Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, southerncross said:

I wonder how a new V70 would hold up built to today's standards, build process and materials?

If you grabbed Maserati (Ericson 3), Black Jack (Telefonica) and Giacomo (Groupama 4) as is (putting aside say powered aspect and regatta sails) and put them in the start line they would leave the 65's for dead after day 1 and last a lot longer than you think. Some are/were until recently still carrying original rigs.

Built today with an appropriate budget and with benefit of a decade longer knowledge base, the V70 would be a very hot and tough machine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

If you grabbed Maserati (Ericson 3), Black Jack (Telefonica) and Giacomo (Groupama 4) as is (putting aside say powered aspect and regatta sails) and put them in the start line they would leave the 65's for dead after day 1 and last a lot longer than you think. Some are/were until recently still carrying original rigs.

Built today with an appropriate budget and with benefit of a decade longer knowledge base, the V70 would be a very hot and tough machine. 

5e8.jpg

cause your always so good with images.

Next up, Jack states that experimental airplanes are faster than commercial planes, they just don't last so long.  Sure is an obvious comparison to make.

Of course those damn ladies might not feel the same way...

http://www.sailingworld.com/racing/volvo-ocean-65-boat-1

Then there is this statement

 

Quote

'The Volvo 65 are never going to be faster than the Volvo 70, but there are some conditions in which they will be close to the VO70 performance. 

http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Volvo-Ocean-Race--Rob-Salthouse-compares-VO70-with-new-one-design-VO65/132240?source=google


but maybe even more important..they actually can finish a race (gasp!)

Please Jack, don't turn into this guy.  We all love ya here and clinging to the past...well, it ain't healthy

9rYVxqH.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

If you grabbed Maserati (Ericson 3), Black Jack (Telefonica) and Giacomo (Groupama 4) as is (putting aside say powered aspect and regatta sails) and put them in the start line they would leave the 65's for dead after day 1 and last a lot longer than you think. Some are/were until recently still carrying original rigs.

Built today with an appropriate budget and with benefit of a decade longer knowledge base, the V70 would be a very hot and tough machine. 

+1 and the subject will never be a dead horse bucc!

The only way an old 70 could be made slow enough to sail as a training boat with a new 65 was by severely restricting its keel movement! Wonder why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

If you grabbed Maserati (Ericson 3), Black Jack (Telefonica) and Giacomo (Groupama 4) as is (putting aside say powered aspect and regatta sails) and put them in the start line they would leave the 65's for dead after day 1 and last a lot longer than you think. Some are/were until recently still carrying original rigs.

Built today with an appropriate budget and with benefit of a decade longer knowledge base, the V70 would be a very hot and tough machine. 

Don't have to convince me Jack.  Would never happen but a new hull build would probably be lighter, stronger/stiffer.  Modern rig and sail set > Beast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, staysail said:

+1 and the subject will never be a dead horse bucc!

The only way an old 70 could be made slow enough to sail as a training boat with a new 65 was by severely restricting its keel movement! Wonder why?

No.  I don't give a shit.  Let's compare the J class to something and make it relevant.

I take you as a rational member of this crowd so why would this not be done.  Are we bringing back the VO70s?  Are we setting up a race of VO70 against the 65s?

It really is a done deal and least we forget, come the next one, the 65's will be pushed aside for some foiling fantasy so how's about we just stop these comparisons that mean nothing and focus on what we have today.  Today we have VO65 OD and the better discussion could be, can a bunch of stags (7 in total) beat a mixed bag of truly talented sailors?  Can Dee whip her crew into shape and put a hurt on some boats.  Does Mapfre have the real chops to dominate or will Brunel or Dongfeng try to power past.

The whole "oh my the VO70's were better waaaa" is, at this point moot.  Yes, Jack keeps beating away and from this 'I never leave my lake' spectator...it's getting old.  Don't like the boat...don't watch.  Don't comment, because either you respect the boat and the crews that sail it, or fuck off and start your own series.  As for me, it's got a fucking sail so I like it very much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I don't get is this is a race between OD boats, as long as the boats aren't becoming your standard 36 ft cruiser, and are capable of bringing their crew home safely - who cares if they're faster or slower than the former boats? It isn't a record chasing event. 

 

Similarly, it is why I've very skeptical about the in port catamarans - because it seems like an awful waste of money and a general distraction to the crew. The in port events with the 65s are stunning - it is very interesting to see how the crews take different approaches to win. 

 

If the cost saving between VOR60 and VOR65 can be either shifted to making entry lower and increase the number of teams, that'll be far more helpful than adding an in port class. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Miffy said:

What I don't get is this is a race between OD boats, as long as the boats aren't becoming your standard 36 ft cruiser, and are capable of bringing their crew home safely - who cares if they're faster or slower than the former boats? It isn't a record chasing event. 

 

Similarly, it is why I've very skeptical about the in port catamarans - because it seems like an awful waste of money and a general distraction to the crew. The in port events with the 65s are stunning - it is very interesting to see how the crews take different approaches to win. 

 

If the cost saving between VOR60 and VOR65 can be either shifted to making entry lower and increase the number of teams, that'll be far more helpful than adding an in port class. 

Quote

On June 28, 2012 Knut Frostad revealed the design at a press conference in Lorient during a stopover in the 2011–12 Volvo Ocean Race. In becoming a one-design event, the new boats are hoped to "significantly reduce the cost of mounting a campaign and bring the size of the fleet to 8-10 boats for future editions."[1] Frostad went on to state an entire campaign for future editions of the race would be around €15 million, and a "ready to sail" boat, including pre-race and race sails would be around €4.5 million in comparison to the €30-40 million region a current campaign can fall into.[5]

At the end of the day, it is about a race and either folks like it or not.  Me, I've liked it, yet if they go foiling cats, I won't

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They haven't told much about the format of the new in port class. I suppose the boat will be used for other racing too. Seems unlikely that they would put that kind of effort for solely an in port VOR race.

As long as the focus remains on offshore and the cats are there mostly to engage the crowds during the stop-overs, I'm ok with it. I guess the thinking is that most VOR sailors in the future will have some cat foiling experience, so the transition to in port sailing won't be overwhelming. Keeping the VOR60's off the course also means more time for repairing, if needed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why don't we concentrate on this edition of the race in this thread and if you want to discuss the cats for the next race start a new thread for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Done.  Please go to the 2019-2020 thread for discussions of the 60 foiler and the in port cat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎02‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 9:37 PM, jack_sparrow said:

Out there on it's lonesome in conditions perfect for a record....and it is a dog ...S2H finished 10 hrs behind Loyal, and behind a 100',  a slow Botin 80 and 3 V70'S and lucky to just beat a RP66 that got bogged.

Don't you love the old expression "lies, damn lies & statistics. So which year did which VO65 finish 10 hours behind Loyal? Be a miracle if you can find the answer to that Jack as a VO65 has never done the S2H and certainly NOT the one I think you are referring to.

How can I be so sure? Well I was on the media boat about 100m from the Sydney Heads turning mark and also at the finish line in Hobart and there was absolutely NO Volvo Ocean 65s taking part.

Perhaps you are confused by the fact that Charles Caudrelier (Skipper of Dongfeng) was skipper of the Chinese entry UBox which sailed into 3rd Overall IRC & 1st Overall ORCi.

This was part of Dongfeng's overall declared strategy of assisting the development of Chinese Offshore Sailing.

She was indeed about 10 hours behind Loyal and beaten in by the VOR70s but UBox (we call her Mini-Box) was (and is) a Cookson 50 NOT a VO65. A slight difference wouldn't you think?

How can I be so certain? I was her project manager for the S2H.

Agreed they were spot on conditions up in England but a record is a record and they didn't have the luxury of waiting for a weather window.

Just sayin'

SS

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oops - sorry Jack - looks like you were talking about CQR (well she did have her anchor down - surely) CQS

And thanks for correcting my comment about "guys" Bucc. Its just that often guys refers to the crew whatever their gender just like gay used to mean happy :-)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎03‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 7:56 AM, Alinghi4ever said:

Dongfeng did poorly in the Southern Ocean Leg last time you snark.

Alinghi, if you remember your recent history (last VOR) DDFRT were backed off deliberately to preserve the boat for later in the leg if you remember the blogs/comments that were coming off the boat before the mast broke which just adds to the irony of the breakage. Dongfeng in fact were not weak, they were 'foot off the throttle' they were looking at the overall race and when they started that leg were actually lying in 1st.

Funny though at the time people criticised DFRT for 4 sail reaching - now it appears everyone is doing it, nothing is new for long at this level.

Different race this time round, lets hope that the press, boating and general, will finally drop the 'rookie' tag on the 3 Chinese sailors who have more ocean miles under their belt than many. Plus the addition of Jeremy and Jack add to their strengths.

All credit to Mapfre though round the island and I am sure Rob Greenhalgh's local knowledge will have helped there a bit too.

We might have an exciting race starting on Sunday AND another one in 80 days or so time. For me already more exciting than foiling cats.

And if anyone has any doubts of DFRT's ability to send it - see the attached.

SS

Dongfeng Sending It.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I note that Dee described her crew in her very happy video piece after the race as "guys". I just love how happy she was and how proud of her crew she was.

It is just an expression (except where David Witt is concerned).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, southerncross said:

I wonder how a new V70 would hold up built to today's standards, build process and materials?

 

Problem would be the same. There was no reason people could not build a boat that would stay in one piece back then. Yes boatbuilding technology has improved; however, the incentive would still be to sit right on the edge of "We are good" and "Oh shit". A very expensive edge, even if things hold together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To set off more aimless speculation, how do we rate the fleet?

I have four podium contenders (yes I know that does not fit):

Dongfeng - Team to beat

Mapfre - Very hard to call. They should do better than last time, but good enough for the win?

Vestas/Eleventh hour - Crew list looks good. Why can't I shake a slight feeling of mweh about them?

Brunel - A bit under cooked perhaps? But with all Bouwe's experience still a podium contender.(curious who be be nav)

Further:

AKZO-Nobel - Crew list looks less impressive now that some of the others have declared.

Turn the tide - Great project that will hopefully get some new faces involved. Sentimental favorite.

Scallywag - Feels a bit like the last stand of something old, we will see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, DtM said:

I note that Dee described her crew in her very happy video piece after the race as "guys". I just love how happy she was and how proud of her crew she was.

It is just an expression (except where David Witt is concerned).

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/video/9768_-We-had-a-lot-of-fun-.html

I note in the fun video, there is a hard edit at 1.12min mark. At that point I think the camera is panning back on board from looking over the stern where TTTOP have just passed Scally.. I wonder if the cut was there because some comments were made between the boats? For a prize off Teaky's desk, what do you reckon would have been said as TTTOP passsed Scally and who would have said it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a crew announcement for Scallywag

Luke Parkinson
Steve Hayles - Navigator
Mark Fullerton
John Fisher
Tiger Mok
David Mann
Alex Gough 
Ben Piggott - Bowman
David Witt - Skipper


7+0 crew so they have 2 spares in their lineup. Looks to me like 4 carried over from the 100footer?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just wanted to stir the pot here a little. 

Yes Leg Zero is underway, and its considered the qualifier, but rest assured that if someone can fund the 8th boat it won't be the qualifier that stands in between them and the race. They could even join the race after the official start. With 3 double point legs later in the race, missing leg 1 wouldn't be a problem in the overall standings. As someone familiar with last minute ocean racing campaigns, training time is more of an issue than when you actually join the race. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Chasm said:

There was a crew announcement for Scallywag

Luke Parkinson
Steve Hayles - Navigator
Mark Fullerton
John Fisher
Tiger Mok
David Mann
Alex Gough 
Ben Piggott - Bowman
David Witt - Skipper


7+0 crew so they have 2 spares in their lineup. Looks to me like 4 carried over from the 100footer?

That screams Peter Principle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. It bugs me that there is no crew list (or declaration from the teams themselves) for who is around during these official races. TAN did tell us who they had: https://www.teamakzonobel.com/press/podium-finish-for-team-akzonobel-in-leg-zero-opening-skirmish 
Team AkzoNobel crew list:
Skipper: Simeon Tienpont (NED)
Roberto Bermúdez de Castro (ESP)
Brad Farrand (NZL)
Martine Grael (BRA)
Brad Jackson (NZL)
Emily Nagel (BER)
Jules Salter (GBR)
Nicolai Sehested (DEN)
Joca Signorini (BRA)

Which means that somehow we lost Annemieke Bes and got Emily Nagel (compared to their website listed crew) and Luke Molloy (8th male crew listed). Is that due to prior commitments (and not rating this around the island very high?).

Bouwe/Brunel did clearly state they had to juggle their crew around in the post race interview with some shore crew joining on board for the RTI. Will be interesting to see who TTOP and Brunel take for the Fastnet. People who did the delivery, the RTI, a new batch from all the applications (I think around 1200-1300 CVs were sent in to Brunel using their webpage alone)?

2. My source who had informed me of all the entrants so far well ahead of time (although Brunel was a bit on-again/off-again so probably should not count that one) seems to start to doubt the earlier claim about the 8th boat being a done-deal... Nothing to do with leg 0 or qualifying but more with presenting value to those sponsors and suppliers of the race that had to bring the money together. Still not fully dismissed though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good find. One of the few teams with a website.

Emily Nagel is unexpected, they have 3 spare males and used one of them.
If it is not just a test that would make them the first team with a spare female. That also moves them to 2 spare under 30, one of each sex. - Looks like a well rounded rooster.
The only other team with 2 spare u30 is DF, all their u30 are male. Vestas has 1 but only 7+2 total so far.

Looking through images there seems to be a tight control on the unannounced crews...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, DtM said:

I note that Dee described her crew in her very happy video piece after the race as "guys". I just love how happy she was and how proud of her crew she was.

It is just an expression (except where David Witt is concerned).

Agreed.  From a verbal point it is more colloquial, in writing I think it more accurate to either state both genders or use the generic "crew" since it is either less immediate or encompasses a large audience.  However, a minor point and it is fantastic seeing these teams develop.   

On a side note, the Magenta project posted a request from a ocean racing club looking for blue water (re ocean experience) sailors for a paid gig for the Fastnet.   Hmmmm I pondered.  What large boat needs a set of sailors on short notice, with the emphasis on women when you'd think all boats entered into the race would have established crews.  It was a curiosity at the least. 

Last minute opportunity for the Fastnet Race, get involved
https://m.facebook.com/groups/115414967714/permalink/10156647641307715/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, DtM said:

Welcome back SS.  I have missed you.

Thanks DtM. I have actually been doing some real boaty stuff instead of voicing my opinions on the forums.

I was on a Safety & Survival at Sea course the other week (not the American version) with a day of theory then into the pool trying to get into a liferaft. One thing that convinced me of is the importance in NOT having to ever get into one - not easy, not pleasant and left me knackered. Playing with flares and fire-extinguishers was a little less daunting though.

I can see however why VOR insist on all crew members having gone through S&S@S course.

Travelling too much and not sailing enough - the curse of the working classes

SS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, lostmydetailsagain said:

1. It bugs me that there is no crew list (or declaration from the teams themselves) for who is around during these official races. TAN did tell us who they had: https://www.teamakzonobel.com/press/podium-finish-for-team-akzonobel-in-leg-zero-opening-skirmish 
Team AkzoNobel crew list:
Skipper: Simeon Tienpont (NED)
Roberto Bermúdez de Castro (ESP)
Brad Farrand (NZL)
Martine Grael (BRA)
Brad Jackson (NZL)
Emily Nagel (BER)
Jules Salter (GBR)
Nicolai Sehested (DEN)
Joca Signorini (BRA)

Which means that somehow we lost Annemieke Bes and got Emily Nagel (compared to their website listed crew) and Luke Molloy (8th male crew listed). Is that due to prior commitments (and not rating this around the island very high?).

Bouwe/Brunel did clearly state they had to juggle their crew around in the post race interview with some shore crew joining on board for the RTI. Will be interesting to see who TTOP and Brunel take for the Fastnet. People who did the delivery, the RTI, a new batch from all the applications (I think around 1200-1300 CVs were sent in to Brunel using their webpage alone)?

2. My source who had informed me of all the entrants so far well ahead of time (although Brunel was a bit on-again/off-again so probably should not count that one) seems to start to doubt the earlier claim about the 8th boat being a done-deal... Nothing to do with leg 0 or qualifying but more with presenting value to those sponsors and suppliers of the race that had to bring the money together. Still not fully dismissed though.

 

Annemieke is on the team, just expanding crew list to maximize flexibility and ensuring redundancy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Miffy said:

 

Annemieke is on the team, just expanding crew list to maximize flexibility and ensuring redundancy. 

Is there any limit as to how many crew the teams can sign up?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I couldn't upload the GIF, but take a look at the last GIF in the article.  The primary focus is Scallywags bowman, but right towards the end it looks like a VO65 was really burying the bow for that stern seemed to lift a bit and the boat slowed.  WOW.  Couldn't tell who it was, perhaps Vestas or TTToP.  Of course it may just be wave angle, sure wish there was more video of that moment.

 

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/9779_6-hair-raising-moments-from-LegZero.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More from Volvo as a repeat from their site.  Crews for Fastnet

I see Brunel picked up Annie Lush.  All but two went with 7+2 and it looks like TToP shows only 9, 4F+5M so I'm guessing an open slot TBD or racing 9 for the fastnet, but will race even mix in other qualifiers?  

Was reading Scallywag skippers thought on the 7 male crew.  

Quote

Witt said: “We’ve got a bit of a strategy of having the least amount of people on board and the reason for that is for conditions like the Fastnet, especially coming back from the rock, when it’ll be VMG running 8-12 which is sort of what the majority of this Volvo is. We might tick a box and say we’re right, or we might say ‘hold on’ and change our whole strategy.”

is it mostly a VMG in a OD race and even still, 605 miles is one thing, 6000 another.  I don't think I'm on the SCallywag bandwagon, and as Miffy pointed out, if he tries to change strategy on a bad outcome, finding willing and talented female crew on a boat with that kind of ego....good luck.

----------

Vestas 11th Hour Racing

Charlie Enright09/10/84, Male, USA

Simon Fisher, 01/20/78, Male, GBR

Mark Towill, 10/20/88, Male, USA

Phil Harmer, 06/26/79, Male, AUS

Tom Johnson, 02/23/91, Male, AUS

Tony Mutter, 01/17/69, Male, NZL

Nick Dana, 02/06/86, Male, USA

Abby Ehler, 08/05/76, Female, GBR

Hannah Diamond, 01/13/90, Female, GBR

 

Dongfeng Race Team

Charles Caudrelier, 02/26/74, Male, FRA

Pascal Bidegorry, 06/26/76, Male, FRA

Daryl Wislang, 05/20/81, Male, NZL

Carolijn Brouwer, 07/25/73, Female, NED

Marie Riou, 08/21/81, Female, FRA

Horace (Jinhao) Chen, 02/15/92, Male, CHI

Jeremie Beyou, 06/26/76, Male, FRA

Stuart Bannatyne, 04/20/71, Male, NZL

Jackson Bouttell, 01/18/91, Male, GBR/AUS

 

MAPFRE

Xabi Fernàndez, 10/19/76, Male, ESP

Joan Vila, 11/12/61, Male, ESP

Antonio "Ñeti" Cuervas-Mons, 12/22/81, Male, ESP

Pablo Arrarte, 11/11/80, Male, ESP

Robert Greenhalgh, 08/17/77, Male, UK

Blair Tuke, 07/25/89, Male, NZL

Támara Echegoyen, 02/17/84, Female, ESP

Sophie Ciszek, 06/28/85, Female, AUS

Willy Altadill, 09/28/92, Male, ESP

 

Team Sun Hung Kai/Scallywag

David Witt, 03/05/71, Male, AUS

Steven Hales, 02/23/73, Male, UK

Luke Parkinson, 02/22/90, Male, AUS

Mark Fullerton, 09/27/70, Male, NZL

Benjamin Piggott, 10/12/95, Male, AUS

John Fisher, 09/16/70, Male, UK

David Mann, 03/15/70, Male, AUS

 

Team AkzoNobel

Simeon Tienpont, 01/20/82, Male, NED

Jules Salter, 12/16/68, Male, UK

Brad Jackson, 04/05/68, Male, NZL

Joca Signorini, 07/22/77, Male, BRA

Roberto 'Chuny' Bermúdez de Castro, 03/01/70, Male, ESP

Nicolai Sehested, 11/06/89, Male, DEN

Brad Farrand, 07/20/88, Male, NZL

Martine Grael, 02/12/91, Female, BRA

Emily Nagel (under trial), 03/18/94, Female, BERM

 

Team Brunel

Bouwe Bekking, 06/17/63, Male, NED

Carlo Huisman, 01/09/91, Male, NED

Kyle Langford, 07/30/89, Male, AUS

Alberto Bolzan, 05/14/82, Male, AUS

Annie Lush, 04/11/80, Female, UK

Jens Dolmer, Male, DEN

Robin Zinkman, Male, GER

Jo Aleh, Female, NZL

Juan Pablo Marcos, Male, ARG

 

Turn the Tide on Plastic

Dee Caffari, 01/23/73, Female, UK

Liz Wardley, 12/06/79, Female, AUS

Nicolas Lunven, Male, FRA

Bernardo Freitas, 02/18/90, Male, POR

Francesca Clapcich, 01/28/88, Female, ITA

Henry Bomby, 01/31/91, Male, UK

Lucas Chapman, 05/05/92, Male, AUS

Andrew McLean, 09/06/79, Male, NZL

Annika Zayac, Female, USA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Love the double speak of VOR management that say that the ridiculously named Zero Legs of the race (about as sad as Acts in the AC) are obligatory qualification races for entry and then add a note in the small print saying that an eighth entry would be allowed at a later date at the discretion on the management without completing any qualification races. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

 

Got to wonder about 8-12 for Fastnet.

Can that really be the wind matrix for a RTWR?

fastnet.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

More from Volvo as a repeat from their site.  Crews for Fastnet

Interesting(tm). Emily Nagel on Akzo is listed as trial. DF and Mapfre unchanged.

Vestas
-- Jena Mai Hansen
++ Abby Ehler
Good that they had 3 under 30 in their initial crew. 

TTT is one female short. u30 to their self imposed rules too.
Nicolas Lunven as their Nav?

Who is nav on Brunel?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Got to wonder about 8-12 for Fastnet.

Can that really be the wind matrix for a RTWR?

fastnet.JPG

I think  the VOR writeup and forecast for the race seems about right.  Upwind in lightish breezes that may require some tacking (1), building breeze still kind of the nose, but nothing heavy (2) and back to light for a downwind run (3).  As they are starting last they will also have to navigate around a whole bunch of boats so there could be some strategy involved as to when to tack if needed.  We may not see a tight finish this time around.

(1) Tues at start
(2) 24 hours later
(3) 24 hours later

 

windyty1.JPG

windyty2.JPG

windyty3.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

I think  the VOR writeup and forecast for the race seems about right.  Upwind in lightish breezes that may require some tacking (1), building breeze still kind of the nose, but nothing heavy (2) and back to light for a downwind run (3).  As they are starting last they will also have to navigate around a whole bunch of boats so there could be some strategy involved as to when to tack if needed.  We may not see a tight finish this time around.

(1) Tues at start
(2) 24 hours later
(3) 24 hours later

 

windyty1.JPG

windyty2.JPG

windyty3.JPG

What do you mean by Tues at start?

Sunday August 6 is the published start date. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

What do you mean by Tues at start?

Sunday August 6 is the published start date. 

If you worked where I worked, you'd have no brain as well, and it's Friday.  You are correct, of course and I would remove the first picture (that was Sat), but I'm not at the same browser anymore.  Goodness i need a drink

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

If you worked where I worked, you'd have no brain as well, and it's Friday.

Okay bucc5062, since we've still got two days to wait, you begged the question, where do/did you work?  Federal, State, Municipal government??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

Okay bucc5062, since we've still got two days to wait, you begged the question, where do/did you work?  Federal, State, Municipal government??

given the hint, not a bad guess, but sadly, private business and you'd understand I cannot divulge much in the wild.  i do software development, been doing it almost 40 years.  The current gig is not...um...stimulating and trying to change that.  

Just for fucks sake and to appease Jack's view that I 'never get off the lake', i did earned a Captain's license, Master rated with Sail.  I've not done blue water, but captained charter sails, I've delivered coastal solo, I've raced big boats dinghys, and PHRF with a 273 rating...and won a series.  I've faced fear so he can really suck it when telling me my view does not matter.  If I could put my life on pause I'd be on any VO65 (except Scallywag) in a heartbeat so while I may not know a lot about the technical aspects of sailing/racing blue water, I've followed it, dreamed it, and supported it and as a geek, damn smart about understanding it.

So, my picks for Fastnet

Mapfre - they are dialed in and want to make a mark from the start.  Hell of a crew and the skipper already is gelling them together
Askonobel - I like their program and think they will be the first, after Mapfre to dial in
Dongfeng - Talent.  But Talent needs heart and have yet to see that.
Brunel - Not yet.  Bouwie is late to the game and he wont push a green (as in don;t know each other) crew.
TToP - Dee knows the waters and she has a top first officer.  That youngish crew will be hungry to repeat and move up a slot, but not yet
Vestas - Great talent, but ego's may get in the way.  They could be top three, but I sense mid pack or worse right now
Scallywag - Witt is running a bad game.  "We are men, we are strong.  We win".  6 of 7 teams  disagree and it will show.

I will not predict a 9 month race till the start, but the top four could be Mapfre, Brunel, Dongfeng, Askonobel.  I'm cheering for Dee and AKNB with shout outs to mapfre and Brunel (sorry SS, even though I know they will be strong)

Sunday AM, I am chomecasting the start.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Is there a word to describe how you feel being lectured ad nauseam about a RTWR by a pond sailor?

Yes Jack, it's call being an asshole.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, so now back to the Fastnet, a significantly more tactical race than this year's Round the Island turned out to be. More emphasis on skipper/navigator interaction.  We know all the skippers and at least some of the navigators have been named and some can be surmised, but based on skipper/navigator, what might the placing be?

Meanwhile, I am still keeping my fingers crossed for the 'home' team, while strongly supporting Dee.

Also, I'm hoping that in the long run of the forthcoming RTW race, some of the boats watched the RTI footage and, for the sake of their masts, noticed what was different on Mapfre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

Okay, so now back to the Fastnet, a significantly more tactical race than this year's Round the Island turned out to be. More emphasis on skipper/navigator interaction.  We know all the skippers and at least some of the navigators have been named and some can be surmised, but based on skipper/navigator, what might the placing be?

Meanwhile, I am still keeping my fingers crossed for the 'home' team, while strongly supporting Dee.

Also, I'm hoping that in the long run of the forthcoming RTW race, some of the boats watched the RTI footage and, for the sake of their masts, noticed what was different on Mapfre.

I noticed they went to multiple jibs vs a larger sail.  It might take more effort trimming and balancing, but is the idea to not drive the bow down as much, distribute force at more points on the mast?  Clearly they had speed.  I saw TTToP do something similar and even applauded the reefed main at the start.  they didn't time it well, but given the gusty winds, they could better manage and drive through them.  

If any of these guys are serious about a win, I feel we could see a stronger/ aggressive start this race.  I set my list based on the experience/talent and what was shown in the RTI, but I'm cheering for Dee and for Nobel.  Honestly, I like them all but for Scally.  Early wake up call to watch the start, have marine traffic set up, their tracker set up...Thank goodness it is Sunday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For some reason they are starting the VOR boats last, so they will be beating through the majority of the fleet in the Needles Channel. They always do this, it is a bloody nightmare.

It is going to be horrible, and busy. 300 boats all meeting in the narrowest part of the course

Hopefully no issues for anyone. Otherwise it is a very short race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

I noticed they went to multiple jibs vs a larger sail.

My point was they were skating along, not bow plunging in relatively unaggressive seas. All the sails were working together to keep the boat driving forward fast, as well as probably loading the mast in a manner that it could take almost indefinitely within carbon fiber limits.  Dialed in as you called it. If one could go back to video of the last VOR, I believe one would find that, in far worse sea conditions upwind, SCA during its winning leg had much the same sail plan, and sometimes the inner jib wasn't pulling, i.e. not trimmed continuously. In those sea conditions, plunging into the next wave was inevitable and unavoidable.

To my mind, what the 'winning team' in the next race has to work out, apart from all the multitude of other things that have to be worked out, is what is the best sail plan for every condition. I am inclined to believe that that means that the winning team has to have polars that it itself established from experience, not from those provided by the designer, sailmaker or anyone else. And those polars need to take into account the load on the rig, if that is possible.  Francis Vaughan or anyone else, is that possible? Or does it just has to be 'gut instinct' when to back off?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Retired Sailor said:

My point was they were skating along, not bow plunging in relatively unaggressive seas. All the sails were working together to keep the boat driving forward fast, as well as probably loading the mast in a manner that it could take almost indefinitely within carbon fiber limits.  Dialed in as you called it. If one could go back to video of the last VOR, I believe one would find that, in far worse sea conditions upwind, SCA during its winning leg had much the same sail plan, and sometimes the inner jib wasn't pulling, i.e. not trimmed continuously. In those sea conditions, plunging into the next wave was inevitable and unavoidable.

To my mind, what the 'winning team' in the next race has to work out, apart from all the multitude of other things that have to be worked out, is what is the best sail plan for every condition. I am inclined to believe that that means that the winning team has to have polars that it itself established from experience, not from those provided by the designer, sailmaker or anyone else. And those polars need to take into account the load on the rig, if that is possible.  Francis Vaughan or anyone else, is that possible? Or does it just has to be 'gut instinct' when to back off?

I read a piece from AKNobel that in the run to Lisbon they will be doing just that.  Throwing stuff up, recording numbers (a lot!) so they can perhaps have those types of polars.  I like that approach, but there is the "feel' factor that will also play in.  The other point AK made was the four returning teams, Brunel, Mapfre, Vestas, and Dongfeng have that advantage and this is their way to jump start the process.  They may not do well in that section, but the database they make could be gold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Is there a word to describe how you feel being lectured ad nauseam about a RTWR by a pond sailor?

Thank god someone finally said it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

I read a piece from AKNobel that in the run to Lisbon they will be doing just that.  Throwing stuff up, recording numbers (a lot!) so they can perhaps have those types of polars.  I like that approach, but there is the "feel' factor that will also play in.  The other point AK made was the four returning teams, Brunel, Mapfre, Vestas, and Dongfeng have that advantage and this is their way to jump start the process.  They may not do well in that section, but the database they make could be gold.

 

Even amateur racing sailors setup their own unique polars. No one uses polars prepared by sailmakers or boat designers. 

It is silly easy these days with data integration. Just let the software record all the data - getting everything from the onboard sensors. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Miffy said:

 

Even amateur racing sailors setup their own unique polars. No one uses polars prepared by sailmakers or boat designers. 

It is silly easy these days with data integration. Just let the software record all the data - getting everything from the onboard sensors. 

Okay.  Good.  Then AKN is doing that per what they say.  I found it interesting that they were open about what they were going to do pre Leg 1.  They are being methodical and doing all the can to be ready to go full out and telling fans.  It is something I appreciate and why I am supporting their team.

1 hour ago, Alinghi4ever said:

bucc,

Why did you say Dongfeng has shown no heart in your Fastnet Preview and what do you mean by that?

Because they had the chance to lead, and they finished fourth.  Because they had enough talent on that boat to beat Mapfre, and they did not.  Either you look at each race as a real race or not.  We can argue long view or moment, but 3 other teams sailed in the moment.  I can accept when a new team takes a race to tune or figure out how far to push and the say as such (TToP), but DF has been there done that and a brand new team beat them and Brunel, who had just had a week to get ready, beat them.  I respect all the teams, but at the end of the day, we have our favorites.  I expect DF to podium, they have the talent...so, I wish them well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Just let the software record all the data - getting everything from the onboard sensors. 

Okay, so Miffy please do tell, apart from the mast breaking in the middle of the night (Dongfeng) or broad daylight (Mapfre) what sensors do they have to tell them they are overstressing the rig. As a person who developed his own polars because there were none available, I'd love to know?

27 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Okay.  Good.  Then AKN is doing that per what they say.

And this bucc5062, is to tell you that your previous post for a Fastnet tracker was wrong, and if you are going to get up to watch the start, then before you go to bed, you better give me a workable tracker, or I would have to kill you!  Can't find anything that works on a laptop! I can't find a way to isolate just the VOR fleet on either Google or Rolex sites.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

Okay, so Miffy please do tell, apart from the mast breaking in the middle of the night (Dongfeng) or broad daylight (Mapfre) what sensors do they have to tell them they are overstressing the rig. As a person who developed his own polars because there were none available, I'd love to know?

And this bucc5062, is to tell you that your previous post for a Fastnet tracker was wrong, and if you are going to get up to watch the start, then before you go to bed, you better give me a workable tracker, or I shall have to kill you!  Can't find anything that works on a laptop! I can't find a way to isolate just the VOR fleet on either Google or Rolex sites.

I'm using marinetraffic.com.  I spent the 12$ a month to allow 8 boats as a fleet.  I'll post the MMSI numbers.

This is the fastnet fleet tracker

http://www.rolexfastnetrace.com/Tracking-Full-Page-Hidden/2017-fleet-tracking-race-player.html
 which I cannot say anything about other than it may have an app but it works on a browser.  See pic, I was able to limit to IMOCA and VO65

According to the fastnet website they should be live streaming the starts then after that I'm switching to MT and/or tracker.  

May I live another day.
MMSI from Marine traffic.

VESTAS 11TH HOUR 367616310 Sailing Vessel

TTTOP VOLVO65 RACING 319081500 Sailing Vessel

TEAM AKZONOBEL 319119500 Sailing Vessel

TC6 MAPFRE 224530860 Sailing Vessel

SCA 235101548 Sailing Vessel

DONGFENG VO65NO 1319060300 Sailing Vessel

BRUNEL 244780246 Sailing Vessel

AZZAM UAE2 470437000 Sailing Vessel

Capture.PNG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Miffy said:

 

Even amateur racing sailors setup their own unique polars. No one uses polars prepared by sailmakers or boat designers. 

It is silly easy these days with data integration. Just let the software record all the data - getting everything from the onboard sensors. 

That's just plain wrong.  Accurate polars come from either the design office or in the case of handicap sailing a rating office.  These can then be modified during sail training and racing and saved as separate Polar files.  But, one has to have a base line from which to start, otherwise it is garbage in/garbage out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

Okay, so Miffy please do tell, apart from the mast breaking in the middle of the night (Dongfeng) or broad daylight (Mapfre) what sensors do they have to tell them they are overstressing the rig. As a person who developed his own polars because there were none available, I'd love to know?

And this bucc5062, is to tell you that your previous post for a Fastnet tracker was wrong, and if you are going to get up to watch the start, then before you go to bed, you better give me a workable tracker, or I would have to kill you!  Can't find anything that works on a laptop! I can't find a way to isolate just the VOR fleet on either Google or Rolex sites.

Retired sailor.  If you go to the YB tracker on fastnet page and deselect every class except the VOR 65 you will see and follow only the VOR 65

Screen Shot 2017-08-05 at 6.15.25 PM.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

That's just plain wrong.  Accurate polars come from either the design office or in the case of handicap sailing a rating office.  These can then be modified during sail training and racing and saved as separate Polar files.  But, one has to have a base line from which to start, otherwise it is garbage in/garbage out.

(I'm agreeing with you)

Funny thing...Everyone airplane (outside home built) has a set of numbers established for its performance.  These numbers come from test pilots putting the very new plane through various key moments.  They record these numbers and put them in a manual that is suppose to be memorized by a pilot flying the plane, or at the least, known for a given flight.

Funny thing, by the time that plane get into a customer's hands, rare will it be that a plane performs to those exact numbers.  Over time an owner may record "real" performance numbers, but the base line is always what is in the manual.  Smart pilots may recite the manual numbers, but they will fly by what they've learned the plane will do.

VO65's certainly come with polars and it would make sense that any team would first attempt to sail to those numbers, then start to experiment, record and note how far the actual boat will deviate from the base.  I think it cool that AKNBL was open in what they were doing.  A very teaching moment.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Retired Sailor: depends on the boat, the crew and your comfort level. Establishing polars for us is usually like this, good weather? Okay. Let's try the inventory and various combinations. Laptop with adrena. The technical folks take care to make sure the boat instruments are working properly. Then the laptop records the data. Crew sail as hard as they dare. Go home and data looked at to put polars together. 

 

Charts supplied by sail makers and design teams are glorified marketing material. Ask if they're willing to put a guarantee with financial penalties like one might ask a boat builder on weight. I think most will quickly ask for the chart back. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

B&G take on the Fastnet.

https://bandg.com/volvo-ocean-race-2017/volvo-ocean-race-news/vor-libby-greenhalgh/rolex-fastnet-race-weather-preview/

Inshore or Offshore?

For the VO65 fleet, they will get out into the Solent in good time and still be able to benefit from the tide and wind bends on the Swanage headland, from there comes the first decision of when to head offshore, the boats won’t make favourable tide at Portland Bill so it is when to step out and how far.

It would be a bold navigator that takes on the black route and presses the other side of the Casquets Exclusion zone to try and utilise the tidal rush by the channel islands for what is essentially a minimal potential gain for a risky position relative to where you are trying to get

I would expect the fleet will press out from Swanage towards Casquets looking to find that layline for Lands End with wind looking light between Salcombe and Lizard point an offshore route would be best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Hitchhiker said:

Retired sailor.  If you go to the YB tracker on fastnet page and deselect every class except the VOR 65 you will see and follow only the VOR 65

Thanks Hitchhiker, I tried that but all the other boats showed up, may be because the race hasn't started yet. I'll try again later.

1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

I'm using marinetraffic.com.  I spent the 12$ a month to allow 8 boats as a fleet.  I'll post the MMSI numbers.

Okay, bucc, sleep sound.

48 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Retired Sailor: depends on the boat, the crew and your comfort level. Establishing polars for us is usually like this, good weather? Okay. Let's try the inventory and various combinations. Laptop with adrena. The technical folks take care to make sure the boat instruments are working properly. Then the laptop records the data. Crew sail as hard as they dare. Go home and data looked at to put polars together. 

Obviously, you think of me the same way DtM, Potter etc. do. However, I spent 30 years developing polars for my own boats because worthwhile polars didn't exist when I first owned them.  "Crew sail as hard as they dare" isn't a sensor, it's at best 'gut instinct'.   Because you avoided it, I take it your answer on the rig sensors, is 'no they don't have any'. No wonder so many carbon fiber masts break on racing boats. I sure hope DFRT has added 'gut instinct' to its on-board software package. Mapfre sure have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another cool video on navigation challenges in the Fastnet, this one from Jules Salter of AkzoNobel:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

I am inclined to believe that that means that the winning team has to have polars that it itself established from experience, not from those provided by the designer, sailmaker or anyone else. And those polars need to take into account the load on the rig, if that is possible.  Francis Vaughan or anyone else, is that possible? Or does it just has to be 'gut instinct' when to back off?

I am far from the best person to ask or trust an answer from.  As already pointed out above, polars from a sail manufacturer are at best a first round approximation. But perhaps the most important part that the sail maker can't provide really useful guidance on are the cross-overs. There is no substitute for working these out on the boat. 

The problem with rig loads is that you aren't worried about static loads. Sure, you could get a simple approximation to much of the rig load from the sail design. That already forms part of the sail's design.  But the dynamic loads are way out of the control of the sail designer. That is where judgement and the instrumentation of the rig comes in. All of these boats carry rig tension instrumentation, that is intended to provide guidance. But even then it can only tell you that the last slam took you into the red zone. Judgement is needed to decide whether the next slam is going to take your rig past its limit.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

I read a piece from AKNobel that in the run to Lisbon they will be doing just that.  Throwing stuff up, recording numbers (a lot!) so they can perhaps have those types of polars.  I like that approach, but there is the "feel' factor that will also play in.  The other point AK made was the four returning teams, Brunel, Mapfre, Vestas, and Dongfeng have that advantage and this is their way to jump start the process.  They may not do well in that section, but the database they make could be gold.

Source link?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

 That is where judgement and the instrumentation of the rig comes in. All of these boats carry rig tension instrumentation, that is intended to provide guidance. But even then it can only tell you that the last slam took you into the red zone. Judgement is needed to decide whether the next slam is going to take your rig past its limit.

Thanks for taking the time to reply Francis. If they have rig tension information wouldn't that show up potentially damaging loadings. As a simple example, repeated differences in loads in the windward components relative to one another (caps, and the intermediates to the roots of each successive spreader etc.), and the same in the leeward components.  What I am trying to get at is whether there is a way DFRT or Mapfre could have known there was a problem before it happened.  Maybe there was loading information but it wasn't collated and presented in a readily understandable form (e.g. stress at the upper starboard spreader repeatedly red zone!). I was surprised by the sail configuration that DFRT used that caused the problem (a masthead with a reefed main), but their speed polars presumably showed that it worked, otherwise they wouldn't have used it so much.  And even North admitted that the boat was underpowered if they dropped down to the V1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

 

Because they had the chance to lead, and they finished fourth.  Because they had enough talent on that boat to beat Mapfre, and they did not.  Either you look at each race as a real race or not.  We can argue long view or moment, but 3 other teams sailed in the moment.  I can accept when a new team takes a race to tune or figure out how far to push and the say as such (TToP), but DF has been there done that and a brand new team beat them and Brunel, who had just had a week to get ready, beat them.  I respect all the teams, but at the end of the day, we have our favorites.  I expect DF to podium, they have the talent...so, I wish them well.

Hi Bucc, the reason DFRT came fourth was a mistake / clusterfuck on a sailchange as they reentered the Solent. That took the from a close second to fourth. No lack of heart, no lack of 'sailing in the moment's. Just bad luck at an important part of the race.

Obviously you have no way of knowing this, as it was not reported. Out of interest, would you think they have a lack of heart if they had finished second?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Retired Sailor said:

If they have rig tension information wouldn't that show up potentially damaging loadings. As a simple example, repeated differences in loads in the windward components relative to one another (caps, and the intermediates to the roots of each successive spreader etc.), and the same in the leeward components.  What I am trying to get at is whether there is a way DFRT or Mapfre could have known there was a problem before it happened.

The VO65 has, AFAIK load cells on the chain plates and maybe forestay. No idea about backstay. Since the backstays have jumpers, it gets quite messy to work out what the precise loads on the mast are. It was indicated that they don't have the level of instrumentation that was common on the VO70.  The problem with mast tube failures is that you don't really get a good idea of where the anomalous loads are just by looking at rig tensions.  You can get an indication that the dynamic loads are getting higher as you drive the boat, but you can't really have any sort of absolute information. DFRT's mast failed due to deliberately applied loads bending the mast.  A load cell at the mast step might have helped, but they really knew what they were doing, and had been warned they were outside the design regime for the mast. So they were not blind to what they were doing.  Indeed, they knew the static strain the mast was under, as they had deliberately acted to put it there.  The failure of the mast track bonding was predictable with that strain, and the failure of the mast tube not a huge step further. But carbon is a messy beast to predict and short of high tech tricks like bonding strain gauge wires into the layup of the mast,  knowing exactly what was happening would have been difficult. But SS knew the tube had not been designed for that loading. And they told DFRT.  All they get on the boat when driving are a set of warning lights that tell the helmsman they hit the red zone. Little more than a "please back off" warning.  Trouble with those is they become a target, and a helmsman might decide to drive hard enough to just have the lights flickering on.

If you think about the loads on the rig during slamming there is a lot going on.  There are resonant modes in the rig, and these can act to create ridiculous peak loads when the entire boat slams  Predicting just what is going on from simple rig tension would need a medium sized supercomputer to run the model, and it would probably still get it wrong. Throwing a few dozen load cells at the rig might help.  But even then, you can't stop deliberate misuse.  The regime of "we have got away with it so far, so we should be OK to keep doing it" is a common problem.  It is what resulted in the loss of two Space Shuttles, and a host of other catastrophes. This is where real experience come in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Potter said:

Hi Bucc, the reason DFRT came fourth was a mistake / clusterfuck on a sailchange as they reentered the Solent. That took the from a close second to fourth. No lack of heart, no lack of 'sailing in the moment's. Just bad luck at an important part of the race.

Obviously you have no way of knowing this, as it was not reported. Out of interest, would you think they have a lack of heart if they had finished second?

No, I think they have heart, they have passion, and having lost races due to "things going wrong", I can feel for them.

Perhaps I said it wrong and I apologize for that.  How they are presented in public, I just don't connect with them.  That's it.  As I said, I respect the hell out of all the sailors in this race, except one.

Now, is anyone else locked out of the fastnet website?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RS, you are incredible and so unrealistic it is scary. Bucc, you are little better.

Each wave creates different loads and these guys and girls are racing as hard as they can. Staring at gauges all the time is not what this is about. Anyway, what the gauges tell you, just like wind instruments, is what happened. It is passed and gone, you survived.

Some of what happens is calculated (no not from gauges but from years and 1000's of miles of experience) risk. Very very occasionally there is a miscalculation or mishap.

Anything the two of you have thought of the brains in all of the teams thought of and either put into practice or discarded years ago on this or another programme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First time watching this and I have to say the media presentation is pretty damn good.  Getting excited for the IRC0 and VO65 start.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He He - I have to laugh at some of the uninformed comments on the forum.

In the last race DFRT were criticised for 4 sail reaching and now Mapfre are being praised for it - make your minds up guys.

But the comment by Bucc that Dongfeng had no heart had me falling off my chair and to follow up with the "fact" they could have passed Mapfre in the RTIOW sprint an didn't because they "have no heart". It was a practice race my dear boy, they were pacing Mapfre so took the opportunity to try a couple of things to see if it was faster or slower - it was slower. This is part of Leg 0, the real stuff starts in October.

The Fastnet Race is a bit different and already it is DFRT & Mapfre that appear to be the front runners but only just. It will be interesting to see the positions when I wake up in the morning (close to midnight race time when the first tidal gate will have been negotiated and the tide will have turned (and turned back) or maybe Dee's Southerly position will pay off further out into the channel - who knows.

Don't you remember the footage of Charles thumping the wheel or jumping down onto the cockpit floor in the last race, or the efforts he made to learn enough Chinese to say the right thing when they got to the stage in Sanya?

Mo Heart - that's so funny.

SS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

He He - I have to laugh at some of the uninformed comments on the forum.

In the last race DFRT were criticised for 4 sail reaching and now Mapfre are being praised for it - make your minds up guys.

But the comment by Bucc that Dongfeng had no heart had me falling off my chair and to follow up with the "fact" they could have passed Mapfre in the RTIOW sprint an didn't because they "have no heart". It was a practice race my dear boy, they were pacing Mapfre so took the opportunity to try a couple of things to see if it was faster or slower - it was slower. This is part of Leg 0, the real stuff starts in October.

The Fastnet Race is a bit different and already it is DFRT & Mapfre that appear to be the front runners but only just. It will be interesting to see the positions when I wake up in the morning (close to midnight race time when the first tidal gate will have been negotiated and the tide will have turned (and turned back) or maybe Dee's Southerly position will pay off further out into the channel - who knows.

Don't you remember the footage of Charles thumping the wheel or jumping down onto the cockpit floor in the last race, or the efforts he made to learn enough Chinese to say the right thing when they got to the stage in Sanya?

Mo Heart - that's so funny.

SS

Okay, I did clarify so can you at least acknowledge that.  I didn't word it right initially and good lord, we all have favorites.  How they are presented, the public face...I don't connect to the team in the same as others, as you and since perception for many comes from what we see, I see a hell of a well sailed boat, yes I remember Black and Horace, but it took a long time for that story to emerge.  

Maybe it is the french way.  Following the VG it was much easier to cheer for HB, Coleman, a couple others, because I could relate in some way.  The front runner not so much.  Not questioning his ability to sail, but his ability to connect to the crowd.  

I've said my mea culpa, agree with everything you said, but my heart is for TToP and Askonobel and those two I hope do well.  They are hanging tough right now.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Alinghi4ever said:

bucc,

Be honest, did you really think Dongfeng Race Team would put every card on the Table for these Qualifying (Leg 0) Races? I still think they're holding back somewhat. Yes, these Boats are OD but depending on the configurations you can win or lose a lot. That's what happened with Dongfeng at the "Round the Island" Race.

That's an interesting take.  Would any team?  How much is at stake, image wise, vs what you learn playing.  Aknobel talked about throwing all kinds of sail plans up for the next "race" so perhaps none of them are taking it serious as a "gotta win".  I just saw that Mapfre tacked over and yb has them as leader so at what point to you stop testing and start hitting the pedal.  It is a level of sophistication above my scale for when I raced, I didn't hold back.  

At last check the spread front to back was @ 1.3 miles so if DF is pushing harder this time, so too is everyone else.  As a side note, Mapfre AIS is not sending for I can see the other six and it seems yb is slightly behind Marinetraffic (I see DF and AKN have now tacked) and Brunel and TToP remain heading out.  Certainly not all playing follow the leader

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nobody gains anything by winning this race except a bit of a bit of sponsor glory (which isn't to be sneezed at.)

But these races are the first time the boats have come together.  Tactically, learning everything you can sailing in the fleet has to be top priority. Minimally you have a chance to see how your setups are working against the other boats.  Which of course cuts both ways.   But you would want to be pretty confident about how good you were to be sandbagging. You stifle your own ability to learn. 

Some teams are going to be learning fast, as the latecomers are still getting to grips with the boat and their crew.  There are times when every team will want to push as hard as they can, as they will be learning when they do.  And there will be other times when it makes more sense to look about them, and pace things accordingly, and learn other things.

I'm sure that winning is something everyone wants, and they will all be in race mode.  But at this early stage, I would hope that the broader picture would dominate thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hm. Turn the Tide on Plastic appears to be off the back of the group in the tracker. Did something happen to them?

59874b64ab2d3_ScreenShot2017-08-06at9_59_32AM.thumb.png.eacf778d564d9de9c25b218b5043519d.png

Eh; I just updated and they're looking a lot closer. I think it's probably just a combination of them being toward the back (which is understandable, given their program at this point) and the tracker updates being staggered/laggy:

59874c8faadcd_ScreenShot2017-08-06at10_03_58AM.thumb.png.0d032fca5e4e68df4342e5eabc8afba3.png

Edited by jbc
update with latest screenshot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

I can't seem to get onto the Fastnet page or tracker, now.  Anyone else having an issue?

The official site's tracker wasn't working for me, so I'm using this one:

http://cf.yb.tl/fastnet2017

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Fastnet page has been dead all day for me, the YB tracker works.

TTT falling behind and going more south. We'll see how that works out once the rest has to tack. Call it 3nm behind the pack at 18h15

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great footage off Vestas from shortly after the start. Short-tacking through the Solent on these boats is bananas! It looks like a port/starboard violation at one point; I thought there was another such violation in the footage I was looking at earlier with all the start-line shouting on Scallywag (which, yeah; I get what you guys have been saying about them).

But that made me wonder: what are the rules in a race like this these days for something like a port-starboard violation? I can't imagine the penalty would be retirement after a post-race protest hearing. Do they do time penalties? Or do they all just be grown-ups about it and refrain from protesting as long as the transgressor isn't being a dick or blatantly taking advantage?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's the video of all the screaming aboard Scallywag. I know there are people who think that's the right way to race a boat, but my own experience has been that if there's yelling going on it's a sign of people making it up as they go, where a more polished team just quietly goes about their business. Not to say there hasn't been a fair amount of yelling (sometimes by me) on boats I've raced. But it's not the ideal; more a response to problems. And problems aren't fast.

I think the ideal is more like what it looked like on ETNZ while winning the Cup: eery silence.

I'll admit it though: yelling is entertaining to watch:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites