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bigrpowr

Rib Accident at VOR Lorient Start

620 posts in this topic

i saw them flying around the start area at pre start. i wondered how that works. i hope the woman is ok !

 

post-104232-0-06759700-1434593655_thumb.jpg

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Spindrift does not have a great record...

 

This is an impressive but scary video of the prior Spindrift, a Mod 70 as she capsizes in 2013. Apparently same skipper in both incidents.

 

 

 

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Spindrift does not have a great record...

 

This is an impressive but scary video of the prior Spindrift, a Mod 70 as she capsizes in 2013. Apparently same skipper in both incidents.

 

 

 

at the start , in the background you could see them hauling ass off the wind , kinda show boating in the bay. i thought it was odd for the start of a big race.

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i saw them flying around the start area at pre start. i wondered how that works. i hope the woman is ok !

 

attachicon.gifrib accident.jpg

judging by the trajectory of that rudder as apposed to the woman's body, that could be a horror movie.

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The sponsors are going to love this.

 

Nothing like a big blood stain on the water to bring those $$$ in .

 

A huge bloodstain slowly spreading in the sea near the canoe struck by the boat. After twenty minutes, a helicopter arrived and hoisted the victim, which looks very bad shape and was collected on board a boat of rescuers.

 

full story from Skuttle butt here

 

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2015/06/17/volvo-ocean-race-drama-on-the-sidelines/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Scuttlebutt+4356+-+June+18+2015&utm_content=Scuttlebutt+4356+-+June+18+2015+CID_755a95f87c134b98ca48f682d013798c&utm_source=Email%20Newsletter

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Saint Philibert, 17 June 2015 – The trimaran Spindrift 2 was involved in an accident yesterday with a motor boat from the Volvo Ocean Race organisation.

While under reduced sail, Spindrift 2 was in collision with the rib which was crossing its path.

A person on board the motor boat was seriously injured. She received attention from the emergency services and was then transported to the Scorff hospital in Lorient.

Yann Guichard, skipper of Spindrift 2, said: « Above all else, we are concerned about the condition of the injured person. All our thoughts go out to her and to her family. The team has been deeply affected by the accident and naturally we are cooperating fully with the investigation that is underway. »

 

 

http://www.spindrift-racing.com/2015/06/message-de-spindrift-racing/

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lots of additional comments on the leg threat and on the front page, gents. (but good to have a separate threat)

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1. This is a terrible, terrible tragedy.

2. Spindrift 2 is going to be nailed to the wall on this. There is no excuse for the level of incompetence/disregard for safety they displayed. This year's "Captain Schettino Arrogance At Sea" Award winners.

3. Sailing Anarchy demanding "better-trained photo boat drivers". I would laugh, but not in these circumstances.

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Might be an idea to wait for the facts to come out before the pitchforks come out.

 

Just saying.

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Mad- If this was a marshall boat policing the exclusion area (not a photo boat) as VOR and onboard reporter have said, and the incident took place inside this done by close to the start line, as both VOR and onboard reporters have said, then Spindrift 2 is going to be in deep shit.

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We don't know details yet. But I think it is a bit much to expect marshalls on a course for 65 foot monohulls to have intimate knowledge of what every vessel in the spectator fleet is capable of. If the spectator fleet for a 4ksb event was all F1 powerboats, AC72s and foiling kiteboards I wish Clean the best of luck in marshalling them, even with his immense knowledge of everything that floats.

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if the rib was a marshall boat, isn't it the spectators' job to keep clear of them?

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It looks like it's got the "security" flag, therefore it would have been responsible to keep the spectators in their areas.

Anyway, even if the RIB misjudged the closing speed of the tri, wouldn't it have been prudent for a machine as Spindrift to behave very, very carefully while being so close to many other, smaller, slower craft? You wouldn't speed with a race car in a paddock or at a spectator zone either.

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Flag color makes it clear that it was a security rib.

The marshaling rib driver is widely reported to be (very) experienced in this role

Crew consisted of father, mother, daughter and a friend. (Source is the son, scroll down, or some someone playing him on the Internet.)

 

Loss of limb is confirmed, loss of life seems to be averted - for the moment.

 

 

Dona Bertarelli was on Spindift (source) at the time of the accident.

Various reports say that Yann was driving but that is obviously not easy to confirm.

 

One of the larger questions is the details of the separation / exclusion zone set by the prefecture (local government) for the start area. Hard to find out when you don't speak french.

Once you have the details, did the accident happen within or without that zone.

 

Also: It is easy to conclude the investigation by shouting COLREGS!!! - Within the 12nm zone national regulations can supersede the colregs. Do such national rules exist in France, and if so are they applicable.

(There was some major Internet argument going on in Germany a while back when a Sunseeker Predator sliced and diced a windsurfer. Windsurfers are classed as toys in Germany and must keep clear of everyone else, OTOH that does not remove the overarching rule that everyone has to do everything possible to avoid collisions.)

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That tri should either have been sailing on engine, or been way far from there... Just my HO

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That tri should either have been sailing on engine, or been way far from there... Just my HO

Not sure if the engine would make a shit of difference to that thing powered up.

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small boat hits big boat

we know who had the ability to avoid.....

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Instead of tooling around the spectator area, they should have anchored. Everyone could have gotten a good look at this craft, but no one would have gotten hurt.

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from the photos it looks like the RIB was dead in the water,

and if it was a marshal boat, its job is to keep spectator boats

out of the start / race area. i.e. not a give-way function

 

if it was in position, + stationary or very slow, what the fuck was

spindrift doing sailing like that at the edge of the start / race area?

 

showing off?

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If Spindrift had hit rowing boat then it would be another story.

But it was powerful RIB with 1000x better maneuverability in than 40m trimaran.

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if the rib was a marshall boat, isn't it the spectators' job to keep clear of them?

 

Short answer is Yes (probably).

 

The Colregs this close to shore are probably superceded by the national authority regulations, which are by treaty coordinated with Colregs anyway, so a good basis is just go to the Colregs. An exclusion zone like this (if organized correctly) is designed as a Traffic Separation Scheme, and a Marshall enforcing/coordinating that TSS is defined as "Restricted in her Ability to Manuever" based on that role, so ALL vessels must keep clear.

 

Even if the I's and T's aren't dotted and crossed on that, all of these regulations have flexibility to assign responsibility based on interpretations of facts. The Colregs aren't a suicide pact.

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The exclusion zones are demarcated by buoys and patrolled by the marshals in RIBs, who fall under the control of Tom Ehler (husband of Abby, sailing on SCA), the Chief Course Marshall appointed by the VOR organisers, working with local team leaders. The marshalling RIBs are drawn from the local community and comprehensively briefed by Tom before heading out on the water. I did marshalling here in Cape Town and it was well organised.

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The Colregs this close to shore are probably superceded by the national authority regulations, which are by treaty coordinated with Colregs anyway, so a good basis is just go to the Colregs. An exclusion zone like this (if organized correctly) is designed as a Traffic Separation Scheme, and a Marshall enforcing/coordinating that TSS is defined as "Restricted in her Ability to Manuever" based on that role, so ALL vessels must keep clear.

 

 

What the what?

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Posted (edited)

http://www.bosunsmate.org/seamanship/rulesoftheroad.php

 

Rule 10 Traffic Separation Scheme

...skip to...

(k) A vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver when engaged in an operation for the maintenance of safety of navigation in a traffic separating scheme is exempted from complying with this Rule to the extent necessary to carry out the operation.

 

An exclusion zone like this is a traffic separation scheme. It is put there to ensure the safety of the vessels involved in racing as well as the spectator fleet. So they have buoys marking it out and marshall boats to operate and maintain the safety in the race zone. They are on station and trying, to the best of their ability to monitor the hundreds/thousands of boat moving all around, and likely in close proximity to other official boats. That is why they are restricted in ability to maneuver.

 

That's the what the what.

Edited by alcoholfunnycar

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"An exclusion zone like this is a traffic separation scheme."

 

Don't think so? AFAIK a TSS is a "ship routing scheme" as defined in SOLAS chapter 5 which also says the IMO is the only body that can authorise such schemes. SOLAS is international law.

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so driving into a stationary traffic policeman

directing traffic is fine as long as the light is green?

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so driving into a stationary traffic policeman

directing traffic is fine as long as the light is green?

 

Just because you are right doesn't make you bulletproof.

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so driving into a stationary traffic policeman

directing traffic is fine as long as the light is green?

Was the rib stationary? Photos suggest no.

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Donno if anyone already posted or said something about this, but does anyone notice the guy driving seemingly laughing his ass off and Gesturing "this much" (as in I missed ya by this much) in the 2nd and or 3rd pic?? Probably some ungodly good sailor in a moment of levity before he realized the consequences of his actions but still... Bad form and tragic.....

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small boat hits big boat

we know who had the ability to avoid.....

Assuming they were expecting a monster tri blasting across the edge of the prohibited zone.

I've been to a few of these events, most recently the Newport stopover. Had Spindrift gone flying across the edge of the marshal boats there at "go" time, there would have been carnage.

This ranks as one of the biggest asshole moves of the year.

 

+1000 Ultimate douchebaggery. A "hold my beer and watch this" moment. In football we have "he leifed it," as in Ryan Leif. In sailing we have "he guichard it."

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Donno if anyone already posted or said something about this, but does anyone notice the guy driving seemingly laughing his ass off and Gesturing "this much" (as in I missed ya by this much) in the 2nd and or 3rd pic?? Probably some ungodly good sailor in a moment of levity before he realized the consequences of his actions but still... Bad form and tragic.....

 

The images I have seen have been too grainy to tell what if any gesture the skipper is making. With all the faces looking backwards, I think that that crew all knew there was contact. A better photo would tell more but from what I have seen I don't think you are reading the skipper correctly.

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Pics from front page... shot 3

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Pics from front page... shot 3

I was able to enlarge it a bit and see more detail. Could that be co-skipper Dona Bertarelli? In any case it doesn't look like that person was steering at any point even though he/she was standing next to a helm. It is possible Spindrift was being driven from leeward to better view and stay clear of the rest of the spectator fleet.

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Pics from front page... shot 3

 

Here is Pic #3.

 

.volvo-race-accident-4_m.jpg

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The picklefork was powered up to give her go fast multi sponsors max coverage in the media/camera zone of a competing high profile slomo-mono event. Spindrift was engaged in a commercial stunt, not there to spectate or train. Their fucked no matter how you dice it.

 

Those sponsers now have the image of a legless women to paste up beside their respective brands as this thing unfolds in the media attached to enquiries and court proceedings blah blah. Gee they will be real happy about their product placement payback now won't they?

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Pics from front page... shot 3

 

I was able to enlarge it a bit and see more detail. Could that be co-skipper Dona Bertarelli? In any case it doesn't look like that person was steering at any point even though he/she was standing next to a helm. It is possible Spindrift was being driven from leeward to better view and stay clear of the rest of the spectator fleet.

The more I look at it the more it looks like the person in the photo wasn't at the helm station. I think the person was further aft in the cockpit almost at the lifelines rather than at the helm which is forward in the cockpit. The angle of the photo makes it look like the sailor was at helm.

 

Still if the person mistakenly thought that the collision was avoided and was happily joking, it is unfortunate. However much more understandable how a crew member could be mistaken and less serious about what they thought was a near miss. As a driver even if i thought we missed i would be pretty grim and tense about how close it was.

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Quoting Clean from stopover thread when people commented to Multis showing off during the in port:

 

"As for the 'jump on another's train' or 'cheap show-off' comments, that's more than a little naive. Sailing is big business in France, the water is free for all to enjoy, and there is a long tradition of bringing sponsored boats to big events for spectating while getting some sponsor exposure. Plus, the sooner the VOR is multihull, the better, and anything the French can do to help move that along, they do. Showing how comparatively cumbersome and slow the VOR boats are does that nicely."

Great exposure and they certainly demonstrated how something was cumbersome!

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I have started to write this post on a number of occasions and each time deleted it or tried to tone it down as I don't want to appear that I am trying to say "I am the expert" or "I saw it all and this is what happened".

 

I read about the incident in horror - yes read, I wasn't there - like most of the anarchists on this thread.

 

I don't consider myself "an expert" but I am an experienced sailor and RIB driver at such events and know it is a responsibility that takes 100% concentration

 

Any accident at sea is 'not nice'. The fact that if people who should know better 'have a hand in it' make it all the worse. I am not apportioning blame, again I wasn't there and such blame, or otherwise will, no doubt, be for the courts to decide. I have watched this thread - and read some of the comments with disbelief.

 

I usually agree with Mr. Clean but as a lawyer I am sure he is aware there is often a huge difference between morally correct and legally correct or legal responsibility and moral responsibility. As an aside I think this accident does show a little of the dangers of powerful multis being in confined waters (Multis in a VOR in-port race? - we have all seen the carnage that can occur on an Extreme 40 race course and they are a lot lighter than a 70 foot tri)

 

For the record, I have driven a lot of hours on high speed powerboats and have driven and been on photo, chase or umpire RIBs at a significant number of sailing events including VOR stopovers. Sometimes taking the pictures or umpiring but also as a driver.

 

The specialist professional photographers I have driven for know I am no idiot and take it from me it is not an easy job, it requires a knowledge of sail racing (what the boats are going to do) - photography (what is the right angle for the shot) and boat handling, both at slow speed AND high speed especially when the camera guy wants a shot of the last boat round the bottom mark and then the 1st boat round the next top mark - all in 20kts of breeze. Or when he asks for a head on shot and you are glad that the 'rule of constant angle' really does work in practice ;-)

 

The comments about the RIB having turned into the path of the tri based on the wake in the foreground, I think, are inconclusive. Telephoto lenses dramatically foreshorten those sort of pics and for a RIB to be going at such speed to produce THAT wake and then turn through THAT angle and to be dead in the water a couple of seconds later? Well I want a RIB that has such miraculous handling characteristics!

 

Anyone who has been to a sailing event (and I have been to a few over the years) knows for a fact that the marshall boats are often ignored by some spectator boats (thankfully a very small minority) who wander closer to the action than either is healthy or the laid exclusion buoys or marshall boats are designed to dictate or at least signal.

 

I remember one (almost) incident when we were in close (we were the official RIB an and not doing anything wrong) in on a mark rounding for a shot and one of the boats dipped below line for a better rounding and I looked to my escape route - if you have one of them never a problem - and there, at least 50 metres inside the exclusion zone was a 35-40' motor cruiser, right where I wanted to go and he was completely unaware of the predicament he had put us in. They had completely ignored the marker buoys and the marshals.

 

You wouldn't drive a London bus round and round at speed at the start of a stage of cycling's Tour de France with other spectator on bicyles or walking about and expect to get away with it no matter what your sponsor (or your boss) was paying you to do it or how good a driver you thought you were and it looks like someone has just turned a 'phew, that was close' moment into a 'for fuck's sake' moment.

 

In my opinion - and I freely admit I wasn't there - the tri should have been under power instead of rushing about trying to (photo)bomb the event in what was, quite apparently from the more general photos of the start area, a very crowded waterway where they had no special rights at all.

 

You wouldn't ignore a policeman on dry land or drive so close to him there was risk of hitting him.

 

Anyway it happened, it would appear (again I don't know) that the woman is out of immediate danger of death BUT she has suffered a life changing trauma if reports of her losing her leg are correct - again I haven't had time to read that element.

 

I just hope there is not a 'jerking of the knee' from the authorities that could impact on the ability of so many of us being able to be out on the water to watch such a spectacle.

 

That said, you often get a better view on the telecast in any case and don't have to worry about hitting another boat when you are watching it from the comfort of the yacht club bar or the couch at home with a tinny in your hand.

 

A sad day for lady in question and I would wish her well ( as I hope we all do) with her recovery and rehabilitation , and her husband who will no doubt carry around the guilt (even if not for the accident but for taking his wife on the boat with him) for some considerable time and also be thankful that the French rescue authorities had the forethought and presence of mind to actually have rescue RIBs on the scene 'just in case'. Wouldn't it have been nice is their being there had just been a complete waste of time!!

 

You may disagree with me but this incident was so avoidable.

 

SS

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Thanks SS for the reasoned POV. I have to agree that it was stupid of Spindrift to be "showing off" as someone put it, and creating a risk that was totally unnecessary. Bad seamanship - from people who I would have trusted to know better.

 

Best wishes to the lady for a quick recovery, although her life will be changed forever. At least she is still alive - too easily, that might have been different also.

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I have started to write this post on a number of occasions and each time deleted it or tried to tone it down as I don't want to appear that I am trying to say "I am the expert" or "I saw it all and this is what happened".

 

I read about the incident in horror - yes read, I wasn't there - like most of the anarchists on this thread.

 

I don't consider myself "an expert" but I am an experienced sailor and RIB driver at such events and know it is a responsibility that takes 100% concentration

 

Any accident at sea is 'not nice'. The fact that if people who should know better 'have a hand in it' make it all the worse. I am not apportioning blame, again I wasn't there and such blame, or otherwise will, no doubt, be for the courts to decide. I have watched this thread - and read some of the comments with disbelief.

 

I usually agree with Mr. Clean but as a lawyer I am sure he is aware there is often a huge difference between morally correct and legally correct or legal responsibility and moral responsibility. As an aside I think this accident does show a little of the dangers of powerful multis being in confined waters (Multis in a VOR in-port race? - we have all seen the carnage that can occur on an Extreme 40 race course and they are a lot lighter than a 70 foot tri)

 

For the record, I have driven a lot of hours on high speed powerboats and have driven and been on photo, chase or umpire RIBs at a significant number of sailing events including VOR stopovers. Sometimes taking the pictures or umpiring but also as a driver.

 

The specialist professional photographers I have driven for know I am no idiot and take it from me it is not an easy job, it requires a knowledge of sail racing (what the boats are going to do) - photography (what is the right angle for the shot) and boat handling, both at slow speed AND high speed especially when the camera guy wants a shot of the last boat round the bottom mark and then the 1st boat round the next top mark - all in 20kts of breeze. Or when he asks for a head on shot and you are glad that the 'rule of constant angle' really does work in practice ;-)

 

The comments about the RIB having turned into the path of the tri based on the wake in the foreground, I think, are inconclusive. Telephoto lenses dramatically foreshorten those sort of pics and for a RIB to be going at such speed to produce THAT wake and then turn through THAT angle and to be dead in the water a couple of seconds later? Well I want a RIB that has such miraculous handling characteristics!

 

Anyone who has been to a sailing event (and I have been to a few over the years) knows for a fact that the marshall boats are often ignored by some spectator boats (thankfully a very small minority) who wander closer to the action than either is healthy or the laid exclusion buoys or marshall boats are designed to dictate or at least signal.

 

I remember one (almost) incident when we were in close (we were the official RIB an and not doing anything wrong) in on a mark rounding for a shot and one of the boats dipped below line for a better rounding and I looked to my escape route - if you have one of them never a problem - and there, at least 50 metres inside the exclusion zone was a 35-40' motor cruiser, right where I wanted to go and he was completely unaware of the predicament he had put us in. They had completely ignored the marker buoys and the marshals.

 

You wouldn't drive a London bus round and round at speed at the start of a stage of cycling's Tour de France with other spectator on bicyles or walking about and expect to get away with it no matter what your sponsor (or your boss) was paying you to do it or how good a driver you thought you were and it looks like someone has just turned a 'phew, that was close' moment into a 'for fuck's sake' moment.

 

In my opinion - and I freely admit I wasn't there - the tri should have been under power instead of rushing about trying to (photo)bomb the event in what was, quite apparently from the more general photos of the start area, a very crowded waterway where they had no special rights at all.

 

You wouldn't ignore a policeman on dry land or drive so close to him there was risk of hitting him.

 

Anyway it happened, it would appear (again I don't know) that the woman is out of immediate danger of death BUT she has suffered a life changing trauma if reports of her losing her leg are correct - again I haven't had time to read that element.

 

I just hope there is not a 'jerking of the knee' from the authorities that could impact on the ability of so many of us being able to be out on the water to watch such a spectacle.

 

That said, you often get a better view on the telecast in any case and don't have to worry about hitting another boat when you are watching it from the comfort of the yacht club bar or the couch at home with a tinny in your hand.

 

A sad day for lady in question and I would wish her well ( as I hope we all do) with her recovery and rehabilitation , and her husband who will no doubt carry around the guilt (even if not for the accident but for taking his wife on the boat with him) for some considerable time and also be thankful that the French rescue authorities had the forethought and presence of mind to actually have rescue RIBs on the scene 'just in case'. Wouldn't it have been nice is their being there had just been a complete waste of time!!

 

You may disagree with me but this incident was so avoidable.

 

SS

like i said , before that happened you could see spindrift going for tv time at the start, it just screamed look at me and not them. such a bummer.

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Does anyone have any video of the moments before impact?

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Is the bottom of the rudder slightly red in photo three?

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Without video of the lead up to the collision, it is difficult to tell how much blame lays on each party. While I question the wisdom of Spindrift being right at the start crowding the marshal boats because of the possibility of a colision, the actual sequence of the accident isn't yet known.

 

I hope video comes out but even barring video there will be enough eyewitnesses and perhaps gps tracks that an official report will likely get to the bottom of what happened.

 

Until then it is premature to assign blame for the collision to either Spindrift or the marshal boat.

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Does anyone have any video of the moments before impact?

When did the collision occur?

 

If it was before the 5 minute warning then Spindrift may have been trying to leave to start area.

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Where they probably shouldn't have been in the first place !!

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Where they probably shouldn't have been in the first place !!

This may be the case but no one seems to know

 

"OK, there is 15 minutes to the start, we need to get out of here and park somewhere near the first turning mark"

 

"Looking pretty crowded both sides, how about we scoot down the race track where the marshals have cleared the way for the VOR fleet"

 

"Great idea, we should be at the bottom mark before they start"

 

"Did you see the look on the marshal as we went past, he wasn't happy but I think we should be clear now"

 

"RIB on the starboard bow"

 

"Thanks, keep an eye on it for me, there are a couple of boats below that we have to avoid too"

 

"RIB still closing..."

 

CRUNCH !!

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I have started to write this post on a number of occasions and each time deleted it or tried to tone it down as I don't want to appear that I am trying to say "I am the expert" or "I saw it all and this is what happened".

 

I read about the incident in horror - yes read, I wasn't there - like most of the anarchists on this thread.

 

I don't consider myself "an expert" but I am an experienced sailor and RIB driver at such events and know it is a responsibility that takes 100% concentration

 

Any accident at sea is 'not nice'. The fact that if people who should know better 'have a hand in it' make it all the worse. I am not apportioning blame, again I wasn't there and such blame, or otherwise will, no doubt, be for the courts to decide. I have watched this thread - and read some of the comments with disbelief.

 

I usually agree with Mr. Clean but as a lawyer I am sure he is aware there is often a huge difference between morally correct and legally correct or legal responsibility and moral responsibility. As an aside I think this accident does show a little of the dangers of powerful multis being in confined waters (Multis in a VOR in-port race? - we have all seen the carnage that can occur on an Extreme 40 race course and they are a lot lighter than a 70 foot tri)

 

For the record, I have driven a lot of hours on high speed powerboats and have driven and been on photo, chase or umpire RIBs at a significant number of sailing events including VOR stopovers. Sometimes taking the pictures or umpiring but also as a driver.

 

The specialist professional photographers I have driven for know I am no idiot and take it from me it is not an easy job, it requires a knowledge of sail racing (what the boats are going to do) - photography (what is the right angle for the shot) and boat handling, both at slow speed AND high speed especially when the camera guy wants a shot of the last boat round the bottom mark and then the 1st boat round the next top mark - all in 20kts of breeze. Or when he asks for a head on shot and you are glad that the 'rule of constant angle' really does work in practice ;-)

 

The comments about the RIB having turned into the path of the tri based on the wake in the foreground, I think, are inconclusive. Telephoto lenses dramatically foreshorten those sort of pics and for a RIB to be going at such speed to produce THAT wake and then turn through THAT angle and to be dead in the water a couple of seconds later? Well I want a RIB that has such miraculous handling characteristics!

 

Anyone who has been to a sailing event (and I have been to a few over the years) knows for a fact that the marshall boats are often ignored by some spectator boats (thankfully a very small minority) who wander closer to the action than either is healthy or the laid exclusion buoys or marshall boats are designed to dictate or at least signal.

 

I remember one (almost) incident when we were in close (we were the official RIB an and not doing anything wrong) in on a mark rounding for a shot and one of the boats dipped below line for a better rounding and I looked to my escape route - if you have one of them never a problem - and there, at least 50 metres inside the exclusion zone was a 35-40' motor cruiser, right where I wanted to go and he was completely unaware of the predicament he had put us in. They had completely ignored the marker buoys and the marshals.

 

You wouldn't drive a London bus round and round at speed at the start of a stage of cycling's Tour de France with other spectator on bicyles or walking about and expect to get away with it no matter what your sponsor (or your boss) was paying you to do it or how good a driver you thought you were and it looks like someone has just turned a 'phew, that was close' moment into a 'for fuck's sake' moment.

 

In my opinion - and I freely admit I wasn't there - the tri should have been under power instead of rushing about trying to (photo)bomb the event in what was, quite apparently from the more general photos of the start area, a very crowded waterway where they had no special rights at all.

 

You wouldn't ignore a policeman on dry land or drive so close to him there was risk of hitting him.

 

Anyway it happened, it would appear (again I don't know) that the woman is out of immediate danger of death BUT she has suffered a life changing trauma if reports of her losing her leg are correct - again I haven't had time to read that element.

 

I just hope there is not a 'jerking of the knee' from the authorities that could impact on the ability of so many of us being able to be out on the water to watch such a spectacle.

 

That said, you often get a better view on the telecast in any case and don't have to worry about hitting another boat when you are watching it from the comfort of the yacht club bar or the couch at home with a tinny in your hand.

 

A sad day for lady in question and I would wish her well ( as I hope we all do) with her recovery and rehabilitation , and her husband who will no doubt carry around the guilt (even if not for the accident but for taking his wife on the boat with him) for some considerable time and also be thankful that the French rescue authorities had the forethought and presence of mind to actually have rescue RIBs on the scene 'just in case'. Wouldn't it have been nice is their being there had just been a complete waste of time!!

 

You may disagree with me but this incident was so avoidable.

 

SS

 

well written and argued - as you'd expect from a lawyer :) - but also what I've been thinking. it made me really uncomfortable reading folk immediately pointing the finger at the rib driver. it reminded me of a thread from some time ago from the clipper 13/14 race where some folk were slating two of the yachts coming out of Hobart, before realising some hours later that we had been in the midst of a medevac. to be fair, there was a sense of shock afterwards, but it's a bit off-putting for a noob who is reading these forums to get info on the VOR and general banter. I know I may get a 'this is sailing anarchy, if you don't like it - leave' but it's a great resource for sailing info from around the world.

 

I wasn't there, but I certainly have an idea in my head of what happened. but that's where it's staying. because I wasn't there. this is now for the authorities to unravel and apportion blame. I feel bad for the lady on the rib who now has life-changing injuries, and her husband too. but also a bit for the spindrift crew.

 

it's a horrible stain on what I think is a really great race, especially this year as it's been so close and there has been a team which has put the ladies first.

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I can't find a picture, but YEARS ago a friend described a giant French catamaran (TAG?) threading through the spectator fleet at a tall ships parade in NY flying a hull, with the 14' daggerboard on the windward hull clear of the water- it was a laugh because it was so nuts. I guess that this (hot dogging) has been going on for awhile, and as always it is admirable balls unless/ until someone gets hurt.

Best wishes to the injured.

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The stupidity is strong here.

We don't need COLREGS to manage a VOR start. Common sense should be enough.

 

Yes but that's not where we are now. There's going to be an investigation, certainly insurance claims, possibly civil cases, possibly criminal charges. So it's entered the land of rules.

 

Like most here, I think Spindrift tearing it up around the start area was highly irresponsible even if it has been common practice and in this case obviously ended very badly indeed. However who was at fault under the rules isn't so obvious.

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How anyone can defend a huge spectator boat rip shitting around the pre-start area of a race course is beyond me. There is simply no sea(wo)manship here at all. You want to rip shit around a crowded starting line? Register for the race. You don't want to register, but you want to be there? Manoeuvre with extreme caution, hold a position, or anchor in designated areas. A starting line is not the place for non-entrants to show off the speed of their boat

Absolutely ridiculous that there is a moments consideration that an official boat that was probably moving very slowly was to blame for being run over by a gigantic (non-entry) boat moving swiftly under sail. Before the daggers come out: I was not there and I do not know exactly what happened. Perhaps, contrary to the pictures, the sailboat was merely motoring, with extreme caution (as per the conditions) and the RIB suddenly changed course and sped under the bows of the sailboat, and without the helm of the sailboat having any opportunity to avoid a collision.

If you think that following prudent seamanship at all times is for losers, then perhaps you should reconsider the term "sailing" in the site's name?

 

 

 

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How anyone can defend a huge spectator boat rip shitting around the pre-start area of a race course is beyond me. There is simply no sea(wo)manship here at all. You want to rip shit around a crowded starting line? Register for the race. You don't want to register, but you want to be there? Manoeuvre with extreme caution, hold a position, or anchor in designated areas. A starting line is not the place for non-entrants to show off the speed of their boat

Absolutely ridiculous that there is a moments consideration that an official boat that was probably moving very slowly was to blame for being run over by a gigantic (non-entry) boat moving swiftly under sail. Before the daggers come out: I was not there and I do not know exactly what happened. Perhaps, contrary to the pictures, the sailboat was merely motoring, with extreme caution (as per the conditions) and the RIB suddenly changed course and sped under the bows of the sailboat, and without the helm of the sailboat having any opportunity to avoid a collision.

If you think that following prudent seamanship at all times is for losers, then perhaps you should reconsider the term "sailing" in the site's name?

 

The fact that there was a very bad outcome here is undeniable, but to condemn sailing in crowded waters is taking it too far, as is suggesting that the only safe way to maneuver is under power. People have been successfully sailing in very crowded conditions, be it the AC, Fleet Week, 4th of July, or whatever for a long time without any higher risk than power boats, probably less.

I've also heard people getting snooty about sailing into an anchorage or into a marina. Properly handled and in the right conditions it can be low risk, no more so than being under power. In either case it can go to hell, either blowing a tack or getting a line in the prop, or whatever, but the means of propulsion has nothing to do with good seamanship.

If YOU are not confident taking YOUR boat there under sail then don't, but don't tell me that it is never safe to do.

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The stupidity is strong here.

We don't need COLREGS to manage a VOR start. Common sense should be enough.

Yes but that's not where we are now. There's going to be an investigation, certainly insurance claims, possibly civil cases, possibly criminal charges. So it's entered the land of rules.

 

Like most here, I think Spindrift tearing it up around the start area was highly irresponsible even if it has been common practice and in this case obviously ended very badly indeed. However who was at fault under the rules isn't so obvious.

I want to make clear I wasn't saying that "legally" and "under the rules" Spindrift2 was obviously "at fault". Likewise, my saying " Traffic Separation Scheme" isn't saying it for sure is or was "officially" that. Thing is that is what it was in practice, and the colregs (and probably the local authority regs) all big room for situational interpretation on the part of authorities assigning responsibility. This is a lot like the exclusion zones set up around fireworks barges and other special events. They will likely determine these ribs are performing the same action. Because they are!

 

The problem is that beyond the horrific life-changing tragedy for those directly involved, this event is going to be a test case and will direct a new round of regulation for on water events.

 

All because some arrogant asshats wanted to show off for sponsors, piggybacking on the VOR media.

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The coverage of the start (-5.26 minutes) doesn't show any large trimaran in the general area.

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I think none of us can make a call about fault in this case as we haven't seen the incident unfold..

 

I have no idea where the fault lies here but as a general comment I'd like to make an observation about both marshalling and photography RIB drivers….

 

There seem to be two types of drivers: Those who understand sailing and those who don't. Those who don't can be a distraction and a liability to the racers and spectators with uninformed instructions and poor placement of their own boats.

 

If these drivers set the standards we will all be spectating from many hundreds of yards away.

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And yeah, I've driven plenty of photo and official boats at high profile regattas. It's a tough job and not for the inexperienced.

 

First thing I will note is that is a big rib to have a single 115hp outboard. That is not the drivers fault or organizers fault, but it means you simply don't have the horsepower or prop to quickly move. Obviously that was not the purpose of this boat, to aggressively police the area. So again, limited maneuverability.

 

Second, when you are driving a boat like this, there are so many distractions and considerations: it is overwhelming. You have crew on board in an open boat. You are coordinating with a dozen other official boats on one channel, the race committee and race boats on another, and the local authorities on yet another. Meanwhile you are keeping watch on literally hundreds of boats of varying size, speed, characteristics and sophistication, not to mention sobriety or arrogance.

 

Here is my pure speculation of what happened. Spindrift2 was showboating around the start area where the action and cameras were. They wound their way through the fleet back and forth for quite some time and as the start approached, used the open space created by the race exclusion zone for some dramatic runs. They approached the start line from the leeward port side on port tack to get inside the clear water created by the buoys and marshall boats. Without that clear water there was no way to dare flying a hull. So they went in there deliberately. They got close to the line and felt it time to tack. They tacked on to starboard.

 

Meanwhile, the marshal boat quite likely saw them crossing at high speed on port toward the line dozens of meters to leward. They may have been annoyed, or may have been enthralled by this glorious machine, but either way trusting their professionalism. Then, dozens of meters away (2-3 boatlengths for Spindrift), they may or may not have seen the blazing mega-tri tack right toward them. In the fresh breeze, and given the acceleration and size of the yacht and split seconds to make a decision, I'm actually impressed with the action of the rib driver. What would happen if you move forward? Likely all dead move back? Not enough prop or horsepower. Jumping overboard may have been the best option!

 

By contrast, what positive action did the Spindrift2 crew take?

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And yeah, I've driven plenty of photo and official boats at high profile regattas. It's a tough job and not for the inexperienced.

 

First thing I will note is that is a big rib to have a single 115hp outboard. That is not the drivers fault or organizers fault, but it means you simply don't have the horsepower or prop to quickly move. Obviously that was not the purpose of this boat, to aggressively police the area. So again, limited maneuverability.

 

Second, when you are driving a boat like this, there are so many distractions and considerations: it is overwhelming. You have crew on board in an open boat. You are coordinating with a dozen other official boats on one channel, the race committee and race boats on another, and the local authorities on yet another. Meanwhile you are keeping watch on literally hundreds of boats of varying size, speed, characteristics and sophistication, not to mention sobriety or arrogance.

 

Here is my pure speculation of what happened. Spindrift2 was showboating around the start area where the action and cameras were. They wound their way through the fleet back and forth for quite some time and as the start approached, used the open space created by the race exclusion zone for some dramatic runs. They approached the start line from the leeward port side on port tack to get inside the clear water created by the buoys and marshall boats. Without that clear water there was no way to dare flying a hull. So they went in there deliberately. They got close to the line and felt it time to tack. They tacked on to starboard.

 

Meanwhile, the marshal boat quite likely saw them crossing at high speed on port toward the line dozens of meters to leward. They may have been annoyed, or may have been enthralled by this glorious machine, but either way trusting their professionalism. Then, dozens of meters away (2-3 boatlengths for Spindrift), they may or may not have seen the blazing mega-tri tack right toward them. In the fresh breeze, and given the acceleration and size of the yacht and split seconds to make a decision, I'm actually impressed with the action of the rib driver. What would happen if you move forward? Likely all dead move back? Not enough prop or horsepower. Jumping overboard may have been the best option!

 

By contrast, what positive action did the Spindrift2 crew take?

 

I managed to be on a marshall boat at the VOR in-port race in Lisbon. On that occasion marshall boats were mainly sailboats, for what I could see. There was an agreement between VOR and a local yacht club. I guess the club only had some sandwitches and fuel from VOR. I understand the skippers had a briefing on their duties the day before. So it all sounded very simple and relaxed.

 

Our marshall boat was a Bavaria 32 cruise sailboat, so I doubt we would have any great horsepower and manouvre capability. I don't think it should be required for that job if there is enough common sense.

 

Maybe this accident is a lesson that marshalling these races should be more professional (as hinted in the HP) but at a first glance - before any legal consideration applies - it looks like the behaviour of Spindrift was against the common safety consideraton that should be expected by any skipper in any maritime conditions.

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That tri should either have been sailing on engine, or been way far from there... Just my HO

Not sure if the engine would make a shit of difference to that thing powered up.

 

I meant with no sails...

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Leg gone, but apparently stable.

 

http://www.20min.ch/ro/sports/autres/story/Amputee-de-la-jambe-apres-un-choc-avec-Spindrift-2-25284713

 

According to "The Telegram" the injured woman (47 years) is the wife of the man, accustomed to this type of nautical events, which was flying the small boat. The unfortunate was hit by a bowling giant trimaran. She was then transported to the hospital nearest to Lorient, where she was amputated a leg.


From S2

Following the serious accident on Tuesday at Lorient, and out of respect for the victim, Spindrift racing is temporarily suspending its sporting activities.

Yann Guichard, skipper of Spindrift’s GC32, said : “Out of respect for the victim of the accident and those close to her, we have decided to suspend our training for several days. We also wish to pause from competition, and so we will not take part in the GC32 Racing Tour in England next week.”

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How anyone can defend a huge spectator boat rip shitting around the pre-start area of a race course is beyond me. There is simply no sea(wo)manship here at all. You want to rip shit around a crowded starting line? Register for the race. You don't want to register, but you want to be there? Manoeuvre with extreme caution, hold a position, or anchor in designated areas. A starting line is not the place for non-entrants to show off the speed of their boat

Absolutely ridiculous that there is a moments consideration that an official boat that was probably moving very slowly was to blame for being run over by a gigantic (non-entry) boat moving swiftly under sail. Before the daggers come out: I was not there and I do not know exactly what happened. Perhaps, contrary to the pictures, the sailboat was merely motoring, with extreme caution (as per the conditions) and the RIB suddenly changed course and sped under the bows of the sailboat, and without the helm of the sailboat having any opportunity to avoid a collision.

If you think that following prudent seamanship at all times is for losers, then perhaps you should reconsider the term "sailing" in the site's name?

The fact that there was a very bad outcome here is undeniable, but to condemn sailing in crowded waters is taking it too far, as is suggesting that the only safe way to maneuver is under power. People have been successfully sailing in very crowded conditions, be it the AC, Fleet Week, 4th of July, or whatever for a long time without any higher risk than power boats, probably less.

I've also heard people getting snooty about sailing into an anchorage or into a marina. Properly handled and in the right conditions it can be low risk, no more so than being under power. In either case it can go to hell, either blowing a tack or getting a line in the prop, or whatever, but the means of propulsion has nothing to do with good seamanship.

If YOU are not confident taking YOUR boat there under sail then don't, but don't tell me that it is never safe to do.

 

Read the above post carefully. The topic is speed, not means of propulsion.

OK, let's say Spindrift took down the sails and powered their way across a crowded line of spectator and marshal boats at 20 knots. Flying a hull, without the ability to manouvere.

Prudent?

 

I agree completely, in fact that was sort of my point- the fact that they were sailing isn't the issue, they could have been under sail and been within acceptable risk limits. I don't know that they were unable to maneuver though, where did that come from?

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I like to take my pro street drag car to the races and do burnouts in front of the spectator entrance to the pits. The car is street legal after all and there's no posted speed limit. So what if I hit a security guard in a golf cart every once and a while. They should be on the look out for really fast cars in the pit area and not just pedestrians and other golf carts. Totally reasonable and predictible to be racing through that area. After all it is a street legal car.

 

Fuck Spindrift.

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How anyone can defend a huge spectator boat rip shitting around the pre-start area of a race course is beyond me. There is simply no sea(wo)manship here at all. You want to rip shit around a crowded starting line? Register for the race. You don't want to register, but you want to be there? Manoeuvre with extreme caution, hold a position, or anchor in designated areas. A starting line is not the place for non-entrants to show off the speed of their boat

Absolutely ridiculous that there is a moments consideration that an official boat that was probably moving very slowly was to blame for being run over by a gigantic (non-entry) boat moving swiftly under sail. Before the daggers come out: I was not there and I do not know exactly what happened. Perhaps, contrary to the pictures, the sailboat was merely motoring, with extreme caution (as per the conditions) and the RIB suddenly changed course and sped under the bows of the sailboat, and without the helm of the sailboat having any opportunity to avoid a collision.

If you think that following prudent seamanship at all times is for losers, then perhaps you should reconsider the term "sailing" in the site's name?

The fact that there was a very bad outcome here is undeniable, but to condemn sailing in crowded waters is taking it too far, as is suggesting that the only safe way to maneuver is under power. People have been successfully sailing in very crowded conditions, be it the AC, Fleet Week, 4th of July, or whatever for a long time without any higher risk than power boats, probably less.

I've also heard people getting snooty about sailing into an anchorage or into a marina. Properly handled and in the right conditions it can be low risk, no more so than being under power. In either case it can go to hell, either blowing a tack or getting a line in the prop, or whatever, but the means of propulsion has nothing to do with good seamanship.

If YOU are not confident taking YOUR boat there under sail then don't, but don't tell me that it is never safe to do.

 

There is a big difference taking a sailboat through an anchorage and taking one through a moving, dynamic, chaotic, spectator fleet. In the former all the boats are fixed and the sailing skipper has the luxury of time to choose a path to the dock or mooring ball. In the latter, in a crowded fleet churning up waves, creating confusing winds, there is not luxury of time to react. Sailing in a spectator fleet that is poised at a start is just poor seamanship, made doubling bad when the boat is many times the size of most of the fleet and designed for acceleration and speed.

 

I applaud ShanghiSailors comments for they mirrored my own. As I said in the Leg 9 thread, it was bad form to jump on the RIB driver (as CLEAN clearly did) and while official fault may take months to determine, there should be no real defense of taking a massive F1 style racing machine through or near a spectator fleet. It should be recognized at least as poor and/or arrogant decision making and used in the future of "what not to do when..." type moments.

 

My heart goes out to the woman grievously injured and her family for healing of mind and body will take a long time.

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Here is a direct link to a post on this accident by Jean-Sébastien Evrard, who was the photographer who took the photo's of Spindrift 2 posted here earlier.

The text is in French, but one can run this through an online translator.
http://blogs.afp.com/makingof/?post/spindrift-2-lorient-volvo-ocean-race-accident-fauches-par-la-formule-1-des-mers#.VYHKL0bzu8B

Spindrift 2 moments before the accident (AFP / Jean-Sébastien Evrard)

.volvo-race-accident-5_m.jpg

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Here is a direct link to a post on this accident by Jean-Sébastien Evrard, who was the photographer who took the photo's of Spindrift 2 posted here earlier.

 

The text is in French, but one can run this through an online translator.

http://blogs.afp.com/makingof/?post/spindrift-2-lorient-volvo-ocean-race-accident-fauches-par-la-formule-1-des-mers#.VYHKL0bzu8B

 

Spindrift 2 moments before the accident (AFP / Jean-Sébastien Evrard)

.volvo-race-accident-5_m.jpg

I don't see a lot of traffic there....

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First of all, anyone who argues in any way that the RIB is at fault are complete and utter douchecanoes. The RIB is an official part of the organization and that tri had no business being under sail zipping around anywhere near the start area. Period. End of discussion.

 

Prayers go out to the injured woman.

 

Having been on VOR official boats (press and Marshall boats) this year - I fear that the good deal that was available to friends and family of the volunteers that are working the event will evaporate. I hope not but I see VOR clamping down on that out of fear of future litigation. That god this didn't happen in lawsuit happy USA. But I can this also becoming an issue in Euro as well.

 

It sucks all around.

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Here is a direct link to a post on this accident by Jean-Sébastien Evrard, who was the photographer who took the photo's of Spindrift 2 posted here earlier.

 

The text is in French, but one can run this through an online translator.

http://blogs.afp.com/makingof/?post/spindrift-2-lorient-volvo-ocean-race-accident-fauches-par-la-formule-1-des-mers#.VYHKL0bzu8B

 

Spindrift 2 moments before the accident (AFP / Jean-Sébastien Evrard)

.volvo-race-accident-5_m.jpg

I don't see a lot of traffic there....

As you would expect IN THE FUCKING STARTING AREA! Notice the buoy?

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Here is a direct link to a post on this accident by Jean-Sébastien Evrard, who was the photographer who took the photo's of Spindrift 2 posted here earlier.

 

The text is in French, but one can run this through an online translator.

http://blogs.afp.com/makingof/?post/spindrift-2-lorient-volvo-ocean-race-accident-fauches-par-la-formule-1-des-mers#.VYHKL0bzu8B

 

Spindrift 2 moments before the accident (AFP / Jean-Sébastien Evrard)

.volvo-race-accident-5_m.jpg

Didn't the first reports say they sailing with a reefed main?

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Here is a direct link to a post on this accident by Jean-Sébastien Evrard, who was the photographer who took the photo's of Spindrift 2 posted here earlier.

The text is in French, but one can run this through an online translator.http://blogs.afp.com/makingof/?post/spindrift-2-lorient-volvo-ocean-race-accident-fauches-par-la-formule-1-des-mers#.VYHKL0bzu8BSpindrift 2 moments before the accident (AFP / Jean-Sébastien Evrard).volvo-race-accident-5_m.jpg

Didn't the first reports say they sailing with a reefed main?

I believe they only said shortened sail which in this case either means not everything they could possibly fly (the larger furled headsail) or not everything they normally would fly racing in those conditions.

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The spindrift press release said: "While under reduced sail, [...]"

Here it is:

 

CHtkYzvUwAAqkgg.png

 

The incident happened under the above configuration. All the details are there when you compare the pics.

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The spindrift press release said: "While under reduced sail, [...]"

Here it is:

 

Them claiming to have been taking precautions doesn't take anything away from the fact they were going through traffic far too fast. 'Legal' or not it was extremely reckless.

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Here is a direct link to a post on this accident by Jean-Sébastien Evrard, who was the photographer who took the photo's of Spindrift 2 posted here earlier.

The text is in French, but one can run this through an online translator.http://blogs.afp.com/makingof/?post/spindrift-2-lorient-volvo-ocean-race-accident-fauches-par-la-formule-1-des-mers#.VYHKL0bzu8BSpindrift 2 moments before the accident (AFP / Jean-Sébastien Evrard)

.volvo-race-accident-5_m.jpg

 

I don't see a lot of traffic there....
+1

 

There is a lack of information regarding time till start, exactly where the incident happened so until that is published I am reserving my decision.

 

The video of the start shows a lack of spectator fleet so why shut the whole waterway for a start consisting of 7 boats.

 

Flying a hull - that thing would fly a hull tied up to the dock! That is hardly an indication of over powered, out of control behaviour.

 

Edit - Is that the rib's wake in the bottom right hand corner on a parallel course?

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Just a few comments

 

on Audiopixie (post 55) you misunderstood - Mr Clean is a lawyer, not me but thanks for the 'complement'? ha ha

 

ita289 there shouldn't be a problem with sailboats as marshal boats IF (and it is a big IF) what you are marshaling behaves itself. A shepherd with a couple of border collies can control a couple of hundred sheep or in the UK policemen used to patrol on pedal cycles. Trouble is not everyone remembers - or pays attention - to the fundamental reason the marshal boats are there in the first place.

 

bucc5062 I completely agree, sailing into moorings or anchorage is sailing amongst non-moving 'targets' which aren't suddenly going to leap out in front of you.

 

A spectator fleet is almost by definition is NOT looking where they are going. They are there to look at the action and all want as good a view as possible and that naturally distracts.

 

alcoholfunnycar - I agree marshaling is not an easy job BUT should not necessarily need knowledge of how a sailboat reacts. It is not their job to get close the racers but rather to keep other boats (which should all be under engine) at a distance and I would imagine it is a pretty stressful part of the race management. I say imagine because I have never had to do it, always being inside the 'protective ring' the marshals are designed to provide for the actual race.

 

I am always knackered after driving a photo-RIB and that's just me and 1 - max 2 cameraman - NO PASSENGERS, you cannot afford distractions.

 

For another professional? and for a sponsored boat to be showboating at an event which they are not actually part of is no better than someone gatecrashing a party but that's just an opinion.

 

Still, the over-riding feeling of the event is sadness for the couple involved. Horrible to learn that the woman has lost her leg (but is thankfully stable) She is lucky to be alive and thank goodness properly trained medics were so close to the incident as with such massive trauma seconds literally matter.

 

The couple have huge challenges ahead both the wife with physical recovery and adjustment and both of them the psychological challenges ahead and the changed family dynamics and we should all wish them well.

 

Mr Clean stated that 'water is free' and so it is, for our sport and fans of our sport we just need to hope that that water remains free and this sort of incident is exactly the sort of thing that does introduce controls and reduction of freedom.

 

Not a good day!

 

SS

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Here is a direct link to a post on this accident by Jean-Sébastien Evrard, who was the photographer who took the photo's of Spindrift 2 posted here earlier.

The text is in French, but one can run this through an online translator.http://blogs.afp.com/makingof/?post/spindrift-2-lorient-volvo-ocean-race-accident-fauches-par-la-formule-1-des-mers#.VYHKL0bzu8BSpindrift 2 moments before the accident (AFP / Jean-Sébastien Evrard).volvo-race-accident-5_m.jpg

Didn't the first reports say they sailing with a reefed main?

I believe they only said shortened sail which in this case either means not everything they could possibly fly (the larger furled headsail) or not everything they normally would fly racing in those conditions.

 

 

I wonder what their speed was under this "shortened sail?"

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Hard to say.

IF the 16h15 time is correct their AIS track suggests as high as ~20kts. Vessel trackers are obviously not the best tool.

 

I have something to say about the SAR response but would like to see the official time line before that. (Yes there is one, I mean the revised one after a bit of fact cahecking.)

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Hard to say.

IF the 16h15 time is correct their AIS track suggests as high as ~20kts. Vessel trackers are obviously not the best tool.

 

I have something to say about the SAR response but would like to see the official time line before that. (Yes there is one, I mean the revised one after a bit of fact cahecking.)

i forget at which time during the live start on VOR it was , but it was hauling ass parallel to the course, but it definitely looked somewhere in the range of 20 . somebody else had to notice, and there has got to be a video somewhere.

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Mr Clean stated that 'water is free' and so it is, for our sport and fans of our sport we just need to hope that that water remains free and this sort of incident is exactly the sort of thing that does introduce controls and reduction of freedom.

 

SS this incident is not going to change much from the spectators IMO. The water will still be free for everyone. The only difference might possibly be that the French water police tell sailboats to drop their sails while spectating one of the three events that are really crowded on the water. Given the incredible tenacity and freedom-obsessed nature of the Bretons, it will only last a short time, and the biggest motivator to not be right on the course close to all the cameras will be bad publicity coming from major fuckups like this one.

 

The one thing that can absolutely change the dangerous nature of these starts is very good training for stake/marshal/media boats, which unfortunately means a lot fewer volunteers and a lot more money outlay from organizers. I'm not saying it was the RIB drivers fault that his wife lost her leg - I'm saying a well-trained RIB driver with his head on a swivel and an understanding of the angles and accelerations of modern high-speed multis would have a pretty good chance of getting out of the way of any 140-foot long boat. In my experience one of these starts will usually see a half dozen 'oh, shit' moments from volunteer RIB drivers.

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Here is a direct link to a post on this accident by Jean-Sébastien Evrard, who was the photographer who took the photo's of Spindrift 2 posted here earlier.

The text is in French, but one can run this through an online translator.http://blogs.afp.com/makingof/?post/spindrift-2-lorient-volvo-ocean-race-accident-fauches-par-la-formule-1-des-mers#.VYHKL0bzu8BSpindrift 2 moments before the accident (AFP / Jean-Sébastien Evrard)

.volvo-race-accident-5_m.jpg

I don't see a lot of traffic there....
+1

 

There is a lack of information regarding time till start, exactly where the incident happened so until that is published I am reserving my decision.

 

The video of the start shows a lack of spectator fleet so why shut the whole waterway for a start consisting of 7 boats.

 

Flying a hull - that thing would fly a hull tied up to the dock! That is hardly an indication of over powered, out of control behaviour.

 

Edit - Is that the rib's wake in the bottom right hand corner on a parallel course?

 

You are "reserving your decision", then speculating that is the RIBs wake.

Dipshit.

Now I'll speculate. Is there no traffic in that photo because spindrfit is in the exclusion zone,a and all of the other traffic is following the rules and held back behind the security boats? I won't reserve my decision though. Those idiots on Spindrift made a very bad mistake, which caused a women to have her life altered huge. The recklessness borders criminal behavior, as would driving a car like a douche bag.

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Clean, better trained and more experienced staff, whether volunteer or paid, always helps increase the safety margin. However, I do not know how these boats collided or how much knowledge and experience the rib driver had. Therefore I can't guess to what if any part the rib driver played in the accident.

 

I do know that you could take a F1 driver stick him in a golf cart to patrol a parking lot and you or I would stand a good shot of hitting him with a minivan due to no fault of the F1driver.

 

Especially for a marshal boat marking the edge of the spectator fleet area, their primary job isn't staying way clear of any yahoo that comes out on the water. Their job is to act as slowly moving traffic cones that also yell. No matter how well trained the marshal boat driver, it is possible for a boat like Spindrift to alter course and speed quickly enough that it comes to a collision course with a marshal boat that is doing its job exactly as it should. Even hiring only stunt boat drivers, some of the marshal boats are going to get hit when and if that happens.

 

Perhaps you have a valid point about better screening and training for volunteer rib drivers in general, but making it in context of this incident was not the place and time to do it.

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Clean has stated that the RIB driver was "irresponsible" and that the accident was their fault (along with the "race organizers").

 

Let's watch as he tries to change his tune, and if anyone notices......

As a general rule I think that of you are in a race support capacity if you get hit by a boat racing, the assumption is that you screwed up. If you get hit by a spectator boat, the assumption/onus is on the spectator boat.

 

Race Support boats should not get close enough to the race boats to hit them and spectator boats should not get close enough to official Race Support boats to hit them.

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Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. With my limited amateur knowledge it seems like the captain of Spindrift was in an area the race organizers prefer he would have stayed out of for safety reasons.


The Captain let his ego get in the way and made the decision to ignore them and stand on his freedom to go where ever he wants and do what he wants. That attitude of self entitlement dam near got someone killed and gifted them with a lifelong disability.


Well Spindrift you got the spotlight back on you like you wanted I hope this is the publicity the sponsors were looking for.

The crew smiling and posing for pictures while they try to kill someone.





(edit to fix spelling)

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Clean, better trained and more experienced staff, whether volunteer or paid, always helps increase the safety margin. However, I do not know how these boats collided or how much knowledge and experience the rib driver had. Therefore I can't guess to what if any part the rib driver played in the accident.

 

I do know that you could take a F1 driver stick him in a golf cart to patrol a parking lot and you or I would stand a good shot of hitting him with a minivan due to no fault of the F1driver.

 

Especially for a marshal boat marking the edge of the spectator fleet area, their primary job isn't staying way clear of any yahoo that comes out on the water. Their job is to act as slowly moving traffic cones that also yell. No matter how well trained the marshal boat driver, it is possible for a boat like Spindrift to alter course and speed quickly enough that it comes to a collision course with a marshal boat that is doing its job exactly as it should. Even hiring only stunt boat drivers, some of the marshal boats are going to get hit when and if that happens.

 

Perhaps you have a valid point about better screening and training for volunteer rib drivers in general, but making it in context of this incident was not the place and time to do it.

+10000

 

Careful, Clean, your douchebag is showing again. I mean, What the total FUCK?

 

We all know that not every support boat has a seasoned pro at the wheel, but your bringing that up here again, after figuring out you had to walk back outright blaming this driver? And still not from you one fucking word about how irresponsible Spindrift2 was?

 

I deleted some unsavory comparisons, but seriously, you just don't fucking get it, do you? Your pals on Spindrift2 were fucking WRONG. There is almost zero info that could come out that will absolve them. ZERO.

 

If you want better trained rib drivers, why don't you bring that up privately to your close personal friend Knut?

 

And again, this is really fucking ironic coming out of Mr. Pink Flag. You have been personally involved and responsible for exactly the kind of dumbshit behavior you are wet-henning now.

 

Head on a fucking swivel. Jesus Christ you are douchebag.

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Cement_Shoes, I cannot do anything but agree with you. Spectator boat should be nowhere near the race control boats if they obey the instructions/commands/advice of the marshal boats. As far as getting up close and personal, there is generally a kind of mutual trust (both ways) between race boat helms of this quality and a RIB with an official flag on it. Maybe a dangerous assumption but the skippers are used to VOR using competent drivers for the boats that may get close to the race boats.

 

With regard to comments about 'irresponsible behaviour' I would refer to ColRegs Rule 6 which is the rule concerning 'safe speed' and what should be taken into account

 

Rule 6 (a)(ii) states "the traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels.

It has been stated here in this thread that Spindrift - in amongst a sizable spectator fleet - was doing up to 20kts. Complying with the ColRegs?

 

Rule6(a)(iii) states "the maneuverability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions". Mmm stopping distance of a boat with no brakes (no engine to slam in reverse) and the relative turning circle of a bus

 

Further - Rule 7 (Risk of Collision) (a) if there is any doubt such risk (of collision) shall be deemed to exist.

 

Final point on that Rule 5 (Look out) proper look out.....full appraisal ..... risk of collision. either 5 or 7 (or both) wasn't properly and fully complied with.

 

Any other rules that could be argued depend on the ability of the other vessel to maneuver, were they moving, what other regulations (if any) were in force either national prescriptions or through Notice to Mariners or other similar such local bye laws.

 

Now I am sounding like a lawyer audiopixie - apologies :)

 

SS

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Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should. With my limited amateur knowledge it seems like the captain of Spindrift was in an area the race organizers prefer he would have stayed out of for safety reasons.

 

The Captain let his ego get in the way and made the decision to ignore them and stand on his freedom to go where ever he wants and do what he wants. That attitude of self entitlement dam near got someone killed and gifted them with a lifelong disability.

 

Well Spindrift you got the spotlight back on you like you wanted I hope this is the publicity the sponsors were looking for.

The crew smiling and posing for pictures while they try to kill someone.

 

 

 

 

(edit to fix spelling)

However bad this make look as more news comes out, I don't really think you can accuse the Spindrift crew of trying to kill anybody.

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Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should. With my limited amateur knowledge it seems like the captain of Spindrift was in an area the race organizers prefer he would have stayed out of for safety reasons.

 

The Captain let his ego get in the way and made the decision to ignore them and stand on his freedom to go where ever he wants and do what he wants. That attitude of self entitlement dam near got someone killed and gifted them with a lifelong disability.

 

Well Spindrift you got the spotlight back on you like you wanted I hope this is the publicity the sponsors were looking for.

The crew smiling and posing for pictures while they try to kill someone.

 

 

 

 

(edit to fix spelling)

However bad this make look as more news comes out, I don't really think you can accuse the Spindrift crew of trying to kill anybody.

 

 

 

You’re correct that is badly worded. Thank you for pointing that out
I apologies that is not what I meant to say. The pictures make it look like they are seemingly posing for the camera while they run them over

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INJURY UPDATE: The French site 20 Minutes writes that the woman injured in the horrific accident between a VOR Lorient marshal RIB and the maxi-trimaran Spindrift 2 has indeed had her leg amputated. She lost a tremendous amount of blood, but thanks to emergency services, is apparently stable. The Spindrift team have suspended training and pulled out of the GC32 Cowes Cup ‘out of respect for the victim and those close to her’. It brings the GC32 Cowes fleet back down to 5, marking yet another bit of bad luck for a Class that just can’t seem to escape it – though they are being considered as one option for the 2016 Extreme Sailing Series fleet, so there’s that.

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Cement_Shoes, I cannot do anything but agree with you. Spectator boat should be nowhere near the race control boats if they obey the instructions/commands/advice of the marshal boats. As far as getting up close and personal, there is generally a kind of mutual trust (both ways) between race boat helms of this quality and a RIB with an official flag on it. Maybe a dangerous assumption but the skippers are used to VOR using competent drivers for the boats that may get close to the race boats...

 

SS

Yes. I meant the marshal boats shouldn't be close enough to the racers to get hit. Some power boats may need to be much closer to the racers and those do need to be driven by drivers with much more knowledge than a spectator control marshal boat. They need drivers who understand where they can be within a few meters of the racers without interferring with the race. This requires the rib driver to understand all the moves the racer can and is likely to make.

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Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should. With my limited amateur knowledge it seems like the captain of Spindrift was in an area the race organizers prefer he would have stayed out of for safety reasons.

 

The Captain let his ego get in the way and made the decision to ignore them and stand on his freedom to go where ever he wants and do what he wants. That attitude of self entitlement dam near got someone killed and gifted them with a lifelong disability.

 

Well Spindrift you got the spotlight back on you like you wanted I hope this is the publicity the sponsors were looking for.

The crew smiling and posing for pictures while they try to kill someone.

 

 

 

 

(edit to fix spelling)

However bad this make look as more news comes out, I don't really think you can accuse the Spindrift crew of trying to kill anybody.
How about grandstanding idiots?

Gross Negligence?

Quite possibly, but they most definitely didn't go out there with a view to injuring or killing anyone.

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Hard to say.

IF the 16h15 time is correct their AIS track suggests as high as ~20kts. Vessel trackers are obviously not the best tool.

 

I have something to say about the SAR response but would like to see the official time line before that. (Yes there is one, I mean the revised one after a bit of fact cahecking.)

i forget at which time during the live start on VOR it was , but it was hauling ass parallel to the course, but it definitely looked somewhere in the range of 20 . somebody else had to notice, and there has got to be a video somewhere.

 

 

I've been looking for a video of the incident, but haven't found one yet.

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An avoidable accident where a commercial (not recreational) objective outweighed prudence......picklefork fuckwits.

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Clean has stated that the RIB driver was "irresponsible" and that the accident was their fault (along with the "race organizers").

 

Let's watch as he tries to change his tune, and if anyone notices......

+1. I've had to play chicken with a big fucking powerboat on auto helm to try to steer him around an Olympic qualifier, and it isn't fun. Experienced racers should not have to be hearded off a race course they don't belong on. Spindrift is an embarrassment to our sport.

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I agree with Mr. Clean that this incident is unlikely to change much with spectators unless the message gets out there about what can ACTUALLY happen if they are less than 100% diligent and observant of other vessels around them.

 

Getting that message out there, I feel, it the responsibility of the organisations who want them out there in the first place, namely the likes of VOR, Vendee Globe, Sydney Hobart or indeed any sailing event that is known to attract large spectator fleets. I say they want them out there as that is all part of the sponsors ROI.

 

Will rules change? Well perhaps not but I do know of situations where at local level such accidents HAVE caused a change of direction or regulation.

 

I remember a collision between two PWCs (jetskis) practicing for a race and they came together at around 25 knots. I remember it well as they used my boat as a sort of turning mark and the collision happened 5m away - the attached photos is about 1 sec before the impact and 1 sec before my camera was dumped on the deck and we turned from spectator to rescue coordinator.

 

The collision resulted in one riders leg from the knee down being in 17 - yes seventeen - pieces and had it not been for everyone pulling together from getting him ashore to the doctors who operated on him (several times) he too would have lost his leg. it was over 9 months before he was walking again

 

The Shanghai Water Sports Centre immediately banned ALL PWCs from their facility. A very local reaction perhaps but it was a very local accident, not one at the start of one of the most globally covered sailing events in our sport.

 

SS

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Clean has stated that the RIB driver was "irresponsible" and that the accident was their fault (along with the "race organizers").

 

 

Cite, please, or you are getting the boot as another lying, defamatory piece of cowardly shit.

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Their job is to act as slowly moving traffic cones that also yell.

 

That's not how it is in france at a major event, where spectators have learned to be quite aggressive over the years due to the almost sporting nature of the spectator experience. Guard boats attack, spectator boats parry and thrust. I did some video on it at the Route Du Rhum start a few years ago - frankly it is engrossing to be part of, and very scary at times.

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As a general rule I think that of you are in a race support capacity if you get hit by a boat racing, the assumption is that you screwed up. If you get hit by a spectator boat, the assumption/onus is on the spectator boat.

Race Support boats should not get close enough to the race boats to hit them and spectator boats should not get close enough to official Race Support boats to hit them.

 

 

DING!

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If spectator boats were responsible, you wouldn't need guard boats. That's why your assumptions are irrelevant.

 

 

 

As a general rule I think that of you are in a race support capacity if you get hit by a boat racing, the assumption is that you screwed up. If you get hit by a spectator boat, the assumption/onus is on the spectator boat.

Race Support boats should not get close enough to the race boats to hit them and spectator boats should not get close enough to official Race Support boats to hit them.

 

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We don't know details yet. But I think it is a bit much to expect marshalls on a course for 65 foot monohulls to have intimate knowledge of what every vessel in the spectator fleet is capable of. If the spectator fleet for a 4ksb event was all F1 powerboats, AC72s and foiling kiteboards I wish Clean the best of luck in marshalling them, even with his immense knowledge of everything that floats.

 

Getting defensive doesn't suit you at all.

 

Go to the start of the Rhum and you will find there are french navy and police boats cordoning off a huge area so spectators can't get anywhere near it. You have to have a very special pass to even get through that area, and even then you still can't get anywhere near the start line unless you are one of four official media RIBs. You know what happens to the kiteboarders? A fast attack boat goes and gets them and takes away their kite.

 

Try to get near the start line in the America's Cup and you'll be arrested. I appreciate what VOR is trying to do with a fairly open spectator policy, especially with the relatively light boat traffic in LOR, but being defensive is not going to prevent collisions in the future.

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Their job is to act as slowly moving traffic cones that also yell.

 

That's not how it is in france at a major event, where spectators have learned to be quite aggressive over the years due to the almost sporting nature of the spectator experience. Guard boats attack, spectator boats parry and thrust. I did some video on it at the Route Du Rhum start a few years ago - frankly it is engrossing to be part of, and very scary at times.

If it is a battle between spectator boats and guard boats with attacks and parries as you say, why haven't you been more critical of Spindrift? At some point the spectator fleet, even trying to push the limits, has to respect the authority of the guard boats or the course gets overrun. Assuming the rib didn't run into Spindrift, while Spindrift was holding course and speed and not pushing to get closer, Spindrift bears a lot of responsibility in the collision.

 

Your position on has been consistently biased against the rib driver, and rib drivers in general, while giving Spindrift a free pass.

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Clean has stated that the RIB driver was "irresponsible" and that the accident was their fault (along with the "race organizers").

 

 

Cite, please, or you are getting the boot as another lying, defamatory piece of cowardly shit.

So you've mastered the art of using the delete function after posting something you realize is not very tactful or respectful to the victim, and then you try to bully someone for calling you on it.

 

Bravo.

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Their job is to act as slowly moving traffic cones that also yell.

 

That's not how it is in france at a major event, where spectators have learned to be quite aggressive over the years due to the almost sporting nature of the spectator experience. Guard boats attack, spectator boats parry and thrust. I did some video on it at the Route Du Rhum start a few years ago - frankly it is engrossing to be part of, and very scary at times.

 

Careful Clean, your tone is close to admiration of a spectator fleet flaunting the rules. By extension then you almost start to defend the actions of the Spindrift skipper over that of the RIB driver. A slippery slope. I find nothing to admire or be engrossed in when people feel they can make it a game to try and get away with something that can be disruptive to a sport and in this case, creating life altering damage to a human being. This puts a level of culpability on the location in general and perhaps, were I running VOR I'd consider dropping France from my stopovers till they got better behaved. Free or not, breaking or even testing the rules is arrogant, foolish, and needs to be addressed.

 

I also caught that in your next responses there was still a tone the was placing blame on the RIB driver above all else. If we turned things around for a moment, you have a highly trained, skilled skipper who is very aware of his boat's capabilities and size. He is sailing, not out in the middle of the ocean alone, but in a fairly small body of water crowded with boats. He understands the COLREGS, he should understand, as a racer the importance of marshal boats. So as you comment that the RIB driver should have his head on a swivel, that he should know the capabilities of this high performance ocean racing boat and he should be a master at driving a RIB and that getting in the way of this 140 ft racer was possibly his fault, in part to incompetence (my word, not yours)... I don't hear you say that a skipper, knowing the rules, knowing the performance of his boat, knowing how professional regattas work, knowing the environment around was just as incompetent and worse, for it was his responsibility to act with respect to the race and the spectating fleet.

 

To keep bring up this thought that RIB drivers need better training, more experience is valid and worthy of reasoned discussion. Saying it in regards to even tacitly putting fault on this driver is wrong.

 

I've tried to keep my emotions out of my words, because we don't have all the facts, but I will say in a personal note that to me, everything points to a utter lack of regard or respect by the skipper of Spindrift in the actions leading up to the collision. Excess speed, no lookouts, operating a Maxi boat around small vessels at the start of a race while "flaunting" the rules. Mr. Clean, the skipper of Spindrift was the incompetent one here and as such should not only be banned from racing in a professional capacity ever again, I hope the family sues the pants off him for I doubt anything criminal will result. The sailing community does not need people who act with such disregard for others. If that seems harsh, let's go ask the woman who lost a legand almost her life feels about the skipper's performance and possible punishment. Maybe she'll be more forgiving that me.

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