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Börni

C-Class LittleCup 2015

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Can anyone explain the rig canting mechanism that some of the boats are using?

 

How does it work? Do they just dump the rig over before tacking? Is there a purchase to haul the rig up to weather? How does this work on a 4-stay rig? Do they have a mechanism to lengthen the leeward shrouds as the windward ones are shortened?

 

Any insights/pictures much appreciated.

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It seems the trailing edge of element N°3, of the Rafale, is covered by Kevlar on its bottom part ?

 

Is it for security, to avoid carbon splinters, just in case the crew fall on the wing in a capzise?

 

Good Luck to all

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Unless Groupama have changed the way they work from the last Little Cup, there are no photos of exactly how the canting rig is set up, but we know enough to be able to describe it and replicate something similar.

 

If you look at the photos, you will notice that the shrouds attach to a white rope that is led forward. It is continuous to the other side and attaches to the other shroud. It runs through a pair of opposing Constrictor rope clutches so that on each tack, there is one taking the load. You cant the rig by letting it go to leeward before a tack or gybe (which can be seen on videos) and this is done by pulling the Constrictor release line. The rig cants to leeward, you gybe and the other Constrictor takes the load preventing teh rig slipping off to leeward again

 

I haven't seen the Groupama set up but have seen this system on another boat (an experimental A). In that case, the shroud and forestay on each side are joined about 1500mm from the top and attach to the mast as a single line. This means that as you "shorten" the shroud, it has an effect on the forestay as well.

 

Although you cannot see it, there is probably a system to allow them to cant the rig to windward if they do not have time before a tack or gybe. In its simplest form, all you need to do is to attach a rope to the middle of the continuous line between the shrouds and pull it. Of course, in reality, that rope has its own purchase system, because there is some load to pull the rig to windward like that.

 

The system is simple, but making it work in a tight space and neatly is something else. It has been suggested to me that it some of the system works within the mast and some inside the fairing of the main beam, but as said before, few if any outside the team have seen the actual system.

 

I hope that makes sense and if not, ask questions.

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Its all a bit rubbish, where is the live feedback - this class needs the oxygen of publicity to survive - we wanna see more!!!

 

I cant see a live link on www.abcclass.fr; I think that the wind has deserted the scene, and they are waiting for something to sail in.

 

Good update Juls, keep em coming.

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Is the live stream a replay? Or did Steve Clark cook up a solution to the trashed wing last night?

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Is the live stream a replay? Or did Steve Clark cook up a solution to the trashed wing last night?

You have to go to the Hydros page and use the link for day 2... Otherwise you will look at a replay yes!

 

No racing as of yet... No wind. They were expecting some about now but still nothing.

 

Not a single flag moving here... Big contrast to today.

 

All teams still out on the water.

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Its all a bit rubbish, where is the live feedback - this class needs the oxygen of publicity to survive - we wanna see more!!!

 

I cant see a live link on www.abcclass.fr; I think that the wind has deserted the scene, and they are waiting for something to sail in.

 

Good update Juls, keep em coming.

Thanks Norm. Shame you guys aren't here!

 

Will keep the thread alive as and when something happens.

 

Right now not much else to do than bird watching;)

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Norm, the first screen at the top is live when you click on it: http://abcclass.fr/

Race is postponed......

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Thanks; it didnt go live until after 11, but thanks. It looks like they are drifting. Hopefully the forecast sees more wind later in the week! It was always a danger with Geneva, but Sept looked OK in terms of avg windspeeds, the problem is, we had all of it yesterday!

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We've been out on the water since 11-ish but came back (media boat) since it's a drifter.

Sentient was able to ghost around, and Groupama tried to. Everyone else is just relaxing as much as possible.

Back in the press lounge and listening in on the VHF. All boats are still out there.

 

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There's chatter on the VHF but nothing conclusive across the course. Seeing winds in the 210-250 heading range at 3-5kts.

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There's been an increase in pressure to 7-10kts but the wind is still oscillating.

Sounds like they might be dropping marks soon.

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Unless Groupama have changed the way they work from the last Little Cup, there are no photos of exactly how the canting rig is set up, but we know enough to be able to describe it and replicate something similar.

 

If you look at the photos, you will notice that the shrouds attach to a white rope that is led forward. It is continuous to the other side and attaches to the other shroud. It runs through a pair of opposing Constrictor rope clutches so that on each tack, there is one taking the load. You cant the rig by letting it go to leeward before a tack or gybe (which can be seen on videos) and this is done by pulling the Constrictor release line. The rig cants to leeward, you gybe and the other Constrictor takes the load preventing teh rig slipping off to leeward again

 

I haven't seen the Groupama set up but have seen this system on another boat (an experimental A). In that case, the shroud and forestay on each side are joined about 1500mm from the top and attach to the mast as a single line. This means that as you "shorten" the shroud, it has an effect on the forestay as well.

 

Although you cannot see it, there is probably a system to allow them to cant the rig to windward if they do not have time before a tack or gybe. In its simplest form, all you need to do is to attach a rope to the middle of the continuous line between the shrouds and pull it. Of course, in reality, that rope has its own purchase system, because there is some load to pull the rig to windward like that.

 

The system is simple, but making it work in a tight space and neatly is something else. It has been suggested to me that it some of the system works within the mast and some inside the fairing of the main beam, but as said before, few if any outside the team have seen the actual system.

 

I hope that makes sense and if not, ask questions.

Simon, thank you for the detailed explanation. It makes sense in concept with respect to the shrouds. However, I'm still unclear on the forestay adjustment. It seems to me that joining the forestay and shroud before the hounds on each side would cause the rig to be unstable fore and aft. And I'm struggling to see how you can cant the rig without changing forestay length in concert with shroud length on a split forestay rig. Otherwise, wouldn't the rig rake way back as it cants? What am I missing? Thanks.

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The race is on here now:

Groupama 1000 meters in front!!

 

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Its all a bit rubbish, where is the live feedback - this class needs the oxygen of publicity to survive - we wanna see more!!!

 

I cant see a live link on www.abcclass.fr; I think that the wind has deserted the scene, and they are waiting for something to sail in.

 

Good update Juls, keep em coming.

 

It pains me to say it, but unless something fundamental changes in big AC world, the C-Class will probably go dormant again after this one. Who is going to spend the kind of money and effort required to build something faster and better than Franck's boat?

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Just got off the water.

Groupama was able to foil early and pull away. Big holes on the course. Axon's Benoit&Benoit know how to push their boat and do well in both windy and calm conditions, they had a good start but Groupama just flew away.

 

Clean, the question then ends up being how long will Groupama be in the class.

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I happen to have pictures of the GA canting arrangement under the tramp from 2013. Only got a few before being chased away by the shore crew but it was enough for me to decode the whole thing.

 

Simon is close. In essence the forestay is a loop and the shrouds are a loop. the rope clutches free the loops or lock them, down. The "back side" of the system, that you cannot see, has a purchase that allows one to put more load onto the shrouds to maintain tension if required.

 

Once the rope clutches are closed all four lines are of a fixed length and this makes the platform stiff. To tack or gybe, as described they unlock the clutches and the wing "dumps" to leeward". Then it's locked off again, you complete the turn and the wing ends up to windward.

 

We have a complete system mocked up in a shop that emulates the basic GA operating principals. We have designed a system ready to be installed on FYH. I've done all the schematics and the math, now it's just time, money and will power.

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Probably the quote of the day from Steve: "Did you see that kite boarder? He passed us! We never get passed like that."

 

Except by a Mach 2 or Exocet or most any other modern foiler or board...

 

 

When they are no longer faster than a production sailboat you can pick up for 15 grand and no longer creating world-first ideas, the appeal of the Class really suffers.

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Just got off the water.

Groupama was able to foil early and pull away. Big holes on the course. Axon's Benoit&Benoit know how to push their boat and do well in both windy and calm conditions, they had a good start but Groupama just flew away.

 

Clean, the question then ends up being how long will Groupama be in the class.

 

If they leave, whoever buys the boat becomes dominant, and with the AC doing the research and design work into foiling hardsailed cats, we're getting into the land of far diminished returns. That means real expense to beat a team that put more than a million euro into their C development. Big ask. makes me sad, but I don't see much way around it. Maybe more focus on the student efforts?

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Its fun to dream about all of these fancy systems, but it seems everyone could have been much better prepared by focusing on the basics. For example, a morphing gap in the wing. Before starting such an endeavor, did anyone study the gains around the race track? If they had, I can assure you the time would have been better spent on foils and foil control. The same goes for wing cant gizmos.

 

Groupama clearly has the best foil package. Just look that their rudders, they're long with coord tapering off to almost nothing at depth. By themselves, they are nicely optimized.

 

Then onto their foils, its clear they have a couple options, some more stable than others. The straighter foils have very long span lifting surfaces, undoubtedly their light air package. Makes sense, long span will help foil at lower speeds. The straight vertical part ensures they don't loose too much righting arm. Seems like a good idea for light wind lake sailing.

 

The design brief from now on should be as follows. Step 1, build foils that get the hulls out of the water at all costs while not loosing too much righting arm! You're going to need more than one set of shapes, depending on the venue. Step 2, reduce the drag of the foils! Step 3, Copy a successful wing design or even go to soft sails so that you have more time to spend on the foils!

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Probably the quote of the day from Steve: "Did you see that kite boarder? He passed us! We never get passed like that."

Except by a Mach 2 or Exocet or most any other modern foiler or board...

 

 

When they are no longer faster than a production sailboat you can pick up for 15 grand and no longer creating world-first ideas, the appeal of the Class really suffers.

Clean, do you think the mentioned foilers would also beat Groupamas performance around the course? The speeds and angles were looking really good.

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Its all a bit rubbish, where is the live feedback - this class needs the oxygen of publicity to survive - we wanna see more!!!

 

I cant see a live link on www.abcclass.fr; I think that the wind has deserted the scene, and they are waiting for something to sail in.

 

Good update Juls, keep em coming.

 

It pains me to say it, but unless something fundamental changes in big AC world, the C-Class will probably go dormant again after this one. Who is going to spend the kind of money and effort required to build something faster and better than Franck's boat?

 

agree

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You're right Al.

 

Expensive dinosaurs...

 

hell the current foiling A class boats would beat most of the C fleet and stay in one piece over 15kts.

 

There are fleets of kids racing kite foils that would smoke them all. That's using second hand gear all up at <$5k.

 

And for all the $$ spent on the C boats and the Little mess regatta, you'd think they could muster up someone to shoot some live footage to post on the net.

 

Insert fork...

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Thanks M2 for all.

SA and all the sponsored sites have seemed to follow the Coutts model of total incompetence for even the most basic media coverage of this amazing event.

 

Not quite sure what that means PL; bringing the Little AC to Geneva meant that the majority of the media would never be able to afford covering it. Had the Swiss Franc dropped like the Euro, we might have been able to make it work...but it went the other way, and the coverage possibilities died off for anyone not within shouting distance.

 

What I can't understand is why the event organizers spent money on the virtual eye stuff, perhaps the dullest way possible to watch sailboat racing, and didn't just do some live video themselves. It was hard when we started back in the mid 2000s - it's a piece of cake today to do a basic one or two cam feed.

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Clean - try not to take this too personal, but your fanboy nature of really pimping something, like the C-Class when you're covering it, and damning it to the dustbin of history when you're not, is tiresome.

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There's traditionally a great interest in cooperation and exchange of ideas within the C-Class. Do you think that Groupama will be sharing all that they've learnt on this platform and make it public knowledge?

Who out there has the manpower and budget to come to a venue and test a quiver of foils with full analysis to figure out which ones will give you the best all round performance?

 

The morphing gap was a solution to build the boat on a 125k budget and the entire design brief for the ETS team was done on principle of simplicity, you then don't have to deal with a second element and it's associated controls. The issues with the ETS/Rafale project aren't fully related to the design of certain elements but also build quality (weight in this case). Yes, this might have been taken into account that novices were building their first boat but i guess that's a lesson learnt now.

 

Like it or not, this class isn't for those who want to buy off the shelf but rather build and innovate their own. It's somewhat ridiculous to compare flying phantoms to the C-Class. Yes they both go fast but they appeal to different sailors.

 

So all of your complaints are really just the fact that there aren't any America's Cup teams who've decided to enter the C-Class and compete head to head with Groupama?

 

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Clean - try not to take this too personal, but your fanboy nature of really pimping something, like the C-Class when you're covering it, and damning it to the dustbin of history when you're not, is tiresome.

This.

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The race is on here now:

Groupama 1000 meters in front!!

 

Oh dear, that's just embarrassing. So much for the "foilers will be slow in the light stuff", Groupama put paid to that concept.

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What I can't understand is why the event organizers spent money on the virtual eye stuff, perhaps the dullest way possible to watch sailboat racing, and didn't just do some live video themselves. It was hard when we started back in the mid 2000s - it's a piece of cake today to do a basic one or two cam feed.

This discussion came up in the Moth worlds thread. I'd much rather have the virtual eye style tracking than some shaky cam, we're not really sure who's winning or what's happening, "live" feed. With the digital stuff you can see the whole race course, see who's going to which side, know for sure who's who (none of this "That's X coming through for the win! Not wait it's someone else!") etc, etc. Both would be ideal, but if it's one or the other actual data wins for me every time. I'll accept it's just my opinion.

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What I can't understand is why the event organizers spent money on the virtual eye stuff, perhaps the dullest way possible to watch sailboat racing, and didn't just do some live video themselves. It was hard when we started back in the mid 2000s - it's a piece of cake today to do a basic one or two cam feed.

This discussion came up in the Moth worlds thread. I'd much rather have the virtual eye style tracking than some shaky cam, we're not really sure who's winning or what's happening, "live" feed. With the digital stuff you can see the whole race course, see who's going to which side, know for sure who's who (none of this "That's X coming through for the win! Not wait it's someone else!") etc, etc. Both would be ideal, but if it's one or the other actual data wins for me every time. I'll accept it's just my opinion.

 

 

Apples and banana Chris,

 

Everyone knows what a moth looks like foiling up and down hill, so you're right seeing the data on who's who in a huge fleet of identical looking boats is better.

 

With the C's, the compelling part of the spectacle is actually seeing the boats sail! Who really cares who's winning or not or who's on the left or right. We want to see new tech in action! And of course the crashes!

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I'm surprised no one has gone out, purchased a few drones with extra batteries to film stuff like this. The footage would be vastly superior to what you can shoot from a powerboat, and the budget not much greater.


Clean - try not to take this too personal, but your fanboy nature of really pimping something, like the C-Class when you're covering it, and damning it to the dustbin of history when you're not, is tiresome.

Seconded.

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Many people here seem very quick to forget that it's because of a fundementally unconstrained design space like the c-class that the wing was developed in the first place. The fact that the America's Cup is now an enormous copy of the Little America's Cup is proof of the value of such design spaces. Wouldn't have happened any other way. Not really a big deal and the C-class in itsself need not be cherished or permanently preserved. It could vanish tomorrow and the key objective of its existence would already have been achieved. But it's worth noting that there's nothing slower than rules and the C has only seven. Ultimately the moth and the A class will top out again and the Phantom will be an OD fossil like the tornado. The kiteboard and windsurfer will ultimately top out on the durability of human bone and ligaments, since the sailor is a structural component of both boats and humans are a crude one-design. If you actually want to do a boat race, it's highest end will be realized in an unconstrained design space. Whether or not other AC teams jump in and start using the C as a cheap development area depends on how deeply re-one-designed the america's cup gets. Especially if they start allowing fully integrated aero packages (wing/hull/deck) they will shy away from prototyping those on larger boats and might give it a shot. If they restrict everything, why bother? Ultimately it's good to have a place where people are encouraged to dream. However, this is a low stakes issue anyway, since the high performance end of the sport has never been more fantastic. What's far more important, at present, is making sure the actual sport of sailing survives through the coming century.

 

DRC

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Dave, interesting perspective on Kites, as I really think the future, no the present form of sailing, is in kiting. I can see though how the human element is a limitation.

 

We still likely get more people on SF Bay during one of the big regattas, Vallejo, Ditch, BBS and the like, but for day after day partipation, kites have to win. They are everywhere. Kayaks and SUPs are a close runner up.

 

Big, expensive, time intense things like sailing a 50'er or some high perf catamaran just doesn't have the same appeal that sailing had back in it's heyday.

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Dave, interesting perspective on Kites, as I really think the future, no the present form of sailing, is in kiting. I can see though how the human element is a limitation.

 

We still likely get more people on SF Bay during one of the big regattas, Vallejo, Ditch, BBS and the like, but for day after day partipation, kites have to win. They are everywhere. Kayaks and SUPs are a close runner up.

 

Big, expensive, time intense things like sailing a 50'er or some high perf catamaran just doesn't have the same appeal that sailing had back in it's heyday.

Oh totally. And the C-class is cripplingly expensive, labour absorbant and breakage prone. The kite is far better for the general population. I just always get a bit amazed when people start implying that there is little sense in an endeavor limited by 1.humanity's knowledge of materials science and engineering, 2. Humanity's knowledge of fluid and hydro dynamics and 3. A rough rule set about righting moment and power. Base jumping off cliffs into water has always been the fastest and cheapest watersport, so judging by those criteria alone achieves less than some might think.

 

DRC

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Interesting that the AC boats are using wings pioneered in the C Class and Groupama(and other C's) are using foils pioneered in the AC......

 

2dh5j08.jpg

 

 

 

2lvxm37.jpg

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We knew this would be a difficult time period for the C-cats. it has historically gone in fits and starts and this period will be no exception. Will there be cheaper boats that can go faster and deliver more bang for the buck, sure, there are today, there likely will be in the future too. Keep in mind that the moth and Phantom have both had masses of development money and time put into them over the last couple of years, they have not just popped out of some kind of vacuum. That the C-cat persists is miraculous by some or many accounts given the stretched out and sporadic investment in its advancement.

 

For years people have said we should bump up the available sail area on a C-cat so it can compete with boats like T-cats with kites. We resisted for a whole bunch of reasons, the chief one being some ideological purity, the purity of the rules for the class, the purity of the development space it creates. We resisted the temptation to just let the boats be type formed into looking like every other cat on the water. amazingly, it persisted. I also think it was the right if difficult decision.

 

I still believe that holding to the ideological purity of the rule that the fleet will persist. It may have dark days or quiet days but it will persist as it always has. The rule still holds certain aspects almost unmatched by any other rule, no weight limit being one of the biggest differences. This leaves open room to make incredible machines, granted at high risk and high cost. The rule is a hard rule due to its simplicity, no design decision is trivial or meaningless, nothing is set out for you all type formed and worked out, it's all blank slate all the time.

 

GA may be walking away right now with the event, but they are definitely catchable over time. First their interest may wane and this will open a window to mere mortals. Secondly, nothing about what they are doing currently cannot be copied and incramentaly advanced here and there to come together into a winning platform. Many said that Cogito would end the class and it would reign alone and forever. Well I just spelled out exactly how we put a lie to that thought with Alpha. We copied, we incrementally improved, we practiced like hell and we managed to beat them. Suffice to say there was great pride and pleasure in doing so. I would wager there would be great pride in knocking off GA at some point too for someone.

 

As for Clean being a fan boy then shitting on things. Cut him some slack, he's being a realist about things. An M32, or a moth do currently go faster, they have some better people in those fleets right now. The AC has cast a shadow over the C-class fleet for a bunch of reasons. Those are all realistic assessments of the current situation.

 

For those bemoaning the state of telecast right now at the event, I share your disappointment as I'd like to see some live footage too. A patron of the fleet has been generous in funding SA coverage in the past along with a small coterie of sponsors and that support has not been available this year to the fleet. I am disappointed if only because representations were made that there would be such coverage by the organisers. I recognize that pulling it together can be a costly and time consuming affair in the total mix of things to accomplish and I am not running the event so I am in no place to be critical of them.

 

Anyhow, I wouldn't rush to predict the demise of the Class just yet. I would add that until you sail a C-cat, you have no fucking clue what it's like. It is remarkably addictive once you do it, spectators be dammed, do it for its own sake.

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Just a quick update, the forecast anticipated for tomorrow is pushing the class wind limits so the teams have been asked to be ready for a 10am start in order to get a race or two in before the brunt of it (if it comes) passes through.

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Second that!

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We knew this would be a difficult time period for the C-cats. it has historically gone in fits and starts and this period will be no exception. Will there be cheaper boats that can go faster and deliver more bang for the buck, sure, there are today, there likely will be in the future too. Keep in mind that the moth and Phantom have both had masses of development money and time put into them over the last couple of years, they have not just popped out of some kind of vacuum. That the C-cat persists is miraculous by some or many accounts given the stretched out and sporadic investment in its advancement.

 

For years people have said we should bump up the available sail area on a C-cat so it can compete with boats like T-cats with kites. We resisted for a whole bunch of reasons, the chief one being some ideological purity, the purity of the rules for the class, the purity of the development space it creates. We resisted the temptation to just let the boats be type formed into looking like every other cat on the water. amazingly, it persisted. I also think it was the right if difficult decision.

 

I still believe that holding to the ideological purity of the rule that the fleet will persist. It may have dark days or quiet days but it will persist as it always has. The rule still holds certain aspects almost unmatched by any other rule, no weight limit being one of the biggest differences. This leaves open room to make incredible machines, granted at high risk and high cost. The rule is a hard rule due to its simplicity, no design decision is trivial or meaningless, nothing is set out for you all type formed and worked out, it's all blank slate all the time.

 

GA may be walking away right now with the event, but they are definitely catchable over time. First their interest may wane and this will open a window to mere mortals. Secondly, nothing about what they are doing currently cannot be copied and incramentaly advanced here and there to come together into a winning platform. Many said that Cogito would end the class and it would reign alone and forever. Well I just spelled out exactly how we put a lie to that thought with Alpha. We copied, we incrementally improved, we practiced like hell and we managed to beat them. Suffice to say there was great pride and pleasure in doing so. I would wager there would be great pride in knocking off GA at some point too for someone.

 

As for Clean being a fan boy then shitting on things. Cut him some slack, he's being a realist about things. An M32, or a moth do currently go faster, they have some better people in those fleets right now. The AC has cast a shadow over the C-class fleet for a bunch of reasons. Those are all realistic assessments of the current situation.

 

For those bemoaning the state of telecast right now at the event, I share your disappointment as I'd like to see some live footage too. A patron of the fleet has been generous in funding SA coverage in the past along with a small coterie of sponsors and that support has not been available this year to the fleet. I am disappointed if only because representations were made that there would be such coverage by the organisers. I recognize that pulling it together can be a costly and time consuming affair in the total mix of things to accomplish and I am not running the event so I am in no place to be critical of them.

 

Anyhow, I wouldn't rush to predict the demise of the Class just yet. I would add that until you sail a C-cat, you have no fucking clue what it's like. It is remarkably addictive once you do it, spectators be dammed, do it for its own sake.

Thanks Blunted. Well said. Golf clap ...

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Any class that tries to base its appeal solely on "we're the fastest/biggest/whatever about" is bound to lose that status in the end. So its best not to rely on it. So a Moth might get round the track faster than a C. Well, hell, a motorboat has been able to do that ever since the class was introduced. Having one guy with a budget ten times bigger (or whatever it is) than anyone else is in many ways a bigger problem, but these things will pass.

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I fully agree with everything that blunted has said. The class will progress because it draws in interest from those not purely driven to succed on the racecourse but by those keen to succeed on the drawing board, in essence its an academics boat.

 

It took me years to realise.

 

If you look back to the early 2000s, Cogito was pretty much the only boat. It had beaten Yellow Pages and Lindsey Cunningham had given up and gone on to try and steal the fastest sailboat record. Everyone thought the class was dead. It was only really through Normans ambition to challenge the status quo with his own ideas which brought Invictus to fruition, which then spurred on Steve to promote the class and encourage others to partake including the Ronstan team in Oz.

 

The rest of the recent success is down to Steve Clarks openess.

 

I for one have always been a strong advocate of the, 'Copy the top boat, learn to sail it really well and then develop the concept', the approach that blunted and the gang took, however there are certainly many in the class who prefer to start with a clean sheet of paper, ignore the current boats and do something different. Without them the class would be a bit sterile, so whatever happens to the C-class as long as the rules allow these off the wall design exercises to take place then it will remain the interesting class that we all want it to be.

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What I can't understand is why the event organizers spent money on the virtual eye stuff, perhaps the dullest way possible to watch sailboat racing, and didn't just do some live video themselves. It was hard when we started back in the mid 2000s - it's a piece of cake today to do a basic one or two cam feed.

This discussion came up in the Moth worlds thread. I'd much rather have the virtual eye style tracking than some shaky cam, we're not really sure who's winning or what's happening, "live" feed. With the digital stuff you can see the whole race course, see who's going to which side, know for sure who's who (none of this "That's X coming through for the win! Not wait it's someone else!") etc, etc. Both would be ideal, but if it's one or the other actual data wins for me every time. I'll accept it's just my opinion.

Personally I get more out of a good trac trac GPS feed than anything else on the internet, with the exception of good interviews done on shore. I do wish this little AC data were available on a viewer and not just a video of a viewer, but beggars can't be choosers.

 

Live video to me seems like the dinosaur, unless you have drones following leaders around the course and the superimposed sport vision animated laylines to go with it, it just gets a bit tiring.

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Live video is awesome when the associated technology is able to tell the whole story... see the last AC. SA coverage of the C class has always been well hyped but almost unwatchable, so the virtual streams actually stand quite well next to the live "coverage" that we've had. If the virtual stream was accompanied with some sort of video feed, that would be quite enjoyable I think. It certainly would have pushed SA's coverage into watchable territory.

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I am a but surprised others did not copy groupama more carefully at this event, in terms of design. Not to say that would be easy to do.

 

I would be very interested to see a moth line up against Groupama around a course in say 12 knots. I think these wings are enough less draggy and better shaped that they sail a lot closer to the wind on all points of sail. Yes GA may not fack or foil gybe, but how long will that remain the case?

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On the c-class health issue, to me the AC has borrowed far more from the C-class than the c has borrowed from the AC. Hell the AC boats are getting smaller all the time; Pretty soon they will be C cats even without intervention. And with that the hegemony of the C will be complete. What took those AC guys so long to see the light?

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I am a but surprised others did not copy groupama more carefully at this event, in terms of design. Not to say that would be easy to do.

 

I would be very interested to see a moth line up against Groupama around a course in say 12 knots. I think these wings are enough less draggy and better shaped that they sail a lot closer to the wind on all points of sail. Yes GA may not fack or foil gybe, but how long will that remain the case?

You just need to look at the number of brand new boat to figure that one out!

No way we would have the means to copy GA...

 

As for the discussion on the class I fully agree with Dave and Magnus!

 

I don't think the class needs to justify its existence or save sailing as a sport. As long as it remains a class where people are free to experiment and use their imagination and as long as it remains a place to share and exchange the class will live on!

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Its fun to dream about all of these fancy systems, but it seems everyone could have been much better prepared by focusing on the basics. For example, a morphing gap in the wing. Before starting such an endeavor, did anyone study the gains around the race track? If they had, I can assure you the time would have been better spent on foils and foil control. The same goes for wing cant gizmos.

 

Groupama clearly has the best foil package. Just look that their rudders, they're long with coord tapering off to almost nothing at depth. By themselves, they are nicely optimized.

 

Then onto their foils, its clear they have a couple options, some more stable than others. The straighter foils have very long span lifting surfaces, undoubtedly their light air package. Makes sense, long span will help foil at lower speeds. The straight vertical part ensures they don't loose too much righting arm. Seems like a good idea for light wind lake sailing.

 

The design brief from now on should be as follows. Step 1, build foils that get the hulls out of the water at all costs while not loosing too much righting arm! You're going to need more than one set of shapes, depending on the venue. Step 2, reduce the drag of the foils! Step 3, Copy a successful wing design or even go to soft sails so that you have more time to spend on the foils!

Sounds like you've figured out a really neat C-class design... I certainly look forward to seeing it on the starting line in 2017.

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For all the armchair designers out there. This is from a race simulator I wrote a few years ago which was designed to look at the time spent in various points of sail and on maneuvers during the race. The input fields are in green, so you specify number of legs, number of tacks and gybes per leg, length of legs and so on.

 

The data that drives it are the real polars we use on the boats. Suffice to say we have a number of different sets of data for the different boats. for the gybes and tacks data I looked at a whole bunch of GPS tracks for the boats for different gybes and tacks. a turn begins as soon as the boat begins to lose speed and turn, and it's considered to end when it is back up to speed heading in the correct direction. So we have data on those for all manner of TWS conditions. From that for a given TWS I can use a spline function to make a decent guess as to how long a tack or gybe will take, how efficient it will be in terms of CMG, VMG etc.

 

So here I ginned up the polars to reflect some numbers we're hearing about from GA. So for top speed downhill in 20 knots of wind I said 34 knots. I also tweaked the wind angles achieved to reflect the things we're hearing out there.

 

For me these charts challenge your perception of where to spend your design energy. Think about each bit of the pie chart and where you think you can make the biggest gains...Is it upwind performance that needs work? Or perhaps your corners?

 

Have at her.

 

post-1634-0-45477100-1442381031_thumb.jpg

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Certainly Groupama is going faster than the best moths, and likley faster than the kitefoiers, OD AC45Fs and the GC32s as well. Not sure anyone else is though, after all, 20 year old AXON (original Cogito) is looking competitive with everything else even without foiling. Groupama is a league ahead with an AC level research and development team, even if not as well funded as some other AC teams. They may be on a good idea here to be testing everything at CCat level which is actually cheap compered to the 45ft surogates.

 

CCats have always been out there at the limits with inovation and creativity. Its just that so few people can afford to put in the time and money needed to get new ideas fully sorted, or have the space to build, and store the monsters. At present one team has a bigger budget in time, people and money.

 

The wing masts and wing sails are the obvious huge contributions to our sport, but the first foiling CCat was way off pace, then there were other things like the tilting rig gizmo on Windmill which most see as never being viable. Its obvious this week that the AC influenced foil designs are better than anything the other innovations.

 

Fred says this is flat period and they will come back one day with something fantastic again.

Lets hope enough people keep at it and surprise us all again.

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I happen to have pictures of the GA canting arrangement under the tramp from 2013. Only got a few before being chased away by the shore crew but it was enough for me to decode the whole thing.

 

Simon is close. In essence the forestay is a loop and the shrouds are a loop. the rope clutches free the loops or lock them, down. The "back side" of the system, that you cannot see, has a purchase that allows one to put more load onto the shrouds to maintain tension if required.

 

Once the rope clutches are closed all four lines are of a fixed length and this makes the platform stiff. To tack or gybe, as described they unlock the clutches and the wing "dumps" to leeward". Then it's locked off again, you complete the turn and the wing ends up to windward.

 

We have a complete system mocked up in a shop that emulates the basic GA operating principals. We have designed a system ready to be installed on FYH. I've done all the schematics and the math, now it's just time, money and will power.

Looking at their système here, you got that right blunted. The backstay is a simple loop with clutches and lots of purchase.

 

But they seem to have changed their forestay arrangement this time around. From what I have managed to see, they now simply have fixed forestays. But they are made from thin dyneema, I guess to allow more stretch when the wing goes from one side to the other.

 

Mast compression sensor was displaying 1500 (kg?) when they were tentioning the whole thing this morning. They do it with the wing canted over to the opposite side.

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"It pains me to say it, but unless something fundamental changes in big AC world, the C-Class will probably go dormant again after this one. Who is going to spend the kind of money and effort required to build something faster and better than Franck's boat?"

 

Paul Craig also asked the question of whether teams should copy and incrementally improve or start from a clean sheet. The fact that Groupama have considerably raised the bar is good, that's what the class is about, but incremental developments on Groupama only work if Groupama dont make their own incremental changes - and they are starting from a sound knowledge base and have huge budgets, so they can turn ideas over faster than anyone. That is why our strategy is clean sheet, and why we are not in Geneva: It takes time to a) raise the money and B) to develop new ideas from scratch. We are building a prototype over the winter, and we will see where we are after that, but watch out, you have seen nothin like this!

 

...and if you live in the UK, feel free to get in touch if you want to help.

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What I can't understand is why the event organizers spent money on the virtual eye stuff, perhaps the dullest way possible to watch sailboat racing, and didn't just do some live video themselves. It was hard when we started back in the mid 2000s - it's a piece of cake today to do a basic one or two cam feed.

This discussion came up in the Moth worlds thread. I'd much rather have the virtual eye style tracking than some shaky cam, we're not really sure who's winning or what's happening, "live" feed. With the digital stuff you can see the whole race course, see who's going to which side, know for sure who's who (none of this "That's X coming through for the win! Not wait it's someone else!") etc, etc. Both would be ideal, but if it's one or the other actual data wins for me every time. I'll accept it's just my opinion.

 

I wish we had both as is possible sometimes (Thanks to all the contributors). Nevertheless the part you've mentioned in brackets is the interesting one, as I was watching the M32 races both in Helsinki and Stockholm lately. For example, the live camera follows the winning boat through the finish and stays with the boat but sometimes at the last mark there was a much more interesting dogfight between second to sixth or something with very interesting tactical decisions which I would have loved to follow. But nevertheless, we should be thankful for such great coverage and I must say, that Mr. Clean got better on the mike through the years.

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For me these charts challenge your perception of where to spend your design energy. Think about each bit of the pie chart and where you think you can make the biggest gains...Is it upwind performance that needs work? Or perhaps your corners?

 

Really good stuff. But the other, and, I submit harder, part of it is to know where there are gains to be made.There was a huge design revolution in the short planing dinghy class I've been associated with in the 70s. A chart of that class in say 1967 would probably have shown an even bigger beating bias than your one, but the revolution was in downwind speed. It turned out there was a 100% increase in downwind speed waiting to be made, but upwind speed wasn't nearly so far from the limits with then materials and technology.

 

But I wish I'd thought of doing something like that when I was losing an argument about changing rules to permit F off big rags. I never managed to get over the point that if you put huge kites on and sail very deep you spend less time going fast, not more.

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Race 4 postponed but if they get going it will be here:

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according to Geneva wheather forecast website

 

It's a south wind called "foehn" blowing @30 km/hours gusting @70km/hours

 

It means 15knts gusting 35knts, never saw that so far

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Thanks. I guess they are measuring this off the cttee boat. I heard that it usually drops off later, so hopefully we will see some racing today.

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According to the boats speed, it's unlikly they have 15knts

 

Probably, the website gives extrem datas for the day.

 

So you're working on a breakthrough concept!

 

Good luck to the team

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some updates from the course by ger-001 https://twitter.com/C_Class_GER001?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

 

Any foil has a lifting component... - Sentient Blue's doesn't create enough lift to get out in the air (straight boards I think)

 

And looked like they just were just about to catch Axon and beat a fast approaching Norgador - pretty close race from 2-4. Groupama is in a legue of its own....Awsome technology it that class.

 

Go go go go Thomas

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Simon is close. In essence the forestay is a loop and the shrouds are a loop. the rope clutches free the loops or lock them, down. The "back side" of the system, that you cannot see, has a purchase that allows one to put more load onto the shrouds to maintain tension if required.

 

Once the rope clutches are closed all four lines are of a fixed length and this makes the platform stiff. To tack or gybe, as described they unlock the clutches and the wing "dumps" to leeward". Then it's locked off again, you complete the turn and the wing ends up to windward.

 

Thanks!

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Since the advent of solid wings the final result of the LAC has pretty much been known after the first race.

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Norgador 2nd, Axon 3rd.

1rst place might be well decided, but the battle for 2nd will be tight.

 

 

Is there some where differences on wings ?

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Catfan, we use Clysar brand polyolefin film, don't know which weight.

 

Plus the spec on their tapes is overcooked for my liking.

 

How big a wing are you thinking about? how big are the spans?

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Days one and two-from The Foiling Week:

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Back in to the press center now.

The Foehn came in suddenly after all of the boats were derigged, probably an hour ago. Really warm wind. They're taking the mini Hydropter HYDROS.CH out in it. Should be fun to watch.

 

Impossible to get a look at the groupama underside since they have a soft aero fairing (looks like a tarpaulin) zipped up on the underside which when unzipped covers hull to hull from crossbeam to pavement.

I've got interviews coming from Benoit Marie on their strategy today as well as a sit down with the ETS desiger.

Stay tuned.

 

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Since the advent of solid wings the final result of the LAC has pretty much been known after the first race.

That's almost always been true of the leadmine cup too...

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Catfan, we use Clysar brand polyolefin film, don't know which weight.

 

Plus the spec on their tapes is overcooked for my liking.

 

How big a wing are you thinking about? how big are the spans?

Thanks Blunted for the suggestion.

I checked at Clysar web site but I wasn't able to recognize the proper product in their large range of packaging films.

May you help me?

To respond to yr question:

my project is not sailing related:

actualIy I plan to build a piece of furniture in epoxi-carbon and polyolefin film

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https://www.facebook.com/SailingShot/videos/1632729913648176 - Here's the talk I had with Benoit Marie yesterday after his race.

 

This guy is really good

Fist mini transat, he wins it

Starts moth foiling in 2014, end of the year he's 5th of the 2014 European championship

And now he's second of the little Cup behind unreachable Groupama, whith a 20 years old non-foiling cat

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https://www.facebook.com/SailingShot/videos/1632729913648176 - Here's the talk I had with Benoit Marie yesterday after his race.

 

This guy is really good

Fist mini transat, he wins it

Starts moth foiling in 2014, end of the year he's 5th of the 2014 European championship

And now he's second of the little Cup behind unreachable Groupama, whith a 20 years old non-foiling cat

 

 

Absolutely.

I think that the biggest issue yesterday were the shocking results by Team Gstaad. Billy Besson and Vandame have the best small catamaran resumes at the event and essentially have a sistership to team Norgador. They really could have damaged Axon's chances at the finals but didn't, languishing in 5th for both races.

 

Axon knows how to push their boat hard in the light as well as the heavy air we saw on Monday, but the results coming into the last day today are really too close to call.

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Race committee has been out there for several hours. Everyone else is delayed ashore keeping dry.

It's just pouring here. Reports over the VHF are that the little wind that there is is moving around and changes heading substantially enough every 2-3 minutes.

 

The forecast is for some cold air to move in with sunny breaks and some stable wind but the city is still grey, cold and wet.

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Race committee has been out there for several hours. Everyone else is delayed ashore keeping dry.

It's just pouring here. Reports over the VHF are that the little wind that there is is moving around and changes heading substantially enough every 2-3 minutes.

 

The forecast is for some cold air to move in with sunny breaks and some stable wind but the city is still grey, cold and wet.

Just like Falmouth 2 years ago.

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Well, they've launched. Let's go AXON racing! Those guys have done a brilliant job with old, mostly original format cogito. Heartwarming.

 

DRC

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I've wussed out on going on the media boat today given that I don't feel like freezing out there.

The ETS team has launched and are foiling, they aren't particularly stable, lifting early, heading up, loosing flow and crashing down. And repeat.

It'll be tough for the non foiling boats to compete in this but we'll see how it goes.

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Word from the ETS/Rafale crew is that they capsized, but it seems that nothing was broken and that they're continuing with the race.

Talk about a solidly built wing and boat.

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Race committee has been out there for several hours. Everyone else is delayed ashore keeping dry.

It's just pouring here. Reports over the VHF are that the little wind that there is is moving around and changes heading substantially enough every 2-3 minutes.

 

The forecast is for some cold air to move in with sunny breaks and some stable wind but the city is still grey, cold and wet.

Just like Falmouth 2 years ago.

 

 

Well folks after three days of changing diapers and trying to relieve my lovely wife after two weeks in scandinavia, I am back in action. If anyone has a full update for the front page, now's the time!

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Clean - try not to take this too personal, but your fanboy nature of really pimping something, like the C-Class when you're covering it, and damning it to the dustbin of history when you're not, is tiresome.

 

I think you have a chicken and egg problem Raz'r. We didn't go precisely because we felt like it was way too much effort for something that has largely damned itself to the dustbin of history, at least for the time being. The C-Class will endure, but in my opinion it will once again be a forgettable affair for a fair few years.

 

Remember something: It was Fred Eaton's substantial passion and resources combined with Steve Clark's complete openness wit