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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
dachopper

Sydney to Hobart 2016

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Concept Yachts South listed as the builder for the Simons Voogd-Bakewell White boat TBA.?

 

Maybe that's why I couldn't see anything, my info was a different yard.

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Concept Yachts South listed as the builder for the Simons Voogd-Bakewell White boat TBA.?

 

Maybe that's why I couldn't see anything, my info was a different yard, or is this a new build.

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Assuming the outriggers on the Frankinboat are for a wing mast, how does IRC treat that kind of rig? Other option is its a Tri by stealth, deploy the ormas!

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Does he have time to make the start..?

 

From Bakewell White: "Breaking cover for the first time.............our 98ft maxi leaves the yard at Southern Ocean Boats in Tauranga New Zealand, and heading for a launching in a couple of days time.

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14963204_1517622124921084_24668130441259

 

From Bakewell-White Yacht Design's Facebook page

Kudos for being brave and pushing the innovation envelope, note DSS foil slot. The chances of this being worked up and reliable for S2H in 7 weeks time? Low to zero.

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14963204_1517622124921084_24668130441259

 

From Bakewell-White Yacht Design's Facebook page

Kudos for being brave and pushing the innovation envelope, note DSS foil slot. The chances of this being worked up and reliable for S2H in 7 weeks time? Low to zero.

 

 

Ludde Ingvall will need a massive team to manage this for this years Hobart, don't see it being ready, but kudos for another supermaxi, something with the potential to beat Oats

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14963204_1517622124921084_24668130441259

 

From Bakewell-White Yacht Design's Facebook page

 

Kudos for being brave and pushing the innovation envelope, note DSS foil slot. The chances of this being worked up and reliable for S2H in 7 weeks time? Low to zero.

Where is the DSS slot? Is it the black square aft of the chainplates?

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If you're going to announce and uncover something so different from what we've seen in the past, why would you have it sailing 2-3 weeks after the most prominent race in the Southern Hemisphere? Wouldn't it be a goal to have it ready for S2H? Even if it's not as competitive as you'd like it to be, you have to make the starting line.

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Making the line this year and not winning line honors is a lot different than launching in January and not winning line honors in 2017.

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Training wheels. ;)

 

Looks like rule driven design. Via FB comments: "Bakewell-White Yacht Design: You have to hang the Chainplates on something"

So "not a deck spreader" deck spreader. *g*

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note DSS foil slot.

 

 

 

Uh. Oh. D.L. cumin in 10, 9, 8,,,,,,,,,,

 

Damn! Sorry about that...

 

 

 

...c'mon,,, yer should know by now that ANY reference to certain features will bring on th' FukwiT like nothin. :mellow:

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Training wheels. ;)

 

Looks like rule driven design. Via FB comments: "Bakewell-White Yacht Design: You have to hang the Chainplates on something"

So "not a deck spreader" deck spreader. *g*

Does it count towards maximum beam then?

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If they are deck spreaders for a wing mast, why build those heinous outrigger pod things and not just run proven deck spreaders?

The deck spreaders are quite famous for catching stuff and getting damaged in the IMOCA fleet. They have ended several VG AFAIK.

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If they are deck spreaders for a wing mast, why build those heinous outrigger pod things and not just run proven deck spreaders?

The deck spreaders are quite famous for catching stuff and getting damaged in the IMOCA fleet. They have ended several VG AFAIK.

 

 

The IMOCA ones are all cable braced and the cable itself is low on the hull for the attachment and hence is vulnerable to passing objects.

Brett has borrowed the idea for solid deck wings from the fully researched 100 I did way back as enc pic.12742513_1251619268198007_18682489708113

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If they are deck spreaders for a wing mast, why build those heinous outrigger pod things and not just run proven deck spreaders?

 

The deck spreaders are quite famous for catching stuff and getting damaged in the IMOCA fleet. They have ended several VG AFAIK.

The IMOCA ones are all cable braced and the cable itself is low on the hull for the attachment and hence is vulnerable to passing objects.

Brett has borrowed the idea for solid deck wings from the fully researched 100 I did way back as enc pic.12742513_1251619268198007_18682489708113

That's nice of BBW to 'borrow' those ideas from you. He will give them back if they don't work I imagine.

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Hugh could you tell us if it is really a dss slot in the photo or just an exit for twin daggerboards?

 

 

 

...before you do that,, maybe it's best to come up with some other key terms for some of those 'features' ;)

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note DSS foil slot.

 

 

Uh. Oh. D.L. cumin in 10, 9, 8,,,,,,,,,,

Damn! Sorry about that...

 

...c'mon,,, yer should know by now that ANY reference to certain features will bring on th' FukwiT like nothin. :mellow:

My bad...

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14963204_1517622124921084_24668130441259

 

From Bakewell-White Yacht Design's Facebook page

Got a little Hugo Boss style going on with the bow/deck sheer line. Looks different that's for sure.

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Using the original mast... Let's see how that works out, 100 footer with a 90 footer rig? Masses more RM compressing the same tube? The wings will reduce mast compression over what it might have been otherwise, but you really hope they've got the load case assumptions right.

 

Brave stuff, and I hope Ludde's historic minimal budget approach doesn't cruel what might otherwise be a very exciting boat.

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Well

 

 

Using the original mast... Let's see how that works out, 100 footer with a 90 footer rig? Masses more RM compressing the same tube? The wings will reduce mast compression over what it might have been otherwise, but you really hope they've got the load case assumptions right.

 

Brave stuff, and I hope Ludde's historic minimal budget approach doesn't cruel what might otherwise be a very exciting boat.

 

 

Well it's more exciting than the usual WO cut n shunt this time of year.

Think they're in the same position C was in 2015, short time line etc, although very interesting.

It has sat in Tau for a loong, loong time.

Does the canard rotate on WO?

 

yandy159564.jpgyandy159566.jpg

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One rudder :huh:

Looks like a 98ft sports boat...

We shall see!!

 

looks like the stern is narrow enough to not need two rudders, WOXI on has one rudder aft.

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One rudder :huh:

Looks like a 98ft sports boat...

We shall see!!

 

looks like the stern is narrow enough to not need two rudders, WOXI on has one rudder aft.

 

Fair enough!

Still looks like a sports boat with that "flare" at the back.

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Maybe it is a new rig?

 

 

"The spars for the remodelled supermaxi are coming from Hall Spars & Rigging NZ"

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14963204_1517622124921084_24668130441259

 

From Bakewell-White Yacht Design's Facebook page

Kudos for being brave and pushing the innovation envelope, note DSS foil slot. The chances of this being worked up and reliable for S2H in 7 weeks time? Low to zero.

 

 

I like!!!!

 

Great to see someone trying new things and disturb the status quo. Hope they make it to the line in time and give this race a real good shake up. Look forward to see them there.

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One rudder :huh:

Looks like a 98ft sports boat...

We shall see!!

looks like the stern is narrow enough to not need two rudders, WOXI on has one rudder aft.

Fair enough!

Still looks like a sports boat with that "flare" at the back.

Agreed. It looks odd with only one rudder, and that rudder looks pretty small.

 

What's the benefit of such a narrow transom with wings?

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The shape of the bottom looks so different from what we expect to see nowadays. I hope it goes well for them, the narrow stern might let the bow come up downwind.

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would love to think they'll be legitimate competitors in the S2H, but it's what? 6 and a bit weeks weeks from start and they're not even in the water yet?

best of luck.

 

exciting to have a new player

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would love to think they'll be legitimate competitors in the S2H, but it's what? 6 and a bit weeks weeks from start and they're not even in the water yet?

best of luck.

 

exciting to have a new player

 

Let's see how they do in Round White Island Race later this month. If they make it around, they could indeed be contenders for S2H.

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The problem with the original Voogd design was she was quite a narrow boat and when you want to generate more power you need righting moment to match, the DSS is necessary. Interesting that Oats discarded theirs also being a narrow boat. The other extreme being Comanche uses beam and we have witnessed her results. The original Nicorette was no world breaker so great to see something come from an old racing boat, the narrow design has forced the designers into this corner. The mast shroud wings face upward so they shouldn't come into contact with the water.

 

http://www.sail-world.com/australia/Round-the-World-racer-rolls-out-Supermaxi-conversion-in-Tauranga/149496

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Narrow boat, single rudder, placed pretty forward. No aeration, and right where you want it.

 

You steer the boat with sail-trim. It's a fully crewed race, not solo, so trimmers have a load of dynamic input on the direction, without needing autopilot to do it.

 

Ever race a 12 meter? Mainsheet trimmer is pretty well steering it.

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The problem with the original Voogd design was she was quite a narrow boat and when you want to generate more power you need righting moment to match, the DSS is necessary. Interesting that Oats discarded theirs also being a narrow boat. The other extreme being Comanche uses beam and we have witnessed her results. The original Nicorette was no world breaker so great to see something come from an old racing boat, the narrow design has forced the designers into this corner. The mast shroud wings face upward so they shouldn't come into contact with the water.

 

http://www.sail-world.com/australia/Round-the-World-racer-rolls-out-Supermaxi-conversion-in-Tauranga/149496

 

interesting solution to the problem of getting a wider shroud triangle and only having so much beam. I remember when roy disney did his "turbo" job on the maxi 86 pyewacket with the big rig and the wings, people that sailed the boat with that very tall rig with a very narrow shroud triangle said it made folks very nervous

 

speaking of, anybody know what ever happened to that thing?

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The problem with the original Voogd design was she was quite a narrow boat and when you want to generate more power you need righting moment to match, the DSS is necessary. Interesting that Oats discarded theirs also being a narrow boat. The other extreme being Comanche uses beam and we have witnessed her results. The original Nicorette was no world breaker so great to see something come from an old racing boat, the narrow design has forced the designers into this corner. The mast shroud wings face upward so they shouldn't come into contact with the water.

 

http://www.sail-world.com/australia/Round-the-World-racer-rolls-out-Supermaxi-conversion-in-Tauranga/149496

WOXI was using copy DSS to keep the bow out, they didn't need the RM. I suspect the drag & weight was too big of a trade off for them to keep. Don't laugh - maybe a bit of rating too?

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Those 'struts' look like they could be dragging in the water a fair amount with any sort of heel

 

I reckon all the brains involved in this project just might have thought about that and little more besides.

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The problem with the original Voogd design was she was quite a narrow boat and when you want to generate more power you need righting moment to match, the DSS is necessary. Interesting that Oats discarded theirs also being a narrow boat. The other extreme being Comanche uses beam and we have witnessed her results. The original Nicorette was no world breaker so great to see something come from an old racing boat, the narrow design has forced the designers into this corner. The mast shroud wings face upward so they shouldn't come into contact with the water.

 

http://www.sail-world.com/australia/Round-the-World-racer-rolls-out-Supermaxi-conversion-in-Tauranga/149496

WOXI was using copy DSS to keep the bow out, they didn't need the RM. I suspect the drag & weight was too big of a trade off for them to keep. Don't laugh - maybe a bit of rating too?

 

 

Re Oats, The new forward section has negated the need for DSS and a weight saving of 380KG apparently. For this boat Bakewell White says that the original boat looked like a DSS boat without the DSS. Huge fore triangle with this boat and some impressive sheeting angles according to Brett Bakewell, so another interesting addition to the 100' foot class, although she is 98 to be specific. Could have built a new hull rather than take this route like Ragamuffin 100, so the designers felt this was the best. Will be interested to see who Ludde has in his crew to get this thing going? Working against the odds to make the Hobart but great to see another player, we just need Loyal to stay in the race this year so we can gauge the speeds between the varying designs. Like Oats the extra 8 feet added was forward of the mast.

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The problem with the original Voogd design was she was quite a narrow boat and when you want to generate more power you need righting moment to match, the DSS is necessary. Interesting that Oats discarded theirs also being a narrow boat. The other extreme being Comanche uses beam and we have witnessed her results. The original Nicorette was no world breaker so great to see something come from an old racing boat, the narrow design has forced the designers into this corner. The mast shroud wings face upward so they shouldn't come into contact with the water.

 

http://www.sail-world.com/australia/Round-the-World-racer-rolls-out-Supermaxi-conversion-in-Tauranga/149496

WOXI was using copy DSS to keep the bow out, they didn't need the RM. I suspect the drag & weight was too big of a trade off for them to keep. Don't laugh - maybe a bit of rating too?

 

 

Re Oats, The new forward section has negated the need for DSS and a weight saving of 380KG apparently. For this boat Bakewell White says that the original boat looked like a DSS boat without the DSS. Huge fore triangle with this boat and some impressive sheeting angles according to Brett Bakewell, so another interesting addition to the 100' foot class, although she is 98 to be specific. Could have built a new hull rather than take this route like Ragamuffin 100, so the designers felt this was the best. Will be interested to see who Ludde has in his crew to get this thing going? Working against the odds to make the Hobart but great to see another player, we just need Loyal to stay in the race this year so we can gauge the speeds between the varying designs. Like Oats the extra 8 feet added was forward of the mast.

 

 

Loyal shows glimpses of potential, but.....

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Current potential is for it to be cut up & binned from what I heard last week

Should offer Ludde the rig at a discount. Then he can cut the stupid wings off the boat.

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Pyewacker was finally sold to Pong (?) in HK, rumor was he just wanted the mast, as all the spar builders were committed for quite a while. Very soon thereafter he wanted to give it back to the college but they had had enuff of storing her. So it's out there somewhere.

 

In one of the linked articles, the original mast with the much longer spreaders will be OK with the new hull.

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Current potential is for it to be cut up & binned from what I heard last week

Should offer Ludde the rig at a discount. Then he can cut the stupid wings off the boat.

Someone should use Loyal as a donor for a rambler88 hull.

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One rudder :huh:

Looks like a 98ft sports boat...

We shall see!!

 

looks like the stern is narrow enough to not need two rudders, WOXI on has one rudder aft.

 

And as a DSS boat it will sail at lower heel angles than Comanche et al

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One rudder :huh:

Looks like a 98ft sports boat...

We shall see!!

looks like the stern is narrow enough to not need two rudders, WOXI on has one rudder aft.

Fair enough!

Still looks like a sports boat with that "flare" at the back.

Agreed. It looks odd with only one rudder, and that rudder looks pretty small.

 

What's the benefit of such a narrow transom with wings?

 

Low wetted surface, the boat ought to sail pretty flat most of the time reaching nd DW, upwind one rodder is fine. Wings get crew weight outboard and broaden sheeting angles for Code Zero

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Can see the rudder snapping off with the load the "reverse V foils will put on it at heel when the bow is out at speed. Maybe ventilation / cavitation problems at best.

But i'm not a naval architect. It's exciting to see how it goes.

 

Would love to see Beau Guest 80 and Rambler 88 come back and face off one day. With all the 100 footers on the start line too.

So many out there but so hard to get them all on the start line at the same time.

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The problem with the original Voogd design was she was quite a narrow boat and when you want to generate more power you need righting moment to match, the DSS is necessary. Interesting that Oats discarded theirs also being a narrow boat. The other extreme being Comanche uses beam and we have witnessed her results. The original Nicorette was no world breaker so great to see something come from an old racing boat, the narrow design has forced the designers into this corner. The mast shroud wings face upward so they shouldn't come into contact with the water.

 

http://www.sail-world.com/australia/Round-the-World-racer-rolls-out-Supermaxi-conversion-in-Tauranga/149496

 

Still sitting in Portland Maine frank pong owns it still . Tried to buy it 4 years ago but wouldn't sell. Ironically he emailed 2 months ago and will tale 400,000

 

interesting solution to the problem of getting a wider shroud triangle and only having so much beam. I remember when roy disney did his "turbo" job on the maxi 86 pyewacket with the big rig and the wings, people that sailed the boat with that very tall rig with a very narrow shroud triangle said it made folks very nervous

 

speaking of, anybody know what ever happened to that thing?

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Jake don't think you will see BG80 in a S2H...she would get spat out the back.

 

Jack not like you to make a mistake like that? WTF? BG is going for sure. She will be snapping at the heals and could surprise

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Current potential is for it to be cut up & binned from what I heard last week

 

That was last month's potential. And the month before that. And... pretty much every month since December 2014's retirement from Hobart.

 

Last I heard (2 days ago) the object is to get that boat across the finish line off Battery Point. It may not be pretty, or fast, but the boys are on a mission (from God).

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But his cousin might!

 

The #1 rule is "Don't do business with friends or family."

 

There's still time for this to all go tits up! Especially if his cousin can buy $1.4 billion worth of lawyers...

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Pretty flat.

 

Large_14940199_10155400484139746_6075389

 

so I'm no naval architect - or even a talented amateur, but surely that pinched stern doesn't match the powerful mid-sections (plus lifting foil) - doesn't look like it'll get up and boogy like it would with straight lines aft.

 

Maybe it'll have nice low wetted area heeled for the light stuff?

 

Basically - I don't get the hull shape.

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Pretty flat.

 

Large_14940199_10155400484139746_6075389

so I'm no naval architect - or even a talented amateur, but surely that pinched stern doesn't match the powerful mid-sections (plus lifting foil) - doesn't look like it'll get up and boogy like it would with straight lines aft.

 

Maybe it'll have nice low wetted area heeled for the light stuff?

 

Basically - I don't get the hull shape.

You're not alone.

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Can see the rudder snapping off with the load the "reverse V foils will put on it at heel when the bow is out at speed. Maybe ventilation / cavitation problems at best.

But i'm not a naval architect. It's exciting to see how it goes.

 

Would love to see Beau Guest 80 and Rambler 88 come back and face off one day. With all the 100 footers on the start line too.

So many out there but so hard to get them all on the start line at the same time.

Beau Geste and Rambler don't belong in the same sentence. The former will be horizoned before the sun goes down on Boxing Day, while the latter has already proven she can hang with the big boys all the way to the Derwent River.

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Pretty flat.

 

Large_14940199_10155400484139746_6075389

so I'm no naval architect - or even a talented amateur, but surely that pinched stern doesn't match the powerful mid-sections (plus lifting foil) - doesn't look like it'll get up and boogy like it would with straight lines aft.

 

Maybe it'll have nice low wetted area heeled for the light stuff?

 

Basically - I don't get the hull shape.

You're not alone.

Isn't that the whole point of DSS?

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Pretty flat.

 

Large_14940199_10155400484139746_6075389

so I'm no naval architect - or even a talented amateur, but surely that pinched stern doesn't match the powerful mid-sections (plus lifting foil) - doesn't look like it'll get up and boogy like it would with straight lines aft.

 

Maybe it'll have nice low wetted area heeled for the light stuff?

 

Basically - I don't get the hull shape.

You're not alone.

 

I guess they were stuck with it as the rear half is largely part of the old boat but at speed there are all sorts of oddball dynamics that kick in with fat sterns, drag, nose-down trim etc. DSS lifting the boat no doubt makes a difference too. Leave it to the experts...

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the way I see it - DSS and canting keel would be like sailing a dinghy. Sail it flat, center of flotation moves aft (dinghy with weight, DSS with foil), lift off he mid sections when sending it.

 

I don't see any fast planing dinghies with pinched sterns.

 

Will be interesting to see.

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You wouldn't concentrate weight over the pinched stern of a dinghy though, so that isn't the best comparison.

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Interesting. I posted a picture last year comparing WOXI, Comanche and a new boat that was comparatively very narrow, minimizing wetted surface and that replaced form stability (big butt) with DSS. It was off but along the lines of this boat. It seems as that the more these foils are optimized, the narrower the boat.

 

post-81201-0-97055500-1478532917_thumb.jpg

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Interesting. I posted a picture last year comparing WOXI, Comanche and a new boat that was comparatively very narrow, minimizing wetted surface and that replaced form stability (big butt) with DSS. It was off but along the lines of this boat. It seems as that the more these foils are optimized, the narrower the boat.

 

whats old becomes new again apparently.

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