of his own mind controlled prosthetic arm.

After reading this post it may well cause the buccmeister to lose his mind entirely. 

I lost that a long time ago.

Actually I think that is some amazing technology.  As a software developer who reads a lot of Scifi I'd say it's about time.

Now as to something like that on sailboat?  Why bother sailing then.  Just go VR.  Hell, with the computer models they have today, it owould not be all that hard to design a system where the boat is "sailed" in VR and broadcast to the adoring fans.  Why go through the expense of building the boat.  Couple your thought control with VR and the internet and not only do you save money, teams can be very creative creating their "World".

You might argue that modeling is on thing, but reality is something else.  Got it, but with the level of sophistication on board, what stops a team from just running it via remote control.  Two water wings zooming around with no crew on board.  Seriously Jack, how far do you want to take it.  You like to make fun of my Corinthian attitude, but at least it still means I believe in and have a passion for sailing, for actual hands on sailing not some techy shiny thing that can't sail in winds over 24 kts or mainly carries grunts on board,

If they perfect this thought control thing and apply it to sailing well then it will be fun watching remote control boats sail in flat water going very fast.  Yea for sailing.

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24 minutes ago, staysail said:

You are really excelling in the deliberate misrepresentation stakes. Do you think you are achieving something?

Well, Ellen is one of the worlds most famous lesbians so.....I just wanted to ask if that was what you meant. Not here to achieve much.

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17 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

I lost that a long time ago.

Actually I think that is some amazing technology.  As a software developer who reads a lot of Scifi I'd say it's about time.

Now as to something like that on sailboat?  Why bother sailing then.  Just go VR.  Hell, with the computer models they have today, it owould not be all that hard to design a system where the boat is "sailed" in VR and broadcast to the adoring fans.  Why go through the expense of building the boat.  Couple your thought control with VR and the internet and not only do you save money, teams can be very creative creating their "World".

You might argue that modeling is on thing, but reality is something else.  Got it, but with the level of sophistication on board, what stops a team from just running it via remote control.  Two water wings zooming around with no crew on board.  Seriously Jack, how far do you want to take it.  You like to make fun of my Corinthian attitude, but at least it still means I believe in and have a passion for sailing, for actual hands on sailing not some techy shiny thing that can't sail in winds over 24 kts or mainly carries grunts on board,

If they perfect this thought control thing and apply it to sailing well then it will be fun watching remote control boats sail in flat water going very fast.  Yea for sailing.

You don't get it do you?? These fuckers do 2X wind speed or closing speeds of up to 100k or 180 kmh and match racing and where essentially only 2/3  bodies at the back of the bus are driving, trimming and doing tactics. It has got nothing to do with virtual racing fool.

Remote control technology like this is there now but in button/paddle/pedal form in Bermuda right now and any improvement upon that actually allows them to get their head up out of the boat and eyes watching old school wise, just as you advocate, except they are not doing 8k in a clunker.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

Well, Ellen is one of the worlds most famous lesbians so.....I just wanted to ask if that was what you meant. Not here to achieve much.

WTF!?  Seriously I think her long term boyfriend would be a bit surprised to hear that.

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2 minutes ago, Potter said:

WTF!?  Seriously I think her long term boyfriend would be a bit surprised to hear that.

Her wife would also be surprised to hear that she has a boyfriend! :)

 

Seriously.....

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3 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

Her wife would also be surprised to hear that she has a boyfriend! :)

 

Seriously.....

Shows my finger is not on the pulse...

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

You don't get it do you?? These fuckers do 2X wind speed or closing speeds of up to 100k or 180 kmh and match racing and where essentially only 2/3  bodies at the back of the bus are driving, trimming and doing tactics. It has got nothing to do with virtual racing fool.

Remote control technology like this is there now but in button/paddle/pedal form in Bermuda right now and any improvement upon that actually allows them to get their head up out of the boat and eyes watching old school wise, just as you advocate, except they are not doing 8k in a clunker.

 

 

Nor do you and guess we could go on all day, on the wrong thread.  buttons, pedals... will you be happy when it's just a top gun style event with one fighter pilot in the back?  Because that is what I read you advocating.  What's the next technical leap Jack?  How many millions will be spend next time to eek out another couple of knots, if that. They pulled the hulls out of the water, created a wing, winglet rudders...size is not a leap forward so what we may get next time is just more buttons to push, less crew as they figure ways to power fly by wire.  It is astounding that the first thing you use as an argument is the most boring aspect of the whole event.

Hey, it's your thing, clearly not mine and I'd rather get back to prodding CLEAN or one of his minions to find some solid facts on what's going on with the VOR.  6 solid teams, do we have a 7th?  Can that really be that hidden a bit of news?

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9 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

They have cameras that stream back to base.  

A shame they didn't use them more effectively for better coverage last time round

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6 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

.. will you be happy when it's just a top gun style event with one fighter pilot in the back?  Because that is what I read you advocating.  

What is the colour of the sky in your world? Point exactly to where I advocate or even infer that??

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1 hour ago, NORBowGirl said:

Well, Ellen is one of the worlds most famous lesbians so.....I just wanted to ask if that was what you meant. Not here to achieve much.

https://pmcdeadline2.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/ellen_20110322192422.jpg

or?

http://www.ellenmacarthur.com/images/9.jpg

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6 minutes ago, mad said:

https://pmcdeadline2.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/ellen_20110322192422.jpg

or?

http://www.ellenmacarthur.com/images/9.jpg

Even here, the top Ellen must be the most famous :) I just thought it was funny in this context (muscles, stereotypes). 

Move along, nothing to see here :)

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2 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

Even here, the top Ellen must be the most famous :) I just thought it was funny in this context (muscles, stereotypes). 

Move along, nothing to see here :)

Not in the context of the thread :lol:

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

What is the colour of the sky in your world? Point exactly to where I advocate or even infer that??

Quote

With the view that ETNZ's advantage is in controlling these skittery machines and keeping them flying particulary in light airs, I put out today a thought where on board control system development might head. That was it will be with software and electro/mechanical systems controlled by the brain and "thought".

Quote

Remote control technology like this is there now but in button/paddle/pedal 

I raised it as a question and that you seem to not want to refute.  You are into speed, more speed more speed.  You extol the greatness of having only 2/3 people in the back so it is not hard to conjecture you'd be happy with even faster boats with less people on board.
 

Quote

These fuckers do 2X wind speed or closing speeds of up to 100k or 180 kmh and match racing and where essentially only 2/3  bodies at the back of the bus are driving, trimming and doing tactics.


Doctors are now, today, able to do remote operations so what's to stop the next step which is get rid of the human on board.  What do you want Jack, speed speed speed with a couple of programmers on board?

LIke I said, we differ.  Let's leave it at that.

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26 minutes ago, mad said:

Photo, (Short haired blond)

or?

Photo, (Short haired brunette)

I had never heard of that top one before, NBG. Had to look it up on Google! I had no idea what you were on about.

"Ellen", in a sailing context, is Ellen MacArthur, a succesful sailor who is not famed for weightlifting. I guess your faux pas was because you were not aware of Ellen MacArthur's sailing accomlishments?

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Bucc to make it clear. Would like to see cats being more stable using more advanced control  systems, particularly in lower wind ranges which equals closer competition and maybe marginally faster. Far from less people on board, want to see more doing something other than generating power. That should be clear enough for even you.

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4 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Bucc to make it clear. Would like to see cats being more stable using more advanced control  systems, particularly in lower wind ranges which equals closer competition and maybe marginally faster. Far from less people on board, want to see more doing something other than generating power. That should be clear enough for even you.

 

Are we talking about VOR? Cats don't belong in the latitudes and wind range so in VOR. 

Happy to discuss future of foiling cat or AC utilization of crews, but seems disconnected from VOR.

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13 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Bucc to make it clear. Would like to see cats being more stable using more advanced control  systems, particularly in lower wind ranges which equals closer competition and maybe marginally faster. Far from less people on board, want to see more doing something other than generating power. That should be clear enough for even you.

Works for me.  Now back to the VOR where we also don't see eye to eye, but at least it's about the VOR B)

All this commentary about lifting dead weight, can women handle it....come on.  If it takes longer then tack less.  If a lot of tacking will be required center it and figure out how to make the boat sail faster, even if sailing a point or two off VMG.  There are ways to work a problem without saying girls can't do it as equals.

Regarding the comments on Dee and her ability to put together a winning team

 

Quote

Caffari was the skipper of the yacht Imagine It. Done. One crewmember needed to be airlifted off in the Southern Ocean, creating the largest Southern Ocean Rescue of all time for the New Zealand Rescue Service. The race also saw the team develop from having to retire from the second leg of the race to finishing on the podium in leg six.

Having a medal does not prove value or skill as it translate into other venues.  She was on a VO65 that clearly should have gotten the most improved award as they nailed one leg in very tough conditions.  If there was anyone I'd want as skipper in the SO, it's Dee for her resume reeks of heavy weather and tough ocean experience.  She knows how to sail, she may have a slightly inexperienced crew, but with most under thirty, perhaps in better physical shape to take the relentless pounding they will get in the SO leg.  I think that when they get to that leg she'll have them tuned in and charging.  I doubt she's doing this just for publicity.  She wants to win and even if the starting conditions are not in her favor, she will make it work.

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1 hour ago, staysail said:

I had never heard of that top one before, NBG. Had to look it up on Google! I had no idea what you were on about.

"Ellen", in a sailing context, is Ellen MacArthur, a succesful sailor who is not famed for weightlifting. I guess your faux pas was because you were not aware of Ellen MacArthur's sailing accomlishments?

Nope, I've heard a lot about sailing Ellen, of course. My faux pas was that you knew that "The Ellens of the world" most often means lesbians. Nothing wrong with that, she seems like a nicer person than most. 

How did you feel when Google told you who she was? Did you find it a little bit funny, in this context? Pleeeeeease say yes :) 

 

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8 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

Nope, I've heard a lot about sailing Ellen, of course. My faux pas was that you knew that "The Ellens of the world" most often means lesbians. Nothing wrong with that, she seems like a nicer person than most. 

How did you feel when Google told you who she was? Did you find it a little bit funny, in this context? Pleeeeeease say yes :) 

 

Sorry but "No", but then I come from a generation when "gay" still had its original meaning.

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Well, now that the AC is over with very deserved success for ETNZ (knuckle biting at todays start unnecessary), can we please concentrate on the forthcoming VOR?

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9 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

Well, now that the AC is over with very deserved success for ETNZ (knuckle biting at todays start unnecessary), can we please concentrate on the forthcoming VOR?

Sorry :) (it's not me, it's her - she posted this one hour ago)

dee.PNG

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14 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Peter Burling rumoured to be considering going around next time subject to AC scheduling.

Now you're just making things up....sources?  The bodies not even dead yet on the AC (Great job NZ) and we're starting rumours? 

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11 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

Sorry :) (it's not me, it's her - she posted this one hour ago)

dee.PNG

Would that mean we're looking at her team?  Grrrrrr....this media dearth is frustrating.

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