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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
JeronimoII

VOR 2017-18

3,522 posts in this topic

Love the double speak of VOR management that say that the ridiculously named Zero Legs of the race (about as sad as Acts in the AC) are obligatory qualification races for entry and then add a note in the small print saying that an eighth entry would be allowed at a later date at the discretion on the management without completing any qualification races. 

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21 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

 

Got to wonder about 8-12 for Fastnet.

Can that really be the wind matrix for a RTWR?

fastnet.JPG

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

More from Volvo as a repeat from their site.  Crews for Fastnet

Interesting(tm). Emily Nagel on Akzo is listed as trial. DF and Mapfre unchanged.

Vestas
-- Jena Mai Hansen
++ Abby Ehler
Good that they had 3 under 30 in their initial crew. 

TTT is one female short. u30 to their self imposed rules too.
Nicolas Lunven as their Nav?

Who is nav on Brunel?

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43 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Got to wonder about 8-12 for Fastnet.

Can that really be the wind matrix for a RTWR?

fastnet.JPG

I think  the VOR writeup and forecast for the race seems about right.  Upwind in lightish breezes that may require some tacking (1), building breeze still kind of the nose, but nothing heavy (2) and back to light for a downwind run (3).  As they are starting last they will also have to navigate around a whole bunch of boats so there could be some strategy involved as to when to tack if needed.  We may not see a tight finish this time around.

(1) Tues at start
(2) 24 hours later
(3) 24 hours later

 

windyty1.JPG

windyty2.JPG

windyty3.JPG

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20 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

I think  the VOR writeup and forecast for the race seems about right.  Upwind in lightish breezes that may require some tacking (1), building breeze still kind of the nose, but nothing heavy (2) and back to light for a downwind run (3).  As they are starting last they will also have to navigate around a whole bunch of boats so there could be some strategy involved as to when to tack if needed.  We may not see a tight finish this time around.

(1) Tues at start
(2) 24 hours later
(3) 24 hours later

 

windyty1.JPG

windyty2.JPG

windyty3.JPG

What do you mean by Tues at start?

Sunday August 6 is the published start date. 

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2 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

What do you mean by Tues at start?

Sunday August 6 is the published start date. 

If you worked where I worked, you'd have no brain as well, and it's Friday.  You are correct, of course and I would remove the first picture (that was Sat), but I'm not at the same browser anymore.  Goodness i need a drink

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2 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

If you worked where I worked, you'd have no brain as well, and it's Friday.

Okay bucc5062, since we've still got two days to wait, you begged the question, where do/did you work?  Federal, State, Municipal government??

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2 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

Okay bucc5062, since we've still got two days to wait, you begged the question, where do/did you work?  Federal, State, Municipal government??

given the hint, not a bad guess, but sadly, private business and you'd understand I cannot divulge much in the wild.  i do software development, been doing it almost 40 years.  The current gig is not...um...stimulating and trying to change that.  

Just for fucks sake and to appease Jack's view that I 'never get off the lake', i did earned a Captain's license, Master rated with Sail.  I've not done blue water, but captained charter sails, I've delivered coastal solo, I've raced big boats dinghys, and PHRF with a 273 rating...and won a series.  I've faced fear so he can really suck it when telling me my view does not matter.  If I could put my life on pause I'd be on any VO65 (except Scallywag) in a heartbeat so while I may not know a lot about the technical aspects of sailing/racing blue water, I've followed it, dreamed it, and supported it and as a geek, damn smart about understanding it.

So, my picks for Fastnet

Mapfre - they are dialed in and want to make a mark from the start.  Hell of a crew and the skipper already is gelling them together
Askonobel - I like their program and think they will be the first, after Mapfre to dial in
Dongfeng - Talent.  But Talent needs heart and have yet to see that.
Brunel - Not yet.  Bouwie is late to the game and he wont push a green (as in don;t know each other) crew.
TToP - Dee knows the waters and she has a top first officer.  That youngish crew will be hungry to repeat and move up a slot, but not yet
Vestas - Great talent, but ego's may get in the way.  They could be top three, but I sense mid pack or worse right now
Scallywag - Witt is running a bad game.  "We are men, we are strong.  We win".  6 of 7 teams  disagree and it will show.

I will not predict a 9 month race till the start, but the top four could be Mapfre, Brunel, Dongfeng, Askonobel.  I'm cheering for Dee and AKNB with shout outs to mapfre and Brunel (sorry SS, even though I know they will be strong)

Sunday AM, I am chomecasting the start.

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Is there a word to describe how you feel being lectured ad nauseam about a RTWR by a pond sailor?

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28 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Is there a word to describe how you feel being lectured ad nauseam about a RTWR by a pond sailor?

Yes Jack, it's call being an asshole.  

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Okay, so now back to the Fastnet, a significantly more tactical race than this year's Round the Island turned out to be. More emphasis on skipper/navigator interaction.  We know all the skippers and at least some of the navigators have been named and some can be surmised, but based on skipper/navigator, what might the placing be?

Meanwhile, I am still keeping my fingers crossed for the 'home' team, while strongly supporting Dee.

Also, I'm hoping that in the long run of the forthcoming RTW race, some of the boats watched the RTI footage and, for the sake of their masts, noticed what was different on Mapfre.

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6 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

Okay, so now back to the Fastnet, a significantly more tactical race than this year's Round the Island turned out to be. More emphasis on skipper/navigator interaction.  We know all the skippers and at least some of the navigators have been named and some can be surmised, but based on skipper/navigator, what might the placing be?

Meanwhile, I am still keeping my fingers crossed for the 'home' team, while strongly supporting Dee.

Also, I'm hoping that in the long run of the forthcoming RTW race, some of the boats watched the RTI footage and, for the sake of their masts, noticed what was different on Mapfre.

I noticed they went to multiple jibs vs a larger sail.  It might take more effort trimming and balancing, but is the idea to not drive the bow down as much, distribute force at more points on the mast?  Clearly they had speed.  I saw TTToP do something similar and even applauded the reefed main at the start.  they didn't time it well, but given the gusty winds, they could better manage and drive through them.  

If any of these guys are serious about a win, I feel we could see a stronger/ aggressive start this race.  I set my list based on the experience/talent and what was shown in the RTI, but I'm cheering for Dee and for Nobel.  Honestly, I like them all but for Scally.  Early wake up call to watch the start, have marine traffic set up, their tracker set up...Thank goodness it is Sunday.

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For some reason they are starting the VOR boats last, so they will be beating through the majority of the fleet in the Needles Channel. They always do this, it is a bloody nightmare.

It is going to be horrible, and busy. 300 boats all meeting in the narrowest part of the course

Hopefully no issues for anyone. Otherwise it is a very short race.

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

I noticed they went to multiple jibs vs a larger sail.

My point was they were skating along, not bow plunging in relatively unaggressive seas. All the sails were working together to keep the boat driving forward fast, as well as probably loading the mast in a manner that it could take almost indefinitely within carbon fiber limits.  Dialed in as you called it. If one could go back to video of the last VOR, I believe one would find that, in far worse sea conditions upwind, SCA during its winning leg had much the same sail plan, and sometimes the inner jib wasn't pulling, i.e. not trimmed continuously. In those sea conditions, plunging into the next wave was inevitable and unavoidable.

To my mind, what the 'winning team' in the next race has to work out, apart from all the multitude of other things that have to be worked out, is what is the best sail plan for every condition. I am inclined to believe that that means that the winning team has to have polars that it itself established from experience, not from those provided by the designer, sailmaker or anyone else. And those polars need to take into account the load on the rig, if that is possible.  Francis Vaughan or anyone else, is that possible? Or does it just has to be 'gut instinct' when to back off?

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And, lest we forget, Mapfre has already broken one mast since the refit!

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A great run down of what to expect tomorrow.  Ready to get this started,
 

 

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1 hour ago, Retired Sailor said:

My point was they were skating along, not bow plunging in relatively unaggressive seas. All the sails were working together to keep the boat driving forward fast, as well as probably loading the mast in a manner that it could take almost indefinitely within carbon fiber limits.  Dialed in as you called it. If one could go back to video of the last VOR, I believe one would find that, in far worse sea conditions upwind, SCA during its winning leg had much the same sail plan, and sometimes the inner jib wasn't pulling, i.e. not trimmed continuously. In those sea conditions, plunging into the next wave was inevitable and unavoidable.

To my mind, what the 'winning team' in the next race has to work out, apart from all the multitude of other things that have to be worked out, is what is the best sail plan for every condition. I am inclined to believe that that means that the winning team has to have polars that it itself established from experience, not from those provided by the designer, sailmaker or anyone else. And those polars need to take into account the load on the rig, if that is possible.  Francis Vaughan or anyone else, is that possible? Or does it just has to be 'gut instinct' when to back off?

I read a piece from AKNobel that in the run to Lisbon they will be doing just that.  Throwing stuff up, recording numbers (a lot!) so they can perhaps have those types of polars.  I like that approach, but there is the "feel' factor that will also play in.  The other point AK made was the four returning teams, Brunel, Mapfre, Vestas, and Dongfeng have that advantage and this is their way to jump start the process.  They may not do well in that section, but the database they make could be gold.

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bucc,

Why did you say Dongfeng has shown no heart in your Fastnet Preview and what do you mean by that?

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On 05/08/2017 at 4:39 AM, southerncross said:

 

 

good to see some more unedited footage -- muscling sails, start, chit chat, etc.  

'very happy with the fractional'  at ~ 1:40.

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11 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Is there a word to describe how you feel being lectured ad nauseam about a RTWR by a pond sailor?

Thank god someone finally said it!

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

I read a piece from AKNobel that in the run to Lisbon they will be doing just that.  Throwing stuff up, recording numbers (a lot!) so they can perhaps have those types of polars.  I like that approach, but there is the "feel' factor that will also play in.  The other point AK made was the four returning teams, Brunel, Mapfre, Vestas, and Dongfeng have that advantage and this is their way to jump start the process.  They may not do well in that section, but the database they make could be gold.

 

Even amateur racing sailors setup their own unique polars. No one uses polars prepared by sailmakers or boat designers. 

It is silly easy these days with data integration. Just let the software record all the data - getting everything from the onboard sensors. 

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3 minutes ago, Miffy said:

 

Even amateur racing sailors setup their own unique polars. No one uses polars prepared by sailmakers or boat designers. 

It is silly easy these days with data integration. Just let the software record all the data - getting everything from the onboard sensors. 

Okay.  Good.  Then AKN is doing that per what they say.  I found it interesting that they were open about what they were going to do pre Leg 1.  They are being methodical and doing all the can to be ready to go full out and telling fans.  It is something I appreciate and why I am supporting their team.

1 hour ago, Alinghi4ever said:

bucc,

Why did you say Dongfeng has shown no heart in your Fastnet Preview and what do you mean by that?

Because they had the chance to lead, and they finished fourth.  Because they had enough talent on that boat to beat Mapfre, and they did not.  Either you look at each race as a real race or not.  We can argue long view or moment, but 3 other teams sailed in the moment.  I can accept when a new team takes a race to tune or figure out how far to push and the say as such (TToP), but DF has been there done that and a brand new team beat them and Brunel, who had just had a week to get ready, beat them.  I respect all the teams, but at the end of the day, we have our favorites.  I expect DF to podium, they have the talent...so, I wish them well.

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56 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Just let the software record all the data - getting everything from the onboard sensors. 

Okay, so Miffy please do tell, apart from the mast breaking in the middle of the night (Dongfeng) or broad daylight (Mapfre) what sensors do they have to tell them they are overstressing the rig. As a person who developed his own polars because there were none available, I'd love to know?

27 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Okay.  Good.  Then AKN is doing that per what they say.

And this bucc5062, is to tell you that your previous post for a Fastnet tracker was wrong, and if you are going to get up to watch the start, then before you go to bed, you better give me a workable tracker, or I would have to kill you!  Can't find anything that works on a laptop! I can't find a way to isolate just the VOR fleet on either Google or Rolex sites.

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18 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

Okay, so Miffy please do tell, apart from the mast breaking in the middle of the night (Dongfeng) or broad daylight (Mapfre) what sensors do they have to tell them they are overstressing the rig. As a person who developed his own polars because there were none available, I'd love to know?

And this bucc5062, is to tell you that your previous post for a Fastnet tracker was wrong, and if you are going to get up to watch the start, then before you go to bed, you better give me a workable tracker, or I shall have to kill you!  Can't find anything that works on a laptop! I can't find a way to isolate just the VOR fleet on either Google or Rolex sites.

I'm using marinetraffic.com.  I spent the 12$ a month to allow 8 boats as a fleet.  I'll post the MMSI numbers.

This is the fastnet fleet tracker

http://www.rolexfastnetrace.com/Tracking-Full-Page-Hidden/2017-fleet-tracking-race-player.html
 which I cannot say anything about other than it may have an app but it works on a browser.  See pic, I was able to limit to IMOCA and VO65

According to the fastnet website they should be live streaming the starts then after that I'm switching to MT and/or tracker.  

May I live another day.
MMSI from Marine traffic.

VESTAS 11TH HOUR 367616310 Sailing Vessel

TTTOP VOLVO65 RACING 319081500 Sailing Vessel

TEAM AKZONOBEL 319119500 Sailing Vessel

TC6 MAPFRE 224530860 Sailing Vessel

SCA 235101548 Sailing Vessel

DONGFENG VO65NO 1319060300 Sailing Vessel

BRUNEL 244780246 Sailing Vessel

AZZAM UAE2 470437000 Sailing Vessel

Capture.PNG

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

 

Even amateur racing sailors setup their own unique polars. No one uses polars prepared by sailmakers or boat designers. 

It is silly easy these days with data integration. Just let the software record all the data - getting everything from the onboard sensors. 

That's just plain wrong.  Accurate polars come from either the design office or in the case of handicap sailing a rating office.  These can then be modified during sail training and racing and saved as separate Polar files.  But, one has to have a base line from which to start, otherwise it is garbage in/garbage out.

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20 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

Okay, so Miffy please do tell, apart from the mast breaking in the middle of the night (Dongfeng) or broad daylight (Mapfre) what sensors do they have to tell them they are overstressing the rig. As a person who developed his own polars because there were none available, I'd love to know?

And this bucc5062, is to tell you that your previous post for a Fastnet tracker was wrong, and if you are going to get up to watch the start, then before you go to bed, you better give me a workable tracker, or I would have to kill you!  Can't find anything that works on a laptop! I can't find a way to isolate just the VOR fleet on either Google or Rolex sites.

Retired sailor.  If you go to the YB tracker on fastnet page and deselect every class except the VOR 65 you will see and follow only the VOR 65

Screen Shot 2017-08-05 at 6.15.25 PM.png

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7 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

That's just plain wrong.  Accurate polars come from either the design office or in the case of handicap sailing a rating office.  These can then be modified during sail training and racing and saved as separate Polar files.  But, one has to have a base line from which to start, otherwise it is garbage in/garbage out.

(I'm agreeing with you)

Funny thing...Everyone airplane (outside home built) has a set of numbers established for its performance.  These numbers come from test pilots putting the very new plane through various key moments.  They record these numbers and put them in a manual that is suppose to be memorized by a pilot flying the plane, or at the least, known for a given flight.

Funny thing, by the time that plane get into a customer's hands, rare will it be that a plane performs to those exact numbers.  Over time an owner may record "real" performance numbers, but the base line is always what is in the manual.  Smart pilots may recite the manual numbers, but they will fly by what they've learned the plane will do.

VO65's certainly come with polars and it would make sense that any team would first attempt to sail to those numbers, then start to experiment, record and note how far the actual boat will deviate from the base.  I think it cool that AKNBL was open in what they were doing.  A very teaching moment.
 

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Retired Sailor: depends on the boat, the crew and your comfort level. Establishing polars for us is usually like this, good weather? Okay. Let's try the inventory and various combinations. Laptop with adrena. The technical folks take care to make sure the boat instruments are working properly. Then the laptop records the data. Crew sail as hard as they dare. Go home and data looked at to put polars together. 

 

Charts supplied by sail makers and design teams are glorified marketing material. Ask if they're willing to put a guarantee with financial penalties like one might ask a boat builder on weight. I think most will quickly ask for the chart back. 

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From the VO Twit page.  From Sir RKJ.

Screen Shot 2017-08-05 at 7.04.31 PM.png

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B&G take on the Fastnet.

https://bandg.com/volvo-ocean-race-2017/volvo-ocean-race-news/vor-libby-greenhalgh/rolex-fastnet-race-weather-preview/

Inshore or Offshore?

For the VO65 fleet, they will get out into the Solent in good time and still be able to benefit from the tide and wind bends on the Swanage headland, from there comes the first decision of when to head offshore, the boats won’t make favourable tide at Portland Bill so it is when to step out and how far.

It would be a bold navigator that takes on the black route and presses the other side of the Casquets Exclusion zone to try and utilise the tidal rush by the channel islands for what is essentially a minimal potential gain for a risky position relative to where you are trying to get

I would expect the fleet will press out from Swanage towards Casquets looking to find that layline for Lands End with wind looking light between Salcombe and Lizard point an offshore route would be best.

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1 hour ago, Hitchhiker said:

Retired sailor.  If you go to the YB tracker on fastnet page and deselect every class except the VOR 65 you will see and follow only the VOR 65

Thanks Hitchhiker, I tried that but all the other boats showed up, may be because the race hasn't started yet. I'll try again later.

1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

I'm using marinetraffic.com.  I spent the 12$ a month to allow 8 boats as a fleet.  I'll post the MMSI numbers.

Okay, bucc, sleep sound.

48 minutes ago, Miffy said:

Retired Sailor: depends on the boat, the crew and your comfort level. Establishing polars for us is usually like this, good weather? Okay. Let's try the inventory and various combinations. Laptop with adrena. The technical folks take care to make sure the boat instruments are working properly. Then the laptop records the data. Crew sail as hard as they dare. Go home and data looked at to put polars together. 

Obviously, you think of me the same way DtM, Potter etc. do. However, I spent 30 years developing polars for my own boats because worthwhile polars didn't exist when I first owned them.  "Crew sail as hard as they dare" isn't a sensor, it's at best 'gut instinct'.   Because you avoided it, I take it your answer on the rig sensors, is 'no they don't have any'. No wonder so many carbon fiber masts break on racing boats. I sure hope DFRT has added 'gut instinct' to its on-board software package. Mapfre sure have.

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Another cool video on navigation challenges in the Fastnet, this one from Jules Salter of AkzoNobel:

 

 

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6 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

I am inclined to believe that that means that the winning team has to have polars that it itself established from experience, not from those provided by the designer, sailmaker or anyone else. And those polars need to take into account the load on the rig, if that is possible.  Francis Vaughan or anyone else, is that possible? Or does it just has to be 'gut instinct' when to back off?

I am far from the best person to ask or trust an answer from.  As already pointed out above, polars from a sail manufacturer are at best a first round approximation. But perhaps the most important part that the sail maker can't provide really useful guidance on are the cross-overs. There is no substitute for working these out on the boat. 

The problem with rig loads is that you aren't worried about static loads. Sure, you could get a simple approximation to much of the rig load from the sail design. That already forms part of the sail's design.  But the dynamic loads are way out of the control of the sail designer. That is where judgement and the instrumentation of the rig comes in. All of these boats carry rig tension instrumentation, that is intended to provide guidance. But even then it can only tell you that the last slam took you into the red zone. Judgement is needed to decide whether the next slam is going to take your rig past its limit.

 

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5 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

I read a piece from AKNobel that in the run to Lisbon they will be doing just that.  Throwing stuff up, recording numbers (a lot!) so they can perhaps have those types of polars.  I like that approach, but there is the "feel' factor that will also play in.  The other point AK made was the four returning teams, Brunel, Mapfre, Vestas, and Dongfeng have that advantage and this is their way to jump start the process.  They may not do well in that section, but the database they make could be gold.

Source link?

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57 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

 That is where judgement and the instrumentation of the rig comes in. All of these boats carry rig tension instrumentation, that is intended to provide guidance. But even then it can only tell you that the last slam took you into the red zone. Judgement is needed to decide whether the next slam is going to take your rig past its limit.

Thanks for taking the time to reply Francis. If they have rig tension information wouldn't that show up potentially damaging loadings. As a simple example, repeated differences in loads in the windward components relative to one another (caps, and the intermediates to the roots of each successive spreader etc.), and the same in the leeward components.  What I am trying to get at is whether there is a way DFRT or Mapfre could have known there was a problem before it happened.  Maybe there was loading information but it wasn't collated and presented in a readily understandable form (e.g. stress at the upper starboard spreader repeatedly red zone!). I was surprised by the sail configuration that DFRT used that caused the problem (a masthead with a reefed main), but their speed polars presumably showed that it worked, otherwise they wouldn't have used it so much.  And even North admitted that the boat was underpowered if they dropped down to the V1.

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6 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

 

Because they had the chance to lead, and they finished fourth.  Because they had enough talent on that boat to beat Mapfre, and they did not.  Either you look at each race as a real race or not.  We can argue long view or moment, but 3 other teams sailed in the moment.  I can accept when a new team takes a race to tune or figure out how far to push and the say as such (TToP), but DF has been there done that and a brand new team beat them and Brunel, who had just had a week to get ready, beat them.  I respect all the teams, but at the end of the day, we have our favorites.  I expect DF to podium, they have the talent...so, I wish them well.

Hi Bucc, the reason DFRT came fourth was a mistake / clusterfuck on a sailchange as they reentered the Solent. That took the from a close second to fourth. No lack of heart, no lack of 'sailing in the moment's. Just bad luck at an important part of the race.

Obviously you have no way of knowing this, as it was not reported. Out of interest, would you think they have a lack of heart if they had finished second?

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1 hour ago, Retired Sailor said:

If they have rig tension information wouldn't that show up potentially damaging loadings. As a simple example, repeated differences in loads in the windward components relative to one another (caps, and the intermediates to the roots of each successive spreader etc.), and the same in the leeward components.  What I am trying to get at is whether there is a way DFRT or Mapfre could have known there was a problem before it happened.

The VO65 has, AFAIK load cells on the chain plates and maybe forestay. No idea about backstay. Since the backstays have jumpers, it gets quite messy to work out what the precise loads on the mast are. It was indicated that they don't have the level of instrumentation that was common on the VO70.  The problem with mast tube failures is that you don't really get a good idea of where the anomalous loads are just by looking at rig tensions.  You can get an indication that the dynamic loads are getting higher as you drive the boat, but you can't really have any sort of absolute information. DFRT's mast failed due to deliberately applied loads bending the mast.  A load cell at the mast step might have helped, but they really knew what they were doing, and had been warned they were outside the design regime for the mast. So they were not blind to what they were doing.  Indeed, they knew the static strain the mast was under, as they had deliberately acted to put it there.  The failure of the mast track bonding was predictable with that strain, and the failure of the mast tube not a huge step further. But carbon is a messy beast to predict and short of high tech tricks like bonding strain gauge wires into the layup of the mast,  knowing exactly what was happening would have been difficult. But SS knew the tube had not been designed for that loading. And they told DFRT.  All they get on the boat when driving are a set of warning lights that tell the helmsman they hit the red zone. Little more than a "please back off" warning.  Trouble with those is they become a target, and a helmsman might decide to drive hard enough to just have the lights flickering on.

If you think about the loads on the rig during slamming there is a lot going on.  There are resonant modes in the rig, and these can act to create ridiculous peak loads when the entire boat slams  Predicting just what is going on from simple rig tension would need a medium sized supercomputer to run the model, and it would probably still get it wrong. Throwing a few dozen load cells at the rig might help.  But even then, you can't stop deliberate misuse.  The regime of "we have got away with it so far, so we should be OK to keep doing it" is a common problem.  It is what resulted in the loss of two Space Shuttles, and a host of other catastrophes. This is where real experience come in.

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3 hours ago, Potter said:

Hi Bucc, the reason DFRT came fourth was a mistake / clusterfuck on a sailchange as they reentered the Solent. That took the from a close second to fourth. No lack of heart, no lack of 'sailing in the moment's. Just bad luck at an important part of the race.

Obviously you have no way of knowing this, as it was not reported. Out of interest, would you think they have a lack of heart if they had finished second?

No, I think they have heart, they have passion, and having lost races due to "things going wrong", I can feel for them.

Perhaps I said it wrong and I apologize for that.  How they are presented in public, I just don't connect with them.  That's it.  As I said, I respect the hell out of all the sailors in this race, except one.

Now, is anyone else locked out of the fastnet website?

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RS, you are incredible and so unrealistic it is scary. Bucc, you are little better.

Each wave creates different loads and these guys and girls are racing as hard as they can. Staring at gauges all the time is not what this is about. Anyway, what the gauges tell you, just like wind instruments, is what happened. It is passed and gone, you survived.

Some of what happens is calculated (no not from gauges but from years and 1000's of miles of experience) risk. Very very occasionally there is a miscalculation or mishap.

Anything the two of you have thought of the brains in all of the teams thought of and either put into practice or discarded years ago on this or another programme.

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First time watching this and I have to say the media presentation is pretty damn good.  Getting excited for the IRC0 and VO65 start.  

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He He - I have to laugh at some of the uninformed comments on the forum.

In the last race DFRT were criticised for 4 sail reaching and now Mapfre are being praised for it - make your minds up guys.

But the comment by Bucc that Dongfeng had no heart had me falling off my chair and to follow up with the "fact" they could have passed Mapfre in the RTIOW sprint an didn't because they "have no heart". It was a practice race my dear boy, they were pacing Mapfre so took the opportunity to try a couple of things to see if it was faster or slower - it was slower. This is part of Leg 0, the real stuff starts in October.

The Fastnet Race is a bit different and already it is DFRT & Mapfre that appear to be the front runners but only just. It will be interesting to see the positions when I wake up in the morning (close to midnight race time when the first tidal gate will have been negotiated and the tide will have turned (and turned back) or maybe Dee's Southerly position will pay off further out into the channel - who knows.

Don't you remember the footage of Charles thumping the wheel or jumping down onto the cockpit floor in the last race, or the efforts he made to learn enough Chinese to say the right thing when they got to the stage in Sanya?

Mo Heart - that's so funny.

SS

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5 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

He He - I have to laugh at some of the uninformed comments on the forum.

In the last race DFRT were criticised for 4 sail reaching and now Mapfre are being praised for it - make your minds up guys.

But the comment by Bucc that Dongfeng had no heart had me falling off my chair and to follow up with the "fact" they could have passed Mapfre in the RTIOW sprint an didn't because they "have no heart". It was a practice race my dear boy, they were pacing Mapfre so took the opportunity to try a couple of things to see if it was faster or slower - it was slower. This is part of Leg 0, the real stuff starts in October.

The Fastnet Race is a bit different and already it is DFRT & Mapfre that appear to be the front runners but only just. It will be interesting to see the positions when I wake up in the morning (close to midnight race time when the first tidal gate will have been negotiated and the tide will have turned (and turned back) or maybe Dee's Southerly position will pay off further out into the channel - who knows.

Don't you remember the footage of Charles thumping the wheel or jumping down onto the cockpit floor in the last race, or the efforts he made to learn enough Chinese to say the right thing when they got to the stage in Sanya?

Mo Heart - that's so funny.

SS

Okay, I did clarify so can you at least acknowledge that.  I didn't word it right initially and good lord, we all have favorites.  How they are presented, the public face...I don't connect to the team in the same as others, as you and since perception for many comes from what we see, I see a hell of a well sailed boat, yes I remember Black and Horace, but it took a long time for that story to emerge.  

Maybe it is the french way.  Following the VG it was much easier to cheer for HB, Coleman, a couple others, because I could relate in some way.  The front runner not so much.  Not questioning his ability to sail, but his ability to connect to the crowd.  

I've said my mea culpa, agree with everything you said, but my heart is for TToP and Askonobel and those two I hope do well.  They are hanging tough right now.  

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24 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

He He - I have to laugh at some of the uninformed comments on the forum.

In the last race DFRT were criticised for 4 sail reaching and now Mapfre are being praised for it - make your minds up guys.

But the comment by Bucc that Dongfeng had no heart had me falling off my chair and to follow up with the "fact" they could have passed Mapfre in the RTIOW sprint an didn't because they "have no heart". It was a practice race my dear boy, they were pacing Mapfre so took the opportunity to try a couple of things to see if it was faster or slower - it was slower. This is part of Leg 0, the real stuff starts in October.

The Fastnet Race is a bit different and already it is DFRT & Mapfre that appear to be the front runners but only just. It will be interesting to see the positions when I wake up in the morning (close to midnight race time when the first tidal gate will have been negotiated and the tide will have turned (and turned back) or maybe Dee's Southerly position will pay off further out into the channel - who knows.

Don't you remember the footage of Charles thumping the wheel or jumping down onto the cockpit floor in the last race, or the efforts he made to learn enough Chinese to say the right thing when they got to the stage in Sanya?

Mo Heart - that's so funny.

SS

Mate,

our boys carved out an 0,5 nm lead over MAPFRE according to the Fastnet Tracker :)

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bucc,

Be honest, did you really think Dongfeng Race Team would put every card on the Table for these Qualifying (Leg 0) Races? I still think they're holding back somewhat. Yes, these Boats are OD but depending on the configurations you can win or lose a lot. That's what happened with Dongfeng at the "Round the Island" Race.

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1 minute ago, Alinghi4ever said:

bucc,

Be honest, did you really think Dongfeng Race Team would put every card on the Table for these Qualifying (Leg 0) Races? I still think they're holding back somewhat. Yes, these Boats are OD but depending on the configurations you can win or lose a lot. That's what happened with Dongfeng at the "Round the Island" Race.

That's an interesting take.  Would any team?  How much is at stake, image wise, vs what you learn playing.  Aknobel talked about throwing all kinds of sail plans up for the next "race" so perhaps none of them are taking it serious as a "gotta win".  I just saw that Mapfre tacked over and yb has them as leader so at what point to you stop testing and start hitting the pedal.  It is a level of sophistication above my scale for when I raced, I didn't hold back.  

At last check the spread front to back was @ 1.3 miles so if DF is pushing harder this time, so too is everyone else.  As a side note, Mapfre AIS is not sending for I can see the other six and it seems yb is slightly behind Marinetraffic (I see DF and AKN have now tacked) and Brunel and TToP remain heading out.  Certainly not all playing follow the leader

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12 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

That's an interesting take.  Would any team?  How much is at stake, image wise, vs what you learn playing.  Aknobel talked about throwing all kinds of sail plans up for the next "race" so perhaps none of them are taking it serious as a "gotta win".  I just saw that Mapfre tacked over and yb has them as leader so at what point to you stop testing and start hitting the pedal.  It is a level of sophistication above my scale for when I raced, I didn't hold back.  

At last check the spread front to back was @ 1.3 miles so if DF is pushing harder this time, so too is everyone else.  As a side note, Mapfre AIS is not sending for I can see the other six and it seems yb is slightly behind Marinetraffic (I see DF and AKN have now tacked) and Brunel and TToP remain heading out.  Certainly not all playing follow the leader

I still view these Leg 0 Races as Testing. Most important is to figure out which configuration works and which doesn't. I'm sure each of these Teams have Performance Analysts sitting in their back rooms trying to analyse what works and what doesn't. How you can get the optimal speed (performance) out of your boat! No one is going to go full trottle here.

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Nobody gains anything by winning this race except a bit of a bit of sponsor glory (which isn't to be sneezed at.)

But these races are the first time the boats have come together.  Tactically, learning everything you can sailing in the fleet has to be top priority. Minimally you have a chance to see how your setups are working against the other boats.  Which of course cuts both ways.   But you would want to be pretty confident about how good you were to be sandbagging. You stifle your own ability to learn. 

Some teams are going to be learning fast, as the latecomers are still getting to grips with the boat and their crew.  There are times when every team will want to push as hard as they can, as they will be learning when they do.  And there will be other times when it makes more sense to look about them, and pace things accordingly, and learn other things.

I'm sure that winning is something everyone wants, and they will all be in race mode.  But at this early stage, I would hope that the broader picture would dominate thinking.

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Posted (edited)

Hm. Turn the Tide on Plastic appears to be off the back of the group in the tracker. Did something happen to them?

59874b64ab2d3_ScreenShot2017-08-06at9_59_32AM.thumb.png.eacf778d564d9de9c25b218b5043519d.png

Eh; I just updated and they're looking a lot closer. I think it's probably just a combination of them being toward the back (which is understandable, given their program at this point) and the tracker updates being staggered/laggy:

59874c8faadcd_ScreenShot2017-08-06at10_03_58AM.thumb.png.0d032fca5e4e68df4342e5eabc8afba3.png

Edited by jbc
update with latest screenshot

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I can't seem to get onto the Fastnet page or tracker, now.  Anyone else having an issue?

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2 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

I can't seem to get onto the Fastnet page or tracker, now.  Anyone else having an issue?

The official site's tracker wasn't working for me, so I'm using this one:

http://cf.yb.tl/fastnet2017

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The Fastnet page has been dead all day for me, the YB tracker works.

TTT falling behind and going more south. We'll see how that works out once the rest has to tack. Call it 3nm behind the pack at 18h15

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Great footage off Vestas from shortly after the start. Short-tacking through the Solent on these boats is bananas! It looks like a port/starboard violation at one point; I thought there was another such violation in the footage I was looking at earlier with all the start-line shouting on Scallywag (which, yeah; I get what you guys have been saying about them).

But that made me wonder: what are the rules in a race like this these days for something like a port-starboard violation? I can't imagine the penalty would be retirement after a post-race protest hearing. Do they do time penalties? Or do they all just be grown-ups about it and refrain from protesting as long as the transgressor isn't being a dick or blatantly taking advantage?

 

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Here's the video of all the screaming aboard Scallywag. I know there are people who think that's the right way to race a boat, but my own experience has been that if there's yelling going on it's a sign of people making it up as they go, where a more polished team just quietly goes about their business. Not to say there hasn't been a fair amount of yelling (sometimes by me) on boats I've raced. But it's not the ideal; more a response to problems. And problems aren't fast.

I think the ideal is more like what it looked like on ETNZ while winning the Cup: eery silence.

I'll admit it though: yelling is entertaining to watch:

 

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Hm... Yelling is one thing. Yelling different commands is another.

Skip: How long?
Nav: 20 (sec)
Skip: Wind it up!
Nav: Slower! Slower!

What a box of fun.

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Well, y'all got me confused now for is TToP testing ,strategizing , or playing possum.  To my eye it looks like Dee was trading a little speed for more upwind position (more south).  The fleet has to tack towards her so.....a left shift would really help TToP, but seems a gamble.

I'm also following the IMOCA fleet and boy did SMA go in close.  It does seem that the VO65s are playing a slow catch up on that IMOCA fleet.
 

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So which position do you like the most?

Dee's, Charles or Xabis.

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15 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

And they told DFRT.  All they get on the boat when driving are a set of warning lights that tell the helmsman they hit the red zone. Little more than a "please back off" warning.  Trouble with those is they become a target, and a helmsman might decide to drive hard enough to just have the lights flickering on.

Hi Francis, just a short quote of your excellent explanation of why things are the way they are to thank you for taking the time to explain to someone who asks questions so that they can learn more about the boats and crews that are the subject of this forum.  Others just respond as if I am an idiot, which I am not.

Meanwhile, back at the Fastnet, there's a hell of a gradient around Start Point, which the VOR fleet will shortly experience, and the leading IMOCA 60 is making good use of it (2.5 knots faster than boats much further offshore. As the tide will shortly turn, the extra knots will hopefully help it get out and away.

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43 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

Looks like that was filmed off a Fairey Swordsman 37.  Fairey Marine built some truly fantastic boats.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

65285724.jpg

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2 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

So which position do you like the most?

Dee's, Charles or Xabis.

Charles is in a strong position, but not knowing tides or local conditions, I'd not commit.  Clearly a strong contest up front, but boy I'd love a mic on Dee to see what her thinking is.  They have stayed more outside much of this race.  The IMOCAs went further south so could there be a tide moment, a wind change?  As a racer I'd want to be on Charles' boat, as a fan, Dee's, as a reporter, on Mapfre, because I'd ask, do you have the next gear and if so, when do you shift?

 

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

At 7:19... Did Scallywag foul the starboard boat.  It sure looked like it.  The starboard tacked over as did Scally back to startboard, but that looked close from this angle.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

That Was AWESOME!!!

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Go Rambler!

 

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46 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

but boy I'd love a mic on Dee to see what her thinking is.

I'm with you, she could just be playing it simple (far fewer tacks) while seeing how the crew do or just being real canny. Still way too early to tell. Witt is the only one taking a flyer at the moment. We'll see how that plays out.   

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7 hours ago, jbc said:

Great footage off Vestas from shortly after the start. Short-tacking through the Solent on these boats is bananas! It looks like a port/starboard violation at one point; I thought there was another such violation in the footage I was looking at earlier with all the start-line shouting on Scallywag (which, yeah; I get what you guys have been saying about them).

But that made me wonder: what are the rules in a race like this these days for something like a port-starboard violation? I can't imagine the penalty would be retirement after a post-race protest hearing. Do they do time penalties? Or do they all just be grown-ups about it and refrain from protesting as long as the transgressor isn't being a dick or blatantly taking advantage?

 

If you're talking 0:51  -- Scallywag looks like she's pinned by Brunel to windward -- and maybe can't call for room to tack as Brunel is too close to the moorings (continuous obstruction) to windward of them. Can't tell, due lens / zoom compression.  On the other hand, he's not known as F. Witt for nothing.

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6 minutes ago, duncan (the other one) said:

If you're talking 0:51  -- Scallywag looks like she's pinned by Brunel to windward -- and maybe can't call for room to tack as Brunel is too close to the moorings (continuous obstruction) to windward of them. Can't tell, due lens / zoom compression.  On the other hand, he's not known as F. Witt for nothing.

 

I withdraw that -- look at 7:22 on the start Vid. Scallywag had plenty of room to tack behind Brunel.

 

How to make friends and influence people in the VO fleet - by D. Witt.

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The navigator on Rambler 88 is either a genius or a knucklehead. As I write this they are all alone up north of the fleet and right inshore. Soon they will have to tack out to the south and punch into the chop close hauled while all of the IMOCA 60s will be approaching them on a reach.

" A courageous decision " as the Brits would say. Things will soon get interesting.

Hugo Boss is getting clobbered.

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Time for bed. 

Rambler has lost a heap of ground but should beat the mob around The Lizard.

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10 hours ago, jbc said:

Here's the video of all the screaming aboard Scallywag. I know there are people who think that's the right way to race a boat, but my own experience has been that if there's yelling going on it's a sign of people making it up as they go, where a more polished team just quietly goes about their business. Not to say there hasn't been a fair amount of yelling (sometimes by me) on boats I've raced. But it's not the ideal; more a response to problems. And problems aren't fast.

I think the ideal is more like what it looked like on ETNZ while winning the Cup: eery silence.

I'll admit it though: yelling is entertaining to watch:

completely agree jbc - "A quiet boat is a quick boat"

 

 

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6 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

At 7:19... Did Scallywag foul the starboard boat.  It sure looked like it.  The starboard tacked over as did Scally back to startboard, but that looked close from this angle.

Looked to me that Scallywag was not "Tack complete" before the the other boat (German I think had t start heading up. Kind of conformed y the onboard footage of Scallywag.

Also on the Facebook feed they say that SW owes them some beers for that manouver

SS

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I am pleased to see that Witty hasn't lost any of his cowboy instincts that have "enhanced" skiff sailing for so many years.

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Scallywag reportedly have 8 of their declared volvo race crew on board for the fastnet even though they declared only 7 on the fastnet crew list as posted on the volvo site .... the 8th being the hk chinese token come back up navigator is rumored to be on board as the VIP guest ... here he is in the red jacket ... listening and learning ...

scallwag 8th crew.jpg

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Are they in distress Wittless? Surely the Hong Kong flag has the single flower petal pointing upwards to the sky, not down to the ground (or water)

Perhaps with 8 declared crew on board (whatever they told the organisers he was) might cause a little distress come Plymouth?

SS

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1 hour ago, wittless said:

Scallywag reportedly have 8 of their declared volvo race crew on board for the fastnet even though they declared only 7 on the fastnet crew list as posted on the volvo site .... the 8th being the hk chinese token come back up navigator is rumored to be on board as the VIP guest ... here he is in the red jacket ... listening and learning ...

scallwag 8th crew.jpg

A 1st post ..stick it into Witt troll..fuck off you turnip.

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3 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

I am pleased to see that Witty hasn't lost any of his cowboy instincts that have "enhanced" skiff sailing for so many years.

What have you driven to the start of a big offshore race other than your sister???

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34 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

What have you driven to the start of a big offshore race other than your sister???

And what have you driven to the start of a big offshore race Jack?

SS

 

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

A 1st post ..stick it into Witt troll..fuck off you turnip.

Your welcome Jack ...

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

A 1st post ..stick it into Witt troll..fuck off you turnip.

 

Have you got a little man crush on Witty? 

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6 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

 

Compared to this, I have a rough idea about which boat I'd prefer to be on...

 

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

82 footer and you???

same - honours even :-)

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57 minutes ago, mad said:

 

Have you got a little man crush on Witty? 

Mmmm!

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MAN, what a Turnaround. Biggest goal for Dongfeng for: Beat the Spaniards on MAPFRE. Pascal once again made on of the best Navigators Joan Vila look average.

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18 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

MAN, what a Turnaround. Biggest goal for Dongfeng for: Beat the Spaniards on MAPFRE. Pascal once again made on of the best Navigators Joan Vila look average.

Hard to tell from this shitty YB tracker but it looked like Mapfre may have had some issues to drop back in the fleet as far as they did.  Not to take anything away from Pascal.

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21 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

MAN, what a Turnaround. Biggest goal for Dongfeng for: Beat the Spaniards on MAPFRE. Pascal once again made on of the best Navigators Joan Vila look average.

Go Dutch!!  I guess teams are still just experimenting (lol).  Words adn timing are two objects you don't want to mess with.  Not even halfway...things can happen.  I'm hoping TToP is positioned because of a green and just picked crew.  They have moments, but very hard to play catch up without doing something drastic.

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Of all the new changes to come to the VOR, the mixed teams is the winner.  Seeing Sophie on the grinder and sitting on the rail with the guys just looks great.  

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4 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Go Dutch!!  I guess teams are still just experimenting (lol).  Words adn timing are two objects you don't want to mess with.  Not even halfway...things can happen.  I'm hoping TToP is positioned because of a green and just picked crew.  They have moments, but very hard to play catch up without doing something drastic.

I wouldn't mind AkzoNobel winning the Fastnet. Important for a new Team to show they can win :) We (Dongfeng) take second but beat our biggest rivals :D Charles/Pascal would be happy with that.

bucc,

Once the real Race starts in October I'll do Leg Threads otherwise this place will get too crowded.

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Which boat I'd rather be on? Cochise 10 of course, almost at the rock. ;) 

Akzo in front, TTT now 6nm behind. Lead pack is with 1.5nm of each other.

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Some random observations....

Couldn't help by notice the VO65s caught and passed almost all of the IMOCAs.  Wind angle?  Speed?  Single vs crew?  Perhaps those IMOCAs are not the best thing since sliced bread.

It struck me that in the IRC0 groups, there was a VO70.  Wow, but it must be putting a hurt on those slow assed VO65.....oh wait...nope.  Maybe size doesn't matter all the time.  Especially when a few 60s and under are ahead of mister pokey.

Can you believe it, CLEAN must be having orgasms...why those multi's are making the monohulls look like....damn...really, the VO65s passed them?  Man you got to love multihull speed.  Granted, Concise 10 is making a fool of everyone else, but then that boat looks like it's moving mach 5 at anchor.

I guess this shows that we all can have our favorite types, we can all have pinups of boats that gives us a woody, but to hold one up and say "This is the best" is just not true.  Certainly races like Fastnet, where we get to see a vast variety of boats, gives everyone a chance to see how boats perform in various conditions.

Last thought, when you turn YB on for all boats, man what a clusterfuck is going on in the back.  Sailing through that at night, lookouts would seem mandatory.

(In case you don't get it, tongue in cheek humor for a monday)

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