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hughw

Q23 flies

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Great-thanks Hugh-and congratulations!

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wow - looks good

 

what is the wind strength ?

 

Doesn't look like much wind, although most video footage doesn't seem to reflect actua; windstrength

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8-10 knots, boatspeed about 14 uphill and touching 20 down. But early days and theres a bit more to come yet when things get set up better and we've done some proper testing with different settings.

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Very nice,

 

How much weight is carried in the fin and bulb? Bare minimum I guess?

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got about 60 kgs in the bulb which is enough for 90 degree stability as well as leaving on a mooring - fin is 18. It's just enough too so that if you want to sail/race without the foils then gives the boat a nice feel for when people are having to learn the skill of sailing a scow hull at a heel angle!

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Thanks Hugh, what are the plans?

 

Is this a development for a larger boat? Build more and try and get a new class?

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some exhaustive testing planned for this boat and then was always aimed at being a 3 man sportsboat that anyone can go foiling around the place in.

Production plans yes - we are inviting feedback to see what peopple do and don't like, a lot of sailors will be having a go on it too. We've got some minor mods pencilled in but so far its all pretty much worked as it's supposed to.

 

Also thinking about a smaller - say FDish sized 2man boat along similar lines, and could also do a very nice one at say 30' that really would have some pace:))

 

However, we want to keep the concept as a simple, easy to fly and quick sportsboat - no need for complex systems that need twekaing and adjusting all the time, boat does all the work and you are along for the fun.

 

This too is all glass apart from rig and foils, so costs can be kept under control and we've ideas on how to build foils in production friendly ways to help on costs there.

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Bulb is irrelevant sailing a scow at the heel angle is not that difficult, as is the spinnaker guff at those speeds you can't carry a kite anyway. Take 50kg out of the boat and it foils even better.

 

Bigger is not better with foils so forget the 30 footer.

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Bulb is irrelevant sailing a scow at the heel angle is not that difficult, as is the spinnaker guff at those speeds you can't carry a kite anyway. Take 50kg out of the boat and it foils even better.

 

Bigger is not better with foils so forget the 30 footer.

 

have to remember that this is a bit different conceptually to the E/C scows - it's lighter than a 20' C scow with bigger rig and less beam so is naturally tippier.

 

Interestingly it's not so much the overall displacement that affects take-off speed as the generated power - so 50 kgs yes might fly fractionally earlier, but its getting the power into the boat that counts - so sailing three up and no traps gets to fly almost exactly the same as 2 up and on the wires. It's a drag thing rather than displacement, and this hull form at this displacement has minimal drag change for 50 kgs difference.

 

Anyway, will be sailing with Michi for 5 days next week and get some more information on it all and do some structured testing.

 

Going bigger - plus for this would be to deal with sea conditions but it wouldn't change the speeds significantly so that would be the reason for adding some length.

 

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Extremely cool!

 

Is the scow hull shape a relevant factor for the flying? I could imagine that if sea state comes into play a "normal" hull shape has advantages.

 

Cant wait to see an actually flying dutchman!

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curious to see performance data for teens and twenties breeze with chop and lump...

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Zurich and then possibly Lucerne for more wind and waves depending on what the weather does...

 

Scow form - for this boat it had quite a number of attractions, and one of the main ones was that in the event of a 'departure from controlled flight' as our aviating friends would have it then all that happens is that it bounces and pops straight back up into flying mode with very little loss in speed.

Flat stone on pond stuff, but something with a pointy front end has every chance of tentpegging/ploughing and then loses speeds and is off the foils at best, at worst then only got to look at a few Moth clips!

 

On top of that, we get a nice wide base for the foils to start with which helps get the required righting moment without the complications and expense of racks, and then we can also have a low windage boat when in airborne mode.

 

Uphill with some heel on then it cuts through waves very nicely - sail it upright though and both noisy and slow. There are other things in there too, but those are the primary drivers for this particular boat

 

As ever there are some compromises as with any boat, but from these first weeks of sailing it all seems to work very nicely, we have stable flight without needing wands and other complications, and really any reasonably competent small boat sailor can jump in and 10 minutes later is happily flying.

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This is so good, Hugh. Nice one! Looking forward to news on developments and tweaks.

 

Must be a rather interesting section on the foil - low speed lift vs high speed drag must have provided you with some entertaining calculus!

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Very, very cool boat. Looks like the easiest to sail foiler yet created!

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Members of our Y Flyer fleet (19' Scow) have been kicking around some of the same points Hugh. The light wide and flat set up would just skip along if you lose foil. Well done.

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we have been out Tuesday evening - littel breeze - two (lighter) guys. i guess foiling starts from solid 6-7 knots true. then you may sail with around 13 to 14kts of speed

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Hi Hugh, So elegant in it's simplicity. Wondering: could/ should it be sailed heeled to windward?

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This is so good, Hugh. Nice one! Looking forward to news on developments and tweaks.

 

Must be a rather interesting section on the foil - low speed lift vs high speed drag must have provided you with some entertaining calculus!

 

not wrong! Foil section isn't constant and is also very much a part of why we can achieve stable flight without any additional control systems - did need some head scratching when designing the sections and the overall foil config:)

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Hi Hugh, So elegant in it's simplicity. Wondering: could/ should it be sailed heeled to windward?

 

Short answer is no as it's designed that in displacement mode should be sailed with a particular leeward heel and then everyting starts to work - all related to the 'hulls' disposition relative to everything else and in light airs then you do want the sails to hang in place.

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Well it definitely bellies down in the middle of the gybe but that is off course unavoidable with that design as it foils rather low

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Zurich and then possibly Lucerne for more wind and waves depending on what the weather does...

 

 

Well we are ready here in Brisbane, crew on standby, waiting for it to turn up here for some real testing in Moreton Bay Chop!!!!!

 

Remember, mine is the I orange one!!!!!

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Zurich and then possibly Lucerne for more wind and waves depending on what the weather does...

 

Well we are ready here in Brisbane, crew on standby, waiting for it to turn up here for some real testing in Moreton Bay Chop!!!!!

 

Remember, mine is the I orange one!!!!!

 

 

I'd be happy to come down for that too!

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Are you looking at putting it into production when the bugs have been ironed out? Cost?

 

yes we are - discussing that at the moment and then how/where to build. Most of this is glass and its the foils themselves that take a chunk of the overall costs, and thats what we need to figure...thinking of other ways for production tooling of those than the one-off route.

 

We welcome any feedback on whether this is the right sort of size or any other things that might come to mind!

 

Not figuring on any major changes at the moment - minor details to simplify the overall handling - hull I'm very happy with - rig from C-Tech works well - balance is good - sail sizing and config we can optimise with more knowledge of how it all works now - ditto the foils, but these are all minor tweaks around something we already know works pretty nicely.

 

Off to have 5 days sailing later this week and do some structured testing and make some decisions for the future.

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Are you concerned that the foils are so exposed and liable to damage on a crowed start line? or do you only deploy when in the clear?

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Are you concerned that the foils are so exposed and liable to damage on a crowed start line? or do you only deploy when in the clear?

Not really, you need to be aware obviously, but the working one is to leeward same as the boom, and if really crowded then maybe start with them in and find some air...boat works just fine without them and we spent half of today looking at sailing without the foils - still quick but 14/15 knots max and then with foils up in the 20s.

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Hugh, that bow looks a heck of lot like an old scow moth bow. Which got me thinking, you could probably build a boat along these lines that would fit within the international moth rules, as long as the boards exit the hull below the static water line. Maybe it would be slower than the T foil setup, but it would be much easier to sail for beginners or the not-so-physically-fit. I think such a boat could have a broader appeal than the waszp, which has the same lack of static stability as all narrow hull moths.

 

What do you think?

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Spectacular video:

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Thought that this is better here in Sportsboats, as that is definitely whatt it is - even if it is carrying a bit of lead around on the bottom!

 

https://youtu.be/fcNT4kL5Vu8

 

 

hello Hugh,

thanks for sharing your knowledge here, and if you don't mind I have a couple of questions:

 

we are now all used to the L/V foils as pioneered on the cup cats and the associated leeway/heave coupling, but without divulging too much, how does it work in the Q23 case ?

the lifting part of the foil is close to horizontal (even more with some heel) so very little leeway resistance and it is outboard of the "vertical" part which I guess has no leeway resisting purpose.

The boat flies relatively low so again I am guessing that the leeway resisting action of the keel does not dramatically reduce when the boat is too high up on the foils.

The videos so far show a boat foiling with slight leeward heel so it looks like when the boat is flying too high, the entire foil sort of pops out of the surface at the same time, especially in a little puff where the boat heels over before accelerating.

 

is that how it works ? or does the outboard tip of the foil always keep a slight angle up to have a V foil effect ? maybe the deflection of the foil under load helps ?

 

was the curvature of the foils somehow influenced by practical aspects ? raising/lowering, no interference when both foils are raised etc.

or is it purely hydro oriented ?

 

also, how big is the righting moment step up when you change from displacement to foiling mode ? does the crew have to take it into account ?

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Hugh if the foils were redesigned to be within the hulls shadow or footprint(safety concerns by the traditional authorities etc) would the loss of eff. RM and sail carrying ability affect the performance / foiling , to what degree

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Gybeset - yes, reducing the span to within the hull footprint would lose most of the useful RM, however an alternative would be to add racks to increase the footprint in effect so if that became an issue then thats the easiest route to deal with it. Racks were considered early on, but discarded as being heavy and expensive.

 

Foils curvatures, Vees, sideforce, lift, sections, flexibility and so on are all an interactive set of loops you have to meld together to get a balanced system.

However, key to some of the conundrums is to separate SF from lift and so here we use the keel fin to provide the SF, and by the time it's being lifted in flight then the boatspeed is giving you the required SF from the smaller immersed area.

 

Getting a smooth takeoff is easy and a total non event in steady air conditions, however when gusty as it was these last few days then needs a bit of crew movement at the moment. However we've now seen what we need to with the numbers to design an improved version of whats there at the moment which will generally ease the transition period even in tricky sailing conditions.

 

Practicalities of course are in there too - have to be able to fit the boards in where you need them and can actually use them, so those practicalities then impose their own set of conditions on everything else to achieve the naturally stable flight we see in the videos.

 

Have to say I spent of lot of headscratching time on this boat!

Still, it works pretty much as predicted, some of the less than obvious features have proved themselves, and the great thing is that everyone who sails the boat comes ashore with a huge grin on their faces:)

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Hugh, as before, truly nice. I can see this as a great little Solent boat, perhaps living on a swinging summer mooring in Seaview. I could think of a couple of viable punters there who would pant at the opportunity. Or perhaps Burnham? Or even Cowes.

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Hugh, as before, truly nice. I can see this as a great little Solent boat, perhaps living on a swinging summer mooring in Seaview.

If only to wind up those stick-in-the-muds in Bembridge.

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Hugh, as before, truly nice. I can see this as a great little Solent boat, perhaps living on a swinging summer mooring in Seaview.

If only to wind up those stick-in-the-muds in Bembridge.

 

 

Can any boat drawing more than 11 inches even get in or out of Bembridge any more?

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At HW ± 3 hours, you're actually OK with 1.5m draught. They get enough water in the harbour for a couple of hours of Illusion racing in the winter. Even Seaview sailors have been known to play.

 

272017_630xf.jpg

 

 

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At HW ± 3 hours, you're actually OK with 1.5m draught. They get enough water in the harbour for a couple of hours of Illusion racing in the winter. Even Seaview sailors have been known to play.

 

272017_630xf.jpg

 

 

 

Man, if those are 12 metres, that is one GIGANTIC committee boat! Tom Ehman needs one of those for the SF Super Series....

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11219058_1173427582672465_25185886964159

Quant 23 nominated: The next step - we are all a bit overwhelmed at the moment - not enough hours in a day to work through all the new tasks - but happy anyway.
These are our competitors in the upcoming (beauty-)contest in the division of the "Special Yachts". Keep fingers crossed for the Q23.

http://www.yacht.de/…/die-nominierungen-stehen…/a100303.html

 

..it is a bit like being mentioned in "Forbes Magazine"

11813356_1172684856080071_28437288088344

 

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Hugh,

Looks a bit like a seal waggling a flipper in that shot. Cool boat though and congrats on the nomination. How much of the technology could translate into an offshore boat?

Colin

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Offshore? You'll have to wait and see! Quite a lot though but has to be in the right context and the key thing with this boat was to ensure that attitude control was totally automatic - as soon as you have to start active controlling then you've already lost the game.

So that has worked out really well, I've got some minor revisions to the configuration in mind for the production version which will make it even easier to sail consistently but the rationale behind the whole boat has been vindicated in spades.

 

However I've got a few things on the drawnig board both up and down the scale:)

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Offshore? You'll have to wait and see! Quite a lot though but has to be in the right context and the key thing with this boat was to ensure that attitude control was totally automatic - as soon as you have to start active controlling then you've already lost the game.

So that has worked out really well, I've got some minor revisions to the configuration in mind for the production version which will make it even easier to sail consistently but the rationale behind the whole boat has been vindicated in spades.

 

However I've got a few things on the drawnig board both up and down the scale:)

Whats the bet WOXI is top of the list?

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Excellent work Hugh. Good on ya for the nomination. At 63 there is still a chance I may foil before I stop sailing.

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11219058_1173427582672465_25185886964159

Quant 23 nominated: The next step - we are all a bit overwhelmed at the moment - not enough hours in a day to work through all the new tasks - but happy anyway.

These are our competitors in the upcoming (beauty-)contest in the division of the "Special Yachts". Keep fingers crossed for the Q23.

http://www.yacht.de/…/die-nominierungen-stehen…/a100303.html

 

..it is a bit like being mentioned in "Forbes Magazine"

11813356_1172684856080071_28437288088344

 

 

Love google translate: "Was developed the exciting Foiler DSS Pope Hugh Welbourne from England"

 

Congratulations, Pope Wellbourne!

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Nah, as we know, the name "The Pope" was already taken years and years ago. As was "The Nun" of course. "The ArchBish" perhaps? ;-)

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