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Francis, people have been sailing the world without engines for years and the rules simply don't cater for a system which can regenerate and store its own energy supply! Why are you so fixated on staying in the past?

Once you have exhausted your emergency gasoil you are stuffed.

With a re-generating motor and a battery you have an unlimited motoring range. Which one do you think is better and safer?

Do you really think the scenario where an intelligent group of people with a very easily driven but dismasted hull and all the things a VO65 carries cannot get it moving fast enough to generate less than 1% of the energy it takes to push it along at a displacement speed? Also, in non-racing mode don't forget the energy consumption would be an order of magnitude lower anyway.

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11 minutes ago, staysail said:

Francis, people have been sailing the world without engines for years and the rules simply don't cater for a system which can regenerate and store its own energy supply! Why are you so fixated on staying in the past?

If you can convince the ISAF that they should delete the requirement for 8 hours emergency motoring I might be more inclined to agree. It isn't me you have to convince.  Until the ISAF do delete this rule, or the VOR decide that they feel happy enough to ignore the ISAF rules, you are talking to the wind.

With a re-generating motor and a battery you have an unlimited motoring range. Which one do you think is better and safer?

Last time I looked, that is a perpetual motion machine. I don't think you are suggesting that they recharge the batteries from the forward motion of the boat when motoring under electric power, but if they are dismasted or becalmed that is what you said.

Be absolutely clear. Everything I wrote above is in order to meet the requirements for emergency motive power. The ISAF rules require 8 hours at 8 knots. It seems you don't think this is a useful safety rule.

For ordinary racing, I am quite comfortable with regenerated power and batteries.

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16 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

If you can convince the ISAF that they should delete the requirement for 8 hours emergency motoring I might be more inclined to agree. It isn't me you have to convince.  Until the ISAF do delete this rule, or the VOR decide that they feel happy enough to ignore the ISAF rules, you are talking to the wind.

 

 

Last time I looked, that is a perpetual motion machine. I don't think you are suggesting that they recharge the batteries from the forward motion of the boat when motoring under electric power, but if they are dismasted or becalmed that is what you said.

Be absolutely clear. Everything I wrote above is in order to meet the requirements for emergency motive power. The ISAF rules require 8 hours at 8 knots. It seems you don't think this is a useful safety rule.

For ordinary racing, I am quite comfortable with regenerated power and batteries.

Francis, with this remark about "perpetual motion machine" you are trivialising the issue rather than actually adressing it. This is your usual tactic when you want to avoid giving an answer to a reasonable question, and by now I have come to expect it, and it isn't clever. In my post, and previous ones which you have read, it was clear enough that I expect the crew to be able to get some kind of jury rig up. Most racing people do manage that.

I don't see that being able to motor the boat 64 miles, after which not only can you not motor any more, but you will also have exhausted your gasoil and so will lose your ability to desalinate water, as a huge safety feature if you are dismasted at a remote place in the worlds oceans! If you had any sense you would conserve your gasoil for watermaking purposes and to keep your comms alive so the motoring aspect of the rule is out of the window anyway as regards this race, simply because no one in their right mind is going to motor 64 miles.

So yes, I don't think the ISAF rule is particularly useful, and especially it is neither useful nor relevant to an electric powered raceboat.

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Tell you what, ask Ken Read. See if he would agree with you.  Like I said, part of the point of diesel is the ability to refuel at sea. You are not stuffed if you are within reach of a passing ship. And this isn't academic. We have experience with exactly scenario.

You seem to be happy to build a boat that will have maybe half an hour of motoring time, and then must generate power from its motion under jury rig.  MOB in heavy seas at night and you may as well not bother trying a rescue.

You need to provide a set of requirements. Then see what technology will meet them.

I strongly suggest that you start with requirements that include MOB at night in bad weather, nightime dismasting, as well as dismasting 1000 miles from land.

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24 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Tell you what, ask Ken Read. See if he would agree with you.  Like I said, part of the point of diesel is the ability to refuel at sea. You are not stuffed if you are within reach of a passing ship. And this isn't academic. We have experience with exactly scenario.

You seem to be happy to build a boat that will have maybe half an hour of motoring time, and then must generate power from its motion under jury rig.  MOB in heavy seas at night and you may as well not bother trying a rescue.

You need to provide a set of requirements. Then see what technology will meet them.

I strongly suggest that you start with requirements that include MOB at night in bad weather, nightime dismasting, as well as dismasting 1000 miles from land.

Francis, running this race, and probably all ocean races, without fossil fuel use is clearly a realistic (and for me desirable) prospect for the future but it will require positive attitudes from sailors (like Conrad Coleman for example).

I find it a bit depressing that so many so-called sailors have quite such negative attitudes and seem happy to be entirely reliant forever on gasoil to go sailing. Lots of things about the way we sail today will have to change but progress will never be made if people like yourself keep over-emphasising and distorting the problems.

For example in your post above, you choose not to give a realistic maximum motoring time which someone who is trying to be economical with his reserve will achieve. You give only the worst case, and still you avoid mention of the postitve aspect of being able to generate power whilst sailing under a jury rig, and still you, who obviously have the technical savvy to understand, choose not even to discuss what a tiny percentage of the boat's generating capability will actually be needed to sustain a crew in an emergency.

Despite acknowledging the technical possibilities, the overall impression conveyed by your posts is clearly entirely discouraging and you seem not at all keen that obstacles should be overcome. Rather you would sit back and accept the status quo. A bit sad really.

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4 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Tell you what, ask Ken Read. See if he would agree with you.

I have never met Ken Read. I looked him up on the web, Wikipedia and links about him from there. Not much of what I read suggests he would be the best qualified man to give an opinion on this subject. He certainly has sailing and racing experience but does he have the necessary know how on electrical and mechanical sciences as well as naval architecture? From what I read about him it seems most of his university time was spent sailboat racing after which he worked for a sailmaker (essentially selling sails) and his academic interests were in history and law.
One quote from him on the web during his Volvo racing days I think, "I was a history major in school, and I was taking a bunch of pre-law classes. That kind of flew by the boards. The marine world called. I work for Northern Sails, and am actually on a sabbatical to do this race. If not for sailing, I'd probably be a lawyer."

It would be interesting though, to know what his views are, given his high profile in sailing.

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You might explain how economical nurturing of reserves saves a sailor lost overboard at night in bad weather.

You simply don't get it. Everything I wrote is about having the reserve on board to address life threatening disasters. When planning for disaster you must assume a realistic worst case. That is the point. They are disasters.  I don't assume a dismasting occurs in daylight in champagne sailing conditions where the crew can whip up the kite and rip along at 10 knots in the sunshine.  I assume they are dismasted at night under conditions where it is impossible to get a jury rig up until daylight and the weather abates. Or they are more than 1000 miles from land. And the winds drops. Similarly I assume that a MOB happens at night in terrible weather, and the crew can only possibly reach the lost member if they drop the sails, and motor at full power, and probably need most of that power to battle headwinds and sea-state. Hans Horovets was recovered, sadly too late, in just this manner. Your boat would run out of energy 10 minutes into the rescue and the crew member would be lost.  That is simply unacceptable. It might be acceptable to you, but I would guarantee you would be at front row of the shrill voices accusing the VOR of incompetence if a crew member was lost .

I have no idea what nature of power and mechanical engineering you are involved with, but safety critical systems seems a long way from your experience.

I have never met Ken Read. ....  It would be interesting though, to know what his views are, given his high profile in sailing.

You do know who says, "these are our new best friends" in this video is don't you? This is the point. He probably has a very clear perspective.

Our new best friends

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Well Francis, we can agree on energy requirements for racing a boat but obviously not about what risks are acceptable. If you want to avoid all risk of drowning then people with your attitude can always opt not to go to sea. The Mini-transat and the VG must fill you with horror!

Oh and I just watched your video. Do you really suggest that diesel was essential for propelling the boat, and that they couldn't have made a decent jury rig with that boom?

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Different race. Same mix of super-informed and super-uninformed opinion, ceaselessly whirling. Cool.

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4 hours ago, resist said:

Fastnet entry list has 8 entries in the VO65 class. Only 7 boats named.

The entry fee for a boat is an inexpensive way for VOR to ensure that there is a place for the eighth boat!

Meanwhile, Francis Vaughan and Staysail, you both make good points so why don't you pool your knowledge to come up with a solution to the problems that you both see and then approach ISAF or whoever with a recommendation for changes that would both be environmentally and safety wise superior to the current rules/systems. That would require a lot of commitment I know, but if you are both as passionate about it as you appear to be, then wouldn't it be worth the effort, or are you just talk and no action?

I don't recall which single-handed RWT it was now but at least 15 years ago, there was a fascinating video (Jack may have it) shot by one of the sailors with a pushpit mounted camera recording him building a jury rig in heavy swells, that got him to safety

Meanwhile, please can we get back to the forthcoming VOR.

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8 hours ago, staysail said:

Well Francis, we can agree on energy requirements for racing a boat but obviously not about what risks are acceptable. If you want to avoid all risk of drowning then people with your attitude can always opt not to go to sea. The Mini-transat and the VG must fill you with horror!

Oh and I just watched your video. Do you really suggest that diesel was essential for propelling the boat, and that they couldn't have made a decent jury rig with that boom?

My quote is simply to explain to Francis and Staysail why I mentioned the video of the single-handed sailor jury rigging his boat in my immediate past post. Can't recall now whether it was a boom or the stub of a mast, but it worked. And also to reinforce my opinion that you two should get together on this, but NOT ON THIS FORUM!

Okay, I think it was probably John Hughes (a Canadian no less) 30 years ago in the BOC, but it was two spinnaker poles in an A-frame. I have the video somewhere but its on tape and nothing to play it with anymore. VOR65 don't have spinnaker poles, but they have multiple outrigger struts and other bits. I still do not know how to post a reference on this forum, but check out John Hughes BOC for a report in the Los Angeles Times in 1987!

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6 hours ago, jbc said:

Different race. Same mix of super-informed and super-uninformed opinion, ceaselessly whirling. Cool.

...And all in one thread, double cool! :lol:

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On 12/07/2017 at 5:23 AM, Francis Vaughan said:

Gosh its gone quiet here. Not exactly long to go.

It occurs to me that Mr Witt is probably exactly correct when he talks about a "social experiment." After all, it isn't every day that you place seven knuckle dragging misogynist Neanderthals* in a boat with a couple of talented professional women sailors. Sort of sad that they are essentially the team from Oz.  I wonder what it will be like being the media crew on their boat.

We really need a story about the 8'th boat, if there is to be one, pretty soon.  If Peter Burling wants a go, this is possibly his best chance for a while, as he may be rather occupied to consider it in two years time. Then again, it isn't as if he is exactly short on remaining career time.

*OK, that is probably unfair to the other six members of the team, at least until proven otherwise.

Don't think it's really fair to drag every other crew member involved in the race into that category. 

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Ignoring Mr Witt's F-wittery on the gender front, from the outside, I think it will be an interesting comparison during the race between a bunch of pro- but really journeymen  who have sailed together as a close-knit bunch versus the rest of the fleet who have a real range of experience with their crewmates - from lots to none.

The other crews are turning out to be an interesting mix of old salts who've been around a few times, amazing solo sailors  through to very skilled sailors with little or no offshore experience.

 

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10 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

My quote is simply to explain to Francis and Staysail why I mentioned the video of the single-handed sailor jury rigging his boat in my immediate past post. Can't recall now whether it was a boom or the stub of a mast, but it worked. And also to reinforce my opinion that you two should get together on this, but NOT ON THIS FORUM!

Okay, I think it was probably John Hughes (a Canadian no less) 30 years ago in the BOC, but it was two spinnaker poles in an A-frame. I have the video somewhere but its on tape and nothing to play it with anymore. VOR65 don't have spinnaker poles, but they have multiple outrigger struts and other bits. I still do not know how to post a reference on this forum, but check out John Hughes BOC for a report in the Los Angeles Times in 1987!

You are doing exactly the same thing we are RS, and there is a real dearth of news about this years race and its boats and crews. You can always ignore my posts.

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Nobody knows. The only hint I've seen so far may or may not be #thefutureishere from when the boat went into branding back in may.

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11 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

The Fastnet starts August 3rd, correct? We should have an Announcement in the next 2 weeks then, no?

Last time I looked, the Fastnet starts on August 6, but as I have said before, it's not typical for boats to turn up the night before.

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12 hours ago, staysail said:

 You can always ignore my posts.

I cant imagine why I would want to do that, because I am interested in what you and some other thoughtful people have to say. I may not always agree, but that's the point of discussion.

However, for all of those out there interested in survival at sea and particularly those extolling recent single-handed experiences, I give you John Hughes:

Around-the-World Single-Handed Race : Canadian Sails Dismasted Sloop Around the Horn to the Falklands

March 30, 1987|DAN BYRNE | Special to The Times and Dan Byrne, a former news editor for the Los Angeles Times, was among the finishers in the first solo race around the world in 1983

NEWPORT, R.I. — Canadian John Hughes, 26, steered his crippled sailboat into port in the Falkland Islands after sailing for 45 days and 4,400 nautical miles without a mast.

Hughes' 41-foot sloop, Joseph Young, was dismasted Feb. 6, about 1,500 miles east of New Zealand on the third leg of the BOC Challenge single-handed sailing race around the world.

Hughes, 26, of Halifax, Nova Scotia, had exceptional luck on his 400-mile run from Cape Horn to the Falklands. The 35-knot tailwind was perfect for his jury-rigged boat, which had only a small jib sail flying.

With the wind dying shortly before noon Monday, Hughes sailed into East Cove, where a British naval base is located. He took a tow only after he was well within two miles of his goal to avoid breaking a race rule.

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He was escorted in by a British patrol vessel. At the dock, he was greeted by naval personnel, headed by Rear Adm. Chris Leyland, the commander of naval forces in the Falklands.

Hughes told of his dismasting by telephone to race headquarters here:

"I was asleep in the quarter berth when the mast broke off at the deck. The bottom of the mast had jumped a foot to port and crashed through the deck. It was rocking around from side to side."

Hughes cut away the mast before it could go through the hull. As it went overboard, though, it ripped away the safety lines on the starboard side of the boat as well as the bow pulpit.

With the mast and the boom gone, as well as the mainsail and a jib, Hughes said he "erected a spinnaker pole in the cockpit to set a steadying sail to ease the boat's rolling, and to replace my radio antenna, which had gone overboard with the mast. I was able to contact Hal Roth and Mark Schrader (fellow racers) and pass the word along."

He then built a jury rig with two spinnaker poles lashed together in an A-frame. The poles' bottoms rested in coffee cans filled with rags, so they would not damage the deck further.

With a wire to the bow and the stern of the boat from the top of the rig, Hughes still was able to hoist only his smallest jib.

Initially, Hughes headed for Chile, 3,500 miles away and 1,200 miles north of Cape Horn. But he concluded that he could not reach Chile.

"After I headed north, a big high pressure came over me and I ran out of wind," he said. "Then I started running low on food and water, so I had to change my strategy.

"I had very little sail and my jury rig was very strong, so I changed course and headed for Cape Horn and the Falklands. There is more wind toward the Horn."

As he drove farther south, Hughes maintained contact with land through a network of amateur radio operators in New Zealand, Chile and the United States, coordinated by Fred Chew of Fall River, Mass

Bob Rice of Weather Services, Inc., in New Bedford, Mass,, volunteered his time to provide Hughes with up-to-the minute weather forecasts covering the Cape Horn area.

Hughes almost ran out of water, but 400 miles before the Horn he managed to catch some hail and melt it.

"I ran out of water one day before reaching port," he said. "I've been drinking a lot since I got here--lots of water, and getting lots of sleep."

Hughes said the Cape Horn passage was frightening.

"For a while, I didn't think I would make it. The winds were blowing more than 50 knots, and the shallow water made each wave break.

"Twice, I was knocked down--giving me a good scare. Everything was a mess inside--broken glass bottles, chutney everywhere and lots of salt water in the boat. The waves were 40-footers, not so big, but every wave was breaking. They were very steep. I was really relieved to get into deeper water."

Back home, the drama of Hughes' mastless odyssey caught the attention of fellow Canadians, inspiring them to contribute money to his cause.

A new mast was bought with donations. It was supposed to have arrived by March 22, but engine problems forced a Canadian Air Force transport to miss a connection with the RAF plane that was to fly the spar to the Falklands.

The rig's late arrival will almost certainly prevent Hughes from making it to Rio de Janeiro by April 11, in time to start the last leg of the race home to Newport, R.I.

Hughes intends to provision his boat for the entire journey to Newport, so that he only has to cross the finish line in Rio before resuming the race.

The racers will begin to arrive home in early May.

The 27,500-nautical mile race started August 30, 1986, with 25 competitors. Sixteen, including Hughes, remain. One boat has sunk; two besides Hughes' have been dismasted.

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My previous post is because I found the intense criticism of whether VOR represents "sailing at the extreme", rather fatuous, because I believe that everyone who sails has had an experience that to them qualifies as "sailing at the extreme". None of us may be Shackleton or Hughes, but anyone on this forum who says that they haven't had such an experience is either lying or not a sailor. 

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How to watch the in-port racing in Alicante on the water?

Hi

I am looking to organise a trip to Alicante for the start of the VOR as a present for a very good friend of mine who is turning 75. We went to the Vendee Globe start together in 2012 for his 70th, so this seems to fit! I'd like to go out and see the in-port race,  as that is probably the best "bang-for-buck", on the water. Unfortunately, the official VOR on the water experience with a modicum of comfort (he is 75 after all), is the VIP  Spectator Boat for €595, which, compared to the €200 we spent in the VG, is very steep, and shelling out €1200 plus flights and accommodation is a bit much, even for a 75th birthday present. 

Does anyone know of any other outfits running these kind of tours? Or even a company or private individual with a suitable motorboat that we could charter (with skipper)? For the right price, our wives & my kid could come along too, which would really be the icing on the cake! I've had a good dig around without much luck so far. 

Any hints and tips would be greatly appreciated!

Regards

Tom

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13 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

My previous post is because I found the intense criticism of whether VOR represents "sailing at the extreme", rather fatuous, because I believe that everyone who sails has had an experience that to them qualifies as "sailing at the extreme". None of us may be Shackleton or Hughes, but anyone on this forum who says that they haven't had such an experience is either lying or not a sailor. 

+1000

Well said!

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13 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

My previous post is because I found the intense criticism of whether VOR represents "sailing at the extreme", rather fatuous, because I believe that everyone who sails has had an experience that to them qualifies as "sailing at the extreme". None of us may be Shackleton or Hughes, but anyone on this forum who says that they haven't had such an experience is either lying or not a sailor. 

What you are describing, namely a seriously scary trip or two, which almost all sailors may well have experienced, is according to your own example, an average experience for sailors, or at most an experience at one end of the normal distribution of experiences of most sailors, ranging from tame, idyllic, to pretty scary.
That does not, almost by definition, compare with what happens in "Extreme sailboat racing".
If an event is going to claim that it is on a pinnacle of professional ocean racing sport and bills itself with a slogan of "Life at the Extreme", then that is what some of us think it should be. Different people have different views about what is extreme but few will dispute that the VO70's were very powerful and capable of sailing very fast, indeed capable of being sailed close to or beyond their breaking point, and that did lead to extreme sailing experiences for their crews.
Relatively speaking, sailing in a de-powered and heavily constructed 65 foot boat, with righting moment reduced intentionally by design so it will tip over before the crew can break it, is not by comparison, extreme.
That is why I waould say that the VOR used to be Life at the Extreme, but does not any longer justify its slogan.
What is "extreme sailing" by today's standards? I guess Thomas Coville's recent exploits would qualify. Certainly makes it for me!

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with ETNZ out of contention for the 8th boat, the only other possible team ready to go and with sponsors willing to activate around the world, would be BAR... but my gut feeling looking at timing (Fastnet is in 2 weeks (!)) is that the 8th boat is going to stay on shore... 

On another topic, I was wondering if the best sailors do actually end up doing the VOR. Looking at the profile of the skippers, you could argue both ways. 

 

Xabi Fernandez: 1 gold, 1 silver at Olympics, lots of World Championships (49er), several VOR, AC

Charles Caudrelier: Winner VOR (groupama), winner Figaro, Transat

Bouwe Bekking: 8 VOR (never won), lots of maxi championships

Charlie Enright: ??  (1 VOR), 1 Moonlight (regatta movie from Disney)

Witt: ?? 

Dee Caffari: First woman circumnavigating the globe in both directions non-stop, 1 VG

Simeon Tienpont: 2 VOR, 1 AC (winner as grinder)

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1 hour ago, JeronimoII said:

with ETNZ out of contention for the 8th boat, the only other possible team ready to go and with sponsors willing to activate around the world, would be BAR... but my gut feeling looking at timing (Fastnet is in 2 weeks (!)) is that the 8th boat is going to stay on shore... 

On another topic, I was wondering if the best sailors do actually end up doing the VOR. Looking at the profile of the skippers, you could argue both ways. 

 

Xabi Fernandez: 1 gold, 1 silver at Olympics, lots of World Championships (49er), several VOR, AC

Charles Caudrelier: Winner VOR (groupama), winner Figaro, Transat

Bouwe Bekking: 8 VOR (never won), lots of maxi championships

Charlie Enright: ??  (1 VOR), 1 Moonlight (regatta movie from Disney)

Witt: ?? 

Dee Caffari: First woman circumnavigating the globe in both directions non-stop, 1 VG

Simeon Tienpont: 2 VOR, 1 AC (winner as grinder)

I had qualified for something called the American Eventing Championships in horse riding.  Qualifications were not easy and it meant to be a competition of the best in the sport at your level.  SOmeone commented to me when I said it was the "best" that that was not true.  There were really good teams that maybe qualified, but choose not to go.

My response back was, then how would they know they are the best?

Someone can say I've done it all, but if you are not willing to but it on the line, then it is still just talk.  Right now, each one of those skippers stepped up to the plate and are willing to answer the question, are you one of the best?  Just the fact that they decided to accept that challenge means they are one step ahead of any other.

That's how I see it.  People could argue that Glenn Ashby is the best skipper, but since he didn't (or doesn't) want to take on the challenge, it is fair game to question that statement.  Best is relative...winner is not.

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I think VOR has a bit of the problem, that there are not enough talented young skippers with a ton of offshore experience outside of France and the french seems to prefer short handed sailing.

Also I suppose that there are probably some older guys, who would qualify, but prefer to sail minimaxis, tp52s and occasionally some 600nm races. Anyways the current VOR  skippers with crews included, are in my opinion still top notch. 

One other thing is that with the star class gone from the Olympics, for many sailors, there isn't the same logical step to keel boat sailing.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, jonas a said:

I think VOR has a bit of the problem, that there are not enough talented young skippers with a ton of offshore experience outside of France and the french seems to prefer short handed sailing.

Also I suppose that there are probably some older guys, who would qualify, but prefer to sail minimaxis, tp52s and occasionally some 600nm races. Anyways the current VOR  skippers with crews included, are in my opinion still top notch. 

One other thing is that with the star class gone from the Olympics, for many sailors, there isn't the same logical step to keel boat sailing.

 

 

 

They obviously did some analytical work and screwed up. Paid for and built a new eighth boat - only to find no interested sponsors at the right price. 

Problem for young skippers is networking and finding money. With the small size of the crew now there's really no room for much talent development opportunities for navigators and skippers, only two job that allow old guys. 

Hopefully they learn from this cycle, get rid of the silly inport cat class. If I were VOR CEO I'll put together a team on boat 8 called Team Future - with young folks with 6.5 exp out of my own pocket. Market the shit out of it. 

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7 minutes ago, Miffy said:

 

They obviously did some analytical work and screwed up. Paid for and built a new eighth boat - only to find no interested sponsors at the right price. 

Problem for young skippers is networking and finding money. With the small size of the crew now there's really no room for much talent development opportunities for navigators and skippers, only two job that allow old guys. 

Hopefully they learn from this cycle, get rid of the silly inport cat class. If I were VOR CEO I'll put together a team on boat 8 called Team Future - with young folks with 6.5 exp out of my own pocket. Market the shit out of it. 

I like that approach.

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Just include someone who can read charts into this last minute team................. :ph34r:

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23 minutes ago, Chasm said:

Just include someone who can read charts into this last minute team................. :ph34r:

All crew have to have the British RYA Yachtmaster Coastal qualification for this edition and the skipper and navigator have to have Yachtmaster, Ocean or Offshore (can't rmember which), so someone on board should know about charts. It should be fun for those who don't already have these qualifications to pass the exams in the few remaining weeks, especially for the non english speaking ones and those who have only sailed dinghys and olympics. Could limit last minute crew selection options.

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1 hour ago, Chasm said:

Just include someone who can read charts into this last minute team................. :ph34r:

 

TBF both the navigator and skipper missed it because they were not familiar with the software/chart zoom. While they were clearly in error and responsible, software surprisingly didn't have grounding alarms, the race organization didn't help with last minute route changes. 

The navigators IMO are overworked with trying to squeeze out that last bit of speed. I think a bunch of teams accidently entered TSS, exclusion zones. Just signs they're overly strained and focused on weather and less on charts. 

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Miff apart from your comment about Wouter not being familiar with zoom function of electronic charting, which is nonsense (he didn't zoom because he thought they were in deep water), your on the money about nav workload. These guys earn every dollar.

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25 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Miff apart from your comment about Wouter not being familiar with zoom function of electronic charting, which is nonsense (he didn't zoom because he thought they were in deep water), your on the money about nav workload. These guys earn every dollar.

I should have been more clear. I don't mean they didn't know how to zoom, but there's a fundamental misunderstanding re whether grounding depths will be apparent at the zoom level they were at. 

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It will be interesting to see what turns up at the startline for the Fastnet. I would not be surprised to see a few VOR management on board if they really can't get the 8'th team together. Although that would be something of an admission of failure. I like Miffy's approach. OTOH, how about a crusty old curmudgeon team? I'm free.  :ph34r:

If they did decide that the 8'th team really wasn't going to happen they could run a boat with openings for younger sailors to take only a few legs, and build a lot of people with significant experience. A couple of VOR legs is going to be worth many years of crewing in just about any other format. In particular, the VOR could start selecting these crew from countries where they want to push up interest, seeding them with talent and experience. But, unless they have already been working on this, it is likely getting too late. Less then 100 days to go. Very very tight.

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5 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

It will be interesting to see what turns up at the startline for the Fastnet. I would not be surprised to see a few VOR management on board if they really can't get the 8'th team together. Although that would be something of an admission of failure. I like Miffy's approach. OTOH, how about a crusty old curmudgeon team? I'm free.  :ph34r:

If they did decide that the 8'th team really wasn't going to happen they could run a boat with openings for younger sailors to take only a few legs, and build a lot of people with significant experience. A couple of VOR legs is going to be worth many years of crewing in just about any other format. In particular, the VOR could start selecting these crew from countries where they want to push up interest, seeding them with talent and experience. But, unless they have already been working on this, it is likely getting too late. Less then 100 days to go. Very very tight.

Yes , that would be cool. Make a grand master team 70+   

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15 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

OTOH, how about a crusty old curmudgeon team? I'm free.  :ph34r:

I would totally watch a team comprised of the most vocal members of this forum. I wouldn't necessarily want to be on the boat, but the onboard video would be fun. The arguments would spill from one watch into the next...

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Despite my 'who cares which team got which boat' comment a couple of weeks ago, I am beginning to wonder again about the 'mystery' delivery from Lisbon to Alicante by Liz Wardley. Who was that delivery for, or did VOR already know there would not be an eighth sponsor, so simply parked it in Alicante?  The latter doesn't seem logical, so was that Dee's boat? So where is the missing eighth boat, Lisbon, Alicante, or en route to the Solent for the Fastnet start??? Is VOR just keeping the biggest news to the last minute for maximum effect, marching bands, ticker tape etc. etc.? I wouldn't put anything past VOR right now. So what if the Magenta Project was supplemented by some 'experienced' people still missing from the currently announced action? I'd like to think that Witt's comments put somebody's back up, and he/she/they decided to do something about it!!

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The mystery delivery, as you call it, was Liz delivering the boat to Alicante for some sponsor/partner sailing during the partner forum. Also tied in with Dee's announcement, and with the boat that is Turning the Tide (ex Vestas).

VOR and Magenta combined resources to give delivery crew, and give experience where it is difficult to get. Some of the girls from the trip there or back have since down trials with teams.

They weren't hiding anything, just not necessarily shouting about anything. 

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48 minutes ago, Potter said:

The mystery delivery, as you call it, was Liz delivering the boat to Alicante for some sponsor/partner sailing during the partner forum. Also tied in with Dee's announcement, and with the boat that is Turning the Tide (ex Vestas).

VOR and Magenta combined resources to give delivery crew, and give experience where it is difficult to get. Some of the girls from the trip there or back have since down trials with teams.

They weren't hiding anything, just not necessarily shouting about anything. 

Okay, but you didn't win the shell game yet. It was the old Vestas that made the 'delivery trip', as I previously supposed, but now you say "some of the girls from the trip there or back". So is the seventh boat the rebuilt Vestas now back in Lisbon and, if so, how branded?? If it's Dee's boat then it's "Clean Water". Or are you just a teaser?? So which is the 'unclaimed' eighth boat and where is it?

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RS, Potter is not a teaser and if you actually read what others have written above rather than what you think or hope in your conspiratorial world you just would not write some of your silly comments.

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1 hour ago, DtM said:

RS, Potter is not a teaser and if you actually read what others have written above rather than what you think or hope in your conspiratorial world you just would not write some of your silly comments.

As far as I am concerned anyone who doesn't answer a straight question with a simple answer is a teaser. Straight question, where is the missing eighth boat, in Lisbon, Alicante or en route to the Solent? Presumably Lisbon, unless VOR has managed to put together a deal, but all I got in response from Potter was pontificalia concerning the old Vestas. I tend to expect more from the people on this forum who claim to be knowledgeable, but  I am often disappointed.

As to whether my comments are silly or not, I think that you should look up 'pontificalia'.

Hopefully, within the next three weeks, we will all know one way or the other about an eighth boat, and then we can settle down to enjoying the Fastnet, supporting our favorite and go on from there.

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Maybe I'm missing something. Boat 8, the new boat isn't missing. It's the AkzoNobel boat. 

If you're looking for intel on the 8th team, no one in the know can comment. 

In the meantime, just pay attention to Fastnet entry list. I check it a couple times a week to see updates. Since it is a qualifier folks won't be able to hide. 

Notice the class number says 8, even though there are only 7current . 

IMG_5206.PNG

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It's in Lisbon. Was at boatyard 2 weeks ago all boats other than Mapfre, DF and Vestas were there. Two boats on the hard in still in virgin white without any sign writing at the time, of which one is now Brunel yellow.  

 

boatyard1.jpg

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3 hours ago, Miffy said:

If you're looking for intel on the 8th team, no one in the know can comment. 

Hi Miffy, that's exactly the intel that I and numerous other people are looking for. My apologies for confusing the issue by referring to the eighth boat.

2 hours ago, euro said:

It's in Lisbon. Was at boatyard 2 weeks ago all boats other than Mapfre, DF and Vestas were there. Two boats on the hard in still in virgin white without any sign writing at the time, of which one is now Brunel yellow.  

Thanks euro, at least someone on this forum is on the ball, even if one of the boats may still be white. Three weeks to go, hopefully we shall soon see whether it stays white, or gets branding!

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14 hours ago, Potter said:

[CUT] Also tied in with Dee's announcement, and with the boat that is Turning the Tide (ex Vestas).

[CUT}

So... if TTT is ex Vestas, what is missing now is which is Scallywag boat... #2 or #5?

    #1 Dongfeng            
    #2 Scallywag or team mistery? (ex SCA)
    #3 Brunel           
    #4 Vestas 11th hour (ex Alvimedica)
    #5 Scallywag or team mistery?(ex ADOR)
    #6 Turn the tide (ex Vestas)
    #7 Mapfre            
    #8 Team AkzoNobel

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3 hours ago, ITA602 said:

So... if TTT is ex Vestas, what is missing now is which is Scallywag boat... #2 or #5?

    #1 Dongfeng            
    #2 Scallywag or team mistery? (ex SCA)
    #3 Brunel           
    #4 Vestas 11th hour (ex Alvimedica)
    #5 Scallywag or team mistery?(ex ADOR)
    #6 Turn the tide (ex Vestas)
    #7 Mapfre            
    #8 Team AkzoNobel

Pretty sure Scallywag got ADOR

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DONGFENG VO65NO1 - MMSI 319060300 is in Lorient

SCA - MMSI 235101548 is unused, last seen October 2015 in Alicante

BRUNEL - MMSI 244780246 is in Lisbon

ex Alvimedia is in Gosport, S/V VESTAS 11TH HOUR - MMSI 367616310

ex ADOR is in Lisbon, AZZAM UAE2 - MMSI 470437000

VESTASWIND - MMSI 319071200 is unused, last seen November 2014 in Cape Town
VESTAS WIND - MMSI 319081500 is in Lisbon

TC6 - MAPFRE - MMSI 224530860 is in Sanxenxo

TEAM AKZONOBEL - MMSI 319119500 is in Cascias

 

 

Looks to me like ex-SCA is the mystery team. No other boats with active AIS sitting in the Lisbon same harbor corner either - at least not when I look.

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So, summing up and assuming everyone above knows what they're talking about, it sounds like:

Hull # 2014/15      2017/18

1      Dongfeng     Dongfeng

2      SCA          ???

3      Brunel       Brunel

4      Alvimedica   Vestas/11th Hour

5      ADOR         Scallywag

6      Vestas       Turn the Tide

7      Mapfre       Mapfre

8      (N/A)        AkzoNobel

Is that right? I know it's probably silly to read too much into ex-SCA being the boat that's still unaccounted for. And maybe it's too late in the game for anything to be realistically hoped for. But the remarks about "no one in the know can comment" and the 8 slots for the class at the Fastnet make me hope some big, fun surprise is coming. I hope there are 8 boats, if only to help validate the idea of the one-design approach (which I really like, notwithstanding all the arguments against it some people make around here) and help build momentum for the event going forward.

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1 hour ago, Chasm said:

DONGFENG VO65NO1 - MMSI 319060300 is in Lorient

SCA - MMSI 235101548 is unused, last seen October 2015 in Alicante

BRUNEL - MMSI 244780246 is in Lisbon

ex Alvimedia is in Gosport, S/V VESTAS 11TH HOUR - MMSI 367616310

ex ADOR is in Lisbon, AZZAM UAE2 - MMSI 470437000

VESTASWIND - MMSI 319071200 is unused, last seen November 2014 in Cape Town
VESTAS WIND - MMSI 319081500 is in Lisbon

TC6 - MAPFRE - MMSI 224530860 is in Sanxenxo

TEAM AKZONOBEL - MMSI 319119500 is in Cascias

 

 

Looks to me like ex-SCA is the mystery team. No other boats with active AIS sitting in the Lisbon same harbor corner either - at least not when I look.

I currently have Vestas 11th hour (Formaly Alvemedica) in Portsmouth

Position Received:1 hour, 16 minutes ago (2017-07-19 16:25 (UTC))
 

DongFeng near Lorient

Position Received:1 hour, 49 minutes ago (2017-07-19 15:55 (UTC))

Brunel is near Lisbon

Position Received:4 minutes ago (2017-07-19 17:41 (UTC))

Mapfre

Somewhere in Spain

Position Received:3 hours, 57 minutes ago (2017-07-19 13:49 (UTC))

ADU
Not found in my fleet from marinetraffic.

Team AKzoNobel  near Lisbon

Position Received:1 hour, 48 minutes ago (2017-07-19 16:00 (UTC))

Vesta Wind  Near Lisbon

Position Received:1 hour, 33 minutes ago (2017-07-19 16:17 (UTC))

I cannot find SCA, which might mean it's on the dry and getting a new AIS id and branding

 

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At the moment it seems T*3 (Turn the Tide) is the original Vestas but the AIS name has not been changed.  So the missing boat, if AZZAM is Scallywag is the boat formally name SCA.  One of those white hulls became BRUNEL (rebranded? ) so this will get interesting, because what or who is that other white hull?

 

Capture.JPG

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The last while hull should be exSCA since swapping MSSI between hulls is unlikely.

We'll find out sooner or later if they rename SCA - MMSI 235101548 or use a new number. Anyone in Lisbon to give us another update on the white whale?

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2 hours ago, Chasm said:

Anyone in Lisbon to give us another update on the white whale?

I hope that this is not perceived as a 'silly' observation, but euro's photo shows four boats, all with masts and keels installed and on frames, and two boats all white, one now Brunel yellow. Based on personal experience, its a damn expensive and time consuming job to 'brand' i.e. paint the whole of the frigging boat, topsides, hull sides and bottom in that situation , and particularly to the quality obtained by shop painting without mast or keel. Presumably, Brunel will make it, but what about the boat for the eighth team (as corrected by Miffy)?

Meanwhile thanks to Bucc5062, jbc, Chasm, ITA602 and EFoiled for the info on boat positions.

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There is quite a bit of OD white on the bottom of at least half boats.
Looking at pictures again... On the 15th the 4 boats were craned from stands into the water, all with white bottoms. Turn the Tide, Akzo, ?????, Brunel.

Mystery boat is dark blue(?) with white(!) addidas/tiger stripes.
Vestas would fit but is supposed to have orange stripes. Scallywag has white stripes but a black bottom.

Or Liz is adding older pictures into the mix. ;)

 

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It seems odd that ex-SCA is the unused boat. It went into the refit process fairly early on (second or third from memory.) The manner in which boats got allocated to new teams just seems random if this is the case. Why would you be keeping one of the earlier refitted boats back? Maybe teams were given a choice, and somehow ex-SCA was never chosen. But given the time the end-to end refit took of all the boats, I would have expected ex-SCA to have been taken up, since it would have been available early. So, maybe it has been allocated from the start, and we are being kept in the dark deliberately.  I rather doubt that, more likely it was just never chosen.

Much of the boat branding can be done with applied printed film, which doesn't take long. Only the main colour is an issue.

 

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All this talk of racing around the world without using fossil fuels surely disregards the important fact the boats are built using fossil fuels. Lots of oil based resins etc, heating for the autoclave etc is not from the fucking sun. The bit of diesel burned is a drop in the bucket of these boats fossil fuel footprint. Get a fucking grip. 

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1 hour ago, Alcatraz5768 said:

All this talk of racing around the world without using fossil fuels surely disregards the important fact the boats are built using fossil fuels. Lots of oil based resins etc, heating for the autoclave etc is not from the fucking sun. The bit of diesel burned is a drop in the bucket of these boats fossil fuel footprint. Get a fucking grip. 

Next step is obviously 100% recyclable hulls :) 

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2 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

It seems odd that ex-SCA is the unused boat. It went into the refit process fairly early on (second or third from memory.) The manner in which boats got allocated to new teams just seems random if this is the case. Why would you be keeping one of the earlier refitted boats back? Maybe teams were given a choice, and somehow ex-SCA was never chosen. But given the time the end-to end refit took of all the boats, I would have expected ex-SCA to have been taken up, since it would have been available early. So, maybe it has been allocated from the start, and we are being kept in the dark deliberately.  I rather doubt that, more likely it was just never chosen.

Much of the boat branding can be done with applied printed film, which doesn't take long. Only the main colour is an issue.

 

Do we know the boat weight variances? SCA was hull #1. And no matter what smart people try and put effort in, the way those one design builds were started and completed, there's probably lessons learned that made subsequent hulls better built. I wouldn't be surprised if SCA also had the most miles with all the testing and additional training that the team went through?

Of the boats, boat 8 and Vestas would be in the best shape. 

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Interesting point. After the refit all the hulls were brought to identical weights, so that shouldn't be an issue.  But SCA very likely has the most miles. Not by a lot, but it could be a few thousand. Perhaps simply avoiding hull number one as a matter of principle is enough of a reason.

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I expect, despite all the hype about the toughness and reliability of these boats, all will have sustained their fair share of damage and repairs, and within certain circles some boats will rightly or wrongly, be seen as "better", or "worse". The forward part of the bottom of the SCA hull has been damaged and repaired. Would such a history affect choice? Used boats are much the same as used cars. Few are blemish-free and none are identical.

 

SCA-June2014.jpg

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Hmm, well that is very interesting - already paid a deposit eh?

Here's hoping. If they did join it would be little short of brilliant.

"But there has never been a cheaper time to enter the Volvo Ocean Race." is a rather interesting, if revealing, comment.

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2 hours ago, ITA602 said:

KIWI Entry? Then It will be hard to decide if supporting MAPFRE or the Kiwis...

Ok, let's weat two hats! :-)

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11893218&lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Ad_flagship3_feed%3Bdw%2Bh1FtJSDaNT9jQJK51MQ%3D%3D

THis makes a lot of sense given what Dalton said at the AC post race presser.  He specifically mentioned the VOR as one of the events that he'd like to blend into the AC so the sport is not as "splintered" or fractured (forgot which one).  The AC held in NZ, an NZ stop over, it wouldn't be hard to imagine an NZ sponsored boat of some kind.   How exciting.

If this happens, it might also be a clue as to what the next AC boats may be (foiling assist monohulls).  Then you have the next VOR in FA IMOCA like boats, two years later the AC in FA monos with NZ getting a lot of press and attention. Bets that we get an announcement in 7 days in securing a VOR boat and soon after, NZ AC will announce their protocol for the next Event.

Found this in the next article...now it gets really interesting.....

 

Quote

Burling, who has fielded a multitude of offers since helming Emirates Team New Zealand to glory in the America's Cup last month, is also said to be considering doing the iconic round the world race, but is yet to commit to a team.

 

Edited by bucc5062
added quote

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These are where the boats are today

11th hour in England
DongFeng in France
MAPFE in Spain
Nobel in Portugal
Brunel in Portugal
Scalliwag (aka AZZAM) in Portugal
SCA (aka ????) in Spain (Lorient)

Marine traffic shows all boats but former SCA are actively sailing so practice seems to be going on.  2 weeks and two days so if we don't see movement from fSCA then hard to seem that boat at the start.  WHat would they need to get it over there....a week?

boatsloc.JPG

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58 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

SCA (aka ????) in Spain (Lorient)

Did you mean SCA in Alicante as you circled on map? Lorient is in France.

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1 hour ago, Retired Sailor said:

Did you mean SCA in Alicante as you circled on map? Lorient is in France.

Yes...brain fart

 

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1 hour ago, Retired Sailor said:

Did you mean SCA in Alicante as you circled on map? Lorient is in France.

How in hell is Craig Monk going to pull this off. There is not even time to make new sails, or change boat colours to sponser livery.  This is starting to look like a pipe dream.  It says hes payed a deposit.....so what the depsit could be ten bucks for all we know.  All that seems to be happening is Craig is trying to ride the coat tails of recent AC success.  Does any one have any idea the minimum funding cost even if the crew were volunters not taking pay.  

Is there any chance the govt might dip into their coffers, even if its half a milion. The govt woukd earn the money back via extra economic activity when the VOR circus hits town. 

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1 minute ago, mako23 said:

How in hell is Craig Monk going to pull this off. There is not even time to make new sails, or change boat colours to sponser livery.  This is starting to look like a pipe dream.  It says hes payed a deposit.....so what the depsit could be ten bucks for all we know.  All that seems to be happening is Craig is trying to ride the coat tails of recent AC success.  Does any one have any idea the minimum funding cost even if the crew were volunters not taking pay. 

One idea is that he sails a plain boat.  AT the moment this is not officially the VOR so sponsorship imaging may not be as important now.  Certainly they'd have time after.  THe other option is VOR give a pass to the Fastnet race for them if they sail something else or do a lap around the Atlantic.  I would think that putting up money means they are aware of the issues, but they have a plan.  And as RR pointed out It was Aleciante

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11 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

One idea is that he sails a plain boat.  AT the moment this is not officially the VOR so sponsorship imaging may not be as important now.  Certainly they'd have time after.  THe other option is VOR give a pass to the Fastnet race for them if they sail something else or do a lap around the Atlantic.  I would think that putting up money means they are aware of the issues, but they have a plan.  And as RR pointed out It was Aleciante

Do you have any idea of minimum budget required to do this ......even if no pay to staff and old sails are recycled to some extent. You could use the old SCA sails when out of port ...no one will see them

My underlying thinking is that ETNZ are going back to monohulls and they might provide free staff who need to up monohulls skills. I dont think ETNZ have touched a monohull for a long time, their whole world has been cats.....the whole premis on this thought that LR deal with ETNZ was the right to select type of boat. LR sure threw their  toys out of the pram when boat design changed half way through last AC cycle

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6 minutes ago, mako23 said:

Do you have any idea of minimum budget required to do this ......even if no pay to staff and old sails are recycled to some extent. You could use the old SCA sails when out of port ...no one will see them

Obviously no, but then we don't know what backers may have green lit a deposit, which I doubt is small.  VOR lists 8 boats for this race and certainly it is easier to scratch then enter late, NZs announcement make it seem like they want to try and get that boat on the line.

If I was NZ and I wanted to have the boat, I would not care as much about branding for a trail run as I would about getting a team on board in time for the race.  How much times does it take to drop a boat, and sail it to England.  Once we see VOR boats heading over, that's it.  Either fSCA is moving or not.  It amazes me that no one in SA is near enough to the boatyard to spy/video a little of whats going on.  I could see no official announcement from VOR until everything is agreed upon, but you can't hide prepped a boat for sail.

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19 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Obviously no, but then we don't know what backers may have green lit a deposit, which I doubt is small.  VOR lists 8 boats for this race and certainly it is easier to scratch then enter late, NZs announcement make it seem like they want to try and get that boat on the line.

If I was NZ and I wanted to have the boat, I would not care as much about branding for a trail run as I would about getting a team on board in time for the race.  How much times does it take to drop a boat, and sail it to England.  Once we see VOR boats heading over, that's it.  Either fSCA is moving or not.  It amazes me that no one in SA is near enough to the boatyard to spy/video a little of whats going on.  I could see no official announcement from VOR until everything is agreed upon, but you can't hide prepped a boat for sail.

What ever happens I cant see ETNZ  attaching their Brand to this venture. They would only do this if they felt they had a good chance to win. In a unofficial manner they could help a lot. 

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46 minutes ago, mako23 said:

How in hell is Craig Monk going to pull this off. There is not even time to make new sails, or change boat colours to sponser livery.  This is starting to look like a pipe dream.  It says hes payed a deposit.....so what the depsit could be ten bucks for all we know.  All that seems to be happening is Craig is trying to ride the coat tails of recent AC success.  Does any one have any idea the minimum funding cost even if the crew were volunters not taking pay.  

Is there any chance the govt might dip into their coffers, even if its half a milion. The govt woukd earn the money back via extra economic activity when the VOR circus hits town. 

 

The VOR as organized is so well vertically and horizontally integrated anyone with money can just show up, agree on price and get the last boat. The sails are one design and have already been fabricated for the Fastnet qualifiers- boat can be ready to go within a week. 

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1 minute ago, Miffy said:

 

The VOR as organized is so well vertically and horizontally integrated anyone with money can just show up, agree on price and get the last boat. The sails are one design and have already been fabricated for the Fastnet qualifiers- boat can be ready to go within a week. 

If a new sail inventory exists for this boat, then it seems doable. With a good crew the boat might be competitive. I could even see Dalts being involved as just a crew member....hmmmm no

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3 hours ago, Chasm said:

Which SCA mmsi is that? The orginal SCA in Alciante is from 2015.

Yes, but unless it's changed, that is the one that maybe on the white boat sitting on stilts.  They reused AZZAM for Scalliwag and Vestas for T**3 so I figure they got one more to go.

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3 hours ago, mako23 said:

If a new sail inventory exists for this boat, then it seems doable. With a good crew the boat might be competitive. I could even see Dalts being involved as just a crew member....hmmmm no

The question is when do they need to be competitive.  Maybe I misunderstand, but Fastnet may be leg 0, but it does not count for anything other then a qualifier (race it, you're in).  NZ could put a boat on the line with a team of kids and if it finishes, they're good to go.  More then likely they put a team on, start to shake out the issues, spend the rest of the time drilling and hit the line ready come the start.  Sure, it would be nice to have bragging rights of first VOR over the line and all, but now it starts to be about the long game as well.

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34 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

The question is when do they need to be competitive.  Maybe I misunderstand, but Fastnet may be leg 0, but it does not count for anything other then a qualifier (race it, you're in).  NZ could put a boat on the line with a team of kids and if it finishes, they're good to go.  More then likely they put a team on, start to shake out the issues, spend the rest of the time drilling and hit the line ready come the start.  Sure, it would be nice to have bragging rights of first VOR over the line and all, but now it starts to be about the long game as well.

Everything you said I agree with....make sense to me.  The problem here in NZ  the AC is like a giant money vacum cleaner that sucks out all available yachting sponsorship dollars leaving no money for anything else.  So even if the VoR needs three million per boat...good luck finding that here.  Thats the problem with a small economy like NZ theres just not enough money to do VOR and AC yet twenty years ago no problem. Yet our exonomy is stronger now than it was twenty years ago.  Corporations here have become just as greedy as their USA counterparts and dont want to effect yearly profits, because that would effect the Chief Executive Bonus. What kept ETNZ alive during the years of no sponsorship was a kiwi and italian Multi Millionaire dipping into their pockets

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1 minute ago, mako23 said:

Everything you said I agree with....make sense to me.  The problem here in NZ  the AC is like a giant money vacum cleaner that sucks out all available yachting sponsorship dollars leaving no money for anything else.  So even if the VoR needs three million per boat...good luck finding that here.  Thats the problem with a small economy like NZ theres just not enough money to do VOR and AC yet twenty years ago no problem. Yet our exonomy is stronger now than it was twenty years ago.  Corporations here have become just as greedy as there USA counterparts

I think the next 5 days (do we have the patience) will tell the tale.  Personally, NZ ha the money locked up in private investment.  There are lots of opportunities to capitalize on both events.  Even if NZ didn't win the VOR, they're entry will keep the NZ public interested and allows the AC to build on that support.

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7 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

I think the next 5 days (do we have the patience) will tell the tale.  Personally, NZ ha the money locked up in private investment.  There are lots of opportunities to capitalize on both events.  Even if NZ didn't win the VOR, they're entry will keep the NZ public interested and allows the AC to build on that support.

I agree in a week or less we will know, The government use to help here in past,  now there purses are shut tight even after the government posted a surplus of 4 Billion which is a $1000 per kiwi which is not bad going

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2 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

The question is when do they need to be competitive.  Maybe I misunderstand, but Fastnet may be leg 0, but it does not count for anything other then a qualifier (race it, you're in).  NZ could put a boat on the line with a team of kids and if it finishes, they're good to go.  More then likely they put a team on, start to shake out the issues, spend the rest of the time drilling and hit the line ready come the start.  Sure, it would be nice to have bragging rights of first VOR over the line and all, but now it starts to be about the long game as well.

There's also an Atlantic crossing requirement I believe.  Time is running out. I'd say two weeks tops. 

 

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2 hours ago, Miffy said:

There's also an Atlantic crossing requirement I believe.  Time is running out. I'd say two weeks tops. 

 

This story has an element of bullshit about it. The story I'm sure has been reported correctly but Craig Monk must be leading the most slap dash racing team ever. Who would even invest in such a mickey mouse outfit. Learning how to sail your boat after the race is started is not a formula for success. Unless you can drum up some people with extensive Volvo Ocean 65 experience  there would be no way you could catch up with the training that other teams have done. I would also imagine that the required experienced staff have already been picked up by other syndicates. Also if your flat broke as reported you could not pay the required staff what they want. I don't think Craig Monk is brain dead so something else is at play here. 

1. This is a training run for a future VOR campaign and more importantly a VOR campaign that coincides with the Americas Cup.

2. ETNZ are going back to monohulls and need staff to up skill monohulls skills, however they don't want to dilute the Brand name by being associated with a Bad VOR campaign so are hiding their involvement via Craig Monk

3 Its a mixture of both 1 and 2 as reasons

4 Craig Monk is delusional and wants to run a real VOR Campaign with no training and no budget and this has nothing to do with ETNZ

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6 hours ago, mako23 said:

This story has an element of bullshit about it. The story I'm sure has been reported correctly but Craig Monk must be leading the most slap dash racing team ever. Who would even invest in such a mickey mouse outfit. Learning how to sail your boat after the race is started is not a formula for success. Unless you can drum up some people with extensive Volvo Ocean 65 experience  there would be no way you could catch up with the training that other teams have done. I would also imagine that the required experienced staff have already been picked up by other syndicates. Also if your flat broke as reported you could not pay the required staff what they want. I don't think Craig Monk is brain dead so something else is at play here. 

1. This is a training run for a future VOR campaign and more importantly a VOR campaign that coincides with the Americas Cup.

2. ETNZ are going back to monohulls and need staff to up skill monohulls skills, however they don't want to dilute the Brand name by being associated with a Bad VOR campaign so are hiding their involvement via Craig Monk

3 Its a mixture of both 1 and 2 as reasons

4 Craig Monk is delusional and wants to run a real VOR Campaign with no training and no budget and this has nothing to do with ETNZ

Optics is becoming such a hated word these days, but it has to be considered.  Personally, I don't think people who could report on this stuff are doing so, because like all modern day reporting, they don't want to piss off access to big named people.  How hard would it be to put a watcher at the Boatyard to see if anything is changing.  Follow the money or follow the people for at some point, so and so would be talking to so and so. Either way,

4 is a non-starter.

3 is closest to the potential.  Dalton (whom I never heard of till recently) may have deep enough pockets and or contacts to start funding a team.  He publicly stated a change for the AC36, touching on the VOR.  I don't think that NZ needs a win for the visibility, because the optics are about the future.  Folks keep saying there is not enough talent, but how do we know.  The most important talent is decisions makers, after that you just need skilled sailors willing to sail for 9 months.  Look at SCA, they had maybe the least experienced, but each leg they got better till they won one.  Maybe hiding this till the last moment is genius since it keeps people interested (and guessing like here) which could draw more in.  Attention span is short these days so if a bunch of greenish Kiwis show up last minute with a white hull and used sails, it could be spun like "Look at those scrappy Kiwis underdogs ready to battle the titans" or "First they had to win the Cup, now they set eyes on the biggest race ever and though the odds are stacked against them, so they were in the last AC and look what happened".

Seriously, you New Zealanders might bitch and moan about money, but when it comes to supporting a team, especially one facing the odds....that's good optics and a country cheers :-)  Maybe I should be their PR guy for this story writes itself.  It would be a shame if NZ didn't take the risk, because the order of events like this do not happen, but rare

Win the Cup
Potentially announce a protocol change for monohulls
Enter/compete in the VOR (Training)
Enter/compete in the VOR (foiling go for the win)
Host the ACs in foiling monohulls.

Add to that a VOR Stop....no brainer.

 That adds up to tourist dollars big time and given  the current state of the world, maybe businesses wanting a more stable place to work.

 

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Following nowadays well working commercial approach, there ususually is  'A' product/team and 'B' product/team, like  F1 etc.
'B' team is just a bit less funded, altho share same tech like 'A', but give the chance to shine to the new talents at lower expense. 
Combine with host city income - mathematics can work for ETNZ 'B', as VOR extra value attached to AC main stake.
Not to mention they already have participants, as individuals at almost all major sailing invents.

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We will just have to wait. Fun to speculate while we do.

Dalts has certainly make it known he thinks the VOR is a peer prize to the AC, and Burlington has suggested the same - a trio of Olympic, AC, and VOR being a goal.  Which is a sentiment that must warm MT's heart. But if Dalts wants to win the VOR he isn't going to manage it in one hit. Not with a dominantly NZ team. Too many of the greats are either past it, or scattered to the four winds. It is the right time to start to grow the next round of talent. If the VOR is to stay at about 8 boats, we can think of a sensible sustainable balance as 3 to 4 contenders, two to three teams in training and one or two mid-range competitors that will snap at the podium but are unlikely to win. Which is arguably a good mix. Top teams have a habit of vanishing once they have won the crown, unless they have a very solid national base.

We will have to wait and see what really happens, but a NZ junior level team would be a great thing.  Sure, some may tag it as a "charity" team, implying that they only made it to the line because the VOR provided a huge discount, or the sponsors are not international brands (or both).  But in the end what matters that a team of sailors are signing up for 9 months of serious commitment and there is a path into the future.

No doubt, the path we got here by is a tortured one. If the planet was replete with billionaires wanting to blow a year of their lives in misery on the high seas, and bankroll the effort, it would be a different race.

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Do you really think that sailing a VOR could be a good training for a AC campaign? 

  • Boat will be radically different
  • Crew is limited in number and the required skills are somehow different from blue water to day sailing. Experienced sailors are mandatory
  • A training of a complete new crew with backups require fast rotation, that is not doable in a VOR campaign where the legs are 20+ days long
  • Wind limits will surely apply for AC (I do not thing that they will sail in 35+ nkots)

It is much much simpler to buy or to rent a foiling IMOCA60.

The only point could be to be "publicly visible" and so having a return from showing the brand.

This week is pivotal... let's see

 

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1 hour ago, ITA602 said:

Do you really think that sailing a VOR could be a good training for a AC campaign? 

  • Boat will be radically different
  • Crew is limited in number and the required skills are somehow different from blue water to day sailing. Experienced sailors are mandatory
  • A training of a complete new crew with backups require fast rotation, that is not doable in a VOR campaign where the legs are 20+ days long
  • Wind limits will surely apply for AC (I do not thing that they will sail in 35+ nkots)

It is much much simpler to buy or to rent a foiling IMOCA60.

The only point could be to be "publicly visible" and so having a return from showing the brand.

This week is pivotal... let's see

 

Winning the VOR is already in itself a big deal, so I don't think it matters whether it's good training for the AC. Maybe there could be synergies in the future, if the designs were more similar and the racing schedules would allow teams to take part in both events.

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