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There's no cost.  Just search YouTube and subscribe to the team.  Mapfre and DF are most active followed by Vestas.  Can't find one  for Scally or TToP.  Let me know if you find channels for those.  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUw2Mzx3vVQgcONzEAUOejw

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Thanks to you both (southerncross and jbc), I just googled Youtube Turn the Tide On Plasttic and got Dee videos, but she is being very coy on saying much, and all of them have previously been posted by a member on this forum.

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On 8/8/2017 at 11:08 PM, shanghaisailor said:

Close :-)

SS

And in the end. Mapfre wins.  Some may not like this style of ocean racing, but I find it intriguing.  DF did well and are a strong team.  Have to see what will happens next. 

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1 hour ago, Retired Sailor said:

Thanks to you both (southerncross and jbc), I just googled Youtube Turn the Tide On Plasttic and got Dee videos, but she is being very coy on saying much, and all of them have previously been posted by a member on this forum.

If you click on this link

https://www.facebook.com/TurntheTideonPlastic/

and like them you can follow this team.  I love they took the southern route, seems like they made some mistakes, but this is a team to watch.  Same with Akzo.  Mapfre is on it and at the moment, the team to beat when they head out on leg 1.  I think this last let will be a throw away for some teams and they will go back to testing configurations.  Windyty didn't show really strong winds for the leg(0).  I'll go out on a limb, TToP will push it harder this leg, because they need too.  If they don't, Leg one will not go well.

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6 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

And in the end. Mapfre wins.  Some may not like this style of ocean racing, but I find it intriguing.  DF did well and are a strong team.  Have to see what will happens next. 

Welcome back bucc, have you got over Akzo's lack of performance or are you still Dutch? And don't try going back to Dee, turncoat!

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1 minute ago, Retired Sailor said:

Welcome back bucc, have you got over Akzo's lack of performance or are you still Dutch?

Always dutch :-)  (ancestry)  I follow on their facebook page and website.  Their approach to this race is one I connect with for it is methodical and still oriented around the idea of winning.  As I read, they are using this time to "learn" and from what I see, while they make mistakes, which they admit, they move on and improve.  It would be bold for me to say they could podium, there is a stack of DF, Mapfre, Brunel to get past, but I don't write them out.

You know the surprise team?  Turn the Tide.  I think they will do well on in-ports and if Dee just starts to trust youth...they could rock the SO on the 3rd leg.  When the gun goes off on leg 1, playing it safe should not be in the book.

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5 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Always dutch :-)  (ancestry)  I follow on their facebook page and website.

So I was right. Me, by ancestry, I'm for the underdog, keeping fingers crossed for Charlie (but disappointed by results with Si-Fi on board), and strongly supporting Dee. I don't include Witt in that class, he's just a mongrel. But it looks like the forthcoming race is for Mapfre, Dongfeng or Brunel to lose.  

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5 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

So I was right. Me, by ancestry, I'm for the underdog, keeping fingers crossed for Charlie (but disappointed by results with Si-Fi on board), and strongly supporting Dee. I don't include Witt in that class, he's just a mongrel. But it looks like the forthcoming race is for Mapfre, Dongfeng or Brunel to lose.  

I'll end tonight with this thought.  Scallywag sails with a hubris that has carried the sailing community for decades, if not more.  This last leg certain was one mark against, still I fully expect them to push hard.  However, I see them failing over time and those teams that understood that strength comes first from talent will rise to the top.

As a Dutch, I have not one, but two options for podium.  My third is TToP and though I doubt VOR will get an 8th boat, if it is NZ repped...ah hell, but for Scally I'm happy for all the rest (but favs are the dutch)

 

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

I'll end tonight with this thought.

So goodnight and good luck. As to hubris, those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

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So while we wait for the start of what promises to be quite a test for all the teams, St Malo to Lisbon, I'm going to try stirring the pot a bit. In accordance with historic European naval/seafaring tradition, we already have France, Spain, Holland, and Denmark well represented, and Portugal, although Dee is a Brit. There's a Cardiff stopover, so what might that mean? It struck me that that was a strange choice when it was announced, but I guess Plymouth was already there in Leg Zero, as was Cowes, and they are due to sail out west and up over the top of Britain via the Irish Sea, so it may just be geographic. I am also inclined to agree with others that the eighth boat won't or shouldn't be gathering dust in October, but my money is still on what I have previously called a 'works' team. After you've already absorbed the cost of the boat, the sails, all the spares and the Boat Shop etc. etc. is going around the world anyway, why not. Ireland has previously fielded some pretty good crews, not necessarily in VOR.  And there's still a host of Brits, NZ, US etc. etc. still unaccounted for. Hell, how difficult can it be to actually find the skilled professionals from the marine industry alone to crew a boat, let alone find sufficient multiple sponsors to pay the minimal additional cost!! Just speculating while waiting, as patiently as I can, for the start.

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The 89/90 edition of the Whitbread Round The World race featured an Irish team, lead by, ironically Joe English! They finished 12th.

Since there has been so much talk about mixed gender teams, it ought to be noted that the 89/90 race also featured the first all female team lead by Tracy Edwards (MBE).

I haven't followed so much the conversation about an 8th team, other than to note the intense disdain of Dalts, by one member here. But, is there an argument to be made that the 8th boat be held as available spare, in case someone puts one of the entries on the bricks, (again!)?

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44 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

But, is there an argument to be made that the 8th boat be held as available spare, in case someone puts one of the entries on the bricks, (again!)?

No, I don't think there is a plausible argument for that option. It's not something you can simply ship around to have available, and (hopefully) all navigators have got the message about zooming in on electronic charts. However, if one wanted to have that possibility, then a solution would be to crew it with a 'works' team, and have it ready and available nearby should it be necessary to keep one of the top teams in contention. Highly unlikely, but who knows with VOR.  Hell they are now even providing new news on weekends!! I tend to believe they'll do their damnedest to get that boat on the course, one way or another.

BTW Harold Cudmore used to be one of the best the Irish had but he's ancient, like me.

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There are still discussions going on about an eighth team but even very old hands in the RTW scene that are involved in those discussions are losing hope that there will be a successful outcome.  If it does happen there will be a number of high profile programmes that will be hacked off with losing their highly skilled professionals.

As Potter has previously pointed out, those that are really deep in the know cannot talk about it.

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19 minutes ago, DtM said:

There are still discussions going on about an eighth team but even very old hands in the RTW scene that are involved in those discussions are losing hope that there will be a successful outcome.  If it does happen there will be a number of high profile programmes that will be hacked off with losing their highly skilled professionals.

Thanks DtM, point taken, but what if, just say, Peter Burling with Brunel, is just looking at whether VOR fits, and Bouwe was glad to oblige? How many others are still 'trying out' but could become available when crew lists are finalized? What if VOR said to those who don't get selected, okay, if you still want a place, this is the skipper you would be sailing for? Not saying Burling but there must be other potential skippers out there?

Hell, anyone trying out now is already potentially lost to their programs anyway. Or maybe what is happening is that crew selection is being influenced by the programs that they already sail for???

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There are still enough sailors from last round left to fill team 8.
Question is of course of the want to go again and if so in such an ad hoc constellation. (Or if they are currently busy working against each other competing for last second funding.)

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On the racing front, looking at Windyty forecast, this may start out as a slow boat to Lisbon.  Light winds, on the nose with what looks like a high sitting atop Brest.  Then as they round land to cross Biscay it is still on the noses and light,  By Monday it it shifts such that there is reaching down, but by Tuesdays a gybing fest.  This round will really work the navigators.

If they get an 8th boat the announcement would not happen till after these rounds.  At that ppoint boat 8 would be needing some ocean trails and they would not havea  lot of time to get it in.  I'm accepting they won't field #8 and it could not be used as a back up boat for that would be unfair to any other team after.  You wreck your boat, well Vestas set the standard for what happens next.  

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20 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

On the racing front

Grief bucc did you just wake up, this is old news and you need to let SA correct your spelling, and writing grammatically correct English would help!!

Back to the problem that DtM mentioned, it has to be financial, i.e. sponsor or sponsors.  Maybe old RTW hands should try the modern approach, i.e. some form of crowd funding.   

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3 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

Grief bucc did you just wake up, this is old news and you need to let SA correct your spelling!!

Back to the problem that DtM mentioned, it has to be financial, i.e. sponsor or sponsors.  Maybe old RTW hands should try the modern approach, i.e. some form of crowd funding.   

Allergies...and only 10 posts between, but that's medication for you.  Did I miss someone's review of the start tomorrow?  I can catch yb tracker and MT for the start then it's back to chores for the day.  

Ah!

Quote

At start time, Saint-Malo will be sitting in the middle of a high-pressure zone just behind an old frontal system, so light and variable winds are assured. This stretch of coastline is notorious as a navigator's nightmare and they're not going to get a break as the wind will shut off completely shortly after the start and the tide will be rushing against them in the early evening.

I see the VOR site already confirmed my windyty thoughts so good I came close.

If anything comes from a 8th, it will happen after they hit Lisbon (Isn't that where the boat resides?) and if I understand what folks have said here, they need to do a round trip to at least the Azores to make it look like they qualify.  Can you see "old salts" playing a pick up game on a VO65?  I'd be thrilled for 8, but the 7 are already showing a strong contest is coming.

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To Anarchist David from the SA front page.

You say ...

Witt is what we Australians call “fair dinkum” – a forthright bloke who doesn’t hide behind glib phrases or pretend to support every new outbreak of political correctness.

Do you have any knowledge of how he and his scallywag / Ragamuffin crew behave when on tour in third world countries?

 

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That is one tight grouping at the moment.  Looks like the conditions are playing crap shoot with the teams.  Scally went from up from to in the back, Mapfre leading strong.  The wisest move may be to stick as close to the leader with clean air, because if you get left behind in this shit, it looks like it will be hard to claw back up.

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Anyone else having trouble with YB tracker today.  I get the course but no boats, and the times being shown are all 14 August?

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14 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

Anyone else having trouble with YB tracker today.  I get the course but no boats, and the times being shown are all 14 August?

It worked this morning, but now they're gone, so it's not just you.

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15 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

Anyone else having trouble with YB tracker today.  I get the course but no boats, and the times being shown are all 14 August?

Yes. One comes to expect it with the VOR. The tracker is a major source of frustration.

It wont even load at all for me, so I have missed the interesting bits around the Brehat. At least liveships shows most of them fairly often.

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So I see the problem is that they have split the course into two legs, but where the hell is La Chausse de Sein, all I can find is its an area but no real map, and translation of a French page doesn't plot on Google maps!!!

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4 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

So I see the problem is that they have split the course into two legs, but where the hell is La Chausse de Sein, all I can find is its an area but no real map, and translation of a French page doesn't plot on Google maps!!!

Its the offshore passage outside Ile de Sein, at the southern end of the Iroise, and the northern end of the Bay of Audierne.

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4 minutes ago, staysail said:

Its the offshore passage outside Ile de Sein, at the southern end of the Iroise, and the northern end of the Bay of Audierne.

Thanks staysail, I'll give that a try, but surely the boats should be somewhere close by, so it's strange YB isn't showing them, even though the course has been split into two legs?

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4 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

Thanks staysail, I'll give that a try, but surely the boats should be somewhere close by, so it's strange YB isn't showing them, even though the course has been split into two legs?

I hadn't really looked at the course, (hoping to follow on the tracker!!!) but I have them on liveships ais site close to Perros Guirec on the North coast doing 8 to 10 kts and it is another 80 miles or so to the Chausee de Sein which is well round the corner and well south of Ushant.

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1 hour ago, staysail said:

I hadn't really looked at the course, (hoping to follow on the tracker!!!) but I have them on liveships ais site close to Perros Guirec on the North coast doing 8 to 10 kts and it is another 80 miles or so to the Chausee de Sein which is well round the corner and well south of Ushant.

Weird, because VOR site says todays leg was only 25 km, and finished hours ago with results, so are they motor/sailing overnight to the next start?? I guess most crew could get some sleep en route.  Presumably getting to an area with wind is preferable to drifting around all night, and still having to cover the same distance!! 

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This is how they appear on Marine Traffic as of 6 minutes ago..  If they finished, where are they going.  If they did not, Mapfre is killing right now (lead boat)

ETA:  Boat speeds range from 6.4 to over 8 kts and the rough course takes them past Ile de Batz the last bit of land before they can turn slightly more south.  They are certainly sailing into even crappy wind for a bit so there may be opportunities to tighten up the positions.

 

Capture.PNG

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Read today's VOR article, they've moved the restart i.e. the start of next part of the leg off the Northwest coast of France, but they didn't say how they are going to set a  start line, maybe just a bearing and distance to a mark/lighthouse.  However, the restarts are supposedly to be staggered by the first leg finishing times the same way as the Hague restart last race.  Good luck with that.

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34 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

This is how they appear on Marine Traffic as of 6 minutes ago..  If they finished, where are they going.  If they did not, Mapfre is killing right now (lead boat)

Sorry bucc forgot to include a quote, see my above reply.

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Not looking good for tomorrow's start, but if there's enough wind to stem the last few minutes of the flood, then they will then get flushed south west through the gap between Isle de Sein and the TSS zone!!

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6 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

Not looking good for tomorrow's start, but if there's enough wind to stem the last few minutes of the flood, then they will then get flushed south west through the gap between Isle de Sein and the TSS zone!!

Well...this is just bizarre.  I see then a mad dash to the "start" line as they are slated for 9 UTC (4 EDT) and TToP takes the inside route to get there...under power...oh well...will YB tracker follow?  I am glad I paid for marinetraffic to follow them when close(ish) to shore.

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18 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Well...this is just bizarre.  I see then a mad dash to the "start" line as they are slated for 9 UTC (4 EDT) and TToP takes the inside route to get there...under power...oh well...will YB tracker follow?

I think all have been under power for quite some time, and last time I looked (at Marine Traffic) five or so hours ago, it looked like nobody except perhaps Mapfre would make it, and TToP was in the last of a group of three boats.  I'll try again now, but without a 'paid subscription' it's not easy.  However, I am confident that YB will be up and running as the start time approaches.

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Team NZ boss Grant Dalton revels in Peter Burling v Blair Tuke round the world duel

"Team New Zealand's designer Guillaume Verdier is designing the foiling monohull that will feature in the 2019 Volvo, giving the Kiwis a feel for what looms.

"They will be really exciting boats. It just depends how everything goes, but we might look at it if we can afford it," Dalton said.

 - Stuff"

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/95747827/team-nz-boss-grant-dalton-backs-volvo-ocean-race-to-improve-peter-burling-and-blair-tuke

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What the hell is stealth mode and why would I, as a spectator want it on.  What am I missing here, because both trackers seemed to be screwing up at the moment.  I would hope this does not carry forward to the actual legs.

Capture.JPG

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Yay! This round the tracker discussion can commence a few weeks before the actual start.

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Tracker only updating every 6 hours as it is just being tested. Stealth mode is an option the teams will have during the race so they can execute a split or different strategy without everyone following. Brought in to create separation and add to the race.

 

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6 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

YB tracker is working fine, and Akzo was showing 5 minutes ago.

Now, but not before.  Now as I look...Woo Hoo, go Team Dee!  Things will change, but that has to be a good feeling.

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47 minutes ago, jfunk said:

Tracker only updating every 6 hours as it is just being tested. Stealth mode is an option the teams will have during the race so they can execute a split or different strategy without everyone following. Brought in to create separation and add to the race.

 

Stealth mode for boat to boat viewing is one thing, but should not be presented to the viewer.  I want to see all the boats all the time.  If they keep stealth mode such that I, a spectator, cannot see a boat they will lose people.

What are the rules for stealth?  How many an do it at the same time?  For how long?

As to their tracker, 6 hours?  Come on.  As a software developer I cannot get any valuable testing done waiting every 6 hours to see an update.  Of course if I'm the developer then I'd not wait 6 hours so why the hell should the people who are now able to track on a public website.  That makes no sense.  Seriosly, if you are going to put out a tracker, have the damn thing mostly debugged and ready for display.

Stealth mode to spectators....who allowed that decision to go through.

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That should get interesting.

The tracker is not accessible to the sailors. Never has been during a VOR leg. It is only for spectators, we know that VOR has at least one internal version with live data. (One of the pitfalls for Genny last round. Doing the interviews looking at live data the teams may not know.)
There was quite a bit discussion about AIS blackouts. Both allowing teams to turn it off for a time and filtering the other VOR boats. Result was that tampering with AIS is not acceptable to VOR, at all.

The way I see it the only way for this to play out is for a team to sneak out of AIS range and then go stealth and not get listed in the next position report(s). Not too relevant I'd say.

 

Overall tracker updates every 6h for spectators are still a lot of BS just like last time. If you don't want live data because it makes it hard for VOR media to spin write the story the way they need it to be use with a fixed delay like other races do.

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Does anyone know what YB tracker is using to show wind direction, it certainly doesn't seem to reflect strength at all? The arrows are pretty much the same for all boats, but Brunel is now moving over 4kn faster than the five leeward boats, and Scallywag is only marginally slower.!! This seems to confirm VOR news that wind would fill from the west. Seems strange that five navigators didn't perceive that with the software they all have??

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4 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

I've just used the Distance Measurement Tool on the VOR Tracker and the Seperation between Brunel in the East and MAPFRE in the West is about 9.56 Nautical Miles so I don't think the Spaniards can see them. It's only Leg 0 but if I were Xabi I'd be slightly concerned cuz if the Finishing Order in Lisbon is like it is now Brunel would win Leg 0 and not MAPFRE.

I think you've got them mixed up Brunel is leading in the WEST, Mapfre and the other five are to the EAST. Scallywag is currently most Westerly boat.  Going back to my previous question, the only explanation I can see right now is that five boats were too interested in positions relative to one another in the group that the navigators got ignored or were asleep!!

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Well, I could be wrong, but I thought that the range of AIS equipment was better than 10nm, depending on height above the water.  The transponder/receiver is I believe just above the stern transom, but I also understood that there is an aerial on the mast?

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Okay, the leeward pack is now faster than Brunel, not by a lot and their courses are much the same. As bucc5062 would say, weird!! Current? 

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37 minutes ago, DtM said:

Talking to yourself RS ?

No DtM, I've been having a chat with Alinghi4ever, and keeping anyone who is at work and doesn't have the time to check updated on positions. Just to fill in the time until those sworn to secrecy are able to say something about the eighth team, although I guess VOR will ultimately pre-empt that. It's also still a slow news day in Canada.

Plus I also enjoy watching Scallywag eat their dust!!!

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2 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

No DtM, I've been having a chat with Alinghi4ever, and keeping anyone who is at work and doesn't have the time to check updated on positions. Just to fill in the time until those sworn to secrecy are able to say something about the eighth team, although I guess VOR will ultimately pre-empt that. It's also still a slow news day in Canada.

Plus I also enjoy watching Scallywag eat their dust!!!

Amen to that!

While it looks like pressure will fill in from the west, those ahead could slightly reach up as they are below the route line.  Brunel has it's own personal patch it looks like for they are stepping out.  I don't think the navigators were sleeping.  I saw course changes at different times, maybe following their own pressure for a while, but staying more east paid off better.  It will interesting to see in the few hours how the lead pack plays the wind change, but it is not that anyone can make big course changes right now. 

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7 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Amen to that!

While it looks like pressure will fill in from the west, those ahead could slightly reach up as they are below the route line.  Brunel has it's own personal patch it looks like for they are stepping out.  I don't think the navigators were sleeping.  I saw course changes at different times, maybe following their own pressure for a while, but staying more east paid off better.  It will interesting to see in the few hours how the lead pack plays the wind change, but it is not that anyone can make big course changes right now. 

Hi bucc, well it's still early days (literally) but right now Charlie and Dee are currently the leading two boats, and everyone, including Scallywag is going to have to climb to get around Cape Finisterre. And Alinghi4ever is right, YB switched to hourly updates.

PS I was only trying to provoke comment writing about the navigators being asleep.

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Just now, Retired Sailor said:

Hi bucc, well it's still early days (literally) but right now Charlie and Dee are currently the leading two boats, and everyone, including Scallywag is going to have to climb to get around Cape Finisterre. And Alinghi4ever is right, YB switched to hourly updates.

PS I was only trying to provoke comment writing about the navigators being asleep.

Yeah, but with OD and such, people question the independence factor.  I say it is there, but by the same token, with these boats and crews, you guess wrong you are not coming back from a fall.  Scally may claw some time back, but only if some holes open again.  

A thought experiment.  Take these seven boats, send them off in staggered starts such that they cannot see each other on AIS.  Note the time of start, time of finish and let's see if anyone takes large different routes.  My guess is no.  Those east needs to start collecting back to Brunel, but so far we've had multiple lead changes so I'd say that even for "slow" boats, this is quite exciting.

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47 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Yeah, but with OD and such, people question the independence factor.

Hell, bucc, I've been a strong supporter of OD since I raced J24s in Long Island Sound almost 40 yrs ago, and once came second to a well known head of a sail loft. Fluke, but I sure felt good. Handicap racing, which I was forced to take up because the builder of my supposed future OD class went bankrupt, never really appealed.

Sometimes, beginning to be too many times now, this VOR is starting to be as exciting as watching grass grow or paint dry, although I'm reluctant to give it up because I like to see skill in action, question is whose skill?? Computers??

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Yes, and I wonder if Dongfeng and Mapfre will be joined at the hip the whole race :)

it is soon going to be time to shut the door on Scallywag.  They will gain some ground on that westerly build and it looks like angling towards Brunel and the line sets the rest to also get that building breeze.

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11 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

Hell, bucc, I've been a strong supporter of OD since I raced J24s in Long Island Sound almost 40 yrs ago, and once came second to a well known head of a sail loft. Fluke, but I sure felt good. Handicap racing, which I was forced to take up because the builder of my supposed future OD class went bankrupt, never really appealed.

Sometimes, beginning to be too many times now, this VOR is starting to be as exciting as watching grass grow or paint dry, although I'm reluctant to give it up because I like to see skill in action, question is whose skill?? Computers??

That is a third rail question for me these days....I'll punt.

Naaaa....Anecdotally, computers are taking over the sport as a whole.  Even as I love technology, I am no fan of a race won by design before a team even takes the water.  It seems if you race a box class, no handicap, then the choices made almost before the crew steps on board determine the race.  If you race a OD then the boat design plays less a factor to the crew, but folks complain that it becomes "boring" as they sail in a pack.  Unlike boring as they sail in a string along fairly well set routes.

The next issue is the routing software used and how much that, not AIS determines the Macro navigation.  Sure, I'll conceded that AIS will effect local decisions, but as this is one design, making a choice to go off on some hidden weather system is vastly unlikely as every other team see the same thing.  I've said before, take away software routing, period.  Route based on only weather reports.  Now you can take flyers, go with your gut.  With this format, 100 miles, excluding the doldrums, is a death knell to passing unless you really fuck up the boat.

It is what it is....some like it...others don't.  In the moment I'm happy to see three teams I support doing well. 

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So this is a wild idea, but Marine Traffic supports satellite AIS for ocean level positioning.  10 boats is @ $1500.  There is also an API that allows third party software to grab position and navigational data.

I wonder how many folks would be interested in setting up a separate tracker that is not beholding to VOR data.  I do not think they can stop AIS data as it is public or bought data.  Someone like forss could modify the tracker he created such that it gives updates every two minutes.

Really, every three hours is stupid. Maybe every one and since the data from the boat is much much more, this is not a bandwidth issue.  Maybe SA brings Forss on board, buy the basics and sponsors a VOR tracker that is 100% legit, but meets true sailing fans needs.

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

 I've said before, take away software routing, period.  Route based on only weather reports.  Now you can take flyers, go with your gut.  

In saying that you clearly have no idea about routing software and how it is utilised bucc.

At first load for a long leg you might be presented with hundreds of routing options. That gets distilled down over time with a navigators own weather interpretation skill, being the final determinator. They can't afford the time lag between published gribs so use amoungst other things virtually real time sat pics. That interpretive skill varies between navigators and is a key difference between being at the front or back of the bus.

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Just now, jack_sparrow said:

In saying that you clearly have no idea about routing software and how it is utilised bucc.

At first load for a long leg you might be presented with hundreds of routing options. That gets distilled down over time with a navigators own weather interpretation skill, being the final determinator. They can't afford the time lag between published gribs so use amoungst other things virtually real time sat pics. That interpretive skill varies between navigators and is a key difference between being at the front or back of the bus.

I will defer to your knowledge.  One fun thing this round is Remora, an open source routing software so in one way, a pleeb like me can play against the best.  It is limited, but a good learning tool at least.

https://remora.greatcircle.eu/map

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Hope Scallywag make up sometime they are way back. This could be a sign of things to come. They will have less time to recuperate in between legs if they lose distance to the leaders at this rate.

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2 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

It is what it is....some like it...others don't.  In the moment I'm happy to see three teams I support doing well. 

Well, I'm even happier that my two teams are doing better than two of your three teams!!!!!1

 

2 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

I watched the entire 14/15 Race with Tracker updates every 3 Hours. That was very exciting especially once it got closer to the Finish Line of each Leg. Insanely close racing :)

Biggest bummer for me was when I woke up one morning and read Dongfeng was dismasted. After that Leg they couldn't win the Overall Race anymore.

But how Charles & his Crew recovered the next Leg and win it was the most incredible moment for me.

 

2 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Retired Sailor,

The most memorable moment of the 14/15 Race though was the Auckland Finish with Mapfre, Abu Dhabi and Dongfeng so close the entire New Zealand coastline. I had to pull an All-Nighter to watch that one with some other folks here at SA Ocean Racing :D Most inconvinient time for an European I can tell you that and I was working that time the next Day.

I agree with both posts Alinghi4ever, I pulled several all-nighters too. I actually realized there was a problem with Vestas before VOR announced it because its position stayed fixed. But last race, I had no favorites, I only knew of one or two of the people.  This time I have people who I want to see do well, even though I don't know them personally. As I told bucc5062, my ancestry is supporting underdogs, and right now they are both one and two in this leg!! I have no intention of giving up on VOR, the withdrawal would be unbearable.

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2 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

So this is a wild idea, but Marine Traffic supports satellite AIS for ocean level positioning.  10 boats is @ $1500.  There is also an API that allows third party software to grab position and navigational data.

I wonder how many folks would be interested in setting up a separate tracker that is not beholding to VOR data.  I do not think they can stop AIS data as it is public or bought data.  Someone like forss could modify the tracker he created such that it gives updates every two minutes.

Really, every three hours is stupid. Maybe every one and since the data from the boat is much much more, this is not a bandwidth issue.  Maybe SA brings Forss on board, buy the basics and sponsors a VOR tracker that is 100% legit, but meets true sailing fans needs.

Hmmm, not such a wild idea.

Even the threat of it might be enough to force the VOR's hand.

I find it absolutely incredible that they intend persisting with the insane idea of 3 hour updates this round. I thought MT was listening to the fans at least a tiny bit. There is no reason at all to limit the updates this way.  The boats are not able to receive outside information, so it advantages them none, and all it does is annoy the fan base.

We could start a kickstarter project, or similar. Money back if the VOR caves in.

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24 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Hmmm, not such a wild idea.

Even the threat of it might be enough to force the VOR's hand.

I find it absolutely incredible that they intend persisting with the insane idea of 3 hour updates this round. I thought MT was listening to the fans at least a tiny bit. There is no reason at all to limit the updates this way.  The boats are not able to receive outside information, so it advantages them none, and all it does is annoy the fan base.

We could start a kickstarter project, or similar. Money back if the VOR caves in.

Do Pirates use AIS..? LOL

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5 hours ago, Alinghi4ever said:

I watched the entire 14/15 Race with Tracker updates every 3 Hours. That was very exciting especially once it got closer to the Finish Line of each Leg. Insanely close racing :)

Biggest bummer for me was when I woke up one morning and read Dongfeng was dismasted. After that Leg they couldn't win the Overall Race anymore.

But how Charles & his Crew recovered the next Leg and win it was the most incredible moment for me.

You are not alone Alinghi, especially as they were the surprise package up until then. But the way they buckled down. Shore team delayed to Ushuaia by a 24 hour Argentine air crew strike, the Chinese guys having to say on the boat for the motor sail up the coast because they couldn't get visas in time to get off the boat, another team refusing to sell their spare mast to DFRT meaning a mast had to be flown to Rio from Dubai via Schipol (halfway round the world) followed by a 650km road trip up to Itajai. Their result into Newport was a comeback worthy of Lazarus. I will never forget that part of the race - very emotional.

SS

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1 hour ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Hmmm, not such a wild idea.

Even the threat of it might be enough to force the VOR's hand.

I find it absolutely incredible that they intend persisting with the insane idea of 3 hour updates this round. I thought MT was listening to the fans at least a tiny bit. There is no reason at all to limit the updates this way.  The boats are not able to receive outside information, so it advantages them none, and all it does is annoy the fan base.

We could start a kickstarter project, or similar. Money back if the VOR caves in.

Would not work.  AIS is transceiver based from the boats.  VOR would just mandate that the team turn it off.  It is not required under current COLREGS.

The tracking supplied by Yb is controlled by Yb at the whim of whichever OA hires Yb.  For example Transpac mandates a delayed update until yachts reach the 100 NM check in at which point they become "live" 

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5 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

That is a third rail question for me these days....I'll punt.

Naaaa....Anecdotally, computers are taking over the sport as a whole.  Even as I love technology, I am no fan of a race won by design before a team even takes the water.  It seems if you race a box class, no handicap, then the choices made almost before the crew steps on board determine the race.  If you race a OD then the boat design plays less a factor to the crew, but folks complain that it becomes "boring" as they sail in a pack.  Unlike boring as they sail in a string along fairly well set routes.

The next issue is the routing software used and how much that, not AIS determines the Macro navigation.  Sure, I'll conceded that AIS will effect local decisions, but as this is one design, making a choice to go off on some hidden weather system is vastly unlikely as every other team see the same thing.  I've said before, take away software routing, period.  Route based on only weather reports.  Now you can take flyers, go with your gut.  With this format, 100 miles, excluding the doldrums, is a death knell to passing unless you really fuck up the boat.

It is what it is....some like it...others don't.  In the moment I'm happy to see three teams I support doing well. 

So right Bucc. 2 races back, just after Abu Dhabi had broken the Fastnet Race record, Ian Walker already knew he had a problem. In fact he is on record (In Seahorse no less) that without One Design the following race (or even sponsorship) would have been far more uncertain

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4 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Would not work.  AIS is transceiver based from the boats.  VOR would just mandate that the team turn it off.  It is not required under current COLREGS.

The tracking supplied by Yb is controlled by Yb at the whim of whichever OA hires Yb.  For example Transpac mandates a delayed update until yachts reach the 100 NM check in at which point they become "live" 

I think that the chances of the VOR having them turn the AIS off simply to prevent access by some of the fans is zero.  COLREGS or not, no AIS is a significant safety issue, and the risk of an at sea collision because a large ship can't see a VOR boat is not zero.  If such a collision did happen the inquiry and finger pointing would be at best "career limiting" for MT and may well sink the VOR as a race.

Imagine facing up to a marine accident enquiry and answering the question about why the AIS was turned off.  Boats were fitted with them, in previous races use was mandatory - so explain why it was so before, and not now? You can point to COLREGS all you like, MT's career would be over, and the VOR may well never run again.

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1 minute ago, Francis Vaughan said:

I think that chances of the VOR having them turn the AIS off simply to prevent access by some of the fans is zero.  COLREGS or not, no AIS is a significant safety issue, and the risk of an at sea collision because a large ship can't see a VOR boat is not zero.  If such a collision did happen the inquiry and finger pointing would be at best "career limiting" for MT and may well sink the VOR as a race.

If they were single handing you might have an argument.  But, they are fully crewed, which makes finger pointing to the VOR sailors being at fault very difficult.  COLREGS requires that all vessels man a constant watch.  Hard to do on a single hander, but a given on a fully crewed vessel, recreational or commercial.

If the VOR OA wants to control how their game is watched they will do so.

This is not like the good old days where we got once a day or even once a week updates. 

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3 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

Well, I'm even happier that my two teams are doing better than two of your three teams!!!!!1

 

 

I agree with both posts Alinghi4ever, I pulled several all-nighters too. I actually realized there was a problem with Vestas before VOR announced it because its position stayed fixed. But last race, I had no favorites, I only knew of one or two of the people.  This time I have people who I want to see do well, even though I don't know them personally. As I told bucc5062, my ancestry is supporting underdogs, and right now they are both one and two in this leg!! I have no intention of giving up on VOR, the withdrawal would be unbearable.

Sorry I only have one team for obvious reasons although there are a number of teams where I know some of the sailors on board.

Also a fan of Sam Greenfield who brought the race alive with his drone work and had to smile when I saw the Facebook video from a drone suggesting this was the future - perhaps but it started 3 years ago and Sam's presentation, alongside the Inmarsat VP, at the Auckland Prizegiving was absolutely awesome. Shame it could never reach youtube.

SS

 

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Not wishing to get into an extended argument, but there is a big difference between meeting the letter of the law/regulations and answering an enquiry when there has been a fatality.  The problem the VOR would face is that they previously mandated AIS. The current VOR rules still mandate AIS. They would not be explaining how they still met the letter of the law.  They would be explaining the manner in which they decided that what was once a mandatory safety requirement, as judged by them, was no longer a mandatory safety requirement, and why this change of designation was based not upon a careful review of the safety of the race, but upon a simple commercial decision designed to maintain control of information.

There is no useful way out of this. A marine accident enquiry is not going to just look at the regulations and say - "that's OK, off you go". Once there has been a fatality things get very very messy.  And the VOR and MT would have to endure the public nature of the accident.  The court of public opinion would not judge them kindly. Which is why it is quite possible such a situation may result in the Volvo deciding the VOR was over. A company with a major reputation for safety is not going to endure the spectacle of a fatality occurring because it decided to disable a once mandatory safety system for no better reason than to deny fans information.

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Wanting more than 3hr updates to watch 65' mono trucks go around...wanking on about AIS silent ...(go check VG SI's that have twice the closing speed)..marine enquiry etc...this thread is going to shit.

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I might be unpopular for saying this but we get what VOR give us. Note the word GIVE - it is very difficult to complain about something that we don't pay for.

There are many reasons I could think of for the 3 or 6 hour hit but the likes of the VOR survives on measurable metrics - that's at least one way they justify their existence as a cost centre to Volvo AB and Volvo Cars. If they encourage people to click on every 3, 6 or whatever hours to see the latest update the click count naturally goes up.

Add to that their "breaking news" at around the time of an update ceases to be 'breaking' because everyone has seen Team Whatever do their Crazy Ivan breakaway when it happened 1 hour 35 minutes before (or whenever with continuous updates) Another lost bunch of clicks.

I am also not sure if continuous updates out on the web would cause a cost increase to the VOR over 6 hourly or 3 hourly update - the tecky nerds in the thread would perhaps be able to tell us better.

Personally I am glad it wasn't (and won't be) continuous. It is already distracting enough from the day job with the frequency we have at the moment but maybe some have more time on their hands (or more discipline) than I do.

SS

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9 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Hope Scallywag make up sometime they are way back. This could be a sign of things to come. They will have less time to recuperate in between legs if they lose distance to the leaders at this rate.

Thats how the've decided to race at the moment, so they get everything they deserve for their choice.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Wanting more than 3hr updates to watch 65' mono trucks go around...wanking on about AIS silent ...(go check VG SI's that have twice the closing speed)..marine enquiry etc...this thread is going to shit.

Hallelujah.

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Just now, Alinghi4ever said:

Question and suggestion to all VOR Fans: Does anyone know who operates the YB Tracker? I'm inclined to make a Donation to these folks who are helping us Fans out with their work. I know that Tracker is far from perfect BUT it's good for us. Instead having to wait 6 Hours for the next Position Update from VOR Race Control they are giving us hourly updates. Maybe if we all sent them a small donation they could keep this thing going when the "Actual Race" starts Oct. 22, no?

What do you all think?

Go to the YB tracker website and send them the question? You can only try and they can only say no?

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59 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Question and suggestion to all VOR Fans: Does anyone know who operates the YB Tracker? I'm inclined to make a Donation to these folks who are helping us Fans out with their work. I know that Tracker is far from perfect BUT it's good for us. Instead having to wait 6 Hours for the next Position Update from VOR Race Control they are giving us hourly updates. Maybe if we all sent them a small donation they could keep this thing going when the "Actual Race" starts Oct. 22, no?

What do you all think?

YB charge to view the tracker on a mobile device (phone/tablet) but provide free tracker to desktop, they also charge VOR for the use of the trackers

YB do not need a donation

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7 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Would not work.  AIS is transceiver based from the boats.  VOR would just mandate that the team turn it off.  It is not required under current COLREGS.

The tracking supplied by Yb is controlled by Yb at the whim of whichever OA hires Yb.  For example Transpac mandates a delayed update until yachts reach the 100 NM check in at which point they become "live" 

On the other hand we don't know if it would, but unfortunately the cost of testing is $1500 plus API.  AIS is not owned by VOR, they use it just as the rest of the world.  To mandate turning it off would not set a good precedence.  Also, do they have other tracking instruments outside of AIS?  If not then they could not track their own boats internally or on a tracker.  No, I think they use AIS as the basic feed into their trackers.  Marine Traffic sells the ability to access AIS from satellite tracking so VOR could not stop a outside person from tracking them around the world.  Consider that right now, for $12 a month I can track all 7 boats when they are close enough to land.  That does not hurt me going to their site for the drama.   

7 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

If they were single handing you might have an argument.  But, they are fully crewed, which makes finger pointing to the VOR sailors being at fault very difficult.  COLREGS requires that all vessels man a constant watch.

I seem to remember a US Naval destroyer slamming into the side of a merchant vessel.  Talk about fully crewed.
 

1 hour ago, shanghaisailor said:

I am also not sure if continuous updates out on the web would cause a cost increase to the VOR over 6 hourly or 3 hourly update - the tecky nerds in the thread would perhaps be able to tell us better.

Personally I am glad it wasn't (and won't be) continuous. It is already distracting enough from the day job with the frequency we have at the moment but maybe some have more time on their hands (or more discipline) than I do.

SS

There is no extra technological cost from updating the tracker every 5 minutes to every 3 hours.  It is just a database hit at that point and the data can be cached from multiple website hits.

One issue with such large gaps is that if you miss one, then you wait that much more to see progress and in a 6 hour time frame, things can change.

I did not cut my teeth on past VOR other than 14/15.  What I experienced in that event, just like this one now is that as these boats are so closely matched, changes don't always happen between long gaps, but at any moment when the boat makes a change due to local weather or other "things".  I follow the VG and after a while it was easy to accept a 3 or 6 hour update, because after a while, you are just checking to see if your boat is still moving, because you know it won't make up 500 or 600 miles of gap.

Last race we had boats finishing minutes, not hours apart, and as I remember, a number of folks here clamoured for continuous tracking when they got close to shore.  In this race, what is the difference between a tight race 100 miles from the end, and a tight race in the middle of the SO.  With a quicker update, maybe 30 minutes, people can check when they are able, some more, some less.  More updates means more interest, which means more support.

If I had expendable capital there is no question I'd do this as a challenge to VOR.  Other than turning off AIS, which would not be smart, they could either improve their site or accept competition, which is how capitalism is suppose to work.  Forss built an incredible tracker last round and it would not have cost VOR much to merge it into their own site, increase updates and let the desktop skippers play.  Bottom line, VOR Sucks at social media marketing.

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14 minutes ago, Rushman said:

YB charge to view the tracker on a mobile device (phone/tablet) but provide free tracker to desktop, they also charge VOR for the use of the trackers

YB do not need a donation

Double check on that statement.  I am running YB off my android LG and I did not pay for it.  They do maybe charge for more than the basic service.

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So it would seem that Scallywag decided to go outside the TSS?  That's gotta hurt, because it looks like over time, the better pressure stays closer to shore, favoring all inside teams.  It will be interesting to watch of TToP can find the right gear in slightly heavier air.  I've seen them gain back miles, but has their back and forth been playing with sail configurations, still slightly cautious sailing at times for they can slam the pedal down at times.

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What you do miss with 3/6 hours updates....

Dee was slightly trailing the fleet, just behind Akzo.  They turned slightly starboard, increased speed, passed AK and Vestas.  DF bore slightly off, as did Mapfre so curious if TToP wants that little more westerly position for it's has done well for Mapfre?

No, I can't watch that all the time, but with such tight racing, moments like these do draw you in for a bit.

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There's no need to turn off AIS. AIS is BVR, but not much more than 15-20nm and with class B transmission probably less. Teams on an ocean course won't benefit particularly much if there's serious concerns about cheating (E.g. Someone sneaking an Iridium device registered to anonymous someone else and getting texts of other boat conditions very covertly in their bunk or at the head) - one place where VOR cams won't be watching. 

VOR doesn't use AIS to provide race control tracking. The boats maintain a live feed via satellite connections and gives VOR ability to even watch the boats remotely without the onboard reporter. 

 

Looking at the public tracker, I think it is summarising data well. 4hr summaries give better sense of how the boat is being sailed - averages out surfs/gusts/wind shift that everyone has to navigate. Problem with the 15 minute is it gives false sense of reality because the instant reading captures a random data point. Also doesn't track course changes very well because software draws straight line. 

 

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30 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Double check on that statement.  I am running YB off my android LG and I did not pay for it.  They do maybe charge for more than the basic service.

iPhone and iPad do not display the YB tracker, maybe other tablets don't show up as a mobile device (lucky you)

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2 minutes ago, Miffy said:

There's no need to turn off AIS. AIS is BVR, but not much more than 15-20nm and with class B transmission probably less. Teams on an ocean course won't benefit particularly much if there's serious concerns about cheating (E.g. Someone sneaking an Iridium Go registered to anonymous someone else and getting texts of other boat conditions very covertly in their bunk or at the head) - one place where VOR cams won't be watching. 

VOR doesn't use AIS to provide race control tracking. The boats maintain a live feed via satellite connections and gives VOR ability to even watch the boats remotely without the onboard reporter. 

 

There ya go then.  So all that traffic one can see way off shore, that's not AIS?  MarineTraffic puts it this way
 

Quote

Track any fleet around the globe using Satellite AIS data, which is seamlessly fused with our coastal data. This powerful combination gives a unique presentation of the global maritime traffic and provides position report updates for the global merchant fleet even when in deep sea and remote areas. Having partnered with Orbcomm, the leading Satellite AIS provider, we leverage the next generation OG2 satellites and provide position updates with latency as low as a few minutes for mid-ocean voyages.

You would know, for sure, but looking at the AIS Requirements,

Class A A self-propelled vessel of 65 feet or more in length, engaged in commercial service.
(2) AIS Class B device. (B) Do not operate at speeds in excess of 14 knots; and...

Those two would seem to define a VO65 as class A, since this race is not an amatuer event and they boats are sailed by professionals.

 I can see that VOR would use two channels for position reporting, one that is mainly proprietary to them, the other third party.  Interesting stuff.

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