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Börni

C-Class LittleCup 2015

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In other news, with racing blown off today, AXON Racing (cogito) is the official challenger for the Little America's Cup! Given that before race 6 was blown off today the Benoits beat Frank to the windward mark, there's an outside chance that they win. Here's praying for really light flukey wind! #Seahugger!

DRC

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In other news, with racing blown off today, AXON Racing (cogito) is the official challenger for the Little America's Cup! Given that before race 6 was blown off today the Benoits beat Frank to the windward mark, there's an outside chance that they win. Here's praying for really light flukey wind! #Seahugger!

 

DRC

+1 Go COGITO....I mean AXON.

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erictra20, did you even read that page you linked? Sure a 2D machine lays up the plys, but then they are HAND LAID into 3D tooling, e.g. a mould.

 

The 2D TPT tech is available to anyone who wants to pay for it, we use it, other teams use it, you design your ply's, you send your order, you pay your money, TPT sends you a roll with your ply's on it, you put then in the tool (mold) with your hands, bag it down and cook it.

 

Molds may still exist or they may have been thrown away, but you still need molds to use TPT.

 

Here's a good example of what I am talking about....

 

 

 

 

Thanks Blunted for the very clear correction. You don't even need to go to TPT anymore if you don't want to. This technology has been around in the high-end glider world for a while now. I have rolls of spread tow carbon down at 45 g/m^2 in my shop and the next batch I order will be 20 g/m^2, about the same weight as light glass but 3x the strength. The advantage of TPT is you can specify the ply orientation and having effectively a single layer of cloth to wet out in the molds provides room for weight savings, plus there is far less variance in the process. As team Rafale/ETS have more than likely learned by now, there is a bit of an art to building lightweight composite structures. I'm betting the same team can build the same boat 10% or more lighter with the same layup schedule in the same molds next go around. Keeping that team intact for another C-class cycle is part of the hurdle. To really keep universities engaged, the event needs to happen every 2 years, and that is tough because it clearly costs a lot to run one of these boats for a week, no matter the venue.

 

I remain optimistic that this won't be the end of this era of C-class. I would love for Caanan or Steve to really come back and challenge Groupama C. The foil development is the issue, and outside of M&M, I'm not sure there is much advanced catamaran foil design going on in the U.S. Some in the A-class, but a lot of that is seat-of-your-pants work, not necessarily engineering based development; not that this is a bad thing, I personally don't think the modelling tools are doing a good job (they're never perfect) and that is why Groupama have been through so many iterations, and I believe Phantom has as well. Few people can afford to play that game on the scale of the C-class, nevermind larger.

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With a bulk order at Mutliplast, I feel confident, you'll get an attractive price.

 

Of course, Cammas, will not give his last generation foils,

but each team could make a few pâirs if not overbusy with the platform

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One of the things I have wondered about is requiring the teams to disclose the boat design as a way to re level the playing field every so often. Off hand my thought would be to require this at the end of every America's Cup championship, but only require disclosure to someone who has raced in at least one of the last two Little AC's. This may actually pull in some of the deep pocket AC programs, allow for a refresh button every few years, and prevent one team from becoming so dominate that it threatens the class.

 

It would also provide a huge pool of knowledge for anyone interested in entering the class to jump start their program by knowing exactly what they are up against.

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Days one and two-from The Foiling Week:

 

At 38 seconds, Groupama is foiling in glassy conditions. Mindblowing :o:blink:

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To talk about another matter, what the members present now on that Forum think about the book "The Little Cup" written by François Chevalier ? It should be of interest to read here some comments and suggestions. Thank you to all for replying. Cheers... Morbihan

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To talk about another matter, what the members present now on that Forum think about the book "The Little Cup" written by François Chevalier ? It should be of interest to read here some comments and suggestions. Thank you to all for replying. Cheers... Morbihan

Beautifully produced. Good effort. Solid book. Educational. A few bizarre inaccuracies. Once he had something that looked ready to print he didn't do the normal journalistic due diligence of reaching out to his sources for a double check. Thus there are a few parts that are off. As far as a document of yachting history, it's a fascinating book.

DRC

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ok. So the wind was all over the place. It was a game of snakes and ladders out there.

Good job from Axon on consistent sailing throughout the series. We'll see what tomorrow brings. The french media here has termed the battle "Archimedes vs Icarus".

 

It's confirmed that Steve is looking to sell both boats. I think that the rational here is to amass funds to build a new one. I don't think that he'll let this event be the last C-Class regatta he races in.

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I love when people say shit like this. Never mind the fact that you have no idea what the Swiss government will do if you don't go through a massive exercise in licensing, permitting, and insurance.

 

Swiss drone laws are even tougher than Swedish ones, and the M32 finale was threatened with a $150,000 fine and the shutting down of the event if they caught them using the drone.

 

I'm surprised no one has gone out, purchased a few drones with extra batteries to film stuff like this. The footage would be vastly superior to what you can shoot from a powerboat, and the budget not much greater.

 

Interesting, I had no idea. Is this across the board in Europe? How about on this side of the pond?

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We've all been enjoying Merde (Luka)'s work here bringing us information, we can now all head over to his website to see lots more photos from the event! So far we only have the practice days and the first day galleries up and running, but the rest will follow as soon as we can get it ready.

 

http://www.SailingShot.com/2015/little-cup

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What happened with Groupama in race 6?
Also seemed a couple of the other boats went through the finish and rounded for another lap, any info?

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For those asking about details from Groupama's canting rig.

It's not as simple as just walking by and pointing your camera on the underside.

post-33166-0-87122500-1442531085_thumb.jpg

 

Yea, the decision was taken to shorten the course when it seemed that the wind was about to totally shut down, which ended up being the right call. So RC flew the S flag and signaled the the finish between the gate. I know that the germans and Axon continued racing simply due to them not hearing the RC situated close to 300m away. They were using an air horn and not one of those propane noisemakers.

 

From what I saw, Groupama just sailed itself into a hole and took enough bad shifts to just have a bad race. The conditions were interesting in the dying breeze.

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For those asking about details from Groupama's canting rig.

It's not as simple as just walking by and pointing your camera on the underside.

attachicon.gifIMG_4712.jpg

 

Yea, the decision was taken to shorten the course when it seemed that the wind was about to totally shut down, which ended up being the right call. So RC flew the S flag and signaled the the finish between the gate. I know that the germans and Axon continued racing simply due to them not hearing the RC situated close to 300m away. They were using an air horn and not one of those propane noisemakers.

 

From what I saw, Groupama just sailed itself into a hole and took enough bad shifts to just have a bad race. The conditions were interesting in the dying breeze.

Thanks. Pretty much what I figured about the shortened course. Better safe than sorry with the rounding if it wasn't clear.

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From The Foiling Week-full replay of today:

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On the drone issue, this is the first I've heard of it being a problem. I know in Germany you can legally fly drones. Not sure about for pay.

 

Here in the U.S, the law gets murky. Technically if you are filming or taking photos or doing any work for pay, not sponsored by a government agency and don't have a FAA COA for your drone (UAS technically) and a commercial pilots license, you are operating illegally. Enforcement is a bit of an issue. For example, I can't operate without these things in place because the FAA will simply revoke my private pilots license if they catch me (which generally speaking requires you to be pretty stupid, or go viral on youtube, or a combination of the two). The laws are changing, thanks in no small part due to Amazons desire for drone delivery in major metropolitan areas, and congress being somewhat reasonable in understanding that all the law is doing right now is curbing some of the U.S drone development (most companies just do it anyway and skirt the letter of the law, because enforcement is generally more effort than it is worth), but the FAA moves slower even than the U.S Navy.

*first I've heard of the issue in Europe.

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Clean - try not to take this too personal, but your fanboy nature of really pimping something, like the C-Class when you're covering it, and damning it to the dustbin of history when you're not, is tiresome.

This.

 

Yes this.

Most of us choose one class and stick with it, which is why this attitude grates

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I love when people say shit like this. Never mind the fact that you have no idea what the Swiss government will do if you don't go through a massive exercise in licensing, permitting, and insurance.

 

Swiss drone laws are even tougher than Swedish ones, and the M32 finale was threatened with a $150,000 fine and the shutting down of the event if they caught them using the drone.

 

I'm surprised no one has gone out, purchased a few drones with extra batteries to film stuff like this. The footage would be vastly superior to what you can shoot from a powerboat, and the budget not much greater.

 

Sorry, have to call bullshit on this one. Regulations here are simple:

Drones up to 30 KG can be flown without licence ( http://www.bazl.admin.ch/dienstleistungen/02658/index.html?lang=en):

 

"Drones are mostly remotely piloted aeral vehicles. They are de jure aircraft models. Up to a weight of 30 kg these aeral vehicles can basically be operated without a special permission under the condition that the pilot has at anytime eye contact with the flying object. Furthermore drones are not allowed to fly above gatherings of people. More information see: Permits for the operation of drones with less than 30 kg"

 

"With effect from 1 August 2014, for safety reasons drones may no longer be operated above gatherings of people (several dozen people standing in close proximity to one another) or within a radius of 100 metres from gatherings of people."

 

Flying a drone from a boat over a sailing race falls nicely into this "no permit" category. There is no chance of "several dozen people standing in close proximity to one another". Farmers here use drones all the time to survey the growth of crops etcetera. Alternatively, you can get a professional to film for about 1600 francs / day. Not a great spend for that kind of work (http://www.luftbild-drohne.ch/luftbild_video.php)

 

And the process of getting a licence, if needed, is also not that steep: "The costs for obtaining a permit may vary from 50 to 700 Swiss francs, depending on the amount of work required for processing the application."

 

I was at the Cup last Wednesday and it was a real shame they did not have the option to see the race from the race village on a screen. As it was, the spectators just drifted away after the boats were launched, as it was simply too far away to watch. The village was empty. They even did not have the 3-d footage running on the tv there, just some pre-canned footage. You had to go the SNG to see it (if you were allowed in of course). Last gripe: no food & beverages. So if they had a tent with a tv, 3d footage, some drone footage and perhaps a live commentary, some sandwiches & beer, they would have made some money, probably not break even, but close. And if pushed, I probably would have paid 10-20 francs to get in to watch it all.

 

BTW: they did do a technical review "live" of how the boats, foils and wings work. Very nicely done, great guy who did that. And oh yeah, will post some pics and vids later.

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To talk about another matter, what the members present now on that Forum think about the book "The Little Cup" written by François Chevalier ? It should be of interest to read here some comments and suggestions. Thank you to all for replying. Cheers... Morbihan

Beautifully produced. Good effort. Solid book. Educational. A few bizarre inaccuracies. Once he had something that looked ready to print he didn't do the normal journalistic due diligence of reaching out to his sources for a double check. Thus there are a few parts that are off. As far as a document of yachting history, it's a fascinating book.

DRC

 

I can only imagine the amount of work that was put into the making of the book so I don't want to sound rude or unfair, but I was expecting more technical data and details since (for me) the C-Class is mainly a technical contest (which I love). Mind you, the book is great when it comes to tell the story of the little america's cup and the C-Class. As for the innacuracies, I really can't tell.

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erictra20, did you even read that page you linked? Sure a 2D machine lays up the plys, but then they are HAND LAID into 3D tooling, e.g. a mould.

 

The 2D TPT tech is available to anyone who wants to pay for it, we use it, other teams use it, you design your ply's, you send your order, you pay your money, TPT sends you a roll with your ply's on it, you put then in the tool (mold) with your hands, bag it down and cook it.

 

Molds may still exist or they may have been thrown away, but you still need molds to use TPT.

 

Here's a good example of what I am talking about....

 

 

 

 

How long is she allowed to remain at her current size before I'm legally allowed to sleep around?

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I love when people say shit like this. Never mind the fact that you have no idea what the Swiss government will do if you don't go through a massive exercise in licensing, permitting, and insurance.

 

Swiss drone laws are even tougher than Swedish ones, and the M32 finale was threatened with a $150,000 fine and the shutting down of the event if they caught them using the drone.

 

I'm surprised no one has gone out, purchased a few drones with extra batteries to film stuff like this. The footage would be vastly superior to what you can shoot from a powerboat, and the budget not much greater.

 

Interesting, I had no idea. Is this across the board in Europe? How about on this side of the pond?

 

 

Noncommercial use is very lightly regulated. Enable ad-sharing on your Youtube page or god forbid shoot for a regatta and they can fine your ass, take your drone, etc. Not such a big deal today, but it won't take long for the drone-search and destroy tech to be ready at the FAA/DHS thanks to a few senators freaking out that the arab nuclear-tipped DJI Phantoms are coming to create the next 9/11.

 

https://www.faa.gov/uas/

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On the drone issue, this is the first I've heard of it being a problem. I know in Germany you can legally fly drones. Not sure about for pay.

 

 

 

Expensive, expensive licensing required for any commercial, and over 5 KG or 150m altitude in Germany and most of Europe now. Laws homologating quickly.

 

Bigger problem in many of the places we would want to fly is that many regatta venues are close enough to a flightpath that the Man gets on you fast.

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I love when people say shit like this. Never mind the fact that you have no idea what the Swiss government will do if you don't go through a massive exercise in licensing, permitting, and insurance.

 

Swiss drone laws are even tougher than Swedish ones, and the M32 finale was threatened with a $150,000 fine and the shutting down of the event if they caught them using the drone.

 

I'm surprised no one has gone out, purchased a few drones with extra batteries to film stuff like this. The footage would be vastly superior to what you can shoot from a powerboat, and the budget not much greater.

 

Sorry, have to call bullshit on this one. Regulations here are simple:

 

Wrong. ALL commercial use requires a flight plan, a licensed operator, and big insurance. Can easily get up to 10k and a lot of pre-planning necessary. This is all new this year.

 

You can get away with it still, but not for long, and certainly not if you get on the front page of SA and get thousands watching.

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I love when people say shit like this. Never mind the fact that you have no idea what the Swiss government will do if you don't go through a massive exercise in licensing, permitting, and insurance.

 

Swiss drone laws are even tougher than Swedish ones, and the M32 finale was threatened with a $150,000 fine and the shutting down of the event if they caught them using the drone.

 

I'm surprised no one has gone out, purchased a few drones with extra batteries to film stuff like this. The footage would be vastly superior to what you can shoot from a powerboat, and the budget not much greater.

 

Sorry, have to call bullshit on this one. Regulations here are simple:

Drones up to 30 KG can be flown without licence ( http://www.bazl.admin.ch/dienstleistungen/02658/index.html?lang=en):

 

"Drones are mostly remotely piloted aeral vehicles. They are de jure aircraft models. Up to a weight of 30 kg these aeral vehicles can basically be operated without a special permission under the condition that the pilot has at anytime eye contact with the flying object. Furthermore drones are not allowed to fly above gatherings of people. More information see: Permits for the operation of drones with less than 30 kg"

 

"With effect from 1 August 2014, for safety reasons drones may no longer be operated above gatherings of people (several dozen people standing in close proximity to one another) or within a radius of 100 metres from gatherings of people."

 

Flying a drone from a boat over a sailing race falls nicely into this "no permit" category. There is no chance of "several dozen people standing in close proximity to one another". Farmers here use drones all the time to survey the growth of crops etcetera. Alternatively, you can get a professional to film for about 1600 francs / day. Not a great spend for that kind of work (http://www.luftbild-drohne.ch/luftbild_video.php)

 

And the process of getting a licence, if needed, is also not that steep: "The costs for obtaining a permit may vary from 50 to 700 Swiss francs, depending on the amount of work required for processing the application."

 

I was at the Cup last Wednesday and it was a real shame they did not have the option to see the race from the race village on a screen. As it was, the spectators just drifted away after the boats were launched, as it was simply too far away to watch. The village was empty. They even did not have the 3-d footage running on the tv there, just some pre-canned footage. You had to go the SNG to see it (if you were allowed in of course). Last gripe: no food & beverages. So if they had a tent with a tv, 3d footage, some drone footage and perhaps a live commentary, some sandwiches & beer, they would have made some money, probably not break even, but close. And if pushed, I probably would have paid 10-20 francs to get in to watch it all.

 

BTW: they did do a technical review "live" of how the boats, foils and wings work. Very nicely done, great guy who did that. And oh yeah, will post some pics and vids later.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Noncommercial use is very lightly regulated. Enable ad-sharing on your Youtube page or god forbid shoot for a regatta and they can fine your ass, take your drone, etc. Not such a big deal today, but it won't take long for the drone-search and destroy tech to be ready at the FAA/DHS thanks to a few senators freaking out that the arab nuclear-tipped DJI Phantoms are coming to create the next 9/11.

 

https://www.faa.gov/uas/

 

 

Just to be clear: in Switzerland, you do not need a permit for a drone less than 30 kg and not operating near crowds of people ("several dozens"), regardless if the purpose is "commercial, private, professional or scientific"

 

"Bei Drohnen handelt es sich um unbemannte, ferngesteuerte Luftfahrzeuge, die bestimmten Zwecken dienen wie etwa Bildaufnahmen, Vermessungen, Transporten, wissenschaftlichen Untersuchungen usw. Dabei spielt es keine Rolle, ob der Einsatz gewerbsmässig, privat, beruflich oder wissenschaftlich erfolgt."

 

And you need 3rd party insurance with a minimum SFr 1million limit, which is peanuts: practically everyone in Switzerland has that as standard, usually with a Sfr 3million limit

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I love when people say shit like this. Never mind the fact that you have no idea what the Swiss government will do if you don't go through a massive exercise in licensing, permitting, and insurance.

 

Swiss drone laws are even tougher than Swedish ones, and the M32 finale was threatened with a $150,000 fine and the shutting down of the event if they caught them using the drone.

 

I'm surprised no one has gone out, purchased a few drones with extra batteries to film stuff like this. The footage would be vastly superior to what you can shoot from a powerboat, and the budget not much greater.

 

Sorry, have to call bullshit on this one. Regulations here are simple:

 

Wrong. ALL commercial use requires a flight plan, a licensed operator, and big insurance. Can easily get up to 10k and a lot of pre-planning necessary. This is all new this year.

 

You can get away with it still, but not for long, and certainly not if you get on the front page of SA and get thousands watching.

 

Sorry, I am taking this from the official Swiss "Bundesamt für Zivilluftfahr" i.e. Swiss "FAA" site. I would take their source over yours.

Summary

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Back to the cup, a match between Axon and Norgador would have been a lot more exciting as Arquimedes vs Icarus.

Changing Norgador for Groupama is somehow as changing Icarus for Daedalus.

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Live now:

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Race 1: light conditions, shifty wind throughout. Camas enters right. Both head left off the start, sail a bit into a hole and Axon is the first boat to tack off and go hard into the western shore. They pickup a header, gain the advantage but ride it too far while commas following them gets into the lift and passes them. Camas carries a 20 second advantage at the windward as the conditions don't permit foiling. They end up heading to the eastern shore when cammas gybes away gets a puff and it's over right then and there. He carries a 5 minute lead at the leeward gate.

Axon was not sailing well, using the wing like a barn door, and not double trapezing off the leeward hull. These were Cogito's conditions and they blew it.

 

Second race Axon enters right. They try and push Cammas but he escapes around the RC and picks up the breeze faster than axon on the left side of the course. RC signals that there was a 100 deg. (?) lefty during the downwind. This brought more pressure on the course resulting in foiling and a 2-0 lead for Groupama going into tomorrow.

 

They are running fleet racing at the moment.

 

More later.

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Wonder why the live stream is not showing Groupama and Axon ? No speeds, it's as if they weren't racing?

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Clean that's between you and her man...

did you miss a comma, on purpose, man?

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Back to the cup, a match between Axon and Norgador would have been a lot more exciting as Arquimedes vs Icarus.

Changing Norgador for Groupama is somehow as changing Icarus for Daedalus.

They did so racing for being the challenger. Arquimedes won...

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Thanks for that-just great!

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We've all been enjoying Merde (Luka)'s work here bringing us information, we can now all head over to his website to see lots more photos from the event! So far we only have the practice days and the first day galleries up and running, but the rest will follow as soon as we can get it ready.

 

http://www.SailingShot.com/2015/little-cup

Nice shots from Luka. Well done mate!

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GA was doing 15-16 upwind at one point. Definitely foiling. I don't think they were on a reach as they were not laying the windward mark. Looks like they take off at 12 knots boat speed or thereabouts.

 

Would have been fascinating to have a moth on the course today.

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Shifty day looking at the tracks. Dilema day for foilers.

Not sure what the numbers are for Groupama etc, bit a moth takes off at about 8kts which needs 8 to 10 kts of wind depending on crew weight. But once up it can continue flying at 12kts in a lot less wind. But if you come down in a tack it can be a long wait until the next take off puff. Hence we see tracks of CCats sailing way off the shift evident from the boat upwind. The choice is bewteen continuing on the knock at foiling speeds or tacking off and sailing at half the speed towards the shift. Hard choices, not like normal boat racing.

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OK I may have made a mistake about moulds but that's not the point.

The problem is the enormous amount of money Groupama put in their C Class boat. No amateur can reasonably spend that much money.

You can also dream of Groupama giving their design to anyone who may ask but that is not going to happen. They spent too much money. And by doing so they nearly killed the C Class.

 

It's "fun" to see that happening on the Leman because it happened already with Ernesto Bertarelli and his Black cat. He spent way too much money. Other amateur owners could not follow suit (even though they were not economically weak) and this led to the creation of the D35 one design class.

This always happen like that at the end when a guy comes with a enormous wallet in an open class. Another example is the Figaro one design class (used for La solitaire du Figaro). It was sailed on half tonners orginally. But when two sponsors (Elf Aquitaine and I forgot the other) decided to invest more than the others they built two superior boatd that were way too fast than the others. No other sponsors could invest that money. And it led to the One design Figaro Beneteau.

History is repeating.

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Franck has a much smaller wallet than the guy he took the Little Cup from in Falmouth, and he spent a lot less this time than the last. The C is rarely about outright deep pockets, erictra20, and the lake will not be the end of it.

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Waiting for the wind...

Groupama C and Cogito Axon Racing on the water

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Franck has a much smaller wallet than the guy he took the Little Cup from in Falmouth. The C is rarely about outright deep pockets, erictra20, and the lake will not be the end of it.

 

It seems that Franck Cammas knows better how and where to spend his money...

 

In the AC 1987 in Fremantle NYYC had the biggest budget but they did not even qualify for the semi finals. Bigger budget (hopefully) does not always mean better results. History again...

 

Make no mistake I'm a big fan of C Class and I'd be very sad if that came to an end. I'm just afraid of what will happen next with only one boat way too in advance compared to the others.

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Franck has a much smaller wallet than the guy he took the Little Cup from in Falmouth. The C is rarely about outright deep pockets, erictra20, and the lake will not be the end of it.

Perhaps the statement "rarely about deep pockets..." was true before . Nowadays with foiling technology I doubt it. The type of resources Groupama has are very important. Would be nice to hear Blunted's opinion.

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Punk not dead

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Oups,

C not dead. New cats will come. And Jérémie said me (yesterday), "great news tomorrow"

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I'll bet that tomorow, we 'll ear about Groupama/Lombard-Odier C UP with hybrid OD boats, as above-mentionned.

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Live(no wind) :

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OK I may have made a mistake about moulds but that's not the point.

The problem is the enormous amount of money Groupama put in their C Class boat. No amateur can reasonably spend that much money.

You can also dream of Groupama giving their design to anyone who may ask but that is not going to happen. They spent too much money. And by doing so they nearly killed the C Class.

 

It's "fun" to see that happening on the Leman because it happened already with Ernesto Bertarelli and his Black cat. He spent way too much money. Other amateur owners could not follow suit (even though they were not economically weak) and this led to the creation of the D35 one design class.

 

Bertarelli's cat, Alinghi, was white, but I know, that's not the point.

What won the cup was black indeed, and had a wing. And that wing was what I think led to the creation of the D35 class.

 

 

This always happen like that at the end when a guy comes with a enormous wallet in an open class. Another example is the Figaro one design class (used for La solitaire du Figaro). It was sailed on half tonners orginally. But when two sponsors (Elf Aquitaine and I forgot the other) decided to invest more than the others they built two superior boatd that were way too fast than the others. No other sponsors could invest that money. And it led to the One design Figaro Beneteau.

History is repeating.

 

 

 

Comparing La solitaire du Figaro with the C-class or the AC seems to me to compare apples and kiwis.

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Just landed in Geneva. I'm having some difficulties figuring out what is happening tomorrow. The program says "Geneva Fleet Race". What does that mean? Is the event held at SNG? Thanks for any info you can provide.

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I'll bet that tomorow, we 'll ear about Groupama/Lombard-Odier C UP with hybrid OD boats, as above-mentionned.

Never in a million years, buddy. Never. The class that didn't outlaw wings in the 70's isn't going to go one design just because franks boat is presently faster. The deltas between challengers and defenders were worse than this at times a few decades ago and nobody called for a one design, mainly because the c-class is a design challenge. Most of the people who got outclassed at this regatta or couldn't make it due to the compressed schedule would consider it an insult to have the playing field levelled in such a fashion.

DRC

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To talk about another matter, what the members present now on that Forum think about the book "The Little Cup" written by François Chevalier ? It should be of interest to read here some comments and suggestions. Thank you to all for replying. Cheers... Morbihan

Beautifully produced. Good effort. Solid book. Educational. A few bizarre inaccuracies. Once he had something that looked ready to print he didn't do the normal journalistic due diligence of reaching out to his sources for a double check. Thus there are a few parts that are off. As far as a document of yachting history, it's a fascinating book.

DRC

 

 

Thank you very much for your clever and objective comment about the François Chevalier’s book. You should know that the introduction has been totally written by the sponsor of the book. And contains some inacurracies. François asked to corrected them. Which has not been done. One example : François, a well- known yachting historian, could not have stated that « the foils were forbidden from 1961 to 1966 ».

 

All the actors of the Little America’s Cup have kindly delivered to François a lot of informations. Some interesting stuff suggested by François for the book has not been used. Or refused. Like the story of RUSH, the first Swiss C-Class catamaran, built in 1967.

 

I guess the author – a naval architect - has done a fantastic job in re-designing all the sail plans of the C-Class since 1961. In the same spirit he had formerly produced all the plans of the America’s Cup in his eight kilos huge book.

 

Another mistake from the sponsor is the choice of the cover. The Little America’s Cup has always been a DUEL. Why to choose a single boat for the cover ? And the photograph is really dull.

 

I am also worried by the Biographies section (at the end). A double page only for all the great actors of the LAC history is terribly restrictive. A picture of these actors was mandatory. Nothing about Gino Morelli, Pete Melvin, Austin Farrar (Emma Hamilton et Lady Helmsman in the 60’), John Downey, Lee Griswold et Chuck Manning (Cabrillo Beach Club. Challengers from 1976 to 1989), Graeme Fraser, David Churcher, Tony Love (designer of the The Edges), Tim Daddo (he has been the C-Class president), Henri Elliot, Rémi Laval-Jeantet, Paul Larsen and many others…

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Bertarelli's cat, Alinghi, was white, but I know, that's not the point.

What won the cup was black indeed, and had a wing. And that wing was what I think led to the creation of the D35 class.

 

 

 

Caramba! Encore raté!

 

The boat was called "Le Black" and the D35 were a simpler design extrapolated from this catamaran.post-38061-0-99385100-1442681672_thumb.jpg

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La 28ème LittleCup sera organisée par la Fondation Hydros et aura lieu à Berlin, St Tropez ou Abu Dhabi.

La décision sera prise par la Classe C dans quelques semaines ou mois.

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Bertarelli's cat, Alinghi, was white, but I know, that's not the point.

What won the cup was black indeed, and had a wing. And that wing was what I think led to the creation of the D35 class.

 

 

 

Caramba! Encore raté!

 

The boat was called "Le Black" and the D35 were a simpler design extrapolated from this catamaran.attachicon.gifleblack.jpg

 

Oops !

I wrongly assumed you were talking about de AC en cleverly confused D35 with AC45.

I apologize.

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Google translation of comments on the abc website: http://abcclass.fr/ I want to thank the people involved with the abc website for their work in providing information and videos on the racing as well as thanks to Luka for his great work. It's a damn shame SA(or anyone else)wasn't there for live video. Congratulations to Team Groupama for their win and for advancing the technology!

 

It's so cool how the C Class has "taught" the AC about wings and the AC has inspired the C Class(and particularly Groupama) with uptip foils!!

 

 

1) In Geneva, on the banks of Lake Geneva, Louis Franck Cammas and Groupama led their Viat C catamaran to victory in the LittleCup 2015, thus achieving a historic double after their title won in 2013 in England. Winner of Switzerland 2-0 Axon final after dominating qualifying, the Groupama crew affects the extraordinary dividend work done by his design team based in Lorient, which now is the 35th America's Cup.
Favorites given since the beginning of the week, Franck Cammas and Louis Viat were level with the hopes placed in them by observers: "It is one thing to be the favorites, it is another win. Louis Viat, we took a lot of pleasure to race together on a lake yet difficult to grasp. "
Despite the little time that has dominated all week, the hydrofoil catamaran left only the eight inning run at its competitors: "This boat is extraordinary. At the slightest puff, it speeds up and gets up on her foils "continues the skipper of Groupama.
Designed by Franck Cammas and Groupama sailing team design office in 2012, just after the victory in the Volvo Ocean Race, Groupama C leaves no one indifferent: "This week we had a few visits. Some announced, other more subtle like that of Andy Claughton, in charge of technology developed in the English team BAR for the 35th America's Cup, "says one member of the tricolor team.
"Groupama C is very successful and is clearly developed technology similar to that used on the Cup boats. The work of our team will greatly contribute to the design of the future Groupama Team France. It is even in this sense that we had decided to engage in the Little Cup in 2012 with Groupama. "
Often with one step ahead, not only on water, Franck Cammas is now a happy skipper: "It's always nice to win. Thank you to the whole team who participated in this project. It has not worked for nothing, the evidence. We will now address more directly to America. What we learned here will serve especially as the AC45 sailing days are restricted by the regulation. "
Groupama C, which is most likely the boat in the world that has the best speed / energy expended, will be dismantled on Sunday to be reduced to Lorient, home port of the French team.
Remains to know where and when will be held the 28th LittleCup? Anyway, one thing is clear: the organization proposed by the team Hydros Switzerland and Lombard Odier partner under the direction of French and Jeremiah Lagarigue Horeau was, too, very high level.
Finally, note the beautiful performance of the finalists Marie Benoit and Benoit Morelle who despite Archimedean a boat designed in the last century, took advantage of the little time that prevailed on Lake Geneva to qualify for the final.
As for Franck Cammas, as soon as the competition is over, it will jump to its base Lorient and La Rochelle before joining her teammate in Barcelona, ​​Sophie de Turckheim, and prepare for the European Championships Nacra 17.
When you were told that the skipper of Groupama was often a step ahead ...

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from the abc website

 

2) The small cut remains French

Eole sulked the end of the duel between Icarus and Archimedes in the final day of LITTLECUP 2015, but the verdict is still final.

The French duo of Groupama Sailing Team retains the trophy after a week of competition he clearly dominated and won 2 races after to 0 in a match race against Axon Racing Friday.

The final should have continued today and the first team crowned champion 3 winning matches, but Geneva and unpredictable conditions have decided otherwise. For almost total lack of wind, the Race Committee has agreed to designate the winner leading team. "Too bad, we would have liked to follow through," comments Marie Benoît a disappointment at the lack of racing.

On the side of the Petite Final played in 2 rounds of fleet races yesterday also, it is the Swiss Norgador that rise on the 3rd step of the podium just before the German team Sentient Blue.

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Just landed in Geneva. I'm having some difficulties figuring out what is happening tomorrow. The program says "Geneva Fleet Race". What does that mean? Is the event held at SNG? Thanks for any info you can provide.

 

I've left Geneva, but from what I understand it's a non counting race in the geneva inner harbor, visible from the promenades. Steve Clark should be sailing on Cammas' boat. It's just a bit of publicity.

 

With Steve selling both this boats and a few more around that can be acquired as platforms for wing and foil projects there should be enough stock to keep the class going for the next cycle.

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From The Foiling Week:

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From my limited experience, managing projects with limited financial resources can result in the best solution, if you have the right team. Just throwing oodles of money at something doesn't guarantee a good result.

 

I don't know much about the other teams in this event, but hearing that Axxon/ex-Cogito only found out about the event and decided to enter a few months before is telling. They did well because they are very good sailors, were sailing a relatively simple boat and probably focused on maximizing time on the water in the weeks/months leading up to the event itself. Groupama has clearly spent time improving systems/foils/aero package, work done as development for the AC35, but I am willing to bet Franck and Louis spent more time on the water in the last 3 years than any other team bar none, and hence were able to get the most out of their platform.

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My subjective impression is that the black boats were not very good in the light stuff, and that if Besson and Cammas had switched boats, the green boat would have still won.

Also is seems pretty off the wall to suggest that anything much more from the C cats would scale up and be directly applicable to the OD 50 footers of the AC.

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Foils and control systems would definitely "scale up". Wings would scale up but they're one design so it doesn't matter.

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Hypothetically speaking, of course.....................

 

Why let scaling laws get in the way of imagination.

 

Remember Power is NOTHING without Control

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Maybe the other side of the coin would be; what if all the AC teams had C cats as trainer/trial horses? It makes some sense to train with a smaller wing, and that is where the AC guys got their wing to begin with.

There would be a C cat race in bermuda instead of a flying phantom race.

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Maybe the other side of the coin would be; what if all the AC teams had C cats as trainer/trial horses? It makes some sense to train with a smaller wing, and that is where the AC guys got their wing to begin with.

There would be a C cat race in bermuda instead of a flying phantom race.

The issue is why an AC team would want to limit themselves to a trainer that has to fit within a box rule. Last time around, teams used a variety of trial boats which they modified to suit their own purposes. We saw everything from modified A Class to modified Tornados to modified SL33's and more.

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