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They have a controlling interest in a public company, that is as common as. It is not private, it is not self funded and there is a myriad of third party interests, some secured some not. Point was I answered your question about Lee bankrolling it out of his own pocket, which he clearly isn't. 

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Just reading through the forums after a week or so in Germany, and wanted to add some thoughts.

a) Leg 0 was probably not designed to draw fans in, but as a method of testing VOR systems and ironing bugs prior to the real thing. Mark Turner specifically commented on testing all their systems during this few weeks; including comms, emergency ops, race direction, etc. However, I can see that it is already showing the characters of the teams and their style.

b ) Links to videos and diaries have previously been on VOR trackers. It is only new on YB, but for some reason was not on the last VOR tracker...but then that was horrible in general. If I remember correctly they first did this when they brought out the 3D tracker (2005?).  I don't understand why every race tracker does not do this, but I assume there is a degree of manual input and editing required to ensure there is not a huge amount of clutter.

c) Raw footage. Looking at the TTTOP twitter feed it seems there is raw stuff coming off the boats, done by the crews rather than the OBR.  This could mean good, raw unedited stuff as well as the polished professional stuff.  Good decision by the Comms team if so. It also seems that just going to the VOR website get you the OBR stuff and some links.  I am hoping there will be a content 'aggregator' that can show where the latest online info is: Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Team websites, YouTube, VOR website, news website articles, and interviews. The best place for all of this last time was this forum for sure, but must be bloody hard to find it all...or I am just getting old.

d) Sails - speaking to Dee before the start she had chosen to go with her new sails, as what they really need is accurate polars (rather than designer VPPs) and the distance sailed on the Leg 0 is negligible compared to the actual VOR.  DFRT and Akzo (don't know about the others) have a set of sails for this year, and then a set for the race; but I guess that is what time and funds will get you. Others are using sails from the previous edition for training.

e) YB tracker - If you are on a mobile device and have not downloaded the app then, when it says you need the app, select the webpage menu and choose 'Request desktop site'. This is a free work around, but is definitely harder to use than the app. Leg 0 was free on Android App, but I was more than happy to pay the 0.99 for the Fastnet.

I have a very full time job, and anything more than 3 hour position reports would just kill me over the next 10 months...but I also hate it when I press refresh and there has not been an update  (despite it only being 5 minutes since I last looked)...

f)Witty - Everyone I have spoken to on the dock says he is an excellent high winds down wind driver. The crew he has are all good, and skilled, and professional.  Parko and Jules are both serious talents. They all seemed really friendly and helpful on the dock in Gosport. Witty's comments about a 'social experiment' are Witty's, and really should not be taken as the attitude of the rest of the crew. I have already noticed how he is rowing back on that, and has mentioned in interviews how 'we may have to look at the number', or 'in our light airs crew configuration'. I would not be surprised to see women on board at some point, and I do not think it would be as bad as this forum is making out...possibly better than some of the other crews.


Anyway, my thoughts, and no doubt I am wrong about some of them.  Personally I love the 70s, would love to see a design battle, but truly believe that without the One Design the VOR would be dead.  

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^^^^^ Great post Potter...such a relief reading that instead of the inane crap Bucc and Retired keep punching up from their couches. Their endless shit just makes people stay away from this thread.

The Witt/Scallywag tour I am hoping will find a gear. They are the closest to the first Australian entry in this gig since inception 40 years ago, despite providing big slabs of talent to this race over that period. I suspect the Melbourne pitstop was a condition of their entry. If they don't deliver this time around it does not auger well for anyone else to step up from down there.

...and yes like you I miss the 70's...great machines and great to see a lot of them still going wild.

 

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10 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

I for one think that Leg Zero was, in fact, a very good lead up to the next VOR race.  For the first time, to my knowledge, the majority of the teams got to face off against one another in racing conditions, and quite varied conditions at that. It showed some teams good from the start boat on boat and other teams improving boat on boat as Leg Zero progressed. Looking good for October, and many teams are still selecting their crew, and I include Scallywag in that group.

SS, I don't think we needed your clarification re Malaysian or Chinese. The forthcoming race is about skippers and crews, not the nationality or location of their sponsors.

Sorry Retired Sailor but if you are Chinese and not Malaysian it needs clarification. just correcting Jack Sparrow - see next post

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7 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Not quite right SS. Sponsor and it's parent company are Chinese started by the Chairman's father who is Malaysian. Family has lived in HK last 30 years. A few years ago Dad spent a year in the big house in HK for falsifying accounts in early 90's. 

Actually Jack there is NO financial link between Sun Hung Kai Properties & Sun Hung Kai & Co although they do share a heritage. You are correct however that daddy did serve time for 'financial irregularities' :-)

And actually RS, the route of the race is to a large degree down to the nationality of the sponsors. Sure there are some stopovers that are almost 'traditional' or what some people might call iconic (much overused word that) but do you think Dongfeng would be in the mix without a Mainland Chinese stopover, or the Hong Kong stop might just perhaps have convinced Lee Seng Huang to fork out some brass on a team, or the Hague suits Akzonobel and Brunel and a start in Alicante must surely have made it easier for Pedro Campos to convince Telfonica and now Mapfre to sponsor a team? And don't forget the long trip north in the Indian Ocean to visit Abu Dhabi, or Auckland for the Kiwi teams (OK that is now a GENUINELY iconic stop admittedly)

So in actual fact the location and nationality of the sponsors has had quite an influence on the race over the years.

SS

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22 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Actually Jack there is NO financial link between Sun Hung Kai Properties & Sun Hung Kai & Co although they do share a heritage.

SS you may need to revisit that. I have worked for them so pretty well understand their family/ corporate tree going back to the 80's. 

So in actual fact the location and nationality of the sponsors has had quite an influence on the race over the years.

SS

Absolutely...in Scallywag case this time around very strong connections to Oz up until late 80's when Dad had to leave town but the kid and now Chairman spent time there and he hasn't forgotten plus still has big investments there. That equaled Melbourne getting a pitstop.  

Actually I'm starting to think Witty is hoping for a quick trip to Melbourne then the boys step on board the 100 footer with its new keel for S2H...that would be epic.

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http://sailinganarchy.com/2017/08/17/lucky-number-8/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 8/3/2017 at 1:19 PM, bucc5062 said:

While the VO70 had moments of more raw power and speed, in doing a quick google search there is not strong evidence that overall performance was that much greater than the VO65 so I'm wondering what you mean by truck?  A VO65 broke a round Britain record set by a VO70.  If I find it I'll update, but I remember reading someone involved with the VOR stated the speed differences between the VO65 and the VO70 was only around 15% so I could see the comparison more like NASCARS Sprint Series (VO70) to the Xfinity Series (VO65).  


Perhaps the deeper point is that while fast(er) may be cool, you ultimately have to finish the race and other than piling a VO65 on a reef (not the boat's fault), all boats that started finished, including DF with a mast swap.

So they are overall not that dissimilar in speeds with the nod to the raw power the 70 could carry, but the fragility of the 70 did take crew handling even slightly more out of the equation simply because...they broke.  Besides, none of these boats are planing or going ludicrous speed all the time so crew handling still plays a factor in both.  I tend to lean on the idea that making it so the boat would be hard to break (look what DF had to do to break a mast), crew handling from skipper on down is that more important on winning.

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Sweet.  However I'll curb my enthusiasm till something more official is presented.  This is going to be one steep learning curve for anyone getting on board.  And looky that, this stuff trickles out after the end of leg zero.  Who'd a guessed it.
 

Quote

We’re also hearing that one of the existing skippers may be looking for a new job soon. 

Could it happen to be on a boat that has not been performing well?  Six of the boats have shown overall positive growth and positive attitude.  They also embraced the notion and benefit of a mixed crew which has seemed to help, not hinder performance.  I am hard pressed to imagine any of those six jumping ship and if the seventh is getting the boot, it would hard to see the alleged 8th boat picking him up.

8 boats for in-port racing will be fun to watch.
 

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20 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

I don't think you understand the dynamic between Witt and his sponsor. They are personal friends who have sailed together for a reasonably long time. Paying for Witty to do the Volvo is petty cash for Lee and is about a friend helping another to realise his dream. I think he could end up last in every leg and it wouldn't sour the relationship between them. As for his results to date, it's not a surprise. Wait until we see some big wind sailing. I doubt he will be as quick a the leaders, but I would bet in those conditions he will look far better than he is looking now. The biggest issue he will face is the lack of crew. 7 is not enough to sail one of these boats on big offshore legs. He needs to see how he gets on in a Doldrums situation where you might go a couple of days with urgent sail changes every hour. At some point he will realise that he needs 2 women, but is biggest challenge will be to find any woman good enough who will put up with his misogynistic views. 

Agreed, the atmosphere on the boat could be rather toxic for any female members of crew that decide to join the program. And he has exactly endeared himself to women sailors with his attitude. 

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1 hour ago, southerncross said:

British entry, nice.  

Tantalizing, pity my earlier speculation doesn't quite work time wise, Cardiff as a stopover was announced months ago, but it sure added pressure for a GBR sponsor(s).

6 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

So in actual fact the location and nationality of the sponsors has had quite an influence on the race over the years.

I take your point about the influence on stopovers, but in terms of Scallywag, to the best of my knowledge none of the crew are currently Malaysian or Chinese. If Scallywag had the same objectives and representation as Dongfeng, then it would definitely matter. I happen to remember a post months ago when someone in Hong Kong doubted whether any crew would actually be from Hong Kong.  I think you know why that would matter to me.

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On 01/08/2017 at 7:00 PM, jack_sparrow said:

Just heard through the grapevine #8 will be a starter subject to sign off in a month or so.

Oh ye of little faith

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Great opportunity for all you eggheads on the list.  The video does not quite capture the nature of the job, but I guess watching an engineer figuring out a wiring issue on the dry is not as exciting.

 

JOB ALERT! WE ARE STILL LOOKING FOR SHORE CREW / ENGINEER! Fast forward your career with a variety of jobs, starting as a shore crew engineer on the Volvo Ocean Race. Apply at http://bit.ly/vor-yourfirstjobatbrunel-fb


https://www.facebook.com/brunelsailing/?hc_ref=ARS6njnku50JJn20BDW-JxNkxIXaScvqay8vI-3yoM5x_qK2hkoVurQ7cVgt1WMDyds&fref=nf

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Libby Greenhalgh also had something to say about the tracker:

Quote

Question @volvooceanrace in this day and age where you clearly have live updates are you still going to limit the times for the public?

 

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10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Actually I'm starting to think Witty is hoping for a quick trip to Melbourne then the boys step on board the 100 footer with its new keel for S2H...that would be epic.

That would be cool but do you think they would have any energy left after the trip from Capetown. Then of course they would be knackered for the leg to their home port

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1 hour ago, Chasm said:

Libby Greenhalgh also had something to say about the tracker:

Thanks for posting the 'tweet' or whatever it's called. And, hopefully, if Libby is still interested in VOR rather than her own forecasting business, and if a GBR sail number team materializes, then maybe she gets a berth. She/Sam did pick two very favorable splits in the last race, one of which they won.  Brunel just happened to make the best of the first split until they jibed east en route to Auckland. 

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Maybe Whitty could ask Liz Wardley, but maybe she is still dark about their Melbourne Osaka fiasco

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24 minutes ago, knob said:

Maybe Whitty could ask Liz Wardley, but maybe she is still dark about their Melbourne Osaka fiasco

As someone already posted Liz Wardley has a berth, on TToP. And to cap it off, she's probably too much for you know who to handle.

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2 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

As someone already posted Liz Wardley has a berth, on TToP. And to cap it off, she's probably too much for you know who to handle.

Me thinks there is some hidden drama in knob's statement, like, Witt and Liz have history and knob here does not want to dish the dirt...unless prompted too.

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Why should Liz switch over from TTT?
She is one of 4 adults (as Dee says) on TTT. Chances are that that comes quite a bit of additional responsibility beyond her nominal Boat Captain and FixIt role. This is the 3rd round for her, last with Amer Sports Too and second to last with SCA. TTT has chances to do better than that, Scallywag not so much. TTT is supposed to be a full edition ticket for the over 30, Scallywag could turn out to be another season of NEXT.

Sam Davis is IMOCA sailing for Initiatives Coeur.
Sally Barkow and Elodie Mettraux are on the M32 WMRT 
Sara Hastreiter is also in Russia for some reason.
Justine Mettraux seems to be Figaro sailing.
That leaves Libby Greenhalgh. Team 8/UK? 

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18 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

They have a controlling interest in a public company, that is as common as. It is not private, it is not self funded and there is a myriad of third party interests, some secured some not. Point was I answered your question about Lee bankrolling it out of his own pocket, which he clearly isn't. 

I believe you are mistaken on that score. I was told by one of Witty's Sydney based crew that Lee is bankrolling it himself and that the company name is being used for tax purposes and marketing. He is using a similar model as Ellison used with the AC where he put up his own money but used the name of Oracle.

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1 hour ago, btime said:

& Jo Aleh

I could be mistaken, I often am, for someone more famous, but I thought Jo Aleh was already on a trial roster???

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Does anyone here actually know any of the people you are talking about, ie met them, sailed with them etc.? I'm not talking about heard him/her in the bar after the race, my mate sailed with him/her. Or are the opinions of said people (wanker, fwit) based on forums like this, pr, what they've actually said?

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Boat 8   ....   Adrienne Cahalan  B)

Wikipedia

Adrienne Cahalan was the only woman competing in the 2005–06 Volvo Ocean Race. She is a qualified lawyer and had a master's degree in Applied Meteorology. Adrienne grew up on the Lane Cove River in Australia. 

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16 minutes ago, xsailmakerSYD said:

Boat 8   ....   Adrienne Cahalan  B)

Wikipedia

Adrienne Cahalan was the only woman competing in the 2005–06 Volvo Ocean Race. She is a qualified lawyer and had a master's degree in Applied Meteorology. Adrienne grew up on the Lane Cove River in Australia. 

Is that a guess or a wish.  Not much on the Wiki, but it would seem she has the chops.  

At least VOR or CLEAN has us all back clicking to play "who skippers boat number 8".  What do we got, 65 days left?  They better not play games for long for that team really needs some ocean time then some sparing time before they take the line in Oct.  If there is a boat 8, there are still some SCA sailors that may love a go at the VOR again so my safe guess is if they build a team, it will be mixed. 

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Adrienne would be nice, especially given her history with the VOR, but I really doubt she would be up for it now. I'm really hoping it is Libby Greenhalgh. She is one of the few that could step onto the boat and be up to speed right away.

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Again a last minute entry for Nicholson, if the rumor is true. Let's hope it goes better than last time.

It would be nice to have Libby Greenhalgh back, but I guess I am still hoping she will show up at Turn the Tide. For Nico, I guess with that little time left on the clock he needs someone he has worked with before. Would Will Oxley be up for it? He ticks a lot of boxes in my book.

Any suggestions for fast drivers (male/female) that may still be in the market to join this team?

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Will Oxley would be perfect.  But he might feel he has done his time. But no doubt, he ticks pretty much every box. You would have to imagine that he has been the recipient of more than a few phone calls by now.

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No way Adrienne will go again...she is now in relaxed part time navigator mode. I reakon Will would contemplate another run around the orange on the proviso it was a strong team with more than a reasonable chance. However he may already be committed for some other stuff. The strong teams already have skipper/nav relationships hence  why he is not already there. Don't discount Wouter (who's unfortunate legacy to us all is not to forget about zooming digital charts) even with Nico as he is no slouch in the weather department, however I'm not too sure of his availability/committments.

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4 hours ago, Zander said:

Again a last minute entry for Nicholson, if the rumor is true. Let's hope it goes better than last time.

It would be nice to have Libby Greenhalgh back, but I guess I am still hoping she will show up at Turn the Tide. For Nico, I guess with that little time left on the clock he needs someone he has worked with before. Would Will Oxley be up for it? He ticks a lot of boxes in my book.

Any suggestions for fast drivers (male/female) that may still be in the market to join this team?

Nicho said no, but GBR talk seems solid.  Alistair Richardson to skipper?

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11 hours ago, Chasm said:

Sam Davis is IMOCA sailing for Initiatives Coeur.
Sally Barkow and Elodie Mettraux are on the M32 WMRT 
Sara Hastreiter is also in Russia for some reason.
Justine Mettraux seems to be Figaro sailing.
That leaves Libby Greenhalgh. Team 8/UK? 

Sara is in Russia climbing mountains, and prepping for Everest.

There is also Stacey Jackson, currently on Alive I think. Abby Ehler is currently on Vestas, but was not committed at the start of the Fastnet.

Cecile Laguette is Figaro sailing but could be available I believe.

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Cecile is such a badass.  Can't wait to see her get to the Vendee.  

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26 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Your two heads are spinning mightily. Sir Ben ain't going to a VOR...no way. There would be no benefits doing that because he would come in last or second to last on every Leg. Too late in the Game to put a credible VOR Challenge/Team forward. Their Boat would be the former SCA Boat which was the slowest boat in the 14/15 Race. BAR needs everybody on deck when the new AC Protocol is released.

 

You keep repeating the absurd notion, which even former SCA members won't support, that their boat was slower. 

Please - just stop. 

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6 minutes ago, Herman said:

 

That guy running an open software program is me actually. Volodia built the universal tracker and created the first VO65 polars from the TWA/TWS data available from the first legs. Later on, VOR twitterd a picture of their polars. I used both to build a third version, and used these with OpenCPN for ad hoc weather routing in the last edition. See the old leg threads. I'm planning to do ad hoc weather routing for the current edition too.

If someone wants the VO65 mark 1 polars, send me a pm. Don't expect an instant reply, as I'm on holiday in Indonesia.

But we could also ask VOR nicely for the polars, being OD has the big advantage that the polars are no strategic assets like in the VG.

 

 

 

PM sent.

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22 minutes ago, Miffy said:

 

You keep repeating the absurd notion, which even former SCA members won't support, that their boat was slower. 

Please - just stop. 

I have to agree with this point.  If it was slow, it was inexperience at the start and the time it took to get better.  When you look at their dash across Biscay bay I'd say they were plenty fast.  OD means OD, what you do with it tells the tale.

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On ‎17‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 11:33 AM, Retired Sailor said:

I happen to remember a post months ago when someone in Hong Kong doubted whether any crew would actually be from Hong Kong.

I need to acknowledge an error in my previous post responding to SS concerning nationalities and Scallywag. Scallywag actually does have a Hong Kong sailor listed, Tiger Mok.  He will reportedly do some legs and act as reserve navigator.

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34 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Look at the other longer Offshore Legs in 2014/15 though bucc. SCA was good at the beginning for a few Days early the Legs and then fell off a cliff.

Apply your sailing knowledge and think critically for a moment. If your boat matches speed well with others during in port events, and able to maintain contact early on but struggle with maintaining pace once there's separation or later on - what does that tell you? Your antifoul isn't working? 

This isn't America's Cup - the VOR authority systematically stripped and rebuilt every boat. Identically - binned, examined, rebuilt every part - if there was some inherent issue with the boat, you think the boatshed folks wouldn't have known? Liz Wardley was one of the involved in the boatshed process from the moment SCA turned its boat in to when new boat 8 was fitted. There's no conspiracy re slow boat.
 

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1 hour ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Look at the other longer Offshore Legs in 2014/15 though bucc. SCA was good at the beginning for a few Days early the Legs and then fell off a cliff.

Then they'd find their speed match for a bit, but be in a different wx.  As I remember, they podiumed with the in-port races so I'd say they didn't have a "slower" boat, but showed where their skills were strongest.  Whoever gets 8 will not be able to blame performance on the boat.  Depending on who crews, they may do really well.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Mok has had some experience driving Frank Pong's TP52 so he might also get some wheel time.

Thanks Jack, I still know people in the sailing community in Hong Kong, but I'm a bit out of touch with whose doing what these days. I think that people perhaps underestimate how far sailboat racing has developed in HK and in the region generally since Chinese ownership (i.e. boat owners) started to take off in the mid 1970s.  Prior to that racing sailboats was mainly expats (dinghies, Dragons and larger offshore China Sea Race boats) with some Chinese crew.

However, I thought Scallywag's crew position description was a trifle vague, and I couldn't get much info on Tiger. If he gets to drive, then great.

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11 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

Then they'd find their speed match for a bit, but be in a different wx.  As I remember, they podiumed with the in-port races so I'd say they didn't have a "slower" boat, but showed where their skills were strongest.  Whoever gets 8 will not be able to blame performance on the boat.  Depending on who crews, they may do really well.

they definately benefited from having more crew so they could do maneuvers faster, in the in-port races. All other speed differences probably comes down to navigation, trim, etc. We saw interesting trim differences in the last edition. 

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15 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Mok has had some experience driving Frank Pong's TP52 so he might also get some wheel time.

Tiger has been sailing all sorts of boats, only one of them being the TP52. I sailed with him quite a bit and he is a damn good sailor. He also has no ego and is quick to laugh so I'm sure he will become a valuable part of the team.

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6 hours ago, Terrorvision said:

Tiger has been sailing all sorts of boats, only one of them being the TP52. I sailed with him quite a bit and he is a damn good sailor. He also has no ego and is quick to laugh so I'm sure he will become a valuable part of the team.

Thanks Terrorvision, always good to have some personal insight on crew members.

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4 hours ago, southerncross said:

Did we miss this?  Posted several months ago.

Well, I certainly did, which is probably not surprising.  And they both made it on Vestas 11th Hour Racing!

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My recollection of SCAs problems last time was that they would take risks, and sometimes they would pan out, but they did it too much and would always lose out by mid-leg.

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Yeah, they weren't pushing it.  

Great discussion and nice to see they not only came back, but are sailing on mixed teams.

Capturea.jpg

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1 hour ago, nroose said:

My recollection of SCAs problems last time was that they would take risks, and sometimes they would pan out, but they did it too much and would always lose out by mid-leg.

Well, SCA performance is well worked over ground (old news) and has been discussed ad infinitum in this and the previous race forum. However, I suggest that you re-read your post, because it is not only self contradictory, it is also incorrect. Example, on the leg to Lorient, they made bold well informed (not risky) decisions, and they won, they did not lose out "by mid leg", in fact, if I am not mistaken, they led almost the entire way from Lisbon..

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On 8/18/2017 at 0:49 PM, Alinghi4ever said:

Look at the other longer Offshore Legs in 2014/15 though bucc. SCA was good at the beginning for a few Days early the Legs and then fell off a cliff.

Which doesn't help your theory that it was the boat itself that was the problem. If the boat was slow, it was just as slow at the start of the legs.

It was the lack of experience. The expertise on SCA was heavily weighted toward people who had either a) competitive one-design experience (worlds, olympics) but very little or no extended offshore experience, or b, lots of offshore experience (but in short-handed, rather than fully-crewed, context) but very little competitive one-design experience. That allowed them to do fairly well at the beginning of the longer legs when their short-course experience was in-play, but inevitably they would fall off the pace when they lost direct contact and dealt with lots of mode switches and the general grind of keeping competitive for weeks at a time. I've mentioned previously that I suspect part of that was Sam's skippering style, where she wasn't used to or comfortable with pushing a team for peak performance over a span of weeks. I'm not as sure about that part; it's just speculation. But it would be part of the "lack of experience" factor if true.

Either way, it wasn't the boat.

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I can’t quite belief I am joining the “what went wrong for SCA debate”, and I fear I will kick myself for doing it. But…

As I recall there was a general sort of consensus (supported by an interview that Cleano did with Dee Caffari  during leg 2 or 3) that the general lack of racing this type of boat in a race like the Volvo among the crew meant that they made more small errors and had some boat speed issues. This compounded to being slightly slower when measured over the course of multiple days. As a result SCA tried to find some leverage, sailed more distance and took more routing risks. Unfortunately for them, this means you end up betting against 5/6 very well sailed and routed boats. So, you are simply not going to get lucky that often.

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7 hours ago, Retired Sailor said:

Well, SCA performance is well worked over ground (old news) and has been discussed ad infinitum in this and the previous race forum. However, I suggest that you re-read your post, because it is not only self contradictory, it is also incorrect. Example, on the leg to Lorient, they made bold well informed (not risky) decisions, and they won, they did not lose out "by mid leg", in fact, if I am not mistaken, they led almost the entire way from Lisbon..

In my experience, much of sailing involves risk/reward decisions, and if you take too many risks, you are courageous, but your results become very erratic. I didn't mean to suggest that they were poorly informed, but that they took risks that others didn't. It did benefit them sometimes, but not all the time. Informed and risky are not mutually exclusive. I was not on board, and I don't have the data they had. I don't even have any stats. It just seemed to me that they were often taking a different line.

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It is not that technical ...unfortunately for all but one leg the girls were at the back of the bus soon after the start and soon after that in a different weather pattern than everyone else. Their only option was to use what was in front of them and had nothing to do with taking flyers. The SO in particular rewards those in front as the lows come bowling eastward. The one race they excelled was a combination of a bit of luck and that leg being in Sam's backyard, particularly knowing the tide like the back of her hand. And they are lighter than others at race end on account of the seat on the shitter was nearly worn through. :-)

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10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

And they are lighter than others at race end on account of the seat on the shitter was nearly worn through.

Well, I for one am not going back to the theme of "what was wrong with SCA", particularly after Jack's coarse (i.e. crass) remark. However, in my opinion, it emphasizes the challenge that Dee has taken on, particularly because of her commitment to recruiting under 30 crew. Since we, or at least I, do not know who she has on her roster other than the Fastnet crew list, I at least, have no objective perspective of whether her challenge is akin to climbing Everest without many of the usually required resources, or just the task of melding skilled climbers (sailors) into a successful team. Success not being judged by winning per se, but what they get to achieve personally and as a team.

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27 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

Well, I for one am not going back to the theme of "what was wrong with SCA", particularly after Jack's coarse (i.e. crass) remark. However, in my opinion, it emphasizes the challenge that Dee has taken on, particularly because of her commitment to recruiting under 30 crew. Since we, or at least I, do not know who she has on her roster other than the Fastnet crew list, I at least, have no objective perspective of whether her challenge is akin to climbing Everest without many of the usually required resources, or just the task of melding skilled climbers (sailors) into a successful team. Success not being judged by winning per se, but what they get to achieve personally and as a team.

When we were able to watch TToP in the shorter tracker intervals of both Fastnet and all but the end of leg 0, Dee was putting on a good showing, even with a green crew.  She has a strong after guard and given that they were leading at one point in the last leg, I think she's building from both the SCA experience and getting strong talent as well.  Magenta has done a lot to keep focus on women active in sailing at the top of the sport.  Dee has/has talent to pick from, talent that maybe was not as strong at the time of SCA.

The same with Akzo.  Reading their posts, they are applying a methodical test program such that when they hit the line on leg one, they will be comfortable with shifting gears, it may be more the reality of the legs that will take time for them to adjust and adapt.  All the teams are starting from a better position than SCA had and seeing how close leg 0 was competed, it may get tighter as the legs progress.

I liked Abby's viewpoint that by mixing the crews, less experienced sailors will benefit from sailing old salts.  They then take that with them and eventually there may be a time when an all woman team will be built and all of them will have had VOR and/or blue water racing experience.  Phil sounded like he would fit right in on Scallywag.

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2 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

I liked Abby's viewpoint that by mixing the crews, less experienced sailors will benefit from sailing old salts.  They then take that with them and eventually there may be a time when an all woman team will be built and all of them will have had VOR and/or blue water racing experience.  Phil sounded like he would fit right in on Scallywag.

In my opinion, the discussion was very forthright, and both interviewees (if there is such a word) hit the nail squarely on the head (no puns please Jack). I thought it very fitting that both should end up on the same team, because they get the opportunity to experience what they discussed on the same boat. A mixed crew! It isn't necessarily going to be an easy adjustment, but I believe that both will gain quite a lot from the experience.

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6 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

You two should get married and if there is God we wake up to hear....double tragedy on honeymoon.

Jack, if you have a specific opinion on mixed crews, then state it.  May be you have in the past, but it would be refreshing to read it again. As you have said many times before, contributors to this forum are not compelled to read or reply to posts. However, if I disagree with the characterization of someone in a post as bucc did in his, then I am damn well going to reply, whether you like it or not.

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59 minutes ago, Retired Sailor said:

In my opinion, the discussion was very forthright, and both interviewees (if there is such a word) hit the nail squarely on the head (no puns please Jack). I thought it very fitting that both should end up on the same team, because they get the opportunity to experience what they discussed on the same boat. A mixed crew! It isn't necessarily going to be an easy adjustment, but I believe that both will gain quite a lot from the experience.

As that was done a year ago, I'll grant that Phil had a change of heart, but Abby still made the most sense.  If it takes VOR setting rules on crew that push for a mixed environment, I like that thinking.  I am also glad they push for the under 30 crew, because otherwise that average sailor age is starting to get a little high.  If there is an 8th boat, and we are back to guessing, I would love that they follow Dee's approach and get even more younger, newer blood out there on the ocean.  They may also take to OD better than the more established sailors, though I see Bouwie has started to embrace the gestalt.  

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Jack has rightfully 'picked the point' that you two 'Bozo's' have monopolised this thread, and yaawn... it is getting really tiresome reliving past events.....

 

New crew... new discussion...   

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2 hours ago, xsailmakerSYD said:

Jack has rightfully 'picked the point' that you two 'Bozo's' have monopolised this thread, and yaawn... it is getting really tiresome reliving past events.....

 

New crew... new discussion...   

Interesting phrase...monopolize....On a semi-public forum, one where anyone who registers can make a comment, how then does one monopolize.  Retired and I are/were having a conversation...sure enough.   No one stops others from having there's.  This is like a bar scene and folks can over hear some conversations, but can certainly refrain from commenting on them even as they have their own.  We are all in the VOR bar and not a one hold court over others when it comes to discourse, discussion , and opinion.

Seems you want to chat with Jack, he certainly is around.  I find his commentary boorish most times so I choose to ignore him.  Knowledgeable as he seems, his manners are ... childish...yes.. in this internet age.

So, truth be told, no one person or two can monopolize a discussion thread, they can chat, and move on if need be.  However sadly, it seems people can just insult others and as I've found, tis best to ignore them as one can.  It reminds me of the old adage...naa...you'd not get it anyway.

Cheers.

Speaking of cooler shit than your comments.

https://www.teamakzonobel.com/press/team-akzonobel-finishes-second-in-final-leg-zero-stage-as-light-winds-force-shortened-course-off-vigo-spain

This will be a team to watch, one I am rooting for as I like their approach to the race.  Tough call for good people are seeded around the fleet, but TToP, Akzo, Brunel are my favs with a nod to Mafpre.  Sorry SS, I respect DF, but we have to go with what connects us to the event. However, they will be strong and I can see them on the podium, but they cannot make too many mistakes ;-)  Now mystery boat 8...that will be quite the spoiler.

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5 hours ago, xsailmakerSYD said:

New crew... new discussion...   

You're the bozo, the interview of Abby and Phil recently posted by southerncross was exactly that, a discussion of new crew, namely mixed genders. As a relative new comer to this forum at least, you may be unaware of the numerous people who have monopolized this forum with endless arguments about matters that had nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of this forum, which is the forthcoming race, but I for one just browsed through them and moved on.

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4 hours ago, bucc5062 said:

Interesting phrase...monopolize....On a semi-public forum, one where anyone who registers can make a comment, how then does one monopolize.  Retired and I are/were having a conversation...sure enough.   No one stops others from having there's.  This is like a bar scene and folks can over hear some conversations, but can certainly refrain from commenting on them even as they have their own.  We are all in the VOR bar and not a one hold court over others when it comes to discourse, discussion , and opinion.

Seems you want to chat with Jack, he certainly is around.  I find his commentary boorish most times so I choose to ignore him.  Knowledgeable as he seems, his manners are ... childish...yes.. in this internet age.

So, truth be told, no one person or two can monopolize a discussion thread, they can chat, and move on if need be.  However sadly, it seems people can just insult others and as I've found, tis best to ignore them as one can.  It reminds me of the old adage...naa...you'd not get it anyway.

Cheers.

Speaking of cooler shit than your comments.

https://www.teamakzonobel.com/press/team-akzonobel-finishes-second-in-final-leg-zero-stage-as-light-winds-force-shortened-course-off-vigo-spain

This will be a team to watch, one I am rooting for as I like their approach to the race.  Tough call for good people are seeded around the fleet, but TToP, Akzo, Brunel are my favs with a nod to Mafpre.  Sorry SS, I respect DF, but we have to go with what connects us to the event. However, they will be strong and I can see them on the podium, but they cannot make too many mistakes ;-)  Now mystery boat 8...that will be quite the spoiler.

Dear me Bucc, it is that obvious I am rooting for Dongfeng - many real and realistic reasons for doing so, not least they are my home team and I know most of them pretty well.

I think Mapfre deserve more than a 'nod' as they are, (and not just from their Leg 0 performance) the team to beat. As General Sun stated (Art of War) "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer" so it was no surprise that Mapfre and Dongfeng became training partners so to speak - from both teams' perspective.

Mapfre are strong make no mistake about it. Xabi has a few 'planet laps' under his belt and I have family experience just how good and quick Rob G is. Brunel, as I have said before should be included in a solid podium bet, no one has more Whitbread/Volvo experience than him and by the way the interview with him in this month's Seahorse is more than worth a read. One quote from that I would share is his comment about the Volvo 65s - "They are good boats" - there you heard it from the horse's mouth so we should all shut up moaning about how they are inferior I suppose.

Then again compared to some of his earlier experiences with bomb doors falling off then something that stays afloat would carry that accolade.

I was sort of delighted to see Capey back in the race other than the fact he is competition (just kidding Andrew). An ace navigator and a good bloke as well proving that not all Aussies are as we assume.

Speaking of Aussies I think David Witt perhaps got one thing spot on, this upcoming VOR might just turn into a 45,000 mile match race especially in the later legs if things are close.

And by the way I am not forgetting Simon Tienpont's guys. They too have shown they can hand it out - there are certainly and absolutely no foregone conclusions in this Volvo Ocean Race.

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59 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

 

I was sort of delighted to see Capey back in the race other than the fact he is competition (just kidding Andrew). An ace navigator and a good bloke as well proving that not all Aussies are as we assume.

 

Oi SS, I resemble that !!!!

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5 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

I think Mapfre deserve more than a 'nod' as they are, (and not just from their Leg 0 performance) the team to beat. As General Sun stated (Art of War) "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer" so it was no surprise that Mapfre and Dongfeng became training partners so to speak - from both teams' perspective.

You do know that's not 100% correct right? That quote is actually from, err, The Godfather II. 

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu#Misattributed

 

And, if you want to check the original text, it's here:

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/17405/pg17405.txt

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4 hours ago, DtM said:

Oi SS, I resemble that !!!!

No offence intended DtM

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5 minutes ago, DFL1010 said:

You do know that's not 100% correct right? That quote is actually from, err, The Godfather II. 

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu#Misattributed

 

And, if you want to check the original text, it's here:

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/17405/pg17405.txt

I stand corrected DFL but still a great concept.

Cheers

SS

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5 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Dear me Bucc, it is that obvious I am rooting for Dongfeng - many real and realistic reasons for doing so, not least they are my home team and I know most of them pretty well.

I think Mapfre deserve more than a 'nod' as they are, (and not just from their Leg 0 performance) the team to beat. As General Sun stated (Art of War) "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer" so it was no surprise that Mapfre and Dongfeng became training partners so to speak - from both teams' perspective.

Mapfre are strong make no mistake about it. Xabi has a few 'planet laps' under his belt and I have family experience just how good and quick Rob G is. Brunel, as I have said before should be included in a solid podium bet, no one has more Whitbread/Volvo experience than him and by the way the interview with him in this month's Seahorse is more than worth a read. One quote from that I would share is his comment about the Volvo 65s - "They are good boats" - there you heard it from the horse's mouth so we should all shut up moaning about how they are inferior I suppose.

Then again compared to some of his earlier experiences with bomb doors falling off then something that stays afloat would carry that accolade.

I was sort of delighted to see Capey back in the race other than the fact he is competition (just kidding Andrew). An ace navigator and a good bloke as well proving that not all Aussies are as we assume.

Speaking of Aussies I think David Witt perhaps got one thing spot on, this upcoming VOR might just turn into a 45,000 mile match race especially in the later legs if things are close.

And by the way I am not forgetting Simon Tienpont's guys. They too have shown they can hand it out - there are certainly and absolutely no foregone conclusions in this Volvo Ocean Race.

I would have never guessed ;)

You are correct on Mapfre and it did look like boats were picking trial horse partners, clearly Mapfre and DF, the two top (for now) were working that line.  It is way to easy say that Mapfre, Dongfeng, and BRunel will be the podium contenders, but as I love to root for the underdogs, my heart picks are TToP, Akzo, and Brunel (go dutch).   All that said, the lines are very thin this time around, because the talent is spread, and each boat has a Story, even Scally.  It will come a point where these boats, the one's that want to win, embrace the thought that this is OD.  That with such talent on the boats and the evenness of the boats, if you lose touch, if you take a flyer (like Scally did), you more than likely will be DFL.

This is the beauty of this race.  Young, old, experienced, just learning about the race.  We all come together to experience what we've done or would dream to do.  

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Great video, but man, going to be hard to keep the energy up like that for over 50 days.  I guess the bob and bake shots got left on the editing floor.
 

 

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The advantage will go to those who raced the previous edition.  No nonsense maneuvers or tactics.  That was all played out last time.  

Stick with the leaders, swap leads and pounce at the end.  Much like any distance race. 

I like Mapfre's chances.  They're showing some polish very early into it and will only improve.

 

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https://www.seahorsemagazine.com/current-issue/111-content/august-2017/513-too-soon

Something more interesting to debate.  

The Imoca 60 five-appendage limit also hasn’t helped. While going for a one-design keel and mast package improved reliability, it didn’t reduce costs; for the larger teams building new boats budgets increased this time by around 30 per cent (a foiling Imoca 60 will leave you little or no change out of 5 million euros).

A suggested solution was to change the Imoca 60 rule to permit seven boards, including two pairs of daggerboards. This would solve upwind performance as one set of boards could be dedicated to preventing leeway leaving the other to provide vertical lift. This would also reduce costs as two pairs of straight (or straighter) daggerboards will cost less than constructing a single pair of Dali boards with a giant, complex, expensive to build and possibly unreliable right angle in them. However, the result of a seven-appendage ‘Swiss army knife’ would be an unwelcome weight penalty of around 200kg.

Another solution to the upwind problem, which seems to have been deliberately kept in the Imoca 60 rule hoping that someone, someday, will take advantage of it, is to go for a narrower boat with a fixed keel relying on a foil to leeward to provide more of its stability. This would involve the keel foil itself preventing leeway – a radical concept, eh? – while allowing a lateral foil the sole job of producing vertical lift, to compensate for lost righting moment due to the lack of canting keel and hull form stability, as well as helping this smaller, lighter (and potentially cheaper) boat to get fully airborne.

An added benefit is that to assist upwind ability on our 60ft cigar the Imoca 60 rule still allows a fixed-keel boat to have a trim tab. The only problem is that no one is likely to take this option now that new Imoca 60s are locked into having a onedesign keel and mast.

However, perhaps this might be a more suitable solution for the new Volvo onedesigns: a foiling boat that requires much better windward ability than an Imoca 60. The new Figaro, for example, gets around this by having a fixed keel.

 

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Continued ...

Of course adopting a boat that isn’t onedesign seems to have not been on the table, which in our opinion is a shame. Traditionally the Volvo Ocean Race and Whitbread before it were always thought to be the pinnacle of the sport and their custom boats, built to box rules or before that IOR, added to this. They also provided another talking point for journalists and race followers and helped differentiate teams, adding to their own identity. A criticism often levelled at the present-day Volvo Ocean Race is that in going one-design it no longer feels like the grand prix event we grew up with.

Absolutely!

But it is disappointing given that we have this brand-new technology – foiling – that right now needs to flourish and develop. We should be aiming for newgeneration offshore monohulls that will foil fully downwind in ever lighter conditions and are even fast enough to foil upwind. If human ingenuity is allowed to express itself then this will happen but it will do so much more slowly with so many classes/races now one-design.

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Thanks for linky southern. Think it is a bit cute saying VOR went too early on a new design. They had no choice as current 65's didn't have the legs to be marketed beyond 17/18. As for going back to the box rule I couldn't agree more. OD will kill this race, not lack of funds.

The whole foil, appendages, cant or not to cant balance for enhancing upwind performance is interesting in that the current course is not really suitable for a foiler with limited appendages. I suspect two things may happen. The new Volvo boats will get a upwind design tweak before build comitt date or the course will be made more off-wind friendly. Let's hope the race is still alive after this new OD generation is dead.

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Just now, jack_sparrow said:

Thanks for linky southern. Think it is a bit cute saying VOR went too early on a new design. They had no choice as current 65's didn't have the legs to be marketed beyond 17/18.

The whole foil, appendages, cant or not to cant balance for enhancing upwind performance is interesting in that the current course is not really suitable for a foiler with limited appendages. I suspect two things may happen. The new Volvo boats will get a upwind design tweak before build comitt date or the course will be made more off-wind friendly. 

Agree.  Weight/reliability issue will also be a big challenge.

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There is still a big limiting factor regarding foils used off shore

 

Quote

What must be of some concern is that, compared to water ballast and canting keels, foiling technology is way more complex and tricky to engineer in an offshore environment. For example, of the five newgeneration semi-foiling Imoca 60s on their first major outing in the 2015 Transat Jacques Vabre, only Banque Populaire finished (with structural damage), while others suffered severe failures, the worst being Hugo Boss which was nearly written off.

In last winter’s Vendée Globe five of the seven foilers finished, with Alex Thomson famously breaking one of Hugo Boss’s boards. Upon finishing, race winner Armel le Cléac’h admitted that he had been cautious about using Banque Populaire’s foils: ‘I tended to use them [only] in situations where I thought I needed to boost my speed, like a turbo, when I needed to attack a little more.’ But this may also have been to avoid repeating the same damage that sistership Edmond de Rothschild sustained to the top of her port foil, which partially broke within its case leaving it, as skipper Seb Josse alarmingly reported, ‘just hanging by two screws’.

You stick something out the side of a boat and the chance of it hitting something increases.  Take that to the extreme they talk about in the end, foiling tris and it is not hard to imagine a disaster when one of those boats hits a UFO at speed while in the air.

I'm okay with the idea of VOR going to foils, but given what happened in the last VG, one damaged foil could not only ruin a leg, depending on the amount of damage, it could put the boat out of the next.  As they R&D the next generation of foils, I do hope they look at how to protect the boat if a carbon fiber extension slams into something at speed.  With what Armel said, it does add a dimension to the race as teams now could decide when to deploy the foil.  That certainly could mix up positions.

That was a great article and though I disagree with the viewpoint regarding the VOR going to OD, the author acknowledges some of the benefits in doing so.  

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10 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

 

Speaking of Aussies I think David Witt perhaps got one thing spot on, this upcoming VOR might just turn into a 45,000 mile match race especially in the later legs if things are close.

 

IMHO, this applies more to the near coastal and shorter legs.  The longer legs especially the Southern ocean legs will be the real proving ground. The teams that can push harder and longer will win out.

And agree with Jack_S.  After the OD is done let's go back to racing where, to paraphrase Colin Chapman, the race begins, when the rule is announced! 

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