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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

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Be grateful.

After all the AC is supposed to be the leading event in sailing (Money spent if noting else) - and they apparently have nothing left from the Bermuda edition. :ph34r:

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5 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

better, if i want it.  Hell, Bouwe asked me to be his OBR not too long ago... anyway, have been texting with Turner all morning, he is an old friend (watching the race from the hospital - amazing that a guy who runs up mountains and swims across the mediterranean broke his ankle walking around the race village!)

 

 At the moment, I'm not too inspired to follow the race much.  We'll see how it goes.

That would have been sweet!

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50 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Having no Full Replay available and only a 1:06 Minute Highlight Clip is absolutely unacceptable.

Good thing full replay is available for you then. 

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1 hour ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Having no Full Replay available and only a 1:06 Minute Highlight Clip is absolutely unacceptable.

You're so full of shit, it's hard to fathom. The full replay was available 5-10 min after the live broadcast through Facebook (if you know what that is). 

Stop trolling this forum as you promised yourself over in SAAC and get a life

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3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

since when is second place the winner?

Won an Olympic medal....  sorry, I know that accuracy of words matter here in the Sa forums.

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1 hour ago, jbc said:

Does anyone know which OBRs were on which boat for the in-port race? In the FB video it looks like the person in black taking pictures on Mapfre is a dude, and so not Jen Edney, who I think was the Mapfre OBR for the prologue race. I know they've talked about how the OBRs aren't connected to the teams like they were last time, so maybe people are being shuffled around?

Which is why Clean's suggestion that Bouwe wanted him as his OBR is rubbish.

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My goodness, reading the last few pages it seems people are more interested in "How the VOR Turns" (Soap Opera reference) than racing.

Watching the race was quite telling about the potentials of these crews.  Brunel has a shit start, sits second at one point and finishes fourth which tells me they got some damn good raw talent, just need a little better execution.  the same with DF who surprised me with some boat handling mistakes, yet came from back of the pack and pulled a strong second.

On the first downwind rounding I was surprised AKN opened the door for Scallywag, because from the camera angle it looked like there was no overlap and Scally was still finishing a gybe.  That cost  AKN down the road.  Then again, Scally was tough on the start line as well.  I wonder if Witty is less caring about banging boats so people just give him room.

MAPFRE sailed a fantastic race and clearly is now the team to beat.  the team that will be sleepers is Turn the Tide.  Great start, shitting decisions upwind, but at the end, finished inside a minute of that next boat.  they got work to do, but the raw talent is there.  It will be agony following them for they will be brilliant, they will smell like a run over skunk, yet if the gel, they could be mid-pack.  End of the day, something about Witty's face makes me just not want to even cheer in general for him.  At best, I hope they don't get hurt.

Leg one is meaningless, because of it's shortness and still sailing close to shore.  Leg two will tell the tale of who these teams flesh out to be running down to Capetown.  Skipping leg 1, end of leg two, the top three will be MAPFRE, Dong Feng and Brunel, though Vestas11 could swap.  I'll put AKN next with a toss up on SCally and TtT.  My support is for Dee so I think they have the chops to put Scally in 7th.

Whatever the coverage, it was a good race today with position swaps.  As the guy said, this is one design, like it or not...I love it.

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41 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

My goodness, reading the last few pages it seems people are more interested in "How the VOR Turns" (Soap Opera reference) than racing.

Funny.. and good race recap there. Very-dumb question though:

Is AKN scrambling to replace Simeon on very short notice, to at least keep up the numbers? How the hell do you do that?

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42 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

My goodness, reading the last few pages it seems people are more interested in "How the VOR Turns" (Soap Opera reference) than racing.

Watching the race was quite telling about the potentials of these crews.  Brunel has a shit start, sits second at one point and finishes fourth which tells me they got some damn good raw talent, just need a little better execution.  the same with DF who surprised me with some boat handling mistakes, yet came from back of the pack and pulled a strong second.

On the first downwind rounding I was surprised AKN opened the door for Scallywag, because from the camera angle it looked like there was no overlap and Scally was still finishing a gybe.  That cost  AKN down the road.  Then again, Scally was tough on the start line as well.  I wonder if Witty is less caring about banging boats so people just give him room.

MAPFRE sailed a fantastic race and clearly is now the team to beat.  the team that will be sleepers is Turn the Tide.  Great start, shitting decisions upwind, but at the end, finished inside a minute of that next boat.  they got work to do, but the raw talent is there.  It will be agony following them for they will be brilliant, they will smell like a run over skunk, yet if the gel, they could be mid-pack.  End of the day, something about Witty's face makes me just not want to even cheer in general for him.  At best, I hope they don't get hurt.

Leg one is meaningless, because of it's shortness and still sailing close to shore.  Leg two will tell the tale of who these teams flesh out to be running down to Capetown.  Skipping leg 1, end of leg two, the top three will be MAPFRE, Dong Feng and Brunel, though Vestas11 could swap.  I'll put AKN next with a toss up on SCally and TtT.  My support is for Dee so I think they have the chops to put Scally in 7th.

Whatever the coverage, it was a good race today with position swaps.  As the guy said, this is one design, like it or not...I love it.

I disagree, I don't think an in-port race in light conditions with just two sails tells us anything, apart from how good they are in an in-port race in such conditions. We don't know shit about how they'll do in the real race yet. 

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19 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Let's all try to avoid getting sued for defamation, ok?  I'll be editing those kinds of allegations out.

This is fucking hilarious. I’ll throw a big ‘ol shout out to Mr. ************ for putting you in your place. About fucking time you learned to wait for facts. Good on ya fat man. 

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6 minutes ago, Monkey said:

This is fucking hilarious. I’ll throw a big ‘ol shout out to Mr. ************ for putting you in your place. About fucking time you learned to wait for facts. Good on ya fat man. 

You know Clean, he has friends and he hears things. Lmao!

Did I hear somewhere from an imaginary friend that Simeon is still trying to stick some extra weight up where it doesn't belong?

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1 minute ago, NORBowGirl said:

I disagree, I don't think an in-port race in light conditions with just two sails tells us anything, apart from how good they are in an in-port race in such conditions. We don't know shit about how they'll do in the real race yet. 

I'll respect your view, but for me, every race, every leg is an indication of team decisions, dynamics, capabilities.  the number of sails used matters less than how they use them.  MAPFRE ducked five boats, took a chance on crossing another, made decisions on lay lines that did not allow for screw ups.  they made both short and long decisions and the execution on the boat was well performed.  I don't need more sails to see that.  This is a strong confident team.

Brunel came back from a horrible start.  They  seemed to make good tactical decisions, good sail shape decisions, but most importantly did not let a fucked up start impact their ability to sail fast.  Didn't need multiple sails to show the character of the skipper and the team.  Same with DF.

I watch TtT have a fantastic start, then throw it away in the first five minutes.  They made poor tactical decisions in the beginning, yet, towards the end of the race pulled back to a close race with Scallywag.  That tells me that Dee has a raw crew that can be brilliant, but as quick not.  They have the most to gain and this race shows the flaws.

Scallywag was aggressive, but it did not pay out for them.  I get the feeling that being behind will not be good for this crew, because they came from an environment where they ruled in maxi's, but here, in one design, aggressive sailing may be one's undoing.

Unless a team was dialing it in, and I didn't see that today, this short, tight, intense race shown a light on the best and worst of the teams.  How they triage the results and fix the gaps will be telling in leg two.  Like I said, leg one will not push the limits other that to highlight if teams in the back polish out the weak areas.  I don't doubt that there will some very close racing, even over 3000+ miles. 

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12 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

bucc,

I put MAPFRE's Decision to duck 5 Boats and then go to the right-hand side of the course to local knowledge. This is their own backyard so it's not really a shocker they won this Race.

I won't disagree that may have helped, but just watching the execution on board, they got their act together.  The tacks were crisp, crew movement coordindated.  Local knowledge helps, but man, that was watching an already well oiled machine :-)

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

On the first downwind rounding I was surprised AKN opened the door for Scallywag, because from the camera angle it looked like there was no overlap and Scally was still finishing a gybe.  That cost  AKN down the road.  Then again, Scally was tough on the start line as well.  I wonder if Witty is less caring about banging boats so people just give him room.

With Witty's reputation for scant regard for the RRS, it is only a matter of time before we see Scally protested for something. I bet all teams are keeping well out of the way to keep their boat intact! Remember the start of the Fastnet?

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Just got the press release from Simeon's personal team.

 

The meeting with skipper of team AkzoNobel Simeon Tienpont and Communications, Public Affairs & Legal Affairs of AkzoNobel, which was cancelled by AkzoNobel a few times and was late, did not contribute to any solution. The deadlock Tienpont was forced in yesterday following AkzoNobel's one-sided termination of the contract was not resolved; the meeting did not contribute to any solution, so there was no other choice than to go public after AkzoNobel's suggestive statement about our skipper Simeon Tienpont. 

During the prologue leg of the Volvo Ocean Race (which left Lisbon on October 8th), so at a time AkzoNobel knew that Tienpont as a skipper was unreachable, AkzoNobel terminated their contract with Simeon Tienpont and his entire team. The team finished third in the prologue.

FIRST ENTRY
AkzoNobel announced their sponsorship in the 2017-18 race on July 5th, 2016 in Scheveningen, the Netherlands, and were the first team to enter the 2017-2018 Volvo Ocean Race. The Volvo Ocean Race is the longest and toughest sailing race in the world. Tienpont has participated twice in the race (2005-06 and 2016) and is a two time America’s Cup winner.

DISSAPOINTED
AkzoNobel has refused to reverse its decision and it looks they are unwilling to continue the Volvo Ocean Race campaign with Tienpont as their skipper. Tienpont: “ Disappointing, especially because me and my team were successfully racing the prologue from Lisbon to Alicante”.
Also, only a few weeks ago, on September 25th, 2017 the new CEO of AkzoNobel confirmed Tienpont his personal and AkzoNobel’s support for the campaign. The CEO urged Simeon to contact him personally if any problem should arise. Sadly up to time, AkzoNobel’s CEO has not been available for Tienpont upon the termination. No explanation has been givens as to why AkzoNobel acted in this manner. Tienpont: "They talk about a contract break, which is absolutely unfounded and is very damaging to my reputation, especially in view of the timing, just before the start of the race. I can only guess that it is about a small budget overrun on a safety issue, but we have always been 100% transparent to AkzoNobel about our financial affairs and all our expenses have been made with their approval. It is them, not me, who is in clear breach of the contract.".

WINNING APPROACH
Tienpont: “It has always been my aim to run a safe, sustainable and winning campaign for AkzoNobel and I still want to do so. My other sponsors and partners supporting the team, my sailing and shore crew employed, where very confident in our approach to represent AkzoNobel in the very best way possible. It came as a huge and unpleasant surprise when AkzoNobel terminated the contract during the prologue at the time the team was at sea. Tienpont and his team will now regroup and try to develop options to continue with this winning campaign”.

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Not much in that release accept that the people who run AkzoNobel are a bunch of shady and underhanded D-bags.

So does this mean Simeon and his team are out of the race?  Or can they continue without Akzo stuff on their boat?  

Might want to get Boat #8 to Alicante ASAP.  ;)

WetHog  :ph34r: 

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

Scallywag was aggressive, but it did not pay out for them.  I get the feeling that being behind will not be good for this crew, because they came from an environment where they ruled in maxi's, but here, in one design, aggressive sailing may be one's undoing.

Never won anything in Maxi's against other maxis

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This edition might go down in history as the Lawyers edition. 

I assume  after terminating the team AkzoNobel are trying to contract individuals direct. Tienpont will obviously contest that. Then we have the AkzoNobel/Tienpoint contract with Volvo where if the former suddenly are a no show they are in breach. Volvo potential losses here could be shown to be huge. Probably why AkzoNobel did the In-Port to avoid that.

Assuming the individuals stick together, don't fold and sign up with AkzoNobel direct and Volvo don't waive their rights, Tienpoint may have AkzoNobel on toast.

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It's slightly odd that they comment about a small budget overrun?

 

 Might be more to this than we know?  And as an extra conspiracy theory, did Mark Turner here rumours? 

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We don't know. No idea what contracts say or who is actually contracted to whom. 
Going for breach of contract is no joke. The usual public story, if any, tends to be personal reasons, irreconcilable differences or even loss of confidence.
Cost overrun is one thing. How minor is minor? Safety requirements are usually a good reason. Keeping the sponsor in the loop helps. esp. if someone at Akzo did indeed sign it off. 

For extra fun it looks from the measurement certs:
Owner(s)/Team          VOR, team AkzoNobel BV

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Tienpont: "They talk about a contract break, which is absolutely unfounded and is very damaging to my reputation, especially in view of the timing, just before the start of the race. I can only guess that it is about a small budget overrun on a safety issue,....

Bit hard to imagine a budget overun  for this that was significant enough to warrant tearing up a contract. I think a lot of teams used the same  venue/provider in England and probably on  a Volvo special $ rate. AkzoNobels' silence over this is deafening.

 

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18 minutes ago, Chasm said:

For extra fun it looks from the measurement certs:
Owner(s)/Team          VOR, team AkzoNobel BV

Why???? Volvo own all the boats. This is a RentaRacer show.

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1 hour ago, Bill E Goat said:

Never won anything in Maxi's against other maxis

I took a shot given the ego this guys carries on his sleeve.  I guess then it's just the money thing.  I learned he was in 20 SH events, did one Volvo.  From what I've seen of his recent managerial and on the water decision making, I'm not impressed.  He reminds me of these folks that feel they are so good in one area then but of course, they are good in another.  Never question the idea that maybe, possibly, there are others a damn sight better.  I give more respect to Dee for what she is attempting than this mug.

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Just got the press release from Simeon's personal team.

 

The meeting with skipper of team AkzoNobel Simeon Tienpont and Communications, Public Affairs & Legal Affairs of AkzoNobel, which was cancelled by AkzoNobel a few times and was late, did not contribute to any solution. The deadlock Tienpont was forced in yesterday following AkzoNobel's one-sided termination of the contract was not resolved; the meeting did not contribute to any solution, so there was no other choice than to go public after AkzoNobel's suggestive statement about our skipper Simeon Tienpont. 

During the prologue leg of the Volvo Ocean Race (which left Lisbon on October 8th), so at a time AkzoNobel knew that Tienpont as a skipper was unreachable, AkzoNobel terminated their contract with Simeon Tienpont and his entire team. The team finished third in the prologue.

FIRST ENTRY
AkzoNobel announced their sponsorship in the 2017-18 race on July 5th, 2016 in Scheveningen, the Netherlands, and were the first team to enter the 2017-2018 Volvo Ocean Race. The Volvo Ocean Race is the longest and toughest sailing race in the world. Tienpont has participated twice in the race (2005-06 and 2016) and is a two time America’s Cup winner.

DISSAPOINTED
AkzoNobel has refused to reverse its decision and it looks they are unwilling to continue the Volvo Ocean Race campaign with Tienpont as their skipper. Tienpont: “ Disappointing, especially because me and my team were successfully racing the prologue from Lisbon to Alicante”.
Also, only a few weeks ago, on September 25th, 2017 the new CEO of AkzoNobel confirmed Tienpont his personal and AkzoNobel’s support for the campaign. The CEO urged Simeon to contact him personally if any problem should arise. Sadly up to time, AkzoNobel’s CEO has not been available for Tienpont upon the termination. No explanation has been givens as to why AkzoNobel acted in this manner. Tienpont: "They talk about a contract break, which is absolutely unfounded and is very damaging to my reputation, especially in view of the timing, just before the start of the race. I can only guess that it is about a small budget overrun on a safety issue, but we have always been 100% transparent to AkzoNobel about our financial affairs and all our expenses have been made with their approval. It is them, not me, who is in clear breach of the contract.".

WINNING APPROACH
Tienpont: “It has always been my aim to run a safe, sustainable and winning campaign for AkzoNobel and I still want to do so. My other sponsors and partners supporting the team, my sailing and shore crew employed, where very confident in our approach to represent AkzoNobel in the very best way possible. It came as a huge and unpleasant surprise when AkzoNobel terminated the contract during the prologue at the time the team was at sea. Tienpont and his team will now regroup and try to develop options to continue with this winning campaign”.

So, big name sponsor is unhappy, for some reason, with current skipper.  They decide that said skipper broke some rule of a contract, a fine excuse to remove said skipper, and skipper is fired.

What is seriously the issue here?  They wanted him gone, they found a way, he's gone.  Hell, this happens all the time in sport business or just business.  Perhaps Tienpoint pissed some exec off, told off the CEO in private, pushed back too hard, wanted too much control.  Whatever the reason, AKN pulls the purse strings so at the end of the day, they get to hire and fire the head guy.  Clearly they, Akzonobel, are staying in the race.  Clearly they will find or have found another skipper and will retain the crew.  Come Leg 1 we'll see seven boats on the line, one without the capable skills of one Mr Tienpoint.  Sucks being fired.

Bigger question, how does this effect the team?  Can the get enough time in with a new skipper to stay competitive?  

People come and go in business and at the end of the day, they may be sailing around the world, but business still runs the show.  I won't waste time speculating as to why he got fired, because it does not matter.  Tienpoint will tell his tale, the company their's, yet between the two lies a boat and a team primed to race around the world.  They deserve our attention more then Housewives of the VOR which some here are turning this into.

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2 hours ago, Bill E Goat said:

Never won anything in Maxi's against other maxis

I stand corrected for I did look up his past and now understand that he has been able to sell himself as "larger than life" when it would seem he more fits the mold of blow hard ego with a good, no damn good marketing department.  Now that I've looked back, the current performance of this boat makes more sense.  I would be surprised if they really improve much.  At some point TtT may surpass Scallywag for the simple reason that they don't let ego interfere with improvement.

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24 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

.  They deserve our attention more then Housewives of the VOR which some here are turning this into.

This may be all the VOR has left.

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Just now, southerncross said:

This may be all the VOR has left.

I'm thinking that may be all this thread on SA may have left.

There was a great race today.  tight start with what looked like major fuckups, yet the two worst starts finished 1st and 3rd.  Multiple position changes and tight mark roundings up and down kept it exciting.

Did any of the vaunted sailors on this forum talk about Scally's eased genoa and did it help or hurt?    Sail trim did matter, right or left side mattered it seemed, and anyone curious how much keel was used to help upwind?  Did any of these "expert" sailors comment on decisions to tack, stay on the right, Did AKN give room because Scally's skipper is an Ahole or it was a legitimate respect of a rule (I might have pressed myself).

Nope, folks got their panties wadded up, because a skipper got fired for some reason we will never know.  Fairly soon the big show starts and I honestly, at this point, given my more limited time to follow, don't give a shit about who's sleeping with whom, why so and so is off the or on the boat, because truly, the boats are leaving the harbor.  Now they race and what I am curious about, what I'm watching is how they race, the decisions they make on the water, who improves, who does not.  The drama is now on the water.

The VOR has a lot going for it if you care about the sailors, the effort, the race.  Turns out...I do.

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42 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

So, big name sponsor is unhappy, for some reason, with current skipper.  They decide that said skipper broke some rule of a contract, a fine excuse to remove said skipper, and skipper is fired.

What is seriously the issue here? 

Try it is Tienpont's Team who are contracted you fool. You really need to try listening/reading before opening your gob.

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28 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

Nope, folks got their panties wadded up, because a skipper got fired for some reason we will never know.

Just a skipper got fired?

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7 hours ago, DtM said:

Which is why Clean's suggestion that Bouwe wanted him as his OBR is rubbish.

Bouwe might have expressed that before the new OBR setup was decided. Or it could be that even with the new setup a team could express a preference that would be honored. Or even without that Bouwe still could have told Clean he wanted him as OBR if he was available.

That Clean would publicly claim Bouwe had told him that when it was actually a lie seems pretty unlikely to me.

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1 hour ago, bucc5062 said:

I'm thinking that may be all this thread on SA may have left.

There was a great race today.  tight start with what looked like major fuckups, yet the two worst starts finished 1st and 3rd.

I thought MAPFRE's start was brilliant. They won the race with 2 minutes to go when they set up over at the pin end all by themselves with their M0 rolled up, just chilling. Then they got up to speed, saw they had room to cross Brunel, and went for it.

In light winds on these tight windward-leeward courses with the boats so under-crewed, it was just who could get a clean line with minimal maneuvers and no fuckups in the strongest wind. And I realize that it's nothing like the actual race. But at least so far MAPFRE has been kicking everyone's ass consistently.* Maybe things will change when their local knowledge is no longer a factor. But for now they sure look good.

*Though DF did beat them by 56 seconds in the Fastnet.

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15 minutes ago, jbc said:

In light winds on these tight windward-leeward courses with the boats so under-crewed, it was just who could get a clean line with minimal maneuvers and no fuckups in the strongest wind.

Which is maybe the genisus to Turner's support of the next edition having cats for the In-Ports as more of a spectacle. That said the next AC in foiling monos around the same size as these, albeit in stronger Auckland breezes and a bit of sea, may well be more interesting than many think. 

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2 hours ago, jbc said:

Bouwe might have expressed that before the new OBR setup was decided. Or it could be that even with the new setup a team could express a preference that would be honored. Or even without that Bouwe still could have told Clean he wanted him as OBR if he was available.

That Clean would publicly claim Bouwe had told him that when it was actually a lie seems pretty unlikely to me.

 

                    ...ever heard of bartalk?,,,, Clean's 'full of it'.   :)

 

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The whole Akzo debacle is getting more and more confusing, and for those who don't do the front page, they have joined us in the shit stirring with the link to Clubracer and Google translate:   https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.clubracer.be%2F2017%2F10%2F14%2Fsimeon-tienpont-boord-schandaal-bij-team-akzonobel&edit-text=

The translation is quite acceptable actually, but what people may not realise is that the "updates" are a continuing thing, and I am sure this Sunday there will be a few more. And they are quite revealing, so here are just the updates with some translation corrections.  And kudos to Eddy Lekens of Clubracer for his efforts !

UPDATE 14/10/2017 at 16:01:
The English sailor Jules Salter (four-time participant) was on the helm of Team AkzoNobel during the In-Port race.
UPDATE 14/10/2017 at 16:23:
Clearly, AkzoNobel has put themselfes in a tricky position. This is due to the fact that the newly appointed skipper must have obtained the appropriate certificates and training required by the Volvo Ocean Race.
Bouwe Bekking (NED Team Brunel) after the In-Port race: "To get it, you're usually busy for a couple of weeks."
Bouwe further says: "Simeon Tienpont is a very good sailor, but never led a team. That's something different. He chose great sailors, but also men who could work with their elbows. It is a bizarre situation just before the start. A bad thing for Dutch sailing. ''
UPDATE 14/10/2017 at 16:31:
Annemieke Bes (NED & ex AkzoNobel): "It's a drama. Simeon and I recently did not agree, but I certainly do not wish this on him."
 "It is probably about money. Of course, it's not good for Dutch sailing. And loyalty within that team? No comment."
Gerd-Jan Poortman (NED): "A pity, a great pity. Simeon was, with Bouwe, our poster boy. This dismissal is painful. Bad for the race and bad for the image of the sport in our country. Sponsors will now be two think about coming in. "
UPDATE 14/10/2017 at 18:06:
From a good source, we learn that the sponsorship of AkzoNobel has been put in a company founded by Simeon Tienpont. That's why Simeon could not be fired. His BV also employed all crew members. AkzoNobel would like to take over all contracts.
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Eddy Lekens, Ice for the sail friends, is the founder of ClubRacer and as Digital Manager advicescompanies with their Omnichannel Ecommerce Strategy and Marketing Automation. Since 1979 he has been a racing sailor with an unprecedented sailing palmares: Winnaar Verbondsbeemem, 2x Dutch champion, 2x winner Antwerp Race (IRC and Sportboats) and with the ClubRacer sailing team chosen as the best offshore sailor in the Netherlands.

 

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1 hour ago, couchsurfer said:

 

                    ...ever heard of bartalk?,,,, Clean's 'full of it'.   :)

 

Mr. Clean is together with clubracer.be the only one who is able to give the news what is going to happen with Team Akzo Nobel. 
https://www.clubracer.be/2017/10/14/simeon-tienpont-boord-schandaal-bij-team-akzonobel
Fiji Flaki translated their site.
There were rumours on Nu.nl team Akzo Nobel will not start without their captain but the message was withdrawn 5 minutes ago.
https://www.nu.nl/sport-overig/4964033/team-akzonobel-weert-verbaasde-schipper-tienpont-bij-volvo-ocean-race.html
Translated:

AkzoNobel team turns out 'surprised' skipper Tienpont at Volvo Ocean Race   
Simeon Tienpont is unpleasantly surprised by the decision of Team AkzoNobel to withdraw him on the eve of the Volvo Ocean Race. The skipper would have committed breach of contract according to the Dutch sailing team. "I am very surprised at the decision that I had to get through the media," the 35-year-old Tienpont in his first response complains about the NOS. On Friday evening, Team AkzoNobel announced that it had sent away Tienpont without giving details about the case. The skipper hopes to bring other thoughts to AkzoNobel before the start of the prestigious race on Saturday afternoon, but it is not yet known whether the Dutch chemical company has gone into it.

Because the starting shot for the first leg on Saturday afternoon is already given in Alicante, it is only question whether Team AkzoNobel is still in a position to get a new skipper for the Volvo Ocean Race. Bekking The debuting team had already recorded Tienpont last year and allowed him to build his crew. "I can not wait to get started and try to win the race," said the skipper at the time of the presentation. Tienpont participated twice in the eight-month port race: in 2005/2006 on behalf of ABN Amro and two years ago he performed two stages in the team of Vestas Wind. In addition to Tienpont, who won the prestigious America's Cup twice with Oracle, another Dutch skipper joins the Volvo Ocean Race: Bouwe Bekking on behalf of Team Brunel. In the first stage, the seven yachts sail from Spain to Alicante to Portugal. At the end of June, the Volvo Ocean Race finishes in Scheveningen. By: NU.nl

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21 minutes ago, Fiji Flaky said:

From a good source, we learn that the sponsorship of AkzoNobel has been put in a company founded by Simeon Tienpont. That's why Simeon could not be fired. His BV also employed all crew members. AkzoNobel would like to take over all contracts.

 

That explains it. Let Thierry Vanlacker (CEO AKZO - Nobel) take the wheel.
Akzo.jpg
He will be as qualified in the job as he's doing now as CEO.
Taking all financial contracts under own management.
If I was Simeon I would let him do so.
But there is no communication between Simeon and public affairs Akzo Nobel.

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Spanish press talks about crew internal issues for AZ decision... but more importantly they pledge to use Chuny as the replacement skipper. It is true that he was a VOR skipper (with Delta Lloyd in 2008-9), a winner with Abu last time, etc. etc. etc.  It would make sense as he knows the team, but not sure he is keen on returning. We'll see. 

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According to this article Tienpont is now accusing AkzoNobel of breach of contract. 

https://sportnieuws.nl/overig/zeilen/schipper-tienpont-slaat-terug-akzonobel-pleegt-zelf-contractbreuk/

 

In short: He thinks that AkzoNobel wants to cut him from the team because he spent too much money but says he has been transparent every step of the way. 

Also that this whole business is very damaging for his reputation. 

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Vow. With a week to the start of leg 1, the lawyers are going to be extremely busy this week to try to reach a settlement between the parties. If not, this boat might end up staying put next Sunday. 

There must be a lot of water under the bridge in order to force AZ to this reckless (?) last minute move. 

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But can Simeon's company afford to pay for crew without reimbursement from AZ? Most unlikely.  So they will likely jump across to AZ Corporate.  they have to look after themselves.  Calling Nico even if it has to be starting with Leg 2.

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8 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Why???? Volvo own all the boats. This is a RentaRacer show.

It was interesting because others have have a company listed.

TTT: Owner(s)/Team VES Commercial Services Spain S.A
Mapfre: Owner(s)/Team TEAM CAMPOS, SLU
Brunel: Owner(s)/Team Sailing Holland B.V.

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7 minutes ago, DtM said:


But can Simeon's company afford to pay for crew without reimbursement from AZ? Most unlikely.  So they will likely jump across to AZ Corporate.  they have to look after themselves.  Calling Nico even if it has to be starting with Leg 2.

 

We'll find out when this drama reaches the next act.
After non payment issues in past editions VOR said that they put in measures to guarantee crew payment. (Say the last Russian boat.) VOR talked quite a bit about this during the last edition. As I understood sponsors had put enough money to keep the show going for the full edition up front. 

Reading the various updates it looks like Simeons company was the middle man between parties. I wonder who holds the race license.

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I am only a sea lawyer and a shit stirrer, but would it be possible for Simeon to "arrest" (put a lien on) the boat ?

Whatever happens, I have a feeling it is gone cost Akzo dearly.

 

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Exactly. That's what I meant with reckless. Simeon's company must be the one with the race license (i.e. the commercial contract with VOR). AZ needs to retake that contract,  with Simeon holding all cards right now. It could end up being quite costly for them. 

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42 minutes ago, DtM said:


But can Simeon's company afford to pay for crew without reimbursement from AZ? Most unlikely.  So they will likely jump across to AZ Corporate.  they have to look after themselves....

DtM not so easy for them to jump at a moment's notice or before the next pay cheque is due when they are already contracted to Tienpont. The payment timing of salaries and the Paintballers pulling the pin last week may be interesting.

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9 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

For extra fun it looks from the measurement certs:
Owner(s)/Team          VOR, team AkzoNobel BV

 

9 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Why???? Volvo own all the boats. This is a RentaRacer show

 

1 hour ago, Chasm said:

It was interesting because others have have a company listed.

TTT: Owner(s)/Team VES Commercial Services Spain S.A
Mapfre: Owner(s)/Team TEAM CAMPOS, SLU
Brunel: Owner(s)/Team Sailing Holland B.V.

Chasm you may well have stumbled upon something interesting then. Any dates on those certificates?

For instance does it indicate that at time of measurement, bearing in mind this was a new boat #8, the deal with Tienpont/AkzoNobel had not been consumated, and for some reason has not been updated to reflect that? Why hasn't that occured?

Question is who bears the ownership responsibility attached to measurement. Are AkzoNobel sitting there just funding the Tienpont entity so it is the Tienpont entity (being reimbursed), or is everything attached to this thing in AkzoNobel's name not Tienpont's entity and so AkzoNobel enjoy and incur all the rights, liabilities and obligations accordingly?

How this things pans out hinges on this aspect of AkzoNobel being either just a banker, or the team owner?

Alternatively is the measurement certificate up to date, and this team like none of the others is actually a Clayton's Volvo team where Tienpont/AkzoNobel are jointly providing most but not all of the money and the grunt?

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All of them are "Date of certification 01/10/2017" and posted on the noticeboard 10/10/2017

Hull # - Team - Owner/Team as listed on cert
701 - Dongfeng - Dongfeng Race Team / OC VOR Ltd
702 - ex SCA, no certificate posted
703 - Brunel - Sailing Holland B.V.
704 - Vestas - Vestas 11th Hour Racing
705 - Scallywag - Sun Hung Kai Scallywag
706 - TTT -  VES Commercial Services Spain S.A
707 - MAPFRE - TEAM CAMPOS, SLU
708 - AkzoNobel -  VOR, team AkzoNobel BV

Now if that actually means something... Hard to say, could be just copy pasta from old certs.
Looking a bit into team AkzoNobel BV. Registered in March, they have the same registration address as AKZO Nobel Chemicals BV. 

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44 minutes ago, Elisa said:

– Simeon Tienpont’s management company STEAM breached its contract to manage the team AkzoNobel entry in the Volvo Ocean race 2017-18
– The breach was serious enough for AkzoNobel to terminate the contract with immediate effect and AkzoNobel then took over the full management of the team
– Simeon was offered the option to continue as skipper but opted not to continue and has left the team

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1 hour ago, Elisa said:

That seems to answer it. AkzoNobel own the team lock stock and barrel, Tienpont only managed it. All over red rover and just a matter of finding a skip with his paperwork up to date. 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, ghosty2 said:

Who was actually helming each boat during the In-Port?

 

Salter as official 2IC. You would have to think Jackson will get the gig as a big leap for an outsider at such a late stage.

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5 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

That seems to answer it. AkzoNobel own the team lock stock and barrel, Tienpont only managed it. All over red rover and just a matter of finding a skip with his paperwork up to date. 

 

 

So contract breach. Been using the wrong chemicals? 

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15 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Does anyone recall talk of Nicho possibly joining AZ last year?? 

 

Not a sailing position but onshore manager I think.

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If this quote from Bouwe is correct he says  "Simeon Tienpont is a very good sailor, but never led a team. That's something different. He chose great sailors, but also men who could work with their elbows. It is a bizarre situation just before the start. A bad thing for Dutch sailing. ''

That seems to be Bouwe speak for ....all was good on sailing/boat personel side but maybe the front office side of admin, budgeting, cost control etc was not so good. Rumour is AZ last year wanted Tienpont to step back from that side and concentrate on sailing.only. If so then he disagreed and this train wreck has been in the making ever since.

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I worked on a project for Akzo. It was 3.5 times over budget and years late. I think the new ceo might be particularly sensitive to cost overruns

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I'd also take Tienpont statements and claims with a grain of salt. He's not exactly a straight shooter. Prior exp with pushing someone under the bus and walking away. 

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16 minutes ago, Miffy said:

I'd also take Tienpont statements and claims with a grain of salt. He's not exactly a straight shooter. Prior exp with pushing someone under the bus and walking away. 

Want to expand on that statement?

 

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Still intriguiges me that some at AkZo Co seem to have thought that this enormous publicity clusterf***k, including weakening of team's position etc, made it worthwhile to let Tienpont go and still less damaging then keeping him on a leach as manager. I guess the truth will come out eventually.

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19 hours ago, bucc5062 said:


People come and go in business and at the end of the day, they may be sailing around the world, but business still runs the show.  I won't waste time speculating as to why he got fired, because it does not matter.  Tienpoint will tell his tale, the company their's, yet between the two lies a boat and a team primed to race around the world.  They deserve our attention more then Housewives of the VOR which some here are turning this into.

I thought it was just established that it was better for you to keep your yap shut?

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31 minutes ago, Miffy said:

I'd also take Tienpont statements and claims with a grain of salt. He's not exactly a straight shooter. Prior exp with pushing someone under the bus and walking away. 

And yet dozens of people who have sailed with Simeon say he is a wonderful man, kind and fair. 

If you have some stuff from San Fran that actually can prove otherwise and isn't just more he said she said, have at it.

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Can anyone confirm whether or not Geovoile is going to be the tracker for the race itself, and if it isn't, which tracker will be used?  It's the only way I'm going to be able to follow this race when most starts and in-ports are going to be in the middle of the night on the west coast of NA!

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And if you find anything that shows that Simeon threw anyone else under the bus, please reveal it to the world.

 

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10 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I thought it was just established that it was better for you to keep your yap shut?

So, you are telling  a member of your forum they cannot post on your forum?  That a member on your forum cannot voice an opinion?  Given some of the shit posted on this site, some from you that is amazing.  However, you want to shut me up, cancel my account, because that would show the truly ape like mentality you create here on this site.

There are smart people here.  I learn engaging in some, so with all due respect Mr. Clean...stuff it.

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10 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

And yet dozens of people who have sailed with Simeon say he is a wonderful man, kind and fair. 

If you have some stuff from San Fran that actually can prove otherwise and isn't just more he said she said, have at it.

Clean lot of damming stuff tendered in Mitchell's court Case. However Tienpont didn't throw anyone under a bus, the throwee was higher up the food chain ..he just went doggo.

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2 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

So, you are telling  a member of your forum they cannot post on your forum? 

where did you see that?  Goddamn you are fucking awful at reading. what language is your first one?

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Just spoke to Nicho.  He is out, at least for now.  Sailing Proteus in the Middle Sea Race - that is why he is on a plane for europe.  Malta.

 

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17 minutes ago, Elisa said:

Still intriguiges me that some at AkZo Co seem to have thought that this enormous publicity clusterf***k, including weakening of team's position etc, made it worthwhile to let Tienpont go and still less damaging then keeping him on a leach as manager. I guess the truth will come out eventually.

This.

There were to be 8 teams.  Now 7 and now a seriously disadvantaged team.  Takes lots of water time to put a team together.  Not just the physical but the comradery as well.  Not saying they can’t pull it together or won’t find a capable replacement.  Sounds like the crew are pretty pissed about the whole thing though. Not the best way to start a race.

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Dutch primary news agency NOS;

“Conflict Tienpont vs. AkzoNobel ends in yes-no game”

Some new snippets

- according to AkzoNobel, the management company owned by Tienpont, Steam Ocean racing, is the primary reason for the conflict. This company manages the campaign. The sailors are under contract by Steam.

- according to Tienpont, the whole sailing team was fired during the prologue.

- The AkzoNobel spokesman says that regarding the contract breach “it was no ground to fire Tienpont” “we only want this management company out”

- according to AkzoNobel, Tienpont was asked to stay on as skipper, but without the Steam company.

- AkzoNobel is owner of the boat btw.

Both parties get a dent in their reputation. Not played well, and hard to tell who is the victim.

My speculation regarding the conflict is not sex or leadership skills, but purely business. Money. Contracts of 50 pages or more which no one understands. If in the small letters in the contracts between Steam and VOR , sailors and all other related parties all rights were vested with Steam, and not AkzoNobel. And possible revenues from VOR or other parties going to Steam, are at the discretion of Steam but not AkzoNobel. That would piss a sponsor of big time, investing millions but no vested rights and/or money return. Still it is strange that it would take so long to read the fucking contracts properly after signing them. And the realisation by AkzoNobel that they were screwed by the lawyers. In a worst case scenario for AkzoNobel, they did not see, predescribe or approve the Steam contracts and only just found out 2 weeks before the race starts that they were out of the loop. My 2 cents.

Source in Dutch https://nos.nl/l/2198155

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5 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

where did you see that?  Goddamn you are fucking awful at reading. what language is your first one?

"I thought it was just established that it was better for you to keep your yap shut?"

My reading comprehension is fine, how is your composition.  No one established such a point, unless you refer to that twit Jacko.  There are some I converse with on a positive note.  How then should I take your statement, the guy who pretty much runs this site.  Explain "keep your yap shut".  For the record, english.

Edited by bucc5062
corrected quote

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5 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

"I thought it was just established that it was better for you to keep your yap shut?"

My reading comprehension is fine, 

'established that it was better for you to keep your yap shut" vs. "you are not allowed to post on this forum'

BIt of a leap there, reading comprehension master.

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Whatever, I'm super fucking hungover and I have a few hours left to finish our 2016 taxes.  Apologies for being a twat.

 

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1 minute ago, Alinghi4ever said:

Time to stop the bickering to bucc.

He is such a nice guy.

What amazes me is the ugliness of some people.  You don;t like what someone says, ignore them.  Who knows they might go away.  Correct them so they can learn.  Attempt to understand the context of level they present their view.  Some here lead with anger and I am starting to gauge the root of some of that anger.  Even sadder, with my new life change i'm not on here as much, I come to gain insight, but as I pointed out, sailors spent more time on race day speculating on something most no nothing about than on the racing itself.  Even Clean tells me to shut my yap when all I comment on is that the whole AKN thing will sort itself out and we will only be recipients of the news.  Is there not something better to comment on?

For some, seems not.

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Surely Nico has most, if not all of the necessary paperwork/qualifications.. If not then time between now and Middle Sea and then after Middle Sea and before Lisbon start.  And in any event I suspect (without reading them again) that the SI's allow the VOR some latitude.

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Just now, MR.CLEAN said:

Whatever, I'm super fucking hungover and I have a few hours left to finish our 2016 taxes.  Apologies for being a twat.

 

I'll accept that  with this caveat, to tell someone to "shut their yap", from you, from anyone implies two things, either that person cannot speak again, or they can only speak when allowed.  I chose the former, because it came from you, the guy who runs this thing.  I reject the latter if it came from anyone else for they do not control me.  Again, I am an educated person and have the ability to...um...ignore...those that I find bring little substance other than angst and negativity to the table to start.

However, having been in a position of both hungover and texting and writing while drunk, both cases I find it better to re-read before hitting the button.  Hair of the dog may help your condition.

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14 minutes ago, bucc5062 said:

No one established such a point, unless you refer to that twit Jacko.

Mr Twit to you.

PS. I'm really looking forward to your tack by tack commentary for the next 40,000 mile as you obviously think everyone here is deaf, dumb and blind and your typing in braille. 

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The AzoNobel saga is pertinent to how the race has been unfolding this whole year and how management in one form or another seems to be fucking the whole thing up.

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16 minutes ago, Alinghi4ever said:

First of all it's not "My Leg Thread", secondly how about you stopping to attack bucc.

You are really a disgrace to this Community with your personal attacks to him.

Well your about the only one posting on it so own it son. And for the record the Bucmeister initiated it, copped a backhander then sent me a most unflattering PM so fuck him.

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16 hours ago, couchsurfer said:

 

                    ...ever heard of bartalk?,,,, Clean's 'full of it'.   :)

 

It's on tape, moron.