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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
JeronimoII

VOR 2017-18

2,472 posts in this topic

The Scallywag 100 is still going through its refit, is it going to be sailing at all during the VOR with a different skip? Or is that whole project being put on hold?

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On 8-7-2017 at 7:23 PM, Alinghi4ever said:

@ couch,

Welcome back mate :) 106 Days before VOR 2017/18 Start.

+1.

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23 hours ago, Miffy said:

 

23 hours ago, Miffy said:

...I've never rooted against a team before, guess there is a first for everything. Damn shame it had to be sponsored from Hong Kong.

.

 

..No need to wince about it laddy, weve now got the 'Good ole Boys' team to 'cheer' for,, should add nicely to the entertainment package better than anything Martinez ever did, or even 'dontchaknowhoIam' Ainslie could ever dream of. The race would not be nearly as good if all boats had bunked-in with the girls!:rolleyes:

...And anyone in HK should be darn pleased with such an opportunity...Play pan face with farkWitt, and you should get a nice tour and some candid answers to whatever life questions are burning your mind when you interview him. :lol:

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Gosh its gone quiet here. Not exactly long to go.

It occurs to me that Mr Witt is probably exactly correct when he talks about a "social experiment." After all, it isn't every day that you place seven knuckle dragging misogynist Neanderthals* in a boat with a couple of talented professional women sailors. Sort of sad that they are essentially the team from Oz.  I wonder what it will be like being the media crew on their boat.

We really need a story about the 8'th boat, if there is to be one, pretty soon.  If Peter Burling wants a go, this is possibly his best chance for a while, as he may be rather occupied to consider it in two years time. Then again, it isn't as if he is exactly short on remaining career time.

*OK, that is probably unfair to the other six members of the team, at least until proven otherwise.

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Witt has named one 21 year old as part of the crew but the other 5 remain a mystery at this stage.  Not sure why.  In a video on SailWorld he certainly pushes that they are all very very experienced !!

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Can someone summarize for me how David Witt achieved his current level of notoriety? I don't really know anything about him other than what's been discussed here so far.

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2 hours ago, DtM said:

Witt has named one 21 year old as part of the crew but the other 5 remain a mystery at this stage.  Not sure why.  In a video on SailWorld he certainly pushes that they are all very very experienced !!

I wonder if Capey will do another edition. And if so, with Bouwe or the Team alpha-male.

For the record, Neanderthalensis never reached down-under. I think they would take it as an insult to be compared to Team alpha-male.

Spreading_homo_sapiens_la.svg.png

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On 06/07/2017 at 0:31 AM, Potter said:

I assume this will help the designers of the new 60 decide if they are to innovate or not.

Hybrid or electric only for Volvo

 

On 06/07/2017 at 3:46 AM, bucc5062 said:

Just heard that this morning and thought the same thing.  All electric by 2019 would really be a boost to the R&D for doing so on a sailboat.  This will be interesting.

Often renewable energy advocates in their enthusiasm can conjure up their own train smash. Great Britain has recently had a lightbulb moment talking of mandating that all new cars be EV's from a date not too far off. Someone then decided it might be a good idea to do the maths.

Firstly commercial/trucks consume the majority of fossel fuels, not cars. So we may be waiting a while for the all electric Volvo truck line. Secondly the additional energy capacity required to charge these electric suckers using renewables meant the country's entire coastline plus some would be a sea of giant propellors. Seems it is on the back burner now until the time comes that cars can scoot off all by themselves to get charged at off peak load times.

Those advocating the 100% renewable VOR might have to wait until it is either a non-crewed race or humans can drink saltwater...mmmm or it goes less energy required multi :-)

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Could be a few more icy chunks to avoid down south for the boys and girls when they get there   -- a 5000km^2 chunk of Larsen C just broke off.

 

Anyone know how long it takes for pieces of these things to start circulating in the upper 50's?

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17 hours ago, jbc said:

Can someone summarize for me how David Witt achieved his current level of notoriety? I don't really know anything about him other than what's been discussed here so far.

Skiff sailer (18 footers)  gained notoriety by managing to helm Nokia to Hobart when the Volvo fleet used this as a leg...  Hard reaching running conditions and NOKIA was first Volvo Boat and set race record in 1999.  Sponged off the King of Tonga for a while sailing his yacht and has been involved with Lludde Ingvall with Yuuzoo / Nicorrette 

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Surely the 8th Volvo Boat may involve the Manouch Moshayedi & Keith Kilpatrick  RIO 100 team :)   

Luckily for us, we have a very experienced crew who have all been with the boat since its christening, plus we have onboard  multiple Volvo veterans, Chris Nicholson, Justin Ferris, Bouwe Bekking, Will Oaxley, and our own ace craftsman and Magyver, Jeff Messano onboard who came up with a plan.

Obviously Bouwe has been 'claimed' ... but the rest..... sounds like a great 'crew training' opportunty running to Hawaii....  

 

I mentioned Nicho a few posts ago... watch this space    ;)

 

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3 hours ago, xsailmakerSYD said:

Surely the 8th Volvo Boat may involve the Manouch Moshayedi & Keith Kilpatrick  RIO 100 team :)   

Luckily for us, we have a very experienced crew who have all been with the boat since its christening, plus we have onboard  multiple Volvo veterans, Chris Nicholson, Justin Ferris, Bouwe Bekking, Will Oaxley, and our own ace craftsman and Magyver, Jeff Messano onboard who came up with a plan.

Obviously Bouwe has been 'claimed' ... but the rest..... sounds like a great 'crew training' opportunty running to Hawaii....  

 

I mentioned Nicho a few posts ago... watch this space    ;)

 

Niet

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7 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Firstly commercial/trucks consume the majority of fossel fuels, not cars.

1

Where'd you get this? I am pretty sure cars are 2-3 x commercial trucks.

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3 hours ago, nroose said:

Where'd you get this? I am pretty sure cars are 2-3 x commercial trucks.

indeed..

 

oil-consumption-by-sector-usa-2004.jpg

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11 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

 

Those advocating the 100% renewable VOR might have to wait until it is either a non-crewed race or humans can drink saltwater...mmmm or it goes less energy required multi :-)

Seems like your statistics are about as accurate as the rest of your post Jack!

Internal combustion engines have only been present on ships and boats of any kind in the last hundred years or so yet people have been crossing oceans in monohull and multihull boats and ships for thousands of years. Do you seriously think that in the 21st century humans have suddenly become so stupid that they can't work out how to race across the oceans in a sailing boat without having a diesel engine running almost everyday?

Sure we would all agree that a VO65 is not going to manage it. A suitable design is required, and the combination of best design and best sailors will win, and that is just one of many reasons why I would like to see the end of one-design for this race.

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8 hours ago, duncan (the other one) said:

indeed..

 

oil-consumption-by-sector-usa-2004.jpg

Transport isn't even the biggest consumer of fossil fuels... it's 'stationary energy' a.k.a. power generation and industrial.

Electricity/heat, industrial and buildings is 57% of emissions according to this source. Transport is only 14%.

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10 hours ago, staysail said:

Seems like your statistics are about as accurate as the rest of your post Jack!

Internal combustion engines have only been present on ships and boats of any kind in the last hundred years or so yet people have been crossing oceans in monohull and multihull boats and ships for thousands of years. 

I think you forgot they had a thing called tankage, electricity hadn't been invented  and anyway as soon as each form of stored energy came into being, it was immediately grabbed by the marine world, starting with coal. Renewable energy whether it be in a raceboat or anywhere, always comes with some form of penalty or trade-off. That's a fact you seem to forget.

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

I think you forgot they had a thing called tankage, electricity hadn't been invented  and anyway as soon as each form of stored energy came into being, it was immediately grabbed by the marine world, starting with coal. Renewable energy whether it be in a raceboat or anywhere, always comes with some form of penalty or trade-off. That's a fact you seem to forget.

Could you use that in a better sentence for it makes no sense, even when I looked up the word.  


tankage

1.
the capacity of a tank or tanks.
2.
the act or process of storing liquid in a tank.
3.
the fee charged for such storage.
4.
the residue from tanks in which carcasses and other offal have beensteamed and the fat has been rendered, used as a fertilizer.

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22 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

Someone then decided it might be a good idea to do the maths.

 

 

It would be no bad idea for you to do some maths to see how just how easy it can be for a forward moving boat to generate way more electricity than needed to sustain the need for water for a crew, and with minimal drag. If you call it a "sailboat", don't you see that it is really cheating to rely totally both for drinking water and for powering essential boat systems, on a desel engine? If you allow yourself to power the keel mechanism with electro-hydraulics, then why not electric winches? autopilots?, where do you stop?
It is so simple to return the race to at least a semblance of purity (and encourage design and innovation) simply by prohibiting the use of fossil fuel completely.

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8 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Could you use that in a better sentence for it makes no sense, even when I looked up the word.  


tankage

1.
the capacity of a tank or tanks.
2.
the act or process of storing liquid in a tank.
3.
the fee charged for such storage.
4.
the residue from tanks in which carcasses and other offal have beensteamed and the fat has been rendered, used as a fertilizer.

Try a means for storing water where in this context, back then they didn't have the technology to make water, only the means to collect and store it, so there was no need for stored energy.

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I can't believe we are still doing this. 

 

Look ok I embrace environmentalism and wish we can leave the planet better than we found it. But seriously, the boats use about 4 liters of diesel A DAY. Between the crew's water needs, the electricity powers the substantial coverage electronics. They don't even have a cool box, and have water demands of basically 100 liters every 12 hours. 

 

If if you want VOR boats with huge fresh drinking water tanks for the long legs, ok. I get that. 

If you want to talk seriously about hydro gen and solar, which I personally have used and enjoy, ok we can do that. But at this point this obsession about eliminating 4 liters of diesel a day while underway just screams irrational obsession. Just look at the logistics train the VOR carries. 

If you want to be green? Eliminate new boats and make them sail on the existing ones until they're broken. Get rid of the traveling journalists and make everything telecommunications. 

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3 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Try a means for storing water where in this context, back then they didn't have the technology to make water, only the means to collect and store it, so there was no need for stored energy.

Thank you.  Now I understand the proper context .

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This race needs to start soon.

 

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12 minutes ago, staysail said:

It would be no bad idea for you to do some maths to see how just how easy it can be for a forward moving boat to generate way more electricity than needed to sustain the need for water for a crew, and with minimal drag. If you call it a "sailboat", don't you see that it is really cheating to rely totally both for drinking water and for powering essential boat systems, on a desel engine? If you allow yourself to power the keel mechanism with electro-hydraulics, then why not electric winches? autopilots?, where do you stop?
It is so simple to return the race to at least a semblance of purity (and encourage design and innovation) simply by prohibiting the use of fossil fuel completely.

Gee it must have been a long and torturous journey for that thought to cross your mind. The maths is simple. Energy demand cannot exceed reliable supply/storage capability having regard for the application/platform.

The alternatives to diesel being used to as a means for energy storage all come with a penalty and in a race boat that will be sacrificing demand, reliability and energy storage weight. So sure go 100% renewable, but be prepared to take a hit somewhere.

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Jack. I apologize for sounding as dumb as I did a few months back. I am that dumb, I'm just apologizing. These guys might never get what you're saying...

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Well Jack and Miffy, you can take a horse to water!

Keep on truckin in your gasoil powered "sailboats".

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If ad hominem will make the environmental challenges go away - you can use me as a punching bag all you want. 

Until then?

Figure out how to produce 200 liters in 24hr without a 10amp draw at 12volt in cold southern ocean conditions, power communication gear that supplies the VOR product and keeps the sailors safe. 

 

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Just reading the Fastnet entry list.  7 boats listed, but Class total noted as 8.  Can we read this as there is a confirmed 8th that is withholding their announcement until closer? Or VOR just living in hope?

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2 hours ago, staysail said:

Well Jack and Miffy, you can take a horse to water!

Keep on truckin in your gasoil powered "sailboats".

Actually like most things your also wrong there.

I've got a SH expedition mono that is kept light and fast to be able to pick my weather. I've therefore got very limited tankage for both water and diesel noting both are limited in supply and or quality in most places this thing goes. My only concessions to weight is lots of fresh food/refrigeration, systems redundancy, tools/parts/materials and inner spring mattresses.

My energy solution is big arsed diesel powered alternators, lots of LFP storage and both engine driven and electric water maker pumps. That generation is supplemented with some solar (largely at anchor & portable to max output with limited solar real estate on a mono plus a desire for no junk hanging off the back) and hydro when passage making. I would rather gouge an eye out with a spoon than have a wind generator. Nothing has appeared on the market yet to better that hybrid solution, that is 6 years old now.

With maybe the recent advent of  photovoltaics being bonded to performance sailcloth, I also suspect the above hybrid is also the closest you will see in the foreseeable future to sucessfully  reduce fossil fuel dependency on crewed RTW race boats.

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8 hours ago, dangerousdave said:

Transport isn't even the biggest consumer of fossil fuels... it's 'stationary energy' a.k.a. power generation and industrial.

Electricity/heat, industrial and buildings is 57% of emissions according to this source. Transport is only 14%.

Your link is for global numbers. The charts you quoted are for US. I am not sure how good the numbers are from regular cars around the world. Adding up the industrial numbers is a lot easier.

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Tuke announced as being hired by MAPFRE. So, our hopes to have ETNZ as the 8th boat are gone.  Looking at timing (Fastnet qualifying race starts Aug 6th, in three weeks), the 8th boat is looking unlikely (or VOR forfeits the qualifying race). 

 

http://www.expansion.com/nauta360/mapfre-in-the-vor/2017/07/14/596861e6268e3e12558b4577.html

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Lordy, I'll repeat something I said before. With current technology, albeit at the leading edge, it is viable to run an incident free VOR race totally with hydro-power. My expectations are that the round after this may well require it.  However, there is currently no known way we can fit a boat out to meet modern accepted levels of safety for a deep ocean class 0 race without an emergency power source that is capable of being refuelled at sea.  They only viable fuel for this is diesel.

Some people may still regard the VOR as an adventure. Clearly some people regard it more as a reality TV show than a race. If you want to watch a reality show where people are placed in serious danger, and may even die, you are in the wrong place. There is zero chance that the VOR will run a race that so endangers its crews, and zero chance that the ISAF will relax the rules for class 0 races so that such endangerment happens. None.

A VOR boat is not a multi-hundred ton exploration ship with a years rations, tons of water and the resources to rebuild rigs from scratch from on-board stores. Nor is is some sort of modern day Kon-Tiki with barely sane adventures aboard, living life on the edge of survival. It is a race boat. The purpose of the Volvo Ocean Race is to race the boats. Not to be explorers or provide entertainment to landbound voyeurs that get off on car accidents.

The VOR is clearly going to pursue a low to zero carbon race.  They are not going to pursue a race where they recklessly endanger the crews.

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4 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Lordy, I'll repeat something I said before. With current technology, albeit at the leading edge, it is viable to run an incident free VOR race totally with hydro-power.

Francis have you actually used current high spec hydro on a boat and gone places with it??? I suspect not by saying that as you would remember all that time you spent clearing weed off, rebuilding the fuckers because they are like an attractotrom for other objects in the ocean, their regulators are prone to spitting the dummy etc. Hydro is still a supplementary or emergency generating source in a RTW race boat...not primary.

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Crew of Vestas 11th hour

Nick Dana (boat captain)
Hannah Diamond
Charlie Enright (skipper)
Simon Fisher (nav)
Damien Foxall
Jena Mai Hansen
Phil Harmer
Tomi Johnson
Tony Muter
MArk Towill (team director)

 

 

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Finally some movement on crews, I wonder who is next.

Less than 100 days to go!

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5 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Francis have you actually used current high spec hydro on a boat and gone places with it??? I suspect not by saying that as you would remember all that time you spent clearing weed off, rebuilding the fuckers because they are like an attractotrom for other objects in the ocean, their regulators are prone to spitting the dummy etc. Hydro is still a supplementary or emergency generating source in a RTW race boat...not primary.

Jack, a race boat which uses no fossil fuel will have an electric motor to drive the propeller and this motor will/can be of similar power rating to the present Volvo Penta diesel. To charge the battery they won't use anything like the Watt&Sea or its competitors (which I agree are fussy and flimsy), they will simply let the propulsion propeller auto-rotate and spin the propulsion motor. An electric propulsion motor is basically the same animal as a dynamo or an alternator, and well-made electric motors are common, robust and reliable.

Such an electric motor can be coupled to the same saildrive and propeller so the "weed catching" and reliability issues connected with the drive are no different to what the boats already experience with the existing propulsion system. The folding Gori can auto-rotate so the drive motor can regenerate, even using exactly the same leg and prop as current boats. Once you get your head around the concept that the boat will have a big robust electric motor and a prop/turbine which is just as robust as what they have now maybe you can accept there is no reason why the system can't be as reliable as a factory fork lift truck with a re-chargeable battery. For pretty obvious reasons the folding Gori is less than ideal when the motor is being used in battery charging mode and a true variable pitch fully feathering prop is what is needed and this is where some development is needed as they are not marketed yet for small enough power ratings, but this is coming. I read recently in Seahorse about a not-too-huge sailing superyacht which has a variable pitch prop rated not greatly more than 100 hp.

The sums Francis did about consumption look pretty reasonable to me but for some reason he has less faith than I that the systems can be reliable. I can't understand why, but then I am an electrical and a mechanical engineer. Electric railway trains are fairly reliable, golf carts, elevators, fork lift trucks, even cars nowadays, and reliable electric boats have been around for donkey's years. Seems Francis probably accepts that you can put electricity into a motor and drive something with it reliably. He just has a problem accepting that you can do the same thing with the torque and the current going in the other direction, with the same degree of reliability.

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4 hours ago, rgeek said:

Crew of Vestas 11th hour

Good bunch of sailors. Loved Jena Hansen's candid comment, even if it was just VOR PR hype! Any one else remember their first time on the helm at night, and out of sight of land?

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Staysail yeah those are real issues with transom hung generators. I have no idea about the specs that a single electric propulsion/generation motor might have that but I suspect the speed cutoff between consumption and generation on a crewed boat is going to be around 9/10k assuming average daily load on a crewed boat is probably in the order of 250 Ahrs @ 24v. Generation capacity increases exponentially to BS so generation is probably not the issue. The weight of something like this with it's heavy propulsion components must be pretty horendous not to mention that of the additional energy storage required to accommodate the load peaks and periods when conditions are not conjusive to hydrogeneration. On a foiling boat that may well be quite a lot of time.

To make the system reliable enough for its intended use means adding a lot of weight at every turn which is not great news for a foiling boat. They are going to need some other form of generation to be able to do away with the weight penalty of those hydro reliability add ons. At present it looks like solar will have to fill that gap and with the limitations on solar real estate on a mono race boat, just as much development work will have to occur in this arena too.

Hydro alone won't be the answer.

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50 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Staysail yeah those are real issues with transom hung generators. I have no idea about the specs that a single electric propulsion motor might have that but I suspect the speed cutoff between consumption and generation on a crewed boat is going to be around 9/10k assuming average daily load on a crewed boat is probably in the order of 250 Ahrs @ 24v. The weight of something like this and it's propulsion components must be pretty horendous not to mention that of the additional energy storage required to accommodate the load peaks and periods when conditions are not conjusive to hydrogeneration.  To make the system reliable enough for its intended use means adding a lot of weight at every turn which is not great news for a foiling boat. They are going to need some other form of generation to be able to do away with the weight penalty of those hydro reliability add ons. At present it looks like solar will have to fill that gap and with the limitations on solar real estate on a mono race boat, just as much development work will have to occur in this arena too. Hydro alone won't be the answer.

You talk a lot of shit

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Staysail yeah those are real issues with transom hung generators. I have no idea about the specs that a single electric propulsion/generation motor might have that but I suspect the speed cutoff between consumption and generation on a crewed boat is going to be around 9/10k assuming average daily load on a crewed boat is probably in the order of 250 Ahrs @ 24v. Generation capacity increases exponentially to BS so generation is probably not the issue. The weight of something like this with it's heavy propulsion components must be pretty horendous not to mention that of the additional energy storage required to accommodate the load peaks and periods when conditions are not conjusive to hydrogeneration. On a foiling boat that may well be quite a lot of time.

To make the system reliable enough for its intended use means adding a lot of weight at every turn which is not great news for a foiling boat. They are going to need some other form of generation to be able to do away with the weight penalty of those hydro reliability add ons. At present it looks like solar will have to fill that gap and with the limitations on solar real estate on a mono race boat, just as much development work will have to occur in this arena too.

Hydro alone won't be the answer.

Jack, your figures 250Ah at 24 v per day is 6 kwh per day, or on a continuous basis, 250 watts. Francis added it all up and estimated 10 Kwh/day, or 417 watts. I wouldn't argue with either.

A propulsion motor (either a diesel engine or an electric motor) with a rated output of 55 kw will do about the same job of driving the boat at a speed considerably less than what it normally sails at, maybe something like 10 knots? To do that if it's an electric motor it is consuming 55 kw. So, sail the boat at 10 knots and let the propellor spin and turn the motor and load it up until it just doesn't cavitate the prop and the motor will be generating 55kw. That is between 100 and 150 times as much electric power as you need, and it would probably slow the boat down by a few knots if you loaded the motor up that much. But you only need to load it up to 1% of the power which you would use to drive the boat and the drag at such light load with an almost fully feathered prop, will be trivial. You simply won't notice the drag.

Weight of the 80 HP Torqeedo motor is 80 kg, far lighter than a gasoil engine, and you don't need a gearbox. Total system weight including 2 batteries giving you between 50 and 100 kwh usable storage is about 400 kg.

The Volvo diesel (FV figures, weighs 264 kg but to that you have to add the batteries the boat now carries, all the gubbins that goes with a diesel like fuel filters, cooling pipes, sewater piping system, plus the engine start and house batteries, all now not needed, and of course a fuel tank and umpteen gallons of gasoil. The all electric system is actually lighter.

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People, I happen to agree with Staysail that it can be done, but perhaps not quite yet. I certainly would not like to rely on a folding Gori to provide much of anything when rotating in the reverse direction, I had one for 28 years, but a feathering prop with the right blade design and gearing could do it. However, the lax use of terminology might be confusing a lot of readers. The latest edition of the VOR 65 is fitted with a 'hydro-generator', but to my knowledge it is not capable of driving the boat it is simply a one way device.  What Staysail is talking about is basically a reversible electric motor that can both drive the boat when powered, and will generate electricity when 'free-wheeling' for want of a better expression.

Now please will either someone (Staysail) provide a link to an appropriate example, albeit not yet quite sufficient, so that interested parties can peruse, or can we please move this discussion to a new forum, so we can get back to the subject of this forum which is the forthcoming VOR race which starts with the FASTNET in 3 weeks!!!!!!!!!!!

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18 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

People, I happen to agree with Staysail that it can be done, but perhaps not quite yet. I certainly would not like to rely on a folding Gori to provide much of anything when rotating in the reverse direction, I had one for 28 years, but a feathering prop with the right blade design and gearing could do it. However, the lax use of terminology might be confusing a lot of readers. The latest edition of the VOR 65 is fitted with a 'hydro-generator', but to my knowledge it is not capable of driving the boat it is simply a one way device.  What Staysail is talking about is basically a reversible electric motor that can both drive the boat when powered, and will generate electricity when 'free-wheeling' for want of a better expression.

Now please will either someone (Staysail) provide a link to an appropriate example, albeit not yet quite sufficient, so that interested parties can peruse, or can we please move this discussion to a new forum, so we can get back to the subject of this forum which is the forthcoming VOR race which starts with the FASTNET in 3 weeks!!!!!!!!!!!

http://media.torqeedo.com/catalogs/torqeedo-catalogue-2017-uk.pdf

It looks as if Torqeedo make a suitable motor and batteries but like the others, although they acknowledge that regeneration is simple enough they haven't developed it and don't offer a VP feathering prop. Also they have obviously not concentrated on optimising the weight and simplicity which would be needed in a raceboat for maximum reliability at minimum weight. A zero emission raceboat is simply a market they are not aiming at yet. They seem to be looking at flexibility so their kit can be offered for any type of boat, just by plugging different standard bits together but that makes for too much interconnection, unnecessary complication, low reliability and unnecessary weight. The basic bits, namely motors and batteries seem to be out there but development in control systems and props is needed for true zero emissions sailing.

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27 minutes ago, staysail said:

http://media.torqeedo.com/catalogs/torqeedo-catalogue-2017-uk.pdf

It looks as if Torqeedo make a suitable motor and batteries but like the others, although they acknowledge that regeneration is simple enough they haven't developed it and don't offer a VP feathering prop. Also they have obviously not concentrated on optimising the weight and simplicity which would be needed in a raceboat for maximum reliability at minimum weight. A zero emission raceboat is simply a market they are not aiming at yet. They seem to be looking at flexibility so their kit can be offered for any type of boat, just by plugging different standard bits together but that makes for too much interconnection, unnecessary complication, low reliability and unnecessary weight. The basic bits, namely motors and batteries seem to be out there but development in control systems and props is needed for true zero emissions sailing.

Thanks Staysail,

Okay Mr. Clean, getting industry interested/involved in some other important aspects of environmental responsibility through world wide exposure of RTW race boats seems to me to be an important topic for you in your next meeting with MT, although VOR may be too late by then, unless some pressure is applied now.

Okay, now I return you to the topic of this forum. Over to our on-site correspondent!

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Posted (edited)

I knew I should have posted that fugly picture, now I have to recreate it...

Oceanvolt vs. watt&sea racing. The w&s graph has been twisted to scale. And no, you can't really compare them this way since there is no info about the specific oceanvolt setup (gori or flexofold, and so on) but it is close enough for a first look.

 

oceanvolt-wattandsea-comparison-fugly-1.png.7edf9d9f78b62d57c83598407798e089.png

For those that did not see it they have also an article about what Conrad used for the VG. (Without any diesel other than the sealed emergency generator and fuel.)

Edited by Chasm
Now with the right picture....

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12 hours ago, staysail said:

The sums Francis did about consumption look pretty reasonable to me but for some reason he has less faith than I that the systems can be reliable.

I have no trouble with the reliability of the electric systems. My issue comes from one simple reality.  Energy density.  We can't easily store enough power on a boat to give it the same emergency range as the current requirements provide for.

The Cat 0 rules from the ISAF say this:

Propulsion Engines

  • engines and associated systems installed in accordance with their manufacturers’ guidelines and suitable for the size and intended use of the boat
  • an engine which provides a minimum speed in knots of (1.8 x √LWL in metres) or (√ LWL in feet) inboard engine
  • an inboard engine shall have a permanently installed exhaust, cooling system, fuel supply, fuel tank(s) and shall have adequate heavy weather protection

Fuel Systems

  • All fuel tanks shall be rigid (but may have permanently installed flexible linings) and shall have a shutoff valve
  • At the start a boat shall carry sufficient fuel to meet charging requirements for the duration of the race and to motor at the above minimum speed for at least 8 hours

The minimum speed for a VO65 is almost exactly 8 knots.  This needs pretty close to 20kW to achieve. 8h x 20kW = 160kWh. A VO65 carries 120 litres of emergency fuel in sealed containers.  The emergency nature of the requirement means you cannot discharge your battery system below the 160kWh mark. So this is storage in addition to the storage needed for ordinary sailing. From Oceanvolt this is 2.2 metric tonnes of battery. A 20kw emergency diesel generator comes in at about 150kg. A D1-30 needs 5.5 litre/hour at 20kW. So 44 litres. Call the whole thing 200kg. (I'm not accounting for inefficiencies here, so it will be more.) I really doubt that the idea of a top end racing boat needing 1/4 of its mass in emergency power is going to enthuse many. A couple of hundred kg of emergency diesel generator is a lot more palatable. Seal it up in a box, and it only gets opened when things get bad.

For many Cat 0 races 8 hours is probably fine. A S2H should be OK, but getting close to marginal.  But a trans-ocean race? 8 hours motoring time is pretty small when your nearest haven is 1000 miles away. So, in addition to the requirement for 8 hours motoring at 8 knots, we have another problem.  That of being disabled in the deep ocean. The ISAF rules don't address this directly - mostly because they seem to assume a diesel.  You can refuel with diesel from almost any nearby ship. You can't get a recharge from a passing ship, at least not for the forseeable future. Sure, a jury rig or the kite may help in some circumstances, but not all. Progress is going to be slow, and food will become an issue. And your speed must be enough to power the hydrogenerator to keep the water-maker nav and comms working. Would suck to be becalmed. You could add another couple of tons of battery I suppose.

As I mentioned earlier, diesel fuel cell technology is being developed, and one could imagine replacing the diesel engine with one.  But you are still burning diesel fuel. So the low carbon ideal isn't helped.

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Francis, people have been sailing the world without engines for years and the rules simply don't cater for a system which can regenerate and store its own energy supply! Why are you so fixated on staying in the past?

Once you have exhausted your emergency gasoil you are stuffed.

With a re-generating motor and a battery you have an unlimited motoring range. Which one do you think is better and safer?

Do you really think the scenario where an intelligent group of people with a very easily driven but dismasted hull and all the things a VO65 carries cannot get it moving fast enough to generate less than 1% of the energy it takes to push it along at a displacement speed? Also, in non-racing mode don't forget the energy consumption would be an order of magnitude lower anyway.

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11 minutes ago, staysail said:

Francis, people have been sailing the world without engines for years and the rules simply don't cater for a system which can regenerate and store its own energy supply! Why are you so fixated on staying in the past?

If you can convince the ISAF that they should delete the requirement for 8 hours emergency motoring I might be more inclined to agree. It isn't me you have to convince.  Until the ISAF do delete this rule, or the VOR decide that they feel happy enough to ignore the ISAF rules, you are talking to the wind.

With a re-generating motor and a battery you have an unlimited motoring range. Which one do you think is better and safer?

Last time I looked, that is a perpetual motion machine. I don't think you are suggesting that they recharge the batteries from the forward motion of the boat when motoring under electric power, but if they are dismasted or becalmed that is what you said.

Be absolutely clear. Everything I wrote above is in order to meet the requirements for emergency motive power. The ISAF rules require 8 hours at 8 knots. It seems you don't think this is a useful safety rule.

For ordinary racing, I am quite comfortable with regenerated power and batteries.

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16 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

If you can convince the ISAF that they should delete the requirement for 8 hours emergency motoring I might be more inclined to agree. It isn't me you have to convince.  Until the ISAF do delete this rule, or the VOR decide that they feel happy enough to ignore the ISAF rules, you are talking to the wind.

 

 

Last time I looked, that is a perpetual motion machine. I don't think you are suggesting that they recharge the batteries from the forward motion of the boat when motoring under electric power, but if they are dismasted or becalmed that is what you said.

Be absolutely clear. Everything I wrote above is in order to meet the requirements for emergency motive power. The ISAF rules require 8 hours at 8 knots. It seems you don't think this is a useful safety rule.

For ordinary racing, I am quite comfortable with regenerated power and batteries.

Francis, with this remark about "perpetual motion machine" you are trivialising the issue rather than actually adressing it. This is your usual tactic when you want to avoid giving an answer to a reasonable question, and by now I have come to expect it, and it isn't clever. In my post, and previous ones which you have read, it was clear enough that I expect the crew to be able to get some kind of jury rig up. Most racing people do manage that.

I don't see that being able to motor the boat 64 miles, after which not only can you not motor any more, but you will also have exhausted your gasoil and so will lose your ability to desalinate water, as a huge safety feature if you are dismasted at a remote place in the worlds oceans! If you had any sense you would conserve your gasoil for watermaking purposes and to keep your comms alive so the motoring aspect of the rule is out of the window anyway as regards this race, simply because no one in their right mind is going to motor 64 miles.

So yes, I don't think the ISAF rule is particularly useful, and especially it is neither useful nor relevant to an electric powered raceboat.

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Tell you what, ask Ken Read. See if he would agree with you.  Like I said, part of the point of diesel is the ability to refuel at sea. You are not stuffed if you are within reach of a passing ship. And this isn't academic. We have experience with exactly scenario.

You seem to be happy to build a boat that will have maybe half an hour of motoring time, and then must generate power from its motion under jury rig.  MOB in heavy seas at night and you may as well not bother trying a rescue.

You need to provide a set of requirements. Then see what technology will meet them.

I strongly suggest that you start with requirements that include MOB at night in bad weather, nightime dismasting, as well as dismasting 1000 miles from land.

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24 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Tell you what, ask Ken Read. See if he would agree with you.  Like I said, part of the point of diesel is the ability to refuel at sea. You are not stuffed if you are within reach of a passing ship. And this isn't academic. We have experience with exactly scenario.

You seem to be happy to build a boat that will have maybe half an hour of motoring time, and then must generate power from its motion under jury rig.  MOB in heavy seas at night and you may as well not bother trying a rescue.

You need to provide a set of requirements. Then see what technology will meet them.

I strongly suggest that you start with requirements that include MOB at night in bad weather, nightime dismasting, as well as dismasting 1000 miles from land.

Francis, running this race, and probably all ocean races, without fossil fuel use is clearly a realistic (and for me desirable) prospect for the future but it will require positive attitudes from sailors (like Conrad Coleman for example).

I find it a bit depressing that so many so-called sailors have quite such negative attitudes and seem happy to be entirely reliant forever on gasoil to go sailing. Lots of things about the way we sail today will have to change but progress will never be made if people like yourself keep over-emphasising and distorting the problems.

For example in your post above, you choose not to give a realistic maximum motoring time which someone who is trying to be economical with his reserve will achieve. You give only the worst case, and still you avoid mention of the postitve aspect of being able to generate power whilst sailing under a jury rig, and still you, who obviously have the technical savvy to understand, choose not even to discuss what a tiny percentage of the boat's generating capability will actually be needed to sustain a crew in an emergency.

Despite acknowledging the technical possibilities, the overall impression conveyed by your posts is clearly entirely discouraging and you seem not at all keen that obstacles should be overcome. Rather you would sit back and accept the status quo. A bit sad really.

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4 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Tell you what, ask Ken Read. See if he would agree with you.

I have never met Ken Read. I looked him up on the web, Wikipedia and links about him from there. Not much of what I read suggests he would be the best qualified man to give an opinion on this subject. He certainly has sailing and racing experience but does he have the necessary know how on electrical and mechanical sciences as well as naval architecture? From what I read about him it seems most of his university time was spent sailboat racing after which he worked for a sailmaker (essentially selling sails) and his academic interests were in history and law.
One quote from him on the web during his Volvo racing days I think, "I was a history major in school, and I was taking a bunch of pre-law classes. That kind of flew by the boards. The marine world called. I work for Northern Sails, and am actually on a sabbatical to do this race. If not for sailing, I'd probably be a lawyer."

It would be interesting though, to know what his views are, given his high profile in sailing.

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You might explain how economical nurturing of reserves saves a sailor lost overboard at night in bad weather.

You simply don't get it. Everything I wrote is about having the reserve on board to address life threatening disasters. When planning for disaster you must assume a realistic worst case. That is the point. They are disasters.  I don't assume a dismasting occurs in daylight in champagne sailing conditions where the crew can whip up the kite and rip along at 10 knots in the sunshine.  I assume they are dismasted at night under conditions where it is impossible to get a jury rig up until daylight and the weather abates. Or they are more than 1000 miles from land. And the winds drops. Similarly I assume that a MOB happens at night in terrible weather, and the crew can only possibly reach the lost member if they drop the sails, and motor at full power, and probably need most of that power to battle headwinds and sea-state. Hans Horovets was recovered, sadly too late, in just this manner. Your boat would run out of energy 10 minutes into the rescue and the crew member would be lost.  That is simply unacceptable. It might be acceptable to you, but I would guarantee you would be at front row of the shrill voices accusing the VOR of incompetence if a crew member was lost .

I have no idea what nature of power and mechanical engineering you are involved with, but safety critical systems seems a long way from your experience.

I have never met Ken Read. ....  It would be interesting though, to know what his views are, given his high profile in sailing.

You do know who says, "these are our new best friends" in this video is don't you? This is the point. He probably has a very clear perspective.

Our new best friends

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Well Francis, we can agree on energy requirements for racing a boat but obviously not about what risks are acceptable. If you want to avoid all risk of drowning then people with your attitude can always opt not to go to sea. The Mini-transat and the VG must fill you with horror!

Oh and I just watched your video. Do you really suggest that diesel was essential for propelling the boat, and that they couldn't have made a decent jury rig with that boom?

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Different race. Same mix of super-informed and super-uninformed opinion, ceaselessly whirling. Cool.

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4 hours ago, resist said:

Fastnet entry list has 8 entries in the VO65 class. Only 7 boats named.

The entry fee for a boat is an inexpensive way for VOR to ensure that there is a place for the eighth boat!

Meanwhile, Francis Vaughan and Staysail, you both make good points so why don't you pool your knowledge to come up with a solution to the problems that you both see and then approach ISAF or whoever with a recommendation for changes that would both be environmentally and safety wise superior to the current rules/systems. That would require a lot of commitment I know, but if you are both as passionate about it as you appear to be, then wouldn't it be worth the effort, or are you just talk and no action?

I don't recall which single-handed RWT it was now but at least 15 years ago, there was a fascinating video (Jack may have it) shot by one of the sailors with a pushpit mounted camera recording him building a jury rig in heavy swells, that got him to safety

Meanwhile, please can we get back to the forthcoming VOR.

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8 hours ago, staysail said:

Well Francis, we can agree on energy requirements for racing a boat but obviously not about what risks are acceptable. If you want to avoid all risk of drowning then people with your attitude can always opt not to go to sea. The Mini-transat and the VG must fill you with horror!

Oh and I just watched your video. Do you really suggest that diesel was essential for propelling the boat, and that they couldn't have made a decent jury rig with that boom?

My quote is simply to explain to Francis and Staysail why I mentioned the video of the single-handed sailor jury rigging his boat in my immediate past post. Can't recall now whether it was a boom or the stub of a mast, but it worked. And also to reinforce my opinion that you two should get together on this, but NOT ON THIS FORUM!

Okay, I think it was probably John Hughes (a Canadian no less) 30 years ago in the BOC, but it was two spinnaker poles in an A-frame. I have the video somewhere but its on tape and nothing to play it with anymore. VOR65 don't have spinnaker poles, but they have multiple outrigger struts and other bits. I still do not know how to post a reference on this forum, but check out John Hughes BOC for a report in the Los Angeles Times in 1987!

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6 hours ago, jbc said:

Different race. Same mix of super-informed and super-uninformed opinion, ceaselessly whirling. Cool.

...And all in one thread, double cool! :lol:

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On 12/07/2017 at 5:23 AM, Francis Vaughan said:

Gosh its gone quiet here. Not exactly long to go.

It occurs to me that Mr Witt is probably exactly correct when he talks about a "social experiment." After all, it isn't every day that you place seven knuckle dragging misogynist Neanderthals* in a boat with a couple of talented professional women sailors. Sort of sad that they are essentially the team from Oz.  I wonder what it will be like being the media crew on their boat.

We really need a story about the 8'th boat, if there is to be one, pretty soon.  If Peter Burling wants a go, this is possibly his best chance for a while, as he may be rather occupied to consider it in two years time. Then again, it isn't as if he is exactly short on remaining career time.

*OK, that is probably unfair to the other six members of the team, at least until proven otherwise.

Don't think it's really fair to drag every other crew member involved in the race into that category. 

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Ignoring Mr Witt's F-wittery on the gender front, from the outside, I think it will be an interesting comparison during the race between a bunch of pro- but really journeymen  who have sailed together as a close-knit bunch versus the rest of the fleet who have a real range of experience with their crewmates - from lots to none.

The other crews are turning out to be an interesting mix of old salts who've been around a few times, amazing solo sailors  through to very skilled sailors with little or no offshore experience.

 

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10 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

My quote is simply to explain to Francis and Staysail why I mentioned the video of the single-handed sailor jury rigging his boat in my immediate past post. Can't recall now whether it was a boom or the stub of a mast, but it worked. And also to reinforce my opinion that you two should get together on this, but NOT ON THIS FORUM!

Okay, I think it was probably John Hughes (a Canadian no less) 30 years ago in the BOC, but it was two spinnaker poles in an A-frame. I have the video somewhere but its on tape and nothing to play it with anymore. VOR65 don't have spinnaker poles, but they have multiple outrigger struts and other bits. I still do not know how to post a reference on this forum, but check out John Hughes BOC for a report in the Los Angeles Times in 1987!

You are doing exactly the same thing we are RS, and there is a real dearth of news about this years race and its boats and crews. You can always ignore my posts.

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Nobody knows. The only hint I've seen so far may or may not be #thefutureishere from when the boat went into branding back in may.

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4 minutes ago, Chasm said:

Nobody knows. The only hint I've seen so far may or may not be #thefutureishere from when the boat went into branding back in may.

The Fastnet starts August 3rd, correct? We should have an Announcement in the next 2 weeks then, no?

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11 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

The Fastnet starts August 3rd, correct? We should have an Announcement in the next 2 weeks then, no?

Last time I looked, the Fastnet starts on August 6, but as I have said before, it's not typical for boats to turn up the night before.

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12 hours ago, staysail said:

 You can always ignore my posts.

I cant imagine why I would want to do that, because I am interested in what you and some other thoughtful people have to say. I may not always agree, but that's the point of discussion.

However, for all of those out there interested in survival at sea and particularly those extolling recent single-handed experiences, I give you John Hughes:

Around-the-World Single-Handed Race : Canadian Sails Dismasted Sloop Around the Horn to the Falklands

March 30, 1987|DAN BYRNE | Special to The Times and Dan Byrne, a former news editor for the Los Angeles Times, was among the finishers in the first solo race around the world in 1983

NEWPORT, R.I. — Canadian John Hughes, 26, steered his crippled sailboat into port in the Falkland Islands after sailing for 45 days and 4,400 nautical miles without a mast.

Hughes' 41-foot sloop, Joseph Young, was dismasted Feb. 6, about 1,500 miles east of New Zealand on the third leg of the BOC Challenge single-handed sailing race around the world.

Hughes, 26, of Halifax, Nova Scotia, had exceptional luck on his 400-mile run from Cape Horn to the Falklands. The 35-knot tailwind was perfect for his jury-rigged boat, which had only a small jib sail flying.

With the wind dying shortly before noon Monday, Hughes sailed into East Cove, where a British naval base is located. He took a tow only after he was well within two miles of his goal to avoid breaking a race rule.

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He was escorted in by a British patrol vessel. At the dock, he was greeted by naval personnel, headed by Rear Adm. Chris Leyland, the commander of naval forces in the Falklands.

Hughes told of his dismasting by telephone to race headquarters here:

"I was asleep in the quarter berth when the mast broke off at the deck. The bottom of the mast had jumped a foot to port and crashed through the deck. It was rocking around from side to side."

Hughes cut away the mast before it could go through the hull. As it went overboard, though, it ripped away the safety lines on the starboard side of the boat as well as the bow pulpit.

With the mast and the boom gone, as well as the mainsail and a jib, Hughes said he "erected a spinnaker pole in the cockpit to set a steadying sail to ease the boat's rolling, and to replace my radio antenna, which had gone overboard with the mast. I was able to contact Hal Roth and Mark Schrader (fellow racers) and pass the word along."

He then built a jury rig with two spinnaker poles lashed together in an A-frame. The poles' bottoms rested in coffee cans filled with rags, so they would not damage the deck further.

With a wire to the bow and the stern of the boat from the top of the rig, Hughes still was able to hoist only his smallest jib.

Initially, Hughes headed for Chile, 3,500 miles away and 1,200 miles north of Cape Horn. But he concluded that he could not reach Chile.

"After I headed north, a big high pressure came over me and I ran out of wind," he said. "Then I started running low on food and water, so I had to change my strategy.

"I had very little sail and my jury rig was very strong, so I changed course and headed for Cape Horn and the Falklands. There is more wind toward the Horn."

As he drove farther south, Hughes maintained contact with land through a network of amateur radio operators in New Zealand, Chile and the United States, coordinated by Fred Chew of Fall River, Mass

Bob Rice of Weather Services, Inc., in New Bedford, Mass,, volunteered his time to provide Hughes with up-to-the minute weather forecasts covering the Cape Horn area.

Hughes almost ran out of water, but 400 miles before the Horn he managed to catch some hail and melt it.

"I ran out of water one day before reaching port," he said. "I've been drinking a lot since I got here--lots of water, and getting lots of sleep."

Hughes said the Cape Horn passage was frightening.

"For a while, I didn't think I would make it. The winds were blowing more than 50 knots, and the shallow water made each wave break.

"Twice, I was knocked down--giving me a good scare. Everything was a mess inside--broken glass bottles, chutney everywhere and lots of salt water in the boat. The waves were 40-footers, not so big, but every wave was breaking. They were very steep. I was really relieved to get into deeper water."

Back home, the drama of Hughes' mastless odyssey caught the attention of fellow Canadians, inspiring them to contribute money to his cause.

A new mast was bought with donations. It was supposed to have arrived by March 22, but engine problems forced a Canadian Air Force transport to miss a connection with the RAF plane that was to fly the spar to the Falklands.

The rig's late arrival will almost certainly prevent Hughes from making it to Rio de Janeiro by April 11, in time to start the last leg of the race home to Newport, R.I.

Hughes intends to provision his boat for the entire journey to Newport, so that he only has to cross the finish line in Rio before resuming the race.

The racers will begin to arrive home in early May.

The 27,500-nautical mile race started August 30, 1986, with 25 competitors. Sixteen, including Hughes, remain. One boat has sunk; two besides Hughes' have been dismasted.

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My previous post is because I found the intense criticism of whether VOR represents "sailing at the extreme", rather fatuous, because I believe that everyone who sails has had an experience that to them qualifies as "sailing at the extreme". None of us may be Shackleton or Hughes, but anyone on this forum who says that they haven't had such an experience is either lying or not a sailor. 

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How to watch the in-port racing in Alicante on the water?

Hi

I am looking to organise a trip to Alicante for the start of the VOR as a present for a very good friend of mine who is turning 75. We went to the Vendee Globe start together in 2012 for his 70th, so this seems to fit! I'd like to go out and see the in-port race,  as that is probably the best "bang-for-buck", on the water. Unfortunately, the official VOR on the water experience with a modicum of comfort (he is 75 after all), is the VIP  Spectator Boat for €595, which, compared to the €200 we spent in the VG, is very steep, and shelling out €1200 plus flights and accommodation is a bit much, even for a 75th birthday present. 

Does anyone know of any other outfits running these kind of tours? Or even a company or private individual with a suitable motorboat that we could charter (with skipper)? For the right price, our wives & my kid could come along too, which would really be the icing on the cake! I've had a good dig around without much luck so far. 

Any hints and tips would be greatly appreciated!

Regards

Tom

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13 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

My previous post is because I found the intense criticism of whether VOR represents "sailing at the extreme", rather fatuous, because I believe that everyone who sails has had an experience that to them qualifies as "sailing at the extreme". None of us may be Shackleton or Hughes, but anyone on this forum who says that they haven't had such an experience is either lying or not a sailor. 

+1000

Well said!

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13 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

My previous post is because I found the intense criticism of whether VOR represents "sailing at the extreme", rather fatuous, because I believe that everyone who sails has had an experience that to them qualifies as "sailing at the extreme". None of us may be Shackleton or Hughes, but anyone on this forum who says that they haven't had such an experience is either lying or not a sailor. 

What you are describing, namely a seriously scary trip or two, which almost all sailors may well have experienced, is according to your own example, an average experience for sailors, or at most an experience at one end of the normal distribution of experiences of most sailors, ranging from tame, idyllic, to pretty scary.
That does not, almost by definition, compare with what happens in "Extreme sailboat racing".
If an event is going to claim that it is on a pinnacle of professional ocean racing sport and bills itself with a slogan of "Life at the Extreme", then that is what some of us think it should be. Different people have different views about what is extreme but few will dispute that the VO70's were very powerful and capable of sailing very fast, indeed capable of being sailed close to or beyond their breaking point, and that did lead to extreme sailing experiences for their crews.
Relatively speaking, sailing in a de-powered and heavily constructed 65 foot boat, with righting moment reduced intentionally by design so it will tip over before the crew can break it, is not by comparison, extreme.
That is why I waould say that the VOR used to be Life at the Extreme, but does not any longer justify its slogan.
What is "extreme sailing" by today's standards? I guess Thomas Coville's recent exploits would qualify. Certainly makes it for me!

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with ETNZ out of contention for the 8th boat, the only other possible team ready to go and with sponsors willing to activate around the world, would be BAR... but my gut feeling looking at timing (Fastnet is in 2 weeks (!)) is that the 8th boat is going to stay on shore... 

On another topic, I was wondering if the best sailors do actually end up doing the VOR. Looking at the profile of the skippers, you could argue both ways. 

 

Xabi Fernandez: 1 gold, 1 silver at Olympics, lots of World Championships (49er), several VOR, AC

Charles Caudrelier: Winner VOR (groupama), winner Figaro, Transat

Bouwe Bekking: 8 VOR (never won), lots of maxi championships

Charlie Enright: ??  (1 VOR), 1 Moonlight (regatta movie from Disney)

Witt: ?? 

Dee Caffari: First woman circumnavigating the globe in both directions non-stop, 1 VG

Simeon Tienpont: 2 VOR, 1 AC (winner as grinder)

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1 hour ago, JeronimoII said:

with ETNZ out of contention for the 8th boat, the only other possible team ready to go and with sponsors willing to activate around the world, would be BAR... but my gut feeling looking at timing (Fastnet is in 2 weeks (!)) is that the 8th boat is going to stay on shore... 

On another topic, I was wondering if the best sailors do actually end up doing the VOR. Looking at the profile of the skippers, you could argue both ways. 

 

Xabi Fernandez: 1 gold, 1 silver at Olympics, lots of World Championships (49er), several VOR, AC

Charles Caudrelier: Winner VOR (groupama), winner Figaro, Transat

Bouwe Bekking: 8 VOR (never won), lots of maxi championships

Charlie Enright: ??  (1 VOR), 1 Moonlight (regatta movie from Disney)

Witt: ?? 

Dee Caffari: First woman circumnavigating the globe in both directions non-stop, 1 VG

Simeon Tienpont: 2 VOR, 1 AC (winner as grinder)

I had qualified for something called the American Eventing Championships in horse riding.  Qualifications were not easy and it meant to be a competition of the best in the sport at your level.  SOmeone commented to me when I said it was the "best" that that was not true.  There were really good teams that maybe qualified, but choose not to go.

My response back was, then how would they know they are the best?

Someone can say I've done it all, but if you are not willing to but it on the line, then it is still just talk.  Right now, each one of those skippers stepped up to the plate and are willing to answer the question, are you one of the best?  Just the fact that they decided to accept that challenge means they are one step ahead of any other.

That's how I see it.  People could argue that Glenn Ashby is the best skipper, but since he didn't (or doesn't) want to take on the challenge, it is fair game to question that statement.  Best is relative...winner is not.

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I think VOR has a bit of the problem, that there are not enough talented young skippers with a ton of offshore experience outside of France and the french seems to prefer short handed sailing.

Also I suppose that there are probably some older guys, who would qualify, but prefer to sail minimaxis, tp52s and occasionally some 600nm races. Anyways the current VOR  skippers with crews included, are in my opinion still top notch. 

One other thing is that with the star class gone from the Olympics, for many sailors, there isn't the same logical step to keel boat sailing.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, jonas a said:

I think VOR has a bit of the problem, that there are not enough talented young skippers with a ton of offshore experience outside of France and the french seems to prefer short handed sailing.

Also I suppose that there are probably some older guys, who would qualify, but prefer to sail minimaxis, tp52s and occasionally some 600nm races. Anyways the current VOR  skippers with crews included, are in my opinion still top notch. 

One other thing is that with the star class gone from the Olympics, for many sailors, there isn't the same logical step to keel boat sailing.

 

 

 

They obviously did some analytical work and screwed up. Paid for and built a new eighth boat - only to find no interested sponsors at the right price. 

Problem for young skippers is networking and finding money. With the small size of the crew now there's really no room for much talent development opportunities for navigators and skippers, only two job that allow old guys. 

Hopefully they learn from this cycle, get rid of the silly inport cat class. If I were VOR CEO I'll put together a team on boat 8 called Team Future - with young folks with 6.5 exp out of my own pocket. Market the shit out of it. 

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7 minutes ago, Miffy said:

 

They obviously did some analytical work and screwed up. Paid for and built a new eighth boat - only to find no interested sponsors at the right price. 

Problem for young skippers is networking and finding money. With the small size of the crew now there's really no room for much talent development opportunities for navigators and skippers, only two job that allow old guys. 

Hopefully they learn from this cycle, get rid of the silly inport cat class. If I were VOR CEO I'll put together a team on boat 8 called Team Future - with young folks with 6.5 exp out of my own pocket. Market the shit out of it. 

I like that approach.

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Just include someone who can read charts into this last minute team................. :ph34r:

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23 minutes ago, Chasm said:

Just include someone who can read charts into this last minute team................. :ph34r:

All crew have to have the British RYA Yachtmaster Coastal qualification for this edition and the skipper and navigator have to have Yachtmaster, Ocean or Offshore (can't rmember which), so someone on board should know about charts. It should be fun for those who don't already have these qualifications to pass the exams in the few remaining weeks, especially for the non english speaking ones and those who have only sailed dinghys and olympics. Could limit last minute crew selection options.

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1 hour ago, Chasm said:

Just include someone who can read charts into this last minute team................. :ph34r:

 

TBF both the navigator and skipper missed it because they were not familiar with the software/chart zoom. While they were clearly in error and responsible, software surprisingly didn't have grounding alarms, the race organization didn't help with last minute route changes. 

The navigators IMO are overworked with trying to squeeze out that last bit of speed. I think a bunch of teams accidently entered TSS, exclusion zones. Just signs they're overly strained and focused on weather and less on charts. 

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Miff apart from your comment about Wouter not being familiar with zoom function of electronic charting, which is nonsense (he didn't zoom because he thought they were in deep water), your on the money about nav workload. These guys earn every dollar.

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25 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Miff apart from your comment about Wouter not being familiar with zoom function of electronic charting, which is nonsense (he didn't zoom because he thought they were in deep water), your on the money about nav workload. These guys earn every dollar.

I should have been more clear. I don't mean they didn't know how to zoom, but there's a fundamental misunderstanding re whether grounding depths will be apparent at the zoom level they were at. 

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It will be interesting to see what turns up at the startline for the Fastnet. I would not be surprised to see a few VOR management on board if they really can't get the 8'th team together. Although that would be something of an admission of failure. I like Miffy's approach. OTOH, how about a crusty old curmudgeon team? I'm free.  :ph34r:

If they did decide that the 8'th team really wasn't going to happen they could run a boat with openings for younger sailors to take only a few legs, and build a lot of people with significant experience. A couple of VOR legs is going to be worth many years of crewing in just about any other format. In particular, the VOR could start selecting these crew from countries where they want to push up interest, seeding them with talent and experience. But, unless they have already been working on this, it is likely getting too late. Less then 100 days to go. Very very tight.

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5 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

It will be interesting to see what turns up at the startline for the Fastnet. I would not be surprised to see a few VOR management on board if they really can't get the 8'th team together. Although that would be something of an admission of failure. I like Miffy's approach. OTOH, how about a crusty old curmudgeon team? I'm free.  :ph34r:

If they did decide that the 8'th team really wasn't going to happen they could run a boat with openings for younger sailors to take only a few legs, and build a lot of people with significant experience. A couple of VOR legs is going to be worth many years of crewing in just about any other format. In particular, the VOR could start selecting these crew from countries where they want to push up interest, seeding them with talent and experience. But, unless they have already been working on this, it is likely getting too late. Less then 100 days to go. Very very tight.

Yes , that would be cool. Make a grand master team 70+   

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15 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

OTOH, how about a crusty old curmudgeon team? I'm free.  :ph34r:

I would totally watch a team comprised of the most vocal members of this forum. I wouldn't necessarily want to be on the boat, but the onboard video would be fun. The arguments would spill from one watch into the next...

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Despite my 'who cares which team got which boat' comment a couple of weeks ago, I am beginning to wonder again about the 'mystery' delivery from Lisbon to Alicante by Liz Wardley. Who was that delivery for, or did VOR already know there would not be an eighth sponsor, so simply parked it in Alicante?  The latter doesn't seem logical, so was that Dee's boat? So where is the missing eighth boat, Lisbon, Alicante, or en route to the Solent for the Fastnet start??? Is VOR just keeping the biggest news to the last minute for maximum effect, marching bands, ticker tape etc. etc.? I wouldn't put anything past VOR right now. So what if the Magenta Project was supplemented by some 'experienced' people still missing from the currently announced action? I'd like to think that Witt's comments put somebody's back up, and he/she/they decided to do something about it!!

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The mystery delivery, as you call it, was Liz delivering the boat to Alicante for some sponsor/partner sailing during the partner forum. Also tied in with Dee's announcement, and with the boat that is Turning the Tide (ex Vestas).

VOR and Magenta combined resources to give delivery crew, and give experience where it is difficult to get. Some of the girls from the trip there or back have since down trials with teams.

They weren't hiding anything, just not necessarily shouting about anything. 

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48 minutes ago, Potter said:

The mystery delivery, as you call it, was Liz delivering the boat to Alicante for some sponsor/partner sailing during the partner forum. Also tied in with Dee's announcement, and with the boat that is Turning the Tide (ex Vestas).

VOR and Magenta combined resources to give delivery crew, and give experience where it is difficult to get. Some of the girls from the trip there or back have since down trials with teams.

They weren't hiding anything, just not necessarily shouting about anything. 

Okay, but you didn't win the shell game yet. It was the old Vestas that made the 'delivery trip', as I previously supposed, but now you say "some of the girls from the trip there or back". So is the seventh boat the rebuilt Vestas now back in Lisbon and, if so, how branded?? If it's Dee's boat then it's "Clean Water". Or are you just a teaser?? So which is the 'unclaimed' eighth boat and where is it?

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RS, Potter is not a teaser and if you actually read what others have written above rather than what you think or hope in your conspiratorial world you just would not write some of your silly comments.

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1 hour ago, DtM said:

RS, Potter is not a teaser and if you actually read what others have written above rather than what you think or hope in your conspiratorial world you just would not write some of your silly comments.

As far as I am concerned anyone who doesn't answer a straight question with a simple answer is a teaser. Straight question, where is the missing eighth boat, in Lisbon, Alicante or en route to the Solent? Presumably Lisbon, unless VOR has managed to put together a deal, but all I got in response from Potter was pontificalia concerning the old Vestas. I tend to expect more from the people on this forum who claim to be knowledgeable, but  I am often disappointed.

As to whether my comments are silly or not, I think that you should look up 'pontificalia'.

Hopefully, within the next three weeks, we will all know one way or the other about an eighth boat, and then we can settle down to enjoying the Fastnet, supporting our favorite and go on from there.

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Maybe I'm missing something. Boat 8, the new boat isn't missing. It's the AkzoNobel boat. 

If you're looking for intel on the 8th team, no one in the know can comment. 

In the meantime, just pay attention to Fastnet entry list. I check it a couple times a week to see updates. Since it is a qualifier folks won't be able to hide. 

Notice the class number says 8, even though there are only 7current . 

IMG_5206.PNG

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It's in Lisbon. Was at boatyard 2 weeks ago all boats other than Mapfre, DF and Vestas were there. Two boats on the hard in still in virgin white without any sign writing at the time, of which one is now Brunel yellow.  

 

boatyard1.jpg

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3 hours ago, Miffy said:

If you're looking for intel on the 8th team, no one in the know can comment. 

Hi Miffy, that's exactly the intel that I and numerous other people are looking for. My apologies for confusing the issue by referring to the eighth boat.

2 hours ago, euro said:

It's in Lisbon. Was at boatyard 2 weeks ago all boats other than Mapfre, DF and Vestas were there. Two boats on the hard in still in virgin white without any sign writing at the time, of which one is now Brunel yellow.  

Thanks euro, at least someone on this forum is on the ball, even if one of the boats may still be white. Three weeks to go, hopefully we shall soon see whether it stays white, or gets branding!

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14 hours ago, Potter said:

[CUT] Also tied in with Dee's announcement, and with the boat that is Turning the Tide (ex Vestas).

[CUT}

So... if TTT is ex Vestas, what is missing now is which is Scallywag boat... #2 or #5?

    #1 Dongfeng            
    #2 Scallywag or team mistery? (ex SCA)
    #3 Brunel           
    #4 Vestas 11th hour (ex Alvimedica)
    #5 Scallywag or team mistery?(ex ADOR)
    #6 Turn the tide (ex Vestas)
    #7 Mapfre            
    #8 Team AkzoNobel

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3 hours ago, ITA602 said:

So... if TTT is ex Vestas, what is missing now is which is Scallywag boat... #2 or #5?

    #1 Dongfeng            
    #2 Scallywag or team mistery? (ex SCA)
    #3 Brunel           
    #4 Vestas 11th hour (ex Alvimedica)
    #5 Scallywag or team mistery?(ex ADOR)
    #6 Turn the tide (ex Vestas)
    #7 Mapfre            
    #8 Team AkzoNobel

Pretty sure Scallywag got ADOR

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DONGFENG VO65NO1 - MMSI 319060300 is in Lorient

SCA - MMSI 235101548 is unused, last seen October 2015 in Alicante

BRUNEL - MMSI 244780246 is in Lisbon

ex Alvimedia is in Gosport, S/V VESTAS 11TH HOUR - MMSI 367616310

ex ADOR is in Lisbon, AZZAM UAE2 - MMSI 470437000

VESTASWIND - MMSI 319071200 is unused, last seen November 2014 in Cape Town
VESTAS WIND - MMSI 319081500 is in Lisbon

TC6 - MAPFRE - MMSI 224530860 is in Sanxenxo

TEAM AKZONOBEL - MMSI 319119500 is in Cascias

 

 

Looks to me like ex-SCA is the mystery team. No other boats with active AIS sitting in the Lisbon same harbor corner either - at least not when I look.

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So, summing up and assuming everyone above knows what they're talking about, it sounds like:

Hull # 2014/15      2017/18

1      Dongfeng     Dongfeng

2      SCA          ???

3      Brunel       Brunel

4      Alvimedica   Vestas/11th Hour

5      ADOR         Scallywag

6      Vestas       Turn the Tide

7      Mapfre       Mapfre

8      (N/A)        AkzoNobel

Is that right? I know it's probably silly to read too much into ex-SCA being the boat that's still unaccounted for. And maybe it's too late in the game for anything to be realistically hoped for. But the remarks about "no one in the know can comment" and the 8 slots for the class at the Fastnet make me hope some big, fun surprise is coming. I hope there are 8 boats, if only to help validate the idea of the one-design approach (which I really like, notwithstanding all the arguments against it some people make around here) and help build momentum for the event going forward.

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1 hour ago, Chasm said:

DONGFENG VO65NO1 - MMSI 319060300 is in Lorient

SCA - MMSI 235101548 is unused, last seen October 2015 in Alicante

BRUNEL - MMSI 244780246 is in Lisbon

ex Alvimedia is in Gosport, S/V VESTAS 11TH HOUR - MMSI 367616310

ex ADOR is in Lisbon, AZZAM UAE2 - MMSI 470437000

VESTASWIND - MMSI 319071200 is unused, last seen November 2014 in Cape Town
VESTAS WIND - MMSI 319081500 is in Lisbon

TC6 - MAPFRE - MMSI 224530860 is in Sanxenxo

TEAM AKZONOBEL - MMSI 319119500 is in Cascias

 

 

Looks to me like ex-SCA is the mystery team. No other boats with active AIS sitting in the Lisbon same harbor corner either - at least not when I look.

I currently have Vestas 11th hour (Formaly Alvemedica) in Portsmouth

Position Received:1 hour, 16 minutes ago (2017-07-19 16:25 (UTC))
 

DongFeng near Lorient

Position Received:1 hour, 49 minutes ago (2017-07-19 15:55 (UTC))

Brunel is near Lisbon

Position Received:4 minutes ago (2017-07-19 17:41 (UTC))

Mapfre

Somewhere in Spain

Position Received:3 hours, 57 minutes ago (2017-07-19 13:49 (UTC))

ADU
Not found in my fleet from marinetraffic.

Team AKzoNobel  near Lisbon

Position Received:1 hour, 48 minutes ago (2017-07-19 16:00 (UTC))

Vesta Wind  Near Lisbon

Position Received:1 hour, 33 minutes ago (2017-07-19 16:17 (UTC))

I cannot find SCA, which might mean it's on the dry and getting a new AIS id and branding

 

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At the moment it seems T*3 (Turn the Tide) is the original Vestas but the AIS name has not been changed.  So the missing boat, if AZZAM is Scallywag is the boat formally name SCA.  One of those white hulls became BRUNEL (rebranded? ) so this will get interesting, because what or who is that other white hull?

 

Capture.JPG

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The last while hull should be exSCA since swapping MSSI between hulls is unlikely.

We'll find out sooner or later if they rename SCA - MMSI 235101548 or use a new number. Anyone in Lisbon to give us another update on the white whale?

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2 hours ago, Chasm said:

Anyone in Lisbon to give us another update on the white whale?

I hope that this is not perceived as a 'silly' observation, but euro's photo shows four boats, all with masts and keels installed and on frames, and two boats all white, one now Brunel yellow. Based on personal experience, its a damn expensive and time consuming job to 'brand' i.e. paint the whole of the frigging boat, topsides, hull sides and bottom in that situation , and particularly to the quality obtained by shop painting without mast or keel. Presumably, Brunel will make it, but what about the boat for the eighth team (as corrected by Miffy)?

Meanwhile thanks to Bucc5062, jbc, Chasm, ITA602 and EFoiled for the info on boat positions.

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