Sol's Charleston Race thread resurrection

[Hard On The Wind 266]

 

 

Another discussion? Preaching to the choir is a waste of resources.

Are you talking about a discussion with racist people? I think we know their beliefs. Stay the course we are on as it is most definitely working. Things have changed tremendously in the past 50 years. There will always be tails on a histogram but the standard deviation is getting smaller and smaller.

Got any data to support your claim there is less racism?

We elected a black president even though @12% of the population is black.

 

Only 51% voted for the Kenyan. Based on your analysis other 49% are all potential racists.

[Point Break 1,692]

 

 

 

Another discussion? Preaching to the choir is a waste of resources.

Are you talking about a discussion with racist people? I think we know their beliefs. Stay the course we are on as it is most definitely working. Things have changed tremendously in the past 50 years. There will always be tails on a histogram but the standard deviation is getting smaller and smaller.

Got any data to support your claim there is less racism?

We elected a black president even though @12% of the population is black.

 

Only 51% voted for the Kenyan. Based on your analysis other 49% are all potential racists.

 

You do live in a binary world don't you?

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

 

 

There are many local and a National Task Force that focus on church arson fires. There has been for quite a few years. We participated in one when I worked. I am not aware of any CVS Arson Task Forces.

http://wtop.com/baltimore/2015/06/atf-obtains-arrest-warrant-related-to-cvs-arson-in-baltimore/

 

That isn't a CVS Task Force...its work by arson investigators. I didn't say arson investigations don't occur for fires that occur in CVS drug stores. I'm talking about a task force that specifically looks at church fires with an increased level of expertise and capability. Clinton established it in the late 90's. There was also some federal act that passed about preventing church fires around the same time. Since the incidence of church arson fires has been low, I don't think they are still issuing annual reports. I know the local task forces still focus on every church fire and imagine the Feds do as well.

 

Exactly, we don't have a history of terrorism of CVS pharmacies in the south. As an aside, they tend to be newer buildings than historic black churches, so there will logically be a higher incidence of fires at black churches than CVS stores, but without the historical context, there is likely little need to convene a task force to handle the scourge of CVS arson. In Baltimore, it was investigated and charged. The problem in the South was that things would not get investigated. The recent church fires are indeed being investigated, and not all of them are arson, but some appear to be. That is a problem, inasmuch as the little shit who stirred this pot wanted to start a race war, and specifically chose a historic black church in which to attempt to do so.

 

There is no denying that we have made a lot of progress on race. President Obama is an example, but that coin has two sides. Witness the vehemence of the opposition to anything he tried to do, including but not limited to holding bills to fund the government and pay our debts hostage, threatening default. I'd love to see an example of that happening before. Is that because he is black or because he is a democRAT? Could be either, so there is plausible deniability.

 

There is also no denying that we have far to go before racist idiots are a thing of the past. For example, the KKK will march on Charleston on July 18. http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150629/PC16/150629298/kkk-to-rally-for-confederate-flag-july-18-at-statehouse

 

I hope the stories about church fires are all wrong, but I suspect that not all of them are. I have a 1/3 mile dirt oval track about five minutes from my house, where I venture to on many Saturday nights, because my blood is certainly not immune from the red-of-neck variety and I like to watch the boys trade paint (and I am cheap, and that is just about the best evening of entertainment that ten bucks gets you around these parts). The Charleston shooting happened on a Wednesday. There were several confederate flags hanging out of the backs of pickup trucks that next saturday night, and there were a couple this past Saturday, something I cannot remember seeing before. So Mr. Roof stirred up the pot something good, or perhaps more precisely, he lifted the lid a bit....

[Olsonist 1,122]

I think Tom's post was in the original and now deceased Charleston race thread. Period.

Still the name of the federal court decision would suffice.

[Point Break 1,692]

 

 

 

There are many local and a National Task Force that focus on church arson fires. There has been for quite a few years. We participated in one when I worked. I am not aware of any CVS Arson Task Forces.

 

http://wtop.com/baltimore/2015/06/atf-obtains-arrest-warrant-related-to-cvs-arson-in-baltimore/

That isn't a CVS Task Force...its work by arson investigators. I didn't say arson investigations don't occur for fires that occur in CVS drug stores. I'm talking about a task force that specifically looks at church fires with an increased level of expertise and capability. Clinton established it in the late 90's. There was also some federal act that passed about preventing church fires around the same time. Since the incidence of church arson fires has been low, I don't think they are still issuing annual reports. I know the local task forces still focus on every church fire and imagine the Feds do as well.

Exactly, we don't have a history of terrorism of CVS pharmacies in the south. As an aside, they tend to be newer buildings than historic black churches, so there will logically be a higher incidence of fires at black churches than CVS stores, but without the historical context, there is likely little need to convene a task force to handle the scourge of CVS arson. In Baltimore, it was investigated and charged. The problem in the South was that things would not get investigated. The recent church fires are indeed being investigated, and not all of them are arson, but some appear to be. That is a problem, inasmuch as the little shit who stirred this pot wanted to start a race war, and specifically chose a historic black church in which to attempt to do so.

 

There is no denying that we have made a lot of progress on race. President Obama is an example, but that coin has two sides. Witness the vehemence of the opposition to anything he tried to do, including but not limited to holding bills to fund the government and pay our debts hostage, threatening default. I'd love to see an example of that happening before. Is that because he is black or because he is a democRAT? Could be either, so there is plausible deniability.

 

There is also no denying that we have far to go before racist idiots are a thing of the past. For example, the KKK will march on Charleston on July 18. http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150629/PC16/150629298/kkk-to-rally-for-confederate-flag-july-18-at-statehouse

 

I hope the stories about church fires are all wrong, but I suspect that not all of them are. I have a 1/3 mile dirt oval track about five minutes from my house, where I venture to on many Saturday nights, because my blood is certainly not immune from the red-of-neck variety and I like to watch the boys trade paint (and I am cheap, and that is just about the best evening of entertainment that ten bucks gets you around these parts). The Charleston shooting happened on a Wednesday. There were several confederate flags hanging out of the backs of pickup trucks that next saturday night, and there were a couple this past Saturday, something I cannot remember seeing before. So Mr. Roof stirred up the pot something good, or perhaps more precisely, he lifted the lid a bit....

I don't disagree with most of what you said. My point about the task force was directed at the Twitter or tweet or whatever they call that which implied that a CVS fire gets more effort than a black church fire and that's just not true. Although frankly most of the local focus prior to my recent retirement was on Islamic and anything that looked Islamic to stupid people (Buddhist, Sikh etc) church fires. There just haven't been a lot of arson fires in black churches the last decade or so...at least locally.

 

So far as Obama not getting his agenda accomplished.......I might be a little pollyanish about it but I really believe that issue is his politics and the things he wants to accomplish are contrary to a lot of people's beliefs about the right way forward. After all, 51% is hardly a mandate.

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

 

 

 

 

There are many local and a National Task Force that focus on church arson fires. There has been for quite a few years. We participated in one when I worked. I am not aware of any CVS Arson Task Forces.

http://wtop.com/baltimore/2015/06/atf-obtains-arrest-warrant-related-to-cvs-arson-in-baltimore/

That isn't a CVS Task Force...its work by arson investigators. I didn't say arson investigations don't occur for fires that occur in CVS drug stores. I'm talking about a task force that specifically looks at church fires with an increased level of expertise and capability. Clinton established it in the late 90's. There was also some federal act that passed about preventing church fires around the same time. Since the incidence of church arson fires has been low, I don't think they are still issuing annual reports. I know the local task forces still focus on every church fire and imagine the Feds do as well.

Exactly, we don't have a history of terrorism of CVS pharmacies in the south. As an aside, they tend to be newer buildings than historic black churches, so there will logically be a higher incidence of fires at black churches than CVS stores, but without the historical context, there is likely little need to convene a task force to handle the scourge of CVS arson. In Baltimore, it was investigated and charged. The problem in the South was that things would not get investigated. The recent church fires are indeed being investigated, and not all of them are arson, but some appear to be. That is a problem, inasmuch as the little shit who stirred this pot wanted to start a race war, and specifically chose a historic black church in which to attempt to do so.

 

There is no denying that we have made a lot of progress on race. President Obama is an example, but that coin has two sides. Witness the vehemence of the opposition to anything he tried to do, including but not limited to holding bills to fund the government and pay our debts hostage, threatening default. I'd love to see an example of that happening before. Is that because he is black or because he is a democRAT? Could be either, so there is plausible deniability.

 

There is also no denying that we have far to go before racist idiots are a thing of the past. For example, the KKK will march on Charleston on July 18. http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150629/PC16/150629298/kkk-to-rally-for-confederate-flag-july-18-at-statehouse

 

I hope the stories about church fires are all wrong, but I suspect that not all of them are. I have a 1/3 mile dirt oval track about five minutes from my house, where I venture to on many Saturday nights, because my blood is certainly not immune from the red-of-neck variety and I like to watch the boys trade paint (and I am cheap, and that is just about the best evening of entertainment that ten bucks gets you around these parts). The Charleston shooting happened on a Wednesday. There were several confederate flags hanging out of the backs of pickup trucks that next saturday night, and there were a couple this past Saturday, something I cannot remember seeing before. So Mr. Roof stirred up the pot something good, or perhaps more precisely, he lifted the lid a bit....

I don't disagree with most of what you said. My point about the task force was directed at the Twitter or tweet or whatever they call that which implied that a CVS fire gets more effort than a black church fire and that's just not true. Although frankly most of the local focus prior to my recent retirement was on Islamic and anything that looked Islamic to stupid people (Buddhist, Sikh etc) church fires. There just haven't been a lot of arson fires in black churches the last decade or so...at least locally.

 

So far as Obama not getting his agenda accomplished.......I might be a little pollyanish about it but I really believe that issue is his politics and the things he wants to accomplish are contrary to a lot of people's beliefs about the right way forward. After all, 51% is hardly a mandate.

 

We saw that tweet completely differently. I saw it as a commentary about what our corporate news cycle covers, not what we address through the criminal justice system.

 

I get standing up against an agenda (though the doom and gloom predictions about the health insurance industry relief act were amusing, given that the GOP filed much the same bill as an alternative to Hillarycare, showing how long the insurance industry was looking for a ball carrier for that bit of pigskin...) but I cannot recall the debt ceiling ever being held hostage to politics and bargaining, with default as the threat. I really think that the vehemence is more a sign of the parties and their partisans seeing the other side as their enemy, instead of their countrymen, more than it is a sign of racism. That said, I am pretty comfortable saying that Obama's race does not help him, as least in these parts.

 

We're in a bad spot, and as long as our system is set up so that some folks profit from division, I think we will see more of it.

[Chuck D. 23]

After all, 51% is hardly a mandate.

 

 

Doing it twice is somewhat exceptional, though, and it should also be noted that in both of his elections, he garnered a higher percentage of the vote than W did in either of his elections.

 

Cite

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

I think Tom's post was in the original and now deceased Charleston race thread. Period.

Still the name of the federal court decision would suffice.

 

Are you talking about the one that looked

 

like this:

 

As he writes in his order granting the plaintiffs’ motion for summary judgment, “But on the other side of this case is another feature of government: Certain fundamental rights are protected by the Constitution, put outside government’s reach, including the right to keep and bear arms for self-defense under the Second Amendment. This right must also include the right to acquire a firearm.”

 

 

Yes, it was in the original thread. Since you can't figure out that the period was at the end in the original, it's not surprising that you can't glean information about the case from the links I provided.

[jocal505 126]

 

 

I guess that should come with a cite.

 

 

Guns aren't really my thing so I haven't really tracked this. I'd rather scratch the Second Amendment and allow guns to be registered and regulated in the same way we register and regulate cars. I'm not opposed to guns in general; I just don't see their ownership as a fundamental freedom.

 

...

 

I appreciate the honesty of this statement much more than his lie that we don't have a second amendment right to purchase guns. Or maybe he wasn't lying and was just spouting off from a position of ignorance. I guess we'll never know as he lost interest in his topic.

 

 

The second amendment is very "scratchable." It says so in the Heller decision, which clearly defines that persons, places, and things can be regulated.

A very strong case can be made that most lower courts are allowing a variety of sensible regulation.

If in doubt, let's intelligently debate the lower court decisions 2013 and 2014.

 

 

The Heller decision said gun bans closed registries were unconstitutional. Yes.

 

You may consider that "scratchable" STRAW MAN again. Go get a decent, honest argument. but I don't.

 

I don't want to "scratch" our second amendment right to purchase guns (the one Olsonist thinks does not exist) because I think it might have some bearing on the tools that Sol was talking about. If we ever find out what those are.

 

 

Heller was wide open to existing restrictions...and left the door open to CCP restrictions, and future restrictions.

The second amendment is not an absolutish structure.

 

 

2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.

[Point Break 1,692]

 

After all, 51% is hardly a mandate.

 

 

Doing it twice is somewhat exceptional, though, and it should also be noted that in both of his elections, he garnered a higher percentage of the vote than W did in either of his elections.

 

Cite

 

Heck, I wouldn't characterize W's election as a mandate either. The only elections that even approach a mandate in modern times would be Nixon, Reagan, and LBJ. I didn't cite that as any indication of his anticipated value to the nation relative to W..............I cite that as supportive of my assertion that his legislative troubles are more to do with a divided electorate philosophically than his race. His first term was close....but I could have beat McCain and Palin........the second was a squeaker by popular vote. Frankly his style of preaching collaboration but only if it means you eventually agree with him doesn't help either. If you don't have a mandate and an elected congressional makeup that matches your mandate OR you really can collaborate and compromise.........you're not gonna get much done.

 

And twice isn't all that remarkable in comparison. W, Reagan and Clinton all did too.

[Hard On The Wind 266]

 

 

 

 

Another discussion? Preaching to the choir is a waste of resources.

Are you talking about a discussion with racist people? I think we know their beliefs. Stay the course we are on as it is most definitely working. Things have changed tremendously in the past 50 years. There will always be tails on a histogram but the standard deviation is getting smaller and smaller.

Got any data to support your claim there is less racism?

We elected a black president even though @12% of the population is black.

 

Only 51% voted for the Kenyan. Based on your analysis other 49% are all potential racists.

 

You do live in a binary world don't you?

 

If that were true I wouldn't have put the word "potential" in there.

[plchacker 3]

 

 

How do you suggest we deal with it? Honestly, I thought we had made remarkable progress since Birmingham. What exactly must be done? I live in a county that is 49.5 - 49.5 White, Black and 1% other. Half of my students are Black. My best student in ten years is Black. Black graduates are guaranteed a job if it comes down to two candidates where one is Black and the other is White. How far must the scales be tipped?

 

I don't think any scales need to be tipped. I think we need to acknowledge that racism is alive and well, and not pretend that it isn't. We need to stop playing the Limbaugh game, where recognizing racism is racism, entertaining though it may be. We need to find out where kids are being taught such hatred that led Dylann Roof to s-h-o-o-t nine people despite thinking they were nice, because he thought he had to, because they were black, and he was inspired by the Trayvon Martin killing. The flag is a symbol; it's removal from government buildings is purely symbolic. We need to address disparate treatment in the justice system, and by police. There are a host of issues to confront, all of them difficult. The flag issue, while purely symbolic, was once thought too tough to handle, and look how fast we are moving forward on that. It can be done. Our leaders will work on this stuff if we are willing to drag them, kicking and screaming, to do it. It shouldn't have to take mass murder to make it happen.

 

Sorry it took so long to get back. I've been really busy. I read your post three times to make sure I understood your solution. Honestly, the whole flag thing is a non-starter. I think we both agree on that. Roof, while an individual, does represent a small group of White people. However, you (correct me if I'm wrong) seem to miss the other side of that particular coin completely. Black racism exists, and in a big way. It is more prevalent in day to day life. An individual like Roof can get all the needed fuel on Youtube. His parents, teachers and others may not have had a huge influence. Youtube/Social media can be very dangerous. Don't get me wrong, I use it constantly in my work; there is great potential with that media. Now, if we assume that he was taught hate, from his parents (possibly) or some other influence how can we change that? Honestly, I think exposure to other people is the only solution there. I can vouch that where I live, there is exponentially less hate passed from one generation to the next.

 

You are much closer to the legal system than I. Still, if you break the law, you should do the time. Trying to pin Black:White ratios on convictions is worse than affirmative action. That is state sanctioned racism. I respect your view that we should take the insurance companies/government out of healthcare. I think its time to pull the plug on programs like affirmative action too. We certainly do not need to go further down that particular road. Doing so will backfire. The simple fact is that there is a huge difference between Blacks and Whites where crime is concerned. Blacks, as a whole, commit more crimes. This is due in large part to poverty. Poverty has many factors. Of those, the popular culture i.e. "thug life" has no small part. Another factor is education. That one is huge and it starts with substandard universities and trickles down to K12 English teachers who cannot complete a sentence in the English language (worse yet the don't speak any other language.) Another major issue is the lack of jobs. To attract jobs, you have to provide a qualified work force. To provide a qualified workforce you must invest in quality educational institutions. Booker T Washington nailed this one. We would do well to follow his example. However his example would not work well for anyone who is not willing to work.

 

You see, Sol, I have been living this my entire life. I have seen great success in race relations. I'll admit that it took some government intervention to get things on the proper course. However, change must come from within. The absolute best we can do is for leaders to set above board examples. I hope you agree that we have too many bad leaders who are doing just the opposite. Our president is leaning in the wrong direction by provoking rather than setting a positive example. I truly wish Dr. King were still alive. I suspect he would be embarrassed by things that are being done in his name. He wanted equal opportunity. He did not expect a free ride. He (his people) did not want a hand out, he desperately needed a hand up. To that end, Dr. King would probably give our President a proper "whippin'."

 

I have not been to NOLA in a few years. I would like to see if the 9th Ward has changed after Katrina. With a clean slate I would hope the area improved.

[plchacker 3]

 

I see Charleston in a very good light over this. A racist from out of town came to Charleston because of the town's race relations, and tried to disrupt them by entering a historic black church and s-h-o-o-t-i-n-g nine people he found to be nice in person, but still had to s-h-o-o-t, because they were black. He sought to sow discord, but what he accomplished instead was letting the world see the town and state coming together not in battle, but in accord, and working to remove elements of a troubled past from the state house, where that flag does not belong. I am pretty damned impressed by Charleston's response to this.

 

If the kid wanted riots, he should have done it in NYC.

 

 

 

Sounds like a nice guy. Too bad the thug got him.

 

Agreed

[Rockdog 14]

 

 

really? That's all u got?

 

How about life expectancies

Wages

Incarceration rates

Infant mortality

Etc, etc?

Those are indicators of the existence of racism? Do tell!

Synchronicity of course.

[Rockdog 14]

 

 

 

 

Another discussion? Preaching to the choir is a waste of resources.

Are you talking about a discussion with racist people? I think we know their beliefs. Stay the course we are on as it is most definitely working. Things have changed tremendously in the past 50 years. There will always be tails on a histogram but the standard deviation is getting smaller and smaller.

Got any data to support your claim there is less racism?

We elected a black president even though @12% of the population is black.

Only 51% voted for the Kenyan. Based on your analysis other 49% are all potential racists.

Before 2008 how many people voted for a black president?

[Rockdog 14]

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are many local and a National Task Force that focus on church arson fires. There has been for quite a few years. We participated in one when I worked. I am not aware of any CVS Arson Task Forces.

http://wtop.com/baltimore/2015/06/atf-obtains-arrest-warrant-related-to-cvs-arson-in-baltimore/

That isn't a CVS Task Force...its work by arson investigators. I didn't say arson investigations don't occur for fires that occur in CVS drug stores. I'm talking about a task force that specifically looks at church fires with an increased level of expertise and capability. Clinton established it in the late 90's. There was also some federal act that passed about preventing church fires around the same time. Since the incidence of church arson fires has been low, I don't think they are still issuing annual reports. I know the local task forces still focus on every church fire and imagine the Feds do as well.

Exactly, we don't have a history of terrorism of CVS pharmacies in the south. As an aside, they tend to be newer buildings than historic black churches, so there will logically be a higher incidence of fires at black churches than CVS stores, but without the historical context, there is likely little need to convene a task force to handle the scourge of CVS arson. In Baltimore, it was investigated and charged. The problem in the South was that things would not get investigated. The recent church fires are indeed being investigated, and not all of them are arson, but some appear to be. That is a problem, inasmuch as the little shit who stirred this pot wanted to start a race war, and specifically chose a historic black church in which to attempt to do so.

 

There is no denying that we have made a lot of progress on race. President Obama is an example, but that coin has two sides. Witness the vehemence of the opposition to anything he tried to do, including but not limited to holding bills to fund the government and pay our debts hostage, threatening default. I'd love to see an example of that happening before. Is that because he is black or because he is a democRAT? Could be either, so there is plausible deniability.

 

There is also no denying that we have far to go before racist idiots are a thing of the past. For example, the KKK will march on Charleston on July 18. http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150629/PC16/150629298/kkk-to-rally-for-confederate-flag-july-18-at-statehouse

 

I hope the stories about church fires are all wrong, but I suspect that not all of them are. I have a 1/3 mile dirt oval track about five minutes from my house, where I venture to on many Saturday nights, because my blood is certainly not immune from the red-of-neck variety and I like to watch the boys trade paint (and I am cheap, and that is just about the best evening of entertainment that ten bucks gets you around these parts). The Charleston shooting happened on a Wednesday. There were several confederate flags hanging out of the backs of pickup trucks that next saturday night, and there were a couple this past Saturday, something I cannot remember seeing before. So Mr. Roof stirred up the pot something good, or perhaps more precisely, he lifted the lid a bit....

Louis Farrakhan. Haven't heard you call that ass wipe out yet? Why not?

[A guy in the Chesapeake 1,281]

 

 

 

How do you suggest we deal with it? Honestly, I thought we had made remarkable progress since Birmingham. What exactly must be done? I live in a county that is 49.5 - 49.5 White, Black and 1% other. Half of my students are Black. My best student in ten years is Black. Black graduates are guaranteed a job if it comes down to two candidates where one is Black and the other is White. How far must the scales be tipped?

 

I don't think any scales need to be tipped. I think we need to acknowledge that racism is alive and well, and not pretend that it isn't. We need to stop playing the Limbaugh game, where recognizing racism is racism, entertaining though it may be. We need to find out where kids are being taught such hatred that led Dylann Roof to s-h-o-o-t nine people despite thinking they were nice, because he thought he had to, because they were black, and he was inspired by the Trayvon Martin killing. The flag is a symbol; it's removal from government buildings is purely symbolic. We need to address disparate treatment in the justice system, and by police. There are a host of issues to confront, all of them difficult. The flag issue, while purely symbolic, was once thought too tough to handle, and look how fast we are moving forward on that. It can be done. Our leaders will work on this stuff if we are willing to drag them, kicking and screaming, to do it. It shouldn't have to take mass murder to make it happen.

 

Sorry it took so long to get back. I've been really busy. I read your post three times to make sure I understood your solution. Honestly, the whole flag thing is a non-starter. I think we both agree on that. Roof, while an individual, does represent a small group of White people. However, you (correct me if I'm wrong) seem to miss the other side of that particular coin completely. Black racism exists, and in a big way. It is more prevalent in day to day life. An individual like Roof can get all the needed fuel on Youtube. His parents, teachers and others may not have had a huge influence. Youtube/Social media can be very dangerous. Don't get me wrong, I use it constantly in my work; there is great potential with that media. Now, if we assume that he was taught hate, from his parents (possibly) or some other influence how can we change that? Honestly, I think exposure to other people is the only solution there. I can vouch that where I live, there is exponentially less hate passed from one generation to the next.

 

You are much closer to the legal system than I. Still, if you break the law, you should do the time. Trying to pin Black:White ratios on convictions is worse than affirmative action. That is state sanctioned racism. I respect your view that we should take the insurance companies/government out of healthcare. I think its time to pull the plug on programs like affirmative action too. We certainly do not need to go further down that particular road. Doing so will backfire. The simple fact is that there is a huge difference between Blacks and Whites where crime is concerned. Blacks, as a whole, commit more crimes. This is due in large part to poverty. Poverty has many factors. Of those, the popular culture i.e. "thug life" has no small part. Another factor is education. That one is huge and it starts with substandard universities and trickles down to K12 English teachers who cannot complete a sentence in the English language (worse yet the don't speak any other language.) Another major issue is the lack of jobs. To attract jobs, you have to provide a qualified work force. To provide a qualified workforce you must invest in quality educational institutions. Booker T Washington nailed this one. We would do well to follow his example. However his example would not work well for anyone who is not willing to work.

 

You see, Sol, I have been living this my entire life. I have seen great success in race relations. I'll admit that it took some government intervention to get things on the proper course. However, change must come from within. The absolute best we can do is for leaders to set above board examples. I hope you agree that we have too many bad leaders who are doing just the opposite. Our president is leaning in the wrong direction by provoking rather than setting a positive example. I truly wish Dr. King were still alive. I suspect he would be embarrassed by things that are being done in his name. He wanted equal opportunity. He did not expect a free ride. He (his people) did not want a hand out, he desperately needed a hand up. To that end, Dr. King would probably give our President a proper "whippin'."

 

I have not been to NOLA in a few years. I would like to see if the 9th Ward has changed after Katrina. With a clean slate I would hope the area improved.

 

 

Thanks for your thoughts, PLC. I wonder whether the pontificators of what "should be" would have ever had their perspectives tempered by pragmatism of real experience? I'd humbly suggest that BD, you, PB, etc; anyone who's providing public services to disadvantaged communities would have a perspective that's closer to reality than anyone who's perspective is formed by media consumption.

[Point Break 1,692]

 

 

 

How do you suggest we deal with it? Honestly, I thought we had made remarkable progress since Birmingham. What exactly must be done? I live in a county that is 49.5 - 49.5 White, Black and 1% other. Half of my students are Black. My best student in ten years is Black. Black graduates are guaranteed a job if it comes down to two candidates where one is Black and the other is White. How far must the scales be tipped?

 

I don't think any scales need to be tipped. I think we need to acknowledge that racism is alive and well, and not pretend that it isn't. We need to stop playing the Limbaugh game, where recognizing racism is racism, entertaining though it may be. We need to find out where kids are being taught such hatred that led Dylann Roof to s-h-o-o-t nine people despite thinking they were nice, because he thought he had to, because they were black, and he was inspired by the Trayvon Martin killing. The flag is a symbol; it's removal from government buildings is purely symbolic. We need to address disparate treatment in the justice system, and by police. There are a host of issues to confront, all of them difficult. The flag issue, while purely symbolic, was once thought too tough to handle, and look how fast we are moving forward on that. It can be done. Our leaders will work on this stuff if we are willing to drag them, kicking and screaming, to do it. It shouldn't have to take mass murder to make it happen.

Sorry it took so long to get back. I've been really busy. I read your post three times to make sure I understood your solution. Honestly, the whole flag thing is a non-starter. I think we both agree on that. Roof, while an individual, does represent a small group of White people. However, you (correct me if I'm wrong) seem to miss the other side of that particular coin completely. Black racism exists, and in a big way. It is more prevalent in day to day life. An individual like Roof can get all the needed fuel on Youtube. His parents, teachers and others may not have had a huge influence. Youtube/Social media can be very dangerous. Don't get me wrong, I use it constantly in my work; there is great potential with that media. Now, if we assume that he was taught hate, from his parents (possibly) or some other influence how can we change that? Honestly, I think exposure to other people is the only solution there. I can vouch that where I live, there is exponentially less hate passed from one generation to the next.

 

You are much closer to the legal system than I. Still, if you break the law, you should do the time. Trying to pin Black:White ratios on convictions is worse than affirmative action. That is state sanctioned racism. I respect your view that we should take the insurance companies/government out of healthcare. I think its time to pull the plug on programs like affirmative action too. We certainly do not need to go further down that particular road. Doing so will backfire. The simple fact is that there is a huge difference between Blacks and Whites where crime is concerned. Blacks, as a whole, commit more crimes. This is due in large part to poverty. Poverty has many factors. Of those, the popular culture i.e. "thug life" has no small part. Another factor is education. That one is huge and it starts with substandard universities and trickles down to K12 English teachers who cannot complete a sentence in the English language (worse yet the don't speak any other language.) Another major issue is the lack of jobs. To attract jobs, you have to provide a qualified work force. To provide a qualified workforce you must invest in quality educational institutions. Booker T Washington nailed this one. We would do well to follow his example. However his example would not work well for anyone who is not willing to work.

 

You see, Sol, I have been living this my entire life. I have seen great success in race relations. I'll admit that it took some government intervention to get things on the proper course. However, change must come from within. The absolute best we can do is for leaders to set above board examples. I hope you agree that we have too many bad leaders who are doing just the opposite. Our president is leaning in the wrong direction by provoking rather than setting a positive example. I truly wish Dr. King were still alive. I suspect he would be embarrassed by things that are being done in his name. He wanted equal opportunity. He did not expect a free ride. He (his people) did not want a hand out, he desperately needed a hand up. To that end, Dr. King would probably give our President a proper "whippin'."

 

I have not been to NOLA in a few years. I would like to see if the 9th Ward has changed after Katrina. With a clean slate I would hope the area improved.

We are all products of our experiences. So perhaps my view is tainted by my own experiences. I don't see racism in my everyday life very much anymore. I acknowledge there are still racists......and injustices....but I don't see it here in So Cal very often. My brother in law is married to a black woman. They will tell you that years ago, they experienced frowny poorly disguised disapproval on occasion.....but not so much anymore. One of my very best friends is a black guy married to a white woman. He is a Doc so they probably socialize with a generally more "enlightened" crowd, but they really experience near zero adverse moments (we've chatted about it). In my Fire Department we had white, black, asian, mexicans......there simply isn't any racial tension or problems. At work, even the cops I worked with really never had any overt racial moments that I can ever remember. So............I see a ton of improvement.....daily. While it isn't universal, and in some places still a problem, it is vastly better....in my experience. I acknowledge that if you live in a place where your everyday is different than that, you'd have a different view. From my chair.....I think the way forward should be to absolutely expect equal treatment, and ferret out and punish or vilify any behavior to the contrary. I view the cultural issues we still experience as economic issues of equal access yo opportunity and education.....not racial. We should view it through that lens and it'll be more productive.

 

Race won't matter until it doesn't matter. We should conduct ourselves consistent with that principle and not tolerate real racism when we find it.

 

Some flag........pifffftttt.

[Rockdog 14]

 

 

 

 

How do you suggest we deal with it? Honestly, I thought we had made remarkable progress since Birmingham. What exactly must be done? I live in a county that is 49.5 - 49.5 White, Black and 1% other. Half of my students are Black. My best student in ten years is Black. Black graduates are guaranteed a job if it comes down to two candidates where one is Black and the other is White. How far must the scales be tipped?

 

I don't think any scales need to be tipped. I think we need to acknowledge that racism is alive and well, and not pretend that it isn't. We need to stop playing the Limbaugh game, where recognizing racism is racism, entertaining though it may be. We need to find out where kids are being taught such hatred that led Dylann Roof to s-h-o-o-t nine people despite thinking they were nice, because he thought he had to, because they were black, and he was inspired by the Trayvon Martin killing. The flag is a symbol; it's removal from government buildings is purely symbolic. We need to address disparate treatment in the justice system, and by police. There are a host of issues to confront, all of them difficult. The flag issue, while purely symbolic, was once thought too tough to handle, and look how fast we are moving forward on that. It can be done. Our leaders will work on this stuff if we are willing to drag them, kicking and screaming, to do it. It shouldn't have to take mass murder to make it happen.

Sorry it took so long to get back. I've been really busy. I read your post three times to make sure I understood your solution. Honestly, the whole flag thing is a non-starter. I think we both agree on that. Roof, while an individual, does represent a small group of White people. However, you (correct me if I'm wrong) seem to miss the other side of that particular coin completely. Black racism exists, and in a big way. It is more prevalent in day to day life. An individual like Roof can get all the needed fuel on Youtube. His parents, teachers and others may not have had a huge influence. Youtube/Social media can be very dangerous. Don't get me wrong, I use it constantly in my work; there is great potential with that media. Now, if we assume that he was taught hate, from his parents (possibly) or some other influence how can we change that? Honestly, I think exposure to other people is the only solution there. I can vouch that where I live, there is exponentially less hate passed from one generation to the next.

 

You are much closer to the legal system than I. Still, if you break the law, you should do the time. Trying to pin Black:White ratios on convictions is worse than affirmative action. That is state sanctioned racism. I respect your view that we should take the insurance companies/government out of healthcare. I think its time to pull the plug on programs like affirmative action too. We certainly do not need to go further down that particular road. Doing so will backfire. The simple fact is that there is a huge difference between Blacks and Whites where crime is concerned. Blacks, as a whole, commit more crimes. This is due in large part to poverty. Poverty has many factors. Of those, the popular culture i.e. "thug life" has no small part. Another factor is education. That one is huge and it starts with substandard universities and trickles down to K12 English teachers who cannot complete a sentence in the English language (worse yet the don't speak any other language.) Another major issue is the lack of jobs. To attract jobs, you have to provide a qualified work force. To provide a qualified workforce you must invest in quality educational institutions. Booker T Washington nailed this one. We would do well to follow his example. However his example would not work well for anyone who is not willing to work.

 

You see, Sol, I have been living this my entire life. I have seen great success in race relations. I'll admit that it took some government intervention to get things on the proper course. However, change must come from within. The absolute best we can do is for leaders to set above board examples. I hope you agree that we have too many bad leaders who are doing just the opposite. Our president is leaning in the wrong direction by provoking rather than setting a positive example. I truly wish Dr. King were still alive. I suspect he would be embarrassed by things that are being done in his name. He wanted equal opportunity. He did not expect a free ride. He (his people) did not want a hand out, he desperately needed a hand up. To that end, Dr. King would probably give our President a proper "whippin'."

 

I have not been to NOLA in a few years. I would like to see if the 9th Ward has changed after Katrina. With a clean slate I would hope the area improved.

We are all products of our experiences. So perhaps my view is tainted by my own experiences. I don't see racism in my everyday life very much anymore. I acknowledge there are still racists......and injustices....but I don't see it here in So Cal very often. My brother in law is married to a black woman. They will tell you that years ago, they experienced frowny poorly disguised disapproval on occasion.....but not so much anymore. One of my very best friends is a black guy married to a white woman. He is a Doc so they probably socialize with a generally more "enlightened" crowd, but they really experience near zero adverse moments (we've chatted about it). In my Fire Department we had white, black, asian, mexicans......there simply isn't any racial tension or problems. At work, even the cops I worked with really never had any overt racial moments that I can ever remember. So............I see a ton of improvement.....daily. While it isn't universal, and in some places still a problem, it is vastly better....in my experience. I acknowledge that if you live in a place where your everyday is different than that, you'd have a different view. From my chair.....I think the way forward should be to absolutely expect equal treatment, and ferret out and punish or vilify any behavior to the contrary. I view the cultural issues we still experience as economic issues of equal access yo opportunity and education.....not racial. We should view it through that lens and it'll be more productive.

 

Race won't matter until it doesn't matter. We should conduct ourselves consistent with that principle and not tolerate real racism when we find it.

 

Some flag........pifffftttt.

Very good post. My personal experience is similar ( only interracial marriage in my family is white/native american).

[B.J. Porter 1,502]

 

 

 

I don't disagree with most of what you said. My point about the task force was directed at the Twitter or tweet or whatever they call that which implied that a CVS fire gets more effort than a black church fire and that's just not true. Although frankly most of the local focus prior to my recent retirement was on Islamic and anything that looked Islamic to stupid people (Buddhist, Sikh etc) church fires. There just haven't been a lot of arson fires in black churches the last decade or so...at least locally.

 

So far as Obama not getting his agenda accomplished.......I might be a little pollyanish about it but I really believe that issue is his politics and the things he wants to accomplish are contrary to a lot of people's beliefs about the right way forward. After all, 51% is hardly a mandate.

 

 

We saw that tweet completely differently. I saw it as a commentary about what our corporate news cycle covers, not what we address through the criminal justice system.

 

 

 

The problem SOL, is that your twat you posted was simply wrong. It did get coverage. I live 7000 miles away and I've been seeing news of the black church burnings over here. I was in the barber chair just a couple of days ago in my version of "Little Pakistan" and saw it on the BBC. I've seen it reported on CNN International as well.

 

I think there is a bit of a difference between having pretty much every news orgs in the world descend on a major US city in the middle of an on-going riot and being a block away from a CVS that got torched to covering a small church that burned at 4am in rural Alabama. Which one of those events is going to get more immediate attention in the news cycle?

 

 

Jeff - I am coming to understand that just because you and I see something OUTSIDE the US does not mean it gets the same coverage by the media in the U.S.

 

So I wouldn't assume that just because you see it on the far side of the globe that anyone that is say, tuned only to Fox, would see it at all.

[B.J. Porter 1,502]

And I'm think that, on the whole, there is indeed less racism in the US. Grab a person at random - especially a younger one - and you are less likely to hear them make a racist utterance than even in our generation.

 

But the racists that are around are more virulent, they are probably feeling outnumbered and cornered, and they have a much bigger platform to blast their views out to sympathetic audiences. That is how Roof got a lot of his worst indoctrination from what I've read, though his parents don't sound like prizes either he spent a lot of time on line listening to other racists ranting.

 

I'm sure he's a hero over on Stormfront.

[Rockdog 14]

There werecrscial utterences when we were young bj. I have never heard a racial utterence from any of my kids. Not one. My son ays not to say 'Indian'...you must say Native American.

[B.J. Porter 1,502]

There werecrscial utterences when we were young bj. I have never heard a racial utterence from any of my kids. Not one. My son ays not to say 'Indian'...you must say Native American.

 

I've never hear a racist utterance from my kids, but then they've never heard one from me. And I never heard one from my parents, in point my father took me aside when I was quite young and told me about a few words he never wanted to hear me utter.

 

However I hear many racist statements from those around me growing up in Cincinnati, that part of the country can be pretty grim about these things. The clan was reportedly more active in Ohio than in the South.

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

AH, MEMORY LANE ON THE GUN FORUMS

Post #211 , from Heller vs. D.C. Being Heard Today thread

It was a day for Tom to celebrate, and a day when Shirley I felt stunned and devastated.

A single backlog fill-in judge named Scullin had ruled that outdoor guns were immediately allowed in Washington D.C.

The NRA won a big one Friday when District Court Judge Frederick Scullin, Jr., issued a long-awaited decision in Palmer, et. al., vs. District of Columbia, a case that was initially brought in 2005 against DC's total ban on carrying concealed guns outside the home. The judge not only ordered the District to stop enforcing its concealed-carry ban, but also ordered the District to stop enforcing the same ban against non-residents who want to travel through DC while carrying a gun.

This was quite significant. Even today, it is the only jurisdiction in the USA where out of state citizens can drive around with loaded guns in vehicles.

 

 

So much BS, so little time. My Florida CWP is good in quite a few states. It's called reciprocity.

 

Shit, now that jocal knows about it we'll get no end of new copy/pastes about mythical places like Synthetic Connecticut and how reciprocity should work in the imaginations of gungrabby researchers.

 

 

 

[jocal505 126]

Tom is changing the subject and content of this Judge Scullin post. It pointed to a forum member who was bolstered by the ruling, and, that very day, encouraging armed aggression against D.C. street thugs...with a goal of thirty fatalities. It goes to the innocence of CC, and to the purported non-violence of the SA Gun Club:

Boothy's Bloodlust does D.C.http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=69325&p=4625625

 

Let's examine the "b.s." There are huge differences in play with this Scullin ruling, and FL's situation. The thirty four states where Tom's FL reciprocity is welcome had some representation in that, and still do. But the D.C. voters, their elected representatives, and their circuit court are on record as having opposed the Judge's action.

 

 

Other differences:

--The states that deny FL's threshold of reciprocity now have upper courts which back them up. D.C. no longer does.

--D.C. is the nation's capital, and hosts international political figures. These other states don't host world leaders.

Any common idiot thinking like Tom Ray, from any state, can pack a loaded weapon there?

 

Note: 31 of the 34 states which Tom refers to allow open carry without a permit or license. These states, as a rule, have relatively weak state gun laws, and high violence stats. Many have ALEC-infested legislatures.(Note: Tom can find exceptions, I'm sure, but cannot maintain the opposite POV, that the states are generally safer, or that they contain little ALEC-written state law.) It's not just that they have a poor threshold for CCP: THEY HAVE NONE.

 

 

 

A review of a cliffhanger:

Scullin's decision in Palmer reflected the ninth circuit's Peruta decision in San Diego.

 

A ruling in February from a three-judge panel of the 9th Circuit Court of Appealschanged the equation. The majority opinion struck down San Diego County's restrictions as a violation of Second Amendment rights.

"The Second Amendment does require that the states permit some form of carry for self-defense outside the home," the panel said. "States may not destroy the right to bear arms in public under the guise of regulating it.

"http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/05/supreme-court-guns-public/7884041/

 

 

The pattern of these decisions is disturbing, of course, unless one wants unvetted but legal guns in all public spaces.

 

But fourteen months ago, the Supreme Court had a chance to give the green light to outdoor gun packers, in Drake v. Jerejian.

The NRA had this to say in Drake:

 

 

"The Second Amendment guarantees the right to carry weapons for the purpose of self-defense — not just for self-defense within the home, but for self-defense, period," the NRA argued in its brief to the high court.

 

Significantly, the SC declined to hear the case. To be continued.

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

So is DC really "only jurisdiction in the USA where out of state citizens can drive around with loaded guns in vehicles." or was that BS?

 

Seems to me the dozens of states in which my permit is good point to that statement being BS.

[jocal505 126]

So is DC really "only jurisdiction in the USA where out of state citizens can drive around with loaded guns in vehicles." or was that BS?

 

Seems to me the dozens of states in which my permit is good point to that statement being BS.

 

I cheerfully accept your clarification. And I stand corrected. Thanks, Tom.

 

What I intended to say (to counter your frequent, blanket hyperbole about "our gun rights"), was that under federal authority, DC is the "only jurisdiction in the USA where out of state citizens can drive around with loaded guns in vehicles."

 

 

 

Would you mind correcting this statement? If not, it might start following you around.

 

Tom Ray Posted 16 February 2015 - 06:08 PM

Gun control doesn't decrease homicide rates...

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=163765>

[spankoka 119]

The open carry thing didn't work out very well for this guy. How come these guys invariably have AR-15s? It's as if they don't believe in diversity or something. If I could walk around with a carbine I would go with a Winchester 1892 or a M1.

 

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-toting-assault-rifle-at-north-carolina-mall-is-army-sergeant/

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

 

 

I love those platitudes.............so okay Jeb...........what would that be? Wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first. You've been in public service your adult life, governor of a big complex state and you offer me........."we better figure out".

 

Next................

 

Even what he said was going out on a limb. Way out. Anything beyond the standard "victims and families are in my prayers" is political suicide (with the statistics not counting in gun violence stats!)

 

I don't think his position is all that unreasonable. It mirrors mine. But if 20 dead tots in CT were not going to provide the impetus for trying to make it harder for people who think that mass murder is acceptable behavior to acquire the tools with which to accomplish their task, this sure as hell isn't going to do it. There's too much money at stake.

 

What'll it cost, man, what'll it cost?

 

Asking for a specific plan and asking about who would pay and how are very bad things.

 

Sometimes.

 

 

 

What course of action do you advocate and how do you propose to pay for it?

 

 

 

Can't spell out answers in this thread, can you? I still don't know which "tools" you were talking about.

[jocal505 126]

I still don't know which "tools" you were talking about.

 

 

Whatever they are, you will fight them. For guns.

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

 

I still don't know which "tools" you were talking about.

 

 

Whatever they are, you will fight them. For guns.

 

 

The mystery deepens.

 

Has anyone else noticed that jocal seems singularly focused on guns and never posts on other issues? People seem to notice that about me, even though it's not true and is just a result of their failure to click. I guess I'm the first one to notice that about jocal? Maybe we need a thread?

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

An outstanding cartoon illustrating unspecified tool control.

 

 

 

 

[jocal505 126]

 

 

I still don't know which "tools" you were talking about.

 

 

Whatever they are, you will fight them. For guns.

 

 

The mystery deepens.

 

Has anyone else noticed that jocal seems singularly focused on guns and never posts on other issues? People seem to notice that about me, even though it's not true and is just a result of their failure to click. I guess I'm the first one to notice that about jocal? Maybe we need a thread?

 

 

I can discuss sailing boats, but not flying planes...so I hang with sailors, and don't contribute to pilot discussions.

As stated elsewhere, I am not a political person, as such. I have little to contribute to politics.

 

I care about guns, and the gun issue, so I read up on it quite a bit...on both sides of the issue.

I found substance on one side, but vapor on the other.

The politics and history of the gun issue has been an interesting (and very disappointing) study.

Tom, you have been an evasive failure debating U.S. gun violence.

 

"Singular focus"? Race relations are something else I have paid my dues to understand. You and I have tangled a bit on that political issue, and may tangle again.

[jocal505 126]

Time for you to back up your statement. Is this just an opinion? Or can you source it?

My fourth request, over five months of evasion:

 

Tom Ray Posted 16 February 2015 - 06:08 PM

Gun control doesn't decrease homicide rates...

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=163765>

 

This one is another TR Lulu. Back it up, pal.

 

(Tom Ray:) Crime causes gun control but gun control does not affect crime.

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

Three attempted murder charges added to the list of indictments for Mr. Roof's unhealthy speech in the Charleston church kerfluffle.

 

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/17/8802547/mass-shooting-emmanuel-charleston-sc

 

ps: Guns.

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

Three attempted murder charges added to the list of indictments for Mr. Roof's unhealthy speech in the Charleston church kerfluffle.

 

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/17/8802547/mass-shooting-emmanuel-charleston-sc

 

ps: Guns.

 

From the linked USA Today article:

 

Roof has already been charged by state warrants with the murder counts and possessing a weapon during commission of violent crime. The attempted murder charges are new and relate to three victims who survived the attack, Solicitor Scarlett Wilson said in a statement.

 

 

A weapons charge? I wonder what kind of weapon?

 

ps: tools

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

Mistakes by government led to the murderer passing a background check he should have failed

 

ps: tools

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

Was Dylann Roof right to do what he did, Tom, or was he wrong?

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

Was Dylann Roof right to do what he did, Tom, or was he wrong?

 

I've always been a huge fan of slaughtering innocent people because of their race. Surprised you have to ask!

 

ps: tools

[Olsonist 1,122]

I always thought you were indifferent.

[Raz'r 1,732]

Price of our freedom

[Hard On The Wind 266]

Freedom isn't free?

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

Price of our freedom

 

Some countries with much less tool freedom seem to pay more per capita. Check out Norway, Finland and Switzerland.

 

 

 

I am also curious about the purported falsehood contained within Obama's statement "But let’s be clear: At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries. It doesn’t happen in other places with this kind of frequency."

 

Did he mis-state something here? Are there other 'advanced countries' where the incidence (frequency) of 'mass violence' is higher?

 

Are there any where it does not happen or did you miss that part of his statement?

 

As for frequency, when you adjust for population by looking at the rate, it looks like this according to Politico.

 

 

So Obama is right, we don't see it with that kind of frequency, we see a lower frequency, but that's not what he was trying to imply.

 

 

Pointing this out and resisting calls for unspecified tool control in response to incidents like these means I like murder, am a terrible racist, probably an Aryan Nations associate, etc, etc. Just about the worst possible messenger.

ps: tools

 

[Olsonist 1,122]

Tom, do you clean and lubricate your tool regularly?

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

Apparently the judge didn't get the memo about young Mr Roof being crazy. Competent to stand trial. So he knew what he was saying with those angry lead words. Just a racist, not a nutter.

 

Ps: guns.

[Saorsa 192]

Apparently the judge didn't get the memo about young Mr Roof being crazy. Competent to stand trial. So he knew what he was saying with those angry lead words. Just a racist, not a nutter.

 

Ps: guns.

 

I saw his picture in the Golds shirt. That little runt didn't have any guns.

[GRUMPY 49]

Anybody that can cold heatedly kill 9 innocent people is a nutter.

[jocal505 126]

Dylann Roof found online camaraderie and support, to validate and nurture his post-Trayvon beliefs.

McVeigh had the travelling gun show community.

Free speech takes a village.

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

An outstanding cartoon illustrating unspecified tool control.

 

 

 

 

 

A little more clarity on unspecified tools emerges!

 

 

"Tools" does not mean guns. Guns are guns, and tools are tools. The words are not interchangeable, except in a pro-gun pretend world.

 

 

 

[Guest]

A little more clarity on unspecified tools emerges!

 

 

"Tools" does not mean guns. Guns are guns, and tools are tools. The words are not interchangeable, except in a pro-gun pretend world.

 

 

 

OMG!

 

There are days I think that neural researchers are lining up around the corner to wait to study his brain once he kicks the bucket. Because that is one convoluted piece of brain matter right there. Too bad we couldn't just remove it now and send it to the research labs...... I doubt jocal will miss it.

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

I see Charleston in a very good light over this. A racist from out of town came to Charleston because of the town's race relations, and tried to disrupt them by entering a historic black church and s-h-o-o-t-i-n-g nine people he found to be nice in person, but still had to s-h-o-o-t, because they were black. He sought to sow discord, but what he accomplished instead was letting the world see the town and state coming together not in battle, but in accord, and working to remove elements of a troubled past from the state house, where that flag does not belong. I am pretty damned impressed by Charleston's response to this.

 

If the kid wanted riots, he should have done it in NYC.

 

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

Do you think the murderer should have been on a secret list for secret reasons and thus denied the right to purchase tools, Sol? It's hard to tell.

[Raz'r 1,732]

Do you think the murderer should have been on a secret list for secret reasons and thus denied the right to purchase tools, Sol? It's hard to tell.

 

 

Was he a vet?

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

 

So, what other screen names were used by White Cracker?

"Myra"? I think not.

 

 

Myra. Still inconvenient.

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

 

 

So, what other screen names were used by White Cracker?

"Myra"? I think not.

 

 

Myra. Still inconvenient.

 

 

On the contrary. People who want to limit access to tools still find her and all the rest very convenient. It's disgusting.

[Mismoyled Jiblet. 1,621]

Do you think the murderer should have been on a secret list for secret reasons and thus denied the right to purchase tools, Sol? It's hard to tell.

 

Where the fuck were you 15 years ago asshole?

[Raz'r 1,732]

 

Do you think the murderer should have been on a secret list for secret reasons and thus denied the right to purchase tools, Sol? It's hard to tell.

 

Where the fuck were you 15 years ago asshole?

 

 

 

I'm not a big fan of Tom "Bang Bang" Ray - but he was against the patriot act

[jocal505 126]

Tom, there's quite a span between tragedy and convenience.

What is wrong with you? You sound desensitized, almost sociopathic.

These gun violence victims are the fabric of closed registries you fool

[Mismoyled Jiblet. 1,621]

 

 

Do you think the murderer should have been on a secret list for secret reasons and thus denied the right to purchase tools, Sol? It's hard to tell.

 

Where the fuck were you 15 years ago asshole?

 

 

 

I'm not a big fan of Tom "Bang Bang" Ray - but he was against the patriot act

 

 

so were plenty of people, including me. that doesn't give him some great moral leg to stand on.

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

 

Rev. Middleton-Doctor. Still Inconvenient.

[Guest]

Inconvenient for who? For in-bred, southern, white supremacist racists? Yes, very inconvenient.

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

Inconvenient for who? For in-bred, southern, white supremacist racists? Yes, very inconvenient.

 

And still very convenient for those who want to limit access to tools. As Eva Dent.

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

Ethel Lance. Still inconvenient.

 

[GRUMPY 49]

You're posting cartoons Sol. Can you get to whatever point it is you're trying not to make?

 

Spit it out young feller, go on.

[jocal505 126]

You have to ask, Grumpster? Do you think we're better off with these fine people gone?

It's been a year, what have you and I learned?

[GRUMPY 49]

Yeah, here on this board I do have to ask. Why do you need to interject? Sol's a big boy.

 

Let's see.

[jocal505 126]

You evidently can't see. Sol has posted such posters a dozen times, with and without his own comments.

I got the answer to your question on the first poster.

 

Sorry for the interjection. Sol will add a comment any old time he chooses to...but his poignant statement has already been made.

[jocal505 126]

 

Inconvenient for who? For in-bred, southern, white supremacist racists? Yes, very inconvenient.

 

And still very convenient for those who want to limit access to tools. As Eva Dent.

 

 

Tom "Bang Bang" Ray wants to post about tools tools tools.

More snake in the grass, eh?

Because what he actually means is guns guns guns.

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

Inconvenient for who? For in-bred, southern, white supremacist racists? Yes, very inconvenient.

For those who want to change topics, Rev. Pinckney is decidedly inconvenient, even in death. He had rights too. Had. Very inconvenient. And yeah, for in-bred, southern, white supremacist racists, he is inconvenient as well. Dylann Roof advocated denying second amendment rights more than anyone here ever has. He actually took away people's rights.

 

[d'ranger 1,679]

There is a Ray of Hope: David Duke is going to run again http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/kkk-leader-david-duke-plans-run-us-senate-40802984

 

"I'm proud to announce my candidacy for the United States Senate," Duke said in a video. "I believe in equal rights for all and respect for all Americans. However, what makes me different is I also demand respect for the rights and heritage of European Americans."

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

 

 

Inconvenient for who? For in-bred, southern, white supremacist racists? Yes, very inconvenient.

 

And still very convenient for those who want to limit access to tools. As Eva Dent.

 

 

Tom "Bang Bang" Ray Troll Rosenburg wants to post about tools tools tools.

More snake in the grass, eh?

Because what he actually means is guns guns guns.

 

 

Fixerated. I can say what I mean. I also have a bit of fun mocking those who can't.

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

Cynthia Hurd would have been popular here, at least until folks found out the color of her skin. As a librarian, she was quite likely used to people asking questions and disregarding the answer, only to ask it again. She likely helped anyway, because she liked to help.

 

She is also inconvenient.

 

The beautiful thing about Stites Rats is that they are just strong enough to make an argument for protecting the God Given Rat to deny rats to the nigras, but not strong enough to prevent Good Americans from getting the tools to shoot em dead! STITES RATS!

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

How do we know she would actually answer questions instead of just imagining that she answered like you do, Sol?

 

If you really had a problem with disregarding due process, you probably would have noticed the effort to do so in the Occupy Congress thread. But you didn't.

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

Susie might not have had any animosity toward anyone, but she sure is inconvenient.

 

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

... If I have to continue to experience the uncomfortable feeling of hearing about another crazy bastard shooting a group of people to death, then I will make damn sure that the propagandists that make it impossible to discuss making it harder for crazies to get the tools to complete their task feel the maximum amount of discomfort and inconvenience from each such incident, most often by trying to put faces to the numbers, however inconvenient to our resident propagandist those faces may be.

 

Do you have some proposal for "making it harder for crazies to get the tools" that you'd like to discuss?

 

You seem to want to post those pictures to further that goal. Someone...

 

...wants to post about tools tools tools.

More snake in the grass, eh?

Because what he actually means is guns guns guns.

 

 

Go ahead. Let's hear a SOLution.

 

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

Tywanza was known for imagining other people's positions on issues, and arguing against them. But a lot of people liked him anyway. He is still inconvenient, even a year after young Mr. Roof spouted out his angry high velocity diatribe.

 

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

Would a burst of five pictures in a row make discussing limiting access to tools convenient? How many dead people must be exploited before you get to a SOLution that properly limits access to tools?

[jocal505 126]

Any wisdom in equating guns to tools escapes me.

 

Even as a weapon, the gun simply has no equal. It's very unique as weapons go.

 

Generally, tools are a different animal than guns.

Don't ask me how I know, but tools have an entire scale of danger. As tools go, the damage capability of guns is off the charts of common inanimate tool danger.

Guns cannot be equated to tools, but sure, guns can be used as a tool.

But when a tool in "defenssive" action they are a lever for violence, for an act so violent it is a reason for future violence.

 

Tools as a cutesy term for killing machines? Cut the illusion, let's call these things what they are.

They're fucking guns, and they carry the danger of guns, and must be respected and dealt with as guns.

They are a world of their own. "Tools" does not express that world, sorry.

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

Sharonda was always smiling. Now she is dead by the hand of someone who disapproved of her skin color and chose to exercise his first amendment rights to speak with some very angry lead words. I think that what Dylann Roof did to her was wrong.

 

[Guest]

Any wisdom in equating guns to tools escapes me.

 

Even as a weapon, the gun simply has no equal. It's very unique as weapons go.

 

Generally, tools are a different animal than guns.

Don't ask me how I know, but tools have an entire scale of danger. As tools go, the damage capability of guns is off the charts of common inanimate tool danger.

Guns cannot be equated to tools, but sure, guns can be used as a tool.

 

 

You mean like the difference between the capability of trucks driven through crowds used as a tool of death vs an assault rifle used as a tool of death? Seems like the truck tool far exceeds the capability of the rifle tool given that the truck killed 80+ in just a minute or two and the assault rifle tool could only kill 49 over the span of 3-4 hours. The rifle seems very inefficient by comparison.

 

As sol would say, that's very inconvenient.

[Plenipotentiary Tom 1,150]

... I think that what Dylann Roof did to her was wrong.

 

 

 

Wrong enough to merit a SOLution involving limiting access to tools?

 

I kind of agree with jocal's post above. Can we go back to calling "limiting access to tools" by the less-clumsy and more comon phrase "gun control" yet?

[Sol Rosenberg 3,587]

Dylann thought that black people needed to have their Second Amendment (and all other) rights taken away, to prevent them from raping our women. So he killed all of the people identified above, despite finding them to be nice.

 

Some folks just do not want to stand up for everyone's Second Amendment rights by condemning Dylann's actions.