• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  

Recommended Posts

 

Doubtful. Very doubtful. Long time since the Clipper Skipper managed a crew of more than two. Too, the chances of a vid editor having more inside info than outside the editing room is very slim (would have leaked earlier if so).

 

Too bad. It's a story I could really appreciate if true. Better yet, MD or ALC will be his navigator.

 

 

Oh, I think I have my dream team: Alex as skipper, Wouter as navigator, and 7 women. That would both be exciting for the media AND the rest of us.

 

I admit it, I'm officially drooling. My jib is all the way up, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Doubtful. Very doubtful. Long time since the Clipper Skipper managed a crew of more than two. Too, the chances of a vid editor having more inside info than outside the editing room is very slim (would have leaked earlier if so).

 

Too bad. It's a story I could really appreciate if true. Better yet, MD or ALC will be his navigator.

 

 

Oh, I think I have my dream team: Alex as skipper, Wouter as navigator, and 7 women. That would both be exciting for the media AND the rest of us.

 

I admit it, I'm officially drooling. My jib is all the way up, etc.

 

Yes and Jean "clack clack clack merde" Le Cam as OBR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Doubtful. Very doubtful. Long time since the Clipper Skipper managed a crew of more than two. Too, the chances of a vid editor having more inside info than outside the editing room is very slim (would have leaked earlier if so).

 

Too bad. It's a story I could really appreciate if true. Better yet, MD or ALC will be his navigator.

 

 

Oh, I think I have my dream team: Alex as skipper, Wouter as navigator, and 7 women. That would both be exciting for the media AND the rest of us.

 

I admit it, I'm officially drooling. My jib is all the way up, etc.

 

Yes and Jean "clack clack clack merde" Le Cam as OBR.

 

 

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets cut the chase. No matter the outcome this story better rates another SA comic from François Denis. ;)

(First one about the HB spare foil.)

 

Taking a look at the french live of the same day (which gets recorded just before), no VOR in previous subtitles as far as I can tell. So no excuses there.

Still, reading verbatim, why would Neal skipper another VOR?

 

 

I think the pick your own crew adventure needs the quintessential male brawn character. Why play with prejudices without going all the way. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's pretty obvious that these "affirmative action" policies were necessary. Quite a lot of evidence that pro offshore teams otherwise only will look for big guys with a ton of experience. Gone are the days when you could have a dedicated chef and toast master on-board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's pretty obvious that these "affirmative action" policies were necessary. Quite a lot of evidence that pro offshore teams otherwise only will look for big guys with a ton of experience. Gone are the days when you could have a dedicated chef and toast master on-board.

 

Yeah, and it's the same with the sub 30 rule. But since that's about males, there's no hysteria about it. Everybody sees the point, it's about giving younger sailors a chance that would otherwise be difficult for them to get. So now they also have a very strong incentive to give more women a chance. Nothing to cry about, they will all turn out great. Why on EARTH wouldn't they.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, so its already 2017, race year. Anyone care to name a few great female sailors signed up yet?

 

You go first and give us a full crew list for any team, male or female.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

OK, so its already 2017, race year. Anyone care to name a few great female sailors signed up yet?

 

You go first and give us a full crew list for any team, male or female.

 

so you can't name even one girl?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

OK, so its already 2017, race year. Anyone care to name a few great female sailors signed up yet?

 

You go first and give us a full crew list for any team, male or female.

 

so you can't name even one girl?

 

 

 

 

No I can't, haven't seen any crew lists yet. But I'd be surprised if any team chooses to go with just 7 men. Ian Walker said it would be stupid. So I'm sure we'll see women on most of the teams.

 

Why, are you saying that we won't see any women? Wanna bet?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We suspect this little nugget is simply yet another example of the mess that is the Vendee Globe's official English coverage, but maybe - just maybe - there's more to the lower/thirds title slip up caught by an observant Anarchist watching the 28 Dec "Vendee Live" show on Facebook.

Look carefully under Alex Thomson team member "Neal McDonald" and you'll note it says "Alex Thomson Racing Volvo Race Skipper", and we're not quite sure why. Did the VG producer simply forget to put Mac's 'title' on another line, or did someone sending over title graphics make a freudian slip because they know too much? Could it be possible that Alex - and Hugo Boss's - next big challenge will be a crewed one? VOR boss Mark Turner and Thomson go way back and there's precious little going on in IMOCA world for quite some time...and of course, much stranger things have happened. What do you think?

5 times already the last time on Telefonica...curtains definitely down for him. Someone simply forget to double line or insert the word "Ex" in front of Volvo Skipper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my new VOR concept the next stop over would be revealed on the day after the departure. The crew would also include a random celebrity who would be kidnapped on-board. You would also have to deliver video proof that you can heave to for a min of 24h

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my new VOR concept the next stop over would be revealed on the day after the departure. The crew would also include a random celebrity who would be kidnapped on-board. You would also have to deliver video proof that you can heave to for a min of 24h

 

Jonas, did you watch Celebrity Farm tonight....? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

10 months to the start and still only 2 confirmed teams? Didn't Vestas commit to 2 campaigns?

Maybe they burnt the budget by having almost 2 boats in the last race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So it isn't about women in sailing at all. It is about spectacle. You found the idea of women competing against men compelling, and thus decide that you now know enough to tell the women sailors what they should think, do and need. Congratulations for embodying everything you claim to deride in the patriarchal society.

Sarcasm remains the lowest form of wit.
I wasn't being sarcastic. You clearly have no idea how offensive your attitude is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

OK, so its already 2017, race year. Anyone care to name a few great female sailors signed up yet?

 

Marie Riou

I saw that too in a (French) interview with Billy Besson. I think it was via a link from the Multihull Appreciation Society Facebook group. He's re-upping on Nacra 17s for Tokyo but Marie is off to sail with Charles Caulrelier in the VOR so he's getting a new crew. Besson had a nice comment that Iker tired to do both VOR and N17 last time and didn't win either! So it makes sense to concentrate on one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

OK, so its already 2017, race year. Anyone care to name a few great female sailors signed up yet?

Marie Riou

I saw that too in a (French) interview with Billy Besson. I think it was via a link from the Multihull Appreciation Society Facebook group. He's re-upping on Nacra 17s for Tokyo but Marie is off to sail with Charles Caulrelier in the VOR so he's getting a new crew. Besson had a nice comment that Iker tired to do both VOR and N17 last time and didn't win either! So it makes sense to concentrate on one.

 

Makes sense. A VOR campaign will really affect your fitness level adversely, despite being beneficial for the overall experience. The biggest problem though is that it's very time consuming

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

OK, so its already 2017, race year. Anyone care to name a few great female sailors signed up yet?

Marie Riou

 

Thanks, I didn't know.

 

Since this rule was added its been obvious that the Male skippers are virtually forced to pick some girls, or go with a too small crew for the job.

I looked up Marie's sailing CV and didn't see any ocean racing. I guess she will indeed get the opportunity to learn, and good for her, but excuse me if I don't assume she will get a job this time where she will be seen by the public as a high profile crew member. I would say she likely has only been selected because of the positive discrimination rule, which is a bit sad.

 

Her selection, if chosen for an all female boat would have been seen in a very different light though, of course.

 

So far then, still no female ocean racers with proven ocean racing ability selected on merit? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^although lacking a solid offshore background, she and Billy did dominate the Nacra17 class for several years. Olympic sailors who are motivated to go offshore tend be great assets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

OK, so its already 2017, race year. Anyone care to name a few great female sailors signed up yet?

Marie Riou

 

Thanks, I didn't know.

 

Since this rule was added its been obvious that the Male skippers are virtually forced to pick some girls, or go with a too small crew for the job.

I looked up Marie's sailing CV and didn't see any ocean racing. I guess she will indeed get the opportunity to learn, and good for her, but excuse me if I don't assume she will get a job this time where she will be seen by the public as a high profile crew member. I would say she likely has only been selected because of the positive discrimination rule, which is a bit sad.

 

 

This is the intention of the rule. It is not sad, it's positive. It's the way to go for the future, cause having no rules didn't work.

 

She's obviously a very competent sailor! The need to be seen as high profile is your own and probably not hers. Why do you assume that everybody wants to be high profile?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

OK, so its already 2017, race year. Anyone care to name a few great female sailors signed up yet?

Marie Riou

 

Thanks, I didn't know.

 

Since this rule was added its been obvious that the Male skippers are virtually forced to pick some girls, or go with a too small crew for the job.

I looked up Marie's sailing CV and didn't see any ocean racing. I guess she will indeed get the opportunity to learn, and good for her, but excuse me if I don't assume she will get a job this time where she will be seen by the public as a high profile crew member. I would say she likely has only been selected because of the positive discrimination rule, which is a bit sad.

 

 

This is the intention of the rule. It is not sad, it's positive. It's the way to go for the future, cause having no rules didn't work.

 

She's obviously a very competent sailor! The need to be seen as high profile is your own and probably not hers. Why do you assume that everybody wants to be high profile?

 

Call it what you will, social engineering, positive discrimination, political correctness? the VOR a reality show and not a sailing race? One thing is for sure, it works against clear selection of crewmembers on relevant sailing ability.

 

I feel sorry for Marie because, with this rule in place it can never be clear if she has been selected in fair competition for her sailing abilities, or if she has been selected in place of a better male sailor simply because Charles has been virtually forced by the new rule to pick a girl or two. Would Marie have this ride if the rule wasn't there? I would like to think it was selection on merit, but how can I know?

I am not alone in believing positive discrimination usually does the opposite of what its proponents are aiming to achieve. You are entitled to have a different view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

OK, so its already 2017, race year. Anyone care to name a few great female sailors signed up yet?

Marie Riou

 

Thanks, I didn't know.

 

Since this rule was added its been obvious that the Male skippers are virtually forced to pick some girls, or go with a too small crew for the job.

I looked up Marie's sailing CV and didn't see any ocean racing. I guess she will indeed get the opportunity to learn, and good for her, but excuse me if I don't assume she will get a job this time where she will be seen by the public as a high profile crew member. I would say she likely has only been selected because of the positive discrimination rule, which is a bit sad.

 

 

This is the intention of the rule. It is not sad, it's positive. It's the way to go for the future, cause having no rules didn't work.

 

She's obviously a very competent sailor! The need to be seen as high profile is your own and probably not hers. Why do you assume that everybody wants to be high profile?

 

Call it what you will, social engineering, positive discrimination, political correctness? the VOR a reality show and not a sailing race? One thing is for sure, it works against clear selection of crewmembers on relevant sailing ability.

 

I feel sorry for Marie because, with this rule in place it can never be clear if she has been selected in fair competition for her sailing abilities, or if she has been selected in place of a better male sailor simply because Charles has been virtually forced by the new rule to pick a girl or two. Would Marie have this ride if the rule wasn't there? I would like to think it was selection on merit, but how can I know?

I am not alone in believing positive discrimination usually does the opposite of what its proponents are aiming to achieve. You are entitled to have a different view.

 

 

They have some rules that are made to give chances to people: women and men under 30.

 

I guess Marie is happy to be asked! She knows that she has been selected from a group of female sailors, and is probably very proud. She would not have had this ride without this rule. Now she has it, and has been given a golden opportunity to prove that she can do a good job.

 

In my parts of the world positive discrimination is used everywhere, successfully. Of course, sometimes a female executive does a bad job and there are always some people who says "oh, women can't do this job". But men do bad jobs all the time as executives, and I've never heard anybody say "oh, MEN can't do this job". Of course, none of the statements are right. Individuals do good or bad jobs, not genders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^although lacking a solid offshore background, she and Billy did dominate the Nacra17 class for several years. Olympic sailors who are motivated to go offshore tend be great assets.

I don't know anything of Marie's ocean sailing experience but sailing a small boat in daylight in conditions deemed suitable for an olymic race does not prepare a sailor for dealing with ocean storm conditions whilst racing full out at top professional level at night. Without several years ocean sailing experience building up to racing the oceans in fast boats at a professional level in races less demanding than the VOR, one might question wherther any person, male or female, without such a career background might be a liability rather than an asset in such conditions which every VOR crew is likely to face. Lives have been lost in this event.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

^although lacking a solid offshore background, she and Billy did dominate the Nacra17 class for several years. Olympic sailors who are motivated to go offshore tend be great assets.

I don't know anything of Marie's ocean sailing experience but sailing a small boat in daylight in conditions deemed suitable for an olymic race does not prepare a sailor for dealing with ocean storm conditions whilst racing full out at top professional level at night. Without several years ocean sailing experience building up to racing the oceans in fast boats at a professional level in races less demanding than the VOR, one might question wherther any person, male or female, without such a career background might be a liability rather than an asset in such conditions which every VOR crew is likely to face. Lives have been lost in this event.

 

 

You keep getting more and more condescending....now you worry that she will be a liability and maybe die. What's wrong with you? Do you really not think that the skipper is able to pick a crew that is well capable for the race????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think Rob Greenhalgh had a lot of offshore experience before doing his first Volvo, he seemed to do quite well.

 

What about the guys on Dongfeng last time, or Abu Dhabi?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think Rob Greenhalgh had a lot of offshore experience before doing his first Volvo, he seemed to do quite well.

 

What about the guys on Dongfeng last time, or Abu Dhabi?

 

Sorry, you need 10 years of around the world racing experience before you are allowed to join VOR team.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you look closely at the photo of UBox in Hobart (on the front page) you will see Marie standing at the back of the guys with the orange cap pull down so don't write her off.

 

Apparently she impressed and gelled well with the guys. No one can say she has no ocean miles any more. At least 628 Nm to her credit after the RS2HYC.

 

And "Forss" you are dead wrong. Horace, Black & Wolf (DFRT) all had NO experience of ocean racing when they first started a leg of the last Volvo and only an idiot would NOT remove the "rookie" tag from them now.

 

And in case you hadn't noticed the team came 3rd overall in spite of a mast breakage 250 Nm west of Cape horn which gave them maximum points for that leg.

 

See ya on the water.

 

SS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Should have added *joke* tag.

 

Ofcourse you don't have to be born with years of ocean racing experience.

Lots of olympic/match race sailors have jumped to top ocean racing level without any problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

...now you worry that she will be a liability and maybe die. What's wrong with you? Do you really not think that the skipper is able to pick a crew that is well capable for the race????

 

There have in recent VOR's been examples where skippers have not been entirely free to select their crew and people I consider inadequately experienced have ended up on boats. This was the case for at least 2 boats in the last race (and no I'm not going to name them).

 

This is tough on the skippers concerned because they cannot rely on inexperienced people in an emergency situation, and yes I do worry about such people's safety. Sorry if that offends you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

...now you worry that she will be a liability and maybe die. What's wrong with you? Do you really not think that the skipper is able to pick a crew that is well capable for the race????

 

There have in recent VOR's been examples where skippers have not been entirely free to select their crew and people I consider inadequately experienced have ended up on boats. This was the case for at least 2 boats in the last race (and no I'm not going to name them).

This is tough on the skippers concerned because they cannot rely on inexperienced people in an emergency situation, and yes I do worry about such people's safety. Sorry if that offends you.

Well I'm sure all the teams will be in contact soon to have you vet the crew lists for sufficient experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You two need to get a room.

Thanks for your input Jack, insightful as ever.
Well if push comes to shove...this is not a race for ladies....well it didn't used to be untill the wall came down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting I am getting flak from all sides on this but only NorbowGirl actually reads what I write and has the courage to give her opinion - respect to her.

 

All you other guys are just making snide and sarcastic remarks, typical male sailors!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You and Trump!

 

 

I am not alone in believing positive discrimination usually does the opposite of what its proponents are aiming to achieve. You are entitled to have a different view.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

This is tough on the skippers concerned because they cannot rely on inexperienced people in an emergency situation, and yes I do worry about such people's safety. Sorry if that offends you.

 

 

 

It doesn't offend me, but it might offend Marie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

debating the ignorant gets old quickly

 

 

Interesting I am getting flak from all sides on this but only NorbowGirl actually reads what I write and has the courage to give her opinion - respect to her.

 

All you other guys are just making snide and sarcastic remarks, typical male sailors!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You and Trump!

 

 

I am not alone in believing positive discrimination usually does the opposite of what its proponents are aiming to achieve. You are entitled to have a different view.

 

 

 

 

..and more than 50% of the USA presumably!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

This is tough on the skippers concerned because they cannot rely on inexperienced people in an emergency situation, and yes I do worry about such people's safety. Sorry if that offends you.

 

 

 

It doesn't offend me, but it might offend Marie.

 

 

 

an old man with no ocean racing experience opining that one of the best sailors anywhere cannot be relied on...meh, she's got a thicker skin than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seriously? I thought only Americans were this intentionally ignorant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You and Trump!

 

 

I am not alone in believing positive discrimination usually does the opposite of what its proponents are aiming to achieve. You are entitled to have a different view.

 

 

 

 

..and more than 50% of the USA presumably!

 

 

 

 

Screen Shot 2017-01-03 at 8.57.51 AM.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No problem. Growing the sport for emerging nations (genders, races, body types, ages, fill-in-the-blank_________) is done with rules/ money. Seems to work for age and nationality, and the latest rule for gender, as Sam and Mark Turner said, has evolved. So, we'll see. Seems sensible.

 

IMHO, any crew selected by _______ detracts from the race. Nationality, for example. Last time there were nominal 'national' teams, but because all teams had mixed nationalities on board, the 'rivalries/predjudices' were not allowed to dominate the forum. Good. Maybe this time gender will not dominate the thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe this time gender will not dominate the thread.

 

 

I appreciate your optimism! Looking at this thread up until now though I fear for the worst..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The whole point of the rule is to encourage the development of female offshore sailors and I think a wonderful way to do that is to incorporate the female sailors who currently compete at a very high level in the Olympic classes and match racing(Marie).

 

Staysail, it seems you are suggesting that these Skippers are someone obligated to pick from the proportionately small group of female sailors who have done the race(which I'm sure they will) but not consider talented sailors with little offshore experience. That's bullshit. Look at Iker Martinez, Rob Greenlaugh and then the Americans Charlie Enright and Mark Towill who both came from college sailing(with some coastal and offshore in between).

 

Your comments are both ignorant and condescending.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seriously? I thought only Americans were this intentionally ignorant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You and Trump!

 

 

I am not alone in believing positive discrimination usually does the opposite of what its proponents are aiming to achieve. You are entitled to have a different view.

 

 

 

 

..and more than 50% of the USA presumably!

 

 

 

 

Seems you wan't to redefine your democracy when it doesn't give you the result you want!

We have similar guys in the UK who quote similar statistics about Brexit. All sad people who can't accept a result when they lose.

 

I thought the thread was about VOR, not politics! Try reading the thread and what I have actually written before making comments Clean.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rules like this aren't new. They exist in collegiate Keelboat sailing in both American and Canadian regattas along with the Student Yachting World Cup. These are minor events by comparison but at a collegiate level these rules help give great female sailors opportunities that they wouldn't normally get as they aren't as big or strong as most males. A lot of competitive classes have weight limits that cause skippers to pick crew by weight, do these rules also detract from the quality? I don't think so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rules like this aren't new. They exist in collegiate Keelboat sailing in both American and Canadian regattas along with the Student Yachting World Cup. These are minor events by comparison but at a collegiate level these rules help give great female sailors opportunities that they wouldn't normally get as they aren't as big or strong as most males. A lot of competitive classes have weight limits that cause skippers to pick crew by weight, do these rules also detract from the quality? I don't think so.

If you think weight and total crew physical power is the issue, (and why not?) there is a very simple way to deal with this without positive discrimination.

 

Simply put no upper limit on crew numbers or weight. If a group of women happen to be lighter individually, they can take more crew numbers before the overall boat becomes too heavy to perform and too crowded to live on.

 

There has to be a maximum crew weight above which the boat with crew and food etc. will be too heavy to perform and too crowded to live on. Let the team decide how many people male, female, mixed up if you want, to have in the crew. Logically I can't see why anyone would want to sail with less than 8 or more than 11 on these boats but why not leave that choice to the skippers?

 

This was essentially the formula applied to the last race except that it was an imposed rule that the women could have more people to compensate for lower physical power, (some people even argued that gave them an unfair advantage!!) but if there are no rules about crew number you have a level playing field. SCA has already proved that women can win VOR race legs. With a bit more practice women or mixed crews could win the event on a level playing field.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think one problem is that he whole crewed offshore scene is a bit of a mess in the sense that there isn't really a clear path to the pinnacle of the sport, the VOR. The longer offshore races are mostly owner driven handicap races, spread around the world with teams doing maybe a couple of races a year. So a young and aspiring VOR sailor who would want to go the "offshore route",would probably anyway be forced to do a lot of fleet course racing or match racing to advance her career.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The women I know who have had ambitions to race professionally, offshore and ocean, have mostly gone the single-handed route. Mini-Transat, Figaro, or shorthanded in Class 40, that can be done without impossible budgets, then they try and get sponsorship and an Imoca. A good performance single-handed does tend to get noticed.

Pretty hard for a girl, however good, to get deserved recognition in a crew which is mainly male.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The women I know who have had ambitions to race professionally, offshore and ocean, have mostly gone the single-handed route. Mini-Transat, Figaro, or shorthanded in Class 40, that can be done without impossible budgets, then they try and get sponsorship and an Imoca. A good performance single-handed does tend to get noticed.

Pretty hard for a girl, however good, to get deserved recognition in a crew which is mainly male.

 

That's backed by comments Andrew Pindar (GAC Pindar, Volvo supplier) made on today's VG Live that aspiring sailors need to start small and prove their determination and commitment over many years before they can expect major funding. He referred to Coville's 18 yr commitment to and with Sodebo, Alex Thomson's career, and he praised Conrad Colman's current example as leading to a promising future. Starts at 21 minutes on http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5786cc_the-vendee-live-of-the-3rd-january-vendee-globe_sport

 

But that's solo. Gender doesn't seem a limit there. Team sponsorship? Different model, but maybe the soloists who have made a name for themselves use solo sailing to become attractive to a team's sponsors. In the meantime the VOR's new rules should help VOR-team newbies get the experience they'd need before they can become skippers of a team. Hope we don't have to wait 18 years to find out. Of course, are great soloists best on a team? They might find it a step down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The women you know, or the women you have heard of? Happy to hear your anecdotal evidence of a real person, but leave the strawmen and women out of it.

 

The women I know who have had ambitions to race professionally, offshore and ocean, have mostly gone the single-handed route. Mini-Transat, Figaro, or shorthanded in Class 40, that can be done without impossible budgets, then they try and get sponsorship and an Imoca. A good performance single-handed does tend to get noticed.

Pretty hard for a girl, however good, to get deserved recognition in a crew which is mainly male.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The women you know, or the women you have heard of? Happy to hear your anecdotal evidence of a real person, but leave the strawmen and women out of it.

 

The women I know who have had ambitions to race professionally, offshore and ocean, have mostly gone the single-handed route. Mini-Transat, Figaro, or shorthanded in Class 40, that can be done without impossible budgets, then they try and get sponsorship and an Imoca. A good performance single-handed does tend to get noticed.

Pretty hard for a girl, however good, to get deserved recognition in a crew which is mainly male.

 

Read my words Clean. Your question is already answered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  1. If the local organising authorities would allow it, having the VOR boats slot into respected ocean races as pit stop legs would raise the profile with non-sailors. For example; when the VO60s did the Sydney/Hobart as a leg (2002?) that was extraordinary.

Clean, Genny and Skip Novak excepted, something has to be done about the deplorable commentary.

In-port onboard footage needs to return.

Live-cams from the boats would be awesome, I'd keep a couple open constantly.

Lastly, any team that doesn't offer Armel Le Cleach a navigator gig would be mad. His ability to pick his way through these systems has been incredible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The women you know, or the women you have heard of? Happy to hear your anecdotal evidence of a real person, but leave the strawmen and women out of it.

 

The women I know who have had ambitions to race professionally, offshore and ocean, have mostly gone the single-handed route. Mini-Transat, Figaro, or shorthanded in Class 40, that can be done without impossible budgets, then they try and get sponsorship and an Imoca. A good performance single-handed does tend to get noticed.

Pretty hard for a girl, however good, to get deserved recognition in a crew which is mainly male.

 

Read my words Clean. Your question is already answered.

 

 

which women?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

The women you know, or the women you have heard of? Happy to hear your anecdotal evidence of a real person, but leave the strawmen and women out of it.

 

The women I know who have had ambitions to race professionally, offshore and ocean, have mostly gone the single-handed route. Mini-Transat, Figaro, or shorthanded in Class 40, that can be done without impossible budgets, then they try and get sponsorship and an Imoca. A good performance single-handed does tend to get noticed.

Pretty hard for a girl, however good, to get deserved recognition in a crew which is mainly male.

 

Read my words Clean. Your question is already answered.

 

 

which women?

 

 

Talk about a dog with a bone! I wrote what I wanted to write, no more, no less in my post which is true and didn't even seem very controversial to me. Let me repeat myself since you seem incapable of understanding plain English.

 

"The women I know who have had ambitions to race professionally, offshore and ocean ....."

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand english fine, and I'm also good at recognizing when someone has a weak argument they can only support with straw. You ignore so many with your simplistic arguments, and you support them with evidence like "the women I know..."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The women you know, or the women you have heard of? Happy to hear your anecdotal evidence of a real person, but leave the strawmen and women out of it.

 

The women I know who have had ambitions to race professionally, offshore and ocean, have mostly gone the single-handed route. Mini-Transat, Figaro, or shorthanded in Class 40, that can be done without impossible budgets, then they try and get sponsorship and an Imoca. A good performance single-handed does tend to get noticed.

Pretty hard for a girl, however good, to get deserved recognition in a crew which is mainly male.

 

Read my words Clean. Your question is already answered.

 

 

which women?

 

 

Talk about a dog with a bone! I wrote what I wanted to write, no more, no less in my post which is true and didn't even seem very controversial to me. Let me repeat myself since you seem incapable of understanding plain English.

 

"The women I know who have had ambitions to race professionally, offshore and ocean ....."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clean, you really won't let this one go will you, but what exactly is the part of my post which you are taking issue with? You have not yet told me what your problem is. I really didn't think it was very controversial. Stief who is the only other member to respond basically seemed to agree with it and said "That's backed by comments Andrew Pindar (GAC Pindar, Volvo supplier) made on today's VG Live....."

 

You are the only one making aggressive comments to this particular post and you refer to a "weak arguement" ? I wasn't aware that this particular post was an arguement. Rather it was written simply as an observation and my conclusion based on that observation.

 

Perhaps I can help you if you make your point clearly, but seriously you will not get me to list my female acquaintences for you by name on a public forum!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

OK, so its already 2017, race year. Anyone care to name a few great female sailors signed up yet?

 

Marie Riou

Thanks, I didn't know.

 

Since this rule was added its been obvious that the Male skippers are virtually forced to pick some girls, or go with a too small crew for the job.

I looked up Marie's sailing CV and didn't see any ocean racing. I guess she will indeed get the opportunity to learn, and good for her, but excuse me if I don't assume she will get a job this time where she will be seen by the public as a high profile crew member. I would say she likely has only been selected because of the positive discrimination rule, which is a bit sad.

This is the intention of the rule. It is not sad, it's positive. It's the way to go for the future, cause having no rules didn't work.

 

She's obviously a very competent sailor! The need to be seen as high profile is your own and probably not hers. Why do you assume that everybody wants to be high profile?

Call it what you will, social engineering, positive discrimination, political correctness? the VOR a reality show and not a sailing race? One thing is for sure, it works against clear selection of crewmembers on relevant sailing ability.

 

I feel sorry for Marie because, with this rule in place it can never be clear if she has been selected in fair competition for her sailing abilities, or if she has been selected in place of a better male sailor simply because Charles has been virtually forced by the new rule to pick a girl or two. Would Marie have this ride if the rule wasn't there? I would like to think it was selection on merit, but how can I know?

I am not alone in believing positive discrimination usually does the opposite of what its proponents are aiming to achieve. You are entitled to have a different view.

Political correctness is a doctrine - fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream ( i.e. leftist ) media - which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end!

 

Nothing to do with you, Alan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although these new rules certainly promote progressive values, it's still a business decision that has to be backed up by numbers and if it turns out to be a failure, someone will be held accountable.

 

Also I think that some solo sailors, despite being highly skilled in their own right, won't necessarily function as well as a member of a team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Also I think that some solo sailors, despite being highly skilled in their own right, won't necessarily function as well as a member of a team.

The flip side of the coin being that once a woman has made her name in single handed racing, folk suddenly forget all about her previous great sailing career in non-solo racing where she got little recognition. They start labelling her as just a "Solo Sailor". Bit of a Catch 22 really.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

La,

 

Is positive discrimination an ideal solution? - No

 

Can you endlessly debate against positive discrimination? - Yes

 

Do I currently see a better way to increase the participation of others than white males in the 30-50 year age bracket - No

 

So, imperfect as it is, I think its a good step for the VOR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

The women you know, or the women you have heard of? Happy to hear your anecdotal evidence of a real person, but leave the strawmen and women out of it.

 

The women I know who have had ambitions to race professionally, offshore and ocean, have mostly gone the single-handed route. Mini-Transat, Figaro, or shorthanded in Class 40, that can be done without impossible budgets, then they try and get sponsorship and an Imoca. A good performance single-handed does tend to get noticed.

Pretty hard for a girl, however good, to get deserved recognition in a crew which is mainly male.

Read my words Clean. Your question is already answered.

which women?

Talk about a dog with a bone! I wrote what I wanted to write, no more, no less in my post which is true and didn't even seem very controversial to me. Let me repeat myself since you seem incapable of understanding plain English.

 

"The women I know who have had ambitions to race professionally, offshore and ocean ....."

 

And which women would that be? Meaning, cite a name of any woman that you personally know, on a first name basis, that either is a professional offshore sailor or has ambitions to be one. And your granddaughter doesn't count. Pretty sure that's Clean's point. You're grasping at straws trying to make a point that you know fuck-all about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

And which women would that be? Meaning, cite a name of any woman that you personally know, on a first name basis, that either is a professional offshore sailor or has ambitions to be one. And your granddaughter doesn't count. Pretty sure that's Clean's point. You're grasping at straws trying to make a point that you know fuck-all about.

 

Are you Clean under another alias?

 

Read the posts in the thread!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

And which women would that be? Meaning, cite a name of any woman that you personally know, on a first name basis, that either is a professional offshore sailor or has ambitions to be one. And your granddaughter doesn't count. Pretty sure that's Clean's point. You're grasping at straws trying to make a point that you know fuck-all about.

 

Are you Clean under another alias?

 

Read the posts in the thread!

You're becoming a tiresome cunt about this, just saying. 😊

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one agrees with you about anything staysail, especially since it is so obvious you have no relevant knowledge of how the commercial side of sailing works. If you have real world experience, great - share it. Otherwise, my goal is simply to make sure every reader knows that your opinions are entirely fanboy shit with no basis in reality.

 

 

 

 

Clean, you really won't let this one go will you, but what exactly is the part of my post which you are taking issue with? You have not yet told me what your problem is. I really didn't think it was very controversial. Stief who is the only other member to respond basically seemed to agree with it and said "That's backed by comments Andrew Pindar (GAC Pindar, Volvo supplier) made on today's VG Live....."

 

You are the only one making aggressive comments to this particular post and you refer to a "weak arguement" ? I wasn't aware that this particular post was an arguement. Rather it was written simply as an observation and my conclusion based on that observation.

 

Perhaps I can help you if you make your point clearly, but seriously you will not get me to list my female acquaintences for you by name on a public forum!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I don't think Rob Greenhalgh had a lot of offshore experience before doing his first Volvo, he seemed to do quite well.

 

What about the guys on Dongfeng last time, or Abu Dhabi?

 

Sorry, you need 10 years of around the world racing experience before you are allowed to join VOR team.

 

 

Stretching a point but Rob would barely be out of wearing shorts if that were the case.

 

Seriously - I reckon Rob was in his late 20's when he sailed on ABN Ambro and he certainly had some offshore experience at that point though how much I don't know.

 

In any case perhaps it's probably about time we saw more female participation in our sport through all levels of the game. Rightly or wrongly it's one of the issues that World Sailing (I hate that name) are currently trying to get their heads around even if it's only because the IOC are putting them under the cosh.

 

PS Political correctness generally pisses me off - even Totenham Hotspurs fans are not allowed to call themselves yiddos anymore and I'm an Arsenal Fan. If you know anything about English football ( Soccer for you septics - we are the limeys) you will get the jist of my point.

 

Peace and love and please a sense of humour xxx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I generally don't really like terms like "political correctness" or "SJW" , because in many cases, the person using them is too lazy to actually dig into the real issue.

 

Edit: ....and back to sailing....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I generally don't really like terms like "political correctness" or "SJW" , because in many cases, the person using them is too lazy to actually dig into the real issue.

 

Edit: ....and back to sailing....

 

Political correctness is a doctrine - fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream (i.e. leftist) media - which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...so back to sailing..... :) .....interesting to note that of the skippers of the previous winning syndicates since the 97-98 race, Frank Cammas was the only one with a huge offshore experience when entering his first VOR. All the other ones had mostly Olympic and course racing experience in general. Partly this is due to the fact that apart for France and maybe NZ, offshore racing hasn't had that high of a status, but it also shows that there are different paths to success.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

No one agrees with you about anything staysail, especially since it is so obvious you have no relevant knowledge of how the commercial side of sailing works. If you have real world experience, great - share it. Otherwise, my goal is simply to make sure every reader knows that your opinions are entirely fanboy shit with no basis in reality.

 

 

 

 

Well folks, coming from Clean, our favourite self-styled top sailing expert with the real world experience of a Methuseleh and the wisdom of Solomon, I reckon this is a welcome compliment!

 

Here is a lady who did more for women in ocean sailing than any others, and without any positive discrimination that I know of, (I'm sure Clean will put me right if that's not the case!) Check out the subsequent sailing careers of her crews on Maiden and Royal and Sun Alliance. The sport needs a few more like her!

post-35226-0-89709100-1483700078_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

No one agrees with you about anything staysail, especially since it is so obvious you have no relevant knowledge of how the commercial side of sailing works. If you have real world experience, great - share it. Otherwise, my goal is simply to make sure every reader knows that your opinions are entirely fanboy shit with no basis in reality.

 

 

 

 

Well folks, coming from Clean, our favourite self-styled top sailing expert with the real world experience of a Methuseleh and the wisdom of Solomon, I reckon this is a welcome compliment!

 

Here is a lady who did more for women in ocean sailing than any others, and without any positive discrimination that I know of, (I'm sure Clean will put me right if that's not the case!) Check out the subsequent sailing careers of her crews on Maiden and Royal and Sun Alliance. The sport needs a few more like her!

I thought you said the sport already has women like her, but they're not getting the chances they deserve because of evil misogynistic men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

No one agrees with you about anything staysail, especially since it is so obvious you have no relevant knowledge of how the commercial side of sailing works. If you have real world experience, great - share it. Otherwise, my goal is simply to make sure every reader knows that your opinions are entirely fanboy shit with no basis in reality.

 

 

 

 

Well folks, coming from Clean, our favourite self-styled top sailing expert with the real world experience of a Methuseleh and the wisdom of Solomon, I reckon this is a welcome compliment!

 

Here is a lady who did more for women in ocean sailing than any others, and without any positive discrimination that I know of, (I'm sure Clean will put me right if that's not the case!) Check out the subsequent sailing careers of her crews on Maiden and Royal and Sun Alliance. The sport needs a few more like her!

I thought you said the sport already has women like her, but they're not getting the chances they deserve because of evil misogynistic men.

 

She gave many good female sailors a big leg up on the professional ladder because as well as a sailor, she could put projects together. We don't see many women now with the same ambition to get projects going. I can't think of anyone comparable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the problem isn't the male dominated sport, the problem is that there aren't any women comparable to Tracy Edwards? That's what I hear you saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the problem isn't the male dominated sport, the problem is that there aren't any women comparable to Tracy Edwards? That's what I hear you saying.

Well, if there has only been one like Tracy and there have been many male run and male crewed projects, and very few female equivalents, that would make it male dominated, or am I missing something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

there has only been one like Tracy

 

 

 

Well that sure is true! I think you may have missed the reason why Tracey Edwards pro sailing career ended, and why all the good she did unravelled so quickly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tracy's problems are no secret Clean (although of course you, fount of all sailing wisdom, will know more about that than anyone else on the planet) but you say "all the good she did unravelled..".

I guess you have checked that statement out, for example with the crewmembers of Royal and Sun Alliance ? Oh, silly me! Of course you have. You would never make such a bold statement without having solid evidence to back it up!

And by the way, she spells her first name "Tracy", - but of course you knew that too!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a bit of an irony that back in the 80's when the only sailors who actually were fit were the Finn sailors and despite that no one really considered women as serious racers apart from a few. I guess it was more about being "professional" with thw liquor that mattered in those days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

No one agrees with you about anything staysail, especially since it is so obvious you have no relevant knowledge of how the commercial side of sailing works. If you have real world experience, great - share it. Otherwise, my goal is simply to make sure every reader knows that your opinions are entirely fanboy shit with no basis in reality.

 

 

 

 

Well folks, coming from Clean, our favourite self-styled top sailing expert with the real world experience of a Methuseleh and the wisdom of Solomon, I reckon this is a welcome compliment!

 

Here is a lady who did more for women in ocean sailing than any others, and without any positive discrimination that I know of, (I'm sure Clean will put me right if that's not the case!) Check out the subsequent sailing careers of her crews on Maiden and Royal and Sun Alliance. The sport needs a few more like her!

I thought you said the sport already has women like her, but they're not getting the chances they deserve because of evil misogynistic men.

 

She gave many good female sailors a big leg up on the professional ladder because as well as a sailor, she could put projects together. We don't see many women now with the same ambition to get projects going. I can't think of anyone comparable.

 

 

TJV_HISTOIRE_Florence-color-e14526225735

 

How about Florence Arthaud? Winner of the Route de Rhum, and co-founder of the Jules Verne Trophy. Tituoan Lamazou often used to say that each JV race he silently dedicated to Florence because of the impact she had on French sailing.

 

Not too shabby.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

This is all just a desparate politically correct move and will do nothing to help women in sailing. To prove their sailing ability (and ROI value) women need to compete against men in this sport, not cosy up alongside them. Can you see any other reason why the most famous and most successful women sailors have all had to go down the solo-sailing route to make their names.

 

You said it well here, they should compete against men. Well, I fucking HATE to be on a female team - because it turns into a battle between the sexes. This battle is absolutely no fun and not what sailing should be about. I want to be there as a PERSON and not as a representative of women. Only if 50% of the fleet were female teams, would you remove this battle. And we all know that will never happen.

 

Having mixed crews is the only way to make female sailors a natural part of a team. They will be able to prove their sailing abilities without any focus on their sex.

 

 

Good point. If a "mixed" team is allowed with the under 30's rule, and as previously mentioned nobody batted an eyelid, why should a "mixed" team of the sexes be any different?

I did follow SCA as it was interesting seeing the all-girls mix it with the all-guys, but for female participation I think mixed teams is far better for the sport.

 

Volvo had to write in the rules for under 30's, this is no different?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will be a matchracing experience since only two teams subscribed so far.?

Charles Caudrelier, Simeon Tienpoint.

What happened with the enthusiasm of the other teams?

 

Team SCA

Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing

Dongfeng Race Team

Team Brunel

Alvimedica

MAPFRE

Team Vestas Wind

 

For the last team an opportunity to finally do the complete tour.

Is Vestas restored just for the beauty of sailing or to race?

 

Here is a link that Dong Feng is being refitted:

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/9334_Introducing-Dongfeng.html

 

For the beauty of sailing or to race the new VOR?

Or to race the international regatta's like Sydney Hobart, Fastnet, Voiles des St. Barth,

Heineken Regatta and RORC Carribean 600?

 

These boats have huge racing potentials..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will be a matchracing experience since only two teams subscribed so far.?

Charles Caudrelier, Simeon Tienpoint.

What happened with the enthusiasm of the other teams?

 

Team SCA

Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing

Dongfeng Race Team

Team Brunel

Alvimedica

MAPFRE

Team Vestas Wind

 

For the last team an opportunity to finally do the complete tour.

Is Vestas restored just for the beauty of sailing or to race?

 

Here is a link that Dong Feng is being refitted:

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/9334_Introducing-Dongfeng.html

 

For the beauty of sailing or to race the new VOR?

Or to race the international regatta's like Sydney Hobart, Fastnet, Voiles des St. Barth,

Heineken Regatta and RORC Carribean 600?

 

These boats have huge racing potentials..

 

 

Schakel, scroll up the thread to get answer to your questions about SCA, Alvimedica, Abu Dhabi and Vestas... From your list only Mapfre and possibly Brunel/Bekking are in for this edition. But since they are building an eight boat we should expect 7-8 boats at the start. Lots of speculation about who they are...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites